1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning, 2 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: they take their days from great to awesome and any 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: advice they have for the rest of us. So today 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 2: I am delighted to welcome David Burkis to the show. 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: David is the author of several best selling business books, 9 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 2: including Best Team Ever and Friend of a Friend. He 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: speaks on leadership topics to all sorts of audiences. So, David, 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 2: welcome to the show. 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much for having me. 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, excited to have you on. So why don't you 14 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? 15 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean how far back do we want to go? Right? Right? 16 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: Far? Do you want to go? 17 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 3: Right? Yes? So I was born No, just kidding, I 18 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 3: was an organization I'm or organizational scholars by training. I 19 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 3: was a business school professor for about ten years. I've 20 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 3: always been fascinated with teams and human connections and network 21 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: dynamics and that sort of a thing, And around twenty 22 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 3: thirteen twenty fourteen started to write more less for an 23 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 3: academic audience and more for practitioners, and that led to 24 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 3: invitations to speak and to consult and what have you. 25 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 3: And then around COVID. You know, everyone's life got really 26 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 3: really difficult in COVID, but I started to get a 27 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 3: whole lot more. Hey can you do this webinar for 28 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 3: our people? Can you design this whole training? Et cetera, 29 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 3: et cetera. So when university said, hey, we're bringing classes 30 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 3: back in person, I basically said, no, I'm not going 31 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 3: to be there. I'm going to be doing this other stuff. 32 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 3: So I made the leap into doing that full time, 33 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 3: I guess about five years ago. Now, wow, wow, that 34 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 3: seems weird. And it's just absolutely loving it. I mean, 35 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: it's fun to teach the next generation of business folks 36 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: how to create a better working environment, how to have 37 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 3: better teams, but it's a whole lot more fun to 38 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 3: teach the people who can go apply it later that day. Right, 39 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 3: So absolutely loving it. 40 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: I absolutely love the practical ideas one can can do today. 41 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: And a lot of your recent work, as you said, 42 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: has been on teams. 43 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 2: Recent book a best team Ever? I guess what actually 44 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: makes something the best team ever? The high promise. 45 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 3: Yeah right, absolutely, So when you look at the research, 46 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 3: you find that culture plays a much larger role than 47 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 3: you would anticipate. I mean, I don't mean to diminish 48 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 3: things like talent, getting the people with the best knowledge, skills, 49 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: and abilities, et cetera. Talent's great, but we've all probably 50 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: seen that example of putting a talented player on just 51 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 3: a terrible team and watching the team sort of degrade 52 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 3: them down. So if you can get high talented people, great, 53 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 3: but more importantly, work on a culture that helps turn 54 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 3: talent into performance. And in particular in the book, we 55 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: outline kind of three areas where high performing teams shine 56 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 3: in the habits and norms of behavior that they have. Well, 57 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: one is how much common understanding or shared understanding they have. 58 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 3: So I know my role, but I also know enough 59 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 3: about everybody else in the team, not just their technical roles, 60 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 3: but also their personality where we connect and overlap, I 61 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 3: can kind of predict their behavior from it. The second 62 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 3: element is a sense of psychological safety. So I understand 63 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 3: how to help build candor on the team. I understand 64 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: what somebody who's speaking up because they disagree looks like, 65 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 3: and I give them the space to do that. I 66 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,679 Speaker 3: even psychological safety even responds to how we embrace failure, right, 67 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 3: And so you tap into much a bigger growth mindset 68 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: on a team when you can talk about fairs in 69 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 3: a way that doesn't just sort of like punish everybody 70 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 3: and have them diminish it. And then the third element, 71 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 3: the third kind of norm, is that these teams constantly 72 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 3: remind themselves of their purpose, but not purpose as like 73 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 3: why we do what we do. We actually in the 74 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 3: book call it pro social purpose. They're reminded of who 75 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: is served by the work that you're doing, and that 76 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: not only increases motivation, but there's a lot of recent 77 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 3: research that suggests that that increases the amount of team 78 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: work behaviors on a team, right, because when you know 79 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 3: that you're doing this for someone else, you're much more 80 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: likely to put your own ego aside and do what 81 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: the team needs in order to get that person served 82 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 3: to the highest level. And so that's it common understanding 83 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 3: psychological safety and pro social purpose. That's the easy answer 84 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: to what makes for those best teams? 85 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: Ever, Yeah, that sounds great. Here's a sort of practical question. 86 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: How big is the best team? 87 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: Ever? 88 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I know that we don't always get to 89 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: decide this, but is there is there a sweet spot 90 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: where where it's easier to get those three things? 