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Speaker 1: Sleep.

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Speaker 2: We spend around a third of our entire lives doing it,

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Speaker 2: completely oblivious to the world around us. Some animals, like cheetahs, toads,

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Speaker 2: and squirrels, spend at least half of their lives asleep.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of baffling when you think about it.

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Speaker 2: Time spent sleeping is time that can't be spent doing

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Speaker 2: things like searching for food, and if you're a wild animal,

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Speaker 2: time spent sleeping is time when you're less able to

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Speaker 2: detect a predator in the area.

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Speaker 1: So why do we sleep?

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Speaker 2: It turns out this activity that swallows up so much

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Speaker 2: of our short time on this planet is really hard

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Speaker 2: to study, but scientists have made some headway on this

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Speaker 2: question of why do we sleep? And today we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk to doctor Gina Poe about why we sleep

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Speaker 2: and chat with her about other fascinating questions like do

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Speaker 2: mushrooms sleep, does an octopus dream? And does all all

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Speaker 2: of our brains sleep at the same time or do

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Speaker 2: some parts fall asleep before the others?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Sleepy Universe.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Daniel, I'm a particle physicist and I don't sleep

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Speaker 3: particularly well.

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Speaker 1: Hi I'm Kelly Wiersmith.

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Speaker 2: I study parasites and space, and I'm not gonna blame

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Speaker 2: it on the parasites. But I don't sleep very well either,

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Speaker 2: But I love sleep, Like when eight to thirty comes

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Speaker 2: around every night, it is like the only thing on

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Speaker 2: my mind. Zach is like, it's only a thirty Are

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Speaker 2: you going to pull an all niner and stay up

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Speaker 2: past nine? And I'm like, I'm gonna do everything I

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Speaker 2: can and be in bed by the time nine o'clock

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Speaker 2: rolls around.

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Speaker 3: Young people don't appreciate how nice it is to be

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Speaker 3: home in the evening and have no plans, I.

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Speaker 2: Know, and have a comfy bed. Ah the blessing that

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Speaker 2: is a comfy bed. It's one of my favorite things.

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Speaker 4: It is.

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Speaker 3: Yes, when sleep well, it is definitely one of the

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Speaker 3: best things in the world. But when it's fraught, man,

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Speaker 3: I've had nights that lasted a thousand years.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yeah, no, me too.

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Speaker 2: We went camping once and it was a little bit

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Speaker 2: rainy and wait, so we weren't really camping. My daughter

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Speaker 2: and I were sleeping on the trampoline and it started

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Speaker 2: to rain and then it got really cold, and then

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Speaker 2: my back hurt. But I didn't want to ruin the

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Speaker 2: night for her, and so I tried to make it work.

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Speaker 2: And then at like five am, I was like EIGHTA,

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Speaker 2: we're moving inside.

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Speaker 1: I needed a nap. This is miserable.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's amazing to me that sleep is something we

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Speaker 3: just cannot do with that that we have to accomplish

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Speaker 3: every single day, and also that it's something you can't

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Speaker 3: really try to do. It's like something you have to

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Speaker 3: try to not do, you know though, Like the harder

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Speaker 3: you work at sleeping, the more you get worked up

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Speaker 3: about it, and the harder it is too sleep. It's incredible.

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Speaker 3: It seems so fragile. It's incredible that it ever works.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think you and I are making clear that

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Speaker 2: we don't have a very good relationship with sleep at all.

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Speaker 1: But I wake up a million times in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the night, and it's a.

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Speaker 3: Thing, and it makes me wonder, like why we evolved this,

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Speaker 3: why it's such an important part of our life cycle?

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Speaker 3: If it's yet so fraud and so fragile, right, it

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Speaker 3: seems like kind of a bad idea.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's possible that you and I

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Speaker 2: are just broken in a particular way. And that this

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Speaker 2: problem with sleep is not present for everyone. I mean,

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Speaker 2: my kids conk out and they are out and it's

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Speaker 2: fine for them.

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Speaker 3: But that's also an age depending thing, right. A lot

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Speaker 3: of kids have no problem with sleep, sleep all night,

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Speaker 3: sleep anywhere, all the time. But then as you get

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Speaker 3: older sometimes it gets harder to make it work.

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Speaker 1: I agree.

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Speaker 2: But so today's episode, we're talking to a sleep experts

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Speaker 2: and we forgot to ask her about tips for how

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Speaker 2: to solve our sleeping problems. She didn't solve our sleep problems, yes,

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Speaker 2: but a guest wanted to know about dreams, why we dream,

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Speaker 2: interpretations of dreams, et cetera. So, what is the weirdest

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Speaker 2: dream you've ever had?

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Speaker 1: Daniel?

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Speaker 2: And let's keep it short, because I think notoriously people

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Speaker 2: don't want to hear about dreams that other people have had.

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Speaker 2: So real, quick, weirdest dream you've had?

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Speaker 3: Well, as you know, I think a lot about aliens,

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Speaker 3: and so lott of my weird dreams have aliens in them,

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Speaker 3: and they're pretty weird and sometimes they eat me or

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Speaker 3: my children, and sometimes it's my fault. Oh no, And

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Speaker 3: so yeah, those are pretty weird dreams.

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Speaker 2: There are so many insights about you wrapped up in

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Speaker 2: that story. For me, it was my mom and I

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Speaker 2: teamed up with the Berenstein Bears. We were a crime

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Speaker 2: fighting organization and a murderer was on the loose and

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Speaker 2: the murderer killed me because my mom, you know, went

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Speaker 2: off down a hallway and we split up, which classically

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Speaker 2: you should never do, and the Berenstein Bears had gone

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Speaker 2: another way and anyway, big mistake. Yeah, But all right,

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Speaker 2: So I don't know that there's much you can extract

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Speaker 2: about me out of that dream in particular, but we

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Speaker 2: are going to talk to an expert on sleep and dreams,

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Speaker 2: doctor Gina Poe, and she's going to answer all of

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Speaker 2: our questions about sleep and dreams.

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Speaker 3: And she's going to blow your mind about what it

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Speaker 3: means to sleep across the animal world.

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Speaker 2: And so let's start by listening to the question from

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Speaker 2: our listener that got this whole interview started.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Daniel and Kelly. This is Carrie from the Pacific Northwest,

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Speaker 4: and I was wondering if you can do show on dreams,

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Speaker 4: why we dream, what part of our brain is being

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Speaker 4: used when we dream, and just everything about dreams.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you Kerre for that wonderful question, and

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Speaker 3: all of you out there listening, if you haven't already

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Speaker 3: fallen asleep to this podcast, you are welcome to send

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Speaker 3: us your questions about the universe. We will try to

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Speaker 3: answer them, and we will sometimes rope in a world

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Speaker 3: class expert to give you answers.

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Speaker 2: And let's bring that world class expert on now. On

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Speaker 2: today's show, we have doctor Gina Poe. She's the Eleanor

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Speaker 2: Leslie Professor of Innovative Brain Research at UCLA. In addition

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Speaker 2: to research, she directs three university programs aimed at supporting

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Speaker 2: undergraduates who are underrepresented in STEM fields. She's done so

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Speaker 2: many incredible things. I'm just going to cherry pick a few.

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Speaker 2: Gina and her colleagues sent four rats to space as

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Speaker 2: part of NASA's Neurolab mission to study how brains map

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Speaker 2: the three D world in weightlessness where you don't really

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Speaker 2: know what side is up. And she's well known for

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Speaker 2: her discovery that's is important not just for remembering things,

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Speaker 2: but also for forgetting things. Her lab at UCLA focuses

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Speaker 2: on sleep and memory, which are the topics we're going

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Speaker 2: to be chatting about today. Welcome to the show, doctor Poe.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: We're super excited, Gina.

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Speaker 3: I have a first question, which is sort of goofy,

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Speaker 3: which is what do you call a rat you send

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Speaker 3: into space? Is it a ratronaut?

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Speaker 5: Yes? Actually great?

