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Speaker 1: This is mesters in Business with Very Results on Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Radio this weekend. On the podcast man Strap yourself and

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Speaker 1: this is really one of the old time great Chamath

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Speaker 1: paula founder of Social Capital, very successful venture capitalist, part

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Speaker 1: owner of the Golden State Warriors, and all around uh

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Speaker 1: insightful investor, social critic and tech wonk. If you're interested

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Speaker 1: in anything from technology to social media too, venture investing, startups, entrepreneurship.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what else to say other than strap

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Speaker 1: yourself in. This is a great one with no further ado.

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Speaker 1: My conversation with Chamath Polly. This is Mester's Business with

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Speaker 1: Very Hults on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Barry Ridhults. You're listening

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Speaker 1: to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My extra special

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Speaker 1: guests this week is Chamath Pollypatia. He is the founder

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Speaker 1: of Social Capital, one of the more interesting and successful

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Speaker 1: venture capitalists out in Palo Alto. He is also an

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Speaker 1: engineer and team leader working at places like a O, L, Facebook,

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Speaker 1: and Slack. He has been known as the Spack King

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Speaker 1: for his numerous successful deals in that space, and he

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Speaker 1: is also a ten percent owner of the Golden State Warriors.

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Speaker 1: Chamat Polly Hapatia, Welcome to Bloomberg, Gary. Thanks, I've been

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Speaker 1: looking forward to having this conversation for a while. Let's

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Speaker 1: let's normally I start with people's backgrounds and we go chronologically.

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Speaker 1: But you have some quotes that I love, and I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you about them and let you run

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Speaker 1: while with them. Starting with venture capital properly deployed can

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Speaker 1: solve the biggest problems, filling a void left by the

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Speaker 1: shrinking scientific ambitions of governments, foundations and international organizations. Explain, well,

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Speaker 1: if you, um, look at what's happening in California or

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Speaker 1: what's happening at the federal level of the United States currently,

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Speaker 1: there's a really interesting thing that's happened, which is we

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Speaker 1: have effectively single party rule. Um, you have a you know,

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Speaker 1: elected leader that's of one party, you have a Senate

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Speaker 1: that's of that same party. House and then you know,

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Speaker 1: in the case of California, mayors as well, all democratic

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Speaker 1: in this case. And what's interesting is it also happens

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Speaker 1: to be a moment in time where the societal problems

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Speaker 1: that we've been facing are the worst they've ever been.

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Speaker 1: Climate change is worse than it's ever been. We have

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Speaker 1: a water crisis, we have an impending food crisis, homelessness, crime.

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Speaker 1: And you have to ask yourself, well, if a single party,

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Speaker 1: like you know, when you have a typical normal, you know,

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Speaker 1: political setup, you have these two opposing forces, then you

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Speaker 1: have to find common ground. And each party says the

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Speaker 1: exact thing, which is, well, if we had complete control,

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Speaker 1: this would all be fixed. And it turns out that

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Speaker 1: the two examples where you have complete control, in fact,

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Speaker 1: nothing gets fixed, even less gets fixed than what got

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Speaker 1: fixed before. So why is that? It's that the tool

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Speaker 1: kit of policy and the tool kit of society's has changed.

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Speaker 1: It's no longer as much about laws necessarily, but it's

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Speaker 1: about technology, it's about code, it's about very specific inventions

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Speaker 1: of science. And the problem with that then well then

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Speaker 1: you would say, well, great, well that's the solution to

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Speaker 1: all of our problems. If we go in and figure

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Speaker 1: out how to actually, you know, just have more of

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff, everything will be solved. Okay. Well,

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Speaker 1: then then you go in and you decompose that problem

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Speaker 1: to first principles, and what you find is, for example,

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Speaker 1: in places like core scientific research, people care more about

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Speaker 1: citations and papers and research. And it's also highly politicized

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Speaker 1: and infested with all kinds of infighting, and so foundations

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Speaker 1: can't fund the work that they used to. Universities aren't

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Speaker 1: nearly as good and actually promoting massive breakthroughs. So more

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Speaker 1: and more of this responsibility gets put on for profit enterprises.

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Speaker 1: But to be very specific, they have to be for

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Speaker 1: profit and they have to be technical. And when you

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Speaker 1: say it that way, the venture capitalist all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden has this critical role in society that they didn't

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Speaker 1: have before because they are a translator. They are, you know,

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Speaker 1: in a technical meeting, the smartest business person, but in

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Speaker 1: a business meeting, the smartest technical person, and they're able

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Speaker 1: to put these things together to solve problems. And so

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Speaker 1: that's what I was trying to get across, which is

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Speaker 1: we need more people building for profit technical businesses, organizing

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Speaker 1: resources against problems. So so so let's stay with the concept

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Speaker 1: of of venture capital being organized to solve problem and

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about social capital. Tell us about

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Speaker 1: your first couple of venture investments and who were your

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Speaker 1: first limited partners. So I was at Facebook at the time,

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Speaker 1: and um I had been doing a bunch of angel investing,

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Speaker 1: and this is maybe two thousand eight or nine. But

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Speaker 1: I was the first solo g P. I think in

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Speaker 1: many ways, UM, I was putting some money to work

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Speaker 1: of my own money, small checks, Berry, ten thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars, early seed round early seed rounds in

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Speaker 1: you know, two thousand and seven and eight, basically all

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Speaker 1: the money that I had, and I had a win. UM.

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Speaker 1: I met a guy named Rick Thompson, an amazing entrepreneur

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Speaker 1: who started a gaming company, and I jumped in with

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Speaker 1: two feet. I invested my money. I spent a little

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Speaker 1: bit of time. They're helping him, you know, certif I

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Speaker 1: mean as a as a part timer obviously, because I

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Speaker 1: was still working on Facebook at the time. And the

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Speaker 1: company gets bought by Disney for like set million bucks

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Speaker 1: and I made a few million bucks, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: this is it. I have my I have my escape Velocity,

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Speaker 1: and um, at the time at Facebook, there were all

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Speaker 1: these people that were trying to invest in the company,

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Speaker 1: and Zuck basically said to me, hey, can you help

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Speaker 1: sort out whose money we should take. I mean, and

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Speaker 1: I was running Facebook Platform, I was building Facebook Mobile,

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Speaker 1: I was doing all of these products. So but I

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Speaker 1: was like, yeah, sure, I guess and uh, I met

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Speaker 1: the guys a Tiger Global Um Chase Coleman specifically, and

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Speaker 1: we built a relationship and then you know, Tiger ended

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Speaker 1: up investing in the business. And along the way, you know,

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Speaker 1: I said, hey, I'm thinking of, you know, investing a

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Speaker 1: little bit of capital on the side, and he goes, well,

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Speaker 1: if you organize a little LLC, you know, I'm happy

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Speaker 1: to kick in a you know, a few shuckles. And

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Speaker 1: so all of a sudden, I had this little group

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Speaker 1: of me and my friends, and I just organized about

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Speaker 1: eleven million bucks, you know, and I was like three

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Speaker 1: or four of it, and like, you know, other couple

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Speaker 1: of folks jumped in for fifty k there, there are

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Speaker 1: a million there whatever. Um. And so while I was

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Speaker 1: a full time employee and Facebook, I was a part

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Speaker 1: time investor UM. And that's how I started. And so

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Speaker 1: those are my first helps. Wonderful guys read Hoffman, Um.

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Speaker 1: You know a whole list of kind of like who

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Speaker 1: who's the rest of that list? Because already I'm loving

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Speaker 1: this group. The list was pretty impressive. I want to say,

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Speaker 1: it was like Peter Thiel, Reid Hoffman, Chase Coleman, UM.

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Speaker 1: I'd have to look that the slides to get the

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Speaker 1: murderers row. Yeah, I was pretty Dave Goldberg. You know

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Speaker 1: Xander Lurie, who's the CEO of Momentum AI. So a

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Speaker 1: bunch of really great entrepreneurs and CEOs and investors. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: I put the money to work, and you know, it

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Speaker 1: was non obvious that that fund was good. I was

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Speaker 1: learning and most of the investments I made were way

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Speaker 1: too ambitious and I was deeply under capitalized. Right, So

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Speaker 1: you in two thousand and eight and nine, in hindsight,

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Speaker 1: it was really dumb to make a bunch of deep

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Speaker 1: tech investments. Now some of them have come home to

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Speaker 1: roost and that fund has now tunned it. But we

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Speaker 1: got very lucky and it did very well. But it

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Speaker 1: took an enormously long period of time. So I put

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Speaker 1: the money to work and I learned. I learned, Hey,

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Speaker 1: portfolio construction is important. I didn't get that right. I

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Speaker 1: was way under capitalized, Like, hey, wait a minute, Like

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Speaker 1: I needed way more reserves to defend these companies. And

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Speaker 1: I had to think about duration, meaning I can't solve

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Speaker 1: twenty year problems in a ten year fund. I need

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Speaker 1: to solve five year problems, and a ten year fund

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Speaker 1: if I want to be in the fund business. And

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Speaker 1: you know that obviously changed in seventeen when I just

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Speaker 1: basically consolidated with my own money. But so then I

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Speaker 1: left Facebook inven and I went back to these same

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Speaker 1: folks and I said, guys, let's go much bigger. I

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Speaker 1: think I know what I'm doing UM, and we created

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Speaker 1: My first fund was two fifty or sixty million bucks.

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Speaker 1: I put up sixty and then it was really like

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Speaker 1: you know, John Door, Peter Thiel, Reid Hoffman, Leeka shing Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, just I ran the table, Georgia Pawel Lehman,

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Speaker 1: like incredible people and a handful of really great institutions,

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Speaker 1: Mayo Clinic, you know folks that I was really proud

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Speaker 1: to make money for UM. And I said, this is

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Speaker 1: like a great intersection of entrepreneurs and you know, investors

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Speaker 1: in philanthropists and foundations, and you know, I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: and try to find great businesses. And that's how it started.

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Speaker 1: So from there, what was the subsequent funds that came

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Speaker 1: out of that? Because that you know, funds that run

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Speaker 1: a seven or a ten year lifespan, and some companies,

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Speaker 1: some vcs will just do fund to fund three fund four.

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Speaker 1: You didn't exactly go in that direction, you know, I

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Speaker 1: can tell you so like the returns as of this

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Speaker 1: last quarter, because I just I had I had a

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Speaker 1: little advi as board meeting. You know, I put about

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Speaker 1: a billion one in the ground. Um that is worth

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Speaker 1: today just a little under five billion dollars. And this

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Speaker 1: was so this was I raised about a billion dollars

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Speaker 1: over four funds, over five funds, sorry, in the first

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Speaker 1: five years basically, so a two fifty million dollar, sixty

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Speaker 1: million dollar fund, another to sixty five hundred, and then

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Speaker 1: I had a small hundred million dollar fund and in

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Speaker 1: a thirty million dollar opportunities fun kind of so about

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Speaker 1: one point one billion dollars. And you know, so far

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Speaker 1: we've returned a little almost a little under two extra

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Speaker 1: capital so cash on cash, we've returned about two some

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Speaker 1: odd billion. The carrying value is a little under five billion.

