Speaker 1: Narcissists are all about winning, which is why divorcing a
Speaker 1: narcissist can feel impossible. On this episode of Navigating Narcissism,
Speaker 1: I've invited top divorce attorney Demitria Graves to break down
Speaker 1: this unfortunate and unique art of war. Unlike Demetria, many
Speaker 1: attorneys don't understand the intricacies of dealing with narcissism in
Speaker 1: a divorce, like the fact that it's not uncommon for
Speaker 1: these proceedings to last longer than the marriages themselves. In
Speaker 1: this eye opening conversation, she reveals her pre divorced checklist,
Speaker 1: debunks divorce myths and warrens of common mistakes. This is
Speaker 1: a must listen for anyone divorcing a narcissist, thinking of
Speaker 1: divorcing a narcissist, or even thinking about getting married period.
Speaker 1: After all, the best way to learn how to make
Speaker 1: it work is from an attorney who spent her career
Speaker 1: handling the pitfalls and the landscape of narcissistic marriage and divorce.
Speaker 1: If you don't want to go through a grueling experience
Speaker 1: of getting out, pay attention to how you come in.
Speaker 1: This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
Speaker 1: medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
Speaker 1: independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
Speaker 1: professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
Speaker 1: or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. The
Speaker 1: views and opinions expressed are solely those of the podcast
Speaker 1: author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not
Speaker 1: represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or
Speaker 1: their employees. So, Dmitria, I am so happy to have
Speaker 1: you here. Thank you for taking time out of your
Speaker 1: busy schedule, intention for inviting me, dmit you there coming
Speaker 1: on the show is so important and so compelling. Is
Speaker 1: that in my own practice working with survivors of narcissistic abuse,
Speaker 1: the issue of divorces, you can imagine, is one of
Speaker 1: the primary issues I'm dealing with. It's either people who
Speaker 1: are in unhealthy marriages and are thinking of dissolving the marriage,
Speaker 1: people who are just coming out making a decision do
Speaker 1: I don't tie, and then the people who are already
Speaker 1: in the divorce process. You practice in California, I do.
Speaker 1: And each state is different in terms of how they
Speaker 1: address family law. So the guidance you're going to hear
Speaker 1: today is from an attorney who does practice in California.
Speaker 1: While some of this may generalize, it's absolutely critical that
Speaker 1: anyone listening today's episode seeks out counsel and whatever region
Speaker 1: that you live in, state, province, nation, whatever. So, Dimitria,
Speaker 1: if you were to put together a pre divorced checklist
Speaker 1: for someone who is about to commence a divorce from
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person, what are the things that you would recommend?
Speaker 1: So Number one that I tell my clients gloves are off,
Speaker 1: meaning the narcissistic partner is going to do whatever they can,
Speaker 1: say whatever they want to win. So if they can
Speaker 1: use your mental health, they're going to do that. If
Speaker 1: they can disclose your intimate details of your relationship, they're
Speaker 1: going to do that. If there can align with your children,
Speaker 1: they're going to do that. So nothing that's going to
Speaker 1: be quote unquote fair and it's not going to be amicable.
Speaker 1: So you have to prepare for that that all gloves
Speaker 1: are off. Anything you shared with your partner, you might
Speaker 1: hear it in court. So you have to be prepared
Speaker 1: that they're going to say whatever, do whatever because they
Speaker 1: want to win. Demitri, how do you prepare people for that,
Speaker 1: because that's a lot like what you just said is
Speaker 1: not that's not just some little thing off a to
Speaker 1: do list, right, that's actually almost changing a worldview. Right.
Speaker 1: How do you prepare your clients at that? It's really
Speaker 1: hard to do because I've had clients that are attorneys,
Speaker 1: that are therapists that work in the court and had
Speaker 1: to deal with, oh my god, all of my personal
Speaker 1: information is out right, So we have to spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time understanding, Okay, this is going to happen,
Speaker 1: how are you going to cope? Because unfortunately, I'm licensed
Speaker 1: as an attorney, I'm not licensed as a therapist or
Speaker 1: to help others kind of deal with the emotional trappings
Speaker 1: of their divorce. So I always recommend, especially with narcissistic abusers,
Speaker 1: that you have someone a coach, a therapist, or someone
Speaker 1: that can help you through your divorce, especially during those
Speaker 1: times when you're reading the intimate details of your life
Speaker 1: and intimate details that you thought would only be shared
Speaker 1: with your partner and it's being used against you. So
Speaker 1: the first step of this predivorced checklist is like, be
Speaker 1: prepared that the gloves are coming off. The gloves are off,
Speaker 1: are off, not coming off. Okay, what would you say,
Speaker 1: is are some of the other items on this predivorce
Speaker 1: checklist your finances? The narcissistic divorce will cost three to
Speaker 1: four times then the average divorce. I've had clients that
Speaker 1: were married five years or less spend one hundred thousand
Speaker 1: dollars on a divorce and counting, that's twenty thousand dollars
Speaker 1: a year for the marriage. Put that in an investment,
Speaker 1: you got a better yield on that. Right. It is
Speaker 1: very expensive because the narcissistic partner wants to win, so
Speaker 1: they're going to file every motion, They're going to do
Speaker 1: all the things to win. So you can have a
Speaker 1: five year marriage but spend six years in your divorce.
Speaker 1: I have so many other questions on that. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: keep going on your checklist, and I'm gonna go back
Speaker 1: and ask my questions. What else would you put on
Speaker 1: this checklist? You have to be careful if you're residing
Speaker 1: in the residence at the time of your divorce, right
Speaker 1: because then a lot of narcissists know how to bait
Speaker 1: you to start making the case for the divorce. And
Speaker 1: in California, a restraining order is tied to who gets custody.
Speaker 1: So I've seen where a narcissist partner will try to
Speaker 1: get the other partner to hit them or to have
Speaker 1: these verbal disputes with them to attempt to get a
Speaker 1: restraining order, because if there's a restraining order, then the
Speaker 1: partner has to leave, not the abuser. Oh, I see.
Speaker 1: So you're talking about situations where people are starting the
Speaker 1: divorce process but they're still both occupying the marital residence, right,
Speaker 1: which is not uncommon in California. It's because it costs
Speaker 1: a million dollars the limb. I can tell you as
Speaker 1: a psychologist where I have worked with couples where there's
Speaker 1: a narcissistic abuse a situation and they don't both leave
Speaker 1: the residence. I think that the psychological harm is ten
Speaker 1: times worse. Right, And a lot of people still believe,
Speaker 1: even though they've experienced the abuse, that there's no way
Speaker 1: they will do that to me. There's no way they
Speaker 1: would kick me out of the residence. And I'm here
Speaker 1: to tell you they do and they will because it's
Speaker 1: all about winning. And then I think it's very important,
Speaker 1: in addition to having a therapist, to have a support system. Right,
Speaker 1: everyone won't understand what you're going through. But again, your
Speaker 1: attorney is only equipped to deal with the business of
Speaker 1: your divorce. Despite what we tell you, we are not
Speaker 1: equipped to deal with the emotional aspects of what you're
Speaker 1: going through. And quite honestly, you don't want to pay
Speaker 1: us to deal with the emotional that for a fact.
Speaker 1: That's just the practical check the checklist, right. The legal
Speaker 1: part of this is you have to be prepared that
Speaker 1: narcissists tend to hire narcissistic attorneys, Okay, talk more about that.
Speaker 1: They choose people that will harass you and your attorney,
Speaker 1: that write letters, emails seven pages, ten pages, can be
Speaker 1: every day or every other day, extremely condescending and make
Speaker 1: you feel like, oh wow, did that happen or did
Speaker 1: I say that? Or is this really happening? And so
Speaker 1: that is something to prepare for. And if I had
Speaker 1: to learn myself how to disengage, how to maneuver a
Speaker 1: narcissistic attorney, that was a new phenomenon for me. But
Speaker 1: it is very, very real and it is very dangerous. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna ask you a sort of a procedural question,
Speaker 1: since they probably don't have all sit on one website,
Speaker 1: narcissistic attorneys for family law, Like, there's not one place
Speaker 1: you can find these people. How do they find them?
Speaker 1: Did they just interview them and say, oh, you seem
Speaker 1: like a jerk, I'm hiring you? Or is a reputation?
Speaker 1: I think it's like attracts like right, yeah, I guess so. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Tend to go to the people who you're most familiar
Speaker 1: with and who feels good to you. It feels gad,
Speaker 1: you're right. So if you're a narcissistic and you go
Speaker 1: to someone and they say I'm not doing that or
Speaker 1: I don't believe in that, or no, we're not going
Speaker 1: to do that, you're not going to go with that
Speaker 1: person because you want to win and you want to
Speaker 1: control the show. So if you can't do that that,
Speaker 1: you're not going to select that attorney. Okay, I got
Speaker 1: that that. Let's say there's two people in a divorce
Speaker 1: and the narcissistic person picks up the phone and inquires
Speaker 1: about retaining five or six top divorce attorneys. Right are
Speaker 1: those people then? Now? Yet, Well, it depends on how
Speaker 1: much information is shared. If you just call and make
Speaker 1: an appointment, then no, you didn't share anything that was
Speaker 1: important to the case. If you call and pay a
Speaker 1: retainer fee to speak to the attorney, and you speak
Speaker 1: for an hour on your case, then it's likely that
Speaker 1: that attorney can be disqualified. And if you pay a
Speaker 1: bigger retainer, yes, then the attorney you'll probably be disqualified.
