WEBVTT - TechStuff Flashback: The Scary World of EVMs Part One 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.760 Welcome to text Tuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.800 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:18.120 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio, 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:22.520 and I love all things tech in general. So today 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.239 we're actually going to listen to a classic episode. I 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:27.840 know it's not Friday and when we typically listen to 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:30.880 classic episodes, but I feel like this one is getting 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:35.800 super topical again, which is about electronic voting machines or 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:41.440 e v ms. I voted this morning in Georgia and 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.640 had to go through and use an e v M. Now, 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:50.559 unlike what the situation was back in when this episode 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:54.560 you're about to hear originally published, Georgia has changed slightly. 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:59.280 Back in, the voting machines did not produce any sort 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.600 of paper record, so there was no sort of receipt 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:06.880 to show that the vote you were casting on the 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.800 electronic machine was being reflected as the vote that was 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:14.360 actually being recorded. Georgia has since changed that. Now when 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.920 you go through and you make your selections, it sends 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.160 a paper ballot to be printed on a machine, which 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.120 you then can look at verify that in fact the 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.319 information that you put on the electronics display is reflected 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.000 on that paper ballot. But then you bring that paper 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:35.200 ballot over to another machine and you scan the paper 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.679 ballot in So now you have a scanning machine that 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:44.360 takes the paper from the electronic machine and scans that, 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:49.480 which arguably just creates a different point of failure. But 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.320 no system is perfect. The question we have to ask 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:57.000 ourselves is does this system provide more confidence in the 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:01.080 overall process of voting than the preview system. I would 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.240 say yes, because at least there was that physical copy, 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.360 not that you've got to keep it. You actually could 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:11.600 not leave with your paper ballot, so that's something you 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.160 didn't get a copy of it or anything like that. Um, 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.880 but I think it is a step in the right direction. However, 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.840 I have a much deeper conversation with Mr Ben Bolan 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.400 of stuff they don't want you to know and ridiculous 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:28.240 history and many other things, and so we sat down 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:31.760 to talk about the scary world of e v ms. 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.359 This one is part one, and in our next episode 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.440 on Monday, we will listen to part two. And I 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.920 hope all of you are well. I hope you're all 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:43.880 doing what you can to make the world a better place. 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.320 And uh, yeah, I'll see you on the other side. Hey, Jonathan, 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:50.919 thanks for having me on the show, and hello tech 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.840 stuff audience. I was really excited when you brought up 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.000 this topic and asked if I if I want to 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.400 hang out with you on it. However, before we go 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.720 any further, I've got to ask, are you okay man? 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.000 It's been a long week. Then it's been a long week, 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.240 and it's been a weird day. This this day did 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.799 not unfold the way we first imagined it would, or 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.280 at least not for me. Uh. And Also I figured 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.040 that I needed to be really like up and upbeat 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.680 and excited and happy before we go into this topic, 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:28.600 because I guarantee you it cannot sustain itself as we 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.320 talk about this. Also, you're gonna hear some papers being 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.280 shuffled around, folks, And that's because my computer decided that 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:37.440 it was no longer going to connect to the wireless 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:39.840 network once I took it away from my docking station. 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.000 I think I figured out what the sequence of events 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:46.360 was that caused it to do yeah, which largely involves 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:51.160 being docked, removing the wire WiFi, turning the WiFi adapter 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.280 off because I was getting blips and then removing it 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.960 from the docking station without enacting you know, without enabling 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.920 the WiFi again, and now it won't do anything. So 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.320 I just turned the computer off and I'm using paper notes, 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:12.000 which I understand are a thing. And sometimes how apropos, 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:17.080 my friend, because sometimes people will argue that, uh, using 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:23.200 paper based documentation is more efficient or at least less 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:27.800 prone to error than electronic documentation, such as you know, 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:30.719 notes we might share on a laptop. Well, it's certainly, 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:35.920 uh fixes things in a more permanent form, right, because 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.120 with electronic files. I don't know if you know this, Ben, 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.279 but you can sometimes go in and change stuff. What 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.720 but if you've printed something on a piece of paper, 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:46.960 it's a lot harder to change the thing. You print 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.000 it on the piece of paper without it being noticeable. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.680 Now you can change it in electronic format and print 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:56.599 a new thing. Yeah, I don't wish to bamboos all you. 