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Speaker 1: And I think that you know, when I look in

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Speaker 1: the next in the next few years, that will turn

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Speaker 1: one more time. So basically you know, one billion will

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Speaker 1: turn into ten billion. And the returns are you know

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Speaker 1: probably well right now they're in the high twenties nets

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Speaker 1: and it will be in the probably the low thirties

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Speaker 1: nets when it's so as all that comes up, are

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Speaker 1: you just going to roll that over into another fund?

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Speaker 1: Or are you looking to spread this into different spaces?

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Speaker 1: Because I'm aware you are a man of many interests,

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Speaker 1: You're not just I find the world really fascinating and

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Speaker 1: curious and looking at what you and ved Ston I

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Speaker 1: can tell you approach the universe the same way. Right,

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Speaker 1: so along the way, I think in what I realized

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Speaker 1: was running funds doesn't accomplish my goal, and it took

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Speaker 1: me some number of years to figure that out. I

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Speaker 1: loved working inside of these companies. I loved trying to

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Speaker 1: make some of these businesses work. I loved taking really

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Speaker 1: big moon shots on technical problems that I wanted to solve.

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Speaker 1: I didn't like the constraints of a fund. I didn't

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Speaker 1: like managing LP relations because by that point, you know,

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Speaker 1: as you know Barry, when you're in the fund business,

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Speaker 1: then it's all about quantity of LPs. And so the

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Speaker 1: LPs had grown beyond my co cohort of people, right,

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Speaker 1: because it's not as if their money is infinite either, right,

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Speaker 1: And so then we have fund of funds and other

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Speaker 1: organizations who are in the business of, you know, being

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Speaker 1: investors in these organizations, and it became very administrative, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of my time was spent fundraising and managing

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Speaker 1: those relationships as opposed to investing or starting companies. And

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Speaker 1: so that was one big error of judgment that I

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Speaker 1: felt I needed to fix. The other one was I

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Speaker 1: was looking at myself thinking like, well, am I going

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Speaker 1: to be able to defend the ownership of these best companies?

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Speaker 1: And think about what happens in a fund. If you

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Speaker 1: make an investment and it's working, you have all this

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Speaker 1: pressure to double down. But when there's something smaller and

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Speaker 1: more technical, where there's way more asymmetric risk, it's much

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Speaker 1: harder to convince other that you should continue to invest

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Speaker 1: in that as well. So let's stay with that a second,

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Speaker 1: because that's there's some really interesting things. When I hear

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Speaker 1: someone like you say double down, what I'm usually thinking

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Speaker 1: of is, hey, we made a small investment in the

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Speaker 1: seed round, and now it's the A of the beam round,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna have to step up and five hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand is now a fifty million, or two million becomes

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Speaker 1: a hundred million dollar. Is that what you mean by

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Speaker 1: double down versus now I mean the following decision, which

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Speaker 1: is very hard. So let's just say, and we use

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Speaker 1: explicit examples because it's easier. So let's just say we

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Speaker 1: invested in a crypto business and a software as a

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Speaker 1: service startup on the same day, ten million dollars in each.

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Speaker 1: The SAS business has a much higher probability of short

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Speaker 1: term progress. I sold you know, x amount of software.

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Speaker 1: Here's my bookings, here's my revenue, high probability of modest success,

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Speaker 1: high probability of modest success. Most people are, you know,

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Speaker 1: enraptured with that. That's what well, that's what the SMP

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Speaker 1: fire is for. If you want a high probability of

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Speaker 1: modest success, go by the spiders. But I imagine people

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Speaker 1: come to venture because hey, I have all my conservative

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Speaker 1: stuff so that I'm looking for you to hit me.

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Speaker 1: It's not true, it really it may be listen. So

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Speaker 1: there there are two conundrums here. The conundrum number one

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Speaker 1: is if you're a limited partner. If you're a limited

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Speaker 1: partner right now sitting inside of a foundation or a

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Speaker 1: pension fund, and you have to return capital and you

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Speaker 1: have to get over your hurdle, you need an allocation

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Speaker 1: inter venture. But those allocations are minuscule. Um. Nobody's getting

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Speaker 1: you know, huge allocations into sequoia, right because the opacity

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Speaker 1: is has limited allocations into benchmark. You know, these are

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Speaker 1: five hundred million dollar funds, you know, and I you know,

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Speaker 1: in my example, I was thirty percent of all the capital.

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Speaker 1: So there's just not a lot of room for others.

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Speaker 1: Number one. And then the more insidious problem is actually

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Speaker 1: the human capital inside funds themselves. And what I mean

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Speaker 1: by that is not that they're bad people. They're wonderful people,

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Speaker 1: but there are products of a very specific and very

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Speaker 1: rigid um hierarchy. Um. You know, they typically went to

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Speaker 1: a handful of schools. They typically are educated in exactly

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Speaker 1: the same way. They typically um you know, have the

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Speaker 1: exact same kind of risk tolerance as a result of

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Speaker 1: all those things. And so when the rubber meets the road,

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Speaker 1: this Harvard NBA or the Stanford MBA, they want to

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Speaker 1: treat the venture capital organization as their version of the

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Speaker 1: sp very predictable, steady eddie, let me make you know,

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Speaker 1: a good salary, don't rock the boat. So what happens

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Speaker 1: Crypto stuff gets underfunded until it's obvious, you know, hard

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Speaker 1: tech and and you know, life sciences get underfunded until

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Speaker 1: it's obvious. Sas gets overfunded until it's obvious. And that's

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Speaker 1: the whip saw that you face. Now there are a

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Speaker 1: handful of organizations that have fought against that and have

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Speaker 1: done it brilliantly. So when you look, for example, like

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Speaker 1: Founders Fund, I'll pick an example incredible set of investors

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Speaker 1: who are iconoclasses to the one, atypical on every dimension.

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Speaker 1: There's not a single drop of real pedigree amongst them,

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Speaker 1: except they're all incredible entrepreneurs. If you look at coastal Ventures,

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Speaker 1: same situation, incredibly atypical in their intellectual makeup and the

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Speaker 1: way they think and what they value, and to a one,

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Speaker 1: they're generally great entrepreneurs. So you see this recurring theme.

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Speaker 1: So you know, for me, what I've tried to do

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Speaker 1: is recalibrate my time around that realization I have a

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Speaker 1: fixed amount of capital. If I surround myself with these

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Speaker 1: good they're good people, it will lead me astray because

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Speaker 1: I will get risk off. And the whole goal of

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Speaker 1: this business, as you exactly well put it, is to

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Speaker 1: be one percent massively risk on. And so that's how

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Speaker 1: I live my life. I have a small allocation of

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Speaker 1: capital in case all of this goes to zero, but

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Speaker 1: otherwise my net worth and wealth is massive risk on that.

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Speaker 1: That's quite quite fascinating. I keep wanting to go to

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Speaker 1: some of my questions, but you keep saying things that

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Speaker 1: make me have to respond. I'm still kind of struck

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Speaker 1: by your LPs needing management. And what I mean by

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Speaker 1: that is, someone runs a successful fund, there's a very

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Speaker 1: limited amount of slots for money to come in. I

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Speaker 1: just imagine it's like, here's the deal. I have a

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Speaker 1: slot for a hundred for you. I'll send you the

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Speaker 1: annual updates, will have an annual meeting, and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to hear from you the rest of the year.

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Speaker 1: You can't take a step broach. It doesn't work well.

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Speaker 1: It's not that easy even for the best organizations. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you're dealing with these large pools of capital,

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Speaker 1: there are large bureaucracies, and in fairness to these bureaucracies,

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Speaker 1: there's there's really important guard rails of risk management right

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Speaker 1: and legal and operational due diligence that they have to do.

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Speaker 1: Because again, it's the fireman's pension, it's the teacher's pension,

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Speaker 1: it's the you know, it's the foundation. It's that they're

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Speaker 1: all doing good work right. So it's not like, you know,

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Speaker 1: they have a right to be cavalier um, but it

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Speaker 1: creates an infrastructure of folks UM that approached their job

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Speaker 1: in a very specific way that for me didn't make sense.

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Speaker 1: For others, I think it does make a ton of

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Speaker 1: sense because you know, they look, there's a trade off. Today,

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Speaker 1: that trade off, by the way, has rewarded them more

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Speaker 1: than me. And what is the tradeoff? When you're a

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Speaker 1: successful investor, you'll get to a fork in the road

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Speaker 1: at a certain level of assets where you have to

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Speaker 1: go on the path well traveled or the path less traveled.

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Speaker 1: The path less traveled is what I've taken. You're low,

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Speaker 1: meaning you're by yourself, all your own money, all risk

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Speaker 1: on the path while traveled, says, syndicate the risk, let

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Speaker 1: the let the returns decay, build an a u M machine,

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Speaker 1: monetize the fee income, sell a percentage to dial or

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Speaker 1: to whomever, and then eventually sell the GP to somebody

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Speaker 1: and you're done. And you know, if you have enough

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Speaker 1: capital M at some point you're like, well, why don't

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Speaker 1: need any more money? This is a safer route to take.

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Speaker 1: I am of this different view, which is I want

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Speaker 1: very specific kinds of progress that will not happen unless

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Speaker 1: I am a tip of the spear on a bunch

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Speaker 1: of things that I want to change. And I'm using

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Speaker 1: my money as a mechanism of showing the change that

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Speaker 1: I want to see in the world, with the idea

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Speaker 1: that if free markets are ultimately efficient, other money will

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Speaker 1: follow and it will unlock and create change. SPACs are

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Speaker 1: a perfect example. We're gonna talk about SPACs in a

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Speaker 1: little bit. I'm fascinated by the path less traveled UM

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Speaker 1: and I'm kind of reminded of an old joke of

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Speaker 1: friend used to say, what's the difference between having a

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Speaker 1: billion dollars or having two billion dollars? And the answer

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Speaker 1: is really nothing? Um, nothing, right, isn't it? What is

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Speaker 1: the difference? So, so once you wrap your head around that,

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Speaker 1: why build an a UM machine? Why take a GP

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Speaker 1: and do all the things you don't want to do

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Speaker 1: just so you can say, look, I think there's something

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Speaker 1: very valiant in building a company of any kind. I

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Speaker 1: don't care what it is, because you end up hiring people,

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Speaker 1: you end up creating your own little economy. You know,

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Speaker 1: by hiring good people and paying them, you're giving them

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Speaker 1: a path, You're giving them, you know, some amount of

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Speaker 1: purpose in their lives. So, you know, any form of

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Speaker 1: company building I think is heroic. The person that chooses

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Speaker 1: to build a company, I don't care what it is.

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Speaker 1: It could be a garbage business and a u M business.

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Speaker 1: You know, Um, they're all to me where I look

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Speaker 1: at the founders of those things, like you, and you're

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Speaker 1: in a class of hero for me. Um. Everybody may

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Speaker 1: not view with the same you know. Sometimes now founders

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Speaker 1: unfortunately sometimes can get vilified for being an entrepreneur. Um.