Speaker 1: Is that a thing that ever happens? That a person
Speaker 1: who actually is not going to retain X or Y
Speaker 1: attorney but wants them not to be retainable as it were,
Speaker 1: by the let's call them the non narcissistant partner the
Speaker 1: other person. Have you seen that happen? Yes, especially in
Speaker 1: small cities because you know, you know who the quote
Speaker 1: unquote top attorneys are. So if I disqualify all, let's
Speaker 1: say ten attorneys, you have to start going out to
Speaker 1: different places to people that are less experienced in those cities.
Speaker 1: So that's yes, it is a thing. Okay, all right?
Speaker 1: Anything else on this checklist? Oh? Yes, most definitely. And
Speaker 1: we talked about the cost. It's going to take probably
Speaker 1: double the time is well, there are many cases. There's
Speaker 1: two I have right now, both married less than five years,
Speaker 1: and their divorces are set to go beyond the time
Speaker 1: they were married. And so my clients get frustrated and Dmitria,
Speaker 1: can we just offer them X amount of dollars to
Speaker 1: go away? But you know, like I know, it's not
Speaker 1: about the money. It's about the control. It's about the
Speaker 1: grandstanding in court and wherever else. So a lot of
Speaker 1: times they don't want the money. They want to keep
Speaker 1: trying to ruin financially and otherwise the other party. It's
Speaker 1: about the game, right, right, I mean, that's really what
Speaker 1: it is. They'll game the system, draw it out, expensive appeals,
Speaker 1: delay on discovery, providing documents and all of that. But
Speaker 1: then one day they find their new person that they
Speaker 1: want to marry. Ever, oh so quickly they split up
Speaker 1: on paper. They push it, we gotta we gotta hurry up.
Speaker 1: We got hurry up, we gotta her. Aren't you the
Speaker 1: person who took four months to come up with one years?
Speaker 1: Four years? Right? And so it's really what it is.
Speaker 1: It's like you said, it's they have to be in
Speaker 1: control of the whole process. It's not necessarily that they
Speaker 1: draw it out. Sometimes they really try to rush it
Speaker 1: right so quickly that the other person can't even get
Speaker 1: their feet under them because they want to quickly get
Speaker 1: Usually it's remarried in my experience, and that takes me
Speaker 1: to the idea of bifurcation. Yes, right and so, and
Speaker 1: bifurcation to me has always code for the narcissistic person
Speaker 1: wants to get married right right after they've made this
Speaker 1: other persons like miserable for three years. And then if
Speaker 1: you could just explain for our listeners what bifurcation is
Speaker 1: so they understand what that con that's just a fancy
Speaker 1: way of saying that we're going to get divorced on
Speaker 1: paper and we're going to handle the issues of our
Speaker 1: divorce later, meaning we're going to handle custody and vegetation,
Speaker 1: division of assets, and debts. We're going to save that
Speaker 1: for a later date. And you know that always works out. Really,
Speaker 1: so when when the bifurcation is done, it's signed, those
Speaker 1: people are then legally single. They can go enter into
Speaker 1: the contract of the marriage is done, even though all
Speaker 1: the other stuff's going on. That's correct, Yeah, because when
Speaker 1: I've seen that happen, it was a rush for them
Speaker 1: to get into their new and new relationship, new marriage,
Speaker 1: big white wedding, the whole nine yards and there's this
Speaker 1: whole big mess. It's like people are coming over for
Speaker 1: dinner and you throw all the stuff in the closet,
Speaker 1: like you know, the closet still all right, So let's
Speaker 1: keep checklisting. What else do you have? Your attorney? You
Speaker 1: have to pick an attorney that is aware of what's
Speaker 1: going on or is stern enough to stand up to
Speaker 1: the narcissistic attorney, because they will be condescending. They will
Speaker 1: drive you crazy, and you have to learn how to
Speaker 1: draw the line because your client is kind of watching
Speaker 1: you as well, so you want to be sure that
Speaker 1: you're not engaging in that. That is something I had
Speaker 1: to learn because it is so easy when you're constantly
Speaker 1: attacked to want to attack back. But that's exactly what
Speaker 1: they want. How did you get good at this? Because
Speaker 1: I don't imagine that there's a law school class called
Speaker 1: how to practice family Law against a narcissistic opposing counsel.
Speaker 1: It was trial by fire because I found myself, you know,
Speaker 1: typing away my email. They will type email, I will
Speaker 1: type an email, and I said, what am I doing?
Speaker 1: I'm costing my client a lot of money And this
Speaker 1: is exactly what they want you to do, is getting
Speaker 1: trapped with whatever their issues are. But when I started
Speaker 1: saying okay, thank you, I have your email, Thank you
Speaker 1: very much. It stopped interesting. It was there one case
Speaker 1: and you realize that you almost had to sort of
Speaker 1: take a very different tack going forward because you learned
Speaker 1: so much about narcissism and narcissistic abuse in one case. Yes,
Speaker 1: it was a case that is still going, but it
Speaker 1: was still every day. As you know, miss Graves, I'm
Speaker 1: what we call a certified family law specialist. So she
Speaker 1: would always say, well, as a certified family law specialist,
Speaker 1: you should know X y Z. So it was constant,
Speaker 1: jab very passive aggressive. So I had to get to
Speaker 1: the point where I say, well, what is more important
Speaker 1: fighting with this person are getting our client to the
Speaker 1: finish line. It is not easy. I will not sit
Speaker 1: here now you it is easy. It is not, especially
Speaker 1: with my personality. I want to fight back. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I had to be the bigger person and it's better
Speaker 1: for my client. But it's challenging. You're having to do
Speaker 1: what I tell clients to do with narcissists all the time,
Speaker 1: which is don't engage, right, that's it. Don't engage. If
Speaker 1: people don't like that though, like this person is talking
Speaker 1: nonsense about me, like and I said, I understand that.
Speaker 1: And in your case, it's even more interesting because of
Speaker 1: your fudiciary responsibility that you do have to protect your
Speaker 1: client financial You're not just supposed to sort of run
Speaker 1: the meter, you know, constantly, because if you did answer
Speaker 1: all of those emails, it would be any dry. But
Speaker 1: not only that, our clients are watching us, right, So
Speaker 1: if I'm getting upset and I'm getting emotional, then my
Speaker 1: client's going to get upset and emotional. So it's not easy,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times I spend time with my
Speaker 1: client because sometimes they want to know, well, why are
Speaker 1: we fighting back and should we be doing this? And
Speaker 1: I have to have the conversation. No, the more we
Speaker 1: engage age, the more it's going to cost. And it's
Speaker 1: not kidding us anywhere. What Dimitria learned early in her
Speaker 1: career is a classic tactic that works with any narcissist
Speaker 1: in any scenario. It's called gray rocking. Essentially, acting like
Speaker 1: a boring gray rock when interacting, you respond with brief,
Speaker 1: disengaged answers. In time, the narcissist realizes that you're not
Speaker 1: going to engage, and then they will back off. Did
Speaker 1: you know about narcissism? Before you became a family law
Speaker 1: attorney and before you started practicing independently, No, you did not,
Speaker 1: So this is where you learned it. In doing it,
Speaker 1: A lot of times you're like, well, is this narcissism
Speaker 1: or is this person just controlling? So you do have
Speaker 1: to go and do your own research, and you do
Speaker 1: have to go and start studying and learning. And I
Speaker 1: think that's what a lot of other attorneys do that
Speaker 1: haven't had this experience, and some judges right, because we
Speaker 1: do use narcissism a lot. Now it's more discussed than before. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and if you don't enlighten yourself, it's hard to really
Speaker 1: take serious and know the signs and know how to
Speaker 1: engage in the process. One thing I'd say to that, though, Dmitria,
Speaker 1: is that it's almost less important to get the narcissism
Speaker 1: part right. It's not your job to be a personality
Speaker 1: assessment expert, right, right. But you know, it would be
Speaker 1: very rare to have someone who was harmfully controlling, but
Speaker 1: then it was also really empathic and nice, right, Like
Speaker 1: those things don't tend to co locate that that very
Speaker 1: harmfully controlling person might also be coercive, is very likely
Speaker 1: to be unempathic, it's very likely to be entitled, you know,
Speaker 1: is very likely to be validation seeking, and on and
Speaker 1: on and on. So this stuff kind of hangs together, right,
Speaker 1: and that hanging togetherness means it's the one thing I've
Speaker 1: always had a concern about is whether attorneys or even
Speaker 1: family court judges are getting too lost in the weeds
Speaker 1: of all is this a narcissist? Forget it, Let's write
Speaker 1: down the patterns that are concerning when they're done. If
Speaker 1: I were to look at the list, I'm like, probably,
Speaker 1: you know, but I think that it's going to be
Speaker 1: very rare for there to be a friendly, controlling person,
Speaker 1: right right. So I think that that's the other thing
Speaker 1: to almost lift that pressure off of all attorneys to say,
Speaker 1: you have to be able to make that call. But
Speaker 1: what you're looking for is consistency, right right. This is
Speaker 1: not just someone whose heart is broken and on the
Speaker 1: first day is saying like, darn you, you're not going
Speaker 1: to do this to me. And then they're like, all right,
Speaker 1: she's not into me anymore. I just gotta you know,
Speaker 1: all right, and you know what I'm saying. There could
Speaker 1: be that initial moment, but that's not what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: I was talking about things that are going on for
Speaker 1: years and years and years, and again it feels like
Speaker 1: they've taken a system and turned it into a game. Right,
Speaker 1: keep giving me that checklist if we hit it all
Speaker 1: its or anything else you want to add to that.