91 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: Then? 92 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: Yeah? 93 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, So generally, I mean, obviously if we're talking about 94 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 3: work teams, if we're talking about a sports team, it's 95 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 3: as big as you know, there are positions right right 96 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 3: Generally in the day to day work like what we do, 97 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 3: large teams do suck. The sweet spot tends to be 98 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: between about six and eight members of the team. After that, 99 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 3: it becomes really hard to keep one conversation in meetings. 100 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 3: It becomes really hard to keep one sense of clarity, 101 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: and you may actually be better off thinking of it 102 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 3: as like, let's break the team. If you've got a 103 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 3: team of fourteen people, it might actually be better to 104 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 3: have two teams of seven. 105 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I know that's going to say. It's sort 106 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: of like a dinner party. 107 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, six to eight is the right number past that 108 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: you've got two conversations going at the table. But you know, 109 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: let's say that somebody has a team that you know, 110 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 2: they're listening to this and they're managing a team and 111 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 2: they would like to make people feel, you know, more cohesive. 112 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 2: Is there something they can to try, you know, today 113 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: or tomorrow to make that happen. 114 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I'll give you the in depth answer 115 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 3: and then maybe I'll give you us a smaller answer. 116 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: My favorite activity to run teams through is this activity 117 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 3: we call the Manual of Me. And it's exactly what 118 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 3: it sounds like, writing the user's manual to what it's 119 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: like to work for you, with you or for you? 120 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 3: You know, what are your strengths and weaknesses? Where are 121 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 3: the opportunities you tend to contribute. I typically when I 122 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 3: work with a team, I come to them with four 123 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 3: questions that have to be answered, and then I let 124 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 3: them ask whatever else they want. But we kind of 125 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 3: start with four fill in the blank questions. I'm at 126 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 3: my best when blank, and I'm at my worst win 127 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 3: blank or one and two, which are strength to weaknesses questions, 128 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 3: but also like context questions. Right, some people are at 129 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 3: their best when they're at their office being social, other 130 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 3: people when they're in like monk mode at home, right, 131 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 3: So we want to know that. And then the third 132 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: and fourth questions are you can count on me too, 133 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 3: meaning historically, this is where I make contributions to the team. 134 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 3: This is where I help most often I'm a whiz 135 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 3: with Excel formulas or something like that. Right, And then 136 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 3: the fourth question is what I need from you is 137 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 3: meaning this is where I've historically needed help. And it's 138 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 3: funny because I give people those questions and the most 139 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 3: common reaction I get is somebody goes, well, I don't 140 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 3: even know the answers of that for myself, Like, great, well, 141 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 3: you've got a week to reflect and kind of figure 142 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 3: it out, and then we come back together and share 143 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 3: out those answers, leave some time for discussion. It's like 144 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 3: what I like in it too, is it's like taking 145 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: the most in depth personality differences test you could take. 146 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 3: Whether you want to call that disc or Myers Briggs 147 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 3: or whatever. You're paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for 148 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 3: a multinational site wide license to administer and doing it 149 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 3: for free. First of all, you could just steal those 150 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 3: questions feel free too, and you get the same level 151 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 3: of conversation about differences and about appreciation for how people 152 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 3: are and how we're going to change the way we 153 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 3: collaborate based on this information. So that's like, my that's 154 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 3: my favorite. You probably can't do that tomorrow. You could 155 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: start tomorrow, but you're gonna have to give them some 156 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: time to it. But you also, if you wanted to, 157 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 3: can sneak those questions into regular meetings. Right, Those are 158 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,239 Speaker 3: like good ice breakers instead of saying what's your favorite movie? 159 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 3: Which is helpful to know, those are real questions around 160 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 3: how you work. So just pick one and ask one 161 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 3: per week, and that's something you could do tomorrow. 162 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, David, what's your fun fact? When somebody asks you 163 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: your fun fact about you? As an icebreaker? 164 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 3: My fun fact, I've actually spent the last nineteen years 165 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: training in this really esoteric martial art called Brazilian jiu jitsu. 166 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 3: That's my fun fact that I go through. 167 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: Fun fact. Yeah, exactly. Well, we may come back to that. 168 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 3: All right, welcome to it a little bit. 169 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: But I'm curious. What do people get wrong about team building? 170 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: I am sure you've seen some atrocious team building over 171 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: the years. 172 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing I tell people is 173 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 3: team building is not an activity. It's a habit. It's 174 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: not a one off thing. The biggest thing people get 175 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 3: wrong it's like, oh, great, we're gonna do this activity. 