Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
Speaker 1: the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile
Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on
Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Jim Bouchard, an outdoor writer
Speaker 2: and Northern Michigan deer hunter, to discuss rut hunting and
Speaker 2: gun season tactics for low deer density areas. Really all right,
Speaker 2: welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to
Speaker 2: you by First Light and their Camera for Conservation initiative
Speaker 2: and their brand new line of whitetail gear this year.
Speaker 2: You can find it all over at first Light dot com.
Speaker 2: In today's episode is just what you need to hear
Speaker 2: if you are hunting right now as this pot cast drops.
Speaker 2: This one's coming out on November fourteenth, twenty twenty four,
Speaker 2: and that means we are right smack dab in the
Speaker 2: middle of the rut and for many hunters across the country,
Speaker 2: just about to kick off gun seasons when things do change.
Speaker 2: So to help with that, to help with those challenges
Speaker 2: on the way with the things that you might have
Speaker 2: going on right now. I've brought on a guest who
Speaker 2: is brand new to this show, but with a lot
Speaker 2: of value to add. His name is Jim Bouchard. He's
Speaker 2: a Northern Michigan deer hunter who has been getting it
Speaker 2: done consistently, year after year after year in a really
Speaker 2: tough place to do that. And I know that because
Speaker 2: I grew up hunting in northern Michigan with very limited success,
Speaker 2: and Jim somehow is doing it in similar country with
Speaker 2: very impressive results, killing mature bucks in places where there
Speaker 2: just aren't a lot of those kinds of deer. And
Speaker 2: so I've been watching Jim from afar trying to figure
Speaker 2: out how he does it, what's the secret to his success,
Speaker 2: and how can you kill deer like that in places
Speaker 2: where you know the cards are stacked against you. Low
Speaker 2: deer densities, big timber, lots of cover, lots of hunters,
Speaker 2: hard to understand terrain. Whether you hunt in the big
Speaker 2: woods of Kentucky or southern Ohio or or up north
Speaker 2: in Minnesota or Wisconsin or Pennsylvania, you know there is
Speaker 2: a lot of the nation that has this set of
Speaker 2: circumstances and Jim's tactics are proven to work in those scenarios,
Speaker 2: so I wanted to get his perspective and to be
Speaker 2: able to help all of you out there who don't
Speaker 2: get to have the luxury of hunting thousands of deer
Speaker 2: across the perfectly manicured farm fields of Illinois or Iowa
Speaker 2: or Kansas and the Gray Plains. Whatever it is. That
Speaker 2: is what today's podcast is all about and the unique
Speaker 2: challenges that come by way of gun season. Because Jim
Speaker 2: has been able to enjoy success even after our November
Speaker 2: fifteenth opening day of gun season here in Michigan. So
Speaker 2: Jim not only is a successful hunter, He's also successfully
Speaker 2: been able to share these stories in Peterson's Bow Hunting
Speaker 2: Magazine and Bowhunter Magazine and does a great job communicating
Speaker 2: as well. So that is I'd say a double whammy
Speaker 2: for why Jim's gonna be a great guest here, good hunter,
Speaker 2: good communicator, and relevant information for you here today in
Speaker 2: mid November. So I think we should not beat around
Speaker 2: the bush here, we should get right into the show.
Speaker 2: I will remind you that if you enjoy our rut
Speaker 2: hunting tunes, Big White Tails and the Most Wonderful Time
Speaker 2: to kill deer. They will be at the end of
Speaker 2: the episode. So some of you may not like it,
Speaker 2: but I can tell you that my six year old
Speaker 2: son absolutely loves these songs and I have to go
Speaker 2: find them in our episodes of the podcast whenever he
Speaker 2: wants to listen. So if you have a child who
Speaker 2: really enjoys these jingles, or if you are a child
Speaker 2: at heart the guy I am, and want to enjoy
Speaker 2: those songs. There at the end, they're still here. We
Speaker 2: are still celebrating the rut because this is the most
Speaker 2: wonderful time to kill deer, and damn it, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: enjoy it, have a good time with it, and I
Speaker 2: hope you will too. So without any further ado, let's
Speaker 2: get to my chat with Jim.
Speaker 3: Who's sharp.
Speaker 2: All right here with me on the line for another
Speaker 2: episode of the Wired Hunt podcast is Jim Buchhard. Welcome
Speaker 2: to the show, Jim, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2: Like I was just saying a second ago before we
Speaker 2: started recording this podcast, is incredibly self serving today. I'm
Speaker 2: a very selfish person. I am here for my own
Speaker 2: personal gains today because I am a aspiring Northern Michigan
Speaker 2: deer hunter. I grew up hunting in Northern Michigan, but
Speaker 2: we didn't do too terribly well up there. And now
Speaker 2: I've been watching you from afar for years, every year
Speaker 2: killing big old bucks in Northern Michigan, and I keep
Speaker 2: scratching my head and wondering how does he do it?
Speaker 2: So today today we're getting the answers. Jim, Okay, I'm
Speaker 2: hoping you can live up to that.
Speaker 3: I hope I can do my best to help you out.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you can. And I'm actually I'm actually leaving
Speaker 2: for our Northern Michigan deer camp tomorrow night, so this
Speaker 2: is very good timing. I'm actually heading up there to
Speaker 2: help my dad with a short rut hunt, hoping that
Speaker 2: he can can fill an archery tag up there before
Speaker 2: our big gun season camp. So so yeah, we're gonna
Speaker 2: try to turn these ideas around real quick and put
Speaker 2: them into action. Well that said, what I think I'm
Speaker 2: curious to set, or what I want to do, is
Speaker 2: set the stage, Like I understand the situation you're hunting in.
Speaker 2: I've grown up hunting similar stuff, but I imagine there's
Speaker 2: a lot of people that can't and haven't done that before.
Speaker 2: So could you first kind of describe for me what
Speaker 2: the areas are that you hunt, Like, what what those
Speaker 2: areas are, Like, what what's the habitat composition? Like, what's
Speaker 2: what are the challenges to hunting in these kinds of places?
Speaker 2: Because because what impresses me about what you do is
Speaker 2: the situations you're finding success in. This isn't like you're
Speaker 2: killing deer in Iowa on manicured farm ground like my
Speaker 2: buddy Dan Johnson. You're doing it in a different kind
Speaker 2: of different kind of place. So can you paint that
Speaker 2: scene for us?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so in this area, it's yeah, you have the
Speaker 3: egg of Michigan, but there's a ton of big woods
Speaker 3: and you know, when it comes to hunting up here,
Speaker 3: the expectations of the size of things. Man, you're a
Speaker 3: Michigan guy. Earlierarly on, if it was three inches you
Speaker 3: were pulling the trigger, which you know, a lifespan. It
Speaker 3: just they're so short. So when it comes to expectations,
Speaker 3: you know, that's the one thing I like about you
Speaker 3: and toning your conversations. You know, it's uh, it's hunting deer.
Speaker 3: So giant deer around here. I mean I was just
Speaker 3: talking with somebody the other day. The biggest deer I
Speaker 3: have ever held. It wasn't mine was And I've been
Speaker 3: hunting my entire life with the extremely serious hunting fan family.
Speaker 3: Is like one hundred and forty two inches, you.
Speaker 2: Know, the giants.
Speaker 3: That a giant though, that's the biggest I've ever held.
Speaker 3: So and that you know, you go southern Michigan, there's
Speaker 3: gonna be a lot of one forty shot this year
Speaker 3: and larger, you know. So in this little pocket of
Speaker 3: the TB area that it's been labeled for a long
Speaker 3: long time, is there are a lot of hunters, But
Speaker 3: as far as like even looking at watching television and
Speaker 3: thinking about one six, it's just not going to happen.
Speaker 3: You know, I'd love to make it happen, but I
Speaker 3: really try, but that's just an unrealistic expectation around here.
Speaker 2: So so up there, do you guys have a lot
Speaker 2: of the like Detroit hunting traffic that's coming up to
Speaker 2: hunt your neck of the woods. Is that where a
Speaker 2: lot of that pressure is come gun season and whatnot?
Speaker 2: Or is it mostly locals? Ye?
Speaker 3: Like in the in the area where I live, there's
Speaker 3: a lot of people that do come up from downstate
Speaker 3: to this location and you guess that the trunk slammers, right.
Speaker 3: I mean when you're driving in Michigan, it'so migratory state
Speaker 3: every Friday Sunday. And the thing about me living up
Speaker 3: here is I'm always doing the opposite. You know, if
Speaker 3: I'm going downstate every but it's coming north and vice versa.
Speaker 3: So in my particular area is a lot of people
Speaker 3: that do come from downstate, but in general, it's just
Speaker 3: like it's the hunting lifestyle. So there's just a lot
Speaker 3: of people that hunt. So even one of my favorite
Speaker 3: farms that I hunt, everywhere you look there's a tower blind.
Speaker 3: You know, every food plot in the area that I
Speaker 3: have has a tent right on it has a ladder
Speaker 3: stand on it. So it's just what we do around here.
Speaker 3: It was a lot more migratory back in the day,
Speaker 3: you know, as Michigan's turned. It used to be the
Speaker 3: up was the jam, That's where you saw the big
Speaker 3: buck night, That's where they came from. And now it's
Speaker 3: like totally flip flop to the opposite side of the state,
Speaker 3: which is pretty amazing. But yeah, it's just what we do.
Speaker 3: We hunt here, and there's a lot of hunt every
Speaker 3: single field that has a box on it.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so you've got this part of Michigan, northern
Speaker 2: Michigan where you have a mix of some egg and
Speaker 2: some timber and probably some swampy stuff too, is that right?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, okay, so not too different.
Speaker 3: That's I mean a lot of cedar and uh, lots
Speaker 3: of a lot of thick stuff. Yeah, a lot of.
Speaker 2: Water, right, water and thick marshy cedery, swampy, lots of timber. Big.
Speaker 2: It's big, big country, right.
Speaker 3: Big country. Yeah, you can you know, some of the
Speaker 3: chunks of state land up here, enormous in federal land
Speaker 3: and really unique in the fact that you have federal
Speaker 3: land right on Lake Huron, which is like awesome up here.
Speaker 3: And now the new craze of a lot of public
Speaker 3: land stuff, there's more pressure than there used to be
Speaker 3: on those locations, but it's pretty amazing they have that
Speaker 3: much shoreline that's at your disposal, you know, on that
Speaker 3: state land.
Speaker 2: So here's here's where I have spent a lot of
Speaker 2: days scratching my head when you're looking at especially like
Speaker 2: big tracks, like you're talking about big state land, big
Speaker 2: federal land, which there's a lot of that in northern Michigan,
Speaker 2: northern Wisconsin, northern Minnesota, Vermont, Maine, Pennsylvania, southern Ohio. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of parts of the country that have this
Speaker 2: big timber or big swamp, lots of woods, vast areas.
Speaker 2: It's overwhelming in many cases, and because there's not as
Speaker 2: much diversity, or at least obvious diversity like you might
Speaker 2: have in a southern Michigan, where there's like field here,
Speaker 2: a little bit of woods here, it's kind of daunting
Speaker 2: to try to break it down and figure out where
Speaker 2: the heck are these deer because on top of that,
Speaker 2: at least in most of the places I've hunted like this,
Speaker 2: you've got the big woods or big whatever, but then
Speaker 2: relatively smaller, relatively lower deer density. So it's you've got
Speaker 2: a couple of needles in a really big haystack that
Speaker 2: all kind of looks the same. So I gotta believe
Speaker 2: one of the secrets to your success is just breaking
Speaker 2: that stuff down and finding what to focus on within
Speaker 2: these vast countries or the big swamps. So there's big
Speaker 2: pieces of timber that are next to your spots or
Speaker 2: that are your spots, Can you kind of walk me
Speaker 2: through that to start is like, how do you go
Speaker 2: about breaking down this kind of habitat that's not as
Speaker 2: obvious as the standard Midwest southern Michigan, Ohio, whatever kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. How do you find deer on these big
Speaker 2: swaths of sometimes big contiguous timber.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean when I have gone into like the Midwest,
Speaker 3: it's amazing, Like how easy it is to you can
Speaker 3: narrow down your scouting. There's a spot across the road
Speaker 3: here where it can be maddening. You can walk an
Speaker 3: entire day and go. I don't know where I would
Speaker 3: ever sit here. It's not a concentration. So when it
Speaker 3: comes to me breaking it down, I mean even when
Speaker 3: it comes to any scouting stuff, it's about just boots,
Speaker 3: it really is. I mean you can look at you
Speaker 3: can look at on X and it's just a bunch
Speaker 3: of green. You know, yeah there's something, it's just a
Speaker 3: bunch of green, and then yeah there's top of lines.