Speaker 1: The children aspect, Okay, that's the biggest one, right, attempt
Speaker 1: to align the children with their agenda, and what they
Speaker 1: tend to do is buy toys, by iPhones, by PlayStations
Speaker 1: and cry. I've seen the crying at and how can
Speaker 1: mom do this to us? Mom is breaking up, breaking
Speaker 1: up our family. We're going to have to move. Mom's
Speaker 1: taking away your house and children. That is very, very
Speaker 1: hard because children do not want to be in the middle.
Speaker 1: If you're buying them all these toys and constantly talking
Speaker 1: bad about the other parents, it's very confusing. Do you
Speaker 1: then prepare them and say this is going to be yes,
Speaker 1: everything I'm talking to you about. We sit and have
Speaker 1: these conversations. And so the intake process with someone that
Speaker 1: is experiencing narcissistic abuse is way longer than any other
Speaker 1: process because it's way more factors to consider, and I
Speaker 1: think it's important you have to look at the practical
Speaker 1: side of things and the legal side of things, because
Speaker 1: I'm not there with you when you when you're at
Speaker 1: home or when you're getting your finances together and all
Speaker 1: these other things that are extremely important, but also the
Speaker 1: legal aspects and making sure you hire the right attorney
Speaker 1: for the situation that's going to deal with all of
Speaker 1: these aspects. And then the last thing on my checklist
Speaker 1: is over litigation. The case is going to be overly litigated.
Speaker 1: I have a case right now. We're in court at
Speaker 1: least once a month. I get two to three different motions.
Speaker 1: A lot of times I don't even know what the
Speaker 1: motion is and we're in front of the court, and
Speaker 1: what's shifting in this particular case. I think the court
Speaker 1: is on to the narcissistic partner. And so when that
Speaker 1: happens and we know, things start to shift, but it
Speaker 1: took us three years to get there. And what happens
Speaker 1: in family court also, judges change a lot, So a
Speaker 1: judge can be onto the narcissistic partner, but then they leave,
Speaker 1: and so we're starting all over. And listen, what I've
Speaker 1: been told by clients, and not just in California, is
Speaker 1: that it was luck like if you got the judge
Speaker 1: who understood narcissism, there was going to be a more
Speaker 1: reason judgment. But if you got a judge who didn't
Speaker 1: get narcissism, the judgment almost felt sadistic. Even though it
Speaker 1: might have literally followed the family law code, it followed
Speaker 1: it to the tea. There was absolutely no recognition of
Speaker 1: the game that was being played in their courtroom. The
Speaker 1: overly litigated pieces from my psychologists chair and these narcissistic divorces.
Speaker 1: Is it's not just the cost, it's not just a headache.
Speaker 1: It's actually the trauma. Yes, because I find that my
Speaker 1: clients will say, I'm having nightmares, I can't sit still,
Speaker 1: i am constantly ruminating, I am not in my life.
Speaker 1: My body is falling apart. I'm afraid to look at
Speaker 1: my inbox. Yes, and so those sorts of things, the
Speaker 1: phone pings, they jump, phone rings, they jump the email
Speaker 1: to the point where some folks were saying I was
Speaker 1: not being good about checking my email, running into some
Speaker 1: issues at work because it was that stressful. And it's
Speaker 1: not just about the overlitigation, as like now I have
Speaker 1: to show up to court again. It's a twenty four
Speaker 1: seven issue that does tremendous harm to people who are
Speaker 1: going through these divorce processes. You have this checklist, it's great.
Speaker 1: I would say the biggest takeaway from your list to
Speaker 1: me is you have to shift your expectations. Yes, right, yes,
Speaker 1: and so that's a big one. Yes. And you keep
Speaker 1: coming to this point because it seems like what a
Speaker 1: person needs is a really informed guide through this process.
Speaker 1: I have often told any client who comes to me
Speaker 1: going through a narcissistic divorce, I said, you have to
Speaker 1: retain an attorney. You are not doing this online right,
Speaker 1: This is not going to be simple. How do you
Speaker 1: recommend that a person choose an attorney if they're going
Speaker 1: through a narcissistic divorce. I think it's important to have
Speaker 1: your own checklist for your attorney. You have you worked
Speaker 1: with any cases that had a narcissistic person on any side?
Speaker 1: What is your approach to the dissolution? And if they're
Speaker 1: over talking you or not addressing the issues, they probably
Speaker 1: do not have the experience. Are they say things like oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know about if I don't believe in narcissism
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, it is not the attorney
Speaker 1: for you. Or if it's someone that's a little more passive,
Speaker 1: you know, a little more kumbaya. It's not going to work.
Speaker 1: It's not going to work for you, and then you
Speaker 1: do have to follow your intuition. A lot of times
Speaker 1: we have a bad habit of not listening to our intuition,
Speaker 1: especially in situations like that. I think that's just as
Speaker 1: important as the attorney checklist. I'm so glad you brought
Speaker 1: that up because I cannot tell you, Demitria, the number
Speaker 1: of people who when they were meeting with attorneys and
Speaker 1: they'd say, listen, am I soon to be access narcissistic.
Speaker 1: I'm really worried about how this is going to unfold.
Speaker 1: And we're told by the attorney everybody says their ax
Speaker 1: is narcissistic ye, which to me is actually a version
Speaker 1: of gaslighting clients. Right, it's completely minimizing their experience, and
Speaker 1: it's dangerous because what that does so that client is saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I guess you're right, everyone going through divorce since that
Speaker 1: person was just rotten and that's why they're leaving. And
Speaker 1: so maybe none of this is even you know, maybe
Speaker 1: that's the wrong word, and you're right. They could get
Speaker 1: into that wrong attorney and I'm so glad you as
Speaker 1: an attorney or saying this if they are not listening
Speaker 1: to what you're saying. I've heard this dozens and dozens
Speaker 1: of times. The worst hardest cases are the folks who
Speaker 1: come to me who are already four to six months
Speaker 1: into the divorce process. They're shredded and they're stuck with
Speaker 1: this attorney. And a lot of times I almost say
Speaker 1: people can get trauma bonded to their divorce attorneys just
Speaker 1: they were trauma bonded in that relationship. They're working really hard,
Speaker 1: they are trying for me. We're this far down the path. Justify, justify, justify,
Speaker 1: which is what happened in the relationship. And I'll say,
Speaker 1: this person is acting in your service. And I understand
Speaker 1: you don't want to throw more money at this problem
Speaker 1: with a new attorney, but this could end up going
Speaker 1: really badly. And what are the biggest mistakes people make
Speaker 1: when they come in they start the process of a
Speaker 1: narcissistic divorce that you've seen. They engage from the get go.
Speaker 1: They're in the house, they're fighting, they're fighting in front
Speaker 1: of the children. They engage from the start, and that
Speaker 1: really sets them behind the eight ball because the narcissistic
Speaker 1: abusers already planning what they're going to do in divorce.
Speaker 1: They're probably recording you. They probably have your on camera
Speaker 1: doing things that you're not supposed to do. That's the
Speaker 1: number one thing. Oh I'm not I have worked with clients.
Speaker 1: I mean, it just becomes the war of the cameras
Speaker 1: and the recording devices. And I understand it like from
Speaker 1: the position of the non narcissistic person. They've said sometimes
Speaker 1: these cameras have been a game changer because I've actually
Speaker 1: taken the footage and showed it to my attorney and said,
Speaker 1: this is what we're dealing with. But on the same breath,
Speaker 1: I've had to tell non narcissistic folks going through divorce,
Speaker 1: you might need to hire someone to sweep this house.
Speaker 1: Probably fifty percent of the time they found something. My
Speaker 1: conversation with Demetria will continue after this break. I'm sure
Speaker 1: they have. The other mistake I've seen is not having
Speaker 1: a plan. These types of cases require a plan. How
Speaker 1: are we going to address this case? Are we going
Speaker 1: to allow the other person to file first, which I
Speaker 1: say yes, because it gives them the illusion that they're
Speaker 1: in control and they get to set the stage. So
Speaker 1: you need a plan for these cases. It's not like
Speaker 1: the typical divorce where Okay, you file, I file, we
Speaker 1: go about our happy way. You need a plan, okay.
Speaker 1: So basically the mistake is coming in without a plan, right,
Speaker 1: continuing to engage right, and then having the wrong attorney.
Speaker 1: I would love to share with you what I have
Speaker 1: seen what I thought were mistakes, but I'm not an attorney, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: and I'd love to hear what your take is on
Speaker 1: some of these Some of the mistakes I've seen is
Speaker 1: people having a very unrealistic view of what's going to
Speaker 1: happen in the family court system. The biggest being, well,
Speaker 1: people are going to see that I'm I'm a really
Speaker 1: devoted parent and they're sort of terrible and mean, and
Speaker 1: if I show them all the mean emails, well, they're
Speaker 1: not going to give them any custody. Right, wrong, so wrong? Right.
Speaker 1: Remember working once years ago with a family, and this
Speaker 1: was like one of those really happy families too, like
Speaker 1: everyone's loving each other and getting along, and the parents
Speaker 1: had been married like a million years and everyone was happy.
Speaker 1: Daughters going through a narcissistic divorce and the family's like, well,
Speaker 1: they're going to see he's terrible and he's had affairs
Speaker 1: and he screams at the children. They're going to give
Speaker 1: you all the custody of the kids, and we're going
Speaker 1: to help you, and we're going to move next door
Speaker 1: to you. And they had it all figured out until
Speaker 1: the process began and he started fighting for fifty percent custody.