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Speaker 3: And do they have to undergo like a rigorous selection

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Speaker 3: process you know where they like run on treadmills for hours?

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Speaker 5: Actually yes, yes, we started with forty rats and ended

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Speaker 5: up before so and.

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Speaker 3: Those were the four that had the rat stuff.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the rat stuff nice, amazing great.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's start big with why do we think

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Speaker 2: we sleep? And how well do we understand the answer

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Speaker 2: to this question.

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Speaker 5: There are lots of answers to that question. I think

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Speaker 5: that there probably is one essential reason why we sleep,

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Speaker 5: but we don't know the answer to that question. But

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Speaker 5: we do know a lot of essential things that happen

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Speaker 5: during sleep with which we can't do without. For example,

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Speaker 5: energy metabolism goes way up when we're asleep. What I

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Speaker 5: mean by that is not actually metabolism, I mean restoring

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Speaker 5: energy stores to our entire body. Our mitochondria wake up

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Speaker 5: when we go to sleep, and they are doing their

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Speaker 5: job much much faster and restoring atp to all of

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Speaker 5: our cells. So that's just one essential function of probably

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Speaker 5: twenty that we know of.

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Speaker 3: Why do we have to be asleep for mitochondria to

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Speaker 3: do that? Why can't they just do it while we're

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Speaker 3: doing our thing?

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Speaker 5: I don't know. That's a good question. That's actually a

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Speaker 5: fairly new discovery.

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Speaker 1: And is that happening in all of our cells or

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Speaker 1: just our brain cells.

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Speaker 5: It's been discovered in fruit flies brain cells. Okay, so

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Speaker 5: that's a good question. I imagine it's going on everywhere.

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Speaker 5: But we know that the longer we're awake, the more

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Speaker 5: free adentiicine builds up in our brain, and that free

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Speaker 5: adenticine is a signal for sleepiness. And as soon as

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Speaker 5: we go to sleep within thirty minutes, that freodentisine has

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Speaker 5: been repackaged by mitochondria into ATP. So the freodentisine levels

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Speaker 5: go way down when we're asleep in the first twenty minutes,

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Speaker 5: which is probably why power naps are called power naps.

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Speaker 2: I do love me a power nap, me too. And

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Speaker 2: now I feel way more justified in that you said.

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Speaker 3: There are like twenty different things that happened when we sleep.

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Speaker 3: One of them is we're restoring energy stores. What are

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Speaker 3: some of the other ones.

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Speaker 5: Okay, so well, we know that we consolidate memories when

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Speaker 5: we're asleep, that's my field of research, and that without sleep,

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Speaker 5: we don't put them away long term and our memory stories.

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Speaker 5: Of course, memory is really important for adaptation to our environment,

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Speaker 5: finding where our home is, et cetera. And so that

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Speaker 5: would you can imagine that would be important for life itself.

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Speaker 5: It doesn't seem like all animals should have to learn things,

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Speaker 5: but in fact, every time we've tried to teach any

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Speaker 5: animal something, they've been able to learn it. Even mushrooms

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Speaker 5: can learn it. And there's some interesting study by vlad

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Speaker 5: Vyazovsky that shows that even mushrooms need sleep.

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Speaker 1: Well, what does sleep look like in a mushroom?

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Speaker 5: Like, what are they missing exactly? I don't know, you'll

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Speaker 5: have to ask Glad, but it came up with a

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Speaker 5: very convincing argument that mushrooms do sleep.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, so then that I'm going to jump

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Speaker 2: ahead then to another question that I had before, we

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Speaker 2: go back to purposes of sleep. Okay, so I would

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Speaker 2: not have guessed you were going to tell us that

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Speaker 2: mushroom sleep. That's an amazing surprise. I'm going to try

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Speaker 2: sneaking up on some of the mushrooms in my yard.

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Speaker 3: Now, Kelly, they're busy consolidating their memories of the day.

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Speaker 3: You're going to ruin it for them.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: I know all the tricks they were trying to learn. So, so,

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Speaker 2: what organisms sleep or like? Maybe it sounds like the

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Speaker 2: better question is what organists don't sleep, given that even

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Speaker 2: mushrooms sleep, Like, do bacteria sleep?

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Speaker 5: That is a good question. They definitely have a circadian rhythm,

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Speaker 5: so they have a time when they're not actively pulsing

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Speaker 5: or whatever and times when they are. So yeah, it's

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Speaker 5: a good question. I don't know the answer to that one,

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Speaker 5: and it would be difficult probably to tell in bacteria

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Speaker 5: except for that sort of change in activity. I guess

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Speaker 5: it would be the only way you could tell. Certainly,

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Speaker 5: our gut bacteria are doing different things at night versus

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Speaker 5: the day, and their rhythm gets messed up when we

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Speaker 5: have jet lag, for example.

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Speaker 3: And in all these creatures that sleep, is it all

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Speaker 3: linked to the same day night cycle.

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Speaker 5: Yes, except that, for example, there are rats and mice

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Speaker 5: who sleep during the day. So there are some things

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Speaker 5: that are flipped. The switch is flipped. But even for

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Speaker 5: rats and mice, Melatonin, which is the hormone of darkness,

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Speaker 5: is higher during the night when they're awake and active.

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Speaker 3: So I have a question based on a tiny amount

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Speaker 3: of anecdotal data. When I go to sleep, my dog

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Speaker 3: is in one place, and if I ever wake up

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Speaker 3: in the middle of the night, he's sleeping in another place,

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Speaker 3: And in the morning he's in a third place because

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Speaker 3: he has like nineteen different places he likes to sleep

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Speaker 3: in our house. Okay, so my question to you is

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Speaker 3: what is my dog doing all night? Does he just

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Speaker 3: take naps and then move around? Is he, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: up learning how to make souflets in the middle of

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Speaker 3: the night. Like, why don't dogs sleep all the way

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Speaker 3: through the night? What's going on in my house? Gina?

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Speaker 5: Tell me dogs and cats predators actually sleep a lot

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Speaker 5: more than prey species do. They sleep about sixteen hours

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Speaker 5: a day in a nice home environment. So, yes, your

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Speaker 5: dog is waking up more than you do, probably at

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Speaker 5: night and maybe going to get some water or just

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Speaker 5: checking out the house and finding a cooler place to sleep.

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Speaker 5: But if you were to put a camera on your dog,

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Speaker 5: your dog isn't roaming around and hunting like a cat.

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Speaker 5: A cat is more crepuscular, so they have a lot

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Speaker 5: of activity in the morning and in the evening, but

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Speaker 5: they sleep a lot during the day, and they sleep

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Speaker 5: a lot during the night as well. But dogs are

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Speaker 5: a lot more diurnal like we are. So, yeah, your

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Speaker 5: dog is pretty much rest assured, sleeping all night, just

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Speaker 5: getting up once in a while when they're uncomfortable or

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Speaker 5: they're done with the sleep cycle.

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Speaker 3: I was kind of hoping he was writing like the

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Speaker 3: great American novel in the middle.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so my brain is a little bit stuck on

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Speaker 2: the mushroom thing, and it's making me wonder how do

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Speaker 2: we define sleep? Because you know, I thought maybe we

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Speaker 2: would define it by like brain waves or things that

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't be measuring in a mushroom. So let's let's

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Speaker 2: step back even farther than how do we define sleep?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so there are animals we can't define sleep via

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Speaker 5: brain waves because their brain isn't organized the same way

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Speaker 5: ours is. In order to be able to see those

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Speaker 5: brain waves, we have to have an alignment of neurons,

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Speaker 5: because each neuron has you know, a t any little

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Speaker 5: electrical signal, and when they're all aligned in the same orientation,

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Speaker 5: you can see that electrical signal sums, and we can

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Speaker 5: see it from a place as distant as the surface

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Speaker 5: of your scalp. There are three layers of skin, four

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Speaker 5: layers of skin actually between your actual brain cells and

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Speaker 5: the electrode, plus bone and water. So you can imagine

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Speaker 5: that that signal would be reduced the further distance you

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Speaker 5: are away from your brain.

