1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Hello everyone. 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 2: It's just me James again today and I'm joined by 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: Ruth Kinner who's going to introduce herself shortly. And we're 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: discussing the concept of mutual aid and trying to sort 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 2: of cast that in a broader perspective. We talk a 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 2: lot about mutual aid, but we don't talk often about 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: what it is and what it means and how it's 8 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 2: been happening for a very long time. So Ruth, would 9 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: you like to introduce yourself and tell it tone that 10 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: you think it's relevant. 11 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, James. 12 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 4: So my name is Ruth Kinner and i work at 13 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 4: Lufber University in the UK. Lufber's halfway between Nottingham and 14 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 4: Leicester in the East Midlands, and I'm a political theorist 15 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 4: and historian of ideas and I specialize in anarchist political thought. 16 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 4: And one of the people I've spent probably most time 17 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 4: looking at is Peter Cropotkin, and I've written about crop 18 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 4: Popkins's life and work. I'm also the editor of the 19 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 4: journal Anarchist Studies and I'm a member love for University 20 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 4: of the Anarchism Research Group I lovely. 21 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very very appropriate TV for this. 22 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 2: And so can we start off by explaining because I 23 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: think people hear mutual aids sort of thrown about a lot, 24 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: and they know that it's people helping people, But what 25 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: would you define it as. 26 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: What would be a useful definition for people to work of. 27 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 4: So mutual aid is about people helping people. But I 28 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 4: think crop Popkin's argument, or you know, the way that 29 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 4: anarchists tend to think about mutual aid is that it's 30 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 4: a way of describing a relationship that can be encouraged 31 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 4: or discouraged according to the ways in which we organize 32 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 4: our social relationships. So mutual aid is a kind of 33 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 4: a response that we all have two people when it's 34 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 4: based on empathy, I guess. But it's something that we 35 00:01:53,440 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 4: can dampen, I suppose if we divorce ourselves from from 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 4: other people in our everyday lives, and particularly if we 37 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 4: tend to think that people's well being is the concern 38 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 4: of others rather than something which is a collective concern 39 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 4: of all of us. 40 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 41 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that it's really excellent because it's very easy, 42 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: especially if you're living under sort of capitalism as it 43 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: exists today, to divorce yourself from your empathy or I 44 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: don't know responsibility is the right word, but to help 45 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: other people. 46 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: Can we see that all the time? And I think 47 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: one area where we've seen that increasingly, certainly in the 48 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: two countries that we're sitting in, is with this like 49 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 1: just bizarre. 50 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 2: I don't want to like pathologize it, but this just 51 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: deeply untasteful lack of empathy for refugees and people seeking asilum. 52 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: So I wanted to sort of start with the example 53 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: of the lifeboats in the UK, because I think they're great. 54 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 2: They pop up in a potkin, They've been around for 55 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 2: very long time, and they were, at least when I 56 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: was living in the UK, very charity institution that people supported. 57 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: And can you explain a little bit about how they 58 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: operate within that sort of mutual aid lens. 59 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 60 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 4: So the Lifeboat Association was prompted by it's called an 61 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 4: Appeal to. 62 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 3: The British Nation. 63 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 4: It was published in eighteen twenty five by this guy 64 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 4: called William Hillary, and what Hillary wanted to do was 65 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 4: to support the foundation of a kind of national institution 66 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 4: that was going to help the victims of shipwrecks. And 67 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 4: he couched this project actually as quite a sort of 68 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 4: nationalistic terms I suppose were in patriotic terms, as sort 69 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 4: of part of the duty that British people would have 70 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 4: as one of the great seafaring nations. But what it 71 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 4: did was that it established the skeleton, if you like, 72 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 4: or it produced the sort of the foundation for the 73 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 4: Lifeboat Association, which is what we know now, which is 74 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 4: basically a voluntary organization run by volunteers, funded by the public, 75 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 4: with a remit to help anybody who is in distress 76 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 4: at sea. And I guess although it was sort of 77 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 4: the original idea of the Lifeboat Association came from this 78 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 4: sort of rather patriotic seafaring tradition. Hillary's idea was that 79 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 4: once you set up these organizations locally on the coast, 80 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 4: then actually they could be replicated. So he did have 81 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 4: a sort of internationalist perspective. He thought that these things 82 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 4: would be would mushroom, you know, across the globe, and 83 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 4: that we would have lifebreat associations everywhere. I'm not sure 84 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 4: if that's true, but certainly the Lifeboat Association is still 85 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 4: alive and well in the UK and it does exactly 86 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 4: what he wanted it to do. It looks after people 87 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 4: in distress at sea, without fear or favor, And it's 88 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 4: an example of mutual aid, I guess, because the people 89 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 4: who do this as volunteers are always putting themselves at 90 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 4: risk of peril or drowning, if you like, in order 91 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 4: to try and preserve the lives of others. 