Speaker 3: But it's really you have to go see it. You
Speaker 3: have to go see it, and in some cases you
Speaker 3: have to go experience it because I know there's historical
Speaker 3: places where my families have hunted in this federal land,
Speaker 3: where I have gone there and go, I would never
Speaker 3: sit here in a million years, Like yeah, so and
Speaker 3: so they shut a buck here and they shot a
Speaker 3: buck here, and like why there's something about that little
Speaker 3: ridge and something about that crik down there that makes
Speaker 3: it good. And the only reason they knew is they
Speaker 3: put their butt there and it worked one time, you know,
Speaker 3: and then they started to go back. And when it
Speaker 3: comes to me, I just like when it comes to scouting,
Speaker 3: I put a turmendous mount of time. It's all postseason
Speaker 3: stuff when I can see and I can just put
Speaker 3: miles in and then I have to get the secondary
Speaker 3: information of the sign that camp that happened in the rut.
Speaker 3: And me, when it comes to wherever I'm gonna look,
Speaker 3: no matter where it is, I go to the vic stuff.
Speaker 3: It's just I just go thick. And when I see
Speaker 3: like television, I see some like some people hunting in
Speaker 3: parky stuff, it just makes me nervous, like I just
Speaker 3: like I feel like I'd be wasting my time. When
Speaker 3: I see parky stuff, I just rule it out of
Speaker 3: my brain because I don't ever really look for it
Speaker 3: here at all. I just go like, where is it
Speaker 3: really really thick? And that's where I'm going to start.
Speaker 2: How would you define really thick, like in your neck
Speaker 2: of the woods. What does really thick equal? Because I
Speaker 2: think everyone's got a different definition based on where they're at,
Speaker 2: you bat.
Speaker 3: So, most of my hunting companions make fun of me
Speaker 3: when I send them pictures from my tree stand of
Speaker 3: how thick it is. I just had the longest shot
Speaker 3: of my entire life on a white tail in northern Michigan,
Speaker 3: and I luck you got an arrow in it. It was
Speaker 3: thirty four yards. That's the longest of my life, most
Speaker 3: of my I mean, I have a single pin roller.
Speaker 3: It's always at twenty five. I don't even have to
Speaker 3: think about it. I am tight and I have a
Speaker 3: couple of shots. So for the most part, I always think,
Speaker 3: but like in your situation with the cameraman, it'd be
Speaker 3: the worst, it'd be the most boring. You wouldn't even
Speaker 3: have any good b roll. It's just you are so claustrophobic.
Speaker 3: It's not really that enjoyable. I can tell you that.
Speaker 3: But it's like it's effective for me, and it's just
Speaker 3: basically what I stick to. I mean, so we're talking
Speaker 3: extremely thick. I got a couple of shots I'm not
Speaker 3: seeing I'm not calling deering from a long range. I'm
Speaker 3: seeing twenty five yards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so so so thick that you can see
Speaker 2: twenty thirty yards max. Something like that. And so cedars, right,
Speaker 2: tall grass, cedars and tall grass.
Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker 2: So when you're out there scouting, you're putting all these
Speaker 2: boots on, all these miles on the boots, you're looking
Speaker 2: for thick stuff patches like what you just described. What
Speaker 2: are the other features or sign that you are trying
Speaker 2: to key in on when trying to find places worth
Speaker 2: hunting in this vast terrain.
Speaker 3: The other thing is too, So even if it's thick,
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily have to go a long long way
Speaker 3: for the thick stuff. It can be maybe the overlook
Speaker 3: thick stuff. So I was just thinking about this, like
Speaker 3: a perfect example. One of the places I hunted here
Speaker 3: and shot one of my best bucks in an opening
Speaker 3: day a handful of years ago, was a favorite spot
Speaker 3: for kids to just ride dirt bikes. It was a
Speaker 3: little dooney area and I literally was probably one hundred
Speaker 3: yards from this little location where this little rise and
Speaker 3: everybody testing out their side by sides there and they're
Speaker 3: super loud, but this huge ridge dumped over into this
Speaker 3: perfect little funnel and it attached two locations. I knew
Speaker 3: they were high on the ridge with acorns and they're
Speaker 3: going down to the swap. There's people that hunted there,
Speaker 3: and I would listen to them, like discharge their crossbows
Speaker 3: at night. They're so close to me. I mean, I
Speaker 3: had people come in with dirt bikes and the deer
Speaker 3: would just freeze and let them do their thing. I'd
Speaker 3: have bird hunters come in and park in this location
Speaker 3: and I'd hear them load their dogs and I'd watch
Speaker 3: dos just pause and watch them. They couldn't see them,
Speaker 3: but there was tall grass really low like eight foot,
Speaker 3: like spruce and stuff, and the deer just used it
Speaker 3: all the time. It looked silly. I was so afraid
Speaker 3: of people seeing me in there because it like this
Speaker 3: looks ridiculous, and it's so easy to get to. I
Speaker 3: thought somebody would take the spot. But I shot one
Speaker 3: of my best bucks, you know, one hundred yards away
Speaker 3: from where people loved to try their dirt bikes. But
Speaker 3: it's nice and thick and it connected two places where
Speaker 3: they wanted to go.
Speaker 2: Was there any like deer sign within that when you
Speaker 2: first discovered it, that did you say it? Because I
Speaker 2: got to imagine, like you see something like that, like
Speaker 2: the terrain itself, and you say like, oh hey, Oakridge
Speaker 2: leads down to a swamp, little tight spot, like okay,
Speaker 2: this makes sense, but it's also right next to this
Speaker 2: highly used area. What was it that confirmed for you, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: this is worth my time?
Speaker 3: There was it was full of rubs and it seemed
Speaker 3: like they it was full of rubs and kind of
Speaker 3: like what I said my uncles, I said, you know what,
Speaker 3: I got to give this a shot. So I sat
Speaker 3: it and then I eventually narrowed things down because I
Speaker 3: saw it to be and they just really stuck to
Speaker 3: the cedars. I watched Bucks spar in there, and they
Speaker 3: left a lot of sign and I think it was
Speaker 3: almost like a little bit of a staging area where
Speaker 3: even though it was by people, they just felt really
Speaker 3: protected in there. You couldn't see them. Even if he
Speaker 3: got to the top of the broom where the people
Speaker 3: were riding bikes, you could not see him in there.
Speaker 3: So they're comfortable. And that was when I used to
Speaker 3: use trail cameras, and that might be another subject I
Speaker 3: used the trail cameras and narrow down like you know,
Speaker 3: will they use this trail eventually that I was sitting
Speaker 3: on it and the one guy made a mistake. The
Speaker 3: sad part about that whole story is it's one of
Speaker 3: my favorite spots and it was basically turned into a
Speaker 3: parking they like clear cut it like two years after
Speaker 3: I shot that buck, so totally gone. It is a bummer.
Speaker 2: The the the sign thing is of interest to me
Speaker 2: because at least where I hunt in my part of
Speaker 2: northern Michigan, and when I've hunted other big timber areas,
Speaker 2: like I've hunted something kind of like this in Arkansas,
Speaker 2: kind of like this in Alabama some other places like
Speaker 2: that northern Minnesota, and there's just not the same deer
Speaker 2: numbers that we have in Illinois, Iowa, Southern Michigan. And
Speaker 2: when I am looking for a good area here in
Speaker 2: southern Michigan, I'm looking for a lot of sign, Like
Speaker 2: I mean, scrapes everywhere, like big huge rubs, like over
Speaker 2: and over and over, and I need that level of
Speaker 2: concentration to convince me that this is the spot. But
Speaker 2: when you hunt a big woods place with lower deer densities,
Speaker 2: I'm starting to learn, like a little bit means a
Speaker 2: lot more in those zones. Is that what you found
Speaker 2: or how would you define like what's enough sign for
Speaker 2: you to care when you're looking in your area?
Speaker 3: So when it comes to sign here, sometimes when there's
Speaker 3: a lot of sign, I stay away from it because
Speaker 3: I just went up the other day. I was fortunate
Speaker 3: to shoot a buck on the second day season here,
Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm going to do a little
Speaker 3: quick scout and check out some of the scrapes that
Speaker 3: I found in the winter. Went and checked them all out,
Speaker 3: and a lot of the like rich top open scrape
Speaker 3: rubs this camera camera ladder, camera ladder. It's like, well,
Speaker 3: all right, don't even pay attention to that. So going
Speaker 3: back down, like I said, where's the thick stuff? And
Speaker 3: then as there are a couple of rubs in there,
Speaker 3: maybe a scrape like they're using it, you know, just
Speaker 3: stick it out here because as you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: even in the southern Michigan, the odds of a good
Speaker 3: buck moving in daylight are very very minimal, especially up here,
Speaker 3: and the higher percentage is going to be right at
Speaker 3: the krack of daylight and dusk. So where are they
Speaker 3: gonna be It's not gonna be anywhere near food. It's
Speaker 3: be anywhere near those dish out scrapes on top of
Speaker 3: the ridge, especially with cameras and ladders by them. It's
Speaker 3: gonna be really really close to their bed. And that's
Speaker 3: why I spent all my time there, even like early
Speaker 3: on season. I the only time they're gonna be on
Speaker 3: their feet is when they're close to bed, and I
Speaker 3: just got them on the way out, and I just
Speaker 3: got them on the way back in, unless I get
Speaker 3: lucky like I did the other night and they're rutting
Speaker 3: a little bit.
Speaker 2: But that's nice when that happens. Yes, Yeah, give me
Speaker 2: some more detail on the other things you're looking for
Speaker 2: when you're scouting. So it sounds like you're looking for
Speaker 2: the obvious, you know, the thickest stuff. You're looking for
Speaker 2: standard deer sign and maybe not the most concentration of them,
Speaker 2: more so like the off the radar, smaller spots near
Speaker 2: the thick Is there anything else when you're out there
Speaker 2: scouting that tells you like, okay, yes this is an area.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the one thing when it comes to like
Speaker 3: those particular areas is you think about, like, where are
Speaker 3: they going to feel safe and where can they escape
Speaker 3: multiple areas, because another big thing that I come into
Speaker 3: contact with here is a tremendous amount of bird hunters.
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of grouse hunters and they pound
Speaker 3: the ground from the fifteenth through December, and a lot
Speaker 3: of the good betting areas when they do the little
Speaker 3: timber cuts and things like that, are like the best
Speaker 3: betting areas for white tails and their best areas for
Speaker 3: grouse and woodcot These deer are getting jumped all the time.
Speaker 3: I mean they're getting bumped from their bed all the time.
Speaker 3: So I like to go in those spots where like
Speaker 3: they have multiple accesses to it's going to be the
Speaker 3: place where they just feel like the most safe. So
Speaker 3: I look at where I know a lot of guys
Speaker 3: bird hunt, Where do a lot of the deer, where
Speaker 3: are they're going to go? And what makes the most
Speaker 3: sense to be safe when you're constantly being jumped And
Speaker 3: I think, I mean it's not like new information that
Speaker 3: people talk about it all the time, but you know,
Speaker 3: when they survive being jumped multiple times, I think they
Speaker 3: just like, Okay, that worked, that worked, that worked, that worked.
