1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff, a production from I heart radio. 2 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tech stuff. I'm your host, 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I heart radio, 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: and how the Tech Are you? Recently I was invited 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: to speak on the radio about the fair phone four, 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: which is the latest smartphone from fair phone, and in 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: the process I realized that this company and this line 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: of products really opens up the opportunity to talk about 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: a lot of serious issues in tech, issues that the 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: fair phone looks to try and avoid and to bring 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: attention to. So these are issues like the ethical sourcing 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: of materials and labor, sustainability and e waste and also 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: repair ability. So I figured today we're gonna talk about 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: the fair phone four only a little bit, and how 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: it opens the door to talk about these issues in 16 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: tech and why they're important and why they're really complicated. 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: And I could have started, you know, anywhere, but I 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: decided to tackle those in order that I mentioned them. 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: So I'M gonna start off with ethical sourcing. It is 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: very easy for us to be reductive in our thinking 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: when we look at any particular electronic device. Consider your 22 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: typical smartphone. In fact, let's be specific. Let's say that 23 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about an iphone. Now I'm going to add 24 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: that apple has, on and off, done some serious work 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: to try and make ethical choices when it comes to 26 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: the manufacturing of its devices, particularly in the wake of 27 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: scrutiny that was directed toward apple because there were some 28 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: very high profile tragedies, like worker depths in China related 29 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: to apple production. Um, the company has not maintained a 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: stellar record like I'll talk about a bit more later, 31 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: but anyway, apple at least has been in the public 32 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: eye for this issue and when you look at an Iphone, 33 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: you might think, oh well, this just this came from apple, 34 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: but of course the truth of the matter is that 35 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: it gets far more complex than that. I think there's 36 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: a great way to kind of illustrate this. There's a 37 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: song that's called the guns song and it comes from 38 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: Stephen Sondheim's musical assassins. The musical is about the various 39 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: people who assassinated or attempted to assassinate a U S 40 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: president over the course of the history of the United States. Now, 41 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: the character singing this part of the guns song in 42 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: question is Leon Frank Chol Gas, who assassinated President Mckinley 43 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: on September six, N one and Chol Gas sings. Quote. 44 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: It takes a lot of men to make a gun. 45 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: Hundreds many men to make a gun. Men in the 46 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: minds to dig the iron, men in the mills to 47 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: forge the steel, minute machines to turn the barrel, mold 48 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: the trigger, shape the wheel. It takes a lot of 49 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: men to make a gun. One Gun. End. Quote, and 50 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 1: Hill Gods is right. He's pointing out that this one 51 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: thing that someone can hold and they can own and 52 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: they can use is actually the product of work from 53 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: hundreds of people. Also, at the end of the song 54 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: he makes it a point to say that this production, 55 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: this manufacturing process, can cost many lives before the gun 56 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: is ever fired. In other words, this gun effectively killed 57 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: people even though it hadn't even been fully built yet, 58 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: because people had died in the making of it. Well, 59 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: the same thing, tragically, is true with our electronics. Our 60 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: devices don't magically come out of a big building that 61 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: has computer factory or smartphone manufacturing facility on the side. 62 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: Our electronics are the product of many, many steps in 63 00:03:53,520 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: a complicated and interconnected supply chain. We saw how dangerous 64 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: the supply chain can be when it was disrupted and 65 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: continues to be disrupted in the wake of the pandemic, 66 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: and it brought a lot more attention to it, but 67 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: it's attention more to how it inconveniences us or how 68 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: it affects businesses less so about the conditions going on 69 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: at various points of the supply chain. And there are 70 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: many points in that chain where there are big, troubling problems. 71 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: Let's start with raw materials. So our devices rely on 72 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: some materials that we think of as being pretty scarce. 73 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: We call them rare earth elements. Sometimes you will hear 74 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: rare earth minerals or rare earth metals. We frequently will 75 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: say rare earth elements just to kind of lump them 76 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: all into one category. Now, that's a bit of a misnomer. Actually, 77 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: they're not that rare. It's just it's very hard to 78 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: find a lot of those material eels in a single place. Uh, 79 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: it's that you know, you you don't find veins of 80 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: ore of these rare earth elements. You can't just dig 81 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: and say, Oh, I found a vein of whatever. So 82 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: instead what you have to do is gather up huge 83 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: clumps of earth and stone, minerals, and you have to 84 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,239 Speaker 1: treat it so that you can separate the rare earth 85 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: elements from that Earth. So you've got to displace a ton, 86 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: literally literally tons, of earth and then treat it in 87 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: order to get at the stuff that we need in 88 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: order to have them incorporated into our electronics and make 89 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: them work. Now, if we were lied on places in 90 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: the world that maintained strict controls when it comes to 91 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: how you can treat workers and how you protect the 92 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: environment in the process of your operations, that amount of 93 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: effort and attention would end up translating into higher costs 94 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: and manufacturing. So, for example, we might identify a region 95 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: in the United States that could be ideal for mining 96 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: certain rare earth elements that we would use for electronics. 