176 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: We're gonna all rank the items we need in the 177 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 3: metaphorical shipwreck, like you've done that activity, right, or we're 178 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: gonna use these wooden planks to cross the imaginary river 179 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 3: and then magically that's going to turn us into a team. 180 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 3: The research is really clear on this. Then unless you 181 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 3: have that. That's not to say don't do any of 182 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 3: these activities, but unless you have an active and then 183 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: a conversation about how what we learned in that activity 184 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 3: translates into day to day behaviors I can hold people 185 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: accountable to you don't see any lasting change from those 186 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 3: team building activities, So it's much more about the habit. 187 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: And so to me, I don't know. Maybe I'm just 188 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 3: no fun right, Maybe I'm a spoil sport. Maybe, but 189 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: I just find it more useful to jump jump into 190 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: something like the Manual of Me and like, let's just 191 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 3: jump to the conversation about habits and norms instead of 192 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: have to do the activity first. Right, So that's me. 193 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: It turns out that a trust fall does not in 194 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: fact make you trust your team members. 195 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 3: Yeah no, no, not not at all. It felt great 196 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 3: at summer camp when we were all like nine, but now. 197 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, past that, not so much. 198 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: All right, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break, 199 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: and then I'll be back with more from David Burkis. Well, 200 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: I am back talking with David burkis Is, the author 201 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: of several business books, including Best Team Ever. We've been 202 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: talking about some ways to make your team a better team. 203 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: You're also the author of a book called Friend or 204 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: a Friend, which, and I know a lot of people 205 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: are listening to say, like, oh, no, networking not that 206 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 2: so right up there with team building in terms of 207 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: how much we. 208 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 3: Enjot me, I've just go right after all the things 209 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 3: we hate about work, all. 210 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: The fun stuff. 211 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: So what you know, somebody's listening to this and you're 212 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 2: trying to convince them that they're not terrible at networking. 213 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 2: What are some practical things we should be doing to make, 214 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 2: you know, relationship building more fun and yeah authentic? 215 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing I'll say 216 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 3: is that if you if you hate networking, if you 217 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 3: feel sleazy and weird and what have you like, I 218 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 3: totally get it right before. The motivation for writing that 219 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 3: book was that I read a lot of networking books 220 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 3: earlier in my career, and then I attempted to apply 221 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 3: their advice and the thing I ran into was that 222 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 3: like I feel inauthentic. Well, of course I feel inauthentic 223 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 3: because I'm doing so and so's version of networking. I'm 224 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 3: not doing my own right. And so the point of 225 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 3: Friend of a Friend is it's really a book that 226 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 3: is kind of a way to explain here's the science 227 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 3: of how social networks form, how humans actually create interactions 228 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 3: of what have you. And it's called Friend of a 229 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 3: Friend because I think the biggest insight in there is 230 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 3: that you don't actually have to go to any of 231 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 3: those networking events where you serendipitously try and meet strangers 232 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 3: if you don't want to. You don't. You don't have 233 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 3: to make the perfect elevator pitch between the existing network 234 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 3: that you have and the ones that those people could 235 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 3: potentially introduce you to. You have everything you need to 236 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 3: have a robust enough network to achieve your career goals. Right, 237 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 3: I don't even call it friend of the book actually 238 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 3: is like friend of a friend of a friend of 239 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 3: a friend. But that's because we had a great graphic designer. 240 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 3: But I don't even care about like we talk about 241 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 3: six degrees of separation, but you don't need to like 242 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 3: chase down six introductions in order to meet the CEO 243 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 3: of a major tech company or whatever. One or two 244 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 3: is usually enough in terms of practical kind of habits. 245 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 3: What I would say is the single most neglected thing 246 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 3: that people do is they don't spend enough time continuing 247 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 3: to nurture what we would call dormant ties. Right, So 248 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 3: maybe you've heard, if you're listening to this, you've heard 249 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 3: of the famous paper by Mark Ranovt or the Strength 250 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: of Weak Ties. But there's a specific form of a 251 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 3: week tie called a dormant tie. Someone we know, but 252 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 3: because we haven't talked to them in a while, we 253 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 3: we kind of fell out of touch with right and 254 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 3: so as a result, they're often their world doing something. 