92 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a very at least from my memory 93 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: an institution. I've never really heard of anyone having negative 94 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: opinions about lifeboats until relatively recently. Like there was always 95 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 2: a lifeboat shaped thing that you could put money in, 96 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: like a donation box, and people just. 97 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: Put money in it, and no one was like, oh, 98 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: I don't like the lifeboats. But recently, I suppose I've 99 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: come under fire from Britain. First for. 100 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: I think they would phrase it as like encouraging people 101 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: to take the risk of traveling on small boats to 102 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: the United Kingdom to claim asylum. And can you characterize 103 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: I don't want you to characterize that attack because it's 104 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 2: relatively easy to characterize and it's you know, it doesn't 105 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: need much explaining. 106 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: It's stupid. 107 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: But the response to that, like, because I think it 108 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 2: has been quite it's easy for people in America to 109 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 2: see Britain as like a parochial island full of turfs. 110 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 2: But I think actually those people were still like most 111 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: people were pretty I guess, offended by the thought that 112 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: we'd allow people to drown rather than coming to our 113 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: country rate to claim asylum. Is that fair statement, Yeah, 114 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: I think so. 115 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 4: I mean I think it was astonishing actually, or I 116 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 4: think it astonished people that the Lifeboat Association would be 117 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 4: politicized in the way that that was attempted by the right. 118 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: The whole idea of. 119 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 4: Of of of picking and choosing who one would rescue 120 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 4: at sea is simply preposterous. And as you say, I mean, 121 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 4: you know, the Lifeboat Association is widely supported. I mean 122 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 4: you tend to see offices of the Lifeboat Association at seasides, 123 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 4: so you know, this is a you know, the environment 124 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 4: is the holiday environment, it's the beach environment. 125 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 3: It's part of being together. 126 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 4: In a place which is enjoyed by people together, but 127 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 4: which also has its risks. And I mean, the first 128 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 4: time I think, you know, I came across the Lifeboat 129 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 4: Association was was actually through an appeal that was made 130 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 4: through a very popular and well known BBC television program 131 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 4: for children, which was called Blue Peter. And you know, 132 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 4: they funded a boat by asking kids to send in 133 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 4: milk bottle tops which could be melted down and turned 134 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 4: into anyuminium or whatever it was. And then you know, 135 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 4: this is how they funded a lifeboat. I mean, so 136 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 4: this you know, lifeboats aren't deeply routed I think, I mean, 137 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 4: the support for lifeboats are deeply rooted in people's psyche 138 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 4: in this country. 139 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: And as I say, I think it was it was interesting. 140 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 4: I guess that these calls from the rights that the 141 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 4: Lifeboat Association was somehow doing wrong in looking after migrant boats. 142 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 4: I mean, the small boats, really vulnerable dinghies that were 143 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 4: being sailed across the Channel. I just think the the 144 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 4: it gained absolutely no traction because it simply didn't speak 145 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 4: to people's public perceptor or deeply held perceptions if you like, 146 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 4: of the role of this association. 147 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's been a really significant campaign to dehumanize 148 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: migrants in the UK, even perhaps to a degree greater 149 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: than we've seen in much of the US, although there's 150 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: complete bipartisan consensus that we should criminalize people coming here 151 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: in the United States too. And I spent people will 152 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: have heard that I spent like the last week driving 153 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: along the border seeing little children forced to be held 154 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: in the desert with no shade and no water like 155 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: it's it's also very brutal here. But I think it 156 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: says something that that's an institution that looks like that 157 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: was a line that wasn't crossable, I guess by the 158 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: right and this demonization of migrants. So we're having established 159 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: that this is a very cherished and important institution. Can 160 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: we talk about how mutual aid is something that because 161 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: I think it can seem understandably to people who have 162 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: been educated in the sort of neoliberal consent. Certainly it 163 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: is very common in schools and universities in both of 164 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: our countries. How this has in fact been like part 165 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 2: of human history for as long as as people have 166 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: been living in societies, and how it's a natural human 167 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: response to want to do this. 168 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 169 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 4: So I mean, I think this takes us back to 170 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 4: kropotkins theorization, if you like, of mutual aid. So I 171 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 4: mean talking about sort of you know, our neoliberal culture. 