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Speaker 3: So that's what brain waves are. Sorry to interrupt, I

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Speaker 3: just I've always wondered brainwaves are measurement of the electrical

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Speaker 3: field caused by firing neurons.

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Speaker 5: Yes, exactly. They actually don't even have to fire. The

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Speaker 5: membrane potential just has to depolarize or hyperpolarize so become

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Speaker 5: more positive or negative.

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Speaker 3: It's amazing there's any signal in there at all. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: why are the neurons oriented physically in the same way

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Speaker 3: so that they can constructively build a signal? That's incredible.

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Speaker 5: Yet why is a great question. I don't know the

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Speaker 5: answer to that, but they are the biggest neurons in

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Speaker 5: our brain. Are these things in our cortex called pyramidal cells,

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Speaker 5: which are shaped like pyramids, which is why they're called

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Speaker 5: parametal cells, And they are just oriented on the folds

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Speaker 5: of our brain facing outward, and there are tufts of

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Speaker 5: antenna at every pole of the pyramid, and the ones

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Speaker 5: at the base are called baseler dendrites, and the ones

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Speaker 5: at the top are called aprical dendrites. And the apical

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Speaker 5: dendrites are the ones that reach all the way to

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Speaker 5: the very surface of our brain, and they are the

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Speaker 5: ones that get communication from other areas of our cortex.

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Speaker 5: So when we're thinking thoughts, that's all come again our

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Speaker 5: apical dendrites. When we're feeling feelings that are coming from

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Speaker 5: the outside, like our sensations, they come in at the

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Speaker 5: baselin drites, and the ones that are closest to the

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Speaker 5: apical dendrites, not the distant ones, So they're just all

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Speaker 5: aligned like that in our stray of our cortex, or

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Speaker 5: as you've probably seen them, they're folded. So it's only

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Speaker 5: at the top of those striations that you can get

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Speaker 5: the electrodes and see what's going on. So we can

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Speaker 5: with our electrical EEG electrodes, you can only see a

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Speaker 5: small percentage of what's going on in our brains, and

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Speaker 5: only what's at the surface because as the distance increases,

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Speaker 5: the signal decreases. Exponentially.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we use that information to define sleep

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Speaker 2: in organisms where that works. Yes, is that otherwise what

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Speaker 2: kinds of things would we be looking for in organisms

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Speaker 2: that have a more like distributed nervous system where it's

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Speaker 2: harder to do that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So organisms like the octopus, it has more ganglia, like,

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Speaker 5: it doesn't have a cortex like we have. And so

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Speaker 5: the neurons are there, of course they're there. They are

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Speaker 5: all over their legs and central brain area, but they're

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Speaker 5: organized in very kind of more random fashion. So even

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Speaker 5: though they're just as electrically active as ours our, the

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Speaker 5: electricity you know, is going in different directions and so

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Speaker 5: it doesn't summate, so we can't really see them with electrodes.

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Speaker 5: So instead we need behavioral measures. And so animals usually

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Speaker 5: have a typical sleeping position or positions. Even the sea

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Speaker 5: elegans worm has this typical sleeping position and they sleep

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Speaker 5: like it's called a shepherd's hook. It looks kind of

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Speaker 5: like a question mark. That's their sleeping position. It's kind

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Speaker 5: of cute. Yeah, it's really cute. And then they're all

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Speaker 5: these animals are less sensitive to what's coming in from

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Speaker 5: the outside, so I wouldn't suggest this, but you can

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Speaker 5: tap on your fish tank at night and the fish

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Speaker 5: won't respond the same way that they respond during the day.

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Speaker 5: During the day they'll respond right away and swim around,

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Speaker 5: but at night they'll just sit there and maybe a

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Speaker 5: few seconds later they'll sort of arouse and respond. So

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Speaker 5: they're less responsive to the outside world. But it is

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Speaker 5: a reversible state. To determine and distinguish it from coma,

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Speaker 5: it's homeostatically regulated, which means that all animals that you

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Speaker 5: deprive of sleep will try and get more sleep the

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Speaker 5: next opportunity they have. So there is a great study

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Speaker 5: of jellyfish, which don't have a central nervous system either

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Speaker 5: at cal Tech that showed that these cassiopeia, which are

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Speaker 5: these upside down jellyfish sleep at night like we would expect,

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Speaker 5: and what they do is they find the bottom of

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Speaker 5: the tank or whatever they find something to rest on

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Speaker 5: to sleep, and then they just start pulsing more slowly.

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Speaker 5: And then if you wake them up a bunch of

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Speaker 5: times at night by giving them a jet of water

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Speaker 5: or something to deserve them from their sleeping position, they

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Speaker 5: will wake up, pulse faster, try and find the bottom

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Speaker 5: again and go right back to sleep. And if you

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Speaker 5: do that all night long, the next day they'll map

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Speaker 5: a lot more. WHOA, I know.

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Speaker 3: Do you need some sort of ethics review to torture

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Speaker 3: these jellyfish this way all night long?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 3: Is that a yes or no?

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Speaker 5: I wasn't sure, no, but thankfully not.

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Speaker 2: How many people are doing this so if they had vertebrae,

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Speaker 2: you would have to yeah, right, exactly exactly.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I see, So rats have ethical protection, but jellyfish

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Speaker 3: you can torture as much as you like all their

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Speaker 3: larve right right.

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Speaker 2: Wow, we would not call it torture, Daniel, the physicists.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to speak here on behalf of the jellyfish.

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Speaker 3: This sounds like torture to me. You come in my

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Speaker 3: room and wake me up ten times a midd of

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Speaker 3: the night, I'm not going to be very pleasant the

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Speaker 3: next day. I'm going to do more than just nap,

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you that much.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you can't get their consent with people. You know,

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Speaker 5: you get people volunteering for these kinds of studies all

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Speaker 5: the time, and yeah it's not great, but they you know,

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Speaker 5: they like contributing to our knowledge of what sleep is

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Speaker 5: about and seeing what their own sleeper is like. We

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Speaker 5: can't give the same feedback to jellyfish, but we do

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Speaker 5: allow them to sleep the next day nop as much

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Speaker 5: as you want. You can also give them caffeine. It

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Speaker 5: works the same way. It keeps them up and makes

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Speaker 5: them more active. Interestingly, in that study of jellyfish sleep,

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Speaker 5: they found that they pulse more slowly at night. If

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Speaker 5: you wake them up, they pulse faster. But in a

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Speaker 5: I think it was figure two of that paper they

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Speaker 5: don't even describe. There are periods of time when they're

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Speaker 5: not pulsing at all, which is, you know, like not

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Speaker 5: breathing essentially for twenty or thirty seconds at a time,

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Speaker 5: and that could mirror the second stage of sleep, which

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Speaker 5: I'm sure we're going to get into later, which is

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Speaker 5: our dream stage at sleep, and in order to not

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Speaker 5: act out our active dreams, we actively inhibit all of

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Speaker 5: our muscles, not our breathing muscles, thankfully, not our heart muscles, thankfully,

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Speaker 5: but all of our anti gravity muscles, so that we

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Speaker 5: are acting out our dreams. And it seems like jellyfish

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Speaker 5: have the same kind of called atonia no muscle tone,

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Speaker 5: that we have, and they do it periodically throughout the night.

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Speaker 5: The authors of that paper didn't describe a second state

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Speaker 5: of sleep for jellyfish because I guess they just wanted

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Speaker 5: to avoid controversy, or maybe they had it in the

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Speaker 5: original draft and reviewers just said you need more evidence.

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Speaker 5: But also spiders and octopus they all have this second

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Speaker 5: stage of sleep. And when spiders have atonia, what do

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Speaker 5: you imagine that they look like?

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Speaker 1: Do they look like the dead dried up?

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Speaker 5: Yes? Really they do.

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Speaker 2: Wait, so like if I find a black widow in

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Speaker 2: my garage and it's all dried up, it might just

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Speaker 2: be sleeping and not dad.