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Speaker 1: But in general I think they're heroic. Um. But again,

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Speaker 1: that's not what I was trying to do my returns

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Speaker 1: in society. I wanted to be expressed by a different

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Speaker 1: kind of change and a different kind of purpose, which

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Speaker 1: was a practical problem solved. You know, I want reforestation

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Speaker 1: to be, you know, done differently. I want a gene

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Speaker 1: editing solution to be so cheap and so fastly available

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Speaker 1: we can eradicate, you know, the thirty two thousand inherited

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Speaker 1: Mandelian diseases. You know, I want to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to get you know, sub hundred dollars solar on everybody's roof,

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Speaker 1: and to build a massive distributed energy utility in America.

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Speaker 1: It turns out I'm doing all those things now I

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Speaker 1: can do that with my capital, and that's really great.

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Speaker 1: That capital may go to zero UM. But you're saying

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Speaker 1: that if you had these institutional endowments and other maybe

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Speaker 1: large more conservative investors who were more concerned about I

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Speaker 1: r R, then moving the needle short term I r

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Speaker 1: R because you know, again, they have a job to do.

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Speaker 1: They have pension obligations to make, they have, you know,

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Speaker 1: other things that they're funding. They have the lifestyle they

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Speaker 1: want to pay for, um. They have their own annual

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Speaker 1: reviews and bonuses and things. So you know, it's not

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Speaker 1: to debate the validity of it. It just exists. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not willing to sign up for that because durationally,

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Speaker 1: and by the way, you can see that certain funds

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Speaker 1: have realized that that durational limitation doesn't work in tech anymore. Right,

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Speaker 1: So now you're seeing these fifteen year funds, right, Some

387
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Speaker 1: of these climate funds are really long dated so that

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Speaker 1: they can take huge, long risk with very sticky money.

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Speaker 1: I think that's moving in the right direction. You know what,

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Speaker 1: I raise a you know, a twenty year fund. You're

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Speaker 1: how old? Forty five? All right, So you could do

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Speaker 1: with twenty year funds if you want to move the needle,

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Speaker 1: but a ten year fund I will never do. Well,

394
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Speaker 1: never say never, but I you know, it would be

395
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Speaker 1: a very very high bar. Quite fascinating. Let's talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about social cap all social media and being

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Speaker 1: a lightning rod. I kind of get the sense that

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Speaker 1: you like mixing things up and getting people upset by

399
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: saying things that are contrary to commonly accepted beliefs. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, here's what I'll say. Um, I really

401
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: like saying what's on my mind. Um, I think it's

402
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Speaker 1: really important. It's sort of one of the advantages of

403
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Speaker 1: you know, being free, right and living in a free society.

404
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Speaker 1: And so I really take that to heart and I

405
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Speaker 1: love that. And you know, along the way, sometimes I

406
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: do get a you know, some some giggles out of

407
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: like trolling some folks on Twitter, which is fun. So

408
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: let's talk about trolling. You mentioned you were up one

409
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Speaker 1: quarter three point six percent compared to the SMP which

410
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Speaker 1: was only up two point three percent, and you said, hey,

411
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Speaker 1: I'm doing fifty six percent better than the index, which

412
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Speaker 1: is technically true. But the enumerates on Twitter lost their minds.

413
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Speaker 1: Tell us what was that? An example of trolling? Absolutely?

414
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Speaker 1: I got such a kick out of that. People just

415
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Speaker 1: lose it. It's so delicious, Um, you know. I I

416
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Speaker 1: think what's important is that a lot of those things

417
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Speaker 1: are probably saying more about them than they are about

418
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Speaker 1: me UM, and their own insecurities and whatever they're dealing with.

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Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of people, in fairness

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Speaker 1: to them, that are trying really hard and treading water.

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Speaker 1: And I think one thing in fin twit that you'll

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Speaker 1: see a lot is folks that are out there, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the arena. As Roosevelt used to say with the

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Speaker 1: dust on his face, Guys like me UM can be

425
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Speaker 1: viewed as polarizing. And it's not because of what we

426
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: do or our success, but it's the actual act of

427
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: doing because that's what other people are constrained by. And

428
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: I think that tilts folks times. So so let me

429
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: turn this away from them to you for a second,

430
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: and pardon me if I'm projecting at all. So the twentysomething,

431
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: thirty something Chamat who's an engineer and a team leader

432
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: and his confident of Zuck. That's a different person than

433
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: the forty five year olds venture capital and someone looking

434
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: to make a dent in the world. Have you found

435
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: you had to sort of change your m O based

436
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: on who you are and where you sit and have

437
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 1: that's changed your outlook and job and complete reputation? How

438
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: is that morphed over the years? I think the the

439
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: best way to save Barry is that UM, in the

440
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: in the absence of a very few people, most of

441
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: us bring into adulthood a ton of baggage and a

442
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: lot of folks are dealing with baggage from how they

443
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: grew up. And I am sort of exhibit a of that.

444
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: You know, you leave a country because of a civil war.

445
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: You know you settle in a different country, where in

446
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: Canada in this case, where you know you come as refugees.

447
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: You know you live above a laundromat, you take you know,

448
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: used hand me down clothes. Um, you live on welfare. UM.

449
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: You know your dad has you know, issues with alcohol, depression, employment.

450
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: Those are not unique to me. Those are unique to

451
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: so many people in the United States end in Canada.

452
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: What happens though, is that then it creates these very

453
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: subtle loops of self sabotage. So when you're young, you

454
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: can overcome that by sheer brute force. And when I

455
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: was young, I was, you know, more mathematical than other people,

456
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: more technical than other people, just more clever than other

457
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: people in the jobs that I did. So I could

458
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: overcome my tendency to give myself a hard time and

459
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: make my life more difficult than it needed to be.

460
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: Then you slowly become Then I slowly started to become successful.

461
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, the biggest thing was I said,

462
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: I gotta go and fix those holes because that baggage

463
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 1: is becoming way too heavy for me. How did you

464
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: come to that realization? Because most people present company included

465
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: meander through life oblivious, leaving awake of death and destruction

466
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: behind them, and through distress, really through distress. What was

467
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: the distress that led you to that? Inside, I had

468
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: a six month period where my father died, So he

469
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: was he died at seventy two. Right at that time,

470
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, I was already very successful, um, and so

471
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 1: I had all this money. But my dad had been

472
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: a lot lifelong diabetic, no credible path to a kidney transplant.

473
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: He had a cardiac arrest. He was he was an

474
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: end stage renal failure and he died October. And then

475
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: six months later in May, my best friend died. We

476
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: were all on vacation together in Mexico and he died. UM.

477
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: And so it was just this gut punch, this one

478
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: too gut punch. One person who is this very complicated

479
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: figure in my life, and another person who is my

480
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: bigger brother and very much my protector. And without these two,

481
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: I was a little listless, to be honest. And that's

482
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: when I said, I have to figure out what's going

483
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: on and get to the bottom of this um. And

484
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: I don't know to this day why, because the other

485
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: you know, the other modality when you're like, if you

486
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 1: ask anybody you look at it really performing, you know

487
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: anybody who's really good at anything who grew up in

488
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: a really shitty environment. Sorry, you could say that, we'll

489
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: just be The reaction is to suppress and compartmentalized. That

490
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: is the most powerful coping mechanism you have. And for

491
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: whatever reason, in my mid thirties, I finally stopped trying

492
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: to do that as much. And then I found people

493
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: in my life who became these outlets that just start

494
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: pulling stuff out of me. Now this sounds really soft,

495
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: but it goes to when you look at the future

496
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: or when you look at your like when I look

497
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: at my heroes, one of the things that I see

498
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: is the common through line is that they've all become

499
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: exceptionally comfortable with themselves. They're not necessarily palatable to other people.

500
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: It means, it means nothing, but they they have done

501
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: that work and that's what allows them to be highly functional.

502
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: And when you look at folks like Buffett, or you

503
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: look at folks like Mike Bloomberg, how are you functional

504
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: and competent and so on point through so many decades

505
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: and changes, it's because they know who they are. They're

506
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: not asking you to like who they are. They like

507
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: who they are, and so I embraced that process. And

508
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: so it's a journey. So I am seven years in

509
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: to a journey, and these last seven years have been

510
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: very powerful because of that. I feel like I've been unshackled.

511
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: But those were those were uh, those are handcuffs that

512
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: I had made for myself. But that's still pretty young

513
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: to be that enlightened and self aware. Those of us

514
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: who have found that and and a lot of people

515
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: eventually find that, but it's not at thirty seven. It's

516
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: usually a little later in life. So first, kudos to

517
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: you for for picking that up so early. But second,

518
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: do you look around and see other peers and other

519
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: colleagues and say that guy would be great if or

520
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: that one will be fantastic if only he was a

521
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: little more self aware of the less it's less judgmental

522
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: than that, because that that is like if the if

523
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: only part. No, But I have now become hyper attuned

524
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: to the things that used to hold me back when

525
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: it manifests in other people, and I see it everywhere.

526
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: But I have a lot of empathy for that now.

527
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: So as whereas before I think I would have been

528
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: much more judgmental, Um, I'm a lot calmer about it,

529
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: and I and I and I'm more empathetic. And where

530
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: it helps, very practically speaking, is I'm still you know,

531
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: big shareholders in many companies, and the people that get

532
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: the benefit of that training for whatever it's worth to them,

533
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: or all my CEOs, as all the founders, they get it.

534
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: And uh, and I think I'm the edges on the margins.

535
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: I think some of them really appreciate it. I don't know.

536
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: I don't ask them, but not everybody is that zen

537
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: when real money is involved. Is that well, will it's

538
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: gonna be? What it's going to be? I could share

539
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: my wisdom. Is the biggest distraction you can create for

540
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: yourself if you want to do something useful. Isn't that fascinating?

541
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: Go and read the obituary of Steve Jobs that his

542
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: sister wrote in the New York Times. And I've said

543
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: this a couple of times, and I'll just repeat it

544
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: because it's so powerful. When he's on his deathbed, he's

545
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: not saying I invented the iPhone. He has his family

546
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: around him, and he's saying, oh wow, repeatedly, oh wow,

547
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: oh wow, oh Wow. My interpretation of that is that

548
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: he is talking about something that is so much more

549
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: important than money and accomplishments. It's a journey, it's an evolution.

550
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: It's basically feeling like you've had these great, beautiful relationships,

551
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: right and accounting, a real life accounting of your progress. Uh.

552
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: And I want to be on that journey so that

553
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: fifty years from now, sixty years from now, seventy years

554
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: from now, you know, touch with is as far away

555
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 1: as it takes. I want to be able to do that,

556
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: and so it allows me to not care one sintila.

557
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: Like I said, I have a little bit of money

558
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: that I put away to protect myself, but I don't

559
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: need the house I live in. I don't need the

560
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: plane I have. I don't need any of that crap.