172 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 4: I mean, Cropotkin's writing in a time where you have 173 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 4: a similar kind of individualism being stoked, and it's being 174 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 4: stoked particularly through a notion of social Darwinism. So the 175 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 4: idea that fitness is linked to or that the survival 176 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 4: is linked to individual fitness, and that competition is the 177 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 4: basic rule of life, and that therefore not only individuals, 178 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 4: but states as well should be, you know, pitting themselves 179 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 4: against each other in order to gain advantage and to 180 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 4: secure their own well being. And Kropotkin wanted to sort 181 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 4: of challenge this argument, and so the way he did 182 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 4: it was to say two things. One that biological fitness 183 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 4: is not linked to competition. It's actually linked to cooperation. 184 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 4: So individuals in any species cannot survive unless they have 185 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 4: support from others in their species. I mean, it's simply, 186 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 4: you know, that's that's how biology works. So whatever advantage 187 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 4: that individuals might might you know, acquire, actually their well 188 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 4: being depends on the cooperation or the collective practices that 189 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 4: they have with others. So he recognized that there was 190 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 4: into species competition, but he said basically, within species, survivalist 191 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 4: based in corporation. And from that he then said, you know, 192 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 4: one of the things that we can learn from this, 193 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 4: from this sort of re under or from this sort 194 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 4: of review of social Darwinism, is to think about how 195 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 4: we can encourage cooperation as a moral value, and he said, 196 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 4: you know, the way then we because that's a good thing. 197 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 4: Surely it's you know, if we're biologically attuned to cooperate, 198 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 4: then why don't we make this a principle of our lives. 199 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 4: And he said that the way that we should do 200 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 4: this is by configuring our social arrangements or our environments, 201 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 4: if you like, in ways that enabled us to see 202 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 4: that we were we were affected by the same sorts 203 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 4: of problems, that we had affinities with each other, that 204 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 4: there was a basic relationship that we had with each other, 205 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 4: not only with family members and friends, but with strangers too, 206 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: and that once we could understand that, then actually we 207 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 4: could sort of organize our social lives in ways that 208 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: were supportive of others when they were in positions of 209 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 4: need or when they're in situation of need. 210 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, So how would one go about doing that because 211 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: it can seem look where I live, thousands of people 212 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: live on the street, right and I can watch people 213 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: every day walk past people who just need a little 214 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 2: bit of help and not give it to them, and 215 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 2: it can be very disheartening. And so how do we 216 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: begin to organize in a way that recognizes our sort 217 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 2: of mutual dependence. 218 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 4: So I mean, part of the arguments, I think is 219 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 4: that people will fill the gaps when they see that 220 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 4: others are in need. And that's exactly what the Lifeboat 221 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 4: Association does, and that's exactly what happened during the pandemic 222 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 4: for example. So you know, not surprisingly, one of the 223 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 4: things that happened in the first weeks of the pandemic 224 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 4: was the mushrooming of groups that call themselves mutual aid societies, 225 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 4: mutual aid associations, and they were networked. I mean, somebody 226 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 4: set up a website so that you know, people could 227 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 4: see exactly where these groups were. They were networked in 228 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 4: the UK. I think there were some relationships that were 229 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 4: even transatlantic. Part of the argument is that you don't 230 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 4: have to plan this, and in fact, mutual aid is 231 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 4: an unplanned is best thought of as an unplanned response. 232 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 4: But I guess the other thing is, or the question 233 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 4: that mutual aid begs is that, you know, if people 234 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 4: get together in times to fill the gaps, if you 235 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 4: like to provide support for people who are in need, 236 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 4: then how do they sustain those organizations over periods of 237 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 4: time without suffering burnout and all the rest of it? 238 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: And I think that really then depends on. 239 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 4: You know, sort of establishing I guess, I mean, you know, 240 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 4: that's again why we should take some heart. I think 241 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 4: from the Lifeboat Association, it's been going a long time. 242 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 4: It is possible to do these things, but it's difficult, 243 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 4: and it does require that you learn how to cooperate 244 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 4: with people who you might not otherwise work with, you 245 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 4: might not otherwise think you have anything in common with, 246 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 4: but where you find that common ground in order to 247 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 4: undertake practical activities in collaboration with each other. 