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Speaker 5: It might just be sleeping.

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Speaker 2: Oh interesting, that's a little scary.

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Speaker 5: Okay, it might be in that RAM sleep. Now. We

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Speaker 5: call it ram sleep in humans because we have rapid

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Speaker 5: eye movements and that corresponds with our dreaming. Actually, spiders

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Speaker 5: also have rapid eye movements during that state.

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Speaker 1: And do all of their eyes move?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, their eyes move. You can only see it in

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Speaker 5: very young spiders where they don't have the dark yet coloring,

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Speaker 5: so you can see through their carapace and see their

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Speaker 5: eyes moving and also coolly. When we're in rams sleep,

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Speaker 5: our eyes don't always move conjointly like if they do

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Speaker 5: when we're awake, so we could have one eye moving

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Speaker 5: this way and it's just not for some reason. Maybe

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Speaker 5: our brainstem areas that are helping our eyes track the

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Speaker 5: world are not coordinated when we're in reun sleep. And

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Speaker 5: that's true at spiders as well. So during wakefulness their

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Speaker 5: eyes move together in a ram sleep state, which we

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Speaker 5: can call rams sleep, and spiders, because their eyes are

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Speaker 5: also rapidly moving, their eyes don't move conjointly. In cockroaches

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Speaker 5: they have rapid intennel movement sleep, so they're antenna well

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Speaker 5: you know, hu jiggle.

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Speaker 3: That almost sounds cute wow.

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Speaker 5: And bees as well. Bees will have rapid intennel movements sleep.

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Speaker 2: And do we have evidence for these animals that they're

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Speaker 2: also consolidating memories while they're sleeping or do we think

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Speaker 2: they're doing something different.

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Speaker 5: I don't think they're doing something different, for example, in

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Speaker 5: the act, so they don't. Actually I don't know if

438
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 5: anybody's looked at the eye movements of octopuses. I think

439
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 5: probably they have, and they probably do move as I recall,

440
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,920
Speaker 5: But any case, what they do, one of the ways

441
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 5: you can tell they're in rem sleep is that they

442
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 5: flash their colors, so their camouflage gets flashy, like, for example,

443
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 5: a dog twitching its pause.

444
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 3: That sounds like science fiction. That's crazy, Yeah, I.

445
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 5: Know it is crazy. So they have a sleeping position too.

446
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 5: They don't like to sleep except if they're safe, like

447
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 5: crawled into a hole in a rock or something like that,

448
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 5: because they also are prey for other sea animals, so

449
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 5: they try and get to a safe place and a

450
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 5: place where when they're flashing they can't be seen.

451
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, i'd want to hide that color party, yeah, for

452
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 2: sure from predators.

453
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.

454
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 3: So this has been a fascinating tour of sleep across

455
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 3: the animal kingdom and the fungal kingdom and all sorts

456
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 3: of crazy stuff. But it sounds to me like the

457
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: fundamental answer is that we don't really know what sleep is.

458
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 3: Is we have this thing in humans we call sleep,

459
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 3: and we can find correlated activities and other creatures that

460
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 3: are not the same because they have different brains and

461
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,479
Speaker 3: different bodies, but we still call them sleep. What is

462
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 3: the thing we can say unifies sleep across all of

463
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 3: these folks. How do we know we're not just projecting

464
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 3: our human experience onto mushrooms and black widows?

465
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 5: Right? Well, I think the less responsive to the environment.

466
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 5: You're not reproducing, you're not ingesting food. Actually in ungulates,

467
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,120
Speaker 5: let's go back to ungulates for a second. I think

468
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 5: that was studied in I think it was camels ruminants,

469
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 5: not ungulates ruminants. So they were thought to sleep a

470
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 5: lot less because they're actively chewing a lot. But in

471
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 5: fact they can chew while they're asleep. So it is

472
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 5: a really good question.

473
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: WHOA, I'm lucky I can't chew while I'm asleep. I

474
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: know i'd get myself in trouble. I do love food.

475
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, well it's kind of like tea grinding, I guess

476
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 5: in humans, but you know they have something to chew

477
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 5: on their cud. So that's a really good question. And

478
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 5: I think that it's still controversial, Daniel, because if you

479
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 5: define it behaviorally, you would say someone who's sleepwalking isn't

480
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 5: sleeping because they're walking. But in fact we know because

481
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 5: we can measure eeg that they are asleep while they're sleepwalking.

482
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 5: So it is tricky. But we do also know that

483
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 5: the brain at least is doing something wildly different, wildly

484
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 5: different than when we're awake. We are not processing the

485
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 5: outside world in the slow wave state of sleep, which

486
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 5: is one of the two states. Our brain activity electrically

487
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 5: is periodically active and inactive, and the frequency is about

488
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 5: one hurts. So we have this blip of activity and

489
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 5: then a lot of silence, and this silence is something

490
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 5: you never see during wakefulness, and then a little blip

491
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 5: of activity and then a lot of silence, And so

492
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 5: consciousness is probably completely severed during those periods of time

493
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 5: when the brain is completely inactive, and those little blips

494
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 5: of activity one hundred milliseconds long or so are probably

495
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 5: too short to be called consciousness and certainly too short

496
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 5: to write memories into any long term stores. So that's

497
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 5: probably why we consider ourselves unconscious. During rem sleep, it's

498
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 5: an entirely different state. The brain is super active, but

499
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 5: that activity is all internally focused, so not focused on

500
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 5: what the outside world is, but this inside reality. And

501
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 5: that's probably the case of octopuses when they're flashing their camouflage.

502
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 3: All right, So that's been a fascinating discussion of meditative

503
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: mushrooms and napping black widows. When we get back, let's

504
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 3: talk more about what's happening while we sleep and what

505
00:25:52,359 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 3: it means to dream.

506
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: All right, So I remember hearing that something like dolphins

507
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 2: and birds sleep with half of their brain at a time,

508
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 2: which sounds great because then you can be awake. But anyway,

509
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: so my question is is that actually happening, and what

510
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: does that look like and what are the like bonuses

511
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: or drawbacks of that technique.

512
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 5: Right, Well, if you're a dolphin, the bonuses that you

513
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 5: can continue to breathe all night long while you're sleeping solid,

514
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 5: so the half of your brain that's awake keeps the

515
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 5: dolphins swimming at the surface and able to breathe all

516
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 5: night long. They switch sides, so one half of the

517
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 5: brain is sleeping for a while and then the other

518
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 5: half of the brain sleeps for the rest of the

519
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 5: time and just switch back and forth. Interestingly that the

520
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 5: one neurochemical that seems to be changing when the consciousness

521
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 5: side changes is a seat of coline, which is a

522
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 5: neurotransmitter that goes all over the brain from one area

523
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 5: of the brain stem and it's considered to be the

524
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 5: searchlight of consciousness. So when you're thinking about walking upstairs,

525
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 5: a seedal coline goes to the motor areas that are

526
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 5: responsible for your feet walking upstairs, and when you're thinking

527
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 5: about doing math, A set of coline goes to the

528
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 5: math areas of your brain and away from the walking upstairs.

529
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 5: If you're doing walking upstairs and doing math at the

530
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 5: same time, of course, the seat of colon is in

531
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 5: both places.

532
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: And you're probably gonna fall fall anyway.

533
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 5: So for dolphins fur seals that are out hunting for

534
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 5: long periods of time and not accessing land for several weeks,

535
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 5: they can also sleep un a hemispherically. Whales sleep, you know, hemispherically.

536
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 5: And it's true, the side that's a sleep that doesn't

537
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 5: have these heatal cooline has the big slow waves of unconsciousness,

538
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 5: and the side that's awake looks like, you know, awake,

539
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 5: and the eye is open on that side and all

540
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 5: of that. So actually, so we control our brains. This

541
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 5: is a little confusing. Our left side of our brain

542
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 5: controls the right side of our bodies. So if the

543
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 5: left side of the brain is awake, the right eye

544
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 5: is open and watching the world around them, and vice versa.