561
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 1: I use it to make my life efficient, but I

562
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: don't need any of it. It doesn't define me. I

563
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: don't let how other people view me and let it

564
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: impact me. And that's really powerful. So let's stay with

565
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: the concept of money as getting in the way of

566
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: accomplishing things or of decision making. Right. I'm fond of

567
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: saying money is a tool and all a hammer could

568
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: be used to build a house or to break a window.

569
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: It's tools can be used and misused. But I want

570
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: to talk about this within the context of what you've

571
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: described as activist capitalism, and then we'll we'll get into

572
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: crypto shortly after that. Tell us what is activist capitalism.

573
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: If you want to make enormous amounts of returns, you

574
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: have to go where there is the most risk. So

575
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: meaning if if you if I said to you, hey, Barry,

576
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: can you become a trillionaire investing in bonds, you would say,

577
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: chamath not in a trillion years, right, There is zero

578
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: risk in that market. The returns are meager. But if

579
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: I said to you Berry, could you make a trillion

580
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: dollars in crypto? You would say absolutely. I don't know how,

581
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 1: but it's possible. But now think of what it really means.

582
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that you're taking massive, huge bets of capital.

583
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: In fact, you could make enormous returns. And you know,

584
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: I mean I have. I've made billions of dollars in crypto,

585
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: investing millions of dollars. So you didn't need to have

586
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: billions of dollars. What did you need? You needed to

587
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 1: have an extremely different point of view, and in many

588
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: ways that point of view isolates you, and so you

589
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: become a little bit of an activist. You have to

590
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: believe something that everybody else doesn't, that in that moment

591
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: is a little bit countercultural or counterintuitive, and you have

592
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: to hold the line. That's what activist capitalism is. It's

593
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: the ability to have these non consensus ideas and perspectives

594
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: and hold on for dear life. So let me push

595
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: back on that a touch only by saying you're located

596
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: in Palo Alto. All the other venture capitalists out in

597
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: California are mostly there on Sandhill Road and around it.

598
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: Wouldn't the more contrarian perspective be let me get out

599
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: of California and go somewhere else where I'm not part

600
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: of the same crowd looking at the same deals. I

601
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: think that's I think where you live is irrelevant. You know,

602
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: I live where I live because I like it, and

603
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: I like my backyard and uh, you know, I haven't

604
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: you know, nice house, and uh time, it's great, my

605
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: friends are around. Um, that's why I live where I live. Um.

606
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: The ideas that I find in our yard oftentimes are

607
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: really countercultural to what the orthodox perspective is in that moment,

608
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: I don't need to move to Austin or Miami to

609
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: find that. I can find that where I live. It

610
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: comes down to are you willing to buck the establishment

611
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: and how the establishment measures you to be an activist?

612
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: So let's stay with that. And there's another quote of

613
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: yours that I have to bring up, Crypto destroys capitalism

614
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: and that's better for the world. Explain that, because that's

615
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: quite a nuanced perspective. We're replacing what capitalism is. There

616
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: are small pockets of how it will work in the future.

617
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: I think venture capital is an embodiment of that. But

618
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: the overwhelming amount of capitalism today is inefficient, and it's

619
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: supported by decision making and constructs that are artificial. So

620
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: let me be specific. Today the entire financial infrastructure of

621
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: the world is in part merit, and in part historical artifact,

622
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: and in part um establishment and prestige. I go to

623
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: a good school, I play lacrosse. I'm a three letter athlete.

624
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 1: I get into an IVY. I go through IVY, then

625
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: I go work at a bulge bracket firm. Then maybe

626
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: I go and I get an m b A at

627
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: one of these said ivys that I go back to

628
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: said bulge bracket firm. Then I go to the buy side.

629
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: I work at a blue chip hatch fund. Maybe I

630
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: start my own. I know all of my buddies, My

631
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: buddies did the same things, and eventually what happens is

632
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: there's not enough diversity. And I don't mean diversity and

633
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: like skin color and religion and sexual orientation. I mean

634
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: diversity in your mind. You know which is you have

635
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: been playing by a very rope playbook. And if everybody

636
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: else that's also at the top echelons of a pecking

637
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 1: order are playing by that same playbook, you all become

638
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: a monoclass. You're predictable. The same factory is producing the

639
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: same thing. You could be. You could be brown, yellow, black, white.

640
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: You went through them. You could be male, female, it

641
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. You went through the same things. You were

642
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: rewarded by the same mechanisms. You were taught Pavlovian like

643
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: a Pavlovian dog to behave in one way. And then

644
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: you armed people with money and say go do what

645
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: you think is right. Imbue the markets force into the world,

646
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: and they're all going to do the same. They're all

647
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: going to do the same thing. That's why capitalism isn't working.

648
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: It's not working for enough people because we have a

649
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: mono class of people that control the money. So what's

650
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: the solution to that. So when you look at Defy,

651
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 1: and when you look at Bitcoin, and when you look

652
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: at Ethereum and Salana and all of these projects, are

653
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: three principles that rip that industry and entitlement and establishment apart.

654
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: Number one is that it's completely decentralized. So instead of

655
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: having these centers of power. You have loose affiliations. Why

656
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: is that so disruptive? It's because you can't go and

657
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 1: get a gold star from working at x y Z organization. Right,

658
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: there's no more hierarchy. There's no ladder decline, no middleman

659
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: charging a fee in between every no different There's no

660
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: place where you can say I worked at x y Z,

661
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: so I am as a result, smarter than you. Right,

662
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 1: if you work at a bulge bracket firm, you look

663
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: at people that haven't worked there as lesser than you.

664
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: That's what people do. But in a world of decentralization,

665
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: where there's all these projects and you know there's there

666
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: are no companies anymore, um, you have completely different ways

667
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: in which organizations get built. You have completely different ways

668
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: in which regulations have to adapt because you can't control

669
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: these projects. Um. And as a result of all of

670
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: these things, you have very different outcomes. And the outcomes

671
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: are now you have diversity. All kinds of crazy random

672
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 1: people thinking, all kinds of crazy random things are now

673
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: acting through these tools to rebuild capitalism the way they want.

674
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: I want, you know, checking accounts to work this way.

675
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 1: I want mortgages to work that way. I want credit

676
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: scoring to work the other way. I want insurance to

677
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: work this way. By the way, it's not just finance.

678
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: I want art to work in the other way. That's

679
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 1: how n f t s are right. I want music

680
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: to work in this way. I want social networks to

681
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: work in the other way. There are thousands and thousands

682
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: of these projects being built that are completely decentralized, completely democratic,

683
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, completely a p I ified. It's hugely disruptive

684
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 1: for capitalism because it introduces massive heterogen eighty right, massive

685
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: diversity in the people that control the allocation of the money.

686
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: Number one, and then number two. Of the reason why

687
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: it's super disruptive is all of this either damage your progress.

688
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: Depending on which side of the ledger you want to

689
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: can get started with a few thousand, ten thousand, hundred

690
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And so now you don't need five hundred

691
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: million dollars, You don't need to go to four growth

692
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: funds to raise half a billion dollars because you're one thousand.

693
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: You know, you're one thousand. Dollar investment can literally become

694
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: half a billion dollars. So now you democratize who can

695
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: play the game. You can democratize the capital allocation. So

696
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: now there's a diversity of ideas, there's a diversity of

697
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: people putting money to work. It's a brave new world.

698
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: What's the third bullet point you had, you had referenced,

699
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 1: So it's democratization, it's decentralization, and then it's what I

700
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: call decompose ability, meaning um, the beautiful thing about this

701
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: brave new world as well is without company, ease and

702
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: without project, without you know, hierarchy, there's enormous amounts of cooperation.

703
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: And the basic way to think about this brave new

704
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: world of crypto is using legos. I have an idea,

705
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: I build something with all the legos that have come

706
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: before me. But there's only one rule, Barry. If you

707
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: use the legos, you yourself have to be a lego

708
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: to somebody else. And that's what compose ability and decomposability means.

709
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: Those are the three pillars of this brave new world,

710
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: and it's going to rewrite capitalism. I build an organization

711
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't have a company around it. I make everything

712
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: hyper transparent. It takes small amounts of money to completely

713
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: blow up entrenched interests, and then all of that value

714
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: I must make available to anybody else. And I cannot

715
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: say no to them. Think of how the world today works.

716
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 1: That's not how it works. If you wanted to build

717
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: an app on the Apple App Store, they can say no,

718
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: you got to get their approval, And if and even

719
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,439
Speaker 1: if you get their approval, there's nothing that prevents them.

720
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: As epic games have slurens of saying, we're gonna pull back.

721
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: We don't like what you're doing. So so let me

722
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: ask what I think is an obvious question. Capitalism has

723
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: proven itself extremely adept at co opting challenges to itself.

724
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: The old line um capitalism, which capitalists would sell you

725
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: the rope to hang himself by, turns out not to

726
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: be all that true, because the capitalist is also gonna

727
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: be selling tickets to the crowd and building hotels, and

728
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: before you know it, what was going to be a

729
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: single event becomes a giant economic engine. What's going to

730
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: prevent those existing bulge bracket firms, Ivy League schools, endowments,

731
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: the usual uh capitalists from plowing into crypto and blockchain

732
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: and all the fun stuff and but co opting it

733
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: so it becomes just part of a capital firmament. It's

734
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: not you're saying, it's not. It's not cooptible. It's not.

735
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 1: But I think that they should be a part of it.

736
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 1: I I don't like exclusion. I am like a inclusion maximalist.

737
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: Like you know, what is the like the mission of

738
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 1: social capital, right or a vision? I have a vision

739
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: at our firm. We right, We talked about it all

740
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: the time. Which is even the starting line. Now, imagine

741
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: you had a world where you could find the smartest

742
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: rocket scientist, the smartest mathematician, the smartest biochemist, the smartest

743
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: materials engineer, the smartest AI person, the smartest artist, the

744
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: best seamstress, whatever it is. The world today doesn't allow

745
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: us to find the best human capital, as expressed in

746
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: any of the things we need to move the world forward.

747
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: Why if you're a woman in the wrong country, you're screwed.

748
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: If you're a colored man in the wrong country, you're screwed.

749
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: If you're you know, Jewish or not Jewish in a

750
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: certain country, you're screwed. If you're you know, gay in

751
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: this country or that country, you're screwed. If you're in

752
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: the wrong cast in this other country. I mean, like

753
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: the amount of limitations we put on maximizing human potential

754
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 1: is insane. Half the world doesn't allow people to reach

755
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: their potential. It's probably more um and it's all by design.

756
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: We choose to let these inefficiencies compound. And so you know,

757
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: I believe that we are way better off where there's

758
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: a race, right. My My vision is like there's a

759
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: starting line, the gun goes off. Everybody on the earth

760
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: is on an even playing field to start, not to end,

761
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: but to start, and some people will take the off

762
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: ramp and become, you know, a fashion designer and you

763
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 1: would say, how did this guy come out of nowhere

764
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: to become you know? Or some people go off and

765
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 1: do music in a way that you never thought was possible,

766
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: and there'll be such a renaissance of possibilities. So I'm

767
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: an inclusion maximal, which is, let's get everybody into the party,

768
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,720
Speaker 1: gave everybody the same tools, and then let's see what happens.