97 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: But if we did that, any operation would have to 98 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: follow these strict rules, because that's the law in the 99 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: United States, and those rules would cover stuff like the 100 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: environmental impact of the operations. A lot of mining operations 101 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: use explosives to blast out deep pits and they also 102 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: tend to rely on enormous pools filled with toxic chemicals, 103 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: and those chemicals leach out the stuff you want from 104 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: everything else and then you dump everything else into a 105 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: waste pit, or sometimes you might just have the toxic 106 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: pool become the waste pit over time. So you essentially 107 00:06:54,960 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: create enormous amounts of soil and rocks that you dump 108 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: into these toxic pools. You let the chemicals do their 109 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: work and extract the stuff that's in these teeny tiny 110 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: concentrations within this massive earth and then you generate an 111 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: enormous amount of spoil and this is the product of 112 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: your mining. Now that toxic pool is obviously hazardous for 113 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: the environment. We're talking about chemicals that can cause direct 114 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: harm if you're exposed to them, or long term harm 115 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: if it gets into things like the water supply. It's 116 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: also obviously hazardous for the people who are working at 117 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: these operations. Now a lot of this particular kind of 118 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: work happens in China, which has a terrible human rights record. 119 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: There is a mine in the Mongolia region of China 120 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: where more than of all the rare earth elements mind 121 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: in the country comes from. So out of all of China, 122 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: one mind accounts for more than of all rare earth 123 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: elements taken out of that country. It's called the by 124 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: an oboe mine. It represents more than the total known 125 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: earth rare earth elements in the world and almost half 126 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: of all the rare earth elements that we need come 127 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: from this one mine. It's been an operation as a 128 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: rare earth elements mine since nine before that it was 129 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: an iron mine. Anyway, this extraction process leaves behind lots 130 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: of waste. There's toxic wastewater which is filled with stuff 131 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: like heavy metals and radioactive materials and other dangerous stuff. 132 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: If that water does get into the water supply, then 133 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: you're looking at a really hazardous situation for all the 134 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: people within that region who access that water table. It's 135 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: not unusual in areas around these kinds of operations to 136 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: see an increase in cancer rates for the populations in 137 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: that region. Uh, it is possible to mine rare earth 138 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: elements more responsibly, but that takes more time, takes more effort. 139 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: Thus it's more expensive, and so you have to first 140 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: work in a place that takes these things seriously. China 141 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: is not one of those places and a place that 142 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: doesn't treat workers as expendable. And for the record, there 143 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: are rare earth element reserves in other parts of the world, 144 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: like the United States, really does have some rare earth 145 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: element deposits, but because of those strict rules about limiting 146 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: environmental damage and mitigating the risk to human populations, including 147 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: the workforce, you don't see them. Those operations happen because 148 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: it would be way more expensive. That would either cut 149 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: into the profits of the electronics companies or, more likely, 150 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: result in an increase price to the consumer, or maybe 151 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: both of those things. Anyway, that's just one part of 152 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: the supply chain, the mining process that has a dark side. 153 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: And there are other mining operations that also have a 154 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: truly disturbing dark side. One of those happens in Africa, 155 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: specifically in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, or the 156 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: D R C, and Y'all, I'm gonna warn you this 157 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 1: gets grim now. The first thing you have to understand 158 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: is that the D R C has had an incredibly 159 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: violent and chaotic past due to things like colonialism, civil war, 160 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: war in nearby nations, rampant government corruption and even more 161 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: rampant exploitation of the natives of the region, and I 162 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: do think it's important to understand at least a very 163 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: quick history of the D R C to get a 164 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: context for, as you know, as far as how the 165 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: rest of the world helps perpetuate an ongoing crisis within 166 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: this country. So let's get a quick rundown of its history, 167 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: and I stress this is the barest bones. I am 168 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: not doing any justice to the Democratic Republic of the 169 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: Congo with this quick history, but I to kind of 170 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: paint a picture of the plight of the people in 171 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: this in this country. So much has happened there, but 172 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: generally speaking, the native peoples of the Democratic Republic of 173 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: the Congo have been the subject of abuse and exploitation 174 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: for about a hundred fifty years. At first it was 175 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: King Leopold of Belgium. He claimed the entire region as 176 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: his own personal property and he sent agents there to 177 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: oversee operations that forced locals to work in the rubber 178 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: trade or they risked losing life and limb. Literally, there 179 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: was a practice for a while where if someone was 180 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: resisting the authority of the king, that person might get 181 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: their arm lopped off, absolutely brutal. Then in the early 182 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: twentieth century, under intense international pressure, King Leopold would hand 183 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: over the control of the region to the Belgian parliament. 