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Speaker 1: In twenty twelve, an American civil engineer named Matt Huang

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Speaker 1: was offered an intriguing opportunity to evaluate the wastewater and

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Speaker 1: reuse systems in the Middle Eastern country of Qatar as

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Speaker 1: they prepared to host the twenty twenty two World Cup.

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Speaker 1: So Matt, his wife, and their three adopted children embarked

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Speaker 1: on what seemed like an exciting new adventure. But on

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Speaker 1: January fifteenth, twenty thirteen, tragedy struck. Their middle child, Gloria,

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Speaker 1: had become mysteriously ill. She was rushed to the hospital

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Speaker 1: where CPR was performed, but she passed away. It was

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Speaker 1: reported that her death was caused by starvation and dehydration,

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Speaker 1: and the Katari police knew exactly who to blame. But

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Speaker 1: this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrong Conviction. Today's

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Speaker 1: episode is like a crazy mixture of Locked Up Abroad

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Speaker 1: meets the Twilight Zone meets No Good Deed Goes Unpunished

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Speaker 1: the Extreme Edition. Okay, and you'll understand as we go

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Speaker 1: along what I mean by all those references. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: be telling the story of Matt Huang, who is on

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Speaker 1: the air with us right now. Matt, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, And like I always say, I'm happy you're here,

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Speaker 1: well I'm happier here because you're not there, But I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry for what you had to go through to be

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Speaker 1: here on the show today. But with us, we have

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Speaker 1: somebody who everybody who listens to the show will recognize

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Speaker 1: one of my personal heroes, the founder of the California

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Speaker 1: Innocence Project, Professor Justin Brooks. So Justin, welcome back. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. Now, most of the cases we've covered,

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Speaker 1: they happen right here in the US, but Matt yours

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Speaker 1: happened halfway across the world in the Middle East, in

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Speaker 1: the nation of Qatar, to be exact. But before we

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Speaker 1: get to all of that, let's hear a little bit

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Speaker 1: about your life before all of this tragedy and insanity

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Speaker 1: took place.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in southern California in the LA area.

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Speaker 2: I'm a Chinese American. My parents are immigrants, but I'm

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Speaker 2: born and raised in the US. I have a bachelor's

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Speaker 2: degree from University California, Irvine, and I have a master's

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Speaker 2: degree in environmental engineering from Stanford University. I met and

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Speaker 2: married my wife, Grace, and we adopted three children from Africa.

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Speaker 2: My older son and my daughter Gloria are from Ghana.

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Speaker 2: My younger son is from Uganda. Being Chinese ethnically, you know,

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Speaker 2: everyone asked us, especially at that time, you know, why

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Speaker 2: not adopt from China. At that point, China had the

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Speaker 2: one child policy, and I just didn't feel like we

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Speaker 2: wanted to support what they were doing there because most

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Speaker 2: of their kids were available for adoption because the government

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Speaker 2: forced them to be, and not because they didn't have

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Speaker 2: parents love them. And we picked an adoption agency and

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Speaker 2: I'm an only child. At some point in the process,

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Speaker 2: we realized, oh, kind of having siblings might be kind

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Speaker 2: of nice, And there were a bunch of siblings in

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Speaker 2: the orphanage in Ghana thatot our adoption agency was working with,

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Speaker 2: and so that was one of the reasons we end

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Speaker 2: up going to Ghana for our first adoption.

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Speaker 1: And so that's when you adopted the two older siblings,

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Speaker 1: one of whom was your daughter Gloria. Now, at some

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Speaker 1: point after you and your wife adopted your third child,

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Speaker 1: you got what may have it must have sounded like

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Speaker 1: a really exciting opportunity halfway across the world in guitar.

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Speaker 2: At that point in time, Qatar had been awarded the

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two FIFA World Cup for soccer. They had

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Speaker 2: tons of people who were there to you know, do construction,

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Speaker 2: to do projects to get ready for that World Cup.

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Speaker 2: My company that I was working for at the time

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Speaker 2: transferred us there. I was working on a project looking

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Speaker 2: at planning on their wastewater systems and their reuse.

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Speaker 1: And so you and your family were living in the

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Speaker 1: capital city of Doha. Can you give us a bit

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Speaker 1: of europe first impression.

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Speaker 2: There's basically one city for all intents and purposes. It's

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Speaker 2: a pretty small country. It's probably a two hour drive,

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Speaker 2: you know, on a freeway in one direction, about an

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Speaker 2: hour drive in the other way. It's a monarchy. They're

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Speaker 2: only neighboring country, Saudi Arabia. It's one of the richest

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Speaker 2: countries in the world because of oil and natural gas.