Speaker 1: Would you know, of course he got it because yelling
Speaker 1: at your wife or having an affair are not in
Speaker 1: most states of grounds, not certainly not in California to
Speaker 1: not have custody. This family was shattered. They said, we
Speaker 1: had no idea, so they literally didn't know how the
Speaker 1: system works, right, And is that would you say that
Speaker 1: that's a mistake. I think that's not having an adequate
Speaker 1: conversation with your lawyers, because your lawyers should tell you.
Speaker 1: In California, there is a really big push to half
Speaker 1: fifty fifty curry. And then on top of that, with
Speaker 1: a lot of attorneys and a lot of judges not
Speaker 1: being aware of narcissism, they're not looking into it that way.
Speaker 1: They're saying, how far do you live from each other?
Speaker 1: Are the kids? Okayft fifty custody? Right? So there has
Speaker 1: to be very detailed conversations about the topics that are
Speaker 1: most important to you, so you do know what to expect.
Speaker 1: And then you have to stay clear of attorneys that
Speaker 1: lie to you. If they tell you we're going to
Speaker 1: give you everything you want, you want percent custody, you
Speaker 1: got it, run because it's not realistic. So glad you
Speaker 1: said that to you. Which is that idea that an
Speaker 1: attorney may promise you the moon and stars. Oh, this case,
Speaker 1: I'm easily going to get you eighty percent, no problem.
Speaker 1: I've heard people say that and it was none of
Speaker 1: it was true. And what then, Well, your attorney should
Speaker 1: be telling you the pros and cons of your case, right,
Speaker 1: You don't want you should not want to hear all
Speaker 1: the good things. You should not want to hear I'm
Speaker 1: gonna win the moon and the stars. You want someone
Speaker 1: that tells you these are the pros of your case,
Speaker 1: these are the cons. This is where I think we're
Speaker 1: going to have problems. Yep, yep, yep. And but it
Speaker 1: is a it is such an emotional time that I
Speaker 1: also think what's challenging as people can't really hear what's
Speaker 1: being said. Right, that's a big one too. Honestly, when
Speaker 1: they're coming in your office, you know there's this whoshing
Speaker 1: sound in their ears and they're probably hearing about half
Speaker 1: of what you're saying. So things in writing and all
Speaker 1: of that would make a huge, huge That brings me
Speaker 1: back to my original point that we are here to
Speaker 1: help you with the business of your divorce. So the
Speaker 1: more you can have support outside of what we do,
Speaker 1: the better you can potentially hear what we're saying. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about mediation, okay, because this is one that
Speaker 1: comes up all the time. Mediation is put out there
Speaker 1: as a what's considered maybe a more civil and less
Speaker 1: costly approach. Is mediation ever a realistic option for people
Speaker 1: who are going through a divorce with the narcissistic person.
Speaker 1: I think it's only a choice when they have new supply.
Speaker 1: Supply or narcissistic supply is the validation that the narcissistic
Speaker 1: person wants and needs. This can be praise, attention, a
Speaker 1: sense of power, control, and domination like they might feel
Speaker 1: if they are commandeering a divorce. When narcissistic people have
Speaker 1: enough supply, we see the charm, charisma, swagger, and arrogance.
Speaker 1: These relationships are notoriously one sided, with the narcissist needing
Speaker 1: supply and the rest of us giving it. So if
Speaker 1: they're trying to get out of the relationship fast and
Speaker 1: they really want out and they're ready to give you
Speaker 1: what you want because they're focused on something else, then
Speaker 1: it might work. Otherwise it doesn't because it's a direct
Speaker 1: contradiction to who on our a person is right, because
Speaker 1: they know everything. So if you know everything, you can't
Speaker 1: hear the mediator. You can't hear what they're trying to
Speaker 1: tell you. You can't hear them, and they want to win,
Speaker 1: and mediation is not about winning, it's about compromising. And
Speaker 1: so if they haven't moved on and they're still kind
Speaker 1: of focused on this process, it's probably not a great idea.
Speaker 1: I found your example really interesting, Demitria. If your narcissistic
Speaker 1: person has already found new supply, you know that they
Speaker 1: found a new person to validate invariably in the divorces
Speaker 1: that they've met someone new, right, which again, narcissistic people
Speaker 1: they're again because they don't go deep with anyone, they're
Speaker 1: able to replace you with someone new and very quickly.
Speaker 1: If they didn't already while you were still married, right,
Speaker 1: So there they have their new supply. That's fascinating to
Speaker 1: me is that you found that in some of those cases,
Speaker 1: the persons found their new supply, they're feeling in a
Speaker 1: rush to get engaged and to get married. That that
Speaker 1: might be a point if that narcissistic person, though, is
Speaker 1: sort of feeling such a pressure that they just want
Speaker 1: to get you gone and meiation could potentially, but you
Speaker 1: better hope they don't break up with the supply because
Speaker 1: then the focus is back on you and we're right
Speaker 1: back to where we started. So now we get to
Speaker 1: this interesting place of the language. People use words like
Speaker 1: narcissism and gas lighting. Again, I've been told this by
Speaker 1: my clients. Will say, when you say these words in
Speaker 1: the courtroom, you're sometimes viewed as the problem. Yes, can
Speaker 1: you talk to ze Okay, can you talk to us
Speaker 1: about that? Yes? Because I think it's so I don't
Speaker 1: want to say overly used in our society, but I
Speaker 1: think it's a new concept. We're learning more about it,
Speaker 1: and some people don't want to be bothered. And so
Speaker 1: most judges have twenty to thirty cases on their calendar.
Speaker 1: And so if you go off script and start talking
Speaker 1: about things that they're not familiar with. Then you, of
Speaker 1: course are the crazy one and maybe we should look
Speaker 1: at you, or maybe you're the narcissist because you keep
Speaker 1: bringing it up. Courts don't want to hear it, so
Speaker 1: you have to be very careful with the language you use.
Speaker 1: Do you coach clients who are going through narcissistic divorces
Speaker 1: on that saying we're not I get that your X
Speaker 1: is we're soon to be X is a narcissist, But
Speaker 1: I get that they're gaslighting. I get all that we're
Speaker 1: not saying these works. Do you prepare them to find
Speaker 1: different ways to talk about this stuff in front of
Speaker 1: a judge, talk about the issue at hand. This person
Speaker 1: did not do the exchange at this time. I am
Speaker 1: concerned because of x y Z Dmitria. I want to
Speaker 1: understand when a person has you have a client, they
Speaker 1: have a narcissistic X who has a narcissistic attorney. Are
Speaker 1: there any legal guardrails in place to stop this process
Speaker 1: from becoming full on ongoing harassment? Yes and no. Right so,
Speaker 1: there are codes in the family Code that can sanction
Speaker 1: a party for overlitigating. There's even codes now to sanction
Speaker 1: the attorney, but doesn't happen in practice? Not really interesting. Okay,
Speaker 1: there might be a slap on a risk a warning here,
Speaker 1: but not anything significant. So that means what I'm hearing
Speaker 1: is that it is conceivable some this entire process can
Speaker 1: be commandeered by someone if they have the attorney who's
Speaker 1: willing to do it, for them to turn into a
Speaker 1: place of harassment. For years, I've had a case for
Speaker 1: almost five years. They've filed over ninety motions, ninety to
Speaker 1: what end? Like those? How different can each of these?
Speaker 1: So where my client and I are just like here
Speaker 1: we go, Wow, what ends? Is there a point where
Speaker 1: a person who holds some form of authority through the
Speaker 1: stage or the courts or the county or whatever, can
Speaker 1: finally say, clocks, time's up. We've run out. Is that
Speaker 1: a thing? Well, we eventually get to a trial, and
Speaker 1: that would eventually end it. But we have to get
Speaker 1: to the trial. Oh so the trial is sort of
Speaker 1: the punctuation mark at the end of the sentence. But
Speaker 1: my understanding is it does take a long time. A
Speaker 1: long time. Is that because all of this other stuff
Speaker 1: has to happen first, or is it because the courts
Speaker 1: are backed up? Or both. It's both okay, But a
Speaker 1: lot of times we have to do discovery. You know,
Speaker 1: that's a way to extend the case. Oh I didn't
Speaker 1: get this, Oh I need to do another deposition. Oh
Speaker 1: I need these documents. And for our listeners, you want
Speaker 1: to interrupt you, but I just as we're using this
Speaker 1: for a discovery. I know it, you know it. But
Speaker 1: my understanding of what discovery is is sort of the
Speaker 1: providing all of the appropriate documentation of anything that's needed
Speaker 1: to be able to get what's need so that decisions
Speaker 1: can be made in the case I write about that, right,
Speaker 1: So it could be tax documents, it could be finantial
Speaker 1: bank statements, anything deeds of even could be medical records
Speaker 1: related to children. But then when you're in this process,
Speaker 1: discovery is all your text messages to my client for
Speaker 1: the last five years, all your text messages to your
Speaker 1: mother for the last five years. So it's another form
Speaker 1: of harassment. Yeah, because it doesn't solve the case. Is
Speaker 1: there ever an authority that says no, you're not getting
Speaker 1: the text messages to the mother. That's not a thing
Speaker 1: like no, no, no. So the people can just sort
Speaker 1: of ask for anything that they want and because they
Speaker 1: can make up any reason why they need the messages
Speaker 1: to your mom, right, you told your mom you were
Speaker 1: going to give her the house, so that becomes a
Speaker 1: way to try to obtain text messages. I see, I
Speaker 1: see what I tell clients who, especially when I get
Speaker 1: them in the beginnings, I say to them, in about
Speaker 1: six months, you're going to start regretting that you filed
Speaker 1: for divorce. You're going to think you've made the biggest
Speaker 1: mistake of your life. And I want you to note
Speaker 1: that is coming because of what this process is. To
Speaker 1: the degree I can give them some psycho education that
Speaker 1: they are going to ask for things that are you
Speaker 1: can't imagine. This is going to become your second full
Speaker 1: time job pulling all this documentation, getting all the stuff together.