248 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's very question. I'm always like. 249 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen, I don't know if you were familiar 250 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: with it's been in the southern border of the United States. 251 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 2: We had a large group of migrants coming here from 252 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: Central America who became like a sort of talking point 253 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: in the midterms through no fault of their own right, 254 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: and they were held at the US border and then 255 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: tear gas from the sort of Tommy Hilfiger gist out 256 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 2: store in San Diego. And I was really impressed with, 257 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: Like I was there trying to help with my friends 258 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: and sort of trying to do anarchist things, but also 259 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: there were people who were older ladies from churches and 260 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: people from mosques and people from synagogues, and very very 261 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: much willing to work together, and you know, like you know, 262 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: we'd go to Costco together and spend thousands of thousands 263 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: on water and nappies for babies and such. But I 264 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: think getting past that initial sort of I'm not a 265 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: person who worked for people who go to church too, 266 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: like what this person wants to help and so do 267 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: I was what allowed that to happen? Can you perhaps 268 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: think of other examples that people I'm interested in things 269 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 2: like the lifeboats, which people might not see through the 270 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: lens of mutual aid because there's such established institutions that 271 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: they there's an assumption. I think a lot of people 272 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: probably think that there's some kind of state involvement with 273 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: the lifeboats, right, and the same with lots of sort 274 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 2: of the societies that exist to prevent cruelty to animals 275 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: and children and that kind of thing. Those aren't state 276 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: funded either in the UK. Can you think of other 277 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: examples of mutual aid that people might have sort of 278 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: not realized are entirely driven by society and not the state. 279 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 4: Well, I suppose I mean the best or one of 280 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 4: the best examples recently in the US context is the 281 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 4: establishment of the Common Ground Collective after Hurricane Katrina. So 282 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 4: the aid that first went into the people who were 283 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 4: stricken by Katrina was not provided by the state. In fact, 284 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 4: you know, that came a lot later, but it was 285 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 4: provided by people who, you know, by by groups of 286 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 4: people who who thought that they, you know, they could 287 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 4: offer medical support or set up systems of you or help. 288 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 3: Set up systems of of of. 289 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 4: Basic supply and rescue, and and and that's exactly what happened, 290 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 4: and the Common Ground Collective was established as a result 291 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 4: of it. I mean, you find this sort of thing, 292 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 4: I mean, I mean, it's it's fairly usual in times 293 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 4: of you know, sudden emergency and crisis that actually the 294 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 4: people who who do the hands on work of actually 295 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 4: taking people off off you know, the how the roofs 296 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 4: of flooded houses and all the rest of it. 297 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,239 Speaker 3: These are local people. Typically, they're they're not the agencies 298 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 3: who often you know, take a lot of time to 299 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 3: get there. I mean. 300 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 4: The other examples, I think in the American context, again 301 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 4: which are often rooted around church groups, but certainly a 302 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 4: lot of black people's organizations which you know, who couldn't 303 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 4: you know, where they couldn't access support services, set up 304 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 4: mutual aid societies because that was the if you like, 305 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 4: the only alternative that they would have in order to 306 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 4: provide you know, sort of clubs for their kids and 307 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 4: breakfast clubs and any kind of welfare at all. That 308 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 4: that was the that was the root of it. The 309 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 4: other example, I mean Kropotkin looks at I mean these 310 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 4: are nineteenth cent nineteenth century example which is sort of 311 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 4: something that's later absorbed by the state. Are the uh 312 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 4: the the the the insurance arrangements that were that were 313 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 4: made by miners uh to to look after those who 314 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 4: were injured down the mines and their families in the 315 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 4: event of their death. So you know, they were setting 316 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 4: up their own systems of contribution to ensure sure that 317 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 4: those families would be provided for if the worst came 318 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 4: to the worst. And you know, eventually this gets taken 319 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 4: up by the station, it's sold back to you as 320 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 4: national insurance. But these systems are you know, they're established 321 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 4: essentially by local people for their own benefits. 