255 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 3: We're oft in our world doing something. And the truth 256 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 3: is most of our kind of cool, serendipitous. Hey, I'm 257 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 3: looking for a new job, I want to make a 258 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 3: career change. I just need advice on this thing, or 259 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: could somebody please help me get tickets to Taylor Swift 260 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 3: whatever it is. Most of those opportunities come from those 261 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: dormant ties, because they're people that know you enough to 262 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: want to help you, and vice versa, you know them 263 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: enough to want to help them. And they're in a 264 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 3: different world, They're in a different industry or sector or 265 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 3: geographic region, and so they have available to them opportunities 266 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 3: you can't see. So what does this mean, Like, practically, 267 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 3: whatever system works for you to make sure you stay 268 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 3: in touch with them, you know what I do. I 269 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: actually kind of took it to I used to play 270 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: a game I called cell Phone Roulette where I would 271 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 3: basically just scroll to the bottom of my messages once 272 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 3: or twice a week and I would send a message 273 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 3: because you know, it sorts most frequent So at the 274 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 3: very bottom of your messages app is the person you 275 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 3: haven't talked to in the longest, that's that you know 276 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 3: enough to be in your phone, and I would just 277 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 3: send them a Hey, thinking about you today. Now that's 278 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 3: true because I scrolled to the bottom and saw them, 279 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: so now I'm thinking about them and just kind of 280 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 3: a check in that. That worked really really well for 281 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 3: a time. Now I can't exactly scale that. So one 282 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 3: of the things I've started to do in pursued or 283 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 3: pursued persuaded by my friend's v is I send a 284 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 3: regular update. So about once every four to six months, 285 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 3: I just send an update out to all of the 286 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: people that I care enough about to keep informed in 287 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 3: my life and want to hear from, and it says, hey, 288 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 3: here's what I've been up to. Personally, here's what we did. 289 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 3: We took a family trip to Hawaii. Professionally, here's what 290 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 3: I've been doing, doing a lot of work on LinkedIn 291 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 3: learning courses or what have you. Here's what I've been reading, 292 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 3: here's what I've been wondering about, et cetera. And at 293 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 3: the very end of just say hey, what's going on 294 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: in your life? And the coolest part about it isn't 295 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 3: writing it. It actually feels really weird to write it because 296 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: it feels like I'm writing a Christmas letter, but like 297 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 3: multiple times a year, right, exactly exactly. The coolest thing 298 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 3: is when people write back and they say, this is 299 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 3: what I'm up doing this, so I haven't heard of you, 300 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 3: and it's just the flood of conversations that happens. Is 301 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 3: that little check in point. Now I'm doing that before 302 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 3: I need it, right, there may be a time by 303 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 3: the end of the year where I'm like, hey, I 304 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 3: really need somebody who has a connection to this. But 305 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 3: it's really awkward to do that unless you're constantly kind 306 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 3: of staying in touch with those dormant TIPE people. So 307 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 3: that's what I should do. Whether you want to play 308 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 3: the text message roulette or you want to do the 309 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 3: quarterly update, either one which everyone feels more authentic to you, 310 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 3: is probably going to work really, really well to keep 311 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 3: those dormanties activated. 312 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: Well I'm curious about that because people want to know, like, 313 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: what's the reason I'm reaching out to those people? And 314 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: I mean, yes, you scrolled through your phone and saw 315 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: their number and said thinking of you because you thought 316 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: of them when you saw their number. But I wonder 317 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 2: if you know, I think I think a lot of 318 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: people struggle with that, like comes up with the authentic 319 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: reason to do it? 320 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, well I get it, I get it, I do. 321 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 3: And I think part of the reason for that is 322 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 3: that so many times when we're on the receiving end 323 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 3: of one of those messages, it's because somebody wants something 324 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 3: from us and we're just sort of waiting for that 325 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 3: to drop. And so the idea behind doing this on 326 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: a regular basis is that I'm training lots of people 327 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: that I actually legitimately care about them and don't want 328 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 3: something from them, which is true and I think it's 329 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: true for all of us. Right. Yeah, So if you're 330 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 3: doing it on a regular basis, if you're sending that 331 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 3: update quarterly or every six months or so whatever, you're 332 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 3: training people that, like I just want to stay in 333 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 3: touch with you. There might be a need you have 334 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 3: for me later. I might need you later, but that's 335 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 3: not what this one is about. And so it makes 336 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: it easier when you actually do have one of those 337 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: conversations where you need a favor or something like that, 338 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: because they're trained to not expect that shoe to drop. 339 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: I totally get why it's awkward, and doing it the 340 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 3: first time, by the way, always super awkward. But here's 341 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 3: what I would tell you. Let's roll reverse. Right. If 342 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 3: you're listening to this, you're like, I could never do it. 343 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: Imagine someone you hadn't talked to that you worked at 344 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: IT in the last company or whatever, texted you out 345 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 3: of the blue and was like, Hey, I was thinking 346 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 3: about you today. I haven't talked to you in a 347 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: long time. I hope you're