1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today is Pulitzer 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Prize winning journalist Isabel Wilkerson. She's the author of Cast, 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: The Origins of Our Discontent. It's a profound book and 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: an instant bestseller. Wilkerson digs deep into American history, as 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: well as the history of Nazi Germany and the cast 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: system of India to understand the ways systemic inequality is 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: enforced in the United States. Throughout the book, Wilkerson explicitly 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: does not use the word racism. You know, one of 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: the reasons I use the word cast and this invisible, unrecognized, 11 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: unspoken hierarchy and infrastructure is that it is so profoundly 12 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: embedded into you know, our history, our psyches, the way 13 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: that things work, that it doesn't have to be a 14 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: single institution or actor. It's an autonomic response to changes 15 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: or threats to the hierarchy as we've known it. I 16 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time thinking about how the word 17 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: cast is used in our language, with or without the E. 18 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: And so if you think about cast in a play 19 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: in which everyone has there's a script and everyone has 20 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: a place on the stage stage left, stage right, foreground background, 21 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: and everyone knows their lines, and if you're really invested 22 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: in it, you know everyone's lines because you know the 23 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: entire script. And so one when you have a situation 24 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: in which we have all inherited this script that's been 25 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: passed down through the generations, it doesn't take a single person. 26 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: It's not about a single person or entity. It's about 27 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: the recognition that this is the way things have been, 28 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: and those who are deeply invested in maintaining it will 29 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: do whatever it takes to keep it going. So it 30 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: could be any number of different entities, subsets, individuals anywhere 31 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: along the hierarchy who have a vested interest in maintaining it. 32 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: But would you say that in decades prior, would you 33 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: say that organizations that clearly espoused public policy and argue 34 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: for public policy that had a racially subjugating tinge to it, 35 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: an ultimate result was a cast maintenance. Oh? Absolutely. But 36 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is, were those organizations more fringe years ago, 37 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: like the John Bird's Society, things that were ultra conservative, 38 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: ultra reactionary. We're much more marginalized fifty years ago, and 39 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: now it's mainstream now you have a whole news organization 40 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: where Tucker Carlson is saying the things he's saying. You know, 41 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: he's got advertisers, he's got a nightly show. Has it 42 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: become more mainstream that maintenance people who espouse a maintenance 43 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: of the cast system that you write of. Well, the 44 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: reason that I mentioned of the plateau is that as 45 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: long as you're in a plateau, there's not necessarily a 46 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: need for anyone to get activated. While the play is 47 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: going on and everything is going you know, it's had 48 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: a very long run, and everybody knows where they're supposed 49 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,279 Speaker 1: to be, then there's no need for anyone to necessarily 50 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: to act to take action. It's only when there is 51 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: a threat, a perceived threat to what all has happened before, 52 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: to the infrastructure as we've known it, that is when 53 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: more and more people can be drawn into responding to 54 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: whatever is perceived as a threat. And that is how 55 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: I would look at it from a cast perspective. So 56 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: when the African American community, my question for a long 57 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: time has always been, you know what, ultimately as a 58 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: group separate from Hispanics, latinos Asians, the black community, the 59 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: African American community what do you think African American people 60 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: wanted fifty two years ago and how that's changed? Is 61 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: integration itself? Acquaint idea? Have black Americans? Have African Americans 62 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: arrived at a place and have they been there for 63 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: a while where they're like, we don't need to be 64 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: friends with you, we don't need to live with you 65 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: and hang out with you, as long as you just 66 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: let us have what we need and get off our 67 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: back and give us equal opportunity. Is the idea of 68 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: a pure racially blind integration Is that dead in this country? 69 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: I think that we don't even have necessarily a single 70 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: African American community. There are communities, There are people who 71 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: have been in this country for longer than most Americans 72 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: who might meet, meaning you know, slavery went on for 73 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: two hundred and forty six years, more than a hundred 74 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: years before there was the United States of America. So 75 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: that means that that's one group of people who are 76 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: descended from enslavement in a huge percentage, you know, probably 77 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: the majority of people who would be identified as black 78 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: in this country. Then we have people who have who 79 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: have immigrated here from a Caribbean and have been here 80 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: for many many decades as well, and now we have 81 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: a new introduction of people who are immigrating very large 82 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: numbers of people integrating from Sub Saharan Africa, so there's 83 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: not even just one community. There's also an issue of 84 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: class within the group known as African Americans. So there 85 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: are many, many different perspectives that are paid within forty 86 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: million people who would be identified as black or African 87 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: American in this country. So it's not one perspective, I 88 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: would say in that case, although of course everyone would 89 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: agree that people in our current day wish to be 90 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: treated as anyone else would in this country, wish to 91 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: not be over surveiled and over policed, would wish to 92 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: be able to go about their lives every day the 93 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: way other people do, without having someone intrude into their 94 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: day and call the police on them for you know, 95 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: sitting at a Starbucks waiting for a friend, trying to 96 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: get into one's own condo building. Those are the kind 97 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: of things that have happened to people who are of 98 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: African descent in this country in in