545
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 5: But so rim sleep rapid I'm of sleep. The one

546
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 5: that I talked about where you have atonia seems to

547
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 5: occur only very briefly in these animals that are uni

548
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 5: hemispherically sleeping, So there's something different about rimsleep that really

549
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 5: requires atonia, and maybe that's why it's only fifteen seconds

550
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 5: long in the dolphin. And we haven't recorded the EEG

551
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 5: the electrodecephalogram from dolphins or whales. It's a little more difficult.

552
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 5: There's a lot of fat between, you know, to help

553
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 5: them float between their skin and their brain, and no

554
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 5: one has attempted it. But we do have another state

555
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 5: of sleep in whales at least, and I don't know

556
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 5: if it's been observed in dolphins. It would be interesting

557
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 5: to see, but where they're not just floating at the

558
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 5: surface and breathing and sleeping one hemisphere at a time,

559
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 5: but they're actually below the surface instead of a horizontal position,

560
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 5: in a vertical position either head down or head up.

561
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 5: And usually what they do is they start with head

562
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 5: down and then as the waves and tides move their

563
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 5: atonic bodies, they eventually sort of go to the head

564
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 5: up position. It's just they have a lot of fat

565
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 5: in the head. That's the one that's the more neutral position,

566
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 5: and they will do that for twenty minutes at a time,

567
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 5: and that's where their body is completely also atonic, and

568
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 5: then they swim to the surface and breathe and wake

569
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 5: up and breathe again.

570
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: But I'm not sure I follow the basic idea of

571
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 3: why some animals do this and some don't. You said,

572
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: you know, dolphins need to keep swimming and breathing, but

573
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 3: we also need to keep breathing while we're asleep. Why

574
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 3: don't we do this as well.

575
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 5: Right, because well, we can breathe while we're asleep without

576
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 5: having to swim, you know, we just you know. So, Also,

577
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 5: dolphins in Wales breathe voluntarily, so it actually requires a

578
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 5: voluntary sort of waking brain to breathe, whereas we breathe

579
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 5: involuntarily when we go unconscious. If we were holding our

580
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 5: breath before we went unconscious, we will start breathing again.

581
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 3: And whales and dolphins have ancestors that were land animals, right,

582
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 3: which probably slept more like us. How do you think

583
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 3: that evolution happened? How do you evolve this kind of thing?

584
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 5: Right? I don't know. It's incredible, you know the differences

585
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 5: between species. It's really a beautiful and amazing thing.

586
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: So you mentioned that seals when they go off on

587
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: long foraging trips can do uni hemispheric sleep? Do they

588
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: alternate between un a hemispheric sleep and then everything? Yeah,

589
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: like the whole brain going, oh wow, they can do both.

590
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, when they're on what land they do by you know,

591
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 5: whole brain sleep.

592
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: Wow.

593
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 5: Yeah. And there's an elephant seal that isn't found to

594
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 5: do in a hemispheric sleep, either on land or at sea,

595
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 5: And so that was used to argue that maybe sleep

596
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 5: isn't necessary because they would be out there foraging for

597
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks and they're not sleeping for those

598
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 5: couple of weeks, and then they go back to land

599
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 5: and they don't have homeostatic rebound like they had been

600
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 5: sleep deprived for a couple of weeks. So it was

601
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 5: thought that maybe these are animals that don't need to sleep,

602
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 5: and maybe sleep isn't necessary or at least not always

603
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 5: homeistatically regulated. But a few years ago someone at EC

604
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 5: Santa Cruz outfitted these elephant seals with head caps so

605
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 5: they could record from their brains while they're out there swimming,

606
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 5: and they found that in fact, these head caps also

607
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 5: had GPS. They found that they actually do sleep while

608
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 5: they're out there foraging, and what they do is they

609
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 5: take a deep breath, you know, lots of deep breath.

610
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 5: They swim down, down, down to a depth beneath where

611
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 5: sharks and killer whales would predate them and where if

612
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 5: they fall asleep, and when they fall asleep, they start

613
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 5: sinking instead of floating back up. And so what they

614
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 5: do is they go into slow wave sleep, and they

615
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 5: have these beautiful slow waves and they're just kind of

616
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 5: coasting down as they go into slow wave sleep. And

617
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 5: then when they go into rem sleep with the atonia,

618
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 5: whatever body position they're in, if it's less than perfectly straight,

619
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 5: which always is going to be less than perfectly straight,

620
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 5: they'll start spiraling. You know. The fin that's down will

621
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 5: make them spiral. So they will spiral down and down

622
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 5: and down until they hit the ocean floor, or until

623
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 5: about seven or eight minutes have passed and they start

624
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 5: the oxygen need starts giving, making them decide that they

625
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 5: need to wake up. And so they wake up and

626
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 5: start swimming up to the surface. And they even while

627
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 5: they're swim into the surface, they can hold their breath

628
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 5: for all long time. So even when they're swimming to

629
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 5: the surface, they could have little naps and then swim

630
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 5: some more and yeah, it's super cool. So really, sleep

631
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 5: has been found in every animal, and in every animal

632
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 5: we look closely enough, seems to have these two stages

633
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 5: of sleep, so both stages, and both stages are independently regulated,

634
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 5: so both stages seem to be important.

635
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: So wait, when one hemisphere is asleep, I assume that

636
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: they're less good at doing like, they can't have social

637
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: interactions or anything like that. They're just watching out for

638
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: predators and trying to breathe.

639
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: Is that right?

640
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 5: Yes? Okay, I think so, Oh yeah, we don't see

641
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 5: social behaviors which would take the whole body. I suppose

642
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 5: they could flat one fin waving hey guys, taking a nap.

643
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 3: Okay, And it makes sense to me that predators might

644
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 3: sleep like they eat very calorie rich food, they don't

645
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 3: need to move around their conserving energy. But pray. It

646
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: seems to be like a huge disadvantage to ever go

647
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 3: to sleep.

648
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 5: That's right.

649
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: Does that mean that it must be fundamentally important that

650
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: you can't escape at this no evolutionary path away from it.

651
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 5: I think that's what it means. Yes, So I would

652
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 5: love to see sleep in the pond organism that can

653
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 5: survive in space and radiation tartar grade tartar grades. I

654
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 5: would love somebody to do with sleep in tartar grade

655
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 5: study because because they survive so well despite all of

656
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 5: these different assaults on them, they can they have amazing

657
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 5: abilities to rebuild broken double stranded breaks in their DNA,

658
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 5: which seems to be also one of the functions for

659
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 5: sleep is to rebuild a double standard breaks in our DNA.

660
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 5: So another animal that seems to be really good at

661
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 5: repairing their DNA is the naked mole rat, which are

662
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 5: really ugly or cute whatever you think.

663
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 3: It's a personality test. Actually what the you like the

664
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 3: naked mole rat?

665
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 5: It is. So there are some studies done in San

666
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 5: Diego and then some more studies done in Russia that

667
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 5: of sleep in the naked mole rat, and they seem

668
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 5: to sleep so much more than the rest of us.

669
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 5: And the naked mole rat. And like other rats which

670
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 5: live about two years, the naked mole rat can live

671
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 5: thirty five years and when they die it's usually from

672
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 5: accidents or injuries or something like that. So why do

673
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 5: they live so much longer? Well, they have this superior

674
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 5: ability to repair their double stranded breaks in DNA and

675
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 5: their rim sleep is about fifty percent of their sleep,

676
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 5: which as for us, it's about twenty five percent on

677
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 5: a good day. For rats and mice it's more like

678
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 5: twelve fifteen percent, but with naked mole rats it's fifty percent.

679
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 5: And that's as much RAM sleep as we get as babies.