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Speaker 2: The citizens actually get paid, at least when we were there,

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Speaker 2: it was something like about twenty six hundred dollars US

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Speaker 2: a month a person, including children, from the government. And

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Speaker 2: that's actually how the monarchy keeps power because they share

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Speaker 2: the oil and natural gas revenues with the citizens. It's

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Speaker 2: got about two million people in the country, but eighty

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Speaker 2: five percent of the people are foreigners, which mean there

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Speaker 2: are foreign workers that have been brought in. The majority

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Speaker 2: of the people who get brought into work are in

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Speaker 2: construction and those types of industries, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: these workers are paid three hundre buxham up or less.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of like a country of billionaires, so you

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Speaker 3: have to import a working class. It is a huge

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Speaker 3: amount of extraordinarily wealthy people and then this massive underclass.

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Speaker 2: There is definitely a social hierarchy. So if you're a

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Speaker 2: Gulf Arab, you're treated much better, and I would argue

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Speaker 2: that there's probably five or six levels of that hierarchy.

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Speaker 2: If you're a white person, you're looked on much more highly.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that we are Asians put us lower

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Speaker 2: down that hierarchy, not as low as say being black, right, which.

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Speaker 1: Of course all three of your children were. And that

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Speaker 1: ethnic disparity later played into the minds of these investigators

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Speaker 1: who were they were accustomed to seeing human trafficking and

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Speaker 1: to those types of injustices.

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Speaker 3: I saw it just flying in and out of the airport.

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Speaker 3: You would see these large groups of people coming in

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Speaker 3: from India and Africa that were all coming to work

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Speaker 3: on the World Cup Games, and it was well reported

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Speaker 3: in the media that there is slave trading going on,

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Speaker 3: that negotiations would happen with like town elders in Africa India,

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Speaker 3: and then the next thing you know, two hundred guys

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Speaker 3: get shipped over to work on construction the desert, building

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Speaker 3: these buildings. I don't know if I ever talked to

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Speaker 3: you about this.

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Speaker 1: Matt.

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Speaker 3: I had this driver there and when he first picked

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Speaker 3: me up, I said, how do you like living here?

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Speaker 3: Because he was from the Philippines and he'd been there

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Speaker 3: like six months. He says, Oh, it's great, it's great,

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Speaker 3: blah blah blah, blah blah. Then he sees you on

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Speaker 3: the news and he knows about your case and he

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Speaker 3: knows why I'm there, and then he says to me,

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Speaker 3: this has been terrible. They took my passport when I

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Speaker 3: got in the country. They told me I was going

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Speaker 3: to make all this money, and they're not paying me anything.

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Speaker 3: I'm grateful I get to be a driver because I

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Speaker 3: see these guys dying every day in the desert who

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Speaker 3: are construction workers, who are living in the same dormitory

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Speaker 3: that I'm living in, And I'm just counting the days

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Speaker 3: until they give me my passport back so I can

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Speaker 3: leave the country.

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Speaker 1: I'm rarely at a loss for words, but I don't

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Speaker 1: have any words.

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Speaker 3: This is what's going on there, a country that we

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Speaker 3: gave the World Cup to. It's shocking there. You know,

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Speaker 3: there is this veneer of success, but beneath it, there's

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Speaker 3: this sort of repressive operation through the monarchy and the

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Speaker 3: control of the government and the justice system. And Matt's

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Speaker 3: story is sort of wrapped up in that.

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Speaker 1: And so while Matt and his family had to navigate

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Speaker 1: almost like a caste system as well as a language

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Speaker 1: that they just didn't understand, something truly tragic happened to

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Speaker 1: their adopted daughter from Ghana. I'm talking, of course about Gloria.

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Speaker 3: Gloria came from an environment of extreme, you know, a

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Speaker 3: kind of extremity that as Americans we can't even really comprehend.

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Speaker 3: She developed an eating disorder because she ate when the

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Speaker 3: food drops came, and so there were long periods of

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Speaker 3: time that literally they didn't have food, and Matt and

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Speaker 3: his wife were trying to develop good eating habits because

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Speaker 3: she would go on they called food strikes and would

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Speaker 3: neat for a few days. And so this had happened repeatedly.

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Speaker 1: So Gloria had been really struggling with this eating disorder,

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Speaker 1: and who knows what ramifications it was having on her

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Speaker 1: little fragile eight year old body. And that brings us

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Speaker 1: up to January fifteenth, twenty thirteen, just about six months

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Speaker 1: into the Huang family stint in Qatar.

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Speaker 2: I found my daughter Gloria in her room, sickly on

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Speaker 2: the floor, and we had been there like six months,

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Speaker 2: so I didn't think I even knew the number of emergency.

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Speaker 2: So I put her in the car, drove her to

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Speaker 2: the hospital and they worked on her CPR, and then

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Speaker 2: they told me she had died. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: was talking to my wife of course on the phone,

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Speaker 2: but my sons had gone to bed, so we woke

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Speaker 2: them up, told them what happened, drove them back from

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Speaker 2: the hospital, and basically they give us like a couple

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Speaker 2: minutes with Gloria, and then police started questioning us. They

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Speaker 2: separated me from my wife and my sons brought me

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Speaker 2: out to a vehicle in the hospital parking lot. There

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Speaker 2: were like twenty guys surrounding me and started peppering me with.