just the last 99 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: couple of years. I mean just many, many, many, many 100 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: many examples of this going on. So I mean, I 101 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: think it's a have to say that all people of 102 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: African descent would love to just be able to go 103 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: about their lives as everyone else, as Americans, to be 104 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: able to pursue their dreams as anyone else would, or 105 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: just to be able to get through the day. I 106 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: would say that going back to the nineteen you know, 107 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: to the era of the Civil rights movement, which actually, 108 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: it could be argued, began with the arrival of the 109 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: first slave ship, meaning that there has always been resistance 110 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,119 Speaker 1: to enslavement, always been resistance to being kept in Chaine, 111 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: and there's always been some kind of resistance, and what 112 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: we think of as a civil rights movement, it's just 113 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: part of the continuum of resistance that goes back for many, 114 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: many generations. You know, when you think about during slavery, 115 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: there were people the underground railroad of people trying to escape. 116 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: So I also think looking at the long arc of 117 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: history where we talk about progress and backlash and plateau, 118 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: those are the things that have continued for as long 119 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: as there's been a country. But the Civil Rights movement, 120 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: as you were speaking about what do people want, I 121 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: mean people wanted, well, what was life like for them 122 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: at that time? During the Civil rights era, nineteen fifties 123 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: and sixties, A good portion the majority of African Americans, 124 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: many of them were in the South, were not permitted 125 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: to vote, not permitted to be able to just use 126 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: public facilities, were segregated in every way that you can imagine. 127 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: There were actually separate bibles in court to swear to 128 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: tell the truth on. There is a Black Bible and 129 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: altogether separate white Bible to swear to tell the truth on. 130 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: In court. It was against the law for a black 131 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: person and a white person to merely play checkers together 132 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: in Birmingham, for example. So the world that people lived in, 133 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,559 Speaker 1: and what I call the cast system of the American South, 134 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: was one of such extreme inequality and injustice and this 135 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: artificial graded ranking of human value, that the goal would 136 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: have been to be able to be seen and accepted 137 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: and have all the rights and privileges of any other 138 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: citizen of the United States, which they had earned through 139 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: generations and generations of course of working for free to 140 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: build this country for two and forty six years. So 141 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: that is what they were seeking ultimately, and they were 142 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: seeking human rights as well as civil rights, to be 143 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: seen and recognized as the humans that they had always 144 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: been and the citizens that they had always been. I 145 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: want to just get to another idea, and these are 146 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: all my opinions. In the last several years, there are 147 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: three primary groups that have organized politically to varying degrees 148 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: of success and using various methodologies to try to advance 149 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: their cause of their human rights. The l g B 150 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: t Q community, women and African Americans and people of color. Now, 151 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: one would argue that although none of them have come 152 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: far enough, the gay community made great strides with marriage equality, 153 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of things that really really 154 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: you know, they had a nice, tight campaign and they 155 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: pushed and they won, and they prevaire women. I think 156 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: things have gotten better for women in this country, not enough. 157 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the fact that we don't have 158 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: an equal rights in them and in this cord yous 159 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: appalling to me. Do you think that the cause of 160 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: African Americans in terms of their human rights has been 161 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: in third place in terms of those accomplishments gaining what 162 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: they wanted to and why? Well, I can only second 163 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: only go back to the work that I've done, which 164 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: is to say that we have inherited a cast system, 165 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: which is, you know, the arbitrary artificial ranking of human value. 166 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: And it was founded on the essential belief that the 167 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: colonists established themselves on top. They imported, they brought in 168 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: people from Africa to form the bottom wrong of that hierarchy. 169 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: So we're going back to the founding of our country. 170 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,719 Speaker 1: Before there was the United States, there was this hierarchy 171 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: and it established this bipolar infrastructure. And X of course, 172 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: in the founding of the country, the indigenous people were 173 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: their numbers were decimated, and they were driven from their lands. 174 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: So this is this is our inheritance as Americans, and 175 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: this is so built into the infrastructure of our country 176 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: that this is an enduring question that has yet to 177 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: be fully resolved. Even though we had in a civil 178 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: rights movement and civil rights legislation of nineteen sixty four, 179 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: sixty five, and sixty eight. What we are seeing now 180 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: is an indication that you can have the laws in 181 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: place which are absolutely necessary and a show of progress. 182 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: Um yet you can still have what we have seen 183 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 1: in just the last year when it comes to video 184 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: after video of you know, dehumanizing effects of people who 185 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: are still enforcing these assumptions and and this this ranking 186 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: of human value. We can we have seen people killed 187 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: before our very eyes, inside of all that has gone before. 188 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: For you who have achieved, I mean, it doesn't get 189 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: any better for someone in your field than what you've accomplished. 190 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: You have a poet, surprise. You live in a pretty 191 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: rarefied world, in a pretty elite world. You'll be You're 192 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: an enormous successful, enormously well respected writer. You've been given 193 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: one of the highest honors in your field. Do you 194 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: still encounter microaggressions from people in the world you live in? Oh? Absolutely. 