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.240 I am no flim flam man. So yeah, today we're 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.760 specifically talking and you know from the title of the podcast, 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:09.919 we're talking about voting machines today, electronic voting machines specifically, 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:14.000 and what it is about electronic voting machines that have 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:20.160 certain people kind of talking about security, transparency, that kind 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.080 of stuff. And here in the US we are hurtling 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:28.160 towards an election, uh, kicking and screaming all the way, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.920 as is typical every few years in the US, I mean, 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.400 especially when it's a presidential election, which we have every 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.400 four years. And so I thought it was really important 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:39.760 for us to kind of talk about this, and of 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.280 course ben as a host of stuff they don't want 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.520 you to know. There are a lot of conspiracy theories 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.600 that surround voting in general, not just electronic voting machines, 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:52.080 but the whole process. Yeah, yeah, it's true. There are 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.400 a they're quite a few things that would be called 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.920 conspiracy theories. There are also quite a few very valu 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:05.520 lid criticisms or observation about the nature of the voting system, 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.240 everything from the nuts and bolts of the technology, to 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:13.880 the way technology disrupts existing legislative systems, to just the 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:18.279 organizational stuff. You know, the the question that a lot 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.240 of a lot of you guys probably have out their 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:25.440 ladies and gentlemen is stuff like why was Ross Perro 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.400 the last third party candidate to make it to the 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.679 you know, the big kids table of debates, right, actually 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:36.320 and actually getting put onto ballots on most states. Or 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.120 another great question that I hear all the time is 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:41.800 why the heck do we still have an electoral college 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.919 if we've if we've evolved beyond the point where a 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:49.679 bunch of very wealthy white landowners have decided that really 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.520 we shouldn't give complete control to the HOI ploy when 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.839 it comes to picking our leaders. We should have a 0:06:56.000 --> 0:07:00.400 protective layer in between the dirty masses is and the 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:06.240 enlightened leaders. The quote titian can't even appreciate a cool man, Julie, 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:14.000 that's true. Yes, uh, hear about recognize the esteemed representative 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.840 from the state of Virginia. Um, yeah, that's a. That's okay. 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.400 So that's a that's a great point. And before we 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.280 get too far into it, one of the most salient 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:33.160 or applicable quote unquote conspiracy theories about elections revolves around 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:39.000 the idea that elections have been fixed retroactively or miscounted, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:44.040 whether intentionally or accidental, by a machine or the people 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.200 in charge of the software running the machine. Yeah. Yeah, 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.120 I mean, these are our big questions, and we're gonna 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.720 talk about all of those and in order to really 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.080 get a full understanding of where we are today, I 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.840 think it always helps to have a quick rundown of 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.440 how we got to where we are, right. I love 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:03.800 to do this on tech stuff, where even if I'm 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.040 going to talk about specific technology, I tend to go 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.680 back and say, well, here's here's how we got there historically. 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.239 Um So, voting has been around for a really long time, 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.440 whether whether you're talking about like from an official capacity, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.720 like you go back to like the Greeks and they're 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.720 they're voting, or you just talk about you know, small 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.600 groups deciding where they're gonna you know, what animal were 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.520 we going to kill for tonight's meal? We had? We 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:33.360 had mastadon last night. Come on, let's let's branch out. Um. 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:38.560 But well before Survivor ever took to the airwaves, we've 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:43.360 had voting, and for a long time we would tabulate 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.720 these votes manually. You just have someone who would either 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.080 just count up all the votes, if you did some 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.280 sort of voting like through stones like the White Stone 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.800 or the Black Stone to vote on something, or very 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.959 often voting was done in public where you didn't it 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.640 was no secret ballot. You declared your vote in front 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.480 of people, which yeah, and that um, I mean it 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.400 clearly has some advantages in the sense that you have 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.760 verifiable votes, right, it has some disadvantages in that if 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:15.440 you hold an unpopular opinion in your particular region, you 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.559 might find yourself ostracized from the larger community because you've 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.760 voiced that you may become a target. Yes. Yes, I 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.240 actually had a conversation with someone this morning about how 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:30.200 uh they they had suggested we moved to h a 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.160 time where we would be able to assigned votes to 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:37.000 specific people so that for verification purposes, and I said, 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.440 that's a terrible idea. And the reason it's terrible is 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:44.120 because it favors the majority and it punishes the minority. Right, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.440 if you are in the minority opinion and you vote 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.880 your conscience, like you, you are not going to be 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:55.640 cowed into voting the majority just because all these other 0:09:55.679 --> 0:10:00.720 people want you to. Then you stand, you know, victim. 