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Speaker 1: Questions in English.

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Speaker 2: In English, basically, they're starting to accuse me of you're

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Speaker 2: a bad father, you don't know what's going on with

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Speaker 2: your kid, and so they were going after me for

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Speaker 2: I don't know, an hour and a half or something,

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Speaker 2: and so at some point they drive me to a

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Speaker 2: police station, asked me a couple questions. At this point,

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Speaker 2: I have no idea where my wife and kids are.

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Speaker 2: And then they drove me to another police station where

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Speaker 2: now there was a couple guys that start interrogating me

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Speaker 2: and trying to make a written statement. That I speak

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Speaker 2: zero Arabic and these two guys are English is horrendous.

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Speaker 2: So they're typing this out in Arabic, you know, and

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Speaker 2: asking me questions and how you do a statement without

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Speaker 2: any translation is without me, and so then they print

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Speaker 2: now asked me to sign it, which I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: tell me what you wrote. So he sat there and

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Speaker 2: he translated everything for me. And then after that this

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Speaker 2: other guy came in and he looked at it and

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Speaker 2: asked them to make these like changes to my statement.

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Speaker 2: Here far I signed it right, And so after they

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Speaker 2: made these changes, I was like, okay, read this to me,

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Speaker 2: tell me what's written, and they said, no, you just

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Speaker 2: have to sign it. I was brought into this room

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Speaker 2: where I found my wife and my sons. Now this

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Speaker 2: is six in the morning, after they had just made

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Speaker 2: me sign a statement where they made changes, and I

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Speaker 2: had no idea what changes they made.

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Speaker 1: So what was their theory? I mean, do we actually

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Speaker 1: know what was wrong with Gloria?

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Speaker 3: The hard answer is that we don't know, and we

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Speaker 3: don't know because the autopsy that was done was a

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Speaker 3: complete fabrication. When it was later looked into, you know,

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Speaker 3: organs were still pristine. There wasn't the kind of examination

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Speaker 3: that needed to be done in order to come to

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Speaker 3: a conclusion. What we do know is that the child

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Speaker 3: did not die of starvation, which is what the prosecution

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Speaker 3: was pursuing. She developed eating disorder, which meant she would

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Speaker 3: go on what they called food strikes and wouldn't eat

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Speaker 3: for a few days. When they find out about that,

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Speaker 3: that then becomes a foundation for a prosecut even though

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Speaker 3: in reality, the mere fact that a child doesn't eat

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Speaker 3: for a couple of days doesn't cause them to die,

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Speaker 3: and she clearly did not die of starvation. It's just literally,

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Speaker 3: scientifically medically impossible based on the evidence that that's how

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Speaker 3: she died. But Sadly, like many of these cases, it

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Speaker 3: started with an officer making assumptions and just rolling with them.

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Speaker 3: And in Matt's case, the assumption was their daughters deceased.

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Speaker 3: You see Asian parents, you see black children, and now, oh,

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Speaker 3: they must be slave traders. They're not a couple from

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Speaker 3: the United States who just went through a normal adoption

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Speaker 3: process and a Stanford trained engineer. They must be slave traders.

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Speaker 3: And they were being prosecuted for starving their daughter to

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Speaker 3: death to harvest her organs.

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Speaker 1: So Matt's engineering degree and work visa, there are American

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Speaker 1: passports and adoption papers. None of this seemed to make

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Speaker 1: a difference with the good police, and none of it

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Speaker 1: made them rethink this theory. But rather just going on appearances,

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Speaker 1: you know, with the cultural lens that they looked at

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Speaker 1: it through from the Katari social hierarchy, they felt that

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Speaker 1: it was plausible somehow that an Asian couple of a

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Speaker 1: loving family with all this history might be harvesting and

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Speaker 1: selling the internal organs of their African children.

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Speaker 3: There was all kinds of racism as well, just within

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Speaker 3: the evidence. As I recall one of the police reports,

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Speaker 3: it literally said, why would anyone adopt black children, challenging

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Speaker 3: the fact that they were adopted.

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Speaker 2: The police report actually said black children were ugly.

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Speaker 3: That's awful.

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Speaker 2: My kids are not ugly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're saying out loud the stuff that people shouldn't

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Speaker 3: even be thinking and writing it in a police report

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Speaker 3: that's being introduced into evidence. And that's just an example

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Speaker 3: how outrageous this whole thing was.