Speaker 3: So I just looked for those spots that make the
Speaker 3: most sense where you're going to survive with that much
Speaker 3: disruption on a day to day basis, you know. So,
Speaker 3: like you said, there's not going to be a ton
Speaker 3: of scrapes there. Those are all where up on the
Speaker 3: ridges where everybody's got their cell cameras on, I'm looking
Speaker 3: for there's a handful of rubs going into just this
Speaker 3: nasty pocket of grass or something like that.
Speaker 2: What about just edges in our edges to you, because
Speaker 2: that's that's something I've started trying to key in on
Speaker 2: up in our area, is there's there's not as many
Speaker 2: obvious edges. But I've started wondering, like, are these back
Speaker 2: in the timber edges of a deciduous forest and a
Speaker 2: cedary pocket or the edges of a cedary pocket and
Speaker 2: then cattail area. Are they using those edges almost like
Speaker 2: a travel corridor down For me, in southern Michigan, it
Speaker 2: might be a thin strip of timber as a funnel,
Speaker 2: But in northern Michigan maybe it's just the edge of
Speaker 2: swamp and high ground and they're they're traveling along that
Speaker 2: in a similar fashion. Can you tell me if that's
Speaker 2: something that factors in it all and if so, what
Speaker 2: are you looking at.
Speaker 3: I think that's paramot. I mean that's huge, Like you
Speaker 3: have to find that little teeny I don't care if
Speaker 3: it's a soft first obviously it's creeks and waterways and
Speaker 3: stuff that's automatically going to shove stuff locations. The little
Speaker 3: teeny differences are just like huge. And up here they
Speaker 3: a lot of like cutting, so things can rotate. Like
Speaker 3: I was just talking about one of my favorite stands cut.
Speaker 3: I can't remember how many acres created all, you know,
Speaker 3: a bunch of new edges, right, but even down on
Speaker 3: the thick stuff, like it turns from cedar to like
Speaker 3: tall grass, it turns from cedar to like spruce, It
Speaker 3: turns some cedar to a popple cut a little teeny rise.
Speaker 3: You know those things. My eyes just go to them,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, and I think, like you said,
Speaker 3: like it makes a world of difference because usually when
Speaker 3: there's a change, there is some sort of sign there.
Speaker 3: So it's like that's absolutely paramount. That's why when I
Speaker 3: see the big parky stuff in the Federal Line, I
Speaker 3: just wander and go like I have no idea where
Speaker 3: I would ever go here. And that's why I never do.
Speaker 3: I just stick to I love looking for the features.
Speaker 3: They show the way, all right.
Speaker 2: So let's imagine, uh, November arrives and you do not
Speaker 2: have both buck tags filled already.
Speaker 4: You do right now.
Speaker 2: You're one of the lucky few Michigan hunters that has
Speaker 2: both your buck tags failed. You've had a great season.
Speaker 2: But let's say you've got tag still in your pocket.
Speaker 2: November is here. Can you describe to me a couple
Speaker 2: of your ideal November ambush locations and in detail, like
Speaker 2: paint a couple of pictures for me. I'd love to hear,
Speaker 2: like the kind of spot that you find and that
Speaker 2: you spend some quality timing in November.
Speaker 3: A very large chunk of my rut locations are based
Speaker 3: on water. I know with water, there's going to be
Speaker 3: funnels automatically, Yeah they do crosswater, of course, but there's
Speaker 3: gonna be marsh grass. I like going to places where
Speaker 3: they disappear to or the bigger bucks in the area
Speaker 3: they feel more comfortable pursuing, Like sure you're gonna see
Speaker 3: the random one running across fields chasin does, but that
Speaker 3: doesn't just does not happen very often. So, just like
Speaker 3: I said, I have fine rivers, I fine water, and
Speaker 3: I like to go to areas where like you know,
Speaker 3: when it comes to either you know, lockdown or whatever,
Speaker 3: the bigger bucks don't mind chasing in there. The does
Speaker 3: will be in there and they'll actually be more active chasing.
Speaker 3: So like recently, that deer I shot just the other day.
Speaker 3: It's early, I mean it was two days ago and
Speaker 3: it's relatively early. I mean it's pre run, of course,
Speaker 3: but he was bird dog and just like a dog
Speaker 3: looking for his tennis ball in the backyard. After a
Speaker 3: four point came through with a dough. He came through
Speaker 3: five minutes later, and he was like he was trying
Speaker 3: to find her, but I was in thick stuff. You know.
Speaker 3: He wasn't like venturing out on an oak ridge exposing himself.
Speaker 3: He was down in it. So if I'm gonna run
Speaker 3: on all my spots are you know, extremely funnel specific,
Speaker 3: always look for water. Most of my rough spots always
Speaker 3: have at least a creek, a river or something. And
Speaker 3: I am where they're going to funnel down. Because you know,
Speaker 3: you're a numbers nerd when it comes to you, I've
Speaker 3: seen your spreadsheets and all that stuff. I mean, it
Speaker 3: really is it's you're playing. You're playing the odds, So like,
Speaker 3: where am I going to be and where am I
Speaker 3: going to be able to kill a big one? Because
Speaker 3: not only does he have to be here, but he
Speaker 3: also has to be within range of me to get him.
Speaker 3: So I know you were talking about it earlier this
Speaker 3: year about shrinking your range, like your actual archery range
Speaker 3: to eliminate some of the variables. You know, So not
Speaker 3: only do I have to find where an actual shooter
Speaker 3: is going to hang out, but I also want to
Speaker 3: make sure because more you get one shot, like I figure,
Speaker 3: like in a year, I'm probably going to have one shot,
Speaker 3: and that'll be a great year if I get a shot,
Speaker 3: which is totally different from a lot of other people
Speaker 3: that are entering the honeywheel, Like like literally been planning
Speaker 3: all year long for maybe drawing the bullbag once it
Speaker 3: better be near me, I better be able to kill it,
Speaker 3: so I don't sit in a location where I get
Speaker 3: to see about two hundred yards off dog in the
Speaker 3: door or something like. If I'm gonna I gotta be
Speaker 3: where he is and he's gonna be right there, and
Speaker 3: I got to be able to have a chance to
Speaker 3: kill it. So rivers helped me, and you know, topography's
Speaker 3: got to get him near that tree I'm in.
Speaker 2: Help me understand what a funnel like? So near river
Speaker 2: or creek, what's the funnel look like in that situation
Speaker 2: that you're keying in unduring the rut? Is it when
Speaker 2: you say a funnel, is it literally the cover pinches
Speaker 2: down around that or is it like, uh, I don't know,
Speaker 2: tell me more.
Speaker 3: Yeah. One one location I hunt has a you know,
Speaker 3: it's an old cattle passure, so it literally has an old,
Speaker 3: overgrown fence and automn olive that for the most part,
Speaker 3: is impenetrable. It's been there for years and years and
Speaker 3: years and creates a gap about ten yards wide to
Speaker 3: a river that drops down. So I mean it's a
Speaker 3: literal block. And I know if I sit there long enough,
Speaker 3: because the timber that connects these larger farms, they're gonna
Speaker 3: go by there. I just got to be there, and
Speaker 3: I had to be in the right tree, and I
Speaker 3: had to be ready for it. So it's a literal
Speaker 3: wall of autumnilive and wire and then a river. So
Speaker 3: it's a very literal funnel. But like the one I
Speaker 3: was sitting in the other day, it's a transition from
Speaker 3: cedar spruce too, opens up to a little bit of
Speaker 3: like tall grass and like that scraggly poppole and something
Speaker 3: that's really changed things up here. I believe it's happened
Speaker 3: down there too, Like the ash trees, right, all your
Speaker 3: ash trees are basically the mature ones have been falling
Speaker 3: for what is it, almost ten years now, totally open
Speaker 3: the canopy up in weird spots in swamps. So some
Speaker 3: of my spots I've been hunting for years. It's amazing
Speaker 3: how different they look because they're predominantly ash and then pine.
Speaker 3: All those ash have died, and now we get a
Speaker 3: lot of grass, you know, because it's getting sunlight now.
Speaker 3: So where I was hunting the other day, it was
Speaker 3: just a change from cedar and spruce to tall grass
Speaker 3: and like new popple, you know, and finding like beds
Speaker 3: along the line, like right underneath the ceedars matting down
Speaker 3: that grass around that edge is where I was. So
Speaker 3: it's an edge within a swap, is what I was
Speaker 3: hunting the other day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I read one of your pieces and you were
Speaker 2: describing a tight cedar funnel, and I see cedars all
Speaker 2: over the place where I hunt, But I don't know
Speaker 2: if I ever found a cedar funnel, I'd be curious
Speaker 2: to hear what you meant by that and what.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's literally in some cases it's like, so
Speaker 3: there's ridges around where I live in and basically at
Speaker 3: the bottom of this ridge, it goes straight from cedar
Speaker 3: and a little creek to straight popple and then up
Speaker 3: to oak. So there's literally just a little band of
Speaker 3: cedars running right down the bottom of this valley that
Speaker 3: eventually gets into a larger band of cedars, you know,
Speaker 3: So that the cut was probably fifteen years ago, you know,
Speaker 3: so they left the ceedar down there, and now it's
Speaker 3: all poppole that's really high now with the sporadic oak.
Speaker 3: So it's twenty yards wide of cedar on the bottom
Speaker 3: is and it goes about one hundred yards back into
Speaker 3: a larger group of seedar. So it's literally a tight.
Speaker 2: And so have you found like inside a forest where
Speaker 2: there's maybe mostly deciduous forest and then you have these
Speaker 2: pockets of seaters or strips of ceedars. Do you see
Speaker 2: that the deer will prefer to travel along and or
Speaker 2: bed in those pockets of cedars where you have that
Speaker 2: just different thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, is that right? I mean like edges, I mean
Speaker 3: like those little edges like we were talking about earlier.
Speaker 3: At least you're gonna see that's we're gonna they're gonna
Speaker 3: drop like a strap a scrape there and the point
Speaker 3: of that or or check that edge, because dose will
Speaker 3: be hanging out there because the bird hunters had pushed
Speaker 3: them out of the popple cuts and they headed down
Speaker 3: into all the dead falls and under the seedars to
Speaker 3: get out of the way because they're probably gonna stick
Speaker 3: to the poppol for woodcut like that. So it's literally
Speaker 3: where you'll find that, you know, the couple meaningful scrapes
Speaker 3: and rubs down there, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you hunt any places that are so thick
Speaker 2: so much of the time that it's like impossible to
Speaker 2: decide where the best thick stuff is or where the
Speaker 2: betting is because it all seems like it could be.
Speaker 2: That's something I've encountered in parts where like there's so
Speaker 2: much swamp, there's so much of this thick edge and
Speaker 2: stuff that it's just endless, And then I'm looking at
Speaker 2: it all and saying, well, where the heck do you
Speaker 2: how do you pick a spot within this massive area
Speaker 2: of thick and I almost start thinking, like, maybe you're
Speaker 2: looking for the opposite, you're looking for the opening in
Speaker 2: the thick, because that makes it different. Is that something
Speaker 2: you have any experience with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, there's a lot of challenges that come with
Speaker 3: hunting thick stuff. There's been a couple of spots where
Speaker 3: I said, like, okay, this is the only literal place
Speaker 3: they can walk through here, and then I'll see them
Speaker 3: going through where I thought it was impossible, like the
Speaker 3: weird Cedar dead fall, Like how do they even get
Speaker 3: through there? You think they'd have to avoid and go
Speaker 3: by me? And they don't. A lot of my spots too,
Speaker 3: if I go set them up, and like late summer,
Speaker 3: they look ridiculous because you get up there and the
Speaker 3: smaller trees still have their leaves on it, and it's
Speaker 3: like how do I even shoot anything in here? But
Speaker 3: once the leaves kind of fall down, like okay, now
Speaker 3: we have an option. So up here, like you said,
Speaker 3: there are some giant, giant swamps, and the only way
Speaker 3: you can kind of find out, I mean a lot
Speaker 3: of trial and error, like work your way in like okay,
Speaker 3: that's two times in a row. They've gone over there.