184 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: This is where the region became known as the Belgian Congo, 185 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: and at that point very large companies mostly Belgian companies 186 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: replaced Leopold's agents, but the people of the region were 187 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: still oppressed and exploited. It's just now they were exploited 188 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: by these companies as opposed to the king's representatives. Over time, 189 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: folks discovered there were other valuable resources besides rubber in 190 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: the region that would eventually become the D R c. 191 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: There was copper, for example. Later on they discovered uranium there. 192 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: So as the atomic age advanced, countries like the then 193 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: Soviet Union and the United States became very interested in 194 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: the region, and both the USSR and the USA, as 195 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: well as several other first world nations, would start to 196 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: interfere in the region. Some sides would shore up rebel 197 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: forces UH and some sides would shore up dictators. The 198 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: United States supported dictators because the so union was funding 199 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: rebel forces, and it was all in an effort to 200 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: secure access to those resources. You don't kid yourself in 201 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: thinking that either the USSR or the United States were 202 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: really concerned for the people in the region. They were 203 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: concerned for those resources and they would take whatever means 204 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: necessary in order to make sure the other side couldn't 205 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: get it. Meanwhile, the people of the nation continued to 206 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: Labor under inhumane conditions. Now the region gained independence in 207 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty because Belgium realized that it was not going 208 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: to be able to keep a lid on things much longer. 209 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: There was a growing sense of independence in the country. 210 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: Belgium did not have the resources to be able to 211 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: suppress that, so there was a move to become a democratic, 212 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: independent nation in nineteen sixty. But this opened up opportunities 213 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: for other countries to try and install leaders within the 214 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: Congo that would be more in client to trade with 215 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: one side versus the other, uh and ultimately it gave 216 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: a man named Mobutu the chance to declare himself president 217 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: of the country in nineteen sixty five. Mobutu was incredibly corrupt. 218 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: You could say he was using a lot of the 219 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: same tactics as King Leopold and those large companies from 220 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: decades earlier, and he was embezzling tons of money in 221 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: order to fund his own private wealth. Things would get 222 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: even more complicated over the following decades. By the nineteen nineties, 223 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: there was a civil war in neighboring Rwanda and a 224 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,479 Speaker 1: genocide in Rwanda, and that ended up leading to conflict 225 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: in what would be the D R C at this 226 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: point in history. It was not the DRC yet. They 227 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,479 Speaker 1: had gone from the Belgian Congo to becoming the Republic 228 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: of Zaire under Mobutu. And you know, Mo Bout was 229 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: essentially a dictator who was calling himself a president, someone 230 00:14:55,240 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: who was running unopposed an election after election, and the 231 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: incredible pressure from the civil war forced him to flee 232 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: the nation. But things did not necessarily get better from there. 233 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: I'll talk about it more when we come back after 234 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: this quick break. We're back, all right. We left off 235 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: with Mobutu fleeing what was then called the Republic of Zaire, 236 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: and the new leaders of the Congo renamed it the 237 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of the Congo. So that's where we get 238 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: its current name. This is a nation that has gone 239 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: under many names over its history, but the corruption within 240 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: the region at all levels of government and business, ran 241 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: super deep. It's not like everything magically got better once 242 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: Mobu too was deposed, essentially. And there were pockets in 243 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: the DRC where military rebels were relying on forced labor 244 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: are including child labor, to mine for materials like copper 245 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: and then later cobalt. Cobalt is incredibly useful in electronics. 246 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: That's where we're really going to focus for the rest 247 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: of this conversation. So the armed rebels would sell these 248 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: raw materials to buyers, essentially manufacturing companies, and then they 249 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: would use the money they made from selling the raw 250 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: materials to buy weapons and to try and gain more 251 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: control over their various territories. All right, it gets worse. 252 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: The fact that the D R C sits on top 253 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: of deposits of valuable resources means that there's an ongoing 254 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: pressure from the rest of the world to get access 255 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: to those raw materials way of the list. On of 256 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: those nations is China. In fact, there are a handful 257 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: of Chinese mining companies that have exclusive rights to specific 258 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: areas within the DRC to mine for cobalt in particular. So, 259 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: like I said, cobalts used in a lot of stuff, 260 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: including many types of lithium batteries, and our electronics rely 261 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: on batteries. We know that there's an increased dependence upon batteries. 