1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 2: Man, welcome back to Coast to Coast, George Nori with you. 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 2: Cal Cooper with us, professor of Parapsychology and co director 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: of the Parapsychology Education along with doctor Jeffrey misch Love 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: you've heard of his name at the California Institute for 6 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: Human Science. He's also based at the University of Northampton, 7 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 2: where he supervises a dozen PhD candidates in parapsychology. Cal 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 2: Cooper back on Coast to Coast. His book is called 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: By the Way Telephone Calls from the Dead. Cal Welcome back, 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 2: How are you? 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 3: I'm good, Thanks George, it's good to tell your voice again. 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 3: How are you doing good? 13 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to this. How did you get involved 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 2: in parapsychology. 15 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 3: Oh, that's a really long story. My passion was really 16 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 3: for acting and performing arts and the theater instantly. I 17 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 3: just recently went to see The Woman in Black. I'd 18 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: seen that a long time ago, but I went to 19 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 3: see it again and it never fails to spook the audience, 20 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 3: which is all based on a true story called the 21 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 3: Cheltenham Ghost. So that goes all the way back to 22 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 3: my early reading, and it was going to the library 23 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 3: when I was at school. There was a small section 24 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 3: with probably about six books all on the paranormal that 25 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 3: me and my classmates used to go and look at. 26 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 3: And they included things such as the Lockness Monster, Bigfoot, 27 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 3: or the classic footage that we see in the footprints 28 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 3: that were taken in plaster. But they included pictures of 29 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 3: alleged ghosts, which fascinated me as to what was going 30 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 3: on when you saw what looked like an apparition or 31 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 3: a face in some sort of image that someone's describing. 32 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 3: But they also talked about the investigations of Harry Price, 33 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 3: the famous ghost hunter of the nineteen twenties through to 34 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 3: the late nineteen forties, and he was well known for 35 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 3: investigating a place called Balley Rectory in Essex. And the 36 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: case that fascinated me the most was called the Haunting 37 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 3: of Cash's Gap and that was on the Isle of 38 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 3: Man and that involved the curious case of a talking 39 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 3: mongoose called Jeff, and Jeff could perform psychic feats and 40 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 3: speak in different languages and plague this farm family. So 41 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 3: as I read that as a kid, I just thought, 42 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 3: this is bizarre. You know, this guy is looking into 43 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 3: all sorts of weird things with people that are adamant 44 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 3: about their claims. What's going on? So I continued with 45 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 3: what I was doing with acting. I did a number 46 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: of plays as a kid. I did street dance as 47 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 3: a side thing, and I thought that was really going 48 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: to be my career. And by the time I got 49 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 3: to college, so sixteen to eighteen, I did a number 50 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 3: of things. I took on psychology because I thought it 51 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 3: could be useful and certainly as some sort of fallback 52 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 3: later on, I could use psychology for a number of professions. 53 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 3: I did photography and electronics and filmmaking as well, And 54 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: then I started to look for degrees again as a 55 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 3: fallback in psychology while I kept acting on the side. 56 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 3: But it sort of fell by the way because I 57 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: rediscovered that parapsychology was a thing and it could be 58 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: studied at university level, and there were a number of 59 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 3: universities in the UK, certainly way more now today, but 60 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 3: there were a number then doing parapsychology as part of 61 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: an undergraduate degree a bachelor's degree. So I looked at 62 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 3: a number of universities and went to visit them, and 63 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 3: I settled with the University of Northampton, and essentially the 64 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: rest is history. I stayed in academia ever since. 65 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: Good for you now to those who might not know, 66 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: Parapsychology is a scientific study of alleged psychic phenomena and 67 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: anomalous experiences, such as telepathy, precognition, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, and others. 68 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: And it started in the nineteenth century when they investigated 69 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: mediumship in spiritualism. 70 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 3: Didn't it, Yeah, spot on, I couldn't put it better. 71 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 3: So it did begin there is because of the rise 72 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 3: of spiritualism. So in the eighteen forties in New York, 73 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 3: I suppose the thing that really kick started scientific interest 74 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: because there'd been loads of writing on people claiming they 75 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 3: could contact the dead and on apparitions and hauntings and 76 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: other things in various works and various journals of the time. 77 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: But it was because of the Fox sisters and their claims. 