680
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 5: So when we are, you know, learning so much from

681
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 5: our environment. And actually I want to give you another factoid,

682
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 5: which is learning requires double stranded breaks in our DNA,

683
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 5: So every time we learn, we're breaking our DNA in

684
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 5: order to do that. So, yes, I know why, I've

685
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 5: never heard that before. Yeah, I don't know why. I

686
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 5: don't know why. But sleep helps repair repair that and

687
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 5: so so what are naked mole rats doing there? Babies

688
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 5: are learning, of course a ton, right and there they

689
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 5: have about fifty percent when they're born. So why are

690
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 5: naked mole rats having so much rem all through their lives?

691
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 5: Are they learning a lot? And there's also seem to

692
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 5: be any evidence that they're so much smarter than anybody else.

693
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 3: They're writing the great American novel.

694
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 5: Of course, baby writing the American novel, but the only

695
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 5: they can read.

696
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 3: So you have a lot of questions about sleep and

697
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 3: all these creatures any humans. Tell us a little bit

698
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 3: about how we've learned these things, like experiments have you done?

699
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 3: How do we know these things? Yeah, other than torturing jellyfish?

700
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 5: Right, watching, right, watching? Just anybody can be a scientist,

701
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 5: as you know, you just need to. You need to

702
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 5: observe the world around you, ask questions and try and

703
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 5: answer them by perturbing that that universe and seeing what happens.

704
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 5: So we knowie, sleep is homiostatically regulated, even in ourselves

705
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 5: because when we get less of it one night, we

706
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 5: are sleepier the next day our drive to sleep is higher.

707
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 5: But yes, there have been some key experiments throughout history.

708
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 5: For example, the discovery of rapid I movement sleep was

709
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,439
Speaker 5: probably not the discovery of rapid I sleep at Rapit

710
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 5: the first report of rappidive I haven't sleep that other

711
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 5: people could read, and that was an observation made by

712
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 5: at the University of Chicago by a research scientist who

713
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 5: is actually the trainee of another research who was studying sleep. Yes,

714
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 5: had EEG electrodes on people's brains, and this trainee said, hey,

715
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 5: there seems to be this second state where eyes are

716
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 5: moving and there's a bit of twitching and respiration changes,

717
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 5: and the principal investigator the PI didn't believe it, you know, like, yeah,

718
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 5: it's just a little bit of wakefulness or something else.

719
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 5: Sleep is just one thing, and it's a we thought

720
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 5: at that time it was a disconnect from the world

721
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 5: and it was saving energy, which doesn't appear to be

722
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 5: very true. Actually. So this trainee hooked up the sun

723
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 5: of the PI and all night long. And this was

724
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 5: a young kid, I think ten years old or younger,

725
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 5: who has more rem sleep and is very thoroughly asleep.

726
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 5: Kids for it's hard to disturb them. It's hard to

727
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 5: wake them up out of sleep. Yeah, And so showed

728
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 5: the record to the PA, this is your son. Look

729
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 5: at these states, and the p I said, wait a minute,

730
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 5: and Edison's sleep another night and watched them and you know,

731
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 5: tried to poke them awake during their rem sleep. When

732
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 5: he thought that one must have been a wakefulness, the

733
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 5: sun was quite quite heavily asleep, and realized that, okay,

734
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 5: there may be you know, maybe there's something to this,

735
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 5: maybe there's a second state of sleep. So it's kind

736
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 5: of you know, observations like this, someone saying, hey, this

737
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 5: is weird. This doesn't follow my hypothesis is what I

738
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 5: thought would happen, you know, and then pursuing that thing

739
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 5: that's weird to its end to see what the answers

740
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 5: are for humans.

741
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 3: You're obviously limited in the experiments you can do. I

742
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 3: want to ask you a weird question. Imagine that we're

743
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 3: not limited.

744
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: I think that's the only kind of question you asked me.

745
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 3: I know this one's going to feel a little extra weird.

746
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 3: Imagine you weren't limited by any ethical concerns and you

747
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 3: only had scientific questions. What experiments would you do to

748
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 3: learn more about sleep? You know, slicing brains open, torturing people,

749
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 3: sticking things inside them. I don't know. What would you

750
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 3: do just from a scientific point of view to learn

751
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 3: about sleep? What experiments do you wish you could do?

752
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, if it weren't for the dangers involved,

753
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 5: I would put electrodes in my own brain, a ton

754
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 5: of them. I would put a thousand of them in

755
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 5: my own brain. Because one of the things that we

756
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 5: have discovered from people with electrodes in their brain, and

757
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 5: they put electrodes in their brain because they want to

758
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 5: find out where epilepsy is starting. So that they can

759
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 5: go in and just take out that little section of

760
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 5: brain which is generating epilepsy all over the brain. So

761
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 5: when we have looked at twelve of those people who

762
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 5: had electrodes already implanted in their brain, and we find that,

763
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 5: in fact, sleep isn't a whole brain phenomenon one third

764
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 5: of the time. For example, your hippocampus, which is involved

765
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 5: in recording memories in the first place and then consolidating

766
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 5: those memories to other parts of the brain. Here hip

767
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 5: campus can be an entirely different sleep state than the

768
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 5: cortex is, and it's about a third of the night

769
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 5: that it's in an entirely different state. So, for example,

770
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,439
Speaker 5: you hip the campus can go into rapid eye movement

771
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 5: sleep faster and better and longer than the cortext does.

772
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 5: It can go to sleep actually the first place, sooner

773
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 5: than the rest of the cortext does. So you could

774
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 5: be in bed reading a book and about two minutes

775
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 5: on average before you're actually fall asleep and the book

776
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 5: hits your face or whatever it is, your hippa campus

777
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 5: is already asleep. It's not going to remember those that

778
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 5: last page that you read. You can also tell when

779
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 5: you're falling asleep, you have to reread the same patches

780
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 5: again and again. What was that? I don't know, you know, ugh,

781
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 5: what was that? And that's called sleep onset amnesia. And

782
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 5: we found in people that your hipp a campus can

783
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 5: be asleep for twenty whole minutes before the rest of

784
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 5: your rain is asleep. So don't have a critical conversation

785
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 5: with your bed partner while they're trying to fall asleep,

786
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 5: because it's possible they will not remember the conversation the

787
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 5: next day at all.

788
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you have just inserted yourself in my marriage.

789
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 3: I have a no important conversation after ten pm rule.

790
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 3: There you go, which is controversial in my marriage.

791
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: It seems reasonable.

792
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,879
Speaker 2: I'm almost always asleep by ten pm, so ZECH would

793
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: not make much progress anyway.

794
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 3: But now I have a scientific foundation for winning.

795
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 5: You do you do?

796
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: Thank you, Gina?

797
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 4: Yes?

798
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 1: And well science.

799
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 5: Yes.

800
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: All right, Let's hope we help some other marriages as well.

801
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: And when we come back, we will talk about dreams. Okay,

802
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 2: we're back and we are finally going to answer are

803
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 2: our listeners questions about dreams?

804
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: So Gin know, when do we dream? And why do

805
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: we dream? Tell us about dreams?

806
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 5: It's a great question, and we can only study dreams

807
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 5: in people because we can only ask people about their dreams.

808
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 5: It's a hard one because you can only ask people

809
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 5: about their dreams when they're awake, so it's kind of

810
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 5: a retrospective study rather than a live study. However, we

811
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 5: do dream most when we're in rapid I'm at sleep,

812
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 5: when our bodies are actively inhibited from acting out those dreams.

813
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 5: So that's a good thing.

814
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 3: But how do you know that if you can only

815
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 3: ask people about their dreams later.

816
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, you just wake them up out of different stages

817
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 5: of sleep, and when you wake them up out of

818
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 5: round sleep, they're most likely to report having had a dream,

819
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 5: and the dream is most likely to be the most

820
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,439
Speaker 5: bizarre and lengthy. So if you wake them up out

821
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 5: of stage two sleep, which is not the deep slow

822
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 5: wave unconscious state, but rather the first state you go

823
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,959
Speaker 5: into when you're sleep, and then the state that you

824
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 5: go into right before rem sleep, so it's called a

825
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 5: transition to rem there are more dreams, but they are

826
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 5: usually very very brief, also bizarre, but they're not long stories.

