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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's Andrea Gunning. I know it's been a while,

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Speaker 1: but today we are back with not just new bonus content,

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Speaker 1: but with two major updates. First, we'll be back with

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Speaker 1: season two of Betrayals starting May eighteenth, and we even

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Speaker 1: have a sneak peek at the end of this episode. Second,

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Speaker 1: Betrial Season one is being turned into a documentary. More

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Speaker 1: details on where and when it will launch, so stay

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Speaker 1: tuned on the feed for updates. In the meantime, check

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Speaker 1: out this bonus episode about an incredible organization.

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Speaker 2: Jen.

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Speaker 1: One of the best parts of doing the podcast is

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Speaker 1: learning about the resources didn't know about. And there's an

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Speaker 1: organization called SASCO that really intrigues me.

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Speaker 3: I had the opportunity a couple weekends ago to attend

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Speaker 3: and I Will Survive weekend, which was put on by

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Speaker 3: the SASCO organization out of South Carolina, and it was

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Speaker 3: a great weekend. One of the ways we spent our

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Speaker 3: time was learning self defense moves, specifically what were to

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Speaker 3: happen if someone were to assault you or to come

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Speaker 3: at you and attack you.

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Speaker 1: And you brought some of the ladies back from the weekend.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to bring back a little souvenir. So today,

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Speaker 3: Shannon Henry and Brett Carney Brown of the SaaS Organization

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Speaker 3: are here to talk to us about the five tactics

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Speaker 3: predators used to break down their targets.

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Speaker 1: Brett, can you share how SAS began?

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Speaker 4: It really started because we have been working with survivors

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Speaker 4: of violence for seventeen years in a number of different ways,

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Speaker 4: and we kept hearing the same three questions. One why

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Speaker 4: didn't I know that this could happen to me?

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Speaker 5: Two?

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Speaker 4: Why didn't I know what to do when it did?

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Speaker 4: And three why didn't I know.

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Speaker 5: Where to go for help?

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Speaker 4: And that really was the beginning of what ultimately became

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Speaker 4: the nonprofit because we wanted to make sure that everyone

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Speaker 4: had the answers to those questions before anything ever happened.

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Speaker 1: That makes total sense, Shannon, What was the idea that

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Speaker 1: empowered you to do this?

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Speaker 6: It wasn't until I took a self defense course that

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Speaker 6: I really felt like for the first time I could

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Speaker 6: trust my mind and my body to recognize danger and

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Speaker 6: hopefully end it before anything happened.

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Speaker 5: And it gave me the tools to do that.

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Speaker 6: So really that was the impetus for me, was that

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Speaker 6: empowerment it's the prevention which is super important. If we

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Speaker 6: can keep people from having to experience this, that's what

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Speaker 6: we want to do first and foremost. But it's also

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Speaker 6: making sure that systems and agencies and women and girls

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Speaker 6: and families know how to intervene when it does happen,

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Speaker 6: and then how to get the response the help that

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Speaker 6: they need in the aftermath.

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Speaker 3: Shannon, you have gone through your own personal experience with

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Speaker 3: sexual assault. Would you mind sharing that story with us?

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Speaker 6: Like any other teenage girl, I dated a guy, fell

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Speaker 6: in love. I thought he was wonderful. We dated for

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Speaker 6: about a year. He put me on a pedestal and

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Speaker 6: made me feel special. He was older than me, and

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Speaker 6: I always had this idea in the back of my

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Speaker 6: mind that I was lucky to be with him because

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Speaker 6: he was somebody that other people wanted to be with

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Speaker 6: as well, and he chose me. So one day after

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Speaker 6: school he asked me to come by and bring him

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Speaker 6: a mountain dew.

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Speaker 5: To his place.

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Speaker 6: I didn't want to go, and I knew I didn't

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Speaker 6: want to go, but I felt this disease to please,

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Speaker 6: and so I thought, Okay, I'll just go by, I'll

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Speaker 6: drop it off. I'm not going to tell my mom

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Speaker 6: where I'm going, because she'd kill me if she knew

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Speaker 6: I was going to his house by myself, but I did.