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Speaker 1: You know, we see a time and again in this

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Speaker 1: country as well, that when a child dies, it's just

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Speaker 1: terrifying to people and it's so terribly difficult for them

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Speaker 1: to grapple with the idea that this could happen to

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Speaker 1: an innocent child. That's often too often someone is needless

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Speaker 1: escapegoaded for that death, the death of a child. And

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Speaker 1: this time it was two people, two loving parents who

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Speaker 1: still don't forget they had two other children, two boys.

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Speaker 2: So the first night they stayed with our friends, and

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Speaker 2: then after that they were thrown into a country orphanage

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Speaker 2: because the country government was concerned that we had trafficked

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Speaker 2: to them, even though our kids had us passports and

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Speaker 2: adoption documents.

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Speaker 3: Which were used to get them visas and some of

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Speaker 3: the photos that would put in evidence, which is insane

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Speaker 3: that anyoneuld think they're trafficking. It's like, here's Matt and

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Speaker 3: his family horseback ride. Here they are on a family

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Speaker 3: vacation when they're saying, you know, Glory doesn't have access

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Speaker 3: to water. Oh, here's our en sweet bathroom. Here's actual

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Speaker 3: water bottles next to her bed. I mean, it just

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Speaker 3: none of it could be put together to make any

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Speaker 3: sense except for what the truth was, just an average

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Speaker 3: American family with adopted kids and an overseas job.

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Speaker 1: Poor kids were traumatized, I mean and retraumatized. Right, First

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Speaker 1: they lose their their sibling, and then they lose their family,

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Speaker 1: and then they're in an orphanage and then they're.

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Speaker 2: Right, and you have to remember they're already orphaned once, right,

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Speaker 2: so trauma.

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Speaker 1: Right, So this is retraumatizing yet.

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Speaker 3: And they also don't speak Arabic.

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Speaker 1: So the two boys were once again without parents, now

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Speaker 1: though in a strange land where they didn't even speak

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Speaker 1: the language. I guess if there is a silver lion,

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Speaker 1: the only one is that they had each other. So

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Speaker 1: how long did this orphanage situation last?

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Speaker 2: It took about four months to get the kids out

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Speaker 2: of the cunty orphanage and then they had a travel

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Speaker 2: ban on them, so my mother in law came to

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Speaker 2: Qatar to come take care of them. After about four

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Speaker 2: more months, they were permitted to leave the country.

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Speaker 1: Right, which couldn't have happened soon enough. Meanwhile, you and

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Speaker 1: your wife are stuck in a Katari jail where I'm

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Speaker 1: going to imagine you felt terribly isolated, not understanding Arabic.

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Speaker 2: Well, because you have people from everywhere. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: broken English and broken Arabic are kind of the language

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Speaker 2: in practice inside the jail. I ended up being in

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Speaker 2: the jail for about ten months. I spent a lot

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Speaker 2: of time praying, reading my Bible, just hanging out with guys,

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Speaker 2: because honestly, it felt like a college dormitory at least

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Speaker 2: in terms of the relationship with the other guys. Two

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Speaker 2: thirds of the prison are people who feel like everyone

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Speaker 2: you're going to run on the street, that were on

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Speaker 2: trial for things that were so absurd.

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Speaker 1: There are one that sticks out in your mind.

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Speaker 2: There was one guy who was clearly scammed, and they

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Speaker 2: arrested him for theft and convicted him of theft because

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Speaker 2: they said, okay, fine, bring the scammer to court. Well,

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Speaker 2: the scammer wasn't even in the country.

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Speaker 3: During Matt's trial, your brother or brother in law.

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Speaker 2: My brother in law.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, your brother in law was arrested for taking a

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Speaker 3: photograph of the courthouse because that is an illegal act

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Speaker 3: and they had to sign confessions in order to be released.

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Speaker 2: I think a third of the people in there are

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Speaker 2: actually factually innocent, that's my best estimate. And another quarter

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Speaker 2: are in there because of out of wedlock sex cases.

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Speaker 1: Which wow, a quarter of them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: In general, out of wedlock sex is illegal in most

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Speaker 2: of the Gulf Arab countries and typically they would get

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Speaker 2: arrested if they were with a maid in usually a

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Speaker 2: Katari home. A member of the household could file a

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Speaker 2: case because there was a strange man in their house

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Speaker 2: who had come to visit their maid, so they charged

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Speaker 2: him with trespassing and without at locked sex, and they

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Speaker 2: will almost always get a trespassing conviction even if they

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Speaker 2: cannot demonstrate and out of wedlock sex conviction.

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Speaker 3: Don't visit there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think we've pretty much lost any chance

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Speaker 1: we have of getting sponsored by the Katari Tourism Board.

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Speaker 1: But that's the way it goes.

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Speaker 2: And there's definitely uneven persecution because we know that the

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Speaker 2: Katari employees were raping their maids, but they would never

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Speaker 2: go after the Kataris for that.