well, I hope everything's going 348 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 3: on with you. Wouldn't you kind of like to receive 349 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 3: a message like that, I mean, you're I get that 350 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 3: some of us are kind of inherently skeptical that, like, 351 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 3: what do you want from me? But as soon as 352 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 3: you figured out that they didn't actually want anything from you, Like, 353 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: I can't think of a person, a former colleague or 354 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: an old friend from college that I wouldn't love to 355 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 3: be on the receiving end of that message from Yeah. 356 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely. 357 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 2: So you've just shared a couple of things that you 358 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: do to make yourself more productive on the networking front 359 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: to hear, whether it's cell phone roulette or sending a 360 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: regular update on your life. I'm curious if you have 361 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: any other routines, like in your daily life that you 362 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: use to make yourself more productive. 363 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, okay, So I kind of have three average days, 364 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 3: right if you think about it. So, now that I'm 365 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 3: not teaching full time, I have home days, I have 366 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 3: on the road days where I'm speaking or working with 367 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 3: a client, and then I have kind of summer schedule, right, 368 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: which is what we're in the midst of is we're 369 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 3: recording this right. Home days. I've become a huge fan 370 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 3: of kind of time blocking. So the average day for 371 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 3: me during the school year, I have kids that are 372 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 3: in middle school, in elementary school the average day from 373 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 3: during a school year, get up, help them, get ready, 374 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 3: get them off to the school bus, and then I've 375 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 3: got about ninety minutes or so of kind of the quiet, 376 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 3: focused time I deliberately try and do like if I'm 377 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 3: writing a book or working on a piece or something 378 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 3: like that, I try and do it in that time. 379 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: I find I can get about one ninety minute block 380 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: before I get hungry again and also want to beat 381 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 3: everybody else to the noontime gym rush. So then I'm 382 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 3: going into like a snack and exercise, whether that's going 383 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 3: to the gym, ju ju jitsu, whether that's my wife, 384 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 3: and I become a huge pickupball fans. It's been terrible 385 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 3: for my knees, but a ton of fun, right, some 386 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 3: kind of some way to sweat, right, And then we're 387 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 3: back at about twelve thirty one o'clock, and that's when 388 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: I try and schedule almost all of my what I 389 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: would say reactive work. If you want, if a client 390 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 3: wants a phone call with me, if I made an 391 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: exception for you because you know we're old school friends. 392 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: But if you want to do a podcast interview something 393 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 3: like that, anything that doesn't require deep thought just requires 394 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 3: conversation that's in that afternoon bit until around when they 395 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 3: come from school, and then I'm right back into like 396 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 3: parent mode and we've got soccer practices and tube lessons 397 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 3: and all that sort of stuff. So that's like home schedule, 398 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: speaking schedule. I'll be honest with you, it's a free 399 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 3: for all. It's entirely determined on what the client needs 400 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 3: and what has But one of the things I've been 401 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 3: learning is i've been getting older, is like a lot 402 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 3: of us will fly in the night before an event. 403 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 3: We'll speak in the morning, and then we'll rush to 404 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 3: the airport home. And I'm trying to do that less 405 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 3: because I've realized how much stress it adds into my 406 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 3: life to be like gotta get home, got to go. 407 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 3: I try and just add an extra day because then 408 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 3: you can linger at the event, you can hang out 409 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 3: with people, they tell you how great you were, and 410 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 3: that's great for the ego, right, and you just don't 411 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 3: necessarily feel that stress. So I'm trying. I'm not succeeding yet, 412 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 3: but I'm trying to kind of take back my calendar 413 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 3: to add more of that kind of downtime. And then 414 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 3: summer schedule is like total free for all. Right, everyone's 415 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: around all everybody's around. I mean literally, we had to 416 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 3: sleepover last night. So I have three kids in the 417 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 3: house as we're recording this, and you just have to 418 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 3: react to everything. And here's the thing that used to 419 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 3: annoy the heck out of me. And then I got 420 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 3: to the place where a good friend of mine, Jim Shields, 421 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 3: hit me with this a couple of years ago, and 422 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 3: he said, look, you only get eighteen summers with your kids, 423 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 3: then whether you get any more is determined by how 424 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 3: well you did in those eighteen summers. And so I've 425 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 3: kind of just sort of embraced that, right and just 426 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 3: tried to say, like, it's a it's a total mess 427 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 3: for two months out of the year, but we're just 428 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 3: gonna love the mess and do the best as we can. 429 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, all right, We're gonna take one more quick ad 430 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 2: break and then I'll be back with more from David Burkis. 