Speaker 1: Hello everyone.
Speaker 2: It's just me James again today and I'm joined by
Speaker 2: Ruth Kinner who's going to introduce herself shortly. And we're
Speaker 2: discussing the concept of mutual aid and trying to sort
Speaker 2: of cast that in a broader perspective. We talk a
Speaker 2: lot about mutual aid, but we don't talk often about
Speaker 2: what it is and what it means and how it's
Speaker 2: been happening for a very long time. So Ruth, would
Speaker 2: you like to introduce yourself and tell it tone that
Speaker 2: you think it's relevant.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, James.
Speaker 4: So my name is Ruth Kinner and i work at
Speaker 4: Lufber University in the UK. Lufber's halfway between Nottingham and
Speaker 4: Leicester in the East Midlands, and I'm a political theorist
Speaker 4: and historian of ideas and I specialize in anarchist political thought.
Speaker 4: And one of the people I've spent probably most time
Speaker 4: looking at is Peter Cropotkin, and I've written about crop
Speaker 4: Popkins's life and work. I'm also the editor of the
Speaker 4: journal Anarchist Studies and I'm a member love for University
Speaker 4: of the Anarchism Research Group I lovely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very very appropriate TV for this.
Speaker 2: And so can we start off by explaining because I
Speaker 2: think people hear mutual aids sort of thrown about a lot,
Speaker 2: and they know that it's people helping people, But what
Speaker 2: would you define it as.
Speaker 1: What would be a useful definition for people to work of.
Speaker 4: So mutual aid is about people helping people. But I
Speaker 4: think crop Popkin's argument, or you know, the way that
Speaker 4: anarchists tend to think about mutual aid is that it's
Speaker 4: a way of describing a relationship that can be encouraged
Speaker 4: or discouraged according to the ways in which we organize
Speaker 4: our social relationships. So mutual aid is a kind of
Speaker 4: a response that we all have two people when it's
Speaker 4: based on empathy, I guess. But it's something that we
Speaker 4: can dampen, I suppose if we divorce ourselves from from
Speaker 4: other people in our everyday lives, and particularly if we
Speaker 4: tend to think that people's well being is the concern
Speaker 4: of others rather than something which is a collective concern
Speaker 4: of all of us.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that it's really excellent because it's very easy,
Speaker 2: especially if you're living under sort of capitalism as it
Speaker 2: exists today, to divorce yourself from your empathy or I
Speaker 2: don't know responsibility is the right word, but to help
Speaker 2: other people.
Speaker 1: Can we see that all the time? And I think
Speaker 1: one area where we've seen that increasingly, certainly in the
Speaker 1: two countries that we're sitting in, is with this like
Speaker 1: just bizarre.
Speaker 2: I don't want to like pathologize it, but this just
Speaker 2: deeply untasteful lack of empathy for refugees and people seeking asilum.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to sort of start with the example
Speaker 2: of the lifeboats in the UK, because I think they're great.
Speaker 2: They pop up in a potkin, They've been around for
Speaker 2: very long time, and they were, at least when I
Speaker 2: was living in the UK, very charity institution that people supported.
Speaker 2: And can you explain a little bit about how they
Speaker 2: operate within that sort of mutual aid lens.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So the Lifeboat Association was prompted by it's called an
Speaker 4: Appeal to.
Speaker 3: The British Nation.
Speaker 4: It was published in eighteen twenty five by this guy
Speaker 4: called William Hillary, and what Hillary wanted to do was
Speaker 4: to support the foundation of a kind of national institution
Speaker 4: that was going to help the victims of shipwrecks. And
Speaker 4: he couched this project actually as quite a sort of
Speaker 4: nationalistic terms I suppose were in patriotic terms, as sort
Speaker 4: of part of the duty that British people would have
Speaker 4: as one of the great seafaring nations. But what it
Speaker 4: did was that it established the skeleton, if you like,
Speaker 4: or it produced the sort of the foundation for the
Speaker 4: Lifeboat Association, which is what we know now, which is
Speaker 4: basically a voluntary organization run by volunteers, funded by the public,
Speaker 4: with a remit to help anybody who is in distress
Speaker 4: at sea. And I guess although it was sort of
Speaker 4: the original idea of the Lifeboat Association came from this
Speaker 4: sort of rather patriotic seafaring tradition. Hillary's idea was that
Speaker 4: once you set up these organizations locally on the coast,
Speaker 4: then actually they could be replicated. So he did have
Speaker 4: a sort of internationalist perspective. He thought that these things
Speaker 4: would be would mushroom, you know, across the globe, and
Speaker 4: that we would have lifebreat associations everywhere. I'm not sure
Speaker 4: if that's true, but certainly the Lifeboat Association is still
Speaker 4: alive and well in the UK and it does exactly
Speaker 4: what he wanted it to do. It looks after people
Speaker 4: in distress at sea, without fear or favor, And it's
Speaker 4: an example of mutual aid, I guess, because the people
Speaker 4: who do this as volunteers are always putting themselves at
Speaker 4: risk of peril or drowning, if you like, in order
Speaker 4: to try and preserve the lives of others.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a very at least from my memory
Speaker 2: an institution. I've never really heard of anyone having negative
Speaker 2: opinions about lifeboats until relatively recently. Like there was always
Speaker 2: a lifeboat shaped thing that you could put money in,
Speaker 2: like a donation box, and people just.