Speaker 1: You are going to feel trauma to tell I like, literally,
Speaker 1: this is what's about to come. So the way we've
Speaker 1: been talking about things, Dmitri, we have definitely been talking
Speaker 1: about folks who have money. What do you advise to
Speaker 1: a person who is about to approach a divorce. They
Speaker 1: do not have resources. Maybe they're renting an apartment, but
Speaker 1: it's the stuff with custody and child support, spiles or whatever.
Speaker 1: How do you advise people in those situations where it
Speaker 1: may very well be contentious around things like custody, but
Speaker 1: they simply don't have financial resources. The beauty of La
Speaker 1: County at least is there are a lot of self
Speaker 1: help sinners that will assist with the documents. There are
Speaker 1: a lot of organizations that will also give you an
Speaker 1: attorney if you meet their criteria, so you might have
Speaker 1: to do a little legwork and search out who can
Speaker 1: help you where you can get the documentation. A lot
Speaker 1: of the court's website has all of the information you need,
Speaker 1: and they try to do a really good job of
Speaker 1: outlining what you need to do, step by step, how
Speaker 1: to file the documents. There are also pro bono attorneys
Speaker 1: that take on some of these cases free of charge,
Speaker 1: but we all know that that's not a lot because
Speaker 1: you know, attorneys cost money. But most attorneys will provide
Speaker 1: a free consultation. Okay, so do not go into court
Speaker 1: without at least talking to someone to at least getting
Speaker 1: some of the tools. They might not give you everything,
Speaker 1: but getting some understanding of what to expect in court,
Speaker 1: how it's going to happen, how you should present your evidence.
Speaker 1: At least try to have a conversation, so you're not
Speaker 1: going in blind and not knowing what to expect. Ask
Speaker 1: the attorney, hey, do you know this judge? What can
Speaker 1: I expect? What should I say? How should I address?
Speaker 1: Should I address the other party? At least you have
Speaker 1: some framework of what to expect, even if you can't
Speaker 1: afford representation. Okay. So however, it's got to be challenging
Speaker 1: in absolutely. What about other issues, like even around immigration
Speaker 1: status or anything like that, which you can leave a
Speaker 1: person feeling like they're at peril? How does that work?
Speaker 1: Immigration status is not presented in family courts, Okay, it
Speaker 1: is not to know an issue that the court will consider,
Speaker 1: and courts actually get a little irritated when people try
Speaker 1: to bring that up because it's not part of the
Speaker 1: family law ex experience. Okay, that's good to know. And
Speaker 1: then most courts also have interpreters as well, So I
Speaker 1: would consider bringing your own if you think the court's
Speaker 1: going to be short staff or if they don't have
Speaker 1: your particular translator. But most of the times they do
Speaker 1: have interpreters available at the court. There are workarounds, but
Speaker 1: it's going to be harder. I mean, I think that
Speaker 1: there's no sugarcoatingness is if a person is going is
Speaker 1: under resourced going through this experience. Right again, they're so
Speaker 1: psychologically racked that working their way through, even through these
Speaker 1: low cost resources just feels challenge you overwhelming, It's really challenging.
Speaker 1: What about when you have one partner who has very
Speaker 1: few resources, but the other partner is more resourced. Right,
Speaker 1: so they have a job, they make the money, they're
Speaker 1: financially controlling. The financially control all the money. What about
Speaker 1: those situations that party can go in and ask that
Speaker 1: the narcissistic partner pay for their attorney fees. Now, that's
Speaker 1: going to probably come with a lot of I mean
Speaker 1: they can, you can ask for anything you want a
Speaker 1: lot of challenges. Yeah, but that is the standard in
Speaker 1: family law. If one party has the ability to pay,
Speaker 1: they will be on the hook for fee. Well, now,
Speaker 1: will you actually get it? Is the question the court
Speaker 1: can order it. Will you get it? Is an issue.
Speaker 1: I have also seen where the non abusing party loses
Speaker 1: their attorney because the narcissistic party is not paying the fees.
Speaker 1: And so a lot of times the non abusing party
Speaker 1: is left defending themselves because they can't afford or the
Speaker 1: other side is not providing the appropriate fees. Okay, So
Speaker 1: and I've seen that happen too. So you raised something
Speaker 1: though that I don't I want to ask about. Okay,
Speaker 1: I've seen this one happen over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: Which is this person, narcissistic person making tons of money
Speaker 1: bringing it in living large. Now this process starts and
Speaker 1: lost my job, yes, okay, or I close my business.
Speaker 1: Close business is a big one, right close my business?
Speaker 1: Lost my job, So now this starts this entire game
Speaker 1: around support payments and all of that. Can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about those scenarios in the narcissistic divorce. Well, thankfully,
Speaker 1: if they are employed, we can do wage garnishments and
Speaker 1: that sort of thing to make sure that, you know,
Speaker 1: support is paid. But it is a challenge if that
Speaker 1: person is self employed, there's nothing to attach to, and
Speaker 1: so then the non narcissistic party is trying to survive.
Speaker 1: So then this process becomes less important because I don't
Speaker 1: have money. How am I going to take care of
Speaker 1: the children? How am I going to live? And so
Speaker 1: now they're off their game, while the narcissistic partners going
Speaker 1: on their game plans this sort of sick and twisted
Speaker 1: sort of sense of pride of like, look, I stuck
Speaker 1: it to this person I want and may still have
Speaker 1: resources and whatnot that they can access because all they
Speaker 1: did was step away, like you said, from a self
Speaker 1: employment kind of a setup. And that's why all we
Speaker 1: try to talk to clients throughout the process about the
Speaker 1: practicality of everything, because of course I do this every day, right,
Speaker 1: so this is my job, this is what I do.
Speaker 1: But how are you going to live? What is the
Speaker 1: plan if he takes everything away? What are we doing?
Speaker 1: Because you're not going to want to do this process
Speaker 1: if you don't have anywhere to go at night. Yes,
Speaker 1: so that's extremely important to me. Yes, yes, yes, Okay.
Speaker 1: What does community property really mean? Community property really means
Speaker 1: that all the property and the debt for that matter,
Speaker 1: that we accrue during the marriage belongs to the both
Speaker 1: of us. Okay, So if we buy property, regardless of
Speaker 1: whose name it's in, are assumed to be community property. Okay. Cars, cars, furniture, furniture, everything, everything, everything,
Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter if you bought it for your
Speaker 1: bank account or my bank account, or your salary or
Speaker 1: my salary. Okay, I'm going to ask you a funny, tricky,
Speaker 1: strange question. So I've worked with more than a few
Speaker 1: people or with narcissistic cheaters. Oh okay, And so the
Speaker 1: narcissistic cheater, he'd buy an expensive item, a watch, a
Speaker 1: piece of jewelry for the other person, Okay, special friend,
Speaker 1: that thing now belongs to someone else. But presumably these
Speaker 1: joint assets were used to buy a fifty thousand dollars gift. Right,
Speaker 1: how does that play out in a divorce? It really
Speaker 1: depends on the station in life, right, because if fifty
Speaker 1: thousand is really like five hundred, it's probably not going
Speaker 1: to be a thing a thing. But a fifty thousand
Speaker 1: is twice your salary for the month or whatever it is,
Speaker 1: it's going to be a thing, and you might have
Speaker 1: to give that back to the community. So, in other words,
Speaker 1: that person gone, but that fifty thousand may have to
Speaker 1: come back in. It's really it depends kind of scenario.
Speaker 1: I know of a circumstance where a person found a
Speaker 1: receipt for expensive pieces that equaled about fifty thousand. They
Speaker 1: weren't hers, right, and so then she knew that this
Speaker 1: was purchased for something that's definitely a divorce issue. Do
Speaker 1: you ever advise a person in a divorce with a
Speaker 1: narcissist where there's going to be all this twoing and
Speaker 1: frowing that if they can find a number that works
Speaker 1: for them that would be less than the fifty percent
Speaker 1: that they're entitled to, might even be thirty percent, but
Speaker 1: they can live with the number, take it and go,
Speaker 1: even though it's not what the law might have awarded
Speaker 1: them all the time, all the time. Interested, what do
Speaker 1: you talk more about that? Yes? What is it worth
Speaker 1: to you? What is your mental health work to you?
Speaker 1: What is your piece work to you? What is your
Speaker 1: freedom work to you? And some people sometimes I have to,
Speaker 1: you know, talk them back up. Some people say I
Speaker 1: don't want anything. I'll walk away from all the houses,
Speaker 1: all the stuff. I just want to go. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about infidelity, Okay, okay, narcissistic infidelity that because the fact is,
Speaker 1: not all relationships where there's infidelity end up in divorce,
Speaker 1: right the In fact, a lot don't. Don't. Narcissistic infidelity
Speaker 1: seems to have a little bit of a flare to it.