195 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: The one that I feel most comfortable talking about is 196 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: where I was actually accused of impersonating myself. For people 197 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: who haven't heard that, how did this guy pulled? How 198 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: did he do this? Yeah? So I had made appointments 199 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: with several people for this one story that was a 200 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: fairly harmless, you know, not controversial story at all, and 201 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: everybody that I called was really excited about it, about participating. 202 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: And he was one of the people that I called. 203 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: And I've done all these interviews during the course of 204 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: the day and he was the last interview of the 205 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: day and when I got there, he was not there. 206 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: I got into his h It's a retail establishment, a 207 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: small boutique and there was no one there in the 208 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: boutique at the time. Was a quiet hour of the day. 209 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: And the sales clerk said, you know, he's not here. 210 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: This is the man nager of the boutique. And I 211 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: waited for him, and then this, you know, the door 212 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: opening in. He's clearly recognized that he's late for something. 213 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: He's taking off his code, he's trying to get situated. 214 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: The clerk tells me to go over to him, because 215 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: that's the guy that I'm supposed to be interviewing. And uh. 216 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: I go up to him and I introduced myself and 217 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: he said, oh, I can't talk with you now, I 218 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: cannot talk with you. I'm getting ready for a very 219 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: very important meeting, very very important interview. I don't have 220 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: the time to talk with you. And I said, I'm 221 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: I'm Isabel Wilkerson. Um, I think I'm the appointment that 222 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: you're here, because we have this interview set up for 223 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: four thirty. Uh. And he said, well, how do I 224 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: know that? How do I know that? I mean, I 225 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: was stunned by that, because, I mean, here we were, 226 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: he was late, there was no one else there, and 227 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: he was saying to me, how do I know that 228 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: you're who you say you are? And I said, I 229 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: made this appointment with you. It's well past the time 230 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: I made this appointment with you. And he said, well, 231 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: let me you know you have a business card. And 232 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: it's so happened. It's one of those things where there's 233 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: when you're in a particular you know, uh past, I 234 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: might say, there's no room for error, and it just 235 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: so happened. I didn't have any business cards. I've been 236 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: out talking to people all day. I said, I don't 237 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: have a business card with me. I but we have 238 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: this appointment. I have my notebook. I was here waiting 239 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: for you. There's no one else here. We should be 240 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: having his interview. And he said, well, I'll need to 241 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 1: see some I D. So I said to him, I said, 242 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have to show you I D. We're already 243 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: well into the time that we should be interviewing. But 244 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: here's my idea. I showed it to him, and he said, 245 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: showed him the driver's life. And he said, you don't 246 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: have anything with the New York Times on it. And 247 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: I said, we are well into the time we should 248 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: be doing the interview. I mean like we're just wasting time. 249 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: We could have been done with the interview by now. 250 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: And he said, I'm going to have to ask you 251 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: to leave because she'll be here any minute. She'll be here, Yes, 252 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: she'll be here any minute. Here she is. Let me 253 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: Let me leave and read what I thought of that? Wait? 254 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: Wait here, I am. It's me and my boss is 255 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: on the phone. They want you to call at the times. 256 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: But what's interesting to me? Among a myriad of things? 257 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: Were there ever any consequences for him? Was he an 258 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: employee of a company. Did anybody contact his employer and 259 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: say nothing ever happened to him? Now this charade? Now, Now, 260 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: I wrote the piece, I finished the piece, and I 261 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: would have liked to have included him, and he very 262 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: much wanted to be in it, obviously, But I wrote 263 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: the piece and got it done, and you know, and 264 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: that was it. I mean, he I I've sent him 265 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: a copy of the article with the business card he'd 266 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: asked for. Author Isabel Wilkerson. Another person who was challenging 267 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: the narratives of our nation's history is Brian Stephenson, the 268 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: founder of the Equal Justice Initiative. From the Here's the 269 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: Thing Archives, Stevenson talked about the way civil rights history 270 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: gets condensed. All we want to do when we talk 271 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: about the nineties, forties and fifties and exties is celebrate 272 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, to celebrate the progress that we made, 273 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: and freeze it. Everybody gets to celebrate. There's no qualifying 274 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: questions that you have to add answer before you get 275 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: to participate. And we've reduced it almost to this kind 276 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: of three day event where Rosa Parks gives up her 277 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: seat on the first day. Dr King leads the march 278 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: on Washington on the second day, and then we pass 279 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: all these laws on the third day. And it provokes 280 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: me because we're ignoring the decades of damage that we 281 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: did to everybody by humiliating people of color every day 282 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: of their lives. You can find the rest of my 283 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: conversation with Brian Stevenson that here's the thing dot Org. 284 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: We talk about the need for a curriculum for all 285 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: Americans to understand the history of the cast system. After 286 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: the break, I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's the thing. 