Speaker 1: Put money in it, and no one was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't like the lifeboats. But recently, I suppose I've
Speaker 1: come under fire from Britain. First for.
Speaker 2: I think they would phrase it as like encouraging people
Speaker 2: to take the risk of traveling on small boats to
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom to claim asylum. And can you characterize
Speaker 2: I don't want you to characterize that attack because it's
Speaker 2: relatively easy to characterize and it's you know, it doesn't
Speaker 2: need much explaining.
Speaker 1: It's stupid.
Speaker 2: But the response to that, like, because I think it
Speaker 2: has been quite it's easy for people in America to
Speaker 2: see Britain as like a parochial island full of turfs.
Speaker 2: But I think actually those people were still like most
Speaker 2: people were pretty I guess, offended by the thought that
Speaker 2: we'd allow people to drown rather than coming to our
Speaker 2: country rate to claim asylum. Is that fair statement, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 4: I mean I think it was astonishing actually, or I
Speaker 4: think it astonished people that the Lifeboat Association would be
Speaker 4: politicized in the way that that was attempted by the right.
Speaker 3: The whole idea of.
Speaker 4: Of of of picking and choosing who one would rescue
Speaker 4: at sea is simply preposterous. And as you say, I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, the Lifeboat Association is widely supported. I mean
Speaker 4: you tend to see offices of the Lifeboat Association at seasides,
Speaker 4: so you know, this is a you know, the environment
Speaker 4: is the holiday environment, it's the beach environment.
Speaker 3: It's part of being together.
Speaker 4: In a place which is enjoyed by people together, but
Speaker 4: which also has its risks. And I mean, the first
Speaker 4: time I think, you know, I came across the Lifeboat
Speaker 4: Association was was actually through an appeal that was made
Speaker 4: through a very popular and well known BBC television program
Speaker 4: for children, which was called Blue Peter. And you know,
Speaker 4: they funded a boat by asking kids to send in
Speaker 4: milk bottle tops which could be melted down and turned
Speaker 4: into anyuminium or whatever it was. And then you know,
Speaker 4: this is how they funded a lifeboat. I mean, so
Speaker 4: this you know, lifeboats aren't deeply routed I think, I mean,
Speaker 4: the support for lifeboats are deeply rooted in people's psyche
Speaker 4: in this country.
Speaker 3: And as I say, I think it was it was interesting.
Speaker 4: I guess that these calls from the rights that the
Speaker 4: Lifeboat Association was somehow doing wrong in looking after migrant boats.
Speaker 4: I mean, the small boats, really vulnerable dinghies that were
Speaker 4: being sailed across the Channel. I just think the the
Speaker 4: it gained absolutely no traction because it simply didn't speak
Speaker 4: to people's public perceptor or deeply held perceptions if you like,
Speaker 4: of the role of this association.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's been a really significant campaign to dehumanize
Speaker 2: migrants in the UK, even perhaps to a degree greater
Speaker 2: than we've seen in much of the US, although there's
Speaker 2: complete bipartisan consensus that we should criminalize people coming here
Speaker 2: in the United States too. And I spent people will
Speaker 2: have heard that I spent like the last week driving
Speaker 2: along the border seeing little children forced to be held
Speaker 2: in the desert with no shade and no water like
Speaker 2: it's it's also very brutal here. But I think it
Speaker 2: says something that that's an institution that looks like that
Speaker 2: was a line that wasn't crossable, I guess by the
Speaker 2: right and this demonization of migrants. So we're having established
Speaker 2: that this is a very cherished and important institution. Can
Speaker 2: we talk about how mutual aid is something that because
Speaker 2: I think it can seem understandably to people who have
Speaker 2: been educated in the sort of neoliberal consent. Certainly it
Speaker 2: is very common in schools and universities in both of
Speaker 2: our countries. How this has in fact been like part
Speaker 2: of human history for as long as as people have
Speaker 2: been living in societies, and how it's a natural human
Speaker 2: response to want to do this.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So I mean, I think this takes us back to
Speaker 4: kropotkins theorization, if you like, of mutual aid. So I
Speaker 4: mean talking about sort of you know, our neoliberal culture.