262 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: In fact, if we want to have a future where 263 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,719 Speaker 1: electric vehicles replace internal combustion engine vehicles, we're gonna need 264 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: a lot more batteries. So you've got these areas within 265 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: the D R C where Chinese companies are overseeing dangerous 266 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: mining operations and effectively are in control of those regions 267 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: within the D R C. Like you have Chinese companies 268 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: that are essentially ruling parts of the Democratic Republic of 269 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: the Congo. So you've also got these impoverished communities within 270 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: the D R C that are attempting to get at 271 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: least a little autonomy to be able to profit from 272 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: their own resources. People who live on land and that 273 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: they discover that they have cobalt on their land, they 274 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: often find themselves forced off and incapable of profiting off 275 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: their own property. This can actually escalate in to brutal 276 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: confrontations with armed police and military. There's a twenty one 277 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: piece in the New Yorker that's titled the Dark Side 278 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: of Congo's cobalt rush and I urge you to read it. Uh, 279 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: the piece goes into a lot more detail on the 280 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: stuff I'm talking about, but essentially, the people of the 281 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: D R C have had very little agency for multiple generations. 282 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 1: There are entire towns that have been uprooted and forced 283 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: to move, with people scattering all over the place as 284 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: a Chinese mining operation has swooped in to demolish houses 285 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: and turn what was once a town into just a 286 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: bunch of minds. And there's a lack of safety precautions 287 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: in these mining operations, which means the actual people doing 288 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: the mining, many of them children, face life threatening situations regularly, 289 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: and the presence of armed police and military, who are 290 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: essentially paid off by the Chinese to keep things in line, 291 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: will often mean that you run the risk of being 292 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: beaten for any kind of resistance to the normal process 293 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: of operations. And, like I said, there's this ongoing issue 294 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: of child labor in the region. It's something that has 295 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: gained global attention and occasionally you see companies do something 296 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: about it, like Apple. Apple has now and again attempted 297 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: to address this problem, though the article in The New 298 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: Yorker specifically alleges that apple pretty much abandoned any attempts 299 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: to be serious about that once the heat was off 300 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: the company. So you know, they made an effort for 301 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: a while and then, when people stop paying attention, they 302 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: just went back to the old old way. So the 303 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: human cost is very high. And keep in mind so 304 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: far we're only talking about raw materials. Let's also talk 305 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 1: about the manufacturing process. See, when we move up the 306 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: supply chain, then we have to talk about taking raw 307 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: materials and turning them into components that will later get 308 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: assembled into finished products. Now, some of these steps happen 309 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: in places where things aren't too rough, but ultimately it 310 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: all goes back to places like China. While your major 311 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: tech companies aren't reliant upon mainland China for microprocessors, because 312 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: that honor tends to go to Taiwan. Taiwan is off 313 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: the coast of China and it is independent of the mainland, 314 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,239 Speaker 1: though mainland China disputes that point. But you know, if 315 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: you're talking about assembly and packaging, then that's all out 316 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: of China. In fact, these processes usually take place in 317 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: different facilities hundreds or thousands of miles apart. So you're 318 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: shipping stuff all over Asia just for it to become 319 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: a finished product. You know, it kind of gets back 320 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: to that song from assassins it takes a lot of 321 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: men to make a gun. In this case, your iphone 322 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: has traveled the world in some ways before it ever 323 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: got to you. Anyway, according to researchers like Henry Young 324 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: of the National University of Singapore, more than half of 325 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: the world's electronics are at some point going through a 326 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: process of manufacturing within China, and the country has a 327 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: reputation for very harsh working conditions, which includes unreasonable punishments 328 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: for even minor offenses. And it was so bad that 329 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: the economic rights institute looked into more than a hundred 330 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: fifty cases between ten and which workers at these kinds 331 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: of facilities committed or attempted to commit suicide. The researchers 332 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: found that low wages, anxiety over job security, a massive 333 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: turnover problem and harsh punishments, as well as a feeling 334 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: that no one in the managerial capacity ever even gave 335 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: a crap about them, all contributed to folks having such 336 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: despondents that they considered suicide. Now this became global news 337 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: when there were actually a string of suicides, more than 338 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: a dozen of them, and a manufacturing company called Fox 339 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: con in and sadly, the reason the world really took 340 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: notice is because Fox con is one of Apple's big suppliers. 341 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: It's part of Apple's supply chain. If it hadn't been 342 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: for that connection to apple, I would wager that those 343 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: depths would not have received much coverage outside of China. 