Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's Andrea Gunning. I know it's been a while,
Speaker 1: but today we are back with not just new bonus content,
Speaker 1: but with two major updates. First, we'll be back with
Speaker 1: season two of Betrayals starting May eighteenth, and we even
Speaker 1: have a sneak peek at the end of this episode. Second,
Speaker 1: Betrial Season one is being turned into a documentary. More
Speaker 1: details on where and when it will launch, so stay
Speaker 1: tuned on the feed for updates. In the meantime, check
Speaker 1: out this bonus episode about an incredible organization.
Speaker 2: Jen.
Speaker 1: One of the best parts of doing the podcast is
Speaker 1: learning about the resources didn't know about. And there's an
Speaker 1: organization called SASCO that really intrigues me.
Speaker 3: I had the opportunity a couple weekends ago to attend
Speaker 3: and I Will Survive weekend, which was put on by
Speaker 3: the SASCO organization out of South Carolina, and it was
Speaker 3: a great weekend. One of the ways we spent our
Speaker 3: time was learning self defense moves, specifically what were to
Speaker 3: happen if someone were to assault you or to come
Speaker 3: at you and attack you.
Speaker 1: And you brought some of the ladies back from the weekend.
Speaker 3: I wanted to bring back a little souvenir. So today,
Speaker 3: Shannon Henry and Brett Carney Brown of the SaaS Organization
Speaker 3: are here to talk to us about the five tactics
Speaker 3: predators used to break down their targets.
Speaker 1: Brett, can you share how SAS began?
Speaker 4: It really started because we have been working with survivors
Speaker 4: of violence for seventeen years in a number of different ways,
Speaker 4: and we kept hearing the same three questions. One why
Speaker 4: didn't I know that this could happen to me?
Speaker 5: Two?
Speaker 4: Why didn't I know what to do when it did?
Speaker 4: And three why didn't I know.
Speaker 5: Where to go for help?
Speaker 4: And that really was the beginning of what ultimately became
Speaker 4: the nonprofit because we wanted to make sure that everyone
Speaker 4: had the answers to those questions before anything ever happened.
Speaker 1: That makes total sense, Shannon, What was the idea that
Speaker 1: empowered you to do this?
Speaker 6: It wasn't until I took a self defense course that
Speaker 6: I really felt like for the first time I could
Speaker 6: trust my mind and my body to recognize danger and
Speaker 6: hopefully end it before anything happened.
Speaker 5: And it gave me the tools to do that.
Speaker 6: So really that was the impetus for me, was that
Speaker 6: empowerment it's the prevention which is super important. If we
Speaker 6: can keep people from having to experience this, that's what
Speaker 6: we want to do first and foremost. But it's also
Speaker 6: making sure that systems and agencies and women and girls
Speaker 6: and families know how to intervene when it does happen,
Speaker 6: and then how to get the response the help that
Speaker 6: they need in the aftermath.
Speaker 3: Shannon, you have gone through your own personal experience with
Speaker 3: sexual assault. Would you mind sharing that story with us?
Speaker 6: Like any other teenage girl, I dated a guy, fell
Speaker 6: in love. I thought he was wonderful. We dated for
Speaker 6: about a year. He put me on a pedestal and
Speaker 6: made me feel special. He was older than me, and
Speaker 6: I always had this idea in the back of my
Speaker 6: mind that I was lucky to be with him because
Speaker 6: he was somebody that other people wanted to be with
Speaker 6: as well, and he chose me. So one day after
Speaker 6: school he asked me to come by and bring him
Speaker 6: a mountain dew.
Speaker 5: To his place.
Speaker 6: I didn't want to go, and I knew I didn't
Speaker 6: want to go, but I felt this disease to please,
Speaker 6: and so I thought, Okay, I'll just go by, I'll
Speaker 6: drop it off. I'm not going to tell my mom
Speaker 6: where I'm going, because she'd kill me if she knew
Speaker 6: I was going to his house by myself, but I did.