Speaker 4: I mean, Cropotkin's writing in a time where you have
Speaker 4: a similar kind of individualism being stoked, and it's being
Speaker 4: stoked particularly through a notion of social Darwinism. So the
Speaker 4: idea that fitness is linked to or that the survival
Speaker 4: is linked to individual fitness, and that competition is the
Speaker 4: basic rule of life, and that therefore not only individuals,
Speaker 4: but states as well should be, you know, pitting themselves
Speaker 4: against each other in order to gain advantage and to
Speaker 4: secure their own well being. And Kropotkin wanted to sort
Speaker 4: of challenge this argument, and so the way he did
Speaker 4: it was to say two things. One that biological fitness
Speaker 4: is not linked to competition. It's actually linked to cooperation.
Speaker 4: So individuals in any species cannot survive unless they have
Speaker 4: support from others in their species. I mean, it's simply,
Speaker 4: you know, that's that's how biology works. So whatever advantage
Speaker 4: that individuals might might you know, acquire, actually their well
Speaker 4: being depends on the cooperation or the collective practices that
Speaker 4: they have with others. So he recognized that there was
Speaker 4: into species competition, but he said basically, within species, survivalist
Speaker 4: based in corporation. And from that he then said, you know,
Speaker 4: one of the things that we can learn from this,
Speaker 4: from this sort of re under or from this sort
Speaker 4: of review of social Darwinism, is to think about how
Speaker 4: we can encourage cooperation as a moral value, and he said,
Speaker 4: you know, the way then we because that's a good thing.
Speaker 4: Surely it's you know, if we're biologically attuned to cooperate,
Speaker 4: then why don't we make this a principle of our lives.
Speaker 4: And he said that the way that we should do
Speaker 4: this is by configuring our social arrangements or our environments,
Speaker 4: if you like, in ways that enabled us to see
Speaker 4: that we were we were affected by the same sorts
Speaker 4: of problems, that we had affinities with each other, that
Speaker 4: there was a basic relationship that we had with each other,
Speaker 4: not only with family members and friends, but with strangers too,
Speaker 4: and that once we could understand that, then actually we
Speaker 4: could sort of organize our social lives in ways that
Speaker 4: were supportive of others when they were in positions of
Speaker 4: need or when they're in situation of need.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So how would one go about doing that because
Speaker 2: it can seem look where I live, thousands of people
Speaker 2: live on the street, right and I can watch people
Speaker 2: every day walk past people who just need a little
Speaker 2: bit of help and not give it to them, and
Speaker 2: it can be very disheartening. And so how do we
Speaker 2: begin to organize in a way that recognizes our sort
Speaker 2: of mutual dependence.
Speaker 4: So I mean, part of the arguments, I think is
Speaker 4: that people will fill the gaps when they see that
Speaker 4: others are in need. And that's exactly what the Lifeboat
Speaker 4: Association does, and that's exactly what happened during the pandemic
Speaker 4: for example. So you know, not surprisingly, one of the
Speaker 4: things that happened in the first weeks of the pandemic
Speaker 4: was the mushrooming of groups that call themselves mutual aid societies,
Speaker 4: mutual aid associations, and they were networked. I mean, somebody
Speaker 4: set up a website so that you know, people could
Speaker 4: see exactly where these groups were. They were networked in
Speaker 4: the UK. I think there were some relationships that were
Speaker 4: even transatlantic. Part of the argument is that you don't
Speaker 4: have to plan this, and in fact, mutual aid is
Speaker 4: an unplanned is best thought of as an unplanned response.
Speaker 4: But I guess the other thing is, or the question
Speaker 4: that mutual aid begs is that, you know, if people
Speaker 4: get together in times to fill the gaps, if you
Speaker 4: like to provide support for people who are in need,
Speaker 4: then how do they sustain those organizations over periods of
Speaker 4: time without suffering burnout and all the rest of it?
Speaker 3: And I think that really then depends on.