287 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: We're speaking today with author Isabel Wilkerson about her best 288 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: selling book Cast The Origins of Our Discontent. It feels 289 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: like racial inequality in our country is by design. Well, 290 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: it was designed as a hierarchy that we don't often 291 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: recognize because we can't see it. And that's why it's 292 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: in some ways so powerful. We've accepted it for so 293 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: long that we don't we don't see it because it 294 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: is just the way things are. You know, I described that, 295 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, the country is like an old house, and 296 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: that old house, you know you don't want to go 297 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: into the basement to see, but the reins have wrought 298 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: after a rain. But if you don't go in and 299 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: look at it, then you're not You're not going to 300 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: avoid the consequences just because you don't know what they are. 301 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: You don't avoid having to deal with whatever is down 302 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: there just because you have not to have look. It 303 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: could be that if there's a human impulse to create hierarchy, 304 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: and you know, again getting back to that play that 305 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: I'm talking about, that script that has been passed down 306 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: through the generations, it doesn't take a single individual to 307 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: make pro ones for a society because if everyone has 308 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: received the script, then they're acting upon that script. I 309 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: am saying that each one of us has received the script, 310 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,959 Speaker 1: and we we may act upon it in our own ways, 311 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: but the script is still there. And I think that 312 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: this is a matter of, you know, of adjusting and 313 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: changing and dealing with the programming that we have been heard. 314 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: It's like we've all been programmed to see things in 315 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: a certain way, to treat people in a certain way, 316 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: to elevate those who are in who are in the 317 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: dominant group, and to sublimate those who are in the 318 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: subordinated group. And it's so it's so much a part 319 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: of the social order of things, and it's been in 320 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: place for so long that we may not even be 321 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: able to see how it's acting upon ourselves. We may 322 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: not be able to say I was acting upon our 323 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: society until things reach that breaking point as they have 324 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: in more recent times, you know, in our current era. 325 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: I want to get to one last thing while I 326 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: have you, because I can't believe I've forgotten this. That is, 327 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: are you a proponent of reparations? Yes, I think that 328 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: The Warmth of the Sons your other book, Yeah, the 329 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: first book describes what African Americans endured, not doing slavery, 330 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: not doing slavery, but in the lifespan of people, actually 331 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: the oldest Americans and our current era, what they endured, 332 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, the idea of redlining and restrictive covenants. That 333 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: meant that African Americans were excluded from the American dream 334 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: ununtil the nineteen sixties, excluded from the ability to just 335 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: kind fortgage like any other like white Americans were able to. 336 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: That means that white Americans whose parents bought homes or 337 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: grandparents and great grandparents bought homes before the nineteen sixties 338 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: were you know, unintended or may not be aware of it, 339 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: but we're beneficiaries of the discrimination that occurred against African Americans, 340 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: the exclusion of African Americans because they African Americans were 341 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: not permitted to participate in this wealth building, you know, 342 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: part of the American dream. And so there is a way, 343 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: without even having to go back to slavery, to say 344 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: that African Americans have been harmed economically and that current 345 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: day Americans, you know, my my own parents, for example, 346 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: who were not able to to get a mortgage in 347 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: the regular way that other people were because they fell 348 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: under that category of people who were excluded. They were 349 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: African Americans who were excluded by the virtue of their race. 350 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: And so I think that the record is very clear 351 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: that this is a group that has has endured completely 352 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: different experience as they went about trying to build lives 353 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: for themselves, excluded from the American dream. And so therefore, 354 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: of course, as other groups have have experienced abuses and 355 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: and atrocities and have been harmed for that, and that 356 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: is what countries do, reparations having to do with repairing harm. 357 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: So I'm in favor of clearly that is for the groups, 358 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: but I would also add that I believe what's most 359 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: important is education to go along with that, so that 360 00:19:54,800 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: all Americans can know why it is appropriate. No, we 361 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: need to have instruction in this country. Human rights is 362 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: something that should be taught in the core curriculum. You 363 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: should be have. Kids should come into school and they 364 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: should learn all about human rights with it two women 365 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: related to sexuality, related to race. We should have a 366 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: core course that kids are talking from a very young 367 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: age about why it's just the right thing to do 368 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: and why it's in your interest to allow people their 369 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: their rights. The only thing I would finish with is 370 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: beyond where the money would come from and how much 371 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: money would be in a reparations program, who do you 372 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: think is the best arbiters and who would be the 373 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: best managers of that system, do you think, see I 374 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: appreciate you asking me that question, but I'm not equipped 375 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: to answer that question. Who's a good person you think 376 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: they can speak about, who has a view about reparation 377 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: that you admire? Well, there are many people who do 378 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: who are researching this. One of them is a professor 379 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: of economics at Duke University named William Darety. He's one 380 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: of the people who's been working on this for a 381 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: very long time. Obviously, Ton Halsey Coates is you know, 382 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: wrote the piece the Case Reparations, which he very kindly 383 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: referred to the warmth of other sons as being an 384 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: inspiration for that. So there are many, many, many people 385 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: working on this, and I think that they're the ones 386 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: that I would defer to on this topic. I would 387 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: only say, and I really want to emphasize that in 388 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: other countries. I'm thinking about Germany, where I spent a 389 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: lot of time trying to understand how they deal with 390 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: their history. You know, in the middle of Berlin