Speaker 6: When I walked in, things were different than they normally
Speaker 6: were there. It was loud and there were a few
Speaker 6: other people there. I also noticed that he had alcohol
Speaker 6: in his breath, and so I said, you know, here's
Speaker 6: your drink. I've got to go, but i'll talk to
Speaker 6: you later. And he said, well, just wait a second.
Speaker 6: I want you to come back in my bedroom with
Speaker 6: me for just a second. I want to show you something.
Speaker 6: And I thought, oh, I don't want to go back
Speaker 6: in his bedroom. But at the same time, it's my
Speaker 6: boyfriend and I trust him and I love him, he
Speaker 6: loves me.
Speaker 5: We're fine.
Speaker 6: So I walked back in his bedroom and he shut
Speaker 6: the door, and I can still see him turning the
Speaker 6: lock on it, and I remember looking at that and going,
Speaker 6: why is he locking the door? And then that's when
Speaker 6: he looked at me and he started to kiss me.
Speaker 6: But it was a kiss that wasn't about me, and
Speaker 6: it wasn't about us, it was about him, and I
Speaker 6: didn't like it. I was very uncomfortable, and I pushed
Speaker 6: away from him and I said, look, I've got to go,
Speaker 6: and he grabbed my wrist and it hurt, and he said,
Speaker 6: get on the bed or that's next, and beside the
Speaker 6: bed was a hunting knife, and I remember thinking, there's
Speaker 6: no way he's going to hurt me. But I was
Speaker 6: scared enough to lay down on the bed and not
Speaker 6: make a noise. And he did with me what I
Speaker 6: didn't want to do. And then he stood me up
Speaker 6: and he opened the door and kissed me on the
Speaker 6: cheek and said, how fun at dance?
Speaker 5: And I walked out. I remember just being totally in a.
Speaker 6: Fog, and as I looked to my right, there were
Speaker 6: three people that I knew well from high school, and
Speaker 6: they all high fived each other as I walked out,
Speaker 6: as if it had been planned before I got there.
Speaker 6: And I got in my car, I went to dance.
Speaker 6: I didn't say a word. I went home. I got
Speaker 6: in the bed and I cried myself to sleep, and
Speaker 6: I never talked about it again. In my mind, I
Speaker 6: was already turning inward and blaming myself. I was in
Speaker 6: dance clothes. I shouldn't have gone there. I knew better,
Speaker 6: like what was I doing? And so that started a spiral.
Speaker 6: I turned to drugs and alcohol and boys to self
Speaker 6: medici because I was only sixteen. But eventually I got
Speaker 6: the help that I needed and that was a turning
Speaker 6: point for me. But it wasn't until I took that
Speaker 6: self defense class that I really felt like I could
Speaker 6: trust my mind and my body again and fight for
Speaker 6: myself if I needed to. And I said, you know,
Speaker 6: if you left your purse out and somebody stole your wallet,
Speaker 6: it's not because you left your purse out, it's because
Speaker 6: there was.
Speaker 5: A thief in the room.
Speaker 6: So nothing that I did that day should have resulted
Speaker 6: in my rape, except that there was a rapist in
Speaker 6: the room.
Speaker 1: Jan thank you for sharing that. It was difficult to
Speaker 1: hear as a fellow survivor.
Speaker 3: To be honest, Dre, you've never brought this up before.
Speaker 1: I know, I don't really talk about it. I think
Speaker 1: that the one thing that I'm just kind of reckoning
Speaker 1: with is the fact that you can kind of define
Speaker 1: look at this behavior after the fact, But these perpetrators
Speaker 1: and these predators are so good that the red flags
Speaker 1: are usually not even there. Like in my case, I
Speaker 1: wasn't picking up these character traits in the moment you
Speaker 1: would never know this was your boyfriend, Shannon, this was
Speaker 1: your husband that you knew from college.