78 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 3: There was all sorts of banging and wraps around the 79 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 3: family home, and later on the eldest sister, who had 80 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: already got married and moved away, she joined her two 81 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: younger sisters and they started practicing as mediums. And there 82 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: was a whole controversy behind their mediumship when one of 83 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 3: them had taken to alcoholism and went to the newspapers 84 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 3: and said that essentially they were doing it via fraudulent means. 85 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,239 Speaker 3: One of the things that people heard in the seance 86 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: was cracking of their cracking sound, and she said it 87 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 3: was due to their toes. They were kind of moving 88 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 3: their toes inside their shoes and making a cracking sound 89 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 3: and other things. And once they made that claim, there 90 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: was no coming back, because all the sisters were professing 91 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 3: that it was fraud. But anyway, other people came forward 92 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 3: naturally saying that they could do this, they were mediums. 93 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 3: More reports in the newspapers about haunted houses and people 94 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 3: seeing ghosts, and so by the early eighteen eighties eighteen 95 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 3: eighty two, in fact, a number of scholars here in 96 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 3: the UK at the University of Cambridge had got together philosophers, psychologists, 97 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 3: early physicists, you name it, and at Trinity College. Within 98 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 3: that they formed the Society for Psychical Research, and a 99 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 3: couple of years later, other scholars of similar notability, like 100 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 3: William James, they formed the American Society for Psychical Research. 101 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 3: Had a slightly different remit because the American branch was 102 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 3: trying to demonstrate that science already had the answer. So 103 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 3: we've got all these claims, let's put what we know 104 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 3: of science to these strange experiences. We think that the 105 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 3: British side have got it wrong. There isn't really anything 106 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 3: new to learn here, it's very unlikely. But within their 107 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 3: first ten years of formation they realized that actually there 108 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 3: are some instances of mediums and psychics. There are some 109 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: instances of people seeing ghosts that didn't appear to have 110 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 3: a conventional explanation. So should we be looking at something 111 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: else or is science incomplete here? So what do we do? 112 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 3: So they were very much on par with each other 113 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 3: from that point going on. So that formed the basis 114 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 3: of it. And I'm sure you've heard a lot over 115 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 3: the years on coast to coast am about the Rhymes 116 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 3: and the Rhine Research Center. So moving forward with all 117 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 3: of those psychical researchers, Joseph Banks, Ryan and Lowisa Rhime, 118 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 3: they were very much investigating mediums and psychics. But it 119 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: was because of a scholar called William McDougal who was 120 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 3: from Scotland. He was over in the United States, had 121 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: worked at Harvard in the early nineteen twenties on the 122 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 3: very first psychic tests really at a university, and he 123 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: gained a deanery position at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, 124 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 3: and he asked the Rhyins to go over and establish 125 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 3: psychical research into an actual science, get it recognized by 126 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 3: the university system. So they rebranded the term that had 127 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: come from German parapsychology, meaning beyond psychology, beyond what we 128 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: currently know of the study of the mind. And this 129 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 3: is where they developed all kinds of routine methodological testing, 130 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 3: such as the Xena cards your star, your cross, your 131 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 3: wavy line, your circle, your square, and having five of 132 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 3: those in every pack, so that they were working on 133 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: this five out of twenty five chance rating of card 134 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 3: after card after card, seeing if people could get it 135 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 3: right in all kinds of different ways of doing it, 136 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: testing the blind, testing children, testing people on caffeine, testing 137 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 3: them on different stimulants, looking at distance. And so they 138 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 3: moved away from the hauntings and the mediumship and took 139 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: everything into the lab to actually do this kind of testing. 140 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 3: They set up the Journal of Parapsychology. They established the 141 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 3: Parapsychological Association. And they also got the Parapsychological Association recognized 142 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 3: as an affiliate of the American Association for the Advancement 143 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: of Science in nineteen sixty nine, and it still is 144 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 3: an affiliate of that to this day. So it's a 145 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: recognized science. 