Speaker 3: Let's go see why they have making an adjustment. You're like, okay,
Speaker 3: there's two dead falls, two root balls that make like
Speaker 3: a little channel, and they like that one. So that's
Speaker 3: a big aspect because it can be just like the
Speaker 3: parky for us. Some of these cedar swamps up here.
Speaker 3: It's like, okay, just a long long way and even
Speaker 3: when you think you haven't narrowed down, no, they'll go
Speaker 3: right through that car app too. So you have to
Speaker 3: find like the little mini travel corridors too there and
Speaker 3: that's what helps in the spring. That's why I always
Speaker 3: go out in the spring in late winter, because they're
Speaker 3: a little more madded down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about cuts? You've mentioned cuts a couple times,
Speaker 2: and that's one of the first things I think a
Speaker 2: lot of guys can kind of wrap their head around
Speaker 2: when they're hunting big timber areas. It's like, Okay, that
Speaker 2: seems obvious. There's that there's been some form of cut there.
Speaker 2: We have some form of sunlight reaching the floor, we
Speaker 2: have some kinds of edges. How do how do those
Speaker 2: factor into your rut strategy?
Speaker 3: Huge Greek because they can they leave a couple oaks
Speaker 3: in there, and this year we actually have some acorns.
Speaker 3: It's been three years about acorns, which really changes things
Speaker 3: around here. There's there's spots where I hunt. I might
Speaker 3: as well sit in Walmart parking lot if there's not acorns.
Speaker 3: If there's acorns, it's going to be a good year
Speaker 3: in this this little spot because they will bed and
Speaker 3: we'll use this ridge. There's no acorns, don't even bother
Speaker 3: set in a stand, you're wasting hours. So the thing
Speaker 3: about the cuts that are unique is they leave those
Speaker 3: big oaks and so maybe you know they have the
Speaker 3: tall grass, they love eating the popples. The popple shoots also,
Speaker 3: and then when the popple will drop their leaves, you
Speaker 3: still these giant oaks that are they're rain and acorns.
Speaker 3: It makes it difficult to hunt because you can't set
Speaker 3: up in there, so then you're like you fall back
Speaker 3: to the edge. So it can be a little maddening
Speaker 3: sometimes because you can see them in there. You can
Speaker 3: see them chasing in there, but they stay there. They
Speaker 3: don't come out of it because they have everything. They
Speaker 3: have cover, they have food, they have bedding. You know,
Speaker 3: they can hang out and then in the dose like
Speaker 3: it they have, you know, the acorns in there later on,
Speaker 3: it makes it for me like that makes that one
Speaker 3: spot of mind so disheartening. You basically can't hunt that
Speaker 3: spot for years and years and years until those popples
Speaker 3: get big and bunch die and they starts to park again.
Speaker 3: So you just you're left with that edge and it
Speaker 3: can be very difficult because I would just talking to
Speaker 3: one of my friends today, is he's got a spot.
Speaker 3: He's seen a couple of nice shooters, but they just
Speaker 3: don't come out of there, and you can't get a
Speaker 3: stand in there.
Speaker 2: So there's so so is it worth hunting the edge
Speaker 2: at all? In hopes that you can pull them up?
Speaker 3: Can you?
Speaker 2: Can you call them out? Do they ever cruise that
Speaker 2: edge or do they do they check the downwind side
Speaker 2: of it during the run? Is that effective?
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, the down one side. And then if
Speaker 3: you can find that spot where maybe they want to
Speaker 3: go cut the cut, you know, like maybe they need
Speaker 3: to check things out, they need to travel. So sometimes
Speaker 3: these cuts will come and they'll they'll stop a cut
Speaker 3: where it's an old mature ridge, so they'll belly around
Speaker 3: that mature ridge and stay to that one little point
Speaker 3: rather than going over the top, they stay around that
Speaker 3: point and they stick to that particular part of the cut,
Speaker 3: you know, So once again finding that little bit of
Speaker 3: differentiation within these cuts. You know, maybe like I said,
Speaker 3: that little tight seedar funnel pops into one. Now you've
Speaker 3: got a ceedar tree you can sit in, and they're
Speaker 3: going to go around that point of that usually have
Speaker 3: a scrape on the end of it. So like the
Speaker 3: minor differentiation is huge with those. So yeah, it's it
Speaker 3: can be manning. You can see them and hear them
Speaker 3: out there. But if you can find that one little
Speaker 3: thing that makes them want to go maybe to another cut,
Speaker 3: a little teeny corridor that attaches to cuts, that's what
Speaker 3: you have to look for, all right.
Speaker 2: So so differentiation around clearcuts, finding some of these interior edges,
Speaker 2: the thickest stuff we can find, any kind of funnel,
Speaker 2: especially around water. Are there any other major rut type
Speaker 2: locations that you really like to ken on during during
Speaker 2: the month of November that we haven't covered yet?
Speaker 3: You know, I do like going I always like going
Speaker 3: near their beds, but I like to just know, I
Speaker 3: like to go where I feel like they're not risking it.
Speaker 3: Trying to go find another dough like I like. I
Speaker 3: think they like to find them around here where they
Speaker 3: know they're not putting themselves in danger. I've seen a
Speaker 3: lot of awesome or heard a lot of rud active
Speaker 3: because I can't see them, which is another part about
Speaker 3: being thick. I've heard allow of them chasing in those
Speaker 3: swamps because I think they just feel comfortable in there.
Speaker 3: They're not exposing themselves. Those do lay in there, and
Speaker 3: then sometimes when they find that hot dough, they can
Speaker 3: kind of maybe hide, you know, they can get into
Speaker 3: one of those pockets and maybe have them to themselves,
Speaker 3: you know, because it is so thick, they're not risking it.
Speaker 3: So I love being you know. Some of my favorite
Speaker 3: spots like that one fence I was talking about. It's
Speaker 3: super super thick on the back of a cattle pasture.
Speaker 3: They're not going to walk across that pasture during the day.
Speaker 3: They have that one little area that they can get
Speaker 3: through to go to another chunk of property. It's stopped
Speaker 3: by an elbow over river. It's literally blocked by a
Speaker 3: wall of bottom. All of they're gonna come look for it.
Speaker 3: They're gonna come through there and go transfer from farm
Speaker 3: to farm through that little teeny spot, and I feel
Speaker 3: like they're just comfortable chasing in there. They're not exposing themselves.
Speaker 3: Even like the guys shot the other night. It's really on.
Speaker 3: He was acting really silly for mature buck up here,
Speaker 3: But I don't think he felt like he was exposing himself.
Speaker 3: You know, he felt like it was free to reign
Speaker 3: in there without being in danger.
Speaker 2: What about when gun season hits? So when this episode airs,
Speaker 2: it should be airing November fourteenth, So there's gonna be
Speaker 2: a lot of folks listening to this right right as
Speaker 2: gun seasons. Yeah, gun season kicking off in Michigan, and
Speaker 2: you know many other states their gun season kickoff middle
Speaker 2: of November or late November. You know, Thanksgivings coming up soon.
Speaker 3: This is this is a.
Speaker 2: Time when a lot of people and a lot of
Speaker 2: things are shifting gears in the woods. Do your hunt
Speaker 2: locations change during the gun season or is it more
Speaker 2: of the same because you're already in thick stuff.
Speaker 3: So very similar to my longest archery shot being you know,
Speaker 3: just over thirty yards, My longest rifle shot is seventy.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 4: I love it, seventy.
Speaker 3: Yards with the old carbon, you know, thirty odds. It's
Speaker 3: when it comes to rifle, it's where are they going
Speaker 3: to go? I mean it honestly, it's really it's it's
Speaker 3: kind of weird to think about. Right around like one
Speaker 3: o'clock on November fifteenth, it's like, well, deer done doing
Speaker 3: deer things where I live, It's over. I mean it
Speaker 3: really is. Now. Yeah, you might catch one running here
Speaker 3: and there, but when it comes to like feed to
Speaker 3: bad patterning is done. I mean deer doing deer things,
Speaker 3: and that is straight up over. So when it comes
Speaker 3: to rifles, like where are they hiding, it's just like
Speaker 3: where are they running away? You're basically hunting hunters. Is
Speaker 3: where what I'm doing, like where are they going to run?
Speaker 3: When the melee takes place for that first day? So
Speaker 3: it's I guess you could say more of the same,
Speaker 3: but I am not even mean, I guess you consider sign.
Speaker 3: I'm just looking for where they're going to go to.
Speaker 2: Hide, and is there anything else other than just the
Speaker 2: thickest stuff that they find as being the hiding spots.
Speaker 3: Well, that's where you really get into who's going to walk?
Speaker 3: That's where you can really separate yourself like where with
Speaker 3: the Boseason, I'll look for those maybe little hidi holes
Speaker 3: that aren't that far of a walk. It's just actually
Speaker 3: a good location for them to go. That's where you
Speaker 3: can start differentiating yourself up here, is like how far
Speaker 3: are you willing to walk? And how far are you like,
Speaker 3: you know, let's think walking around in the dark finding
Speaker 3: these swamp spots. It's not easy. It's not easy at all.
Speaker 3: So if you're willing to do that, you can separate
Speaker 3: yourself from some other individuals. And that's where I think
Speaker 3: you can really make your mark, is like how far
Speaker 3: are you willing to go into that hell hole to
Speaker 3: get away from everybody else? So that's when I really
Speaker 3: consider that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a little different hiking in a northern
Speaker 2: Michigan or northern Minnesota, deep dark, sketchy swamp than it
Speaker 2: is walking along a cornfield edge, that's for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Or dragging.
Speaker 3: It out, dragging out. That's the other thing is I've
Speaker 3: one of my favorite rifle spots that I've had some
Speaker 3: luck over the last couple of years. It's an absolute
Speaker 3: nightmare to get a deer out. Nightmare. So not many
Speaker 3: maybe people just rule it out right there that I'm
Speaker 3: not going there. I can never get off.
Speaker 2: So other than going to the darkest, nastiest, hard to
Speaker 2: get to hell holes during gun season, is there anything
Speaker 2: else unique you're doing once gun season hits? Are you
Speaker 2: hunting different hours, longer hours, shorter hours? Are you doing
Speaker 2: anything different tactic wise? I don't know what that might be,
Speaker 2: But is there anything unique on the gun side of things?
Speaker 3: Oh that's the other thing too that's like disappointing, is
Speaker 3: you know, when it comes to the rifle season up period,
Speaker 3: why bother bring a grunk call? Why bother bring you
Speaker 3: all those other things? You know, it's just it's just
Speaker 3: you're you're at the the mercy of what everybody else
Speaker 3: is doing. And the other thing about being up here
Speaker 3: as well, as you know with your family deer camp,
Speaker 3: is that there's historical spots, right. I mean, no matter
Speaker 3: what property you're going to, that's for so and so hunts,
Speaker 3: that's for so and so hunts, that's for so and
Speaker 3: so hunts, And it's just like things have been established.
Speaker 3: It's kind of funny around here, you know, even on
Speaker 3: state lands, like we don't go there because that's where
Speaker 3: those guys go. We don't go there because that's where
Speaker 3: they go, and we're in the area where I hunt
Speaker 3: around my house. It's extremely established. It's like finding a
Speaker 3: spot's difficult because until somebody dies or gives up, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean, it's like just dives or like quits.
Speaker 3: It's like, well, we just don't go there. They've been
Speaker 3: there since they're sixteen, Okay, we don't go there. And
Speaker 3: so it's it's kind of unique because rifle season is
Speaker 3: such a tradition. It's like, well, you can't even worry
Speaker 3: about wind because you have your spot, you know, for
Speaker 3: the most part. Because I was just looking at one
Speaker 3: of your recent articles while you're sitting in camps, like
Speaker 3: you don't even worry about wind. It's like, because I'm
Speaker 3: going to sit my spot because I have nowhere else
Speaker 3: to go because everybody else has been established on in
Speaker 3: my camp or whatever. So it's it's such a different
Speaker 3: game for me. When the bow goes in the case,
Speaker 3: it's just like, all right, here we go the rifle
Speaker 3: and we'll see what happens, you know, which is always
Speaker 3: why it's just so depressed. I mean, it's somewhat depressing
Speaker 3: for me. It turns into more of a families there.