Speaker 4: You know, sort of establishing I guess, I mean, you know,
Speaker 4: that's again why we should take some heart. I think
Speaker 4: from the Lifeboat Association, it's been going a long time.
Speaker 4: It is possible to do these things, but it's difficult,
Speaker 4: and it does require that you learn how to cooperate
Speaker 4: with people who you might not otherwise work with, you
Speaker 4: might not otherwise think you have anything in common with,
Speaker 4: but where you find that common ground in order to
Speaker 4: undertake practical activities in collaboration with each other.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's very question. I'm always like.
Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen, I don't know if you were familiar
Speaker 2: with it's been in the southern border of the United States.
Speaker 2: We had a large group of migrants coming here from
Speaker 2: Central America who became like a sort of talking point
Speaker 2: in the midterms through no fault of their own right,
Speaker 2: and they were held at the US border and then
Speaker 2: tear gas from the sort of Tommy Hilfiger gist out
Speaker 2: store in San Diego. And I was really impressed with,
Speaker 2: Like I was there trying to help with my friends
Speaker 2: and sort of trying to do anarchist things, but also
Speaker 2: there were people who were older ladies from churches and
Speaker 2: people from mosques and people from synagogues, and very very
Speaker 2: much willing to work together, and you know, like you know,
Speaker 2: we'd go to Costco together and spend thousands of thousands
Speaker 2: on water and nappies for babies and such. But I
Speaker 2: think getting past that initial sort of I'm not a
Speaker 2: person who worked for people who go to church too,
Speaker 2: like what this person wants to help and so do
Speaker 2: I was what allowed that to happen? Can you perhaps
Speaker 2: think of other examples that people I'm interested in things
Speaker 2: like the lifeboats, which people might not see through the
Speaker 2: lens of mutual aid because there's such established institutions that
Speaker 2: they there's an assumption. I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: probably think that there's some kind of state involvement with
Speaker 2: the lifeboats, right, and the same with lots of sort
Speaker 2: of the societies that exist to prevent cruelty to animals
Speaker 2: and children and that kind of thing. Those aren't state
Speaker 2: funded either in the UK. Can you think of other
Speaker 2: examples of mutual aid that people might have sort of
Speaker 2: not realized are entirely driven by society and not the state.
Speaker 4: Well, I suppose I mean the best or one of
Speaker 4: the best examples recently in the US context is the
Speaker 4: establishment of the Common Ground Collective after Hurricane Katrina. So
Speaker 4: the aid that first went into the people who were
Speaker 4: stricken by Katrina was not provided by the state. In fact,
Speaker 4: you know, that came a lot later, but it was
Speaker 4: provided by people who, you know, by by groups of
Speaker 4: people who who thought that they, you know, they could
Speaker 4: offer medical support or set up systems of you or help.
Speaker 3: Set up systems of of of.
Speaker 4: Basic supply and rescue, and and and that's exactly what happened,
Speaker 4: and the Common Ground Collective was established as a result
Speaker 4: of it. I mean, you find this sort of thing,
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean, it's it's fairly usual in times
Speaker 4: of you know, sudden emergency and crisis that actually the
Speaker 4: people who who do the hands on work of actually
Speaker 4: taking people off off you know, the how the roofs
Speaker 4: of flooded houses and all the rest of it.
Speaker 3: These are local people. Typically, they're they're not the agencies
Speaker 3: who often you know, take a lot of time to
Speaker 3: get there. I mean.
Speaker 4: The other examples, I think in the American context, again
Speaker 4: which are often rooted around church groups, but certainly a
Speaker 4: lot of black people's organizations which you know, who couldn't
Speaker 4: you know, where they couldn't access support services, set up
Speaker 4: mutual aid societies because that was the if you like,
Speaker 4: the only alternative that they would have in order to
Speaker 4: provide you know, sort of clubs for their kids and
Speaker 4: breakfast clubs and any kind of welfare at all. That
Speaker 4: that was the that was the root of it. The
Speaker 4: other example, I mean Kropotkin looks at I mean these
Speaker 4: are nineteenth cent nineteenth century example which is sort of
Speaker 4: something that's later absorbed by the state. Are the uh
Speaker 4: the the the the insurance arrangements that were that were
Speaker 4: made by miners uh to to look after those who
Speaker 4: were injured down the mines and their families in the
Speaker 4: event of their death. So you know, they were setting
Speaker 4: up their own systems of contribution to ensure sure that
Speaker 4: those families would be provided for if the worst came
Speaker 4: to the worst. And you know, eventually this gets taken
Speaker 4: up by the station, it's sold back to you as
Speaker 4: national insurance. But these systems are you know, they're established
Speaker 4: essentially by local people for their own benefits.