322 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, perhaps we ought to talk about that because there's 323 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 2: a lot of these spontaneous societal things, especially in the 324 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: UK that are corupted by the state and then sold 325 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 2: back to us and then gradually stripped away of the 326 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 2: very essence of what they're supposed to be. You're at 327 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 2: the National Health Service being another example. Can you talk 328 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: about the danger of that kind of state maybe dangers 329 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: who are on word, But there can be a state 330 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: capture of mutual aid efforts, which can sometimes one might argue, 331 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 2: always like strip them of the essence of what they are. 332 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: Is that fair to say? 333 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 4: Well, it certainly changes. I mean, so state welfare changes 334 00:18:54,840 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 4: the relationships that people have to those institutions, and and 335 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 4: so in one sense it it alleviates the burden of 336 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 4: of of running those institutions. 337 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 3: But in the on the. 338 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 4: Other hand, it it does two things. I think one 339 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 4: is that it tends to encourage the idea that looking 340 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 4: after each other is somebody else's responsibility. So actually it diminishes, 341 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 4: or it disincentivizes the sort of the. 342 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 3: That that. 343 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 4: Stimulus to help each other directly. So mutual aid is 344 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 4: a kind of direct action, if you like. Whereas you know, 345 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 4: once we give these these processes over to the state, 346 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 4: then actually we start to see people in different in 347 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 4: different ways. So we do start to get the language 348 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 4: of scrounging or of you know, idleness, deserving, undeserving poor. 349 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 4: All of those things come from the idea that we're 350 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 4: paying into an institution and not necessarily being guaranteed that 351 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 4: we're getting value money. So we start to see the 352 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 4: institution slightly differently. And I think the other thing is 353 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 4: that the I mean, the worry I guess of of 354 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 4: that sort of co optation is that it's it conceals 355 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 4: the other things that that the state does. So welfare 356 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 4: is the last thing, if you like, that that states 357 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 4: assume as a responsibility, and it and it provides a gloss, 358 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 4: if you like, on the law and order function that 359 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 4: the state serves and and somehow sort of makes the 360 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 4: state look a bit friendlier than. 361 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 3: Perhaps we should think it is. 362 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 4: And I mean this, you know, when the I suppose that, 363 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 4: I mean, the term that was used in the in 364 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 4: the British context, in the in the immediate post war 365 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 4: period was not the welfare state. It was the warfare state. 366 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 4: Because the idea was that the introduction of welfare, which 367 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 4: starts really after the after the Second World War, concealed 368 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 4: the violence that the state was otherwise perpetuating elsewhere. 369 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's very It's something we should consider 370 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 2: very strongly when we're looking at these things, right. I 371 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 2: think it also strips the like the person to person 372 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: aspect of mutual aid from mutual aid like the certainly 373 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 2: the most common sort of mutual A responses I've been 374 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 2: part of to health crises and then to along the border. 375 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 2: And part of what makes that very meaningful is people saying, like, 376 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 2: you know, this is a this is a line between 377 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 2: two states, but it's not a line between two people 378 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,959 Speaker 2: or two communities, right, And you are welcome because I 379 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: am of this community and I want you to come here, 380 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 2: which you do not get when you know there's a 381 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: man in green combat pants throwing MRIs from the back 382 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: of a pickup truck, like that doesn't. 383 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 4: That's right, But equally I suppose, I mean that's the 384 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 4: other thing. I mean, that's that's kind of what I 385 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 4: was trying to get at. 386 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 3: That. 387 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 4: You know, once you have once you have state welfare, 388 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 4: you have concepts of access through citizenship, and that really 389 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 4: informed is the idea that there's a there's a right 390 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 4: of access and then there's a there's an exclusion that 391 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 4: necessarily follows from that, and so you know, the relationship 392 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 4: becomes much more transactional rather than which is the way 393 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 4: that the mutual aid is couched in in. 394 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: The anarchist lexicon. 395 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 4: You know, it's it's it's it's driven by by altruism 396 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 4: and and and giving without without the expectation of reward. 397 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I think that's very important. It's it doesn't 398 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: imply a power or an expectation of sort of reciprocity. 399 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: It's it. 400 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 2: I forget exactly where I read this. Terrible at these things, 401 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 2: but like I guess you don't do it in a 402 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: selfish sense, but it benefits you as well as a person. 403 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: You are giving to look in because those people are 404 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 2: part of your community. 