Speaker 3: Buck pulls are the main deal, and hopefully I can
Speaker 3: be one that it was my turn.
Speaker 2: Yeah you know, I follow you, Okay, So zooming out
Speaker 2: of zooming, out of gun season, and just to November
Speaker 2: in general, all day sits yes or no.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if I have the opportunity, if it's right, Like
Speaker 3: you know, last November, you know, I was playing sitting
Speaker 3: all day and I think I shot November two shot
Speaker 3: eleven thirty. I shot the buck last year and then
Speaker 3: last year rife season. I think I shot mine at
Speaker 3: twelve thirty. So November fifteenth, twelve thirty, November second, eleven thirty,
Speaker 3: I shot those deer, so the typical hunt until ten
Speaker 3: I would have been still holding one of my tags.
Speaker 3: So those are both midday deer right there, just in
Speaker 3: the last year. So when it's the time here, especially
Speaker 3: like I said, the spots, I like they feel as
Speaker 3: comfortable as they can feel cruising those areas when it
Speaker 3: comes to November. So if I can, I do it.
Speaker 3: The hardest part is I got to pick the right
Speaker 3: personal day, you know, and it's hard to do when
Speaker 3: you're looking at the weather. It's like, okay, when is
Speaker 3: the weather going to match for me to sit all
Speaker 3: day and try to pick those days.
Speaker 2: So what is that kind of day like for I
Speaker 2: can make some assumptions, but I'd love to hear from
Speaker 2: you specifically, what's the kind of the conditions that the
Speaker 2: date that what's it have to be for you to say, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to use the vacation day or
Speaker 2: use the hey family, Sorry, I got a hunt today card.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So like last week and you know in Michigan,
Speaker 3: you know, it was highs in the forties. It was
Speaker 3: a Sunday morning. It was twenty four degrees up here
Speaker 3: in the morning, nice and it was like the overcast
Speaker 3: really bucky stuff. I mean, that's the stuff if you're
Speaker 3: a hunter. You can look on the map, go high
Speaker 3: at twenty four, overcast, five mile an hour, steady wind
Speaker 3: five to ten perfect. You know this week seventy five,
Speaker 3: it was seventy something here today. Yeah, I think on
Speaker 3: Friday it's going to be a high of forty two
Speaker 3: up here. You know, after three days or seventies, let's
Speaker 3: you know that big change get out there. But I
Speaker 3: just had a buddy text me before we went on.
Speaker 3: It's the most diaries seen this year this tonight, and
Speaker 3: it was seventy something here as far as deer numbers,
Speaker 3: no shooters, but we saw the most deer. So I mean,
Speaker 3: it's always a crapshoot, But if I have the chance to,
Speaker 3: like this Friday, I was actually going to take a
Speaker 3: personal day to go hunting because it's three days of
Speaker 3: rain and hot and it was down in the forties. Again,
Speaker 3: I had my personal day planned and luckily I didn't
Speaker 3: pull the trigger.
Speaker 2: Didn't need it.
Speaker 3: I kept in the bank.
Speaker 2: Uh huh smart. Okay, that that all makes sense. I'm
Speaker 2: tracking with that. And and here's the next kind of
Speaker 2: related thing, Yeah, which is when you hunt all day,
Speaker 2: you know you're you're committing to a location and you're
Speaker 2: giving it time, and you're hoping for that midday movement.
Speaker 2: And something I found and really I've debated this even
Speaker 2: in high deer density areas, but I think it's even
Speaker 2: more important in low deer density areas, like any kind
Speaker 2: of big woods habitat, or the northern any part of
Speaker 2: the part of the really upper Midwest, upper Northeast, those
Speaker 2: types of places. Is how much time you give a
Speaker 2: specific location, Right, there's a there's a tendency, especially now
Speaker 2: with everyone it'd being so trendy to be mobile, there's
Speaker 2: the tendency to want to bounce around a lot. Like
Speaker 2: I tried this spot this morning, I should try somewhere
Speaker 2: new in the evening and tomorrow and I try a
Speaker 2: new place. I'm always going to keep the deer on
Speaker 2: their toes. I'm surprised them and right it's the exact
Speaker 2: opposite of what it used to be where you would
Speaker 2: camp out one spot forever, because like you was described
Speaker 2: during gun season, where some people still do that, but
Speaker 2: you know, and worry sometimes I even go too far
Speaker 2: that way where I move too much and I don't
Speaker 2: give a spot enough time. How do you how do
Speaker 2: you think about that? How do you balance giving a
Speaker 2: place enough time versus moving around?
Speaker 3: So, I mean, I'm not the oldest guy in the
Speaker 3: worlds guys, I put a lot more time in than myself.
Speaker 3: But I guess I've learned through time that it just
Speaker 3: like it pays to be patient and like some of
Speaker 3: my spots, even if I've some of my favorite favorite spots,
Speaker 3: even if I've blown something out of there, I feel
Speaker 3: like deer are jumped so much. It doesn't make me
Speaker 3: panic as much. So one of my spots I've shot
Speaker 3: the most of my most of my larger bucks. Out
Speaker 3: of there's some years where it's just brutal. I have
Speaker 3: no idea why, because it's a round pasture and it
Speaker 3: connects some egg. Some years it's just amazing, and some
Speaker 3: years like I get skunked. I mean, I'll be skunk
Speaker 3: five times in a row, and then I'll go two
Speaker 3: years where I sat there once and shot a dandy,
Speaker 3: and I sat there another time and shot a dandy,
Speaker 3: and then I'll go another year I'll get skunked five times.
Speaker 3: Being skunked where I live and being skunked in my
Speaker 3: spots is not a typical. Not only am I really
Speaker 3: really in tight quarters, which means you're not going to
Speaker 3: see much. I get skunked a lot. I mean, so
Speaker 3: let's see, I sat seven times this year, and I
Speaker 3: think three of those times I saw deer, So four
Speaker 3: out of those times I didn't see anything. So I
Speaker 3: got seven times too.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, so you only saw deer on
Speaker 2: three hunts and you killed a good buck on two
Speaker 2: out of the three.
Speaker 5: That's yeah, that's.
Speaker 2: Pretty good batting percentage. Yeah, I mean it's yeah, but
Speaker 2: then four complete blanks complete.
Speaker 3: Yeah, not even in the game. It felt like there
Speaker 3: is I was the only person out there, just total,
Speaker 3: total dead, And that, honestly kind of just sounds like
Speaker 3: all my seasons just nothing, nothing, nothing, and then shot one.
Speaker 3: You know, that's very typical for me. So how do
Speaker 3: you know I'm a gut for punishment? I guess it's
Speaker 3: just yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So how do you know when to stay versus
Speaker 2: when to go? Like, is there do you have a set?
Speaker 2: Like I know some people have. I can't remember who
Speaker 2: it was, maybe with Steve Shirk or someone like that
Speaker 2: who hunts big woods in Pennsylvania or someone else like
Speaker 2: that who who kind of say like three three days
Speaker 2: per spot or or at least two days and if
Speaker 2: nothing happens in two days, well then I'm pulling Outy.
Speaker 2: Do you have a rule or is it something different
Speaker 2: for you?
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily have a rule. I kind of just
Speaker 3: used the gut and like that self talk which every
Speaker 3: hunter has, like you know, it's gonna happen. It's happened
Speaker 3: to you a million times. Eventually it's gonna work out.
Speaker 3: And one of the things that I kind of attribute
Speaker 3: that helps me with that is the time I spend
Speaker 3: with like trapping. I spend a lot of time trapping
Speaker 3: in the winter, and I actually wrote about that, which
Speaker 3: is kind of weird having a trapping article in a
Speaker 3: bowl hunting magazine. But it builds your callous up for
Speaker 3: just failure. You know, every time I think I got
Speaker 3: stuff set up that's going to be great, I walk
Speaker 3: up to empty stuff. You know, it's like, all right, well,
Speaker 3: next time it's gonna be full. And then you have
Speaker 3: two traps that are empty, like next time. You know,
Speaker 3: it's just I guess I can take a punch or
Speaker 3: something like that. I don't know what it is, but
Speaker 3: it helps train me to you've done this before. You know,
Speaker 3: you've skunk three times. But it all takes that one sit.
Speaker 3: So if it just doesn't feel like if it gets desperate,
Speaker 3: I might do like a quick little skull like okay,
Speaker 3: I got to see what's on the ground. I gotta
Speaker 3: see it, like is it really being you know, used
Speaker 3: at all? And that's why, like I said, a couple
Speaker 3: of spots of without acre, I learned that you know
Speaker 3: the hard way, Like, okay, looking in my notes, acorn year,
Speaker 3: great non acre year, total waste of time. So don't
Speaker 3: even do it this year. It looks nice you shot
Speaker 3: a deer there last year, but there's no acorns. Don't
Speaker 3: bother so and and this is where a lot of
Speaker 3: people can use cameras too to really that can be
Speaker 3: a boost in the movie. Right.
Speaker 2: So, so you said you don't use cameras anymore.
Speaker 3: Yeah, why, I don't know. Well, I used it a
Speaker 3: handful of years ago, and they're really effective. And I've
Speaker 3: been taking in outdoor media content since i was a
Speaker 3: little kid. I mean, whatever I could watch, whatever I
Speaker 3: could read. I always have been a magazine guy. I've
Speaker 3: always been a honting movie guy. From Monster Bucks to
Speaker 3: Dan Fitzgerald here in Michigan. You gotta go Dan Fitzgerald, right, yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean come on, I mean VHS stuff. Consume all
Speaker 3: those things, so I still consume it a lot. And
Speaker 3: for me watching some of the things on television now,
Speaker 3: I feel like it's surveillance, you know. I mean I
Speaker 3: literally listened to a guy talk about how he didn't
Speaker 3: have his camera go off within the next half hour.
Speaker 3: He's gonna get out of his stand because if it
Speaker 3: comes that late, he'll probably just spook it. Anyway, or
Speaker 3: you see those stands, you know they're like, oh, that
Speaker 3: camera went off, We're gonna stick it out. It just
Speaker 3: feels a little ichy to me. Yeah, I'm not saying
Speaker 3: it's wrong. They're ridiculously effective to the point where it's
Speaker 3: just like I kind of like going back to the
Speaker 3: total surprise of I did my work. This looks like
Speaker 3: a great spot. It feels good. Let's see if I'm right,
Speaker 3: which is not as effective as using cameras, but I
Speaker 3: like it. Like I said, this is all I have
Speaker 3: for my hunt? Oh yeah, I have whitetail in Michigan.
Speaker 3: If every one is it twelve years maybe bear turkey
Speaker 3: hunting squirrel that kinds have Like my big game adventure
Speaker 3: is deer. So I kind of like the surprise. I mean,
Speaker 3: the last two years, every book I've shot, no idea
Speaker 3: who they were. First time I laid eyes on, I
Speaker 3: killed them. That's it. And the typical response is, got
Speaker 3: he pictures of this guy or whatever? Like nope, nothing,
Speaker 3: first time I saw him, I shot him.
Speaker 2: You know, I can't see the appeal to that. I
Speaker 2: can definitely see the appeal to that, And it's funny.
Speaker 2: I have more and more conversations as of late with
Speaker 2: folks who are kind of debating a similar change or
Speaker 2: switching away from sell cameras back to traditional cameras at least,
Speaker 2: or putting self imposed regulations of some kind on how
Speaker 2: they use sell cameras. I do something like that just
Speaker 2: because it does seem like it's getting more and more
Speaker 2: something that's not quite hunting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's not.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's wrong. It was very like one
Speaker 3: year that I use them. I really it helped me
Speaker 3: solve the riddle. And I had two great kills that year,
Speaker 3: and it really helped me narrow those things down. There's
Speaker 3: pre sell camera but it just seems just a little
Speaker 3: odd now that eighty acres, one hundred acres, so many
Speaker 3: cameras on them. I mean, where I hunt. I was
Speaker 3: talking with my buddies the other day. You almost had
Speaker 3: to be careful where you take a leak anymore. It's right.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like there's a scrape. I know, I'm
Speaker 3: going to find a camera on it. You know, in
Speaker 3: front of every ladder there's a camera on it. On
Speaker 3: the trails I'm walking, those cameras, I mean, I can't
Speaker 3: imagine how many pictures. There are me around here when
Speaker 3: it comes to scouting and stuff, So it just it
Speaker 3: just feels weird. And I know they're really intriguing. It's fun.