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Speaker 1: Whoao, So your Katari counterparts at work they were regularly

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Speaker 1: raping their maids but weren't facing any consequences or being prosecuted.

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Speaker 1: But people who were having consensual out of wedlock sex

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Speaker 1: they're punished.

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Speaker 3: That's the definition of irony.

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Speaker 1: Again, I don't have any words. I mean, it's just

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Speaker 1: too much. So what were the actual charges and when

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Speaker 1: were you brought to court?

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Speaker 2: The first three months we didn't even know why we

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Speaker 2: were in prison. We didn't know what the charges were.

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Speaker 2: They were quote unquote investigating, but there was nothing that

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Speaker 2: was set up. We would show up for a year,

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Speaker 2: maybe once a month. Three months in they gave us

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Speaker 2: first degree murder with the death penalty was the charge.

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Speaker 3: I've done death penalty cases in the United States and

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Speaker 3: they are the hardest cases to do with the most

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Speaker 3: amount of pressure. But still in the back of your head,

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Speaker 3: you know there's going to be appeals, there's going to

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Speaker 3: be time. Most people in the United States, actually on

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Speaker 3: death rowt die of old age before they get executed.

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Speaker 3: That is not true in the Middle East, and that

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Speaker 3: is not what Matt was facing in this case.

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Speaker 1: How did you even find out about that?

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Speaker 3: So I was contacted by a guy named Eric Voltz,

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Speaker 3: who has worked with a number of people who are

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Speaker 3: locked up overseas, and I got involved in the case

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Speaker 3: along with a team of lawyers. I got to actually

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Speaker 3: fly out to Guitar to participate in proceedings and prepare

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Speaker 3: witnesses for a trial, and it was the most surreal

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Speaker 3: legal experience I've had in my career. When you're in

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Speaker 3: a foreign environment, when you don't speak the language, there's

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Speaker 3: a whole nother layer of oppression, confusion, disorienting. I mean,

355
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Speaker 3: in Matt's case, I felt disoriented when you're sitting in

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Speaker 3: the courtroom and the trial is in Arabic and his wife,

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Speaker 3: by the way, had to be completely covered during trial

358
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Speaker 3: and weren't allowed to communicate with her. When you call

359
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,679
Speaker 3: the witness first, the judge would yell at him for

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00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,879
Speaker 3: a little while, then the prosecutor would yell at him

361
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 3: for a little while, and then you got to ask questions.

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Speaker 3: There was no real court reporting. The judge would just

363
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,399
Speaker 3: yell to a guy in the corner whenever he wanted

364
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,560
Speaker 3: something written down. I mean it is a whole another

365
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Speaker 3: level of you see how it goes so wrong, and

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Speaker 3: on top of it, you have this whole political process

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Speaker 3: going on. And it was interesting working on Matt's case

368
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,720
Speaker 3: because I'd worked on Jason Perrocal's case in Nicaragua, and

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00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 3: the problem with Jason's case was we had no relationships

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Speaker 3: with Nicaragua, so we went to Congress and no one

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Speaker 3: would help us because we have such terrible relations The

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00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 3: problem with Matt's case is we had too many relationships

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Speaker 3: with Guitar. We're shipping troops through there to Afghanistan, we

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00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,880
Speaker 3: have a military base there, and so getting assistance from

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Speaker 3: the US government was incredibly difficult. They just wanted to

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Speaker 3: kind of monitor the process and see how things went,

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00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,919
Speaker 3: and so they'd show up in court, but they weren't interceding.

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Speaker 1: So you're managing the legal battle the political angle. What

379
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: about media? Is that helpful or hurtful in a place

380
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Speaker 1: like Qatar.

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Speaker 3: You know, I work a lot with people in Latin

382
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Speaker 3: America and I literally advised them, don't make a big

383
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 3: stink out of this case until we see if we

384
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 3: can get you out of here without going through the

385
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,360
Speaker 3: political process or through the media process, because sometimes that

386
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 3: media process actually locks in their position because now it's

387
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Speaker 3: a global news story that these Americans are locked up.

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Speaker 3: And that is what happened in this case. It became

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Speaker 3: a global news story. In court, we had the BBC

390
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 3: was there, La Monde was there. The New York Times

391
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 3: wrote multiple articles about this case, and it became a

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Speaker 3: political hot potato.

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Speaker 1: So the Gatari's probably fell back in a corner and

394
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Speaker 1: they forged ahead despite the gaping holes in their theory,

395
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Speaker 1: and it took three long months to get the charges

396
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Speaker 1: and then continued on from there. Now you had the

397
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 1: legal team from the US, but you'd have to have

398
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Speaker 1: some sort of local council assisting them, right, I can't

399
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Speaker 1: even imagine what you spent on attorneys.

400
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Speaker 3: No to ask me, I mean.

