WEBVTT - The Theory and Practice of Mutual Aid 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:06.040 Hello everyone. 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.560 It's just me James again today and I'm joined by 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.559 Ruth Kinner who's going to introduce herself shortly. And we're 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.720 discussing the concept of mutual aid and trying to sort 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.079 of cast that in a broader perspective. We talk a 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:20.960 lot about mutual aid, but we don't talk often about 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:22.919 what it is and what it means and how it's 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.200 been happening for a very long time. So Ruth, would 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.080 you like to introduce yourself and tell it tone that 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:27.960 you think it's relevant. 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:29.280 Yeah, thank you, James. 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.639 So my name is Ruth Kinner and i work at 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:36.239 Lufber University in the UK. Lufber's halfway between Nottingham and 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:41.120 Leicester in the East Midlands, and I'm a political theorist 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:45.879 and historian of ideas and I specialize in anarchist political thought. 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.600 And one of the people I've spent probably most time 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:53.000 looking at is Peter Cropotkin, and I've written about crop 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:57.960 Popkins's life and work. I'm also the editor of the 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.000 journal Anarchist Studies and I'm a member love for University 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.560 of the Anarchism Research Group I lovely. 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.440 Yeah, that's a very very appropriate TV for this. 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.039 And so can we start off by explaining because I 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.240 think people hear mutual aids sort of thrown about a lot, 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:15.800 and they know that it's people helping people, But what 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:17.600 would you define it as. 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:19.800 What would be a useful definition for people to work of. 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:25.440 So mutual aid is about people helping people. But I 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.160 think crop Popkin's argument, or you know, the way that 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.480 anarchists tend to think about mutual aid is that it's 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:38.200 a way of describing a relationship that can be encouraged 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.080 or discouraged according to the ways in which we organize 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:45.240 our social relationships. So mutual aid is a kind of 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.320 a response that we all have two people when it's 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:53.360 based on empathy, I guess. But it's something that we 0:01:53.440 --> 0:02:00.360 can dampen, I suppose if we divorce ourselves from from 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:04.160 other people in our everyday lives, and particularly if we 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.840 tend to think that people's well being is the concern 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.520 of others rather than something which is a collective concern 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:15.120 of all of us. 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:15.760 Yeah. 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.200 Yeah, I think that it's really excellent because it's very easy, 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.240 especially if you're living under sort of capitalism as it 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:26.440 exists today, to divorce yourself from your empathy or I 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.200 don't know responsibility is the right word, but to help 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:29.880 other people. 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.640 Can we see that all the time? And I think 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:36.760 one area where we've seen that increasingly, certainly in the 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:39.680 two countries that we're sitting in, is with this like 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:42.119 just bizarre. 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.080 I don't want to like pathologize it, but this just 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:51.320 deeply untasteful lack of empathy for refugees and people seeking asilum. 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.480 So I wanted to sort of start with the example 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.360 of the lifeboats in the UK, because I think they're great. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.239 They pop up in a potkin, They've been around for 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:03.960 very long time, and they were, at least when I 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.320 was living in the UK, very charity institution that people supported. 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:09.880 And can you explain a little bit about how they 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.560 operate within that sort of mutual aid lens. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:15.120 Yeah. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:20.040 So the Lifeboat Association was prompted by it's called an 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:20.600 Appeal to. 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:21.239 The British Nation. 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.600 It was published in eighteen twenty five by this guy 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.040 called William Hillary, and what Hillary wanted to do was 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.520 to support the foundation of a kind of national institution 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.320 that was going to help the victims of shipwrecks. And 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.480 he couched this project actually as quite a sort of 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.040 nationalistic terms I suppose were in patriotic terms, as sort 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.480 of part of the duty that British people would have 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.880 as one of the great seafaring nations. But what it 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.320 did was that it established the skeleton, if you like, 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.360 or it produced the sort of the foundation for the 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:55.000 Lifeboat Association, which is what we know now, which is 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.200 basically a voluntary organization run by volunteers, funded by the public, 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.640 with a remit to help anybody who is in distress 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:07.400 at sea. And I guess although it was sort of 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.840 the original idea of the Lifeboat Association came from this 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:16.280 sort of rather patriotic seafaring tradition. Hillary's idea was that 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:22.600 once you set up these organizations locally on the coast, 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:24.760 then actually they could be replicated. So he did have 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.560 a sort of internationalist perspective. He thought that these things 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.520 would be would mushroom, you know, across the globe, and 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:33.200 that we would have lifebreat associations everywhere. I'm not sure 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.840 if that's true, but certainly the Lifeboat Association is still 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:40.440 alive and well in the UK and it does exactly 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:44.440 what he wanted it to do. It looks after people 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.520 in distress at sea, without fear or favor, And it's 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:49.640 an example of mutual aid, I guess, because the people 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:55.080 who do this as volunteers are always putting themselves at 0:04:55.240 --> 0:05:00.000 risk of peril or drowning, if you like, in order 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:02.360 to try and preserve the lives of others. 