431 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: So I'm talking with David Burkis. We've been talking some 432 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: of his routines. Now, are you do you have any 433 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: sort of morning routine other than getting the kids out 434 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: the door or is that that just. 435 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 3: Not I don't Yeah, I don't have to the younger 436 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 3: one school bus picks him up at six fifty in 437 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 3: the morning. I'll be honest with you, I do not. 438 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 3: I do not have time for. 439 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: A morning There's no morning routine before that. 440 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I would say my morning routine happens 441 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 3: after they leave, right, And it's much more about what 442 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: do I do to kind of transition into that work mode. 443 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 3: We structured all life such that there's a I have 444 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 3: to go downstairs from our main living area into the 445 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 3: basement where my office is, so that kind of feels 446 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 3: like a commute. I usually now candidly, I'm usually looking 447 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 3: at my phone while I'm like getting them breakfast, having 448 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 3: breakfast myself. And I found, even though people say like, oh, 449 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 3: don't do that, do all of your do of your amazing, 450 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 3: you know, big work before you ever look, I find 451 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 3: it actually helps me to clear all of that out 452 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 3: and kind of have an idea of what I need 453 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 3: to respond to for the day before I then go 454 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 3: into that deep work. I just have to tell myself 455 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 3: none of these are fires. I don't have to put 456 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 3: them out right away, right, So that's kind of it. 457 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 3: We do have a pretty strict sort of nighttime routine, 458 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 3: right in terms of like when we are as a family, 459 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 3: when we are like okay, computers off, TV off, et cetera, 460 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 3: we're in bed, we're powering down where I do kind 461 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 3: of have that in order to sleep a bit better. 462 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 3: So we do have routines, they just don't usually happen 463 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 3: in the morning. I know that seemed weird on it 464 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 3: before breakfast. 465 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: Well I don't either, because I have to also get 466 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 2: people out the door. I mean, I love writing about 467 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: people's morning routines, but when you have multiple school age children, 468 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 2: often they. 469 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 3: Are the morning route. 470 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 471 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 3: There's a there's a productivity YouTuber I love named Ali 472 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 3: Abdall and he just had a son, and I put 473 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 3: it when he owt or just had a child. And 474 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 3: when you put it on Twitter, I announced like, congratulations, 475 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 3: your content has just gotten so much more relevant for me. 476 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: Now, yes, exactly, Well, there is something to be saying. 477 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 2: People are giving productivity advice and maybe have never even 478 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: been responsible for like a puppy before. Exactly exactly, wonder 479 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 2: you wonder. But we have a wide variety of people 480 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: listening to this, so we we enjoy all that. But 481 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: I'm curious, when are you in bed to be up. 482 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: For the morning. 483 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 3: Let out, let's out of ten pm, ten pm. Yeah, 484 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 3: we we figured this out. Okay, So all right, this 485 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 3: is probably too much information that I'm going to regret 486 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 3: sharing on a podcast. But we were one of those 487 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 3: weird American families that actually co slept until our kids 488 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 3: were like ten and eight. Yah, right, so we lived. 489 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 3: We got this weird because my wife is at your 490 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 3: resident and now you our physician. I left the universe 491 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 3: like everything. We kind of we kind of went from 492 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 3: a nice, you know, class family to being blessed with 493 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 3: with what we do now all at the same time. 494 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 3: And when I started doing the numbers, I was like 495 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 3: we were living in a little tiny starter house that 496 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 3: was supposed to just be for like us in one kid, 497 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: but we stayed in there longer and moved to like 498 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 3: the dream house, the one we picture the kids being 499 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 3: like teenagers in. But that house is too big for 500 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 3: eight or a six year old and an eight year 501 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 3: old and what have you. And so they didn't want 502 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: to be in their rooms, right, they were used to 503 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 3: being much closer to us, So we just rigged up 504 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: a mattress like on the floor near us, and we 505 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 3: slept in the same room. You know, even though we 506 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 3: had this house that we now they don't. We had 507 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 3: this house that we're like, you're going to be teenagers in, 508 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 3: you're going to think of as your home home. It 509 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: was way too big for us. So we all just 510 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 3: slept in the same room and had to go to 511 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 3: bed at like nine thirty ten because that's when they 512 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: had to go to bed. And then I realized, like, 513 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: that's sleeping. Actually sleeping for eight hours a night is 514 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 3: like the ultimate life hack, right, Like there's before you 515 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 3: try anything else, try that one, right and see how 516 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: that one works for you. And so now we still 517 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 3: adhere to it. I mean literally, we put them to 518 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 3: bed nine thirty on a school night, ten o'clock on 519 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 3: a not school night, and we are we are lights 520 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 3: out within five to ten minutes after that. 521 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: I am a fan. Although I can't sleep in the 522 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: same room as my kids because they wake me up. 523 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 3: Oh I don't think I could do it now. I don't. 524 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 3: They're way bigger now and I could like hear them breathe. 