769
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: It's so fair and just for people. And what I

770
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: don't like is because I went to x y Z school,

771
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: or because my last name is x y z, or

772
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: because you know I worked at x y Z place,

773
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: I should have some advantage and I don't think that's right.

774
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,959
Speaker 1: So I'm am I being overly optimistic in saying that

775
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 1: world you've described bulge bracket farms, big banks, ivy league schools.

776
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 1: It's a very twentieth century construct, and it was pretty

777
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 1: clear early in the twenty one century that that was

778
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: losing its grip on on the economy, on the government,

779
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: and on capitalism itself. Or am I am I just

780
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: being too pollyanish with that. I think you're I would

781
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: not include like you know, Look, I think the financial

782
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: organizations have enormous potential to adapt and be an incredible

783
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: participant in the future. And I think that there's so

784
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: many good people inside these banks and organizations that I

785
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: think will thrive. So I'm kind of convinced they're they're

786
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: on the side of history going to be judged well.

787
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: I have much more of an issue with universities. I

788
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: think they're fundamentally on the wrong side of history, and

789
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: I think that they have done an enormous disservice to

790
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: so many of our kids and parents because basically in

791
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: the nineteen look, if you take the cost of a

792
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: university education and you graph it as a function of time,

793
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: and you put one single dot on it as a

794
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 1: trigger for price inflation, I would annotate that dot as

795
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: the two U S News and World Report that started

796
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: to create university rankings in America. It literally you can

797
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,439
Speaker 1: see that costs were contained until that stupid magazine tried

798
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: to create this insert to sell ads. By the way,

799
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 1: so what were they motivated by. They were motivated by,

800
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 1: you know, selling CPM inventory to like R. G R.

801
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: Reynolds and Ford. Right, paper ads in a magazine has

802
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 1: all of a sudden tricked university administrators to think that

803
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,720
Speaker 1: this is a luxury good that should be meted out

804
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: like a reservation line to get a nerm as person.

805
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: That is insanity. And especially in the world where we

806
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: can have you know, uh, pervasive internet connectivity, where we

807
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: can find the best grade five science teacher, you know,

808
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: the best you know, AP calculus teacher, that we're not

809
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: letting all of humanity benefit from that to me is insanity.

810
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: So and then on top of that, there's this moral

811
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: overlay now inside of universities where they will also then

812
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 1: now make judgments about what you can be taught. And

813
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: so what that effectively does is rob people from the

814
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: ability to learn from first principles, right to attack idea

815
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: down to the basics and build a back up, which

816
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: is a tool. Kid, It's a process thing. So I

817
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: I am very negative on universities and what they've done

818
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 1: culturally and academically and institutional in societally in America. Uh

819
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: less so about Like you know, I think financial firms

820
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: in general will be great participants of this new capitalist ecosystem,

821
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: but I think the universities have completely failed. That's quite

822
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 1: an interesting take, and I know a few people who

823
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: share versions of that perspectives on both the left and

824
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 1: the right. The criticism of the of the US college

825
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: and university system is is pretty robust. Let's stick with

826
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: one more um criticism. We'll talk about zombie companies. You

827
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: had criticized the pandemic bailout of companies by the US government.

828
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: Tell us what you specifically, Uh, we're unhappy with when

829
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: it came to entities like airlines, I have no issue.

830
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: I want to be clear with airlines. Um, and quite honestly,

831
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: I have Uh. You know, look, when a company, I

832
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: just want to set the table stakes. When a company

833
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: goes through bankruptcy, any company, you know, it can happen

834
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: in a way that preserves employment for all of the employees.

835
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: It can happen in a way that preserves pensions. Now,

836
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: you know, rapacious people who take over companies and force

837
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: them into backgrountcy can do all kinds of bad things,

838
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: but it's also possible that you can do it in

839
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 1: this other way as well. What I was reacting to

840
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: in that moment was that we were about to reward

841
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: a behavior. So I had no issue with airlines, but

842
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: I had I had an issue with the following behavior. Barry.

843
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: We have seen R and D investment inside of America's

844
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: companies effectively go to zero over the last twenty years.

845
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: We've seen instead buy backs replace R and D investment.

846
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 1: In that same period of time, we've seen compensation plans

847
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: get written by boards that completely reward a manipulation of

848
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: earnings per share. And then we see c e O

849
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 1: s optimizing earnings per share by pilfering all of this

850
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: money that should go into R and D into buy backs.

851
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: And the airlines, to be very honest, were one of

852
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: the worst offenders of that. The airline's new climate change

853
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: was coming. Did they invest in a fuel stock that

854
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: was basically more carbon efficient over the last years, Did

855
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,720
Speaker 1: we figure out a way to do more efficient plane routing?

856
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: Did we influence how Boeing and Airbus really built those

857
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: airplanes to be you know, to have better wing designs. No,

858
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: they optimized for massive free cash flow, and they optimized

859
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: for share buy backs, and they optimized for massive compensation

860
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: plans to the CEOs of those companies. Now, in fairness

861
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: to the airlines, it wasn't just them, it was entire industries.

862
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 1: And then the idea that you go on you bail

863
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: them out before you bail out individual folks on main street,

864
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 1: to me seemed very unfair. And I thought, what would

865
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: be better would be to show people that actually we

866
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: want to reward R and D, you know, we want

867
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: to make buy backs harder. And by the way, if

868
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: you look at what's proposed in the current you know,

869
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: plans that are in front of Congress, there are elements

870
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: of what I proposed. Right, folks are being forced to basically,

871
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 1: they will be taxed on buy backs. Great idea. I

872
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: think the tax should be much higher, um and then

873
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: they should be there. And there are some incentives for

874
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,959
Speaker 1: R and D, and I wish those incentives were higher. Now,

875
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: put all these things together, why is that idea so

876
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:54,839
Speaker 1: powerful today? Sitting here in two thousand and twenty one. Um, yeah,

877
00:52:54,880 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 1: we're in September. We're seeing China unravel, right, We're seeing

878
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: the great vertical integration of the second largest economy in

879
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 1: the world. And what that's going to create is a

880
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: national security interest for us to be reliant on ourselves

881
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 1: and to be diversified in who we work with around

882
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 1: the world. That requires an enormous amount of R and D.

883
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: So you cannot keep doing share buy backs and compensation

884
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,879
Speaker 1: schemes to CEOs. The right CEOs in the SMP five

885
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:40,240
Speaker 1: should be planning twent of free cash flow to solve

886
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: these problems because these are of national interest and national security.

887
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: That's a really interesting place to take it. I was

888
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: not expecting you to go there. We think of China

889
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 1: as both a I'm not going to use the word

890
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: that everybody uses and it's terrible, but both uh a

891
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: industrial real ally and an economic competitor. You're taking this

892
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: to the whole next level. National security requires us to

893
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: bring back a lot of the manufacturing that we've outsourced

894
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 1: to China, whether it's semiconductors or something less sophisticated. China

895
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: is a friend of me. That's the word I was

896
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: trying to avoid there an exceptionally intelligent, brilliant freen of me,

897
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 1: and so we have to be extremely thoughtful and strategic

898
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: and how we engage in them with them. But here

899
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:36,919
Speaker 1: are a couple of things that I think will come

900
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: to pass. G is the new Mau. There is only

901
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: one economy, and then that's China inc. And China will

902
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 1: have to deal with their you know, a lot of

903
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: all of this, by the way, is motivated, is motivated

904
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,919
Speaker 1: by demographics. China is a demographic time bomb and it's

905
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: probably already gone off. And this is why I think

906
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,879
Speaker 1: G is acting much more aggressively than he has when

907
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 1: you say demographic time bomb. It was the single child,

908
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: single child policy for far too long. There's not enough girls,

909
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: there's too many men, and they're they're an aging population.

910
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 1: I mean all of those boundary conditions. You know, young

911
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: capable men. We're great fodder for industrial manufacturing and automation

912
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 1: and exports during the nineties and two thousand's, but now

913
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,879
Speaker 1: these men are forty and fifty. There's not enough women,

914
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 1: there's not enough kids, and so it's a huge problem

915
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: for China. And you know, right now, I think the

916
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: forecast is you know, again, the outside in projections, are

917
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,919
Speaker 1: China's gonna shrink by half by the end of It's

918
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 1: probably worse than that, based on my observation of how

919
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: she is acting now. Because if you can vertically integrate

920
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 1: the economy, you control upcomes better and then you can

921
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: basically have a software landing for the people that are there.

922
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,320
Speaker 1: That's but as that's happening, it is beyond the shadow

923
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 1: of a doubt that China at some point will engage

924
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: in some sort of foreign adventure. The only foreign adventure

925
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,240
Speaker 1: that makes sense for them is time, and so we

926
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: will be pulled into an enormous decision. What do we

927
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: have to do today? We have to invest, but not

928
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,959
Speaker 1: just in semiconductors. It's an example of a problem where

929
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: China controls the overwhelming majority of the rare earth. So

930
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: to the extent that we believe in electrification, we have

931
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 1: to do stuff there to the to the extent we

932
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: believe in solar panels. Even a lot of the you know,

933
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: polycar silicon carbonate is made in China. Why, by the way,

934
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: because China has coal and you need enormous heat and

935
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: enormous energy to produce solar panels. So that raises a

936
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 1: pretty obvious question, how do you compete with the country

937
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: that thinks in terms of decades. When we were recording

938
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: this a few days before the death ceiling vote takes place,

939
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: we can't even think in terms of hours and days.

940
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 1: How do you compete against the country that thinks in

941
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: terms of decades and century. It's an elegant big I

942
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: would go back. It's an a good way to tie

943
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: back to the beginning. The venture capitalist and the engineer

944
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:09,959
Speaker 1: and the entrepreneur are the most important that they've ever been.

945
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: And when you marry that cohort of people with a

946
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: more decentralized form of capitalism, what I think eventually you

947
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: will have is a lot more bets, a lot more

948
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: ambitious bets, and some bets that are frankly more duration

949
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: weighted twenty year bets. You know, and you see some

950
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: folks right now that have done this, the work that

951
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 1: Breakthrough Energy Ventures Bill Gates organization has done to fund nuclear.

952
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to hear people's opinions on

953
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: nuclear because most people's opinions are uninformed. The real thing

954
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 1: about nuclear is that if you strip away perceptional issues,

955
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: this is a real technical solution to climate change in decarbonization,

956
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: it just is um but it required, you know, a

957
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: sentibillionaire to basically plow billions of dollars of his own

958
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: any over twenty tens and twenty years at the time.