344 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: Probably not that much inside of China, and that is 345 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: absolutely unthinkable to me, but it's the it's the truth. Now, 346 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: over the last decade, wages for workers in these facilities 347 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: has slowly improved. The low wages have gotten better over 348 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: the last several years, which has raised the cost of 349 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: doing business in China. So it's a little more expensive 350 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: to have your manufacturing processes operate in China because they're 351 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: paying people more, but because China has such a well 352 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: developed manufacturing infrastructure means it's still the main choice over 353 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: alternatives like Vietnam and India, where you know the Labor 354 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: could be a lot cheaper. Again, you get into real 355 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: problems with all this. But the reason why companies aren't 356 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: necessarily flocking to Vietnam and India for all of their manufacturing. 357 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: Some of them are dipping their toe in that, but 358 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: the reason they're not rushing to it is that these 359 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: these countries have a lack of infrastructure when you compare 360 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: it to China. So there's this kind of balancing act 361 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: that companies are doing, saying well, well, well, we'll continue 362 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: to operate in China while we start to see manufacturing 363 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: infrastructure built out in other nations where we might be 364 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: able to exploit cheaper labor so that our our costs 365 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: come down. But yeah, that's the main reason that the 366 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: world turned to China in the first place. It's because 367 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: the labor costs were so low that it kept the 368 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: overall cost of manufacturing down, and thus it could mean that, 369 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, the consumer sees less expensive electronics. You know, 370 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: they might still be pricey, but they're not as expensive 371 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: as they would be if, you know, we were being 372 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: better stewards of the environment and treating people as human beings. So, yeah, 373 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: it comes at the cost of a lot of lives 374 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: along the way. Financially it might cost less, but the 375 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: social cost is and the environmental cost is very high. 376 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: All right, that's enough. I know that I get on 377 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: a soapbox and it sounds like I'm preaching. We're gonna 378 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: switch our thoughts over to sustainability and recycling. Still gonna 379 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: be a little preachy. Apologized for that. It's just the 380 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: way it works. So, as we've already covered, getting the 381 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: raw materials for our electronics includes a lot of practices 382 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: that are harmful not just to humans but also the environment. 383 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: And meanwhile the Electronics Industry is built upon a practice 384 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: of consume and replace. By that I mean we in 385 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: the developed world our condition to replace our stuff on 386 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: a regular basis. Um computers are they tend to last 387 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: five to eight years if you've taken good care of them. 388 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: That's assuming you don't need to upgrade to a more 389 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: recent system. You know, frequently, like if you're a pro 390 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: Gamer or something, you might be upgrading your system until 391 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: the motherboard can't support anymore and then you swap it 392 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: all out, and so you might be changing your rig 393 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: fairly regularly. People like me, where I'm using a work 394 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: computer to do some pretty light work, I can get 395 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: away with using the same machine for several years in 396 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: a row. But then with smartphones there's this push to 397 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: upgrade every two years or less. You know, we get 398 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: new models with new features every single year and they're 399 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: marketed to us as being a big improvement over the 400 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: stuff that came out the year before. The old contract 401 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: systems that were with carriers here in the United States 402 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: meant that you used to have the chance to renew 403 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: your agreement, your agreement with whatever carrier you use, every 404 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: two years and you would get a phone for a 405 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: highly subsidized price. So the actual cost of the phone 406 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: could be lower, even free, depending upon the plan. That's 407 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: not as common these days. We don't see those subsidized 408 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: phones as frequently in the United States as we used to, 409 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: but it got people into the habit of thinking every 410 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: two years or so that they needed a new phone. 411 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: Some people it's even more frequently. They they want to 412 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: get the newest model as soon as it comes out. 413 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: But then what happens to all the old phones and computers? 414 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: Like we've created this culture where we have manufactured the 415 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: desire for new products. Well, the old products have to 416 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: go somewhere. Right. Where do we put them? You know, 417 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: you shouldn't just throw them away, although a lot of 418 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: people do. Uh. For one thing, you might have some 419 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: important information stored on there somewhere and you really need 420 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: to make sure you've gone through and thoroughly, uh, formatted 421 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: and deleted all that stuff so that someone doesn't come 422 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: into possession of one of your old pieces of equipment 423 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: and get access to information they should not be able 424 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: to access. But for another thing, if the electronics still works, 425 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: like if you have a smartphone you want to upgrade 426 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: but your old smartphone still works. Well, you could donate 427 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: your old smartphone to an organization that can make sure 428 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 1: that someone who otherwise would not have that kind of 429 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: a device can get it. If it's a device that 430 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: doesn't work, it still contains valuable and, in some cases, 431 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: toxic materials in it, and you know you don't want 432 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: the toxic stuff to go into a landfill where it 433 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: might leach out and contaminate the environment. That's obviously something 434 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 1: that no one wants to have happened. And you don't 435 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: want to waste the valuable stuff that's in your electronics either. 