Speaker 3: Jen, Shannon, I think one of the words that can
Speaker 3: describe my ex husband's behavior is predatory.
Speaker 5: What are some of.
Speaker 3: The tactics that these predators use?
Speaker 6: Sencer was using what we call the top five predatory tactics.
Speaker 6: The first one is what we call the smile that hides.
Speaker 6: Body can come into your world unless you invite them in.
Speaker 6: And these predators know that. And from the time we're little,
Speaker 6: when somebody smiles at us, it means what that they
Speaker 6: like you, they're approachable, Yeah, And so in that way
Speaker 6: they start to build the trust with you, and it
Speaker 6: seems like a welcoming environment, and so they use that.
Speaker 6: And there's something that we hall charm that they use,
Speaker 6: and charm is not something that we're born with. It
Speaker 6: is a mechanism we use in order to get what
Speaker 6: we want. And so when we look at what Spence did,
Speaker 6: there was a point in there when Jen, your friend said,
Speaker 6: I wanted to come to you, but he was just
Speaker 6: so charming, And I think that's a clear indicator right
Speaker 6: there of just how charming he was. And part of
Speaker 6: the reason he was such a beloved and decorated teacher
Speaker 6: was because he was charming to not only her, but
Speaker 6: to students and faculty and staff, so that he could
Speaker 6: be perceived as trustworthy and somebody that you would want
Speaker 6: to be around.
Speaker 4: And embedding himself in the community. That's something we see
Speaker 4: over and over again.
Speaker 6: So the second thing that happens is something called forced teaming.
Speaker 6: So it's a way to build a camaraderie and to
Speaker 6: kind of gain some trust, and in order to do
Speaker 6: the things that he wanted to do, he had to
Speaker 6: gain trust. We listened to your former friend talk about
Speaker 6: how he would talk to her about soccer.
Speaker 2: It happened so slowly, finding things that were similarities between us,
Speaker 2: like I played soccer, you know, he played soccer.
Speaker 5: I coached, he coached.
Speaker 2: So early conversations would be, you know, when we run
Speaker 2: into each other, like oh, how's the game, or how's coaching,
Speaker 2: or hey, coach. You know, certain things that were not
Speaker 2: necessarily flirtingacious, but getting to know me and my family
Speaker 2: and you know, making me feel comfortable with him.
Speaker 6: Over time, they turn what would be a normal conversation
Speaker 6: of I like to do this to a we like
Speaker 6: to do this because you want to form that bond
Speaker 6: between the.
Speaker 5: Two of you to further build trust.
Speaker 6: It killed me in his letter when he said, dear villagers,
Speaker 6: that's a we. We're all in this together. This is
Speaker 6: our village. Then he said thanks for being such good
Speaker 6: friends to Jin, and that was another way for him
Speaker 6: to create the wei where none existed.
Speaker 3: I never thought about it like that.
Speaker 6: Then we go into number three, which is too many details.
Speaker 6: So perpetrators often give too many details when they're covering
Speaker 6: their tracks, and the reason they do that is because
Speaker 6: they know that what they're saying is a lie, but
Speaker 6: they have to convince you that what they're saying is
Speaker 6: not a lie. So they go on and on giving
Speaker 6: you so many details to where it sounds convincing, and
Speaker 6: unless they see on your face that you believe them,
Speaker 6: they'll keep going.
Speaker 5: On and on and on.
Speaker 6: When we go into the fourth one, we've got typecasting
Speaker 6: and judgment that pops up. I remember in one specific
Speaker 6: instance when the student was talking about meeting with Spencer
Speaker 6: and she said, at some point in that conversation, I quote,
Speaker 6: you are a woman, are you not.
Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, Spencer made a hard play for at
Speaker 1: least one other student at hel high school, and yes
Speaker 1: she was a teenager. Here are some of the messages
Speaker 1: he sent to that student.
Speaker 6: What about hanging after school one day, We'd get away
Speaker 6: from this place.