is 391 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: this massive memorial to the Jews who were killed in 392 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: the Holocaust, and it should be there. It is massive, 393 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: and of course is anyone to give deep thought reflect 394 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: upon what was lost uh in that. But it takes 395 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 1: up a massive amount of that city center. And in 396 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: spite of how large it is, it's notable that there's 397 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: no sign there's no signage, there's no exhibit explanation as 398 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: to why it's there or what happened. And the reason 399 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: is because everyone knows what is there. It happened to have 400 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: have been cre aided by a Jewish American architect, and 401 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: it's there as a memorial, and it makes a statement 402 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: by its existence by saying everyone there recognizes the horror 403 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: that happened. Everyone recognizes the history, as they should because 404 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: everyone receives an education about how and why this is 405 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: necessary to honor and how and why the country got 406 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: to where it was in World War Two, And we 407 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: do not have that. We're not on the same page 408 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: here in our country about basic facts as to the 409 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: causes of the Civil War and what happened after reconstruction, 410 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: and what was Jim Crow and how did that? How 411 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: did that work? How did we end up with the 412 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: cast system when I'm describing as a cast system of 413 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: this artificial grade and ranking of human value. We're not 414 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: on the same page about what happened in our country. 415 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: And that is what I'm saying. Why it's so important 416 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: as we try to understand how we got to where 417 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: we are now, is to understand what happened. You know, 418 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: you can't fix what you can't see, and you can't 419 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: repair what you don't know. And and that's why I 420 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: think it's important for us to get on the same 421 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: page about what happened. You can't make progress unless you 422 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: know what's happened to get us where we are. I 423 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: think there's hope. I think there's hope. I actually do 424 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: think there's hope. I've written these books so that people 425 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: can have an idea of where and how we got 426 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: to where we are. But that first book, when it 427 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: came out, moren't other sons. People would come up to 428 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: me of all different backgrounds and would say to me 429 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: over and over and over again, I had no idea. 430 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: I had no idea that this happened in our country. 431 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: I had no idea. And so the goal of this 432 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: is to get us on the same page about what 433 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: happened in this country. Things don't make sense until you 434 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: know how we got here. It's as if our country 435 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: like we're in an audience that walked into a theater 436 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: in the middle of a movie and we didn't catch 437 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: the first half. So we see one car chasing another car, 438 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: and a man chasing and and someone else's stopping the 439 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: man is chasing, and we don't understand why this one 440 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: man is chasing the other man. We don't understand what's happened. 441 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: And we watched the rest of the movie and we 442 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: still missed out on what was the essential questions about 443 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: how and why this happened. And so that's what we're like. 444 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: And if you've walked into the middle of a movie 445 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: and you didn't catch the first half, in some ways 446 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 1: nothing else really truly makes sense. And this is an 447 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: effort to try to get us on the same page 448 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: so that things will make sense, so that we will 449 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: have a better understanding of why we're where we are 450 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: and how we got to where we are, so that 451 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: we can have a better sense of what to do 452 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: going forward. That's the whole goal here. Well, let me 453 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: just say once again, thank you so much for taking 454 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: the time to do with this. Thank you so much. 455 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: That's best selling author Isabel Wilkerson. I wanted to follow 456 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: up on this question of reparations and as Isabel Wilkerson 457 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: recommended talking to William Daretti. He happens to be my 458 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: next guest. He teach is public Policy, African American Studies, 459 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: and Economics at Duke University. He and his wife Kirsten 460 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: Mullen are the authors of From Here to Equality, Reparations 461 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: for Black Americans in the twenty one century. It's a 462 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: detailed case for reparations, particularly as a way to close 463 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: the generational wealth gap between white and Black Americans. Dareity says, 464 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: the reparations invoice the federal government owes descendants of enslaved 465 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: people is between ten and twelve trillion dollars. It's a 466 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: daunting price tag. However, Darety says, if the federal government 467 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: commits to the plan, it can find the money. Well, 468 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: first of all, I don't think the increasing the deficit 469 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: necessarily means you increase the debt, uh, And it's it's 470 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: really a rise in the death that creates a financial 471 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: burden that's carried over time. But you can finance projects 472 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: without increasing taxes or increasing tax revenu new or making 473 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: a commitment to obtain an additional debt. In the process 474 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: of engaging in the expenditure. But let's say, even just 475 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: as a hypothetical, that they gave a trillion dollars over 476 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: ten years or twenty years, you've got a trillion dollars 477 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: a hundred billion dollars a year that was distributed for whatever, 478 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: for as you said, institutions, scholarships, direct cash payments to 479 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: people who I mean, this is going to be a 480 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: process to identify who really is entitled to this money 481 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: by your own metric. And even if you do that, 482 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: you don't think we need to raise taxes in order 483 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: to distribute a trillion dollars over ten years, not necessarily. 