Speaker 1: It's either repeat did yes, it's in your face their
Speaker 1: person's gas slighted about it, whatever, it is when you
Speaker 1: and and they've already if you're married to or a
Speaker 1: narcissistic person, they've already been abusing the heck out of
Speaker 1: you anyway, so treating you terribly, and then there's this
Speaker 1: whole other thing happening. And so in your experience when
Speaker 1: infidelity is a driver of that divorce, do those divorces
Speaker 1: have a different feel to you from the perspective of
Speaker 1: you representing the non narcissistic person. Right, They're very dramatic
Speaker 1: from the start. But again we're managing expectations because unfortunately
Speaker 1: in California we have a no faught state. So infidelity
Speaker 1: is important to the person that it happened to ye,
Speaker 1: but it's not important in the context of the divorce.
Speaker 1: So I'm having to say, yes, let's talk about it.
Speaker 1: I want to hear about it because it's important to you.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, when we go onto court, judge doesn't want
Speaker 1: to hear about it. That must be a big part
Speaker 1: again about the expectations, and I think that's a shocker
Speaker 1: for people who think, like it's isn't that don't you
Speaker 1: get like points for that now? And then some people
Speaker 1: get mad at me because I'm honest right. Everyone doesn't
Speaker 1: appreciate the honesty. I've had people not hire me, go
Speaker 1: hire someone that told them what they wanted to hear,
Speaker 1: and then come back because the honesty is important. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to tell you, Yes, go tell the court
Speaker 1: all the times he cheated on you, because the court
Speaker 1: just doesn't want to hear about it. Interesting. Have you
Speaker 1: ever represented the narcissist? Yes, okay, talk about this. I
Speaker 1: think that was before I really understood what was going on,
Speaker 1: and when I was a lot younger in my career,
Speaker 1: where the money meant something more to me than my reputation,
Speaker 1: and they know how to control you. They know how
Speaker 1: to get out of you what they want, and the
Speaker 1: money is flowing. So in your career before you learn
Speaker 1: all money is not good money and your reputation matters,
Speaker 1: and you know you have constant money coming in. And
Speaker 1: that's a very hard experience because you have no client
Speaker 1: control because they know more than you. Without a law degree,
Speaker 1: they know more than the judge, so it's very hard
Speaker 1: to maintain the case. Now, the next thing I want
Speaker 1: to go talk about why do people get divorced? I
Speaker 1: could spend an hour on this topic, but I heard
Speaker 1: this quote before, and it really stuck with me. I
Speaker 1: think people spend more time preparing for the wedding than
Speaker 1: they do the actual marriage. People aren't talking, they don't
Speaker 1: know what they want the marriage to look like, they
Speaker 1: don't know what makes them happy. They haven't talked to
Speaker 1: their spouse about what makes them happy. So people are
Speaker 1: just getting married and then trying to figure it out
Speaker 1: once they get in the relationship. I think what's also challenging, though,
Speaker 1: is that the narcissistic relationship so at a whole level
Speaker 1: of challenge to that, right, yes, because with all the
Speaker 1: conversations in the world, we're never going to make this
Speaker 1: relationship healthy. And then people say, well, shouldn't people have
Speaker 1: figured this out before they got married? Ish, you know,
Speaker 1: the idea of this whole trauma bonding justifying not getting
Speaker 1: what this is. Maybe I'm expecting too much from a person.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm the one who's too sensitive. I mean, the
Speaker 1: whole litany of things we talk about on this podcast
Speaker 1: all the time that folks are kind of in a storm.
Speaker 1: And so then there is this idea of like, but
Speaker 1: I really do want to get married, I really do
Speaker 1: want a family. If their friends are all getting married,
Speaker 1: this whole agenda that's happening that has nothing to do
Speaker 1: And so I was thinking, I saw some stuff that
Speaker 1: made me uncomfortable, but there was enough boxes being ticked.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, if there ever there was a time
Speaker 1: to not compromise this before you agree to this. But
Speaker 1: even once they're in it, the justifying all that stuff continues,
Speaker 1: and communication and all of that stuff that's all off
Speaker 1: the table. People are in a mess that they just
Speaker 1: simply don't understand. And if they don't have the language
Speaker 1: of narcissism, they just don't even know what they're dealing with.
Speaker 1: And most of the time they're blaming themselves. There were
Speaker 1: more procedures to get in ilish, there were more conversation,
Speaker 1: more procedure to get in to force people to really
Speaker 1: think about the commitment. I really agree, And you know what,
Speaker 1: I think part of the problem is a lot of
Speaker 1: that has happened in sort of more religious spaces, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like, you know, church, marriage counseling,
Speaker 1: these six sessions you might have to do, and I
Speaker 1: think that's tricky. I think that's designed like let's talk
Speaker 1: about things, but I actually mean sort of like, for example,
Speaker 1: when a patient comes from my practice. There's an informed
Speaker 1: consent where I'm kind of listening everything that could kind
Speaker 1: of go wrong. Right, Nobody is signing informed consent for marriage.
Speaker 1: There is no form. No, they're not even talking about it.
Speaker 1: That's a thing. Yeah, informed consent for marriage. I never
Speaker 1: even thought about it until now, Like, please know that.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine a lot of people, and there'd be
Speaker 1: two doors if you're still want to that would be
Speaker 1: that door and the other door. There's a bar right there,
Speaker 1: just have a coverage. I want the bar want. I
Speaker 1: think I'm gonna take a path on that one. Okay.
Speaker 1: So when you're in a narcissistic relationship and things go wrong,
Speaker 1: the one thing a narcissistic person cannot do is regulate disappointment.
Speaker 1: They cannot a job offset, not getting the bonus they thought,
Speaker 1: not getting the promotion, not getting the money, whatever it
Speaker 1: may be, things not working out the way they want.
Speaker 1: They lack the flexibility to roll with that. And so
Speaker 1: a marriage that was already a little precarious because this
Speaker 1: person was really difficult to start with. When things go wrong,
Speaker 1: when it falls apart, it falls apart colossally, and narcissistic
Speaker 1: people always blame everybody else for what's gone wrong. This
Speaker 1: is your fault, This is your mother's fault, this is
Speaker 1: your sister's fault, this is the kid's fault, this is
Speaker 1: the dog's fault. And then when the divorce process starts,
Speaker 1: this is an unfair process. This is the entire process
Speaker 1: is stacked up against me. Victim victim, victim victim, right,
Speaker 1: and that's how they go that to that process. But
Speaker 1: a lot of narcissists high too, that can really hide
Speaker 1: who they are. Charm your sacks off until you're married.
Speaker 1: Demitria notes that narcissism can hide behind charm. It's not
Speaker 1: that they hide, it's that the superficial charm is a
Speaker 1: tactic meant to get validation, and that is on when
Speaker 1: they feel in control and in power. But lurking underneath
Speaker 1: at all times is the rage that comes out when
Speaker 1: they feel insecure, So they can be very charming in
Speaker 1: the courtroom. Oh yes. And what's challenging about this is
Speaker 1: if a person's gone through a narcissistic divorce, they often
Speaker 1: look crushed. Okay, they look crushed and broken by the process,
Speaker 1: so they can look hollowed out. They may be hunched over,
Speaker 1: they may be crying, they may not actually even look
Speaker 1: well put together because they've been through something. Right, the
Speaker 1: narcissistic person comes in there, they're charming, they are grandiose,
Speaker 1: they're so privilege they feel like they belong there. They
Speaker 1: almost are acting like their buddies with the judge. That's
Speaker 1: what the judges need to be able to see through,
Speaker 1: because that picture is maybe of like, well, maybe this
Speaker 1: person just was like there's something wrong with them the
Speaker 1: other person and this person seems to have it really well,
Speaker 1: sort of put together. Have you ever had that situation
Speaker 1: where your client was really sort of broken down by
Speaker 1: this process, and then the charming narcissist comes in and
Speaker 1: walters into the courtroom and everyone's thinking, well, they've got
Speaker 1: it all together. I have, and I've had to have
Speaker 1: a hard conversation. If we go in here crying, it's
Speaker 1: not gonna be good for us. So let's cry. Now,
Speaker 1: let's take a break, let's go have coffee, and then
Speaker 1: we're going to go back in because unfortunately it is
Speaker 1: a sign of weakness. And when we go into court again,
Speaker 1: we want to present our facts, our case and get
Speaker 1: to the court what we want. But if we go
Speaker 1: over there like you said, slouched over crying. Your message
Speaker 1: is overshadowed by that. It's unfortunate because there's a reality
Speaker 1: to it. The reason that person is hunched over is
Speaker 1: because they've gone through something. It's not you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, it's not at all weak. In fact, that's
Speaker 1: a really strong response experiencing something real. But the judges
Speaker 1: do not understand trauma. Right. But this is what I
Speaker 1: tell my clients too. Again, this is a business, and
Speaker 1: there's a way you have to present your business. We
Speaker 1: have to deal with our emotions and our trauma and
Speaker 1: everything we went through, but unfortunately we cannot present that
Speaker 1: in the courtroom. We will be right back with my
Speaker 1: conversation with Demitria. So let's talk about you, not your custody.
Speaker 1: It's messy enough already, and this is where all the
Speaker 1: emotions come in because most people say car, dining, table, house,
Speaker 1: even whatever. I want my kids, right, How do you
Speaker 1: help people through this process when they're starting and going
Speaker 1: through a narcissistic divorce and this custody issue of minor
Speaker 1: children is in play. It depends on where we are
Speaker 1: in a case. Because I've had a case where the
Speaker 1: narcissistic partner went and tried to win custody before the
Speaker 1: case even started, right, So when we're in that circumstance,
Speaker 1: and clearly that's a different strategy. And sometimes if you
Speaker 1: even start with fifty fifty, it kind of unravels on
Speaker 1: its own because sometimes the narcissistic partner cannot sustain it,
Speaker 1: especially if there's new supply that they're focused on. They
Speaker 1: don't even want their children fifty percent of the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no they don't, but they'll fight for fifty percent because
Speaker 1: they know they're going to mess with the other person.