Speaker 1: And when he didn't get the result he wanted, he
Speaker 1: tried a different tactic her adulthood. You are a woman,
Speaker 1: are you not?
Speaker 6: That is a judgment, That is him saying, are you
Speaker 6: not going to act like a woman? And it type
Speaker 6: cast her into a role that she didn't sign up for.
Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier the need to please, trying to be friendly,
Speaker 1: be a good friend. Do you feel like the need
Speaker 1: to please comes from a place of fear, fear of
Speaker 1: losing your boyfriend, the fear of losing a friend.
Speaker 4: One of the things we teach in classes is really
Speaker 4: flipping that script. We talk about the fact that we
Speaker 4: have all walked into a room or a relationship and thought, oh,
Speaker 4: I hope they like me, but instead thinking I hope
Speaker 4: I like them, I hope they live up to my standard.
Speaker 4: I hope that this is somebody that I want to
Speaker 4: show off to the whole world. And if I don't,
Speaker 4: something is wrong. It's not something wrong with me, something
Speaker 4: is wrong with them. And looking at it that way
Speaker 4: and giving ourselves permission to hurt their feelings. You're allowed
Speaker 4: to say no, and they will survive it, even if
Speaker 4: they're unhappy about it. No is a full sentence. It
Speaker 4: doesn't have to be explained. It doesn't have to be
Speaker 4: excused like it is no period and teaching women and girls.
Speaker 4: You can do that and that's okay and still be
Speaker 4: a good person and happy with yourself because if you
Speaker 4: need to say no, they're not living up to your standard,
Speaker 4: and you can walk out with no explanation.
Speaker 1: Was there anything else that you heard in gen story
Speaker 1: that stayed with you?
Speaker 4: I think about the woman in the band because I
Speaker 4: remember she said I wasn't as good as everybody else,
Speaker 4: and I didn't know why I was there that hook
Speaker 4: of where there was a certain amount of really low
Speaker 4: self esteem and not trusting herself to be enough, which
Speaker 4: is not her fault, and he took advantage of that.
Speaker 7: I wasn't nearly as talented as any of the rest
Speaker 7: of them in the group. I don't really know how
Speaker 7: I got approve, but I felt like he made it
Speaker 7: a point to push for me to be in the band.
Speaker 7: Here I'm having this awesome opportunity, and I knew like, God,
Speaker 7: I shouldn't be going. So I guess I felt like
Speaker 7: I owed him something.
Speaker 1: I have so much gratitude for Hope for being that
Speaker 1: radically honest about her self worth and self esteem, because
Speaker 1: that really showed the dynamics at play.
Speaker 5: Throughout the history of the podcast.
Speaker 6: It was so incredible to watch the different dynamics play
Speaker 6: out and the different people and jen it's so eye
Speaker 6: opening to people like us who've been doing this for
Speaker 6: a long time to hear the different patterns and to
Speaker 6: see the way that he moved through all of these
Speaker 6: people and the way he selected his victims. But it
Speaker 6: was also interesting to see that he chose you, and
Speaker 6: I think, you know, there was a hartspense that really
Speaker 6: did look up to you and really thought you were
Speaker 6: this incredible woman who had all these gifts and all
Speaker 6: these talents, and you were confident and in a way
Speaker 6: when you look at it strategically, I guess we'll say
Speaker 6: it also was another plaque on the wall. I'm married,
Speaker 6: I have this great wife, she's smart. I'm not the
Speaker 6: guy that's doing these.
Speaker 8: Things, Jennifer. Ever since I saw you walk into that
Speaker 8: hotel lobby last year, I've known what I'm supposed to
Speaker 8: do with the rest of my life. I feel beyond
Speaker 8: honored to know you, to love you, and to accept
Speaker 8: the most privilege of all things being your husband.
Speaker 6: It was the Hollywood movie said that he was portraying
Speaker 6: with all of his accolades and his wife, that is
Speaker 6: this amazing human.