484 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the limit to additional federal spending is the 485 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: inflation risk, and so any new expenditure program would have 486 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: to be designed in such a way that it minimized 487 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: the risk of high rates of inflation, UH, including this one. 488 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: But we propose some ways in Chapter thirteen that the 489 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: program could be administered UH in such a way that 490 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: you contain the prospects of high inflation, including what you 491 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: just mentioned, which is the idea of distributing the payments 492 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: over a period of years rather than making the payments 493 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: take place all at once. But we're also concerned about 494 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: creating a new wealth position for Black Americans that's comparable 495 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: to the wealth position that's held by white Americans. Or 496 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: the average white household has eight hundred thousand dollars more 497 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: in net worth than the average black household, and we 498 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: argue in the book that that's a consequence of the 499 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: cumulative intergenerational effects of policies that have promoted white wealth 500 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: accumulation at the expense of black wealth accumulation. And so, 501 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, we could distribute that that set of funds 502 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: over the course of a decade. We could also distribute 503 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: the funds in such a way that we create trust 504 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: to counts or endowments where the full amounts are not 505 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: spent overnight or instantly by the individual recipients. So there 506 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 1: are ways to contain the inflation risk. Now the question becomes, 507 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: you know as well as I do, that the knee 508 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: jerk response you always get from people is almost kind 509 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: of a statute of limitations. Bail out. They kind of 510 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: sit there and they go, hey, man, I didn't known 511 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: any slaves, and yet you and I I mean, you 512 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: maintain I think, and I'll let you speak to this 513 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: this idea that the whole country there is the nation 514 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: itself is where it is today, and as the directors 515 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: of the bears responsibility as a country to pay this 516 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: amount of money. Correct, Yes, that's precisely right. Our position 517 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: is that the United States government is the culpopal party 518 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: because it maintained the legal and authority framework that permitted 519 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: these atrocities take place, and in many instances actually supported 520 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: the execution of these these are cities. And so yes, 521 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: it is the United States government that bears the responsibility 522 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: on behalf of the nation as a whole for meeting 523 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: the reparations bill. Uh. This comes into full focus when 524 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: we start thinking about the origins of the racial wealth 525 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: disparity that exists in the United States today, and and 526 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: that kind of disparity actually begins UH in the aftermath 527 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: of the Civil War when they formally enslaved persons were 528 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: promised forty acre land grants in the form of restitution, 529 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: and that promise was not met when at the same time, 530 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,959 Speaker 1: the United States government, through the Homestead Acts, was providing 531 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: one point five million white families with access to a 532 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: hundred sixty acre land grants in the western part of 533 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: the United States and land that was appropriated from the 534 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: native population. This was a settler colonialist projects straight up. 535 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: But the effects of that were to create a situation 536 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: in which Black Americans start with no steak, no grub 537 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: steak in American society. They have to build wealth entirely 538 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: independently after being subjected to many, many years of bondage, 539 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: and white Americans get what is essentially a governmental handout 540 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: in the form of land that provides them with a 541 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: foundation for intergenerational wealth from the Homestead Act. Now, in 542 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: chapter thirteen a program of Black Reparations, you enumerate a 543 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: handful of different methods by which where the money would 544 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: be accessed. You talk about the wealth of the country 545 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: and the percentage of the population on the most simple terms, 546 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: that's African American. If it's thirteen percent, so they're entitled 547 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: to of that. Uh, you know, wealth of the country. 548 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: Which metric that you reference in the book? Are you 549 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: the most in favorable what do you think is the 550 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: calculation and what do you think is the best way 551 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: to get the money out of the Congress. So the 552 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: thing that we settle on as the metric for dictating 553 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: the actual amount of the reparations payment is elimination of 554 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: the racial wealth differential in the United States by increasing 555 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: the black asset position until there is no longer any 556 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: significant difference between average black and white household wealth. Uh, 557 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: And that would require an expenditure we estimate in the 558 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: vicinity of ten to twelve trillion dollars, So that would 559 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: be the basic amount that would be required to actually 560 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: accomplish the goals of a reparations project. Right now, the 561 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: African American population in the United States is what we 562 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: should say about forty million. I would say that the 563 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: African American population that is descended from persons who are 564 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: enslaved in the United States is about forty million people. 565 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: So do you have much knowledge as to how much 566 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: money the German government had to transfer even to the 567 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: state of Israel, because you mentioned not only just direct 568 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: payments to people, but to institutions as well. What what 569 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: what was the bill that was handled by the German government? 570 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: Do you know? As far as I understand, the German 571 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: government as well as interestingly enough, the United States government, 572 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: which is not a culpable party in that situation, are 573 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: still making payments and they are running into the vicinity 574 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: of billions and billions of US dollars. I think at 575 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: the outset When the German government first started this process, 576 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: it was running into the low billions in the nineteen forties, 577 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: the late nineteen forties. So the US government is still 578 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: paying into a program. The U s government is paying 579 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: into a program to provide restitution for US citizens who 580 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: were victims of the Holocaust and their descendants. How long 581 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: has that been going on. I think that was enacted 582 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: within the past ten years. And how much money is 583 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: that program spending US dollars. I'm not certain about the 584 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: exact amount of money and that program. I will say 585 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: this that you know, progressively, over time with respect to 586 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: the Holocaust payments, there's been an increase in the number 587 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: of individuals who are identified as being eligible for payments. 