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.280 Yeah, and it's a very at least from my memory 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.640 an institution. I've never really heard of anyone having negative 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.520 opinions about lifeboats until relatively recently. Like there was always 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.040 a lifeboat shaped thing that you could put money in, 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.080 like a donation box, and people just. 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:19.440 Put money in it, and no one was like, oh, 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:23.640 I don't like the lifeboats. But recently, I suppose I've 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:27.040 come under fire from Britain. First for. 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:32.000 I think they would phrase it as like encouraging people 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.560 to take the risk of traveling on small boats to 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:39.880 the United Kingdom to claim asylum. And can you characterize 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.440 I don't want you to characterize that attack because it's 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.679 relatively easy to characterize and it's you know, it doesn't 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:47.360 need much explaining. 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:47.920 It's stupid. 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.320 But the response to that, like, because I think it 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.360 has been quite it's easy for people in America to 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.039 see Britain as like a parochial island full of turfs. 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:02.600 But I think actually those people were still like most 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.320 people were pretty I guess, offended by the thought that 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.120 we'd allow people to drown rather than coming to our 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.680 country rate to claim asylum. Is that fair statement, Yeah, 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:12.039 I think so. 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.599 I mean I think it was astonishing actually, or I 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.720 think it astonished people that the Lifeboat Association would be 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.839 politicized in the way that that was attempted by the right. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:23.640 The whole idea of. 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:28.400 Of of of picking and choosing who one would rescue 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:30.880 at sea is simply preposterous. And as you say, I mean, 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:35.440 you know, the Lifeboat Association is widely supported. I mean 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.600 you tend to see offices of the Lifeboat Association at seasides, 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.440 so you know, this is a you know, the environment 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.200 is the holiday environment, it's the beach environment. 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.599 It's part of being together. 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.839 In a place which is enjoyed by people together, but 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:55.960 which also has its risks. And I mean, the first 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.080 time I think, you know, I came across the Lifeboat 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:03.000 Association was was actually through an appeal that was made 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:07.839 through a very popular and well known BBC television program 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.600 for children, which was called Blue Peter. And you know, 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:15.080 they funded a boat by asking kids to send in 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:19.360 milk bottle tops which could be melted down and turned 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:21.560 into anyuminium or whatever it was. And then you know, 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:23.440 this is how they funded a lifeboat. I mean, so 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.280 this you know, lifeboats aren't deeply routed I think, I mean, 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.640 the support for lifeboats are deeply rooted in people's psyche 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:31.320 in this country. 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:36.000 And as I say, I think it was it was interesting. 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.560 I guess that these calls from the rights that the 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:44.480 Lifeboat Association was somehow doing wrong in looking after migrant boats. 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:46.800 I mean, the small boats, really vulnerable dinghies that were 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.520 being sailed across the Channel. I just think the the 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:57.239 it gained absolutely no traction because it simply didn't speak 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:01.440 to people's public perceptor or deeply held perceptions if you like, 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:02.760 of the role of this association. 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.480 Yeah, and there's been a really significant campaign to dehumanize 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:11.960 migrants in the UK, even perhaps to a degree greater 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.120 than we've seen in much of the US, although there's 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.040 complete bipartisan consensus that we should criminalize people coming here 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.480 in the United States too. And I spent people will 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.000 have heard that I spent like the last week driving 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:29.200 along the border seeing little children forced to be held 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.120 in the desert with no shade and no water like 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.200 it's it's also very brutal here. But I think it 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.880 says something that that's an institution that looks like that 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:41.040 was a line that wasn't crossable, I guess by the 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:45.960 right and this demonization of migrants. So we're having established 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:49.120 that this is a very cherished and important institution. Can 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.640 we talk about how mutual aid is something that because 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.760 I think it can seem understandably to people who have 0:08:55.920 --> 0:09:02.120 been educated in the sort of neoliberal consent. Certainly it 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:04.760 is very common in schools and universities in both of 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.760 our countries. How this has in fact been like part 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:09.840 of human history for as long as as people have 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.240 been living in societies, and how it's a natural human 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.400 response to want to do this. 