Speaker 3: Why they have they take the cool those pictures. It
Speaker 3: narrows things down. They have they motivate you, like I
Speaker 3: didn't see anything last night. They did move. They are here.
Speaker 3: And I think the other part too, that would drive
Speaker 3: me nuts to sell cameras is I'd have a hard
Speaker 3: time swallowing it is. If I picked a spot and
Speaker 3: I got real time proof that they're at the other spot,
Speaker 3: that would just that would just hurt me so bad.
Speaker 3: I'd rather I don't want to know. I want to know, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't. That's I liked.
Speaker 2: I set mine on a twenty four hour delay so
Speaker 2: that I never I never have to have that feeling.
Speaker 2: I'm never tempted to do something that's like real time
Speaker 2: that make me feel icky. Yeah, that's been the best
Speaker 2: way I've found to do it. But but yes, having
Speaker 2: more separation I think is better personally, at least just
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like the history. I like feeling like a
Speaker 3: little kid. That's the that's the that's the best part.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so kind of along these, not quite the same,
Speaker 2: but a little bit of a similar theme of sorts.
Speaker 2: I've heard you write about the importance of seat equity,
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people with cell cameras especially,
Speaker 2: you get more and more people who are like, I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna hunt because my buck isn't even daylighting yet
Speaker 2: on camera. Or it used to be just like ah,
Speaker 2: weather's bad or something, I'm not gonna go hunt, and
Speaker 2: now it's become like nobody wants to hunt unless their date,
Speaker 2: unless their target buck is daylighting right where they can
Speaker 2: hunt him, and otherwise I'm gonna wait until he shows up.
Speaker 2: You have a different approach. You advocate for seat equity.
Speaker 2: Can you can you tell me why that's important, especially
Speaker 2: in November? Yeah, I mean, and what do you mean
Speaker 2: by that? Define that too?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean you learn by doing. You know, I'm
Speaker 3: a reps guy. I played a lot of sports, and
Speaker 3: I played guitar, and the only way I ever got
Speaker 3: better is just hours and hours and hours are doing
Speaker 3: it in hunting and trapping and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: The more you are out there, the more things are
Speaker 3: going to have and even when they're not desirable and
Speaker 3: stuff that just doesn't make any sense, happens, and if
Speaker 3: you're there, you get to capitalize. And it's happened to
Speaker 3: me enough to make me just go, yeah, gotta go.
Speaker 3: And I don't get weeks off. I get a couple
Speaker 3: days off. I get a weekend, like hey, kids don't
Speaker 3: have anything going on. We got Wednesday night, you know,
Speaker 3: I got Friday night, and I'm going and I'm going
Speaker 3: to go. And because I've put in time, crazy things
Speaker 3: that didn't make sense turn out for a dead deer.
Speaker 3: I mean a perfect example of this. On October second,
Speaker 3: I had a deer, which I'm sure you've seen, like
Speaker 3: fawns that get the zoomies that just run for fun running. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: It was a half hour before dark. I heard something
Speaker 3: running out of the river and it was a buck,
Speaker 3: a shooter buck. It ran one lap around me, ran
Speaker 3: back out in the river. It ran another loop, and
Speaker 3: it looked like it was trying to pivot around my
Speaker 3: tree like he was doing like an exercise. It did
Speaker 3: three laps around me, and on the fourth lap I
Speaker 3: basically yelled at it and shot out at eighteen yards
Speaker 3: and it died forty yards from me. Wow, it made
Speaker 3: no sense. It made no sense. It was seventy some degrees,
Speaker 3: but I was sitting, and if it wasn't sitting, I
Speaker 3: wouldn't see that ridiculous activity. And it resulted in the
Speaker 3: dead book, you know, and the things that you just
Speaker 3: learn from being out there screwing up, sitting on a
Speaker 3: bad wind, forcing a spot. You just like, build up,
Speaker 3: build up that equity of eventually he is going to
Speaker 3: come here, or you're picking up more tactics that, Okay,
Speaker 3: that just didn't work. That was silly. I shouldn't have
Speaker 3: done that, Or you get that buck with the zuomis
Speaker 3: and he showed up in front of me, you know,
Speaker 3: or a coyote jumped something. I mean, I've killed enough
Speaker 3: things that didn't make any sense that it makes it
Speaker 3: worthwhile all for me to go. And you learn every time.
Speaker 3: You always learn, you know, it's just you learn by
Speaker 3: screwing up. That's the truth.
Speaker 5: A long.
Speaker 3: It's fun. I mean fun. I mean diesel peach. I mean,
Speaker 3: I only get so many times, so like I'm going,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, it's a blast, So I'm going
Speaker 3: to go out there and give it a whirl. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, that's the truth. Along the same lines that
Speaker 2: you mentioned that you have this experience as a trapper,
Speaker 2: and you've alluded to how that's helped you as a
Speaker 2: white tail hunter.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Are there any specific examples of things from trapping that
Speaker 2: you have then kind of applied into the whitetail world
Speaker 2: that have helped you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Funnels, you know, I mean, water edges, you know,
Speaker 3: cover you have to get an animal to go through
Speaker 3: this or this or whatever it might be. So it
Speaker 3: is the same exact mindset. I mean, I basically am
Speaker 3: carrying the same mindset from I mean all your long,
Speaker 3: I'm just changing genres. I'm looking at that edge, what
Speaker 3: is going to make that animal go here? And how
Speaker 3: do I get something there either at my tree stand
Speaker 3: or how do I get a three thirty in that
Speaker 3: spot that's going to make that animal go there? So
Speaker 3: kind along like the seed equity thing, you're basically like
Speaker 3: constantly training your brain to look for that stuff. I'm
Speaker 3: sure you do this too. When you drive around, when
Speaker 3: you look at a woodlight, you're like, ooh, always like that.
Speaker 3: Oh that would be I'd have to go check that out.
Speaker 3: And when I'm walking the woods. When you're a trapper,
Speaker 3: I mean you're looking for tracks all the time. You
Speaker 3: learn things because you're always looking at the ground. You
Speaker 3: learn about failure and just like any good like fishmen,
Speaker 3: you fish with those guys that just catch.
Speaker 2: Fish, yeah, fishy fish dudes.
Speaker 3: Yeah Yeah, it's just like they know where to cast,
Speaker 3: they know what water to forget about. It's like because
Speaker 3: they've just seated enough. So the trapping is what's done.
Speaker 3: That for me is like I am constantly in that
Speaker 3: mindset of like what is differentiating this spot to get
Speaker 3: an animal through that? Or how do I get them?
Speaker 3: And it's just constantly making my brain do that, and
Speaker 3: I think it's very beneficial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And again just the serendipity of just being
Speaker 2: outside enough you just see things and learn things that
Speaker 2: you never would expect. I gotta believe by trapping, you're
Speaker 2: spending that many more days out there. You happen to
Speaker 2: run across a great deer run, or you happen to
Speaker 2: find a shed antler, or you find a buckbed, or
Speaker 2: who knows what stuff you find when you're out there,
Speaker 2: but I bet you found some stuff that's helped like
Speaker 2: practically too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, literally, And talk about a good way to get permission.
Speaker 3: You know, one of the spots I hounted. I mean
Speaker 3: I helped a farmer out with his irrigation with beavers.
Speaker 3: He had to spend a bunch of money on an
Speaker 3: excavator to come in there. Didn't work. I said, just
Speaker 3: give me a couple of days. I'll get him out
Speaker 3: of there, and then you'll be problem solved. I got
Speaker 3: permission and to hunt that farm, or additional permission to
Speaker 3: hunt that farm as a result of helping that farmer out.
Speaker 3: And the other thing that you have to learn as
Speaker 3: a bull hunter, especially up here when it's just low density,
Speaker 3: is you have to learn failure and you got to
Speaker 3: learn to take it, make a minor adjustment, and try again.
Speaker 3: And that is like that's trapping to a t tons
Speaker 3: of failure. You're usually gonna mess out.
Speaker 2: Okay, I want to run through a couple last things
Speaker 2: before we run out of time, and so I'm kind
Speaker 2: of gonna gonna make this a little like rapid fiery shi.
Speaker 2: So real quick calling in relatively low deer density areas
Speaker 2: like this in big woods or big swamp does it
Speaker 2: work better because there's so few deer that when they
Speaker 2: do here one they want to come in. And because
Speaker 2: that's a rare special thing or does it work less
Speaker 2: frequently because they're just not hearing many calls, so they're
Speaker 2: actually wigged out by that.
Speaker 3: What I've found here is the only time I ever
Speaker 3: call is basically when I need to, when I see
Speaker 3: one or need to turn one.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 3: The bonus of being in thick stuff is they have
Speaker 3: to look, you know, they have they got to come
Speaker 3: see you, you know. So that's the bonus. You know,
Speaker 3: hunting open stuff, you know, guys are growing on a
Speaker 3: field edge. They can just go nothing there, you know,
Speaker 3: and my stuff. The bonus of when I do grunt,
Speaker 3: they typically I gotta go take a peek. You know,
Speaker 3: not all bucks, but I gotta go take a peek.
Speaker 3: I don't blind call at all. None, I don't. I
Speaker 3: did rattle a little bit when I was in college
Speaker 3: in Central Michigan. I actually shot, you know guys, just
Speaker 3: a little dinky six point. But he came sprinting like
Speaker 3: he's I mean, the hunt was fifteen minutes long. I
Speaker 3: was just trying it for fun. I was bored sprinting,
Speaker 3: and I shot this a little six point, you know,
Speaker 3: aspiring early on in October. But I have never blind
Speaker 3: called up here successfully, So I just ditched it. The
Speaker 3: only thing that I use use. The grunk call is
Speaker 3: always there because I've shot a lot of bucks with
Speaker 3: a couple of grunts because they were avoiding my tight area.
Speaker 3: I got a glimpse of antler, A couple of grunts,
Speaker 3: brought them to me, and I killed them. That is
Speaker 3: the only success I've had with calling. I don't use
Speaker 3: it to bring anything in without me seeing it first.
Speaker 2: When you say a couple of grunts, uh, is it
Speaker 2: just like a little content. It's a like a or
Speaker 2: you doing like a roar or snorts.
Speaker 3: Or anything grunt and then that's it because I feel,
Speaker 3: you know, And that's the one thing I've learned about
Speaker 3: all my scouting in the spring as well, when you
Speaker 3: wander around and it's like scent wick scent wick dripper
Speaker 3: that people leave in the trees, you know, cans left
Speaker 3: on the ground, you know, grunk calls. I know there's
Speaker 3: guys out there letting it rip all year. They got
Speaker 3: don't heat out there in early October, they're grunting, they're
Speaker 3: you know, using the can I just avoid it, you know,
Speaker 3: I want to be in a spot where just like
Speaker 3: I got their attention. I kind of want them to
Speaker 3: go like what was that? And then I want to
Speaker 3: check it out. I don't push it because I just
Speaker 3: feel I just feel it just gives me a way
Speaker 3: to it sound natural. Yeah. Yeah, because like the other
Speaker 3: day with that forepoint that was chasing that door, that
Speaker 3: was not just a grunt we had. It was accompanied
Speaker 3: with cracking timber, two deer running. It was a whole
Speaker 3: I can't do that, which is a gun. That was
Speaker 3: just and that's it, you know. I just wanted to like, hey,
Speaker 3: there's a buck over there, come check it out. So
Speaker 3: I usually just a couple of little ones to get
Speaker 3: in my attention and make them interested. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2: What about access in like entry and exit bouts. That's
Speaker 2: something that we worry about so much an agg country
Speaker 2: down south, but especially like in the big woods areas
Speaker 2: that you hunt. It's not like you can avoid the
Speaker 2: cover going in or out. Yeah, everything's cover when you
Speaker 2: come in and out. Everything's loud when you come in
Speaker 2: and out because you're walking through branches and leaves and
Speaker 2: swamp grass or whatever. So do you do you have
Speaker 2: some way that you try to have a safe entry
Speaker 2: and exit or do you just like rip the band
Speaker 2: aid off and blast your way into these places just
Speaker 2: knowing like, hey, it's gonna happen.