959
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: So I think that we are solving the problem, but

960
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: we just need to accelerate it. The risk that we

961
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: have is actually one of ideology, which is what you said,

962
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: which is that we've actually unfortunately demoralized capitalists, We've demoralized entrepreneurs,

963
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: We've demoralized engineers, we've demoralized moderates. And that is what

964
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: we need to fix because sometimes I don't know if

965
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: you feel this way. I wonder to myself, should I

966
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: feel guilty for being a business person, you know, because

967
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 1: it's like it's like there's a level of vilification and

968
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: vitriol that I think is it's it's it's misplaced. Well,

969
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 1: there's this general frustration and anger, um. And we'll talk

970
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: a little bit about social media that does such a

971
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: wonderful job amplifying and misinforming people. But there's a sense that,

972
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, Apple and Amazon don't pay their fair share

973
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 1: of tax is and that the system has been rigged

974
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: by the moneyed class. Who lobby Congress to get rules

975
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 1: that pass for themselves, and that that the level playing

976
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: field that you so eloquently described has been precluded by

977
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: the has wanting to maintain what they have and not

978
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: allow anybody else to even get a hand on the

979
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 1: lowest wrung on the ladder. Absolutely right, all those things

980
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 1: are right. So what the next question is what can

981
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 1: we do about it? If we're not sent to billionaires

982
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: with the ability to bring thorium reactors or whatever Bill

983
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 1: Gates is working on to the four what can the

984
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: average person do to accelerate the change that we all

985
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 1: know is so needed. A. There's a really beautiful question,

986
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: and well said. People can vote with their time, and

987
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: in order to do that properly, you need places to

988
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 1: allocate that time that give you this kind of purpose.

989
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: And so there should be more nuclear reactor companies that

990
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: exist so that more people can choose to work there.

991
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: You don't need to be a nuclear scientist. They need accountants,

992
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: they need lawyers, they need you know, all kinds of

993
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: different people. I t people, you know, they need facilities people.

994
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 1: So there's these breakthroughs in science. There should be more

995
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: of these. The first part is really the critical part

996
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: of what you said, we need to reframe the legislation.

997
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: We shouldn't be preventing people from trying. We should take

998
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 1: or fix the laws that make trying hard. I'll give

999
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: you an example. One of the most important things that

1000
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: we could do for society in the United States is

1001
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 1: to fix chronic kidney disease, hypertension, and heart disease. We

1002
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: all know three in the US. We either all have

1003
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: it or we all know people with it. We're all

1004
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 1: taking some form of medication for it. Okay, there has

1005
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 1: not been nearly as much progress in these things over

1006
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: the last few years because, unfortunately, we have some legislation

1007
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 1: that says that if you want to go and you know,

1008
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: invest in diabetes type two diabetes solutions or you know,

1009
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: heart disease or whatnot, you have to also, after all

1010
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: of that work is done, which we already know costs

1011
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: billions of dollars, spend another couple billion dollars and have

1012
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: a ten person longitudinal trial on cardiac safety as well.

1013
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 1: That's just kind of like a standard upbringing procedure. You

1014
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: know what that does. Well, if you take a billion

1015
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: dollars of costs and lay on another billion dollars of costs.

1016
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 1: What you basically say is like, well, maybe the available

1017
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 1: number of companies that could fix this problem or a hundred,

1018
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 1: you reduce them to ten. And they're all public, and

1019
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: they're all beholden to public shareholders. And none of them

1020
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 1: are going to come out and put out a press

1021
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: release that says, now we're just gonna torch earnings for

1022
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 1: the next two years while we go off on this.

1023
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 1: You know, they're not gonna do it. So we need

1024
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 1: to change and refactor some of these laws. But we

1025
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 1: so I think I think the solution is to not

1026
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: demoralize the people who earnestly want to be on in

1027
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: the arena. You know, again, the Roosevelt quote is so good.

1028
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 1: It's like, you want to be the person that's in

1029
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: the arena with the dust on your face. You're gonna

1030
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: have some wins, you're gonna have some losses, but you're

1031
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: not on the sidelines. And you just got to give

1032
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 1: those folks a chance to try. And I think if

1033
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: we can fix some of these laws and regulations, they'll

1034
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 1: be less entrenched interest and they'll be more entrepreneurship. Quite

1035
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: quite fascinating, you know. I've had people tell me to moth.

1036
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: You got lucky. You've had far too many successes for

1037
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: me to think that this is the result of random luck,

1038
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 1: including you tried to buy the Sacramento Kings. It didn't

1039
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: work out, but a friend said, hey, you oh, this

1040
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 1: is back before the age of Curry, before the Warriors

1041
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: were Hey, you know, I'm looking to pick up the

1042
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 1: Golden State Warriors. Would would you like ten percent of it?

1043
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: You're like, well, okay, you put twenty five million into

1044
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 1: it last year. I think that million was worth half

1045
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: a billion. What's it worth now is it? That's about

1046
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 1: half a billion? Alright, So that's what Uh, that's a

1047
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: lot of That's so anybody who says I just got lucky,

1048
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: you can't get that lucky that frequently and recognize opportunity

1049
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 1: when it comes along. So first I have to ask

1050
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 1: what's it like being a team owner or partial owner?

1051
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: It's incredible fun, right, You know that I built some

1052
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 1: deep relationships with a bunch of the players past and present. Um,

1053
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: you know, we've had a lot of really great moments together, friendships. Um,

1054
01:03:57,920 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: you know, I found a lot of kinship in these

1055
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 1: players because they're they're a lot like me as well,

1056
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 1: like it's like you get committed to a craft, you

1057
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 1: get committed to excellence. We all had very similar backgrounds

1058
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 1: as well growing up, so there's a lot of you know,

1059
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 1: shared empathy and just having you know, tough childhood circumstances

1060
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: and fighting through it. Um They're they're great. I mean

1061
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 1: there there are are they are there are three Um

1062
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 1: of all of the guys I've that I've become unbelievably

1063
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: close to. Um, Um who I would say are my

1064
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: my dear friends. You know. So overall, the whole experience

1065
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 1: just sounds like it's just an absolute blast everything you

1066
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about SPACs. You've done really

1067
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 1: well with SPACs, including talked about twenty year time Horizon

1068
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: Virgin Galactic. I mean that is not a let's make

1069
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 1: the next quarters numbers. That's a decade long process. What

1070
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 1: attracted you to that company? Um? When I got under

1071
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 1: the hood of Virgin, I was attracted to how complicated, um,

1072
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,400
Speaker 1: the solution was and how many things they had to

1073
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 1: put together. UM. Because so I had a different business

1074
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,439
Speaker 1: at the time, which I still own a large piece

1075
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 1: of I'm the largest investor of, but it's the second

1076
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 1: most valuable private space company after SpaceX, it's called Relativity

1077
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 1: Space and Relativity had decided to try to three D

1078
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 1: print the whole shebang, the engines, the rock and everything

1079
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 1: and uh and and it was an incredibly ambitious project

1080
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: and it's you know, and now it's a multi billion

1081
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: dollar company and you know, touch wood that it's successful.

1082
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: But in all of that, I had learned how technically

1083
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 1: complicated space was, and I fell in love with it.

1084
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 1: But I had also learned how building for space allows

1085
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 1: you to build for the Earth. So then when I

1086
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: encountered you know, virgin and Branson, uh, you know, I

1087
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 1: was like, I can't believe, Richard, you have spent so

1088
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 1: much time and dedicated so much money um to this endeavor.

1089
01:05:56,360 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: These guys had created an revolutionary design and for a

1090
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: plane um and I say plane specifically because most rockets

1091
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 1: go up and down vertically, and Richard's you know, engineering

1092
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 1: was for a horizontal takeoff and landing. And when I

1093
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 1: explored that further, you know, his vision was not just

1094
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 1: to be able to go to space, but then to

1095
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: also go two different points on the Earth. And to

1096
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: use that same rocket, they had had to build their

1097
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 1: own hybrid rocket engine. They had to design fuel. They

1098
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: had to all this incredible stuff, and to me, what

1099
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: I saw were a lot of embedded option value. Um

1100
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 1: and so I was really proud to be a part

1101
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: of that. And what they're doing, I think is very special.

1102
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 1: So you've also been very successful in the spack space,

1103
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 1: the special purpose acquisition UH Vehicle company. Tell us a

1104
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 1: little bit what attracted you to SPACs. They have a

1105
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 1: long history. I don't think the average investor realizes SPACs

1106
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 1: have been around for decades. They just seemed to find

1107
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 1: a new popularity over the past a couple of years. So, um, yeah,

1108
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 1: I'll tell you my motivations um there too. One is

1109
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:11,520
Speaker 1: very selfish, which is I want to own pieces of

1110
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 1: great businesses for as long as possible. And there are

1111
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 1: businesses that I've known in Silicon Valley being you know,

1112
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 1: birthed and growing up over the years where for whatever

1113
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 1: set of reasons, I wasn't an investor in in the

1114
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 1: private markets, but I was like, Wow, these could be

1115
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 1: really great businesses, and you know, I wanted to get

1116
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 1: to know them, and in that process, SPACs were a

1117
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 1: great way for me to compound my capital. Why because

1118
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 1: I am an enormously large investor in these things, right,

1119
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 1: So you know, the way SPACs work is that you

1120
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 1: put up a little bit of money for the potential

1121
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 1: of a huge return, and that's where most people start

1122
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 1: and stop. I do something additional, which is then I

1123
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: lead a pipe and I put a lot of my

1124
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,200
Speaker 1: own money. Minimum the smallest pipe I've ever and there's

1125
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:01,920
Speaker 1: a hundred million and the biggest I think is closer

1126
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 1: to fifty. I can't remember the exact number. But the

1127
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 1: point is that I love the process of putting my

1128
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 1: own money to work in a way where I have

1129
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:14,520
Speaker 1: to really pay attention and make a really good decision.

1130
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 1: It's an incredible process. So that's my part. But then

1131
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,799
Speaker 1: the second part, back to what we talked about before,

1132
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 1: I do think this is a way of creating more

1133
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: uh an even playing field. I think that you know,

1134
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: typically I p o s of hot shot tech companies

1135
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 1: are reserved to folks like me, rich guys with lots

1136
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 1: of assets, who have great relationships with the banks, and

1137
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 1: you just get fed these deals um and again, I

1138
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 1: think it's better where there's an even playing field and

1139
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 1: everybody has a shot to find these um to find

1140
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:55,559
Speaker 1: these gems, and the spack is really clever because you

1141
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,600
Speaker 1: can bet on the person who can find the company.

1142
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:00,679
Speaker 1: You can also then if you don't like the company,

1143
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 1: redeem and get all your money back. So there's this

1144
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 1: downside protection. You can buy it in so many different

1145
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 1: points in time in the cycle, you know, before you

1146
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 1: find a target, once you found a target, after the

1147
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: target has been you know, bought and despact. I think

1148
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: that embedded optionality is actually really beneficial for retail individuals

1149
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 1: because they have many bites at the apple to make

1150
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 1: a good decision. And that's very different from when you know,

1151
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 1: you typically buy a stock, where you're now really wedded

1152
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 1: to that decision. Um. But the redemption features of this

1153
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 1: back I think are very powerful and and and not

1154
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 1: not talked about enough. So so let's stick with the

1155
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,840
Speaker 1: concept of the laying level playing field and and not

1156
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 1: seeing deals only flow to folks like you. Um, let's

1157
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 1: talk about angel lists and influencers and others that are

1158
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:57,560
Speaker 1: have have great deals. So it's not just So the

1159
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:01,479
Speaker 1: first question is a does this create competition for deal

1160
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 1: flow with folks like you? Yes, and I think that

1161
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 1: that's right and good and and be what is the

1162
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 1: result of that competition gonna be are are we going

1163
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 1: to see venture capital eventually decentralized? And I think that

1164
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:18,639
Speaker 1: that's incredible really, So so what does that look like?