Speaker 1: But then it falls apart and they can't do it.
Speaker 1: So and the fall apart process because the decision, a
Speaker 1: court decision may be made for fifty percent, right, the
Speaker 1: fall apart would then be the documentation of this pickup
Speaker 1: didn't happen. They didn't take them for any of the
Speaker 1: weekends they were supposed to. They disappeared from They don't
Speaker 1: care about that because they won. They won the fifty fifty, right,
Speaker 1: But then your client is now going to have to
Speaker 1: mount up the legal argument and go back into the court. Ye. Right.
Speaker 1: So that's the thing is that to modify it, you're
Speaker 1: not going to get that appointment right away, And so
Speaker 1: while you're waiting those gaps of time, got the fifty
Speaker 1: fifty judgment, narcissistic person messing up, messing up, messing up
Speaker 1: new court dates all the way over here, right. But
Speaker 1: in this entire process here, what's happening is that that
Speaker 1: narcissistic person, the narcissistic x narcissistic co parent, is lording
Speaker 1: it over them. Hey, I got fifty percent, don't you
Speaker 1: plan av cage? I got fifty percent? They don't take
Speaker 1: the fifty percent, but the court dates all the way
Speaker 1: out here. This is so psychologically difficult for people who
Speaker 1: are holding up eighty percent custody. They're not getting the
Speaker 1: financial support necessarily if they're entitled to it for eighty
Speaker 1: percent custody. But then when they try to plan a
Speaker 1: life for these children, it's exactly then where that narcissistic
Speaker 1: co parent will say, well, I do have fifty percent,
Speaker 1: and if you don't do that, well then you are
Speaker 1: in violation that fifty fifty. That's the game I've seen
Speaker 1: played over and over and over. And what's said to
Speaker 1: me are the kids are watching, they see what's happening.
Speaker 1: They're the most impacted. This sticks with them, and a
Speaker 1: lot of children do not have the language to express
Speaker 1: how they're feeling and what that's like. I also think
Speaker 1: of the number of people who sort of wait until
Speaker 1: their children are either coming in sixty seventeen years old
Speaker 1: or full on eighteen, like eighteenth birthday celebration of my
Speaker 1: eighteen child's eighteen birthdays. I'm rolling up to court and
Speaker 1: I'm filing for divorce right where the custody stuff is
Speaker 1: off the table. Right. The big question I get why
Speaker 1: can't the courts just do what's right to protect children
Speaker 1: and instead get caught in this. Well, by the law,
Speaker 1: they're allowed to have this. What are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 1: I think courts think they're doing the best that they
Speaker 1: can with the information that they have, right, because we
Speaker 1: both know narcissists can hide some of this behavior, they
Speaker 1: can present the best of themselves. And let's say, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna use myself for an example. If I have a
Speaker 1: mental issue and I went to a mental health facility
Speaker 1: for a couple of months, you're using that against me.
Speaker 1: So now it's how can she take care of a
Speaker 1: child if she has these mental health concerns, or how
Speaker 1: can she take care of a child if she works
Speaker 1: eighty hours a week, and so they know how to
Speaker 1: use things against you to make themselves look better and
Speaker 1: hide the narcissistic trade. The thing that I try to
Speaker 1: work with clients on is can we get you set
Speaker 1: up in your attorney, set things out the right way
Speaker 1: that you make the narcissistic person snap. That's the game.
Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to say game, but that's the game.
Speaker 1: You know, is how can we get them? And part
Speaker 1: of it is you know, you not reacting, you staying strong,
Speaker 1: you coming in looking like your fear self and your
Speaker 1: new suit into the courtroom. That it's anything that can
Speaker 1: make them again snap so that their personality comes will
Speaker 1: show to the judge. There are other players where there's
Speaker 1: children in custody, there are people who represent the child
Speaker 1: in proceedings. These folks are a blessing and a curse
Speaker 1: because a lot of them don't understand narcissism right. And
Speaker 1: it also depends on who they align with. Some alind
Speaker 1: with the narcissisms. I know that that can be very
Speaker 1: very dangerous, very dangerous. Can you explain what a guardian
Speaker 1: ad litem is from a legal perspective? If that's just
Speaker 1: someone that's appointed as the guardian of the child if
Speaker 1: something for whatever reason, either parent is not in the
Speaker 1: capacity to care for their kid, okay, and so the
Speaker 1: guardian a lighted is someone the parents choose, or it's
Speaker 1: someone who's acting. Sometimes the court has to choose if
Speaker 1: the parents are unable to choose, okay. So this is
Speaker 1: a person who's in the child's life yes, okay, Kennedy
Speaker 1: and sort of helping represent their interests in court process.
Speaker 1: And what I see mostly in family court at least
Speaker 1: here is either miners counsel yes, which is a lawyer
Speaker 1: that is appointed for the child's voice. We also have
Speaker 1: miners interview where miners are interviewed by the judge to
Speaker 1: talk about whatever the issue may be. And then we
Speaker 1: have custody evaluations where someone that's like a therapist comes
Speaker 1: and evaluates the situation and makes a recommendation for the
Speaker 1: court what they deem to be the children's best interests.
Speaker 1: The bigger problem to me is sometimes they don't have
Speaker 1: enough time to really get into the needy gradient what's
Speaker 1: going on, and most people don't have money to pay
Speaker 1: for a private evaluator that can be fifteen to twenty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And then again, if that person aligns with
Speaker 1: one of the parties, it's not giving the court adequate information.
Speaker 1: And then miners counsel. Most parties don't have money to
Speaker 1: pay for the minor to have a lawyer. But I
Speaker 1: know for me in my practice, I don't like kids
Speaker 1: to have to be interviewed or have lawyers. That is
Speaker 1: very traumatic. They do not want to do that. It's
Speaker 1: very traumatic. And Okay, so this is another really important one.
Speaker 1: Kids are often it's not hurt, sometimes even traumatized by
Speaker 1: this entire process. Yes, what if you have a situation
Speaker 1: where one parent very much wants therapy for the children,
Speaker 1: but the other parent is saying no, and they have
Speaker 1: set up their medical care. Is that both parents have
Speaker 1: joint legal custody, which is what most parents tend to have,
Speaker 1: is joint legal custody, meaning they both can make legal
Speaker 1: decisions about the child. But I will say family court
Speaker 1: is very, very supportive of therapy for children, especially in
Speaker 1: divorce settings. So you better have a really good reason
Speaker 1: why you're objecting to therapy and why you feel it's
Speaker 1: not in the best interest, because what can happen is
Speaker 1: you can lose your joint deciding authority, and that one
Speaker 1: parent can have the authority to decide if the kids
Speaker 1: are going to do therapy or not. If the one
Speaker 1: parent is trying to stop something like, there has to
Speaker 1: be a really good reason, Okay, all right, yes, yeah. However,
Speaker 1: I have seen though that the parent who is trying
Speaker 1: to refuse therapy could forestall the process. They're waiting for
Speaker 1: the hearing until they have that, so it could be months,
Speaker 1: sometimes even a year. The child can't get therapy because
Speaker 1: you can't get both parents to what. I've heard judges
Speaker 1: saying that regardless, that is not child focused and if
Speaker 1: you don't come up with a good reason, I need
Speaker 1: to know why the other parents shouldn't have so legal custody.
Speaker 1: I think that the hardest thing that people learn is
Speaker 1: that family court is actually not designed to protect children.
Speaker 1: That's not its function, and that's what a lot of
Speaker 1: people think it is. And sadly though this system is
Speaker 1: harming children. I have worked with adult survivors of these
Speaker 1: court systems. I'm thinking of one woman in particular, and
Speaker 1: she said, I was destroyed by what happened in that
Speaker 1: family court. That fifty fifty custody. Yes, damn near broke me.
Speaker 1: If the function of family court is not to protect children,
Speaker 1: what is the function of family court? Well, they will
Speaker 1: tell you it is to protect the children and get
Speaker 1: the parties divorce. But as we're talking that that's not
Speaker 1: the case, not the case right now that it's pushing
Speaker 1: the cases through. Family court has so many cases in
Speaker 1: front of them, especially post pandemic, so they're not spending
Speaker 1: the time on each case to really get down to
Speaker 1: the details of what's going on. They can only do
Speaker 1: with what is presented to them by the parties. And
Speaker 1: a lot of times we can't see the narcissistic behavior
Speaker 1: because they're hiding behind their masks, and they do it
Speaker 1: really well. To me, family court is a place where
Speaker 1: this legal contract called marriage is taken apart. Yes, and
Speaker 1: I think that that contract part that's not very romantic
Speaker 1: and it's not sexy like a honeymoon or a wedding cake.
Speaker 1: But it is a contract. And when we take contracts
Speaker 1: apart ahead of their term, there's a process. Yes, And
Speaker 1: what if the narcissistic co parent keeps trying to drag
Speaker 1: the other person back into court over everything from the
Speaker 1: hundred dollars for karate lessons to the new pair of
Speaker 1: snow boots, like every little expenditure they're trying to adjudicate.