405 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: Is that fair? 406 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 2: And like you shouldn't be complete if people are suffering, 407 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 2: like right next to you. 408 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I suppose there's a sort of there's a 409 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 4: there's an argument to say that. 410 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 3: I mean that that comes from the from the. 411 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 4: Notion of of of recasting what it is to be 412 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 4: an individual. So you know, you're your your personal enrichment 413 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 4: actually relies on the relationships that you can cultivate with 414 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 4: other people. So you know, the the quality of those 415 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 4: relationships is actually something that of course benefits you. 416 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 3: But I think the I mean, one of the things. 417 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 3: Can tells this story about. 418 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 4: A child drowning in a river, and he imagines three 419 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 4: people standing on the river bank. One of them is 420 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 4: a religious believer, the second one is he calls an 421 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 4: ordinary bourgeois a utilitarian, and the third one he doesn't 422 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 4: describe at all. And he says, you know what what 423 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 4: happens when they see this child in the river. And 424 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 4: he says, well, the religious person is wondering, you know, 425 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 4: I should go and save the child because I'll reap 426 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 4: my reward in heaven. And the utilitarian is thinking, you know, 427 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 4: if I if I save this child, then I'm going 428 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 4: to feel really good about myself, and so therefore I 429 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 4: should do it. And while they're while they're sort of 430 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,239 Speaker 4: going through that process of reasoning, the third person has 431 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 4: just jumped in and saved the child. 432 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 3: And that's mutual aid. 433 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I think that's very good. Yeah, it comes 434 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: from Yeah, it doesn't need to be like overly theorized 435 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: to suppose. Yeah, and it really doesn't, like I've never 436 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 2: I think the construction of mutual aid is important because 437 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 2: it allows us to join the dots across the world 438 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: and across time and to see the relationship with the state. 439 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: But it doesn't need you don't need to have read 440 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 2: Cropotkin to like, I know, a big it's sprung up 441 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: here a lot in the pandemic too, right, like free 442 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 2: shops and certainly for older people or people who are compromised. 443 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 2: I remember breaking thousands of loaves of bread from the 444 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 2: pizza shop down the street wasn't able to open, so 445 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 2: they would bring me flower and I would make bread 446 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: and we would take it to people, and things like 447 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: that were very spontaneous and didn't particularly need like theorizing 448 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: in terms of crow Popkin. But sadly they sort of 449 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: we lost a lot of that with the you know, 450 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 2: with the reduction in the severity of the pandemic, I guess, 451 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 2: and I think it's important to remember that that was 452 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: a natural response on one that we should cultivate. 453 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. 454 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I mean there were all sorts 455 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 4: of things that were going on here. I mean there 456 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 4: were people who were sewing up scrubs for health workers, 457 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 4: delivering lunches to health workers, you know, as well as 458 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 4: just you know, the checking on the neighbors making sure 459 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 4: that people were okay. So yeah, I mean it took 460 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 4: you know, multiple different forms, and yeah, I mean it 461 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 4: is difficult because you know, once real life as it 462 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 4: were sort of returned and the and the lockdowns were relaxed, 463 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 4: you know, people have all kinds of other demands on 464 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 4: their time, and again we sort of then get used 465 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 4: to thinking that, you know, somebody else is going to 466 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 4: pick up the pieces now. 467 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do think that that's part of that 468 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: lock down nostalgia, which is bizarrely already occurring three years. 469 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: Down the line. 470 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 2: But people look back and think, oh, well, it wasn't 471 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 2: that bad, and obviously thousands of people died that we 472 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 2: shouldn't overlook that. But part of what people looking back 473 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 2: on is that sense of community, which I think so 474 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 2: many of us lack. The alienation is very real for 475 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 2: a lot of us, and so those mutual A groups 476 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: or watchapp groups and things gave people a real sense 477 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: of belonging. I think that's the same A lot of 478 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 2: people felt that way in twenty twenty, for obviously, there 479 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 2: was an uprising in the United States which gave people 480 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 2: a sense of purpose which maybe they they're not feeling 481 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: anymore if people are interested in I guess there's learning 482 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 2: and there's doing, and that they can be distinct or 483 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: they can be done at the same time, and we 484 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 2: can learn by doing. And where would people start they 485 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 2: want to start their reading? Are their texts that you'd recommend, 486 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 2: that you know, are not the size of a breeze 487 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 2: block that people might approachable, Well. 488 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 4: You can get I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm I 489 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 4: mean Potkin's book Mutual Aid is quite long. I mean, 490 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 4: it's the last two chapters really that are the ones 491 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 4: to read, and that's freely available online. 