Speaker 3: Well, you know in some cases like I know you
Speaker 3: followed here and one of our fellow people that we
Speaker 3: paid a lot of attention to being Michigan guys. You
Speaker 3: know you got John, you Knowhart. Getting in there early,
Speaker 3: even if you jump something, you let it cool down.
Speaker 3: Getting in there early is paramount. And around here, like
Speaker 3: I hate jumping things, it is the worst. Access is
Speaker 3: a very important thing. But like you said, if I'm
Speaker 3: gonna sit here, the only good thing is when I
Speaker 3: get there, It's like, since it's so close to bed,
Speaker 3: there shouldn't be too much around there yet that is
Speaker 3: the bonus. And I don't hunt around fields very often,
Speaker 3: so I know I'm not bumping things there. So like, yes,
Speaker 3: I keep in mind. That's basically why I keep food
Speaker 3: in mine because I never hunt the food at all.
Speaker 3: I mean, I just honestly never really hunt food. Less
Speaker 3: it's close to a bedding, I just need to know
Speaker 3: where this is so I can avoid it where I
Speaker 3: get in that bed and then usually when I leave
Speaker 3: at night, I knew where they went. I got to
Speaker 3: get out of there without the nighte so I don't
Speaker 3: have to worry about busts in the field. I don't
Speaker 3: have to worry about any of that stuff because they
Speaker 3: should be kind of long gone by the time I leave,
Speaker 3: So that is kind of a bonus, you know. But
Speaker 3: it is hard to sneak in there in the morning
Speaker 3: without busting stuff. But you just hope that you're there first.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the man, every one of those like frosty leaf
Speaker 2: crackling steps, especially on like that still freezing cold day
Speaker 2: when everything seems to echo a mile. It just like
Speaker 2: you're a little part of your soul dies with every stuff.
Speaker 3: That one big large stick crack like near the base
Speaker 3: your stand or Yeah, the worst thing in the world
Speaker 3: is like when you like touch that first step and
Speaker 3: then that's when that deer blows and you're just like, great,
Speaker 3: they just waited. They watched me for a while and
Speaker 3: then they really got a good look and good sniff
Speaker 3: of me. That's just like them. Oh it's the worst
Speaker 3: way to start off, But yeah, I have had I mean,
Speaker 3: going back to that one dear that was telling you
Speaker 3: about when I shot it near those like the motorcycle area,
Speaker 3: I had a dough I bet she blew up me
Speaker 3: thirty times that morning at twenty yards and then you know,
Speaker 3: Opening day, it's just so disheartening. Twenty minutes later, shot him.
Speaker 3: You know you got it, see equity. You never know.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you can walk out there. It's just stupid.
Speaker 3: I'm out, I'm gone, but stuck it out shot at
Speaker 3: that point, the biggest bucket ever shot.
Speaker 2: It's incredible. Yeah, I just got to give it a try.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is there anything Is there any piece of your puzzle,
Speaker 2: any part of your big buck program for hunting during
Speaker 2: the run for like November and on that we haven't
Speaker 2: touched on that you find like really critical to how
Speaker 2: you have success that the someone was trying to understand
Speaker 2: the Jim Bouchard way to kill bucks during the rut
Speaker 2: that we haven't covered yet.
Speaker 3: The main thing that allows me to be in areas
Speaker 3: where bucks are going to be during the rut is
Speaker 3: just one all the scouting I do in the winter
Speaker 3: and spring, what did they do last year during the rut?
Speaker 3: That's where they're going to be. And that's why typically
Speaker 3: a lot of my spots like they're they're good year
Speaker 3: to year, you know, because it's just it's where they're
Speaker 3: going to be. So I know they're there because I
Speaker 3: found it months before. I didn't have to worry about
Speaker 3: bumping them or anything like that. It's just straight up
Speaker 3: preparation because I honestly I know you have a chance
Speaker 3: down there to scout fields with binos and spotting scopes
Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. I don't even have
Speaker 3: that as an option because I spent doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 3: So my stuff is basically done by Turkey season. Turkey
Speaker 3: season's done, I don't really need to go look. I
Speaker 3: might do a quick check, you like, just to verify,
Speaker 3: like where am I going to prioritize, especially if is
Speaker 3: there acorns? Did that tree have apples? You know? Does
Speaker 3: that guy look like he's hunting there anymore? I check
Speaker 3: those things. My decisions have been made by the time
Speaker 3: Turkey season is done. That's when I put my time in,
Speaker 3: just hours and hours and hours of walking around late
Speaker 3: you know, early spring scouting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so that kind of sets up. Let's imagine
Speaker 2: that you have a guy or girl who has hunted
Speaker 2: for a while and they've had kind of middle of
Speaker 2: the road success. They've killed some deer here and there,
Speaker 2: but they have never been the person who consistently fills
Speaker 2: their buck tag every year, but they really want to
Speaker 2: take that step up. And this person lives in northern
Speaker 2: Michigan or northern Wisconsin, or northern Minnesota, or the big
Speaker 2: Woods of Kentucky or Pennsylvania, somewhere where there's a lot
Speaker 2: of cover, not as many deer, so they relate to
Speaker 2: your story and they would love to have a sheet
Speaker 2: of paper with five steps. On this paper, it's like
Speaker 2: the blueprint for success in this kind of place. And
Speaker 2: you were gonna be the author of this paper for
Speaker 2: this person. And if I'll force you into step one
Speaker 2: is postseason scout extensively as you just describe, maybe that's
Speaker 2: rule that's step number one to this blueprint. And let
Speaker 2: me tighten this even further and just say this is
Speaker 2: gonna be like rut related stuff to have success during
Speaker 2: this time period when folks are listening, What would the
Speaker 2: next three to four rules or steps be on this
Speaker 2: blueprint that you would write down. It could be things
Speaker 2: we've already talked about. Of course, if you want to
Speaker 2: summarize some of those things, or if there's something new,
Speaker 2: you can add anything else you want to the list.
Speaker 2: But what's basically what we're gonna leave everyone today with
Speaker 2: this Bouchard blueprint. Walk me through the final steps on
Speaker 2: this blueprint. Scout extends.
Speaker 3: I can see my friends are making fun of that
Speaker 3: comment already. I see the next time. You know. The
Speaker 3: one thing that we haven't really talked about, because we've
Speaker 3: talked primary about like where you go. And I think
Speaker 3: one thing that you really have to focus on is that,
Speaker 3: besides the scouting, is that when it comes down it,
Speaker 3: you actually have to get it done. Like that's one
Speaker 3: thing we've like look past and like that's my the
Speaker 3: thing that keeps me up and the thing the reason
Speaker 3: I have a little ten yard shooting spot in here
Speaker 3: and all my stuff we're here. I am so afraid
Speaker 3: to screw up my one shot. Yeah, I'm horrified of it.
Speaker 3: Like it is what keeps me like constantly at shooting
Speaker 3: and constantly at scouting is like I have to be ready.
Speaker 3: And that's why it's such an unbelievable feeling when it
Speaker 3: does happen, is because like you got one shot these
Speaker 3: three hundred SOMEHODD days a year, you're waiting like you
Speaker 3: better not screw up up because not only if you
Speaker 3: do scroll like you might be shot for the rest
Speaker 3: of that year. But you know it hurts. I mean
Speaker 3: that you talk about tear your soul out. I mean
Speaker 3: it's horrible. And I am so motivated by that fear
Speaker 3: of screwing up. So if somebody wants to shoot good deer,
Speaker 3: I hope you're on top of your game to be
Speaker 3: able to do it during the moment of truth. Like
Speaker 3: you have to have that part because I don't care
Speaker 3: where you sit. I don't care if you go to
Speaker 3: the best spot in the planet. If you can't kill it,
Speaker 3: you're wasting your time anyway. It doesn't matter if you
Speaker 3: scout and all that stuff, Like are you ready when
Speaker 3: that everything comes down and your brain doesn't even work anymore?
Speaker 3: Will you be able to kill it? And part that
Speaker 3: helps me is like, yeah, I don't have to shoot
Speaker 3: fifty That definitely helps me. You know, that makes me
Speaker 3: more effective. But you know, like will I be ready?
Speaker 3: Will I not be scrolling on my phone? And when
Speaker 3: that deer comes out and does a little last minute move,
Speaker 3: did you get an arrow at them? That killed them?
Speaker 3: So I think one thing I always sell it because
Speaker 3: I'm an education and I see a lot of pictures
Speaker 3: on phones and kids shoot and all that kind of
Speaker 3: stuff is like get yourself ready to get the job
Speaker 3: done if it does happen. You know, that's step one.
Speaker 3: You have to have the ability to do so. And
Speaker 3: that's something we haven't really talked about, you know, we
Speaker 3: talk about scouting. So yeah, the scouting and then okay,
Speaker 3: do you are you efficient with the actual job of
Speaker 3: killing that animal? Obviously, like I would have it. Whenever
Speaker 3: you give me a list, I'd like I'd have to
Speaker 3: sit there on a whiteboard and like eat out my
Speaker 3: list and going no, that made sense, Nope, this should
Speaker 3: be four, Nope, this should be two. You know, obviously
Speaker 3: I would have to because if I'm really up to
Speaker 3: this challenge, I'd be like can I hang out with
Speaker 3: that person? Like can they come stand where? I go? Okay,
Speaker 3: this is a good spot, or like I have killed
Speaker 3: stuff here, like what do you see? Like would you
Speaker 3: ever sit here? Or hey, show me where you're sitting,
Speaker 3: you know, show me where you're sitting. Why did you
Speaker 3: choose this spot? You know, and I can I could
Speaker 3: go through the things like okay, this is why this
Speaker 3: would be a rough spot to get it done. You know,
Speaker 3: I would prefer to do that, you know, like a
Speaker 3: first hand maybe that's the teacher in me, but like that,
Speaker 3: this is why this isn't going to work effectively and
Speaker 3: be able to go this, this, this, and this. You know,
Speaker 3: like this is why this spot works for me. You know,
Speaker 3: like they will never see me there. I will never
Speaker 3: get picked off there. You know, they can't get behind me.
Speaker 3: This spot's going to be good. If I have a
Speaker 3: west wind, I am good for the year without anything
Speaker 3: being blown out of here. You know, that's why that's there.
Speaker 3: So I think going back to the ced equity things
Speaker 3: like how many little micro mistakes I've made? I would
Speaker 3: try to show them because that's what you're always trying
Speaker 3: to do as a mentors, Like how do we reduce
Speaker 3: the the mistakes that somebody makes? Which is perfect now,
Speaker 3: I mean there's so many ways to find those things
Speaker 3: out by listening to podcasts and reading people's books and
Speaker 3: looking at all these things. So I would like, if
Speaker 3: I've just given this challenge, which I'm totally going around
Speaker 3: your list, like I'm like not answering your question whatsoever.
Speaker 2: You know, it's as all good politicians do. You reframe it,
Speaker 2: You reframe it want to and it's great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I would really like to just like, Okay,
Speaker 3: let's see your spot first, let's look at one of mine,
Speaker 3: Like what is going to get you in a spot
Speaker 3: that's going to And the other thing, too, is before
Speaker 3: we get to like I want to shoot a big deer,
Speaker 3: Let's shoot deer. You know, I know you and Tony
Speaker 3: talk about this a bunch. I like shooting deer. I
Speaker 3: like everything with shooting deer. I like processing the deer.