827
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 5: Usually they're just short, little snippets. So when we wake

828
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 5: people up out of deep slowly sleep, which is hard

829
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 5: to do because there's a lot of sleep inertia. And

830
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 5: you ask someone what they were dreaming, they'll say, I

831
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 5: have no idea, I wasn't dreaming anything. Let me go

832
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 5: back to sleep, you know, grunt and turnover. Right. It

833
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 5: doesn't mean that definitively people aren't dreaming as slowly sleep.

834
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 5: It might just be that they are not remembering it

835
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 5: when we wake them up.

836
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 3: But do you have any way to know that their reactions,

837
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 3: or their stories, or their retelling of their dreams correlated

838
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 3: at all to their real dreams.

839
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, so there is some evidence, but it's controversial, or

840
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 5: it has been controversial, because there was this idea of

841
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 5: activation synthesis, so that in fact, you just have little

842
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 5: blips of randomness when you're an in ram sleep and

843
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 5: then when you're awake. Because we don't like little blips

844
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 5: of randomness, we sew them into a story. And that

845
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 5: dream isn't actually a story, but we've sewn them into

846
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 5: a story. And there's some a little bit of evidence

847
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 5: for that. For example, if you have an alarm waking

848
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 5: you up, you will have a dream that can incorporate

849
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 5: that alarm. Not everybody does, but you can have a

850
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 5: dream that incorporates that alarm that starts before the alarm

851
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 5: started ringing. Like, for example, in your dream, your alarm

852
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 5: is a ticking bomb and you have to diffuse it.

853
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,959
Speaker 5: But in your dream, you're coming up up on the

854
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 5: bomb and then you start hearing the ticking And so

855
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 5: is it that you've retroactively dreamt about the silence before

856
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 5: the alarm starts ringing in order to make this a

857
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 5: story or is it that you know We don't know

858
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 5: the answer to that. But interestingly, because we can put

859
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 5: electrodes in the brains of rats, actually I want to

860
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 5: tell you that it doesn't hurt to have an electrode

861
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 5: in your brain. With these people with electrodes in their

862
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 5: brain for epilepsy will not report any having any pain.

863
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 5: Lead actually, strangely, don't have sensory structures in our brain

864
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 5: to sense what's there. So rats with electrodes in the

865
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 5: brain will not know that they've got electrodes in their brain,

866
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,919
Speaker 5: and they will sleep wonderfully. They will sleep beautifully, and

867
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 5: you can see because you can control what happens to

868
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 5: a rat during the days. You know, rats exploring a

869
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 5: maze during the day and they're finding food in your maize.

870
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 5: They will re dream about that maze. They will reactivate

871
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 5: the same neurons that are active in a particular order

872
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 5: during the day will reactivate in that order during their

873
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 5: dream state of rapid eye movements sleep. And you'd say,

874
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 5: why would they dream about the same thing that they

875
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 5: were doing during the day. Well, they have a pretty

876
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 5: boring life except for that exciting running time, and so

877
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 5: they're much more likely to activate that particular dream. But

878
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 5: there are a lot of times in rem sleep where

879
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 5: they're not activating that daze. And so what are they

880
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 5: dreaming about? We don't know. We would have to record

881
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 5: every minute of their lives in order to see what

882
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 5: they're reactivating and what they're dreaming about. But we do

883
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 5: know that they do reactivate the maze, and interestingly, they

884
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 5: can reactivate the maze in the same order in which

885
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 5: they ran at during the day. But they can also

886
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 5: do bizarre things that they can't do during the day,

887
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 5: like leap from one side to the maze to the next,

888
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 5: like we can in our dreams. We can change scenes, right,

889
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 5: we can. You know, suddenly we're in a boat, you know,

890
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 5: versus before we were in a house. So and rats

891
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 5: can do the same thing. So we can't ask them

892
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 5: about their dreams, but we can see their brain activity

893
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 5: reactivating this reality that they were in the day before. Also,

894
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 5: we have this tiny little brainstem area that inhibits our

895
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 5: muscles when we're dreaming so that we don't act them out.

896
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 5: When that tiny area of the brain stem degenerates, we

897
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 5: act out our dreams. That's called RAM behavior disorder, and

898
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 5: people with that have to actually tie themselves down while

899
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 5: they sleep so they don't you know, hurt themselves because

900
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 5: you're completely insensitive to the world around you. You are

901
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 5: totally in your dream world and you could you know,

902
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 5: fall downstairs, or walk through a plate growth glass window,

903
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 5: or beat your bed partner because you're dreaming about, you know,

904
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 5: an alligator over the side of your canoe. So you

905
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 5: can also lesion that tiny little area of the brain

906
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 5: stem in a rat and see the rat act out

907
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 5: their dreams as well. So they will be you know,

908
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 5: cowering as though they're dreaming they're being predated upon there's

909
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 5: somebody spraying on them. They can fight, they can walk around,

910
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 5: they can you know, phantom eat if it's a I've

911
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,720
Speaker 5: seen the cats do it. They can you know, swat

912
00:48:55,760 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 5: at imaginary butterflies and also pounce on the imaginary prey.

913
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 5: So yeah, this is some evidence that all animals seem

914
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 5: to dream, including cephalopods which have this flashing of their

915
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 5: camouflage while they're in that state.

916
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 2: So we think that's a dream where their body is

917
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 2: physically responding as opposed to that's just okay, huh.

918
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 5: Yeah. So what is the origin of dreams? We don't know.

919
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 5: But there is another part of the brain stem that

920
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 5: only is active during rem sleep, so during this dream state,

921
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 5: and it's filled with big excitatory neurons that project all

922
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 5: over the brain, and it starts firing when we are

923
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 5: in that end to stage of sleep, which is the

924
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 5: state when if you wake someone up, they'll report little

925
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 5: short dreams but not long ones, and then it fires

926
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 5: like crazy when we're in ramsleep, and it might be

927
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 5: the origin of the internal origin of dreams. It's right

928
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 5: beneath an area of the brain brainstem called the locus

929
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 5: th realist, which gets all sensory information from the outside world,

930
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 5: and that is actively inhibited when we are in remsleep.

931
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 5: But just beneath that is this area that comes on

932
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 5: and comes alive when we're in dream state. So it

933
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 5: might be the way we feel things and hear things

934
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 5: and start speaking and all of that. Because this suberlist

935
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 5: area it's called subserulists projects all over our cortex and

936
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 5: we don't know because we haven't been able to control

937
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 5: which areas are active and which are not active in

938
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 5: the subscuos. To try and control and formulate a dream,

939
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 5: like an inception of a dream, we can't do that yet,

940
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 5: but maybe someday we will be able to do that.

941
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: Wow.

942
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 2: So there are a lot of people who are interested

943
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 2: in interpreting dreams and trying to decide like what they mean,

944
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: is there any hidden meanings in dreams or is it

945
00:50:58,120 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 2: what's the science there?

946
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 5: Again, that's really difficult because again you can only study

947
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 5: in waking people. But there is a reactivation of memories.

948
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 5: If you deprive someone a person of rem sleep, you

949
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 5: will get a much more pedantic mindset. You can't deprive

950
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,240
Speaker 5: the people of remsleep for very long. That's again independently

951
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 5: regulated and if given any nap opportunity. Normally, rem sleep

952
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,919
Speaker 5: comes after about ninety minutes or eighty minutes of sleep.

953
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 5: It's it follows slow wave sleep because your brain needs

954
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 5: to be in the perfect state temperature wise, et cetera,

955
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 5: in order to go into this dream state of sleep.