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:17.200 Yeah. 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:19.880 So I mean, I think this takes us back to 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:26.120 kropotkins theorization, if you like, of mutual aid. So I 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.600 mean talking about sort of you know, our neoliberal culture. 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.920 I mean, Cropotkin's writing in a time where you have 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:38.320 a similar kind of individualism being stoked, and it's being 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:43.600 stoked particularly through a notion of social Darwinism. So the 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:48.200 idea that fitness is linked to or that the survival 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:52.840 is linked to individual fitness, and that competition is the 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:58.280 basic rule of life, and that therefore not only individuals, 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.080 but states as well should be, you know, pitting themselves 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.880 against each other in order to gain advantage and to 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.200 secure their own well being. And Kropotkin wanted to sort 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.000 of challenge this argument, and so the way he did 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:18.319 it was to say two things. One that biological fitness 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.680 is not linked to competition. It's actually linked to cooperation. 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:25.480 So individuals in any species cannot survive unless they have 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.920 support from others in their species. I mean, it's simply, 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:34.360 you know, that's that's how biology works. So whatever advantage 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:39.080 that individuals might might you know, acquire, actually their well 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.560 being depends on the cooperation or the collective practices that 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:44.880 they have with others. So he recognized that there was 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.960 into species competition, but he said basically, within species, survivalist 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:52.480 based in corporation. And from that he then said, you know, 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.680 one of the things that we can learn from this, 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.240 from this sort of re under or from this sort 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:05.280 of review of social Darwinism, is to think about how 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:11.920 we can encourage cooperation as a moral value, and he said, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.319 you know, the way then we because that's a good thing. 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:19.680 Surely it's you know, if we're biologically attuned to cooperate, 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.559 then why don't we make this a principle of our lives. 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:24.440 And he said that the way that we should do 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:30.199 this is by configuring our social arrangements or our environments, 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.199 if you like, in ways that enabled us to see 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:39.360 that we were we were affected by the same sorts 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.480 of problems, that we had affinities with each other, that 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.280 there was a basic relationship that we had with each other, 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.800 not only with family members and friends, but with strangers too, 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.160 and that once we could understand that, then actually we 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.560 could sort of organize our social lives in ways that 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.760 were supportive of others when they were in positions of 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:00.680 need or when they're in situation of need. 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:04.680 Yeah, So how would one go about doing that because 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:09.040 it can seem look where I live, thousands of people 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.000 live on the street, right and I can watch people 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:12.880 every day walk past people who just need a little 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:14.640 bit of help and not give it to them, and 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.920 it can be very disheartening. And so how do we 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.800 begin to organize in a way that recognizes our sort 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:22.760 of mutual dependence. 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:26.960 So I mean, part of the arguments, I think is 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:32.440 that people will fill the gaps when they see that 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:34.920 others are in need. And that's exactly what the Lifeboat 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.080 Association does, and that's exactly what happened during the pandemic 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:41.960 for example. So you know, not surprisingly, one of the 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.760 things that happened in the first weeks of the pandemic 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.800 was the mushrooming of groups that call themselves mutual aid societies, 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.960 mutual aid associations, and they were networked. I mean, somebody 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.000 set up a website so that you know, people could 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.720 see exactly where these groups were. They were networked in 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.959 the UK. I think there were some relationships that were 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.640 even transatlantic. Part of the argument is that you don't 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:03.839 have to plan this, and in fact, mutual aid is 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.880 an unplanned is best thought of as an unplanned response. 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.280 But I guess the other thing is, or the question 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.560 that mutual aid begs is that, you know, if people 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.120 get together in times to fill the gaps, if you 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.920 like to provide support for people who are in need, 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.960 then how do they sustain those organizations over periods of 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:27.960 time without suffering burnout and all the rest of it? 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:31.360 And I think that really then depends on. 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.480 You know, sort of establishing I guess, I mean, you know, 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.720 that's again why we should take some heart. I think 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.320 from the Lifeboat Association, it's been going a long time. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:43.840 It is possible to do these things, but it's difficult, 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.640 and it does require that you learn how to cooperate 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:50.920 with people who you might not otherwise work with, you 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.840 might not otherwise think you have anything in common with, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.040 but where you find that common ground in order to 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:01.520 undertake practical activities in collaboration with each other. 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.920 Yeah, I think that's very question. I'm always like. 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:08.000 In twenty eighteen, I don't know if you were familiar 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.520 with it's been in the southern border of the United States. 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.480 We had a large group of migrants coming here from 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:16.040 Central America who became like a sort of talking point 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.800 in the midterms through no fault of their own right, 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:20.680 and they were held at the US border and then 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.560 tear gas from the sort of Tommy Hilfiger gist out 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.520 store in San Diego. And I was really impressed with, 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.600 Like I was there trying to help with my friends 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.560 and sort of trying to do anarchist things, but also 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.600 there were people who were older ladies from churches and 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.280 people from mosques and people from synagogues, and very very 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.440 much willing to work together, and you know, like you know, 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.040 we'd go to Costco together and spend thousands of thousands 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.560 on water and nappies for babies and such. But I 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.000 think getting past that initial sort of I'm not a 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.440 person who worked for people who go to church too, 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:56.920 like what this person wants to help and so do 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:10.440 I was what allowed that to happen? Can you perhaps 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:14.720 think of other examples that people I'm interested in things 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:16.640 like the lifeboats, which people might not see through the 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.400 lens of mutual aid because there's such established institutions that 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:22.200 they there's an assumption. I think a lot of people 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.560 probably think that there's some kind of state involvement with 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.120 the lifeboats, right, and the same with lots of sort 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:31.680 of the societies that exist to prevent cruelty to animals 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.040 and children and that kind of thing. Those aren't state 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.800 funded either in the UK. Can you think of other 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.000 examples of mutual aid that people might have sort of 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.720 not realized are entirely driven by society and not the state. 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.240 Well, I suppose I mean the best or one of 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:49.760 the best examples recently in the US context is the 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:54.680 establishment of the Common Ground Collective after Hurricane Katrina. So 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.400 the aid that first went into the people who were 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.920 stricken by Katrina was not provided by the state. In fact, 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.960 you know, that came a lot later, but it was 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.760 provided by people who, you know, by by groups of 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.880 people who who thought that they, you know, they could 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:15.760 offer medical support or set up systems of you or help. 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.720 Set up systems of of of. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.920 Basic supply and rescue, and and and that's exactly what happened, 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.280 and the Common Ground Collective was established as a result 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:26.680 of it. I mean, you find this sort of thing, 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:31.440 I mean, I mean, it's it's fairly usual in times 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.960 of you know, sudden emergency and crisis that actually the 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.360 people who who do the hands on work of actually 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:43.000 taking people off off you know, the how the roofs 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.080 of flooded houses and all the rest of it. 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:50.239 These are local people. Typically, they're they're not the agencies 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.800 who often you know, take a lot of time to 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:53.800 get there. I mean. 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.760 The other examples, I think in the American context, again 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:02.120 which are often rooted around church groups, but certainly a 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.800 lot of black people's organizations which you know, who couldn't 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:12.000 you know, where they couldn't access support services, set up 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.879 mutual aid societies because that was the if you like, 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.240 the only alternative that they would have in order to 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:22.320 provide you know, sort of clubs for their kids and 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:27.160 breakfast clubs and any kind of welfare at all. That 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.040 that was the that was the root of it. The 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.320 other example, I mean Kropotkin looks at I mean these 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.600 are nineteenth cent nineteenth century example which is sort of 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:39.800 something that's later absorbed by the state. Are the uh 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:44.560 the the the the insurance arrangements that were that were 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:50.199 made by miners uh to to look after those who 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.399 were injured down the mines and their families in the 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.320 event of their death. So you know, they were setting 0:17:55.400 --> 0:18:00.520 up their own systems of contribution to ensure sure that 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.840 those families would be provided for if the worst came 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:05.760 to the worst. And you know, eventually this gets taken 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:07.320 up by the station, it's sold back to you as 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:11.439 national insurance. But these systems are you know, they're established 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:15.280 essentially by local people for their own benefits. 