Speaker 3: I like dragging the deer. I like my daughter coming
Speaker 3: with me, I like my friends coming with me. I
Speaker 3: don't need it to be I don't consider it a
Speaker 3: failure of a season, not shooting one hundred and twenty
Speaker 3: in steer. I mean that is like an amazing goal,
Speaker 3: and I'd love to be able to pull it off
Speaker 3: all the time. I don't, but I'm not sad. If
Speaker 3: I had a cool morning, it's an awesome rut. He's
Speaker 3: coming in on a dough cruising eleven o'clock. I mean
Speaker 3: it was like, that is the opportunity is what I'm seeking.
Speaker 3: So if I was going to have a person like
Speaker 3: let's shoot some deer and I take them those spots,
Speaker 3: like let's let's get a chance to shoot it because honestly,
Speaker 3: I would not take a rookie to my spots because
Speaker 3: they probably hate hunting, right, They just it wouldn't be fun,
Speaker 3: you know, it just would not be fun. Let's go
Speaker 3: to some of those borderline areas, maybe a little further
Speaker 3: out of that betting area where you know, a year
Speaker 3: and a half two and a half year old bucks
Speaker 3: are gonna be out there a little earlier, maybe some doughs,
Speaker 3: and get some deer under your belt before we start
Speaker 3: focusing on stuff that is back in that dimmer, because
Speaker 3: it really is in a lot of cases, you never
Speaker 3: want to be a camera person with me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can imagine a spot like that. I've
Speaker 2: sat in many of those growing up and still to
Speaker 2: this day. So let's end it with this, Jim. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Let's imagine that someone is listening to this in our
Speaker 2: home state of Michigan on the day comes out, which
Speaker 2: as I said, was November fourteenth, This is gun season Eve.
Speaker 2: What is your single most important message you want to
Speaker 2: give to someone on gun Season Eve if they are
Speaker 2: listening in that particular day, one tip or one reminder,
Speaker 2: one parting message? What do you want to tell folks?
Speaker 3: I think when it comes to rifle season, it's such
Speaker 3: like a romanticized thing for me based on my tradition.
Speaker 3: I know, you dig it. I've read your stuff, and
Speaker 3: camp is the thing for me when it comes to rifle.
Speaker 3: And what I think is like the coolest thing about rifles,
Speaker 3: Like I know, when that alarm clock goes off in
Speaker 3: the morning, there's hundreds of dudes, well hundreds of hunters
Speaker 3: that are so amped up, like they get their their
Speaker 3: stomach hurts, like and I just think it's a cool
Speaker 3: thing that everybody's on the same page. It's like, is
Speaker 3: this going to be my day? Is my number going
Speaker 3: to be pulled today? You know? And what I can't
Speaker 3: stress was like enjoy that feeling and like make sure
Speaker 3: that it's going on and on and on, like I
Speaker 3: know you're with your sons. Is like that. I looked
Speaker 3: up to my uncles and stuff going on opening day
Speaker 3: and their story is coming back. I mean they were
Speaker 3: gods to me. You know. Enjoy that part of it,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, yeah, killing a buck is fantastic.
Speaker 3: There's nothing like bringing a buck like our family buck
Speaker 3: pulled back in the day was the place to be.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's no greater honor than to be the
Speaker 3: guy that got to back his truck up and drop
Speaker 3: that deer off and hang it in front of your
Speaker 3: uncles and cousins, you know. And then on the other
Speaker 3: side of that is if your number isn't drawn, you know,
Speaker 3: the people that did get their chance, you'll celebrate with them.
Speaker 3: You know that that is just like the absolute most
Speaker 3: important thing. By this time, your work is done, you're
Speaker 3: sitting where you're sitting, You've been in camp. You're going
Speaker 3: to be in camp for a couple of days. Man,
Speaker 3: enjoy the absolute like majesty of the opening day in Michigan,
Speaker 3: because it is it's that's the jam. You know, deer
Speaker 3: aren't really doing deer things anymore. You're playing the lottery now,
Speaker 3: and enjoy it with everybody around you, because yeah, silly
Speaker 3: things happen when it comes to the rifles going off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, might as well have some fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not even like a hunting tip. It's just
Speaker 3: like that. That is why I that's why I go
Speaker 3: to camp. I just can't wait to see you know.
Speaker 3: So and so Sun got his first dear like uncle
Speaker 3: so and So got the biggest year of his life.
Speaker 3: He's seventy you know, I mean all these and then
Speaker 3: the collective stories. I mean, that's why we're there. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, that's why we're there. That's the good stuff.
Speaker 2: Jim, Well, I appreciate you taking time to do this.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you sharing your insights and experiences, and I
Speaker 2: hope we will be reading more of your stories in
Speaker 2: various hunting publications. I've enjoyed what I've read from you
Speaker 2: so far, looking forward to more in the future, and
Speaker 2: I'm sure you're gonna have some good stories coming off
Speaker 2: of the twenty twenty four seasons, since it's been a
Speaker 2: banner year.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it has been. Well. Thanks, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's an honor to be a part of this.
Speaker 2: Hey man, right back at you. I'll be bugging you
Speaker 2: in future weeks and years to come, continuing to try
Speaker 2: to pick your brain and fill some upper Michigan tags.
Speaker 3: One of these years week coming.
Speaker 2: All right, and that's a wrap. Hope you guys enjoyed this.
Speaker 2: Thank you for being here with me. Good luck out
Speaker 2: there in the woods. If you are kicking off a
Speaker 2: gun season here, maybe tomorrow in Michigan or somewhere else soon.
Speaker 2: Good luck out there, please, be safe, enjoy your time,
Speaker 2: spend time with your friends and family. Remember camaraderie, community,
Speaker 2: all of that stuff is what this is all about.
Speaker 2: Get out there with your kids, your family members, your friends,
Speaker 2: and soak it all up. So until then, until next time,
Speaker 2: stay wired to hunt.
Speaker 7: It's that time of the year again. I'm back, Marcus Kenyan.
Speaker 7: How are you your son of a gadwall? You look terrible.
Speaker 7: I'm just kidding, a rema.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. I'm late.
Speaker 7: I crashed my recumbent bicycle into the side of a
Speaker 7: quiz nose and I know what you're thinking. I am
Speaker 7: as sober as a newborn blue crab. I swear to
Speaker 7: you this is just kombucha.
Speaker 4: I'm watching the gut health. You gotta do it as
Speaker 4: you get older.
Speaker 7: And also, I'm wearing this ankle bracelet that makes a
Speaker 7: beet beep sound if I have a drop of the
Speaker 7: stuff also alerts the authorities, who in turn alert my
Speaker 7: parole officer. So there'll be none of that in the
Speaker 7: studio today, I promise you. Let's get go. Oh you're
Speaker 7: queueing it up already.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 7: I thought we'd learned a lesson this year, but I
Speaker 7: guess not.
Speaker 4: Here we go.
Speaker 6: I love those beagy big big white tails. Those seek
Speaker 6: run be agye big big wide tails. I love those
Speaker 6: beachy big yeah eight chats eat eat tales. I love
Speaker 6: those beachy big wide tails.
Speaker 5: Big white tails, big white tails, big white tales are great.
Speaker 4: Hold what fun it is to sit in the freezing
Speaker 4: cold tree all day?
Speaker 5: Big white tails, big white tails, big white tails are great?
Speaker 3: Hold?
Speaker 4: What fun it is just sit in the freezing cold
Speaker 4: tree all day? Dashing through the woods for the morning light,
Speaker 4: turns grave across the fields and draws, creep in all
Speaker 4: the way, climb into the tree. Big bulks are on
Speaker 4: the wave? What fun is to sit and wait for
Speaker 4: my gosh don deer all day? Oh big, I'm sorry?
Speaker 5: What is this?
Speaker 4: Pisocado strings? Who do you think? I am ya? Get
Speaker 4: this out here. I don't want to hear it.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 7: Big white tails, big white tails, big white tails are great.
Speaker 7: Hold fun it is to sit in the freezing cold
Speaker 7: tree all day? I hope sand dreams are high the rut.
Speaker 7: He's finally here, Mark said, it's the most wonderful time
Speaker 7: to kill o whitetail deer bingch points and pettings where
Speaker 7: you'll find me as want to bet in a tree,
Speaker 7: grunt tubes, my bowel inspectrum. Camo's really campy.
Speaker 4: Be he haught you ago.
Speaker 7: I thought that this was fun, but now I'm frozen
Speaker 7: to my seat, and the good times they are gone.
Speaker 3: I've ate up all my.
Speaker 7: Snacks, my hands and toes unnumb and we're gonna climb
Speaker 7: down from my stand.
Speaker 4: That son of a but decided to come.
Speaker 6: I love those beagy big white tapes, those sky bagy
Speaker 6: big big white tastes.
Speaker 7: I love those beg big dup y'all eight shot gie etails.
Speaker 4: I love those big white tails all day.
Speaker 7: I don't know why this is happening. I swear to
Speaker 7: God of what seems to be the problem here, Oh this.
Speaker 7: I don't know why this is happening. It must be
Speaker 7: a malfunction, you know. Sometimes it happens when the batteries
Speaker 7: running low.
Speaker 4: You don't know. You don't need to smell that. That's
Speaker 4: just kombucha. I okay, yes, you've got me. It's ever
Speaker 4: clear and pacific cooler, Caprice Son.
Speaker 7: I am so so sorry. I don't know why my
Speaker 7: life has brought me here. Mark Marcus, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 7: Enjoy the rut or whatever, good luck.
Speaker 3: Boys.
Speaker 4: Good to see you, Hayden. It's been a while. Hey, sorry,
Speaker 4: I'm late.
Speaker 7: I crashed my pontiac cast i canto a light pole
Speaker 7: and had to walk the rest of the way. But
Speaker 7: I'm here now, that's what matters. Give me a glass
Speaker 7: of scotch, please, Hayden. Just two rocks in there.
Speaker 4: I don't like ice. We're starting already, this is happening. Okay,
Speaker 4: just give me the give me the glass, thank you.
Speaker 3: Okay, here we go.
Speaker 4: It's the most wonderful time to kill to you.
Speaker 7: With the run now just starting and dashing and dotting
Speaker 7: and veins cutting clean, It's the most wonderful time to
Speaker 7: kill deer.
Speaker 4: There's far too much, isinus glass.
Speaker 7: It's the half happy seedson of all. There's gotta be
Speaker 7: at least twelve cues with grunting and bleeding and cold
Speaker 7: fronts and sleeting, the last.
Speaker 4: Weeks of fun.
Speaker 7: It's the half happy Seedsson of all. There'll be pictures
Speaker 7: for posting and bragging and boasting and truck beds with
Speaker 7: big bucks in toe. There'll be narrow misstories and tales
Speaker 7: of your glories of booner bucks missed with our bulls.
Speaker 7: It's the most wonderful time to kill deer, not just
Speaker 7: one baby two. There'll be no tose of blowing and
Speaker 7: looming knocks glowing and blood trails so clean.
Speaker 4: It's the most.
Speaker 1: Wonderful time to kill deer.
Speaker 3: Excuse me?
Speaker 4: Can I have a napkin?
Speaker 5: Please?
Speaker 4: I just spilled some scotch on my loafers. I can't
Speaker 4: have dirty loafers in the studio.
Speaker 7: Thank you Tailgate beers for drinking, and big Bucks is
Speaker 7: slinking and chasing and sent jacking does They will be
Speaker 7: fighting and scraping and no more escaping and.
Speaker 4: Arrowshot true hitting, Oh.
Speaker 3: Key change.
Speaker 4: But no one told me that it's the most wonderful
Speaker 4: time to kill deer. I was very unprepared for this.
Speaker 7: There will be much morning sitting in cold fronts, are
Speaker 7: hitting the dawn, Kristen clean.
Speaker 4: It's the most wonderful.
Speaker 7: Time, Oh, the most wonderful time, Yes, the most wonderful time.
Speaker 4: To kilty. There's too much ice in the glass. Two
Speaker 4: rocks