956
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,919
Speaker 5: But if you deprive someone of particularly that dream state

957
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 5: of sleep, they will go into rem sleep earlier and

958
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 5: earlier because and get more, They'll get more and more

959
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 5: of it, and then in fact, just at sleep on

960
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 5: set they can go into rem sleep. There does seem

961
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 5: to be a lot of anecdotal evidence that that dreams

962
00:51:56,239 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 5: do relate to things that we're experiencing, and for some

963
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 5: people more than others. A lot of people don't remember

964
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 5: their dreams at all, so they're not the ones to

965
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 5: study for this, but those who can remember their dreams

966
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 5: sometimes it. In fact, dreams do seem to relate to

967
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 5: the things that you've learned during the day or the

968
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 5: week before, the month before, and the bizarreness of dreams

969
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 5: seems to allow us to put things together. So we

970
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 5: wake up with an aha moment, not always, but sometimes

971
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 5: with an Aha moment where we've put things together that

972
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 5: we couldn't you know, our conscious brain just couldn't let

973
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 5: us put together. So the study of dreams and creativity

974
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 5: does show that people, for example, doing a task that

975
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 5: requires a creative insight in order to do it quickly.

976
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 5: About a third of the people doing this task get

977
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 5: the creative insight while they're awake and doing the task

978
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 5: in the first place. Two thirds of people don't see

979
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 5: the hidden rule that allows them to take the shortcut,

980
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 5: and of those, half of them through sleep wake up

981
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 5: and then can do the creative leap, and then a

982
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 5: one third seem to never get it so unfortunately, and

983
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 5: those that make that creative leap seem to have a

984
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 5: lot more activity in this area of the brain that

985
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 5: causes sleep spindles, which is related to these subsrulist area

986
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 5: which causes these this activation, this random activation during dreams.

987
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 3: Are you saying that people have this idea solve a

988
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 3: problem while they're asleep, and then they wake up and

989
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 3: they have the solution, or that the sleep is somehow

990
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 3: prepared their brain to be able to solve this problem.

991
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 5: It seems like they wake up with the solution so

992
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 5: that the first time that they're doing it, you know

993
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 5: they they've got it.

994
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 3: So it is possible to dream up the great American novel.

995
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 5: Yes, I think so, all right. There's one famous songwriter

996
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 5: who said that when he wakes up. If he doesn't

997
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 5: write down the song that he was dreaming about, God

998
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 5: will give it to Bob Dylan.

999
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: That's excellent.

1000
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 3: So what do we know about the cultural dependence of

1001
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 3: sleep and dreams? Do people sleep the same way around

1002
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 3: the world, Do they dream the same way? Do we

1003
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 3: have the same relationship with dreams around the world.

1004
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 5: There are cultures that have strong beliefs that these insights

1005
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 5: that come through dreams come from ancestors. That are you

1006
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 5: go to visit your ancestors and your dreams and they

1007
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 5: give you wisdom. Again, there's no scientific evidence, but there are,

1008
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 5: you know, cultural norms surrounding dreams that are different in

1009
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 5: different cultures. There's also cultural norms surrounding sleep in general

1010
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 5: that differ between different cultures. Some cultures don't value sleep

1011
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 5: at all. It's for the lazy, they believe, and there's

1012
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 5: nothing good happening except just turning off your brain and resting,

1013
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 5: and if you're tough, you can do without it. Other

1014
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 5: cultures have a much more an open or receptive view

1015
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 5: of sleep, and sleep is something they welcome each night

1016
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,479
Speaker 5: and you with open arms, because that's a time when

1017
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 5: you know, lots of things happened, like consulting with your

1018
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 5: ancestors or whatever it is. There's a really cool study

1019
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 5: in South America by a researcher who's actually at University

1020
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 5: of Washington in Seattle. He put sleep trackers on people

1021
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 5: in a village without any electricity in South America in

1022
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 5: the Amazon, and another set of sleep trackers on people

1023
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 5: with bare minimum electricity like a single light bulb and

1024
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 5: a ceiling, and then on people living in the city.

1025
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,919
Speaker 5: And he found that all of these cultures, no matter

1026
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 5: where they were living, sleep less during the full moon

1027
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 5: or the new moon. So he was tracking them for

1028
00:55:55,360 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 5: a full month and there's a statistical significant difference where

1029
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 5: people sleep less either the full moon or the new moon.

1030
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 5: And so you think it's not light because the new

1031
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 5: moon there's no you know, there's no moon and the

1032
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 5: only light you see the stars when you're out in

1033
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 5: the Amazon, if that at all, So it can't be

1034
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 5: light disturbance. And in fact the people in the city

1035
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 5: also these are college students, they typically spend very little

1036
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 5: time looking at the moon or thinking about the moon,

1037
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 5: so's it seems to be the only explanation that they

1038
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 5: could come up with in his paper is that the

1039
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 5: gravitational pull is stronger on the Earth during both a

1040
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 5: new moon and a full moon, and so maybe there's

1041
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 5: something have to do with gravity and sleepiness.

1042
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 3: Maybe that explains why we sleep worse at high altitudes.

1043
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 3: I always thought that was the oxygen.

1044
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, the oxygen definitely does disturb a sleep. Yeah, yeah,

1045
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 5: I don't know what.

1046
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 3: About people who have different sensations of the world. Dreams

1047
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 3: play a different role in folks who have always been blind, Yeah,

1048
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 3: always been deaf. Can people see in their dreams if

1049
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 3: they're blind.

1050
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 5: No, they do if they're not blind from birth, but

1051
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 5: if they're blind from birth, so no, it's different sensations

1052
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 5: that are that are activated in dreams.

1053
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: Daniel, do you want to ask your alien question?

1054
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 5: Oh?

1055
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 3: No, right, So we've asked you about whether sleep is

1056
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 3: something that's common across Earth creatures. How common do you

1057
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 3: think it is across the universe? When aliens come and visit,

1058
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 3: are they going to need to take naps in between

1059
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 3: our conversations or do you think this is something that

1060
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 3: happens only on Earth?

1061
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 5: Well, it does happen on Earth. But whether or aliens

1062
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 5: sleep is a good question depends on what Whether aliens

1063
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 5: need to repair dumble stranded DNA. Do they have double

1064
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 5: stranded DNA. It depends on whether their energy stores works

1065
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 5: the same way. That's a great question because there are

1066
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 5: people who would like to do away with sleep altogether.

1067
00:57:57,760 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 5: They think the foo ones who think it's a waste

1068
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 5: of time, or who would like sleepiness to not affect

1069
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 5: people's performance, for example. But we have not found anything

1070
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 5: on Earth at least that can replace sleep itself, and

1071
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 5: in fact, without sleep, eventually we die, and that eventually

1072
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 5: is about as long as we take to die without

1073
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 5: any food, So it's as essential as food for us.

1074
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's quite possible. There are aliens who don't

1075
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 5: need sleep work differently.

1076
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 3: Well, when the aliens do arrive, I think I hope

1077
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 3: that they're invertebrates so that you can do all sorts

1078
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 3: of terrible experiments on them. Yeah, I understand.

1079
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, no.

1080
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 2: I think they're coming up with new rules for working

1081
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 2: on like octopus as well, because oh yeah, they're particularly intelligent.

1082
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's more complicated.

1083
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 5: There are already rules for activists. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

1084
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thank you so much for chatting with

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Speaker 2: us about sleep and dreams. This has been fascinating and

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Speaker 2: let's go ahead and hear if our listener had questions answered.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for doing your podcast on this. It was really interesting,

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Speaker 4: Doctor Poe was really interesting. I've never knew that people

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Speaker 4: believe they talk to their ancestors in their dreams. I

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Speaker 4: found that fascinating. Thanks for everything you do and I'll

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Speaker 4: look forward to hearing all your future podcasts. Byebye.

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Speaker 2: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you.

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00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 3: We really would. We want to know what questions you

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Speaker 3: have about this Extraordinary Universe.

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00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 2: We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions

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Speaker 2: for future shows.

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00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: If you contact us, we will get back to you.

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00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 3: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

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Speaker 3: at Questions at danieland Kelly.

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00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 2: Dot org, or you can find us on social media.

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Speaker 2: We have accounts on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on

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Speaker 2: all of those platforms.

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Speaker 1: You can find us at D and K Universe.

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Speaker 3: Don't be shy write to us