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Speaker 6: When I walked in, things were different than they normally

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Speaker 6: were there. It was loud and there were a few

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Speaker 6: other people there. I also noticed that he had alcohol

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Speaker 6: in his breath, and so I said, you know, here's

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Speaker 6: your drink. I've got to go, but i'll talk to

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Speaker 6: you later. And he said, well, just wait a second.

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Speaker 6: I want you to come back in my bedroom with

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Speaker 6: me for just a second. I want to show you something.

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Speaker 6: And I thought, oh, I don't want to go back

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Speaker 6: in his bedroom. But at the same time, it's my

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Speaker 6: boyfriend and I trust him and I love him, he

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Speaker 6: loves me.

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Speaker 5: We're fine.

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Speaker 6: So I walked back in his bedroom and he shut

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Speaker 6: the door, and I can still see him turning the

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Speaker 6: lock on it, and I remember looking at that and going,

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Speaker 6: why is he locking the door? And then that's when

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Speaker 6: he looked at me and he started to kiss me.

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Speaker 6: But it was a kiss that wasn't about me, and

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Speaker 6: it wasn't about us, it was about him, and I

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Speaker 6: didn't like it. I was very uncomfortable, and I pushed

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Speaker 6: away from him and I said, look, I've got to go,

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Speaker 6: and he grabbed my wrist and it hurt, and he said,

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Speaker 6: get on the bed or that's next, and beside the

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Speaker 6: bed was a hunting knife, and I remember thinking, there's

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Speaker 6: no way he's going to hurt me. But I was

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Speaker 6: scared enough to lay down on the bed and not

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Speaker 6: make a noise. And he did with me what I

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Speaker 6: didn't want to do. And then he stood me up

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Speaker 6: and he opened the door and kissed me on the

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Speaker 6: cheek and said, how fun at dance?

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Speaker 5: And I walked out. I remember just being totally in a.

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Speaker 6: Fog, and as I looked to my right, there were

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Speaker 6: three people that I knew well from high school, and

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Speaker 6: they all high fived each other as I walked out,

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Speaker 6: as if it had been planned before I got there.

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Speaker 6: And I got in my car, I went to dance.

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Speaker 6: I didn't say a word. I went home. I got

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Speaker 6: in the bed and I cried myself to sleep, and

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Speaker 6: I never talked about it again. In my mind, I

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Speaker 6: was already turning inward and blaming myself. I was in

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Speaker 6: dance clothes. I shouldn't have gone there. I knew better,

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Speaker 6: like what was I doing? And so that started a spiral.

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Speaker 6: I turned to drugs and alcohol and boys to self

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Speaker 6: medici because I was only sixteen. But eventually I got

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Speaker 6: the help that I needed and that was a turning

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Speaker 6: point for me. But it wasn't until I took that

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Speaker 6: self defense class that I really felt like I could

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Speaker 6: trust my mind and my body again and fight for

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Speaker 6: myself if I needed to. And I said, you know,

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Speaker 6: if you left your purse out and somebody stole your wallet,

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Speaker 6: it's not because you left your purse out, it's because

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Speaker 6: there was.

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Speaker 5: A thief in the room.

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Speaker 6: So nothing that I did that day should have resulted

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Speaker 6: in my rape, except that there was a rapist in

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Speaker 6: the room.

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Speaker 1: Jan thank you for sharing that. It was difficult to

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Speaker 1: hear as a fellow survivor.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, Dre, you've never brought this up before.

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Speaker 1: I know, I don't really talk about it. I think

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Speaker 1: that the one thing that I'm just kind of reckoning

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Speaker 1: with is the fact that you can kind of define

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Speaker 1: look at this behavior after the fact, But these perpetrators

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Speaker 1: and these predators are so good that the red flags

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Speaker 1: are usually not even there. Like in my case, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't picking up these character traits in the moment you

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Speaker 1: would never know this was your boyfriend, Shannon, this was

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Speaker 1: your husband that you knew from college.

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Speaker 3: Jen, Shannon, I think one of the words that can

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Speaker 3: describe my ex husband's behavior is predatory.