Speaker 2: Yeah, perhaps we ought to talk about that because there's
Speaker 2: a lot of these spontaneous societal things, especially in the
Speaker 2: UK that are corupted by the state and then sold
Speaker 2: back to us and then gradually stripped away of the
Speaker 2: very essence of what they're supposed to be. You're at
Speaker 2: the National Health Service being another example. Can you talk
Speaker 2: about the danger of that kind of state maybe dangers
Speaker 2: who are on word, But there can be a state
Speaker 2: capture of mutual aid efforts, which can sometimes one might argue,
Speaker 2: always like strip them of the essence of what they are.
Speaker 1: Is that fair to say?
Speaker 4: Well, it certainly changes. I mean, so state welfare changes
Speaker 4: the relationships that people have to those institutions, and and
Speaker 4: so in one sense it it alleviates the burden of
Speaker 4: of of running those institutions.
Speaker 3: But in the on the.
Speaker 4: Other hand, it it does two things. I think one
Speaker 4: is that it tends to encourage the idea that looking
Speaker 4: after each other is somebody else's responsibility. So actually it diminishes,
Speaker 4: or it disincentivizes the sort of the.
Speaker 3: That that.
Speaker 4: Stimulus to help each other directly. So mutual aid is
Speaker 4: a kind of direct action, if you like. Whereas you know,
Speaker 4: once we give these these processes over to the state,
Speaker 4: then actually we start to see people in different in
Speaker 4: different ways. So we do start to get the language
Speaker 4: of scrounging or of you know, idleness, deserving, undeserving poor.
Speaker 4: All of those things come from the idea that we're
Speaker 4: paying into an institution and not necessarily being guaranteed that
Speaker 4: we're getting value money. So we start to see the
Speaker 4: institution slightly differently. And I think the other thing is
Speaker 4: that the I mean, the worry I guess of of
Speaker 4: that sort of co optation is that it's it conceals
Speaker 4: the other things that that the state does. So welfare
Speaker 4: is the last thing, if you like, that that states
Speaker 4: assume as a responsibility, and it and it provides a gloss,
Speaker 4: if you like, on the law and order function that
Speaker 4: the state serves and and somehow sort of makes the
Speaker 4: state look a bit friendlier than.
Speaker 3: Perhaps we should think it is.
Speaker 4: And I mean this, you know, when the I suppose that,
Speaker 4: I mean, the term that was used in the in
Speaker 4: the British context, in the in the immediate post war
Speaker 4: period was not the welfare state. It was the warfare state.
Speaker 4: Because the idea was that the introduction of welfare, which
Speaker 4: starts really after the after the Second World War, concealed
Speaker 4: the violence that the state was otherwise perpetuating elsewhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's very It's something we should consider
Speaker 2: very strongly when we're looking at these things, right. I
Speaker 2: think it also strips the like the person to person
Speaker 2: aspect of mutual aid from mutual aid like the certainly
Speaker 2: the most common sort of mutual A responses I've been
Speaker 2: part of to health crises and then to along the border.
Speaker 2: And part of what makes that very meaningful is people saying, like,
Speaker 2: you know, this is a this is a line between
Speaker 2: two states, but it's not a line between two people
Speaker 2: or two communities, right, And you are welcome because I
Speaker 2: am of this community and I want you to come here,
Speaker 2: which you do not get when you know there's a
Speaker 2: man in green combat pants throwing MRIs from the back
Speaker 2: of a pickup truck, like that doesn't.
Speaker 4: That's right, But equally I suppose, I mean that's the
Speaker 4: other thing. I mean, that's that's kind of what I
Speaker 4: was trying to get at.
Speaker 3: That.
Speaker 4: You know, once you have once you have state welfare,
Speaker 4: you have concepts of access through citizenship, and that really
Speaker 4: informed is the idea that there's a there's a right
Speaker 4: of access and then there's a there's an exclusion that
Speaker 4: necessarily follows from that, and so you know, the relationship
Speaker 4: becomes much more transactional rather than which is the way
Speaker 4: that the mutual aid is couched in in.
Speaker 3: The anarchist lexicon.
Speaker 4: You know, it's it's it's it's driven by by altruism
Speaker 4: and and and giving without without the expectation of reward.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I think that's very important. It's it doesn't
Speaker 2: imply a power or an expectation of sort of reciprocity.
Speaker 1: It's it.