492 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 3: It's I mean, it's a very nineteenth century kind of argument. 493 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 3: I mean. 494 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 4: The other I mean, the other one that I really 495 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 4: like is Cindy Milstein's Anarchism and Its Aspirations, and that's short, 496 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 4: it's very accessible, and she has this discussion of mutual 497 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 4: aid where she she links it to what she calls 498 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 4: the ethical Compass, and I think that speaks really nicely 499 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 4: to the to the you know, the principles and the sentiments, 500 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 4: if you like, of mutual aid, that it is this 501 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 4: kind of thick relationship that people cultivate but not necessarily 502 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 4: a not necessarily with a view to living in sort 503 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 4: of permanently in community with each other, but actually to 504 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 4: change the dynamics of the the kind of the cities 505 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 4: we live in and the detachments that we not only 506 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 4: have but also sometimes kind of value. We don't necessarily 507 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 4: want to live in each other's pockets. But actually that 508 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 4: doesn't mean to say that we can't practice much live 509 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 4: with each other. 510 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that'd be a great, great place for 511 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: people to start if they want to read a tiny 512 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 2: bio of Cropotkin. Dog Section Press has an excellent, excellent 513 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of their great Anarchist book. 514 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: I think it's very approachable for. 515 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, they're also they're also available. 516 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: Online, Yes they are. 517 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 518 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're illustrated. 519 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're very beautifully illustrated. 520 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: It's been a good one for me to assign to 521 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: students and have them approach anarchism from a non prejudice perspective, 522 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: I suppose, which is which can be hard? Like I 523 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: always remember coming to the US for the first time 524 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,239 Speaker 2: when I was twenty one, and like, I don't think 525 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: I presented in a way that was particularly affable to 526 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 2: the Transport Security Administration. But what are you doing here? 527 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: I'm pH d student, what are you studying political violence 528 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: and the anarchist unions? I was immediately sent to the 529 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: little room that you go to, UH and I had 530 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 2: some more questions to answer. But I think it's it's 531 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: really important to present anarchism, I think through the lens 532 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: of mut because I think so often it's viewed through 533 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 2: the lens of like a predilection for chaos and violence, 534 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: which is the opposite of what you're doing when you 535 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: know you're giving someone a blanket or something like it's 536 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: and so I think if people listening will at least 537 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 2: be familiar with the concept of anarchism and mutual aid 538 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 2: and not see it in that prejudicial way. But I 539 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 2: think if we can present it to other people, you know, 540 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 2: you're doing anarchism everyone was doing getting start the pandemic 541 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: when they were sewing masks like you say, or home 542 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: brewing hand sanitizer. 543 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that's I think that's really important 544 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 4: actually to the to the argument that the mutual aid 545 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,479 Speaker 4: is for everyone, so you know, you're not anarchists are 546 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,719 Speaker 4: not trying to change people's heads or get them to 547 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 4: think in particular ways when they talk about mutual aid. 548 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 4: What they're doing is tapping into a propensity that exists 549 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 4: within all of us. And what an anarchists are saying 550 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 4: is that if you, you know, if you push organizations 551 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 4: in particular directions and actually you've got a better way 552 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 4: or a better means of a better sort of environment 553 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 4: within which you can sustain those practices. But mutual aid 554 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 4: itself is not about being an anarchist. It's about being 555 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 4: a human being. 556 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder so if people want to sort of 557 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: build ways of taking care of each other without the 558 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 2: state where they are, maybe they can see a problem, 559 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 2: right that hasn't been addressed by the state, like one 560 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 2: of those holes that you spoke about, or a problem 561 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 2: that the state is addressing inadequately or in an undesirable way. 562 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: How would they go about? Like, do you have advice 563 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,959 Speaker 2: people looking to start? It can be especially if you're 564 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: not on social media, which I know we've had people email, 565 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: but like, I'm not on Facebook or Twitter? And how 566 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 2: do I organize mutual aid? Do you have any suggestions 567 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: for that? 568 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 3: Yeah? 569 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 4: So, I mean there are, I mean there are normally 570 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 4: sort of in any I mean certainly where I live, 571 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 4: which is a small market town. I mean there is 572 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 4: a community center there. I mean there are churches too, 573 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 4: but I mean there is a sort of a local 574 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 4: civic center, if you like, which has all kinds of 575 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 4: adverts for local groups and activities. There's a I mean, 576 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 4: we're a town of sanctuary, so we're one of the 577 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 4: places that migrants are sent to in order to register. 