Speaker 4: The other thing that stood out to me was your
Speaker 4: kindness in hearing the truth and being honest about all
Speaker 4: the hard parts, but offering a soft place to land
Speaker 4: for these women who, while you have been through so much,
Speaker 4: you know they've been through. Something also that stood out
Speaker 4: to me over and over and over again, because part
Speaker 4: of the conversation that we have, particularly with families or schools,
Speaker 4: is understanding what grace looks like and how to wrap
Speaker 4: your arms around somebody in an almost impossible situation. I
Speaker 4: think it sets an example and opens up a safe space,
Speaker 4: like you said, for more people to come forward and
Speaker 4: to talk about it and to feel free doing that.
Speaker 1: What were some of the questions that a lot of
Speaker 1: survivors are bringing to the table when they're looking for help.
Speaker 4: More so than their general questions, is that they felt alone.
Speaker 4: And it wasn't until somebody stood up in front of
Speaker 4: a group of people and acknowledged that these things do happen,
Speaker 4: that we are not alone, and the more we talk
Speaker 4: about it, the stronger we get together, and that we
Speaker 4: can look at what's going on and recognize in every
Speaker 4: incident of violence or assault or abuse, there's really only
Speaker 4: one person to blame, and so how can we take
Speaker 4: freedom from that and then move forward looking at the
Speaker 4: world with a slightly different lens. Watching so many women
Speaker 4: recognize that there is a sisterhood in that room and yeah,
Speaker 4: that they're not alone. You genuinely can see people get
Speaker 4: taller and start to recognize that they did everything they
Speaker 4: could with what they had and collectively will build from here.
Speaker 6: When we look at natural disasters and different things that
Speaker 6: happen in the world, let's say a hurricane, there's this
Speaker 6: collective community response where everybody shows up and says, we're
Speaker 6: all here to support you and help. The problem with
Speaker 6: sexual assault, domestic violence, stalking, any kind of interpersonal violence
Speaker 6: is behind closed. It's private, and so you do feel alone.
Speaker 6: But once you collectively come together as a group, and
Speaker 6: podcasts like yours are so helpful because you're saying no, no,
Speaker 6: you're not alone.
Speaker 1: You're not alone. Never forget that. You guys are doing
Speaker 1: incredible work. For more information on sasa's educational and self
Speaker 1: defense programs, go to sasco dot org. Thank you for
Speaker 1: joining us today, Yes, thank you, and thanks to you
Speaker 1: guys our Betrayal community, and get ready, we'll be back
Speaker 1: with season two of Betrayals starting May eighteenth. It's about
Speaker 1: a new betrayal that rarely ever is spoken about, but
Speaker 1: will confront it head on. Here's a sneak peek.
Speaker 9: My husband and I were opening a business. His first
Speaker 9: job was that very next day, one of the clients
Speaker 9: had asked if they could bend moo. Him called me
Speaker 9: that morning September twenty ninth, twenty twenty one. He was like,
Speaker 9: I need you to set up my business Venmo, and
Speaker 9: I was like, all right, use your name and password
Speaker 9: for whatever email is connected to your venmo. So he
Speaker 9: sent me the log in for his eCloud and as
Speaker 9: I'm signing in, he frantically calls me back. He was like, Oh,
Speaker 9: don't worry about it, we'll do it together when we
Speaker 9: get home. Like, I'm sorry, it's gonna be too much, Like,
Speaker 9: don't do it. I knew by the tenor of his
Speaker 9: voice that he was trying to hide something. I thought
Speaker 9: maybe he bought something that he didn't want me to
Speaker 9: know about. There was nothing in his photos, and then
Speaker 9: I scrolled down and that's when I saw a hidden
Speaker 9: folder and I opened it. You know, when you open
Speaker 9: your photos, it's going to show you like a whole
Speaker 9: bunch of them at once. I slammed my computer shut.
Speaker 9: What the hell did I just see