Speaker 2: I forget exactly where I read this. Terrible at these things,
Speaker 2: but like I guess you don't do it in a
Speaker 2: selfish sense, but it benefits you as well as a person.
Speaker 2: You are giving to look in because those people are
Speaker 2: part of your community.
Speaker 1: Is that fair?
Speaker 2: And like you shouldn't be complete if people are suffering,
Speaker 2: like right next to you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I suppose there's a sort of there's a
Speaker 4: there's an argument to say that.
Speaker 3: I mean that that comes from the from the.
Speaker 4: Notion of of of recasting what it is to be
Speaker 4: an individual. So you know, you're your your personal enrichment
Speaker 4: actually relies on the relationships that you can cultivate with
Speaker 4: other people. So you know, the the quality of those
Speaker 4: relationships is actually something that of course benefits you.
Speaker 3: But I think the I mean, one of the things.
Speaker 3: Can tells this story about.
Speaker 4: A child drowning in a river, and he imagines three
Speaker 4: people standing on the river bank. One of them is
Speaker 4: a religious believer, the second one is he calls an
Speaker 4: ordinary bourgeois a utilitarian, and the third one he doesn't
Speaker 4: describe at all. And he says, you know what what
Speaker 4: happens when they see this child in the river. And
Speaker 4: he says, well, the religious person is wondering, you know,
Speaker 4: I should go and save the child because I'll reap
Speaker 4: my reward in heaven. And the utilitarian is thinking, you know,
Speaker 4: if I if I save this child, then I'm going
Speaker 4: to feel really good about myself, and so therefore I
Speaker 4: should do it. And while they're while they're sort of
Speaker 4: going through that process of reasoning, the third person has
Speaker 4: just jumped in and saved the child.
Speaker 3: And that's mutual aid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I think that's very good. Yeah, it comes
Speaker 2: from Yeah, it doesn't need to be like overly theorized
Speaker 2: to suppose. Yeah, and it really doesn't, like I've never
Speaker 2: I think the construction of mutual aid is important because
Speaker 2: it allows us to join the dots across the world
Speaker 2: and across time and to see the relationship with the state.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't need you don't need to have read
Speaker 2: Cropotkin to like, I know, a big it's sprung up
Speaker 2: here a lot in the pandemic too, right, like free
Speaker 2: shops and certainly for older people or people who are compromised.
Speaker 2: I remember breaking thousands of loaves of bread from the
Speaker 2: pizza shop down the street wasn't able to open, so
Speaker 2: they would bring me flower and I would make bread
Speaker 2: and we would take it to people, and things like
Speaker 2: that were very spontaneous and didn't particularly need like theorizing
Speaker 2: in terms of crow Popkin. But sadly they sort of
Speaker 2: we lost a lot of that with the you know,
Speaker 2: with the reduction in the severity of the pandemic, I guess,
Speaker 2: and I think it's important to remember that that was
Speaker 2: a natural response on one that we should cultivate.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I mean there were all sorts
Speaker 4: of things that were going on here. I mean there
Speaker 4: were people who were sewing up scrubs for health workers,
Speaker 4: delivering lunches to health workers, you know, as well as
Speaker 4: just you know, the checking on the neighbors making sure
Speaker 4: that people were okay. So yeah, I mean it took
Speaker 4: you know, multiple different forms, and yeah, I mean it
Speaker 4: is difficult because you know, once real life as it
Speaker 4: were sort of returned and the and the lockdowns were relaxed,
Speaker 4: you know, people have all kinds of other demands on
Speaker 4: their time, and again we sort of then get used
Speaker 4: to thinking that, you know, somebody else is going to
Speaker 4: pick up the pieces now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do think that that's part of that
Speaker 2: lock down nostalgia, which is bizarrely already occurring three years.
Speaker 1: Down the line.
Speaker 2: But people look back and think, oh, well, it wasn't
Speaker 2: that bad, and obviously thousands of people died that we
Speaker 2: shouldn't overlook that. But part of what people looking back
Speaker 2: on is that sense of community, which I think so
Speaker 2: many of us lack. The alienation is very real for
Speaker 2: a lot of us, and so those mutual A groups
Speaker 2: or watchapp groups and things gave people a real sense
Speaker 2: of belonging. I think that's the same A lot of
Speaker 2: people felt that way in twenty twenty, for obviously, there
Speaker 2: was an uprising in the United States which gave people
Speaker 2: a sense of purpose which maybe they they're not feeling
Speaker 2: anymore if people are interested in I guess there's learning
Speaker 2: and there's doing, and that they can be distinct or
Speaker 2: they can be done at the same time, and we
Speaker 2: can learn by doing. And where would people start they
Speaker 2: want to start their reading? Are their texts that you'd recommend,
Speaker 2: that you know, are not the size of a breeze
Speaker 2: block that people might approachable, Well.