401
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 2: But the other thing you have to remember is I

402
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 2: never even spoke to my attorney other than like a

403
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 2: minute or two before a court hearing, and none of

404
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 2: the inmates in fact speak to their attorneys.

405
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Speaker 3: Huh. And I'm going to choose my words carefully here

406
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 3: to avoid a lawsuit. But I had some real concerns

407
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 3: about the local representation the council that we were working with.

408
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 3: Everybody there is under pressure from the government. The government

409
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 3: has a lot of authority to make your life miserable,

410
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 3: including if you're a lawyer. And we had some real

411
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 3: challenges getting witnesses to come in and testify for fear

412
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,959
Speaker 3: of repercussions, including expert witnesses. We ended up having an

413
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 3: expert witness testify telephonically from outside the country. And yeah,

414
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 3: that's the thing I have not come across in the

415
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 3: United States that I have expert witnesses afraid to come

416
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,199
Speaker 3: and testify in a case that's against the government. But

417
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 3: that definitely was going on there.

418
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Speaker 1: So, yeah, let's talk about the trial. It was kind

419
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 1: of done piecemeal. It seems like over the course of

420
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 1: about ten months. They had the alleged autopsy with pristine organs, right,

421
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: so not an autopsy at all. Then there was this

422
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: racist police report calling black children ugly. I can't with

423
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 1: this shit. It called them ugly and went on to

424
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: imply that they therefore couldn't be worthy of adoption. Now,

425
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 1: this was an official report, which which was basically the

426
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: disgusting motive behind the entire prosecution. And then, as we

427
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 1: mentioned before, in defense, there were the actual adoption documents,

428
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: the family photos including pictures of her clear access to water,

429
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 1: when the theory was that Gloria was trafficked while being

430
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: starved and dehydrated to death for her organs. I mean,

431
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: this was the Katari's case against the lungs and their

432
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: literal lives were on the line. So what else was presented?

433
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Speaker 1: And was this a jury trial?

434
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 2: There's no juris in this country, so you know it's

435
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 2: a judge. First of all. Most of the time the

436
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 2: translator was so bad. Whatever they said did not make

437
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 2: any sense. Usually we got the last sheet of the

438
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 2: notes from the court recorder given to us later in

439
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,360
Speaker 2: the day. The woman never had any of that. And

440
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 2: in the jail there are enough inmates that speak both

441
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 2: Arabic and English to help a lice look at it

442
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 2: and say, oh, that's what happened.

443
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:57,479
Speaker 3: You know.

444
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 2: I have read some of the proceedings and I've seen

445
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 2: the case notes, and it seems like with a limited

446
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 2: translation that I had that when they brought someone in

447
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: for evidence, there would be some detective and they said,

448
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 2: we heard some other person say this, but there's no

449
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 2: opportunity cross examined. They won't even say who this person

450
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 2: that they talked to is, So that's not evidence, and

451
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 2: so after being there for about ten months and the

452
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: prosecution rest of their case, we were able to present

453
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: our case. We brought some of our friends up as witnesses.

454
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 3: As we established in court and established through experts is

455
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 3: it was factually impossible for her to have starved to death,

456
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 3: because there were witnesses that saw her running around the

457
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 3: days before she passed away. And when someone starves to death,

458
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 3: they slowly slow down and then stop moving, and then

459
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 3: they stay live for a long period of time and

460
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 3: then they pass away. So it was not only a

461
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 3: ridiculous theory on its face, it was a ridiculous theory

462
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 3: based on the facts of the case and what it

463
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,239
Speaker 3: actually happened. One of the other crazy things in this

464
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: case was kind of halfway through trial. I believe the

465
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 3: judge started looking at this stuff and went like, WHOA,

466
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 3: this guy didn't do anything. This couple did nothing, So

467
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 3: they released them on their own recognissance in the middle

468
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 3: of a death penalty trial. I believe they did that

469
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 3: because I think everybody would have been happy if Matt

470
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 3: and his wife had just fled the country and then

471
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 3: the whole political problem goes away.

472
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: But then you didn't flee the country. So were you

473
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: ever actually convicted.

474
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: We did not get our conviction till after we were

475
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: already out on our recongnaissance.

476
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 3: As I recall, there were about eight cases up for

477
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 3: results that day. They went through all the other ones

478
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 3: and the judge explained the verdict and in your case

479
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: they just said three years and that was it. And

480
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 3: there was no real ruling or explanation, because you know,

481
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 3: how did a death penalty case become a three year case?

482
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 3: And what's the foundation for that conviction?

483
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: But they didn't say three years in English? So did

484
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: you realize what had happened at the time that had happened?

485
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: They were just going off and reading all these things

486
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: in Arabic and I had no clue what was going on.

487
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 2: At some point they excused everyone and our team pulled

488
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 2: us out, and I said, okay, so what did they

489
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: what happened? What did they say, like in the hallway

490
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: or something they told us in the hallway.