525 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 3: But absolutely, when they were younger, it was great. 526 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, well here's a question for you, because going back, 527 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: I always big on life logistics, and your wife is 528 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: a physician and er. 529 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 2: I'm sure is like random hours. I mean maybe she 530 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 2: picks up certain shifts on a regular basis. But you 531 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 2: were talking about how you try to stay at a 532 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: event for an extra day. Yeah, so how does that 533 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 2: work out with the family scheduling? 534 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 3: Yeah? Not well as of late. 535 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: All right, Well that's good to know. 536 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 3: I mean it used it used to work out great 537 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 3: because generally we would know, like a client would reach 538 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 3: out and say, can you we're doing this meeting, can 539 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 3: you be a part of it three to four months 540 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: ahead of time, sometimes even six months ahead of time, 541 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 3: and that's before you put in for your schedule with 542 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 3: the hospital. So it would just work like, Hey, I 543 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 3: have a thing on this day and this day, so 544 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 3: put in to not work on that day. And we 545 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 3: still try and do that as much as we can. 546 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 3: But I'm sure you've run into this too in your career, 547 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 3: Like some clients reach out like four weeks ahead of time, 548 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 3: and that's a little more difficult because the shifts are 549 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 3: already set right er hospitals, a lot of the shift 550 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 3: work of a physician is actually really easy in perfect 551 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 3: conditions to balance with what we do because the schedule 552 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 3: set ahead of time, there's no on call, there's no 553 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 3: charting you have to do afterwards or any of that 554 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 3: sort of stuff. It's way easier than being like a 555 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 3: general practitioner or somebody who have to be on call. 556 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 3: But when those short term clients things come in, it 557 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 3: gets a little more difficult. Now I think where we are, 558 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 3: that's starting to get longer. But that was just sort 559 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 3: of like a post COVID reaction. I'm sure you saw 560 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 3: the same thing of like clients were suddenly like, we 561 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 3: don't even know if we're going to have an event, 562 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 3: so we're not even going to reach out to somebody 563 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 3: to be a part of it until we know for 564 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 3: sure we're going to do it. And that was a 565 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 3: short timeline, so it didn't work out all of that 566 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 3: well for a while. But it's starting to get to 567 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 3: get better and better, which is why I'm starting to 568 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 3: kind of push for that a bit more. 569 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've noticed that too. 570 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 2: I mean it was in the past it would be like, 571 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 2: you know, if you wanted a keynote speech in October, 572 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: you were definitely reaching out in the spring, yeah to 573 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: book that, And now I feel like I definitely will 574 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: get people being like, yeah, we want something in yeah, 575 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks, Like did you not plan this 576 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: event before then? Like or maybe I'm your second choice. 577 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 3: I don't know. 578 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: That could be too but it's you. 579 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 3: Know, you're not too far off. My theory is like, 580 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 3: especially for an internal event, like we are kind of 581 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 3: a commodity, don't ever. I mean, if you're listening to this, no, 582 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: Laura and I are the absolute most in demand, best 583 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 3: people in this field. But the truth is, like everybody 584 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 3: has to go to that internal company meeting anyway. It's 585 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: not like associations and ticketed events and things like that 586 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 3: are back to a normal planning schedule because people want 587 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 3: to know who the speakers are before they buy a 588 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 3: ticket to it. But like an internal event where it's 589 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 3: like the company on hands meeting, Like we're like the 590 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 3: cherry on the cake. People are coming for the cake anyway. 591 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, they have to be there. 592 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 2: So if if it works out to have an external speaker, 593 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 2: that's awesome, and if it doesn't, then they force their 594 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 2: VP of sales to give. 595 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 3: The talk exactly exactly. 596 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: Also it's happening regardless exactly. 597 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 3: Also, Cherry on the Sunday I don't know why you 598 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 3: would put cherry would be terrible. I wouldn't. I would 599 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 3: not enjoy that cake. 600 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 2: So, David, I always ask people a question of what 601 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 2: is something you've done recently to take a day from 602 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 2: great to awesome? 603 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 3: Yeah? You know, okay, I think most days are great. 