Speaker 4: You can get I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm I
Speaker 4: mean Potkin's book Mutual Aid is quite long. I mean,
Speaker 4: it's the last two chapters really that are the ones
Speaker 4: to read, and that's freely available online.
Speaker 3: It's I mean, it's a very nineteenth century kind of argument.
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 4: The other I mean, the other one that I really
Speaker 4: like is Cindy Milstein's Anarchism and Its Aspirations, and that's short,
Speaker 4: it's very accessible, and she has this discussion of mutual
Speaker 4: aid where she she links it to what she calls
Speaker 4: the ethical Compass, and I think that speaks really nicely
Speaker 4: to the to the you know, the principles and the sentiments,
Speaker 4: if you like, of mutual aid, that it is this
Speaker 4: kind of thick relationship that people cultivate but not necessarily
Speaker 4: a not necessarily with a view to living in sort
Speaker 4: of permanently in community with each other, but actually to
Speaker 4: change the dynamics of the the kind of the cities
Speaker 4: we live in and the detachments that we not only
Speaker 4: have but also sometimes kind of value. We don't necessarily
Speaker 4: want to live in each other's pockets. But actually that
Speaker 4: doesn't mean to say that we can't practice much live
Speaker 4: with each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that'd be a great, great place for
Speaker 2: people to start if they want to read a tiny
Speaker 2: bio of Cropotkin. Dog Section Press has an excellent, excellent
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of their great Anarchist book.
Speaker 1: I think it's very approachable for.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're also they're also available.
Speaker 1: Online, Yes they are.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're illustrated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're very beautifully illustrated.
Speaker 2: It's been a good one for me to assign to
Speaker 2: students and have them approach anarchism from a non prejudice perspective,
Speaker 2: I suppose, which is which can be hard? Like I
Speaker 2: always remember coming to the US for the first time
Speaker 2: when I was twenty one, and like, I don't think
Speaker 2: I presented in a way that was particularly affable to
Speaker 2: the Transport Security Administration. But what are you doing here?
Speaker 2: I'm pH d student, what are you studying political violence
Speaker 2: and the anarchist unions? I was immediately sent to the
Speaker 2: little room that you go to, UH and I had
Speaker 2: some more questions to answer. But I think it's it's
Speaker 2: really important to present anarchism, I think through the lens
Speaker 2: of mut because I think so often it's viewed through
Speaker 2: the lens of like a predilection for chaos and violence,
Speaker 2: which is the opposite of what you're doing when you
Speaker 2: know you're giving someone a blanket or something like it's
Speaker 2: and so I think if people listening will at least
Speaker 2: be familiar with the concept of anarchism and mutual aid
Speaker 2: and not see it in that prejudicial way. But I
Speaker 2: think if we can present it to other people, you know,
Speaker 2: you're doing anarchism everyone was doing getting start the pandemic
Speaker 2: when they were sewing masks like you say, or home
Speaker 2: brewing hand sanitizer.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that's I think that's really important
Speaker 4: actually to the to the argument that the mutual aid
Speaker 4: is for everyone, so you know, you're not anarchists are
Speaker 4: not trying to change people's heads or get them to
Speaker 4: think in particular ways when they talk about mutual aid.
Speaker 4: What they're doing is tapping into a propensity that exists
Speaker 4: within all of us. And what an anarchists are saying
Speaker 4: is that if you, you know, if you push organizations
Speaker 4: in particular directions and actually you've got a better way
Speaker 4: or a better means of a better sort of environment
Speaker 4: within which you can sustain those practices. But mutual aid
Speaker 4: itself is not about being an anarchist. It's about being
Speaker 4: a human being.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder so if people want to sort of
Speaker 2: build ways of taking care of each other without the
Speaker 2: state where they are, maybe they can see a problem,
Speaker 2: right that hasn't been addressed by the state, like one
Speaker 2: of those holes that you spoke about, or a problem
Speaker 2: that the state is addressing inadequately or in an undesirable way.