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Speaker 5: What are some of.

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Speaker 3: The tactics that these predators use?

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Speaker 6: Sencer was using what we call the top five predatory tactics.

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Speaker 6: The first one is what we call the smile that hides.

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Speaker 6: Body can come into your world unless you invite them in.

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Speaker 6: And these predators know that. And from the time we're little,

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Speaker 6: when somebody smiles at us, it means what that they

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Speaker 6: like you, they're approachable, Yeah, And so in that way

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Speaker 6: they start to build the trust with you, and it

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Speaker 6: seems like a welcoming environment, and so they use that.

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Speaker 6: And there's something that we hall charm that they use,

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Speaker 6: and charm is not something that we're born with. It

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Speaker 6: is a mechanism we use in order to get what

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Speaker 6: we want. And so when we look at what Spence did,

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Speaker 6: there was a point in there when Jen, your friend said,

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Speaker 6: I wanted to come to you, but he was just

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Speaker 6: so charming, And I think that's a clear indicator right

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Speaker 6: there of just how charming he was. And part of

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Speaker 6: the reason he was such a beloved and decorated teacher

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Speaker 6: was because he was charming to not only her, but

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Speaker 6: to students and faculty and staff, so that he could

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Speaker 6: be perceived as trustworthy and somebody that you would want

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Speaker 6: to be around.

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Speaker 4: And embedding himself in the community. That's something we see

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Speaker 4: over and over again.

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Speaker 6: So the second thing that happens is something called forced teaming.

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Speaker 6: So it's a way to build a camaraderie and to

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Speaker 6: kind of gain some trust, and in order to do

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Speaker 6: the things that he wanted to do, he had to

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Speaker 6: gain trust. We listened to your former friend talk about

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Speaker 6: how he would talk to her about soccer.

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Speaker 2: It happened so slowly, finding things that were similarities between us,

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Speaker 2: like I played soccer, you know, he played soccer.

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Speaker 5: I coached, he coached.

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Speaker 2: So early conversations would be, you know, when we run

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Speaker 2: into each other, like oh, how's the game, or how's coaching,

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Speaker 2: or hey, coach. You know, certain things that were not

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Speaker 2: necessarily flirtingacious, but getting to know me and my family

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Speaker 2: and you know, making me feel comfortable with him.

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Speaker 6: Over time, they turn what would be a normal conversation

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Speaker 6: of I like to do this to a we like

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Speaker 6: to do this because you want to form that bond

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Speaker 6: between the.

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Speaker 5: Two of you to further build trust.

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Speaker 6: It killed me in his letter when he said, dear villagers,

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Speaker 6: that's a we. We're all in this together. This is

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Speaker 6: our village. Then he said thanks for being such good

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Speaker 6: friends to Jin, and that was another way for him

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Speaker 6: to create the wei where none existed.

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Speaker 3: I never thought about it like that.

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Speaker 6: Then we go into number three, which is too many details.

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Speaker 6: So perpetrators often give too many details when they're covering

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Speaker 6: their tracks, and the reason they do that is because

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Speaker 6: they know that what they're saying is a lie, but

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Speaker 6: they have to convince you that what they're saying is

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Speaker 6: not a lie. So they go on and on giving

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Speaker 6: you so many details to where it sounds convincing, and

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Speaker 6: unless they see on your face that you believe them,

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Speaker 6: they'll keep going.

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Speaker 5: On and on and on.

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Speaker 6: When we go into the fourth one, we've got typecasting

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Speaker 6: and judgment that pops up. I remember in one specific

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Speaker 6: instance when the student was talking about meeting with Spencer

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Speaker 6: and she said, at some point in that conversation, I quote,

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Speaker 6: you are a woman, are you not.

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Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, Spencer made a hard play for at

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Speaker 1: least one other student at hel high school, and yes

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Speaker 1: she was a teenager. Here are some of the messages

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Speaker 1: he sent to that student.

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Speaker 6: What about hanging after school one day, We'd get away

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Speaker 6: from this place.