491
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: We told you were senden to three years.

492
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 2: The first thing they said is we're not quite sure

493
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 2: what happened.

494
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: Uh, that's comforting. You're like maybe death, maybe life, maybe

495
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: three years, maybe nothing, Maybe you're free.

496
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, And I said well, what did they

497
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: convict us of? The manslaughter? They're like, uh, we don't know.

498
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you could laugh about this now, Matt.

499
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: They just gave you three years without explaining what it was. Yeah.

500
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: Oh, I was not in good shape at that point,

501
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 2: and I mean I remember being just so frustrated and

502
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: so angry and just feeling completely hopeless, you know, because

503
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, what happens now? Are they spying on us?

504
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: Are they gonna arrest me in a minute? You know,

505
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: in many ways, I was reicidal, and I remembered like saying, Okay,

506
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna go jump on the golf and try

507
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: to swim away. They convicted us with a sentence of

508
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: three years, but they did not even tell us what

509
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: we are convicted of. And in Qatar there is double jeopardy.

510
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 2: So we appealed our conviction, and the prosecution appealed their conviction.

511
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: So you end up with this three year says what

512
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 1: does that look like? Did you end up having to

513
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: serve the three years? What was what happens after that?

514
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: Did they take you away in handcuffs?

515
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 2: So basically, the attorney filed some paperwork requesting that we

516
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 2: would not be reincarcerated at that point, So we went

517
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 2: to appeals court or the equivalent of appeals court, and

518
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 2: the prosecution again requested the death penalty, and we went

519
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 2: through the whole thing again.

520
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 3: At that point, as I recalled, the US government did

521
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 3: get more involved. The Department of State issued a statement

522
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 3: saying that they were extremely disappointed in the Qatari judicial

523
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 3: system and this result, and I remember it's Secretary of

524
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 3: State getting involved.

525
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: And so you go back for the appeals and what

526
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: happens in the second trial.

527
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 2: So at the end we were acquitted, the prosecution having

528
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: the option to appeal again to the Supreme Court.

529
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: What do you attribute the acquittal too, because presumably they

530
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 1: were presenting the same nonsense that they were presenting before.

531
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: What do you think happened to change it? They were innocent,

532
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: and yeah, that's intin a lot of people are. It

533
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: doesn't but.

534
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 3: Well, exactly a lot of people are innocent. I think

535
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: this goes back to what I was saying earlier is

536
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 3: what we do see in cases is sometimes a police

537
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 3: officer jumps the gun, and in the United States, as

538
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 3: you and I both know very well, sometimes that does

539
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: lead in a wrongful conviction. But a lot of times

540
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 3: what happens in the United States is one idiot cop

541
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: does something stupid, but it goes to court and gets dismissed.

542
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: There's lawyers that come in, everything's checked out. There's prosecutors

543
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: that actually do dismiss cases in this country. And I

544
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 3: think a lot of times overseas, and particularly what I

545
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: believe happened in Matt's case is once they went down

546
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 3: the pike on this case, it just keeps going, and

547
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 3: I think that the politics get involved in it, and

548
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 3: you're like, whoa, you arrested American couple and charge them

549
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: with murder, Like what's going on here? And now it

550
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 3: becomes sort of a cover up for all the bad

551
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 3: stuff that's happened because I believe the judge believed they

552
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 3: were innocent by releasing them on their own recognissance, and

553
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: then the judge doesn't convictim of murder and sentenced them

554
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 3: to death instead sentence them to three years. I'm talking

555
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 3: about again, another little cover up of like we got

556
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: a convict him of something, because we've gone through this

557
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: whole charade, and now at some point that charade got

558
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 3: broken through via I believe the political process involving the

559
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: United States the Court of Appeal, but at some point

560
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: the breaks got put on and they said, okay, let's

561
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 3: just end this thing.

562
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,479
Speaker 1: So finally you're acquitted. Now, how much time has elapsed

563
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: since this terrible incident where your daughter passed away?

564
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: Twenty three months?

565
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: Twenty three months and now you're acquitted, but they can

566
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: still try you again. So did you leave the courtroom

567
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: and go directly to the airport? That's what I would

568
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: have done.

569
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: Maybe we had the meal or something, but you know,

570
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, and we scanned our passports and they

571
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: would not let us go through.

572
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: Huh.

573
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: I should mention that we had the US ambassador walking

574
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: us through security.

575
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 3: Well that's the point where the US government got involved

576
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 3: to get them out of the country and they came home.

577
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 3: There's actually a beautiful video I don't know if Matt

578
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 3: knows this that's online to your reunion with your kids.

579
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: They'd been apart from their kids for all that time.

580
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 3: Really really super tragic. One thing that came full circle

581
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 3: though this was ten years ago. Matt's son actually interned

582
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 3: at the California Innocence Projects summer as a college student. Wow.