436 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 1: Right like there's stuff in there that could be used again, 437 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: even if the device itself is shot. There are components, there's, 438 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, copper, there's even gold. There are other things 439 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: that are dangerous stuff too, like mercury and lead. So 440 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: you don't go cracking into your old electronics hoping that 441 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna be panning for gold in them, but it 442 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: would be a great idea to risk cycle the electronics 443 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: in those cases in order to reclaim those valuable materials 444 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: and use them again instead of them just going into 445 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: a landfill. Now I will caution you, because the recycling 446 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: process is also a complicated one. We've talked about it 447 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: on this show before. There are some electronics recycling companies 448 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: that just gather up enormous amounts of electronics. They pack 449 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: cargo containers full of them, they ship them overseas, often 450 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: to places like China, and the recycling operations, the reclamation operations, 451 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: are actually very similar to how rare earth element minds 452 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: end up separating the materials from Earth in the first place. 453 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: They often rely on caustic, toxic chemicals to leach that 454 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: stuff out of the electronics and thus be able to 455 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: reclaim it, and those operations can put workers at risk. 456 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: There are entire towns in China that became dangerous to 457 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: live in due to the chemicals that were being used 458 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: to pull valuable stuff out of old electronics. So even 459 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: when you're trying to do the responsible thing with your 460 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: old devices and recycle them, you can inadvertently participate in 461 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: a system that exploits people and causes harm. There are 462 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: ethical electronics recycling programs out there, but it takes some 463 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: legwork to find them. Once you do, those old electronics 464 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: can be processed and materials can be reclaimed to be 465 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: used in future products. That's what the Fair Phone Company 466 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: strives to do. So rather than source materials that come 467 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: from places like the D R C, where it's far 468 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: more likely that they came out of an operation that 469 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: has a terrible disregard for the safety of its workforce. 470 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: The stuff is coming from old electronics that no longer 471 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: have a use. They're relying heavily on recycled materials in 472 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: order to get access to those, those raw components. Now, 473 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: reducing our reliance on new material boost sustainability and that's 474 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: a huge benefit in the long run, at least on 475 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: the environmental side. On the humanitarian side, things get awfully complicated, 476 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: because what do you do about taking jobs away, like 477 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: if you if you remove the demand for cobalt within 478 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: the D R C and these Chinese companies all pull 479 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: up stakes, what takes its place? Because you you have 480 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: a region that has been unstable for generations, largely due 481 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: to interference from other countries, and the answer to that 482 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: is complicated and and I'm not sure anyone really has 483 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: the right one. Like I don't know if there is 484 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: a right answer. There are probably answers that have different 485 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: degrees of wrongness to them. Okay, we're gonna take another 486 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: quick break. When we come back we're going to talk 487 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: about the third of those big topics that fair phone 488 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: opens up, and that's repair ability. Now, anyone out there 489 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: who has had an issue with their electronics, if especially 490 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: if it's something like a smartphone, less so with computers, 491 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: because computers, if you know what you're doing, you can 492 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: frequently swap something out if something goes bad, like if 493 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: your motherboard goes bad. It might be hard for you 494 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: to to, you know, figure out that that's the problem, 495 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: but you can change out a motherboard, assuming you get 496 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,239 Speaker 1: one that's compatible, that fits in your case and all 497 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Same thing for a CPU or 498 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: a GPU or Ram, like all the different components. It's 499 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: fairly straightforward to swap them out and replace them. In 500 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: your standard desktop computer. Laptops are a different story. Those 501 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: get closer into the problems that I'm going to talk about. 502 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: When it comes to smartphones, it's very rare to come 503 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: across a smartphone where it's easy, or even potentially possible 504 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: for you to do a repair job yourself. That's because 505 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: smartphone companies take great efforts to one cram all the 506 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: components into as slim a form factor as possible, because 507 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: that scene as being a value to the industry. Like 508 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: you want to have a sleek, sexy, thin smartphone, so 509 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: that ends up causing part of the issue. You might 510 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: have to use glue, for example, to glue components into 511 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: place so that it can fit into this very small 512 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: form factor. Well, that makes it very difficult to access 513 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: and replace or repair that particular piece if it's been 514 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: glued to something else. Same thing with the actual case. Like, 515 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but my phone I wouldn't 516 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: be able to open it up to even access the internals. 