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:04.080 You're you're vulnerable to the majority who may punish you 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:08.160 for your your choice to uh to vote your conscience, 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.480 and or you might just feel pressured to change your 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.600 vote so that you keep your you, yourself and your 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.800 family safe. So secret ballots I think are really important. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.720 They actually came officially to the scene pretty late, especially 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:27.560 when you're talking about standardized ballots. Those didn't become a 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.880 thing until the mid nineteenth century. So eighteen fifty six 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.920 was when we saw the first standardized ballots, meaning ballots 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:41.440 issued by the government with the candidates arranged in whatever 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.080 order they had deemed was appropriate. I don't know if 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.480 they went alphabetically or how they arranged it, but the 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:50.959 government had come to a decision on here's how we're 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:54.160 going to present the ballot. Um it's standard for everybody. 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.600 And that government was Australia, so it wasn't the UK. 0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:59.640 Of course, it wasn't the U S which a lot 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.439 of people would assume. Yeah, now there had been secret 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.760 ballots in both the UK and the US, but this 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.079 was a standardized approach, which, yeah, this is where you're saying, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.880 everyone's getting the same sheet of paper to vote on, 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.600 as opposed to if you went into a voting precinct 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:20.040 to one part of the United States for let's say 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:22.800 the presidential election, and then went to a voting precinct 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:26.080 in a totally different state, the ballots could look dramatically 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:30.160 different from one another and have a have completely different presentation. 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.800 Like you could just imagine, let's say that you're going 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:37.960 through a corrupt precinct and the candidate that they all 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.080 want to win is a nice, big, bold print, and 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.559 then the other candidates are in teeny tiny print and 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.160 you can barely see them. Like that would be unfair. Obviously, 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.120 you would say, like, I detect a sense of bias. 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.520 So this was Australia in the mid nineteen century, and 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.400 I guess then the best way to organize the candidates 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:03.760 would be by their crime, right, I'm so sorry. As always, 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.160 As always we love to poke fund at Australia for 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:10.280 getting its start as a as a as a penal colony. Well, 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:12.920 I mean, clearly the Aborigines have been there forever. But 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.720 but you know, from the European standpoint, Hey, but before 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.400 we get too cocky, Ben, we live in Georgia, a 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:23.440 state that was a penal colony. Do we get a 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.920 pass for that because we because because Georgia was a 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.319 debtor's prison essentially. If you've ever been in Georgia you 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.280 can understand how how when Europeans got here they first thought, yeah, 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.319 this is where we want to put bad people. So 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:38.680 so the the Australian state would create these out of 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.880 I guess taxpayer money. Yeah, yeah, it was, and that 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.480 was a big deal, right, like the decision that because 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.480 anything the government does, you know, any product that they're 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:52.520 going to make, any anything they produce, the money for 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.760 that comes from taxes. That's where governments get their money. 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:59.800 So you know, you're not going to the Australian government 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:01.880 of shop and buying a whole bunch of T shirts 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:06.439 and that money goes to making making ballots. But once 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:10.959 this was established, then it quickly caught Uh. I was 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.840 gonna say caught fire, but that's hard to talk about 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.640 when you're talking about paper ballots. They got popular, um 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.079 I was adopted throughout the world. And so by the 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:23.760 late nineteenth century, so late eighteen hundreds, inventors yeah, just 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:25.839 a couple of decades later, inventors were already beginning to 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:31.160 experiment with ways to create machines for voting, things like 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.559 using punch cards so that you could tabulate the data 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:38.080 really quickly. And you know, because especially as populations grow 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.920 and as you open up the vote to more eligible voters, 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.400 as you make more people eligible, you know, keep in mind, 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.840 this is the same period where we start to see uh, 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:54.880 various minority populations end up getting the right to vote. 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.199 That increases your voting population. We see women get the 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.439 right to vote, That increases your voting pop relation. Being 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.040 able to count those votes quickly becomes really important because 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.480 you don't want to hold up like. You don't want 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.120 to everyone waiting, Like we voted three weeks ago. When 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:11.880 are we going to find out who won? You don't 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.560 want that to happen. So there were a lot of 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.840 experiments in ways to tabulate votes more quickly. And also 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.240 the idea was that this would be more reliable than 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.520 a human, like, less likely to make an error, less 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.360 prone to uh, less prone to a user error or 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.000 or fraud or fraud. You know, you can't bribe a 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.720 tabulation machine to give you incorrect results. You could program 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:39.480 it to do that, but