588 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: So it has expanded, particularly to the descendants of the 589 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: folks who were the direct victims, in such a way 590 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: that it actually includes I believe, not only sons and daughters, 591 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: but nieces and nephews. So it really has become a 592 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: more expansive program in terms of treating the ramifications of 593 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: the harm. The United States to me seems like a 594 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: country that they do the right thing, not all the time, 595 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: but very often they do the right thing only when 596 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: it's absolutely necessary. As my friend who was a professor 597 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: at n y U Law School, he had a great quote. 598 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: He said, when the Supreme Court ruled in the Brown 599 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: versus Board of Education decision, they didn't wake up that 600 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: morning and have any new information. They woke up that 601 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: morning and they knew the timing was right, that they 602 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: had to do this, that the country absolutely demanded and 603 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 1: was ready for this change. Now, what do you think 604 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: is the foundation, if you will, of selling this to 605 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 1: the American people? How would you expect that to work 606 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: in the COVID ravaged and financially limping United States of today. So, 607 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's critical again that that I 608 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: emphasize that I don't believe that the United States is 609 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: crippled in terms of its capacity to finance anything new, 610 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 1: but it has to structure those financing programs in a 611 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: sensible way so that it mitigates the risk of inflation. 612 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: I think that we should not be mystified or paralyzed 613 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: the consequence of the United States having accumulated a significant 614 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: amount of debt already, because we don't have to continue 615 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: to fund new programs by accumulating additional debt. So I 616 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: think we should just proceed to do the right thing. Now, 617 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: what would it take to persuade the American public at 618 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: large that this is the right thing to do. There 619 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: is evidence of a substantial sea change in American attitudes 620 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: about the legitimacy and the desirability of a reparation's plan 621 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: for Black Americans, which would have the effect of finally 622 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: giving Black Americans the material conditions for full citizenship, their 623 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: grounds for optimism because in a survey that was done 624 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: by Michael Dawson and Ravana pop Off, two researchers at 625 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: the University of Chicago the beginning of this century year 626 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: two thousand, they found that four percent of white Americans 627 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: were in favor of reparations for Black Americans. That's fou 628 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: r four. But about fifteen or sixteen months ago, a 629 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: survey indicated that about fifteen percent of white Americans were 630 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: now in favor of reparations. And the most recent survey 631 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: that I'm aware of, one that was conducted by the 632 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: organization Civics in June, indicated, and I'm not sure you 633 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: know how much confidence I have in this number, but 634 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: it indicated the thirty nine percent of white Americans are 635 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 1: now in favor of reparations for Black Americans. So even 636 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: if that's off by nine percentage points, it still would 637 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: represent a doubling of the figure that we had fifteen 638 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: or sixteen months ago. So I'm not sure if this 639 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: is a permanent change. I'm not sure if we can 640 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: make it a permanent change, but it sounds like the 641 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 1: momentum is moving in the right direction. This is here's 642 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: the thing. I'm Alec Baldwin, and I'm talking to Duke 643 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: University professor William Darty about reparations. If you like, here's 644 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,720 Speaker 1: a thing, don't keep it to yourself, tell a friend. 645 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: You can subscribe to hear the thing on the I 646 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 647 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 1: After the break, we'll talk about how, according to Darty's proposal, 648 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: the federal government could determine who is eligible to receive reparations. 649 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 1: William Darety teaches economics at Duke University and has become 650 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: a leading advocate for reparations. He mentioned other cases where 651 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: reparations have been paid here in the US and in Germany. 652 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: I asked if he has any concern about other historically 653 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: marginalized groups like women, also coming forward to make a 654 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 1: case for reparations to actually no. Uh. We encourage whichever 655 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: group thinks they have a claim for a grievous injustice 656 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: to come forward and work on and present their claim. Uh, 657 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: just as we have in our book. We encourage other 658 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: folks who think that they have a legitimate claim to 659 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: craft their own narrative about why such a claim should 660 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: be met. I think it's really interesting that in the 661 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: process of the provision of reparations for Japanese Americans, uh, 662 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: in the process of the provision of reparations to the 663 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: families that lost loved ones in the nine one attacks, 664 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: they received significant federal compensation and the U. S Government 665 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: was not the culpable party in that instance either. But 666 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: in in those cases, I think there was some concern 667 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: about future claims being made by other groups, but this 668 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: was not something that proved to be an obstacle to 669 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: actually executing the project. So uh, yeah, it may well 670 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: be the case that there's I mean, the Native American 671 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: population has a strong case that I think is predicated 672 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: on sovereignty as opposed to the Black American case, which 673 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: is for used on citizenship. But certainly there's a case 674 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: to be made there and as far as we're concerned, 675 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: we welcome others to pursue their own case. We're just 676 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: tired of black, the Black American case being consistently pushed 677 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: to the back of the bus. Now. In October, the 678 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: governor of California signed a bill that will develop proposals 679 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: on paying out reparations to the descendants of the enslaved 680 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: who lived there. Now. Similar plans are underway in Rhode Island, 681 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: North Carolina, and elsewhere. Some would suggest that's a good 682 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: first step, you believe otherwise, correct, Yeah. I I certainly 683 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: believe that states and municipalities should establish what might be 684 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: called racial equity task forces, and I certainly believe that 685 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: they should address the scope of ongoing or sustained discriminatory 686 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: practices in their in their communities. But I don't think 687 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: that they should call the actions that they take reparation. 