517 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: In the first place. It's essentially sealed shut. You might 518 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: have to use something like a heat gun to weaken 519 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: the glue that's holding the case together, but then you 520 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: have to be super careful because if you you know, 521 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: if you overheat your smartphone, you might fry the various 522 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: components inside of it. You might need special pride bars 523 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: in order to be able to open it up. And 524 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: then once you get in and you look at the components, 525 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: some of them might be fastened to the the circuit 526 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: board or to the case itself using proprietary connectors, proprietary screws, 527 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: which means you need a special tool to be able 528 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: to unscrew them. Apple does this all the time, so 529 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: it makes things much more difficult to do repairs on 530 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: it's why? One of the reasons why is that companies 531 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: like apple really like to have a closed ecosystem. So 532 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: your device stops working, maybe you just end up buying 533 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: a new device. That would be great for Apple. They 534 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: would love that. But, failing that, maybe you have to 535 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: take that device into an apple store where someone, an 536 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: actual apple employee, will take the device off your hands 537 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: and the repairs will be done by licensed apple agents 538 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: who are doing all the work because they actually have 539 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,399 Speaker 1: the tools to access all these different parts and they 540 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 1: have the individual parts as well, which, you know, most 541 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: companies don't sell those. Most companies don't sell you a 542 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: replacement for the various pieces that are inside the smartphone. 543 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 1: So it makes it very hard to repair these things. 544 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: Fair phone goes a different way. Fair phone takes a 545 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: more modular approach and it uses standard screws and it 546 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 1: doesn't glue stuff close. So you can open your fair 547 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: phone phone, you can remove the battery and swap it 548 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: out for a new one. Let's say that your battery 549 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: life has started to suffer, that the battery is starting 550 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: to to no longer hold as much of a charge 551 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: you can actually with a fair phone. Change the battery out, 552 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: put a new battery in Um and attach it screwed 553 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: back into place, and then you're good to go. And 554 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: maybe you send the old battery off to be recycled 555 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: so that way it can continue this process Um. In fact, 556 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: the fair phone, a couple of the fair phones, are 557 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: the first smartphone devices to receive a ten from I 558 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: fix it, which is a website that judges the repair 559 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: ability of various uh electronic devices, and the easier it 560 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: is to repair, the higher the score. Fair phone is 561 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: the only smartphone out there that's got a ten, and 562 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: that really shows you the approach of the company is 563 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: made saying we want to make sure that our device 564 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: will last you a long time, that if there is 565 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: a problem, you can solve it. Check out the beat 566 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 1: while the DJ revolves it, you just use the regular 567 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: tools to access it and swap it out. You can 568 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: actually buy the replacement components, you know. It's not like 569 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: it's hidden somewhere where. You know they have complete control 570 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,800 Speaker 1: over supply chain that they don't allow anyone else to access. 571 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: So it really does change the game, and higherly as 572 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: far as reparability. This really falls in line with the 573 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: philosophy of the right to repair movement, and so it 574 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 1: is fundamentally different from the way most companies do their business, 575 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: where it's it's not as easy, it's not as convenient 576 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: and it takes away a revenue stream to allow people 577 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: to make repairs to their own stuff. Now there is 578 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: a massive trade off for all of these things that 579 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: fair phone does. You know the fact that fair phone 580 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: tries very hard to make sure that it is not 581 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: engaged in operations that contribute to human suffering, that it's 582 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: not working with companies that are exploiting workers by paying 583 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: them criminally low wages and making them work ridiculously long hours, 584 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: that it is a reparable device, that it's not something 585 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: that's going to put increased strain on the environment because 586 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: it's using more and more recycled materials. Two build these devices? 587 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: That trade off? Well, they're two. One is that it's 588 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: not nearly as advanced as your flagship smartphones on the market. 589 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: Right if you take the fair phone, for the most 590 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: recent one, and if you were to compare it to 591 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: an iphone fourteen, the most recent iphone, the iphone Fourteen's 592 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,240 Speaker 1: specs blow the fair phone four out of the water. 593 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: There's no questions, not even close. Now, granted, the fair 594 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 1: phone four is cast is. It would cost around six 595 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,439 Speaker 1: D seventy bucks us if they sold them in the US, 596 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: which they don't. But if we converted euro to two dollars, 597 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: would be around six D seventy bucks, whereas an IPHONE, 598 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: if you're getting a pro model, could be around a 599 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: thousand thousand two hundred bucks, somewhere around there, depending on 600 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: which model you're getting. So yes, less expensive than an IPHONE, 601 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: but also far less powerful. If you actually compare the 602 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: fair phone four against other smartphones that have a comparable 603 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: set of capabilities, then the other phones cost, you know, 604 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: half as much, or us like you might find a 605 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: phone that costs a hundred, fifty or two hundred dollars 606 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: that has the equivalent specs of the fair phone four, 607 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: which costs six. That really shows you that if you 608 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: want to go about things in an ethically responsible manner, 609 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 1: there is a massive cost to that. It does cost 610 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: a lot more money. It also really pulls back the 611 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: curtain on how much money, quote unquote, you're saving by 612 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: depending upon these systems that bring along with it these 613 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,919 Speaker 1: awful conditions for the people who are are in these operations. 