Speaker 2: How would they go about? Like, do you have advice
Speaker 2: people looking to start? It can be especially if you're
Speaker 2: not on social media, which I know we've had people email,
Speaker 2: but like, I'm not on Facebook or Twitter? And how
Speaker 2: do I organize mutual aid? Do you have any suggestions
Speaker 2: for that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: So, I mean there are, I mean there are normally
Speaker 4: sort of in any I mean certainly where I live,
Speaker 4: which is a small market town. I mean there is
Speaker 4: a community center there. I mean there are churches too,
Speaker 4: but I mean there is a sort of a local
Speaker 4: civic center, if you like, which has all kinds of
Speaker 4: adverts for local groups and activities. There's a I mean,
Speaker 4: we're a town of sanctuary, so we're one of the
Speaker 4: places that migrants are sent to in order to register.
Speaker 4: And the people who are involved in the Town of Sanctuary,
Speaker 4: they meet them, greet them, try and give them information
Speaker 4: that's useful to them. They run English language classes, They
Speaker 4: try and get the kids into swimming pools.
Speaker 3: I mean, they're all sorts of things activities that they're doing.
Speaker 4: So I think it's a matter of sort of seeing
Speaker 4: what's there yea, and then sort of try. I mean
Speaker 4: often I think people don't realize the skills they have.
Speaker 4: So for example, you know, if they speak more in
Speaker 4: one language, it's often really helpful to people who are
Speaker 4: arriving in a foreign land or a land that they
Speaker 4: don't they're they're not speakers of the native language, you know,
Speaker 4: to help translate, to share information, just to point people
Speaker 4: in the direction where they can get help from from
Speaker 4: other agencies. So I don't think I mean, it seems
Speaker 4: to me that you know, mutual aid is not necessarily
Speaker 4: trying to sort of say you're not going to enable
Speaker 4: people to access support services that are provided. I mean,
Speaker 4: even if they're paltry services provided by the state. What
Speaker 4: you're trying to do is to meet people's needs.
Speaker 3: And there are.
Speaker 4: Existing groups and associations which are which will enable you
Speaker 4: to do that. I mean, you could go if you
Speaker 4: live at the seaside, you could go down to your
Speaker 4: local lifeboat association and see if they need a volunteer
Speaker 4: to run the office. You know, there are that these
Speaker 4: are the sorts of things things that keep these institutions running.
Speaker 3: That's the kind of thing that you can do.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a very good, very good suggest
Speaker 1: for people.
Speaker 2: And we don't we don't need to be like turn
Speaker 2: our noses up at support for the state where what
Speaker 2: little is available, we should avail ourselves and are the
Speaker 2: people who need.
Speaker 3: It and empower other people to get to Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And certainly we can't. We can't act as
Speaker 2: if the state doesn't exist at a time where it does.
Speaker 2: It's powerful and it can hurt run more people.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's Is there anything.
Speaker 2: Else you'd like to say before we finish up on
Speaker 2: the topic of mutual aid.
Speaker 4: No, I think we've covered Yeah, I think we've we've
Speaker 4: sort of covered it. I mean, I just I guess
Speaker 4: it's a you know, mutual aid is a is The
Speaker 4: important thing for me is that mutual aid is a
Speaker 4: It's an easy thing and it's and it and it
Speaker 4: can build and that's the the and it can be sustained.
Speaker 4: That's the joy of it. And I think that's the
Speaker 4: brilliant thing about the example of the life but association. Yeah,
Speaker 4: we can set up all kinds of things and run them.
Speaker 4: We don't need to be told to do it. We
Speaker 4: don't need to be told how to do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember.
Speaker 2: One of the things that always gives me like a
Speaker 2: little spark of joy for such a venerable British institution
Speaker 2: with Royal in its name, is that they celebrate for
Speaker 2: Hopkins's birthday apparently, Yeah, exactly. They'll post on all their
Speaker 2: social media like pictures of cropopkin like a little birthday
Speaker 2: cake and the celebrations, which, yeah, I think people should,
Speaker 2: you know, take a little moment of joy to celebrate.
Speaker 1: These things that we've already achieved. And I guess trying
Speaker 1: to be better.
Speaker 2: Is there is there any way people can find you
Speaker 2: on the internet. I don't know if you have social
Speaker 2: media or website.
Speaker 4: Not on social media, but I'm easily you can find
Speaker 4: me at the university at luf for University.
Speaker 3: It's lo ugh b O r g H.
Speaker 1: It's one some of my colleagues have struggled with.
Speaker 3: It's not easy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's the easiest post to find me in.
Speaker 4: My contact information is there, and if anyone wants to
Speaker 4: write to me, then I'm happy to write back.
Speaker 2: Wonderful, Thank you so much pleasure.
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Speaker 3: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
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