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Speaker 1: And when he didn't get the result he wanted, he

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Speaker 1: tried a different tactic her adulthood. You are a woman,

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Speaker 1: are you not?

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Speaker 6: That is a judgment, That is him saying, are you

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Speaker 6: not going to act like a woman? And it type

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Speaker 6: cast her into a role that she didn't sign up for.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier the need to please, trying to be friendly,

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Speaker 1: be a good friend. Do you feel like the need

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Speaker 1: to please comes from a place of fear, fear of

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Speaker 1: losing your boyfriend, the fear of losing a friend.

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Speaker 4: One of the things we teach in classes is really

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Speaker 4: flipping that script. We talk about the fact that we

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Speaker 4: have all walked into a room or a relationship and thought, oh,

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Speaker 4: I hope they like me, but instead thinking I hope

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Speaker 4: I like them, I hope they live up to my standard.

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Speaker 4: I hope that this is somebody that I want to

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Speaker 4: show off to the whole world. And if I don't,

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Speaker 4: something is wrong. It's not something wrong with me, something

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Speaker 4: is wrong with them. And looking at it that way

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Speaker 4: and giving ourselves permission to hurt their feelings. You're allowed

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Speaker 4: to say no, and they will survive it, even if

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Speaker 4: they're unhappy about it. No is a full sentence. It

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Speaker 4: doesn't have to be explained. It doesn't have to be

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Speaker 4: excused like it is no period and teaching women and girls.

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Speaker 4: You can do that and that's okay and still be

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Speaker 4: a good person and happy with yourself because if you

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Speaker 4: need to say no, they're not living up to your standard,

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Speaker 4: and you can walk out with no explanation.

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Speaker 1: Was there anything else that you heard in gen story

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Speaker 1: that stayed with you?

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Speaker 4: I think about the woman in the band because I

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Speaker 4: remember she said I wasn't as good as everybody else,

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Speaker 4: and I didn't know why I was there that hook

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Speaker 4: of where there was a certain amount of really low

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Speaker 4: self esteem and not trusting herself to be enough, which

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Speaker 4: is not her fault, and he took advantage of that.

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Speaker 7: I wasn't nearly as talented as any of the rest

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Speaker 7: of them in the group. I don't really know how

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Speaker 7: I got approve, but I felt like he made it

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Speaker 7: a point to push for me to be in the band.

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Speaker 7: Here I'm having this awesome opportunity, and I knew like, God,

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Speaker 7: I shouldn't be going. So I guess I felt like

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Speaker 7: I owed him something.

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Speaker 1: I have so much gratitude for Hope for being that

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Speaker 1: radically honest about her self worth and self esteem, because

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Speaker 1: that really showed the dynamics at play.

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Speaker 5: Throughout the history of the podcast.

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Speaker 6: It was so incredible to watch the different dynamics play

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Speaker 6: out and the different people and jen it's so eye

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Speaker 6: opening to people like us who've been doing this for

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Speaker 6: a long time to hear the different patterns and to

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Speaker 6: see the way that he moved through all of these

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Speaker 6: people and the way he selected his victims. But it

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Speaker 6: was also interesting to see that he chose you, and

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Speaker 6: I think, you know, there was a hartspense that really

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Speaker 6: did look up to you and really thought you were

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Speaker 6: this incredible woman who had all these gifts and all

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Speaker 6: these talents, and you were confident and in a way

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Speaker 6: when you look at it strategically, I guess we'll say

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Speaker 6: it also was another plaque on the wall. I'm married,

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Speaker 6: I have this great wife, she's smart. I'm not the

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Speaker 6: guy that's doing these.

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Speaker 8: Things, Jennifer. Ever since I saw you walk into that

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Speaker 8: hotel lobby last year, I've known what I'm supposed to

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Speaker 8: do with the rest of my life. I feel beyond

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Speaker 8: honored to know you, to love you, and to accept

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Speaker 8: the most privilege of all things being your husband.

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Speaker 6: It was the Hollywood movie said that he was portraying

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Speaker 6: with all of his accolades and his wife, that is

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Speaker 6: this amazing human.