614 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: So you start asking yourself questions. Is it more valuable 615 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: to you to be able to say the devices I use, 616 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to use them for as long as I 617 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: possibly can and I want to make sure that they 618 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: are ethically sourced and I don't mind paying more for them? 619 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: Not everyone has that capability to I mean, I fully 620 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 1: understand like there are a lot of consumers out there 621 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: where paying more for the stuff they need is just 622 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: not an option, particularly as we are on the brink 623 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: of whatever economic calamity we're in right now, whether it's 624 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,720 Speaker 1: a recession or not. It's tough. Is a tough ask 625 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: to go to someone and say hey, that device you 626 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 1: want and or need is dependent upon unethical practices, so 627 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 1: you need to pay more money for this thing that 628 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 1: does less so that you're not contributing to human misery, 629 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: and the other person says, I can't afford to do that. 630 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's a tough argument to to go against. Right. 631 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 1: So there are no easy solutions here, but being aware 632 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: of the problem, I think, is absolutely important, like having 633 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: that that knowledge of how this system works and what 634 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: it is dependent upon is an important component because it 635 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: might make you pause when you are about to purchase 636 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: your next electronic gadget, to ask questions about this and 637 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: to potentially hold companies accountable and to demand changes for 638 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: people who aren't in a position to be able to 639 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: argue for themselves. And I think ultimately that's the right 640 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 1: thing to do. But it is, you know, a long game. 641 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: It's very hard and it will come with the cost 642 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: of things being more expensive over time. So it's not 643 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: something that I think would ever happen immediately. I'll be 644 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: amazed if it happens at all. But but I feel 645 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: like it's something that we need to talk about to 646 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: be able to at least acknowledge what's going on. To 647 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: turn a blind eye to it and to pretend like 648 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: these things aren't happening, I think is a massive injustice 649 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: and I think we have to reckon with it. And 650 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: I realized that the reason why a lot of this 651 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: stuff never really makes the news that frequently is that 652 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 1: it's happening in places that are so far away from us, 653 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: especially I'm talking about here in the United States in particular. 654 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 1: It's so far away from where we are that it's 655 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: easy for us to just not think about it and 656 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: not pay attention, because that might as well be a 657 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,879 Speaker 1: different world to a lot of us, and so it's 658 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: so far away and the people are people we don't 659 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: know and we have no connection to that it's easier 660 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: for us to kind of shrug and set it aside 661 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 1: and then go after the next shiny thing. But yeah, 662 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: I love the fair phone for mission because, or the 663 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,720 Speaker 1: fair phone mission, I should say, just the whole company's 664 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: mission because, like I said, it really does try to 665 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: address some massive issues in the technology space, the hardware space, 666 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: and I think that's commendable. Whether the device is one 667 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: worth getting or not, I can't say they don't sell 668 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: them in the US. I have never held one in 669 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: my hand, but I think the mission is one that 670 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: I really believe in and I would like to see 671 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: that kind of extend over time and an effort be 672 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: made to create a more humane and environmentally conscious approach 673 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 1: toward producing our electronics, even if that means they're going 674 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: to cost a bit more. All right, I know I 675 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: rambled a lot and I went off on these things 676 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,359 Speaker 1: and maybe you have a fundamentally different point of view 677 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: about this. Now. Maybe there are economic factors that you 678 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: would argue for that. Again, it's hard to argue against them. If, 679 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: if you argue this literally is the only way it 680 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: can work, because if it went any other way, the 681 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: companies would go to a business, then we're in another 682 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: we're in another crisis. It's just a different kind of one. 683 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: But that's my own point of view. If you have 684 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: things that you would like me to talk about in 685 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: future episodes of tech stuff, whether it's a specific technology, 686 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: trend in tech, a personality and technology, anything like that, 687 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 1: let me know. One Way to do that is to 688 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 1: download the I heart radio APP, which is free to 689 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: download and use, and you can navigate over to tech 690 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 1: stuff just, you know, put text stuff in the little 691 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: search field. It'll pop up you. Once you're over on 692 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: tech stuff, you'll see that there's a little microphone icon. 693 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 1: If you click on that, you can leave a voice 694 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: message up to thirty seconds in length. Let me know 695 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: what you would like me to talk about, or you 696 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: can always leave me a message on twitter. The handle 697 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,439 Speaker 1: for the show is tech stuff, hs W and I'll 698 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: talk to you again really soon. Text stuff is an 699 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,280 Speaker 1: I heart radio production. For more podcasts from my heart radio, 700 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,800 Speaker 1: visit the I heart radio, APP apple podcasts or wherever 701 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.