Speaker 1: How do you handle those cases for your clients. I
Speaker 1: have told my clients to keep as great as records
Speaker 1: as possible. Document everything. I paid you ten dollars on
Speaker 1: February twenty third for karate whatever it is, to document it,
Speaker 1: because nine times out of ten, if the narcissistic partner
Speaker 1: did not win, you are going back to court. Okay,
Speaker 1: what is your guy around? Family communication apps? Like My
Speaker 1: Family Wizard and I'm talking parents love them and I
Speaker 1: think our Family Wizard has the tone meter, So if
Speaker 1: you feel if you feel that you know you might
Speaker 1: use choice words, it has a tone meter and it'll
Speaker 1: tell you the alternative to what you want to say.
Speaker 1: Imagine if we had tone meters we could wear around
Speaker 1: our necks as we walked around the roof. Be it
Speaker 1: really quiet? Right? World? Right? I think you and I
Speaker 1: are both so familiar with the apps, but people listening
Speaker 1: may not be. So my Family Wizards has a tone meter. Yes,
Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about how that plays
Speaker 1: out on the app, because I think it's a really
Speaker 1: great future. So in family courts, sometimes the court has
Speaker 1: to order that parties have to use an app to
Speaker 1: communicate with one another. And so what our Family Wizard
Speaker 1: does if you send an email because you're supposed to
Speaker 1: communicate with your other parents on the app, it'll tell you, hey,
Speaker 1: check your tone when you send this email. And that's
Speaker 1: based on the words. That's based on the words that
Speaker 1: you put in the message to the other party. And
Speaker 1: I also say with the apps, keep it short. Please
Speaker 1: don't give of seven page letter. Let's see, that's what
Speaker 1: narcissistic people do if they do give seven page letters.
Speaker 1: And you know, the features of our Family Wizard talking
Speaker 1: parents is that they create a record, a record that
Speaker 1: is actually admissible in court and chord yes, and that
Speaker 1: starts to unravel the narcissistic mass as well. The court
Speaker 1: continuously sees seven page letters. That's exactly why the courts
Speaker 1: mandate the use of the apps. The parties can either
Speaker 1: agree on their own or if the communication is just
Speaker 1: so far out of control, the court will mandate okay, okay,
Speaker 1: god than use of the adding Okay. You know what's
Speaker 1: interesting about narcissistic folks and divorces. At some point, the
Speaker 1: kids sort of feel like a nuisance to them and
Speaker 1: sort of put cramp in their style and all of that.
Speaker 1: They could do the Disneyland parent thing for a man
Speaker 1: in it and show up and be all that they're
Speaker 1: not really interested in the hard work of parenting in
Speaker 1: many of these most of the cases I've seen, once
Speaker 1: they have one, whatever custody schedule they were seeking, it
Speaker 1: falls apart. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, nine times out of tune.
Speaker 1: I think there are folks out there who think that
Speaker 1: going in front of a judge will be this moment
Speaker 1: when someone is going to bear witness in this really
Speaker 1: public kind of judicially way, that someone's going to bear
Speaker 1: witness that this person's a narcissist, and there's going to
Speaker 1: be this magic moment it'll be recognized, the judge is
Speaker 1: going to see it. It's going to unmask the narcissist
Speaker 1: in this really public way, and that the person going
Speaker 1: through this will feel whole. What you got to say
Speaker 1: about that? That makes for great TV, but unfortunately that's
Speaker 1: not realistic. Yeah, yeah, And do you ever have clients
Speaker 1: who think that's going to happen. People want to be vindicated, Yes,
Speaker 1: they do. They want to be they want to be seen,
Speaker 1: but unfortunately it's not in court. Yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: a human in desire that somebody, especially a person in
Speaker 1: a position of authority, will bear witness your pain. And
Speaker 1: I think that if people are not prepared that that's
Speaker 1: not going to happen. It can actually feel like a
Speaker 1: catastrophic moment of even in this place where I thought
Speaker 1: that rightness and justice was going to be delivered, it
Speaker 1: wasn't seen. What is the rest of my life going
Speaker 1: to look like? When we have the sense of the
Speaker 1: world is an unjust place at such a big level,
Speaker 1: it can actually be this really big existential hole let
Speaker 1: people fall into. But I'm gonna referm them back to
Speaker 1: our expectation conversation, Yeah, of what the court is, what
Speaker 1: their role is, and what we can expect from an experience.
Speaker 1: So it's before the person goes in, they need to
Speaker 1: be aware of that. And you're right, this isn't a
Speaker 1: TV show where this is this grand moment and everything
Speaker 1: is seen and the person or people are clapping at
Speaker 1: the end and it's your crying and your attorney's hugging you. Okay,
Speaker 1: sorry to bust the bubble. Yeah, yeah, I know it's
Speaker 1: good to bust bubbles because otherwise it can get messy. Dmitrich,
Speaker 1: can you tell people where to find you? I am everywhere,
Speaker 1: definitely social media, Demitria Graves. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, you
Speaker 1: can email me at info at Graves Law FIRMCA dot com.
Speaker 1: I have my own podcast, Legally Uncensored, where I talk
Speaker 1: about a lot of these issues as well. You're such
Speaker 1: a fresh, wonderful voice. I so glad that we I
Speaker 1: get selfishly, so glad that everyone's like, I need an attorney.
Speaker 1: I got someone for you. I've got a referral. So
Speaker 1: I can't thank you for taking time out of your
Speaker 1: very busy schedule, really important work you do to share
Speaker 1: this with I've learned so much and I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: to you, so thank you, well, thank you. I'm very
Speaker 1: very happy to be here. Thank you. Here are my
Speaker 1: takeaways from my conversation with Demitria. Let's break down Demetria's
Speaker 1: pre divorce checklist for divorce from a narcissistic person, which
Speaker 1: is about the psychological shifts you will need to make
Speaker 1: within yourself. Her checklist highlights the issue of expectations and
Speaker 1: mental preparation. She reminds us that one the gloves are
Speaker 1: off and this is likely to be contentious and ugly
Speaker 1: to the degree that it is possible, you need to
Speaker 1: psychologically prepare for this. Number two, it will be more
Speaker 1: expensive than non narcissistic divorces. Issues such as overlitigation mean
Speaker 1: that cost overruns will happen, and that means it is
Speaker 1: essential you hire a good attorney who understands this strategically
Speaker 1: so they can be mindful of their time and your money.
Speaker 1: Number three. They may hire an antagonistic attorney themselves, and
Speaker 1: it can feel like you are fighting two people. Demetria
Speaker 1: reminds us that while this can be overwhelming and anxiety producing,
Speaker 1: it is your attorney's job to handle the arrogance and
Speaker 1: the nastiness of the opposing attorney. You just need to
Speaker 1: be ready for it. Number four. She also stresses that
Speaker 1: people must have realistic expectations about custody and co parenting.
Speaker 1: Next in her checklist is the idea that you need
Speaker 1: to hire a solid attorney that understands narcissism. If you
Speaker 1: are met with pushback like everyone thinks there x as
Speaker 1: a narcissist during a divorce all then your concerns may
Speaker 1: not be taken seriously enough. Find an attorney that hears
Speaker 1: your concerns without minimizing them, because if they do not
Speaker 1: know what they are up against, the divorce may end
Speaker 1: up being more expensive and take longer. She also strongly
Speaker 1: encourages clients to work with an attorney that has experience
Speaker 1: navigating the narcissistic divorce landscape. She also warns against choosing
Speaker 1: an attorney that is too passive and assumes things will
Speaker 1: just work their way out, but above all else she
Speaker 1: encourages trusting your intuition. In my next takeaway, the key
Speaker 1: mistakes that Demetria highlighted were that people over engage from
Speaker 1: the start, don't have a plan, and have the wrong attorney.
Speaker 1: This may be the fight of your life, so being strategic, tactical,
Speaker 1: and as supported as possible is essential, especially in a
Speaker 1: system that doesn't really care if your ex is a narcissist.
Speaker 1: In this next takeaway, as part of her pre, during,
Speaker 1: and post divorce checklist, Demetria strongly encourages people going through
Speaker 1: a narcissistic divorce work with a therapist. A lawyer is
Speaker 1: not a therapist, and therapy is the place to work
Speaker 1: through the strong emotions that this process can bring up. Now,
Speaker 1: this takeaway is important. Not everyone can afford to hire
Speaker 1: an attorney, and Demetria provided information on some resources to
Speaker 1: consider exploring. If the narcissistic person has an attorney, you
Speaker 1: will need one as well, and working with local pro
Speaker 1: bono and legal aid organizations can give you some essential
Speaker 1: guidance as you go through this process. So in this
Speaker 1: next takeaway, when it comes to working through the custody process,
Speaker 1: Demetria had three key recommendations. The first was documentation. Documenting
Speaker 1: everything and presenting hard data is far more important than
Speaker 1: saying this is toxic or the other parent isn't following
Speaker 1: the plan. Second was the use of family communication apps
Speaker 1: that allow you to keep a running record of communication. Finally,
Speaker 1: she again highlighted the importance of therapy not just for
Speaker 1: the parent, but also for children. And finally, for those
Speaker 1: of you not married yet, this episode may actually have
Speaker 1: more relevance than you realize. If you don't want to
Speaker 1: have to get out, then pay attention to how you
Speaker 1: come in. People are able to lavish attention on the
Speaker 1: minor details of wedding seating arrangements and honeymoon hotels, and
Speaker 1: that's fine, but the same level of attention and detail
Speaker 1: have to go into talking through and planning what you
Speaker 1: want a marriage to look like. We've floated the idea
Speaker 1: of an informed consent form for marriage, and while that
Speaker 1: may not exist yet, there is no reason you can't
Speaker 1: explore these issues, uncomfortable though they may be, before you
Speaker 1: sign that marriage license.