604 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 3: And this isn't just because I'm like super but like 605 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 3: you're still alive therefore a day is great. So the 606 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 3: thing that I have been doing for like twenty years 607 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 3: now is trying to remember that. And I don't have 608 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 3: a sophisticated like gratitude practice. I don't bullet journal or 609 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 3: anything like that. Here's where I learned this. Twenty years ago. 610 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 3: I got married, and when you're engaged, you get all 611 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 3: sorts of marriage advice from people who probably shouldn't give 612 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 3: you marriage advice, Like I wish I would have written 613 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 3: it all down and then had a column for be 614 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,479 Speaker 3: like did you get divorced later? Like you know, who 615 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: should I actually be listening to? But the one piece 616 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 3: of good advice I really really got was actually not 617 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 3: marital advice. It was wedding advice, and it was Hey, 618 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 3: that whole day is going to be a blur. So 619 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 3: as many times as you can throughout the day, stop 620 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 3: and remind yourself, this is my wedding, right, like and 621 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 3: literally the only memory I have. I have lots of 622 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 3: memories of looking at photos and video and what have you, 623 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 3: But the only memory I have of like that actual 624 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 3: day is standing there at the altar, looking at her 625 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,239 Speaker 3: and saying to myself, this is it. This is our 626 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 3: actual wedding. Like that's my one internalized memory, because there's 627 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 3: something about taking a second and like absorbing the moment. 628 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 3: Just stop and let's do it right. And so I 629 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 3: try and do that a lot. Right On a normal day, 630 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 3: it might just look like walking outside and sitting on 631 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 3: the deck for a few minutes and be like this, 632 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 3: this has been a really great day. On a travel day, 633 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 3: it might be like reflecting on how cool it was 634 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 3: that we sort of did something. One of the things 635 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 3: I like about again that trying to stretch out and 636 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 3: be less stressed traveling to and from work travel is 637 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 3: it gives you more opportunities to have that moment I'm 638 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 3: sitting at the like I pack a swimsuit now, And 639 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 3: part of my thing is like I might swim at 640 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 3: the pool or sit in the hot time and think like, oh, 641 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 3: that was a really cool opportunity, and I just all 642 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 3: I need is like a moment five minutes of not 643 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 3: having to think about anything other than the fact that 644 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 3: this day happened, and because it happened, it was already great. 645 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. One of my favorite speaking events. 646 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 2: I was at a resort and I brought my swimsuit 647 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 2: and I went on the Lazy River by myself. 648 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: Like I've been on so many lazier rivers with small people. 649 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: I'm like hurting along too, So I was like, I'm 650 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 2: just sitting on this tube, follow myself. 651 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, same to you. I bet In fact, I 652 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 3: bet you I know what hotel was if it was 653 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 3: in Orlando. It's the marriout that has the amazing Lazy 654 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 3: River and the slides. I did the same thing, except 655 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 3: it was the water slide, and because it was ten 656 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 3: thirty in the morning, I was the only person and 657 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 3: it was awesome. 658 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: Who's that dude with no kids with them? Right? Right? 659 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly. 660 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: So David, what are you looking forward to right now? 661 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean this, We're recording this in July, which 662 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 3: is kind of like halftime, right, it's the slow down, 663 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 3: reflect and then plan. So I'm actually really looking forward 664 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 3: to the to the next year. We've got from a 665 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 3: family perspective, We've got some really cool things happening. I 666 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 3: have one kid who's like, has been aspiring to be 667 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 3: in marching band since he was picked up for the 668 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 3: school band. Got another that plays soccer and it's kind 669 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 3: of moving into another competitive level. Got some cool I'm 670 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 3: just looking forward to again. Every day is great, So 671 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 3: I'm just kind of looking forward to the second e 672 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 3: of the year. I don't have any big plans. I'm 673 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 3: not in the midst of writing another book or anything 674 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 3: like that. I'm just trying to make every day great. 675 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, where can people find you? 676 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 3: Oh? I'm so I've been really blessed mine. Look can 677 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 3: you you? Probably the same way. My name is really rare. 678 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 3: There aren't a lot of David bergers is out there. 679 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 3: There is a twenty four year old Hungarian filmmaker and 680 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 3: that's the only one I've met. So if you just 681 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 3: type it into Google, you will find me. You'll find 682 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 3: the platform you want to connect with me on. If 683 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 3: that's too difficult for you and you're listening to this 684 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 3: in a podcast app like, just swipe up or swipe 685 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 3: to the side. It's in the show notes. Anyway, while 686 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 3: you're there, maybe even leave a review, let Laura know 687 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 3: how great this podcast is, and then then you'll find. 688 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: Me absolutely all right, Well, David, thanks so much for 689 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 2: joining us, and thank you also to everyone for listening. 690 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 2: If you have feedback on this or any other episode, 691 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: you can always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam 692 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: dot com. 693 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: In the meantime, this is Laura, Thanks for listening, and 694 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for 695 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, 696 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 697 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts 698 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 699 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.