1165
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:22,680
Speaker 1: What does DFI VC look like ten years hence? So

1166
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 1: Phase one was things like Angelists, which was building the

1167
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:32,639
Speaker 1: infrastructure so that um, smaller funds and SPVs like single

1168
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 1: purpose vehicles or special purpose vehicles could get created in

1169
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 1: an automated way. Step two is happening right now, which

1170
01:10:39,320 --> 01:10:42,519
Speaker 1: is that individuals are taking the leap and saying, I

1171
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 1: don't need to be a part of my you know, uh,

1172
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 1: an infrastructure. I'm gonna be I'm gonna hang a shingle

1173
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna do it my own. And there's some

1174
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:53,760
Speaker 1: incredible solo gps. Some of them are some of the

1175
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 1: most successful investors in the world. Um, and I'm really

1176
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 1: fascinated by that. So now what's happening is sort of

1177
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 1: what I did back in the day. You know, in

1178
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,200
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten I called Embarcadera Ventures because at

1179
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:10,600
Speaker 1: the time I lived on Embarcadero Road and uh, but

1180
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 1: to see that to go from that to you know,

1181
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,600
Speaker 1: folks like a lot gil or in Zev you know,

1182
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 1: Locky Groom, Um, you know, bridget loud. These people are crushing.

1183
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 1: They're crushing, and I'm like, God, that's incredible. So that's

1184
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:27,440
Speaker 1: the second phase. You're going from groups of people to individuals.

1185
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 1: And then the third phase after this as I suspect

1186
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:33,519
Speaker 1: that you'll do a little bit more automated so that

1187
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:36,400
Speaker 1: it's less biased than that. You know, for example, like

1188
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: you know a company, Like if you think about a

1189
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 1: company today, Barry, you're gonna build it on top of stripe,

1190
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 1: on top of quick books, on top of all of

1191
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 1: this software. Why can't you just submit all of that

1192
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:49,600
Speaker 1: data into some a p I and the next generation

1193
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: of you know, venture firms will just look at all

1194
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 1: that data and say this is good, here's your check,

1195
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:56,559
Speaker 1: and be done with it. You know, no pitch meetings,

1196
01:11:56,880 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 1: you know, none of that stuff. That just seems so inefficient.

1197
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:02,519
Speaker 1: So I think that's the acce iteration. It's inefficient, but

1198
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 1: it gives people places to go, excuses to maintain their authority,

1199
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: power and wealth. And who wants to give that up?

1200
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 1: It's very challenging. No wants to give it up. I'm

1201
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 1: probably the only one that speaks about it all the time. Ah,

1202
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 1: and it probably you know, sometimes ticks off my peers.

1203
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 1: But it's better. It's like change, change is good. Let's

1204
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 1: just see what the other side looks like. So let

1205
01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:34,360
Speaker 1: one last question about giving a power. You you worked

1206
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 1: shoulder to shoulder with Zuck at at Facebook, but you've

1207
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:42,640
Speaker 1: been somewhat critical about what Facebook has turned into. What

1208
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 1: sort of advice would you give Zuck today in terms

1209
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:51,840
Speaker 1: of putting Facebook back on a more positive path. Well,

1210
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 1: they are now operating from an enormous trust deficit. Um.

1211
01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 1: I've worked with a lot of people. There are a

1212
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 1: lot of those folks that are in the senior ranks

1213
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:04,519
Speaker 1: worked for me when I was there. I really love

1214
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 1: the people. Um. I think that the best path forward

1215
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:12,759
Speaker 1: is to go to the regulators and figure out how

1216
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 1: to write a legislative framework that allows them to implement

1217
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 1: some rules that are scalable. You know, I think the

1218
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 1: fig leaf is now pretty much gone about about section

1219
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 1: two thirty. You know, I think that they're a publisher.

1220
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:33,360
Speaker 1: That's pretty much clear. Um. So it's about it's but

1221
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:36,840
Speaker 1: but ultimately, honestly, here's the thing, Barry. You have an

1222
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 1: almost trillion dollar company. It's getting attacked by Apple, who

1223
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 1: is trying to literally eviscerate the Facebook business model and

1224
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 1: lift the value of the rest of the Internet and

1225
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:52,440
Speaker 1: the inventory on the Internet. You have all these decentralized

1226
01:13:52,520 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 1: projects now that are trying to reconstruct social hierarchy in

1227
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 1: a way that's more measurable and transparent. You have regulators

1228
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 1: all around the world that are clamoring for something to happen.

1229
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,920
Speaker 1: And then you have these mental health issues now for

1230
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: for a parent with a child that you we all

1231
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 1: have now a responsibility to deal with. I think if

1232
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:17,759
Speaker 1: folks were willing to let that company be one quarter

1233
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: of its market cap, you can probably implement a bunch

1234
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,360
Speaker 1: of rules. It would just mean that, you know, a

1235
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:26,920
Speaker 1: small number of people would be much less rich. But

1236
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 1: then I think the rest of society wouldn't care that

1237
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 1: much and they would continue to use Facebook. Interesting, and

1238
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 1: before we get to our favorite questions, we ask all

1239
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 1: our guests, I gotta throw you a curveball. Uh, you

1240
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 1: were pretty successful at the World Series of Poker events.

1241
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 1: You you one, you placed a hundred first, which is

1242
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 1: in the main event. Alright, that's that's a substantial number.

1243
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 1: What and totally card dead by the way, I mean,

1244
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:56,679
Speaker 1: if I got if I got even a few cards,

1245
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 1: I could have made an even deeper. So so here's

1246
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 1: the question. What are the parallels between holds him no limit,

1247
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 1: texas holds him everything? And and venture and investing every

1248
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:17,120
Speaker 1: question I want in life? Everything explained. You start life

1249
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:24,080
Speaker 1: in some situation. You start poker with a stack of chips.

1250
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 1: In life, you could be born to the richest man

1251
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:31,400
Speaker 1: in the world. You could be born in poverty. You

1252
01:15:31,439 --> 01:15:34,599
Speaker 1: could be born with a disability. Right, so it's your

1253
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 1: Your stack is different, right. Some people have a huge stack,

1254
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:40,640
Speaker 1: some people have no stack. Poker, same thing. There will

1255
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: always be somebody at the table who can buy in

1256
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 1: for more than you. In life, you then have to

1257
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 1: make bets. You have to take some shots. Who do

1258
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 1: I trust, Who do I fall in love with? Who

1259
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 1: do I work with? Who do I go to school with?

1260
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 1: Where do I go to school? What job do I take?

1261
01:15:56,400 --> 01:16:00,479
Speaker 1: In poker, you make bets, which part do I play?

1262
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 1: When do I raise? When do I call? How much

1263
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 1: do I risk? In life, you sometimes make all the

1264
01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:13,559
Speaker 1: right decisions, horrible outcome, sometimes all the wrong decisions, great outcome,

1265
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:19,240
Speaker 1: Sometimes all the right decisions, right outcomes. Poker, same thing.

1266
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,839
Speaker 1: Poker is a chance for you to see that pattern,

1267
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:27,720
Speaker 1: take a step back and realize how much of is

1268
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 1: really in your control and how much of it is not.

1269
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 1: And if you really pay attention, poker teaches you that

1270
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:40,720
Speaker 1: the process is in your control, and your reaction to

1271
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:46,600
Speaker 1: the outcome is in your control, and everything else his

1272
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:50,439
Speaker 1: luck right, the outcome is not within your control, just

1273
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:53,040
Speaker 1: how you approach it. How you approach it, and then

1274
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:55,600
Speaker 1: how you respond to it. And so you know, I

1275
01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:59,600
Speaker 1: played poker for twenty years. There's games where I have

1276
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 1: literally millions of dollars playing poker at the highest stakes,

1277
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:06,440
Speaker 1: the highest levels. I've played them, and I have crushed them,

1278
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 1: and they have also crushed and destroyed me, and I

1279
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:12,599
Speaker 1: have had to learn to bounce back. I've also played

1280
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:16,720
Speaker 1: at the lowest stakes and it built incredible relationships and

1281
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:20,880
Speaker 1: bonds and learned things about people and my tolerance for

1282
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:24,519
Speaker 1: loss and risk. I would I would tell everybody in

1283
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: the world to learn to play that game, but view

1284
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 1: it as a small microcosm of your life um and

1285
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 1: the chance to learn about who you are as a person.

1286
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:38,000
Speaker 1: I love that metaphor. I think that's that's great. Before

1287
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 1: your people like the control room on fire and drag

1288
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:43,800
Speaker 1: you out of here kicking and screaming. Let's jump to

1289
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:47,280
Speaker 1: our favorite questions. We ask all of our guests, starting

1290
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:51,040
Speaker 1: with what's keeping you entertained during lockdown? What are you

1291
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 1: either streaming on Netflix or listening to in podcasts? Tell

1292
01:17:55,160 --> 01:18:00,360
Speaker 1: us what what's entertaining you? UM. I have been watching

1293
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:06,360
Speaker 1: an enormous amount of Dave Chappelle. Enormous. I think that

1294
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:09,040
Speaker 1: his stand up or the Dave Chappelle Show, we're both

1295
01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 1: mostly stand up. UM. I just want to say that

1296
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:19,639
Speaker 1: I think he is one of the most important figures

1297
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:24,040
Speaker 1: in society currently today as a social critic or a

1298
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:28,680
Speaker 1: comic or both. I think that he is also a philosopher.

1299
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:32,040
Speaker 1: I think that he is a social critic more than

1300
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:35,680
Speaker 1: he is a comedian. UM. And he's one of the

1301
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:41,640
Speaker 1: most important voices in America right now because he combines this.

1302
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 1: I really look up to him. He's a hero of mine. UM,

1303
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 1: this elegant combination of intellect, empathy, but then fearlessness and courage. UM.