146 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 4: And I know you're going to watch some after hearing this. 147 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 4: This is an amazing story. 148 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: We've got Stephen and Malachi Gregory in Nelson, New Zealand. 149 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 4: Now I understand that Malachi, who's eight almost nine years 150 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 4: old now, was suffering with not just one or two warts, 151 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 4: but I mean as significant outbreak of warts all over 152 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 4: his body, so significant it impacted his ability to really function. 153 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, he was having trouble even holding a pencil 154 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 5: to right. It was Ty's book actually that got me 155 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 5: thinking about it. 156 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. 157 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 4: It is an amazing immuno modulator, and so I can 158 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 4: see that it would work. And so at what point 159 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 4: did you see that there was actually improvement it's really 160 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 4: going to work. 161 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: Well, look, we. 162 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 5: Really started to notice it around twelve weeks. You can 163 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 5: see these things actually getting smaller and smaller and then 164 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 5: going down to with just a little red marks the 165 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 5: whole things are gone and we're talking about what's you 166 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 5: know one that size for Wanner? I thought, no way, 167 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 5: that's gonna Wow. It's just been miraculous to see him 168 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 5: get into a pair of shoes. 169 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: Yes, how wonderful. 170 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 5: It's great to see him so happy. 171 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: And yes, it absolutely wonderful for instead of seen it 172 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: that is blown away. Hi, this is awesome. Yeah, this 173 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: is awesome. 174 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 6: Another amazing story. Why we're talking about Carnivora call them 175 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 6: to awaken your immune system and protect yourself now called 176 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 6: one eight sixty six eight three six eighty seven thirty five. 177 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 6: That's one eight six six eight three six eighty seven 178 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 6: thirty five, or visit Carnivora dot com c A r 179 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 6: niv O r A carnivora dot com. 180 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 2: Cal would you say parapsychology also investigates the possibility of 181 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 2: ghosts in the afterlife. 182 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, it absolutely still does. And I'm sure you still 183 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: get now and then on this show, Lloyd our back. 184 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 3: So Lloyd is one of the few parapsychologists world wind 185 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 3: who's kind of primarily for on ghosts and hauntings. I 186 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 3: would still say that that's my major interest. I don't 187 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 3: know if you can see me the listeners certainly can't. 188 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 3: But just over my shoulder there is Alex Tannas. Alex 189 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 3: Tannas was involved in haunting investigation with doctor Carlo Sosis 190 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 3: and Lloyd at the American SPR in the nineteen eighties. 191 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 3: I would say there's about five or six parapsychologists worldwide 192 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 3: that have got a main interest in ghosts and hauntings. 193 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 3: Why should we be interested, Well, it's not as clear 194 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 3: cut as the ghosts exists or not. What we can 195 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 3: say is absolutely people do report what we label as 196 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 3: ghosts and apparitions, but they can be a number of 197 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 3: things people report, and they did. In the late eighteen eighties, 198 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 3: it was something that the SPR noted that people report 199 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 3: apparitions of living people, people who have not died. They're 200 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: still about and yet people have seen an apparition of 201 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 3: someone and clearly they weren't there because that person in 202 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: the real state, the physical form is somewhere outs and 203 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,719 Speaker 3: the two times could not have married up unless they 204 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 3: have an exact double, which is also a possibility. But 205 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 3: we could have apparitions of the dead that just seemed 206 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: to walk the same path over and over again. They 207 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 3: show no recognition for anyone We could have those kinds 208 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 3: of apparitions that seem to be walking on a different floor, 209 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 3: such as we know the floor has been raised over time, 210 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 3: and yet when we see the apparition, we can only 211 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 3: see it from the knees above because the knees are 212 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 3: in the floor, although walking up a staircase that isn't 213 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 3: there anymore. We could have apparitions that have full awareness 214 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 3: of you and seem to interact and could even possibly communicate. 