688 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: I think that in the context of the arguments we 689 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 1: make and from here to equality, we are concerned that 690 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: the concept of reparations has a certain proprietariness that's appropriate 691 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,959 Speaker 1: to the type of project that we describe. In particular, 692 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 1: if you were to take all of the funds that 693 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: the state and local governments spend in their budgets from 694 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: a year ago, it would amount to three point one 695 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: trillion dollars. That's the total for all purposes. If we 696 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,240 Speaker 1: have a reparations bill of ten to twelve trillion dollars, 697 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: there's no way that individually or collectively, our state and 698 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 1: local governments can actually meet the bill. And so uh 699 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: in addition to the fact that the federal government is 700 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: the culpable party, it is also the federal government that 701 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: has the practical capacity to actually fulfill the requirements of 702 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,439 Speaker 1: a reparations plan. And so as a consequence, I think 703 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 1: that as admirable as any local efforts are for atonement 704 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: or for change with respect to discriminatory practices within their states, 705 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: these things should not be called reparations. When you look 706 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: at the world and you look at history, is there 707 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: a model for what you want to do that you 708 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 1: can point to? Well? From our perspective, the model is 709 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: that's relevant to the United States experience. The model that's 710 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 1: most relevant is is the Japanese American Reparations Project. Is 711 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,399 Speaker 1: it possible to say that it was effective? That's much 712 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: harder to do because the individual recipients were not followed. 713 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: Nobody was concerned about making some type of judgment about 714 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 1: how they might use the money. Now you make mention 715 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: you said, we advanced two criteria to determine eligibility for 716 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 1: a black reparations program. First, U S citizens, we need 717 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 1: to establish that they had at least one ancestor who 718 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: was enslaved in the United States after the formation of 719 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: the Republic. Second, they would have to prove that they 720 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: self identified as black, Negro, Afro American, or African American 721 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,839 Speaker 1: at least twelve years before the enactment of the reparations 722 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,280 Speaker 1: program or the establishment of a congressional or presidential commission 723 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,280 Speaker 1: quote to study and develop reparations for African Americans unquote, 724 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,439 Speaker 1: whichever comes first. Does such a thing exists now? No, 725 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: not to my knowledge. Uh. Yeah. So the idea is 726 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: that we wouldn't want people to have to bear a 727 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,399 Speaker 1: significant financial burden to establish their eligibility. And since one 728 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: of the criteria for eligibility is demonstrating that you have 729 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: at least one ancestor that was enslaved in the United States, 730 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: we could have the federal government provide that investigation as 731 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: a service to individuals to me the genealogical component in 732 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 1: order for it to be really really helpful and be effective. 733 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: Is another thing you've got to build out in this operation. 734 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,280 Speaker 1: This is that this is a big operation to identify 735 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: who gets the money. Well, well, I mean this is 736 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: something that is as a debt that is overdue for 737 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: a hundred fifty five years, and it's a debt that 738 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: now is owed to forty million people. So yes, it's 739 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,839 Speaker 1: a substantial operation. I mean, if if if the debt 740 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: had been met in eighteen sixty five, it would have 741 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 1: involved the allocation of approximately on the low end estimate 742 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: of about forty million acres of land to the four 743 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: million newly emancipated Americans. And that that was not something 744 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: that was done. Today we're now talking about forty million people. 745 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that you would have solved every problem. 746 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: I think there's a quotation that we provide in the 747 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: text from Malcolm X that kind of captures the scope 748 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: of the issue, where Malcolm X talks about having a 749 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: knife plunged into his back nine inches and he makes 750 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,840 Speaker 1: a distinction between pulling the knife fount and healing the wound. 751 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,800 Speaker 1: From our perspective, reparations is a matter of healing the wound. 752 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: But there's a host of steps that need to be 753 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,399 Speaker 1: taken to make sure that the knife is pulled out 754 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: and that it stays out. And those are steps that 755 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 1: do not involve necessarily the types of payments that we're 756 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,959 Speaker 1: talking about, but the types of payments we're talking about 757 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 1: are essential, and they would have to take place for 758 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 1: the purposes of really altering the framework, the substance, and 759 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 1: the morality of this society in such a way that 760 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,839 Speaker 1: we really truly have an inclusive democracy, something we've never 761 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: actually had. Thank you very much for taking time to 762 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,280 Speaker 1: do this with us. Best of luck with your next book. 763 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 1: Thanks very much. William Darety teaches at Duke University and 764 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: is the co author with his wife Kirsten Mullen, of 765 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: From Here to Equality, Reparations for Black Americans in the 766 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,880 Speaker 1: twenty one century. I'm at like Baldwin. Here's the Thing 767 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're produced 768 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 1: by Kathleen Russo and Carrie donohue. Our editor is Zack 769 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,720 Speaker 1: mcneie and our engineers Frank Imperial. Special thanks to Sarah 770 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,760 Speaker 1: every and Justin Wright. 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