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Speaker 4: The other thing that stood out to me was your

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Speaker 4: kindness in hearing the truth and being honest about all

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Speaker 4: the hard parts, but offering a soft place to land

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Speaker 4: for these women who, while you have been through so much,

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Speaker 4: you know they've been through. Something also that stood out

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Speaker 4: to me over and over and over again, because part

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Speaker 4: of the conversation that we have, particularly with families or schools,

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Speaker 4: is understanding what grace looks like and how to wrap

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Speaker 4: your arms around somebody in an almost impossible situation. I

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Speaker 4: think it sets an example and opens up a safe space,

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Speaker 4: like you said, for more people to come forward and

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Speaker 4: to talk about it and to feel free doing that.

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Speaker 1: What were some of the questions that a lot of

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Speaker 1: survivors are bringing to the table when they're looking for help.

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Speaker 4: More so than their general questions, is that they felt alone.

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Speaker 4: And it wasn't until somebody stood up in front of

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Speaker 4: a group of people and acknowledged that these things do happen,

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Speaker 4: that we are not alone, and the more we talk

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Speaker 4: about it, the stronger we get together, and that we

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Speaker 4: can look at what's going on and recognize in every

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Speaker 4: incident of violence or assault or abuse, there's really only

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Speaker 4: one person to blame, and so how can we take

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Speaker 4: freedom from that and then move forward looking at the

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Speaker 4: world with a slightly different lens. Watching so many women

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Speaker 4: recognize that there is a sisterhood in that room and yeah,

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Speaker 4: that they're not alone. You genuinely can see people get

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Speaker 4: taller and start to recognize that they did everything they

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Speaker 4: could with what they had and collectively will build from here.

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Speaker 6: When we look at natural disasters and different things that

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Speaker 6: happen in the world, let's say a hurricane, there's this

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Speaker 6: collective community response where everybody shows up and says, we're

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Speaker 6: all here to support you and help. The problem with

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Speaker 6: sexual assault, domestic violence, stalking, any kind of interpersonal violence

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Speaker 6: is behind closed. It's private, and so you do feel alone.

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Speaker 6: But once you collectively come together as a group, and

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Speaker 6: podcasts like yours are so helpful because you're saying no, no,

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Speaker 6: you're not alone.

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Speaker 1: You're not alone. Never forget that. You guys are doing

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Speaker 1: incredible work. For more information on sasa's educational and self

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Speaker 1: defense programs, go to sasco dot org. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: joining us today, Yes, thank you, and thanks to you

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Speaker 1: guys our Betrayal community, and get ready, we'll be back

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Speaker 1: with season two of Betrayals starting May eighteenth. It's about

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Speaker 1: a new betrayal that rarely ever is spoken about, but

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Speaker 1: will confront it head on. Here's a sneak peek.

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Speaker 9: My husband and I were opening a business. His first

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Speaker 9: job was that very next day, one of the clients

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Speaker 9: had asked if they could bend moo. Him called me

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Speaker 9: that morning September twenty ninth, twenty twenty one. He was like,

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Speaker 9: I need you to set up my business Venmo, and

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Speaker 9: I was like, all right, use your name and password

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Speaker 9: for whatever email is connected to your venmo. So he

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Speaker 9: sent me the log in for his eCloud and as

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Speaker 9: I'm signing in, he frantically calls me back. He was like, Oh,

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Speaker 9: don't worry about it, we'll do it together when we

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Speaker 9: get home. Like, I'm sorry, it's gonna be too much, Like,

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Speaker 9: don't do it. I knew by the tenor of his

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Speaker 9: voice that he was trying to hide something. I thought

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Speaker 9: maybe he bought something that he didn't want me to

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Speaker 9: know about. There was nothing in his photos, and then

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Speaker 9: I scrolled down and that's when I saw a hidden

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Speaker 9: folder and I opened it. You know, when you open

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Speaker 9: your photos, it's going to show you like a whole

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Speaker 9: bunch of them at once. I slammed my computer shut.

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Speaker 9: What the hell did I just see