215 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 3: This brings me back to the Cheltenham Ghost, where the 216 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 3: Woman in Black story is based on. In that instance, 217 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 3: it was originally called the Morton Ghost. The person who 218 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 3: wrote the report was a young medical student, and she 219 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 3: documented the family's encounters with this woman who is in 220 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 3: a black morning gown with a veil over and covered 221 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 3: her face with a handkerchief, so they rarely ever saw 222 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 3: what her face looked like. They're just her eyes and 223 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 3: they've done all sorts of experiment. They put fine thread 224 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 3: over the stairway to see if the apparition will break 225 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 3: the thread. They tried to walk after the apparition and 226 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 3: corner it to touch it, but it would manage to 227 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 3: walk out the way or disappear at the point they 228 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: were trying to touch it. There were multiple witnesses. It 229 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: was seen in the house and out in the garden, 230 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 3: so it was interesting that it lasted so long they 231 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 3: could experiment with it. A researcher called Tyrell, George Tyrell. 232 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 3: He wrote a book called Apparitions, which started off as 233 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: a big study of survey study in a lecture, but 234 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 3: in his book it's a really good one you can 235 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 3: still find to this day. He found four distinct categories 236 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 3: of apparitions, like the kinds I've been talking about, So 237 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 3: there are different kinds. They mean different things, you know. 238 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 3: They tell us something about hallucinations and whether we are 239 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 3: projecting these things. They tell us about the possibility of 240 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 3: projecting ourselves as apparitions, if it's apparitions of the living, 241 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 3: and that potentially something of the mind, personality, awareness could 242 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: survive outside of the body past the point of permanent 243 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 3: bodily death. And these even formed part of the evidence 244 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 3: that we put forward for the Bigelow Essay competitions. So 245 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 3: Robert Bigelow came forward said, okay, biggest prize in twenty 246 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 3: five thousand words, what's the best evidence to date science 247 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 3: has for life after death? In my essay that I 248 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 3: did with colleagues. I did a whole section on hauntings 249 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 3: that included the Cheltenham Ghost deathbed visions, So when you're dying, 250 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: someone is dying and things are seen around the deathbed 251 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 3: and loads of people put forward things like this. Doctor 252 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 3: Jeffrey Michelo he got it with based on all the 253 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 3: years he'd worked on you thinking aloud. 254 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 2: He won the prize, didn't he He won the prize. 255 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, good for jeff He got five hundred thousand dollars. 256 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 3: There was a second prize that was three hundred thousand 257 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 3: that went to Dr Pim van Lommel who's a cardiologist 258 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: and he wrote mainly on near death experiences. And third 259 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 3: prize went to doctor Leah Rugby one hundred and fifty 260 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 3: thousand dollars, who's a colleague over here in the UK. 261 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 3: He was in Germany for a time, but he's also 262 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 3: a fellow of the University of Northampton. He's now out 263 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 3: in Las Vegas working for Robert Bigelm. 264 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: There are two people that you have looked at in 265 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: the world of parapsychology. We'll talk about them. One was 266 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: a fellow by the name of Douglas Scott Rogo, who 267 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: was murdered back in nineteen ninety and I think the 268 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 2: case still remains unsolved, is it not. 269 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: No, it was solved about two or three years ago. 270 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 3: I worked with Cold Case in Los Angeles, and I'd 271 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 3: gone through the autopsy report working with colleagues who'd sent 272 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 3: it over to me, and there were some inconsistencies regarding 273 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: that and what reports had actually surfaced. So I requested 274 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 3: some things be retrieved from storage that were found at 275 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 3: the murder scene, and the case got reopened. It was 276 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 3: active again for nine months few years ago, and even 277 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: though we'd advance so much with DNA testing, things were 278 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 3: DNA tested again, but everything related to Scott's blood, and 279 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: so we looked again at fingerprint analysis and that that 280 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 3: ultimately led to discovering who was seemingly responsible, like ninety 281 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 3: nine point nine percent sure it was that person. They 282 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: have since passed away as well, But it is now 283 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 3: firmly case closed. So I can't really go much more 284 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: into it because I'm still going through the files and 285 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 3: I am writing his biography at the moment for d 286 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 3: Scott Rogo, so all of this in some way will 287 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 3: be revealed to actually give some sort of finality to 288 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 3: what happened to Scott, because I know all over the 289 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 3: internet is still saying that his case remains unsolved. But 290 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 3: it was part of cold case that finally we managed 291 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 3: to close down. 292 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: Why can you tell us about the other guy, Alex Tanas. 