1304
01:18:57,120 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 1: And he fights for ideas and free speech in a

1305
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:05,120
Speaker 1: way that I really deeply respect. UM. And So I've

1306
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:08,360
Speaker 1: been addicted to Dave shipp I mean addicted. I probably

1307
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:11,320
Speaker 1: I just watched now things over and over. I've run

1308
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 1: out of things. Have you spent much time with the

1309
01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:19,000
Speaker 1: original Dave Chappelle Show? I have, but I haven't. I've

1310
01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:21,439
Speaker 1: made an explicit decision to not go back to it

1311
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: because I've seen his evolution. Um, and I just get

1312
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:31,640
Speaker 1: so much joy and I find myself still unpacking. So

1313
01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:33,639
Speaker 1: because I I don't listen to him anymore to laugh,

1314
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:37,200
Speaker 1: I kind of listened to him to think, like, you know,

1315
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 1: he has a thing right now called Redemption Song, which

1316
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:42,720
Speaker 1: is a small little clip on on on YouTube, and

1317
01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:45,879
Speaker 1: uh what he talks about just at the very beginning

1318
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:48,160
Speaker 1: of this. I mean, the whole story is about him

1319
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:50,720
Speaker 1: going to Comedy Central to get back the rights to

1320
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:53,680
Speaker 1: the Chappelle Show. But the thing that he says up

1321
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:57,799
Speaker 1: at the front about cowards and heroes, I would encourage

1322
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 1: everybody to listen to and just think about how that

1323
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:04,360
Speaker 1: plays out in real life and social media. It's really

1324
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 1: powerful stuff, really good stuff. Let's talk a little bit

1325
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:13,519
Speaker 1: about mentors who who helped shape your career. Um, I

1326
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:16,640
Speaker 1: had a couple of people that I, uh so in

1327
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:18,599
Speaker 1: all my phases, I've been very lucky. When I worked

1328
01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:20,640
Speaker 1: at a bank, I had these two guys that I

1329
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:24,559
Speaker 1: worked for, Mike Fisher, Joel Prusky, um, who are just

1330
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,639
Speaker 1: incredible human beings to me. Well, Joel was a bit

1331
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:29,960
Speaker 1: of a jerk, but I'm just saying that to make

1332
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:35,680
Speaker 1: one wonderful people. Um. Then when I went to a all,

1333
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:38,400
Speaker 1: I had a person I worked for, Kevin Conroy, who

1334
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:46,360
Speaker 1: made me basically like all that my toolbox comes from him. Um,

1335
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:48,439
Speaker 1: you know I I and then I just picked up

1336
01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:51,879
Speaker 1: a lot along the way, UM, David Goldberg. Dave Goldberg,

1337
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:54,640
Speaker 1: who was you know, sort of my big brother who

1338
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 1: passed away. Um. And then honestly my father, you know,

1339
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:01,560
Speaker 1: again very complicated figure in my left, but in hindsight,

1340
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:05,240
Speaker 1: really gave me a tool kit, and I'm very thankful

1341
01:21:05,280 --> 01:21:07,960
Speaker 1: to him for that. Let's talk about books. What are

1342
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:13,520
Speaker 1: some of your favorites and what have you been reading recently? Um.

1343
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,200
Speaker 1: So I'm reading the Narrative of the life of Frederick

1344
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 1: Douglas who who na Fyoto biography somebody else is the

1345
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:23,200
Speaker 1: author of that. No, I think that's the title of

1346
01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:29,160
Speaker 1: the book by him. Uh and uh it's really a

1347
01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 1: pretty powerful moving book. UM. I've read a lot on

1348
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:37,240
Speaker 1: religion recently. Um, just because I've been very curious. I

1349
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 1: was raised the Buddhist, so I don't really understand Judaeo

1350
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:43,880
Speaker 1: christian I just think all you people are crazy, and

1351
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 1: so I've wanted to really understand it and unpack it.

1352
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 1: So I started with you know, pre Christianity, sort of

1353
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:55,559
Speaker 1: like paganism, I guess, just understanding it. And then I've

1354
01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 1: moved on to read about Christianity and Islam and Judaism,

1355
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:03,600
Speaker 1: and I found it all very kind of very interesting, um,

1356
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:08,200
Speaker 1: because it's about like society and you know, the formation

1357
01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:11,280
Speaker 1: of ideas and governance and and and so I think

1358
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot to be learned there. I I and

1359
01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:16,920
Speaker 1: then I just I've read this book. I've said many

1360
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:20,320
Speaker 1: times it's worth reading. It's called Americana, which is like

1361
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 1: a four year history of American capitalism boost Reney Boston

1362
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:29,000
Speaker 1: just the book book for the ages. It shows what

1363
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:32,760
Speaker 1: happens when government and the private sector to partner. And

1364
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:37,160
Speaker 1: I think it's a tremendous book, and wildly on the rats.

1365
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:38,960
Speaker 1: It's it's a it's a tour to force. That's a

1366
01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:42,479
Speaker 1: that's a top ten book, you know, and then some

1367
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:44,479
Speaker 1: blasts from the past. If you're interested, there's a great

1368
01:22:44,479 --> 01:22:48,200
Speaker 1: book called Fermat's Enigma by this guy Simon Singh, which

1369
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:50,960
Speaker 1: is talking about you know, Fermat has this theorem which

1370
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:52,800
Speaker 1: is extra the end plus by the unequal z to

1371
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 1: the end and it's this basically following the story of

1372
01:22:56,280 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 1: trying to prove it. Uh, fabulously written book, completely accessible

1373
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 1: to the general public, superb to the extent you think mathematical.

1374
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:06,880
Speaker 1: You know, the nonfiction can be well, the history of

1375
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:09,920
Speaker 1: trigonometry is is is right there? You know that? And

1376
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 1: then Liars Poker from Michael Lewis love that I really

1377
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 1: like I mythologize like Louis Ranieri and all these guys

1378
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 1: when I read it. Um, those are some books I think.

1379
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:23,640
Speaker 1: Lewis said that that book surprised him because it was

1380
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 1: supposed to be a cautionary tale, and instead he got

1381
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:30,200
Speaker 1: endless letters saying how do I get a gig on

1382
01:23:30,240 --> 01:23:32,679
Speaker 1: Wall Street? No, I had these pictures of Louis Ranieri.

1383
01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:34,519
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, I want to become this

1384
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 1: big dude with suspenders and a cigar. And let's talk

1385
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 1: about UM advice. What sort of advice would you give

1386
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:46,719
Speaker 1: to a recent college grad who was interested in either

1387
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:53,760
Speaker 1: technology investing, venture capital, UM or entrepreneurship. What advice would

1388
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:58,479
Speaker 1: you share with them. I think that there's a really terrible,

1389
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:01,839
Speaker 1: pernicious trick that's being played on you. So I'm speaking

1390
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:07,200
Speaker 1: to this person, Um, there is nothing wrong with putting

1391
01:24:07,200 --> 01:24:10,719
Speaker 1: in the hours and doing your time and summer along

1392
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:14,519
Speaker 1: the way. We were told and you. We told you

1393
01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:20,719
Speaker 1: that life is a democracy. It's not. It's an autocracy.

1394
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:23,800
Speaker 1: And you need to learn that at some point your

1395
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:28,360
Speaker 1: big leaps will come from the benefit of learning from others.

1396
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:33,240
Speaker 1: And I think that I see so many young people

1397
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:39,880
Speaker 1: quit too soon, leave things when things get hard. They

1398
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:43,840
Speaker 1: go after labels, just the labels have changed to be

1399
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:46,360
Speaker 1: a founder means something, and I think it means nothing.

1400
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:49,840
Speaker 1: I was an employee until my early thirties, and I

1401
01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:53,760
Speaker 1: learned a ton. So I would just tell you, chill out,

1402
01:24:54,240 --> 01:24:57,240
Speaker 1: take a deep breath, get a decent job, work in

1403
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:00,439
Speaker 1: an interesting place, and then grind and put in the hours.

1404
01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:02,479
Speaker 1: Prove you can be there for three or four years

1405
01:25:02,520 --> 01:25:05,240
Speaker 1: before you go off. You can't quit every six months

1406
01:25:05,240 --> 01:25:06,760
Speaker 1: to a year. That's not how you build a career.

1407
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:10,240
Speaker 1: It's not how you learn anything. M quite quite interesting.

1408
01:25:11,040 --> 01:25:13,800
Speaker 1: And and our final question is a little bit philosophical

1409
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:17,439
Speaker 1: What do you know about the world of technology and

1410
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 1: and venture investing in startups today that you wish you

1411
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:24,720
Speaker 1: knew years ago when you were really just getting your

1412
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:36,479
Speaker 1: feet wet in this space. I wish I knew well, gosh,

1413
01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:41,880
Speaker 1: I really didn't. I don't. I'm gonna I'm gonna say

1414
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:46,840
Speaker 1: something different, which is, I have had major phases of

1415
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,479
Speaker 1: ignorance in my life, and I'm really thankful for all

1416
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 1: of them because I've made enough mistakes to learn from them,

1417
01:25:56,000 --> 01:26:00,360
Speaker 1: to learn that mistakes don't matter. And so if I

1418
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:04,200
Speaker 1: had been robbed of those mistakes, I'd probably be exceedingly

1419
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:10,000
Speaker 1: arrogant and a complete douche right now. So I'll take

1420
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:14,000
Speaker 1: the fact that says it's all been pretty good man, Like, um,

1421
01:26:14,040 --> 01:26:17,320
Speaker 1: you know, I've had some real blow ups. It's okay,

1422
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:19,519
Speaker 1: you know, you live to fight another day. I'm in

1423
01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:22,320
Speaker 1: the arena, you know what I mean. You're covered in

1424
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:28,160
Speaker 1: dust coming and fighting, and anybody that does that as

1425
01:26:28,200 --> 01:26:32,080
Speaker 1: a hero, You're all heroes. Love it. Chama, Thank you

1426
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:34,160
Speaker 1: so much for being so generous with your time. This

1427
01:26:34,320 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 1: was really quite fascinating and I'm going to tell you

1428
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:42,360
Speaker 1: my best conversations are where I don't bother with most

1429
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 1: of the questions. You um really gave the listeners something

1430
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:50,720
Speaker 1: to think about, and UH, thank you so much. I

1431
01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:53,920
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Thank you, Thank you cham for being

1432
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:56,760
Speaker 1: so generous with your time. We have been speaking with

1433
01:26:56,840 --> 01:27:02,640
Speaker 1: Chamath Polly Hapataya, founder of Social Capital uh a O

1434
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:07,400
Speaker 1: L Facebook, Slack, just really filled with so much insight

1435
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:13,080
Speaker 1: into technology venture and the change that is taking place

1436
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:17,720
Speaker 1: within capitalism. If you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure

1437
01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:20,880
Speaker 1: and check out any of our previous three hundred and

1438
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:24,479
Speaker 1: any seven conversations we've had before. You can find those

1439
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:29,080
Speaker 1: at iTunes or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast fixed.

1440
01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:32,800
Speaker 1: We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us

1441
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:36,360
Speaker 1: at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. You can

1442
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:39,599
Speaker 1: sign up from my daily reading list at Rid Halts

1443
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:42,679
Speaker 1: dot com. Follow me on Twitter at Rid Halts. Check

1444
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:46,040
Speaker 1: out my weekly column at Bloomberg dot com slash opinion.

1445
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:48,600
Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I did not thank the

1446
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:52,120
Speaker 1: Crack team that helps us put these conversations together each week.

1447
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:55,720
Speaker 1: Michael Batnick is my head of research, Mohammed is my

1448
01:27:55,800 --> 01:28:00,280
Speaker 1: audio engineer. Paris Wold is our producer Atika val Braun

1449
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:05,040
Speaker 1: is our project manager. I'm Barry Hults. You've been listening

1450
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 1: to Master's in Business on Bloomberg Radio