583
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: That's fantastic. Yeah, just amazing kids. The sweetest kids. That

584
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 3: to me was the most heartbreaking part of the case.

585
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: Well, Matt, you must be very proud of and I'm

586
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: sure this experience, it must have facted as a catalyst

587
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: for the interest in reforming our criminal legal system as

588
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: we have so many of our own problems in the US.

589
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: Now at this point, is there anything that you'd like

590
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: to ask of our audience or any hope to have

591
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: for positive change in the world.

592
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: I wish there were a way to expand this innocent

593
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: movement to certain other places in the world because there

594
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: is so much going on in other places. I am

595
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: very grateful for all the folks in the US that

596
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: do this, but it's needed not just here but everywhere

597
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 2: else too.

598
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 3: I certainly second that, my friend. That's what that's really

599
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 3: where I've shifted my work is to Latin America.

600
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: We now have.

601
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 3: Thirty innocence organizations down there that I helped get started.

602
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 3: And yeah, we're in the nineteen eighties. In Latin America,

603
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 3: there hasn't been DNA testing, there's no preservation of evidence.

604
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 3: There's much worse. Trained lawyers, trained judges. It has become

605
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 3: a global movement, but it's still very Anglo We've got

606
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 3: projects in the UK, we've got a handful in Europe,

607
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 3: we've got a couple in Asia, We're in New Zealand, Australia, US, Canada.

608
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 3: So it's still a very Anglo movement by and large,

609
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: and so we have a lot of work to do.

610
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 3: This should be truly a global, multi language, multicultural movement

611
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: because there's no such thing as a perfect criminal legal system.

612
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 3: They all need help.

613
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: Amen to that. And you've written a book about your

614
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: work and the very real danger that we all face.

615
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: It's called you might go to prison even though you're innocent.

616
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it and we're going to have it

617
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: linked in the BIOT. And now that brings us to

618
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: closing arguments, where I first thank you both for sharing

619
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: this very moving story, and then I'm just gonna turn

620
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: off my microphone, kick back in my chair with my

621
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: headphones on, and close my eyes and just listen to

622
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: anything else that you feel is left to be said.

623
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: So let's start with Justin and close it out with you, Matt.

624
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: As you know, Jason, I've been lucky to be part

625
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 3: of forty exonerations and this case has really stuck, and

626
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: it's stuck with me so much that I've got a

627
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: section of the book about this case. I think it

628
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 3: is very powerful when you've spent your career working in

629
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: one system to go into another system, and it really

630
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 3: burns indelibly in my mind that experience and that, however

631
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 3: many failings there are in our criminal legal system, and

632
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 3: I know there are many, there still are worse systems

633
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: in the world, and unfortunately Matt and his wife and

634
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 3: his family stumbled into one when they just did what

635
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,479
Speaker 3: a lot of people would do in life. Get an

636
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 3: opportunity to work overseas, have a great job, take your family,

637
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: and it turned into this nightmare. So I think there's

638
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 3: a lot to learn from this case, and I'm so

639
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: glad that that, Matt, you had the courage today to

640
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: talk about it. So thank you for that.

641
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on the show. You know,

642
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: it's been a while since I've had a chance to share,

643
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: and it's just nice to be able to kind of

644
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: reflect on the good things and the bad things, and

645
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 2: you know, at this point we're doing well. Life has

646
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 2: not been perfect. But one thing I've struggled with through

647
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: this is some mental health struggles. Want to encourage people

648
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 2: who have been in our shoes going through hard times,

649
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: get help, reach out.

650
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 3: You know.

651
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: Our church of both in Qatar and in la and afterwards,

652
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 2: have just been so wonderful. When we were in prison,

653
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: I saw the way that they came around us to

654
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 2: support us financially, taking care of physical needs, and we

655
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: were just totally blessed by that, and I just wanted

656
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: to say thank you to all those who have helped.

657
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: And I would say I still have a desire to travel,

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Speaker 2: but maybe not back to Qatar, you know, because I

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Speaker 2: do reckon recognize that there is a lot to be

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Speaker 2: learned from the world around us and how different people

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Speaker 2: are and how different people live, because there are so

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Speaker 2: many things that people do differently that can help encourage

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Speaker 2: and improve our own lives. Unfortunately, I think we also

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Speaker 2: see through our case the bad.

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Speaker 1: Sides of that too.

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Speaker 2: At the end, I'm just grateful to God and to

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Speaker 2: those who have supported us that we were able to

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Speaker 2: get through this and continue on.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

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00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

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00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor Hall,

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Speaker 1: Annie Chelsea, and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow

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Speaker 1: executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis, and Jeff Cliburn. The

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Speaker 1: music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR

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00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across

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Speaker 1: all social media plaslatforms at Lava for Good and at

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram at

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Speaker 1: It's Jason Vlahm. Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava

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Speaker 1: for Good podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one