293 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 3: Well, Alex, Yeah, he's just over my shoulder there. Scott 294 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 3: and Alex are two people people that I've really admired 295 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 3: for a long while. I suppose I discovered Scott first 296 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 3: because of the telephone calls from the dead, and I'd 297 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: done loads of reading around what Scott did because he 298 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: just produced so much over three hundred papers, thirty books, 299 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 3: and then tragically passes away at the age of forty 300 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 3: when he should have been at a Parapsychological Association convention 301 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 3: who wasn't able to make it that year. And Alex 302 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 3: Thomas walked in similar circles to Scott, but they never 303 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 3: really met each other he died. 304 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: He died in nineteen ninety two as well. 305 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, they both passed away in the same year. Lloyd 306 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 3: Auerbach knew them both really well. If any of the 307 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 3: listeners have ever bought Lloyd's books, and I recommend do so, 308 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 3: that they're really good guides for all sorts of things. 309 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: Lloyd's got one called Psychic Dreaming, and if you look 310 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 3: in the front cover, he dedicates that book to both 311 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: d Scott Rogo and Alex Thomas, which is really really nice. 312 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 3: But yeah, Alex was born in ninety twenty six. He'd 313 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 3: suffered with cancer at one point and through one of 314 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 3: his abilities of healing, believed that he'd healed from cancer 315 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 3: because he lived on for a number of years after that, 316 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 3: and then by nineteen eighty nine, I think the cancer 317 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 3: had returned and they had gone through treatment. He was 318 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 3: in remission and then passed away of a heart attack. 319 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 3: But at that point that he'd set up a foundation 320 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 3: to continue his legacy. So there's the Alex Tannas Foundation 321 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: still going to this day and they support research projects, 322 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 3: they go and do events where they advertise the foundation 323 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: and all sorts that they support. Schools, they support the 324 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 3: University of Southern main But Alex professed a number of 325 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 3: really unique abilities. So in one hand, he's an academic, 326 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: he's got five degrees and he's a registered psychologist for 327 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 3: the state of Massachusetts. And on the other side, he's 328 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: claimed that since he was a kid, he could predict 329 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 3: the future and made notes of all these predictions that 330 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 3: hem from someone's going to die tomorrow and has even 331 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 3: told them to their face and the next day they died, 332 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 3: to touching people and healing them of various things, even 333 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 3: broken bones. What else did he claim out of body abilities? 334 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 3: So from a very young age, he was playing on 335 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 3: the stairs, jumping down just a few steps and laughing 336 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 3: and throwing pillows and cushions down, and looked back up 337 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 3: the stairs and saw himself stood at the top of 338 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 3: the stairs. And he said he could see his other 339 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 3: self at the bottom of the stairs through this secondary 340 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 3: version of himself. And he realized when he got into 341 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 3: this state of play, this mindset of being lost in 342 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 3: having fun we call it flow in psychology, and this 343 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 3: state of time passing by when you're having fun, he 344 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 3: could just go out of body at will if he 345 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 3: could get himself into that mindset. So we end up 346 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: being tested for this ability for twenty years at the 347 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 3: Mimonodor's Medical Center and the ASPR in New York City. 348 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 3: He was interested in life after death, so he had 349 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 3: worked in an end of life units to see if 350 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 3: it would teach him more. Because he also professed mediumistic abilities, 351 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 3: and that's where he met doctor Carlos Osis of the ASPR. 352 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 3: They started collaborating on the obe experiences, the outer body experiences, 353 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 3: and haunting investigations, and finally Alex also professed the ability 354 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 3: to project light from his eyes. That one I don't 355 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 3: really hear from any psychics. I've heard of people claiming 356 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 3: they have X ray vision and can still navigate and 357 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 3: see being blindfolded and their eyes bandaged up, but projecting 358 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 3: light from your eyes is very unique. And again he 359 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 3: was tested for that, mainly that my Monitors Medical Center, 360 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 3: with some very unusual kind of initial reports that came 361 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 3: out of that. I find that the weirdest one by far. 362 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at 363 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: one a m Eastern and go to Coast to coastam 364 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: dot com for more