we'll get into that later. Um. Now, 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.200 even though people were working on it in the late 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.840 eighteen hundreds, it would be another half century before you 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.880 actually started to see some of these punch card systems 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.160 make their way into voting booths. Uh, it just wasn't 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.680 ready yet. Um. And then we get into the first 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.560 actual voting machines and we get to a man by 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.040 the name of Henry W. Sprat. He sounds like a 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.120 like a LIMI he is or he was. Can I 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.400 say limey on the air? Is that okay? I mean 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.240 we can beep it out. It's just gonna sound like 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.960 I said something worse. The English Blackguard. Um. He was 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.800 an Englishman and he received a U. S. Patent for 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.200 a push button voting machine back in eighteen seventy five. 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.880 And so imagine that you have a column of buttons, okay, 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:25.960 and each button corresponds to a choice for a vote 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.280 for a single vote. Now it's just a column, or 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.520 it could be arranged as a row. It depends on 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.360 how you built it. But it's a single row or 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:37.720 a single column. And you might have three buttons that 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.480 are activated because you have three choices that you could 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.920 choose from. You would choose and then that's it. You 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.160 only had that one that one option because uh, it 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.400 only had the one row or the one column. Okay. 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:55.320 So so like in other words, like when we go 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.280 in for an election, frequently we have multiple uh positions 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.760 or or um issues that we're voting on. Not just 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:07.120 the president or maybe a state rep or a state senator, 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:12.640 but also uh controller uh well and ann and people 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.640 in the actual House of Representatives in the U. S. Senate. 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.640 So you've have multiple positions that could be open, well, 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.160 you would need to have multiple rows or multiple columns 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:26.160 so that you could make that kind of vote. And 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.560 in fact we did see those follow but in eighteen 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.120 seventy five we saw that first push button patent um 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:36.520 that in several variations that follow. We're all purely mechanical devices, 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.960 so no electricity here. These are all working from like 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:47.000 levers and joints and hinges, and so it's actual just 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.400 pure mechanical action, which is great, um, but also problematic 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.800 because things can break down, things can jam. Like if 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.480 you've ever used an old typewriter sometimes you know the 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.200 keys can jam. Same sort of thing could happen. I mean, 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.640 especially with the more complex voting machines, more moving parts 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.840 creates just simply more opportunities for something to go wrong, exactly, 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.439 more points of failure. Yeah, and so one of my 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.359 favorite inventions that came out fairly early was a lever 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:16.920 that you would pull in order to close the curtain 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:18.959 behind you. Not Ben, I didn't even ask you this, 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:23.879 but uh have you for all of your voting experiences. 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.200 Have you only used the direct recording type the computer 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.720 monitor types, or have you ever used a voting booth 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.199 like I had used a booth very very early in 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.040 my political career. Yeah, and I think voting will count 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.080 as my political careers. I said, before you burnt all 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:42.879 the bridges, and before I had burned the bridges and 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.120 became an inspiration for several characters in the House of Cards. Yeah, 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:50.399 uh yeah, I I was in the very early days 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:55.119 before this was institute. I did get to experience like 0:17:55.520 --> 0:18:00.040 the older paper based voting I I did. Um, I 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.359 did the old lever voting machine used to be that 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:06.360 used to be in Georgia before two thousand two. I'll 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:08.919 talk about that more in a second. But um, the 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.679 way that they that they typically would work. Because this 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.800 once this innovation was introduced, it was adopted pretty much universally. Uh. 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.080 You would have a lever that you would use to 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.280 close the curtain behind you, and only then would the 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.840 other levers become active where you would be able to 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.720 cast your vote. So it was great because it meant 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.439 that you were pretty confident that your vote would be 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.840 done secretly. No one's going to look in on you, 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:33.840 because before you could even get started, you had to 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.720 close the curtain. You didn't have an option to vote 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.399 with the curtain open. And uh, typically the way it 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.520 would work is that there'd be a mechanism that would 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:44.840 just lock all the other levers in place until that 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:49.200 curtain lever was activated. And yeah, it was really ingenious. 