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.040 Yeah, perhaps we ought to talk about that because there's 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.359 a lot of these spontaneous societal things, especially in the 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.280 UK that are corupted by the state and then sold 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.879 back to us and then gradually stripped away of the 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:29.679 very essence of what they're supposed to be. You're at 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.360 the National Health Service being another example. Can you talk 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.080 about the danger of that kind of state maybe dangers 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.520 who are on word, But there can be a state 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:44.840 capture of mutual aid efforts, which can sometimes one might argue, 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.880 always like strip them of the essence of what they are. 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:49.160 Is that fair to say? 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:54.800 Well, it certainly changes. I mean, so state welfare changes 0:18:54.840 --> 0:19:00.200 the relationships that people have to those institutions, and and 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.960 so in one sense it it alleviates the burden of 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:07.040 of of running those institutions. 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:08.200 But in the on the. 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:10.840 Other hand, it it does two things. I think one 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:16.000 is that it tends to encourage the idea that looking 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:20.600 after each other is somebody else's responsibility. So actually it diminishes, 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:22.840 or it disincentivizes the sort of the. 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:25.840 That that. 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.920 Stimulus to help each other directly. So mutual aid is 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.280 a kind of direct action, if you like. Whereas you know, 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.320 once we give these these processes over to the state, 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.440 then actually we start to see people in different in 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.680 different ways. So we do start to get the language 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:51.640 of scrounging or of you know, idleness, deserving, undeserving poor. 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.360 All of those things come from the idea that we're 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:59.159 paying into an institution and not necessarily being guaranteed that 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.560 we're getting value money. So we start to see the 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.760 institution slightly differently. And I think the other thing is 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:11.160 that the I mean, the worry I guess of of 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:15.280 that sort of co optation is that it's it conceals 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.360 the other things that that the state does. So welfare 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.040 is the last thing, if you like, that that states 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:26.960 assume as a responsibility, and it and it provides a gloss, 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:31.120 if you like, on the law and order function that 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:35.879 the state serves and and somehow sort of makes the 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.560 state look a bit friendlier than. 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:40.080 Perhaps we should think it is. 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.959 And I mean this, you know, when the I suppose that, 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:44.399 I mean, the term that was used in the in 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.240 the British context, in the in the immediate post war 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.080 period was not the welfare state. It was the warfare state. 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.280 Because the idea was that the introduction of welfare, which 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:58.280 starts really after the after the Second World War, concealed 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.320 the violence that the state was otherwise perpetuating elsewhere. 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.959 Yeah, I think that's very It's something we should consider 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:07.920 very strongly when we're looking at these things, right. I 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.880 think it also strips the like the person to person 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:16.560 aspect of mutual aid from mutual aid like the certainly 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.960 the most common sort of mutual A responses I've been 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:24.320 part of to health crises and then to along the border. 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:29.199 And part of what makes that very meaningful is people saying, like, 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:31.640 you know, this is a this is a line between 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:33.919 two states, but it's not a line between two people 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.959 or two communities, right, And you are welcome because I 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.200 am of this community and I want you to come here, 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.399 which you do not get when you know there's a 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.800 man in green combat pants throwing MRIs from the back 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:47.720 of a pickup truck, like that doesn't. 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:50.399 That's right, But equally I suppose, I mean that's the 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:51.960 other thing. I mean, that's that's kind of what I 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:52.719 was trying to get at. 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:52.920 That. 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:56.080 You know, once you have once you have state welfare, 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:59.640 you have concepts of access through citizenship, and that really 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:02.240 informed is the idea that there's a there's a right 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:06.840 of access and then there's a there's an exclusion that 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.280 necessarily follows from that, and so you know, the relationship 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:15.120 becomes much more transactional rather than which is the way 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:17.680 that the mutual aid is couched in in. 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:19.840 The anarchist lexicon. 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:23.320 You know, it's it's it's it's driven by by altruism 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:30.199 and and and giving without without the expectation of reward. 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:33.160 Yes, yeah, I think that's very important. It's it doesn't 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.000 imply a power or an expectation of sort of reciprocity. 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.040 It's it. 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:43.400 I forget exactly where I read this. Terrible at these things, 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.439