578 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 4: And the people who are involved in the Town of Sanctuary, 579 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 4: they meet them, greet them, try and give them information 580 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 4: that's useful to them. They run English language classes, They 581 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 4: try and get the kids into swimming pools. 582 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 3: I mean, they're all sorts of things activities that they're doing. 583 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 4: So I think it's a matter of sort of seeing 584 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 4: what's there yea, and then sort of try. I mean 585 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 4: often I think people don't realize the skills they have. 586 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 4: So for example, you know, if they speak more in 587 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 4: one language, it's often really helpful to people who are 588 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 4: arriving in a foreign land or a land that they 589 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 4: don't they're they're not speakers of the native language, you know, 590 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 4: to help translate, to share information, just to point people 591 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 4: in the direction where they can get help from from 592 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 4: other agencies. So I don't think I mean, it seems 593 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 4: to me that you know, mutual aid is not necessarily 594 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 4: trying to sort of say you're not going to enable 595 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 4: people to access support services that are provided. I mean, 596 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 4: even if they're paltry services provided by the state. What 597 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 4: you're trying to do is to meet people's needs. 598 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 3: And there are. 599 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 4: Existing groups and associations which are which will enable you 600 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 4: to do that. I mean, you could go if you 601 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 4: live at the seaside, you could go down to your 602 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 4: local lifeboat association and see if they need a volunteer 603 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 4: to run the office. You know, there are that these 604 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 4: are the sorts of things things that keep these institutions running. 605 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 3: That's the kind of thing that you can do. 606 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,959 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a very good, very good suggest 607 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: for people. 608 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 2: And we don't we don't need to be like turn 609 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 2: our noses up at support for the state where what 610 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: little is available, we should avail ourselves and are the 611 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: people who need. 612 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: It and empower other people to get to Yeah. 613 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And certainly we can't. We can't act as 614 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: if the state doesn't exist at a time where it does. 615 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 2: It's powerful and it can hurt run more people. 616 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 617 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: I think that's Is there anything. 618 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 2: Else you'd like to say before we finish up on 619 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 2: the topic of mutual aid. 620 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 4: No, I think we've covered Yeah, I think we've we've 621 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 4: sort of covered it. I mean, I just I guess 622 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 4: it's a you know, mutual aid is a is The 623 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 4: important thing for me is that mutual aid is a 624 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 4: It's an easy thing and it's and it and it 625 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 4: can build and that's the the and it can be sustained. 626 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 4: That's the joy of it. And I think that's the 627 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 4: brilliant thing about the example of the life but association. Yeah, 628 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 4: we can set up all kinds of things and run them. 629 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 4: We don't need to be told to do it. We 630 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 4: don't need to be told how to do it. 631 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember. 632 00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 2: One of the things that always gives me like a 633 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 2: little spark of joy for such a venerable British institution 634 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 2: with Royal in its name, is that they celebrate for 635 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 2: Hopkins's birthday apparently, Yeah, exactly. They'll post on all their 636 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 2: social media like pictures of cropopkin like a little birthday 637 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 2: cake and the celebrations, which, yeah, I think people should, 638 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 2: you know, take a little moment of joy to celebrate. 639 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: These things that we've already achieved. And I guess trying 640 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 1: to be better. 641 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: Is there is there any way people can find you 642 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 2: on the internet. I don't know if you have social 643 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 2: media or website. 644 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 4: Not on social media, but I'm easily you can find 645 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 4: me at the university at luf for University. 646 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 3: It's lo ugh b O r g H. 647 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: It's one some of my colleagues have struggled with. 648 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 3: It's not easy. 649 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's the easiest post to find me in. 650 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 4: My contact information is there, and if anyone wants to 651 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 4: write to me, then I'm happy to write back. 652 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: Wonderful, Thank you so much pleasure. 653 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 654 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 655 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 656 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 657 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 3: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 658 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 3: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.