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.000 It was again pretty simple. Even when you get to 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.639 electro mechanical voting boosts later on, it's still followed the 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.439 same principle. And I thought that was really neat. Now, 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.680 those voting booths were and incredibly heavy, uh and complex, 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.440 and like I said, they would break down occasionally, which 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.520 obviously that's a big problem. They sound positively Stephen punk 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:09.560 if we're being honest. Yeah, if you were to ever 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.480 like look in the back of one, you would be 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.200 pretty impressed. It would look kind of like a piano 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.560 got in the fight with you know, like a copper 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.000 store or something. It was pretty cool. That is such 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.720 a beautiful description. That might be your best writing this week. Well, 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.680 like a piano with story. Yeah, and then you that's you. 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.680 You got a lever action voting machine. In eighteen eighty one, 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.920 Anthony C. Baroneck received a U S patent for a 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.960 push button voting machine that was more suited for American elections. 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.080 This one had the multiple rows and column so it 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.359 was more advanced than than sprats. And then in eighteen 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.760 eighty nine, Jacob H. Myers patented the first lever voting 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.680 machine also known as a direct recording vote machine, which 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.000 use mechanical lever syndicate. Votes and results were counted by 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.520 the machine itself and then what would happen is he 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.560 would record the results. A human being would record the 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:04.680 results from each machine for it to be uh tabulated 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.720 in the grand totals. Um and Myers had said that 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.199 the approach had major advantages over older methods and that 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.760 it could prevent ballot stuffing because each person could only 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:14.800 use the machine once before it had to be reset, 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.840 so you couldn't vote and then just go ahead and 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.480 vote again, and vote again and and then just keep 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:26.840 on creating uh you know, false votes for whatever candidate 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.320 you chose. You can only do it the one time 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:31.840 and then it would have to be reset for the 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.119 next voter, which meant that, you know, it was a 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.000 little labor intensive because you had to have someone there 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:37.600 to reset the machine. But at the same time, it 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:42.440 kept the voting process honest. Um. And then the first 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.919 time Myers machine was actually used, I remember it was 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:52.040 made Ino, so it didn't take long. And again there 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.639 still was a weak point here. If you had someone 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.800 whose job it was to write down the results, they 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:02.760 could fudge the results from the machine. And let's also 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:08.399 point out that here in the late nineteen century, yep, 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:12.720 post civil war, at least in the US, Yes, late 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.399 nineteenth the three is post civil war even today, even today, 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.920 I'm just saying with with that having occurred so recently, 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.840 corruption was rife and rampant, oh yeah, especially like there's 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:29.040 certain areas of the United States that have almost a 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:35.320 comical association with election fraud, Chicago, Chicago being the big one, 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:41.119 Like like you'll hear stories about Chicago elections that are amazing, 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.600 like like like how how how many people turn out 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:46.919 to vote in an election, including ones who haven't been 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:52.080 alive for like ten years, um, boss tweed kind of stuff. Right, yeah, yeah, So, 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:57.960 at any rate, the the this didn't erase the ability 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.840 for some tampa to happen, right, But again it would 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.840 be the humans. Ideally, the machines count all the votes 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.800 as they were cast. But the humans whose job it 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.959 was to transcribe that could fudge if they wanted, if 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:14.840 they if they were so inclined. Not that they were 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:19.480 allowed to, but they could have because there's a hierarchy 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.960 of reporting here. One person tabulates each machine. After each 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.520 vote goes to a precinct, precinct tabulates, it goes to 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:28.760 a higher authority of a regional sort, and then on 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.240 and on and on up to the national level. Yeah. 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:34.600 And just like you said earlier, the more moving parts 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:38.320 we have in a mechanism, whether an organization or a machine, 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.240 the more potential points of failure we have, right, And 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:43.679 and this again kind of leads into the thinking that 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:46.480 would eventually develop into the electronic voting machine, the idea 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:48.280 of being that, hey, if we can remove some of 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:53.320 these steps, then perhaps we can end up having a 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:58.080 more accurate reflection of the public's intent. Right, Which that's 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.320 a very honorable thing, but it gets a little a 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:06.080 little muddy in practice. Yeah, we do so. Nineteen thirty 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:09.680 lever voting machines have become a common site throughout elections 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:13.960 in US cities. Most major cities had these by nineteen thirty. UM. 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:19.880 In nineteen sixty two karn City, California, would use optical 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:23.000 scan ballots for the first time. So these are like 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:24.840 the center dized tests, like the s A T. I 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:27.400 assume they're still like that. I haven't been in high 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:30.159 school in a really long time. But you know the 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:31.520 kind of test where you have to fill in the 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:34.879 bubble all the way to indicate your choice. That's what 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.520 we're talking about optical scans. So you've got your ballot 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:42.080 and you fill in the ballot as directed in order 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:44.360