Speaker 1: Welcome new Trillions. I'm Joel Webber and.
Speaker 2: I'm Eric Belchunas Eric, we try and do the global
Speaker 2: story of ETFs on Trillions.
Speaker 1: A lot of the times we're pretty US centric on that.
Speaker 1: I know we've done India recently. And then there is
Speaker 1: this headline that moved from Bloomberg News recently about Kathy
Speaker 1: Wood acquiring Rise ETF and making a play for Europe,
Speaker 1: and Europe is actually like a quiet ETF market and
Speaker 1: that made me want to talk to you more about
Speaker 1: that and dedicate this episode to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've been to Europe a couple of
Speaker 2: times as an ETF analyst and visiting clients there, and
Speaker 2: it's a really different market. We cover it on my team,
Speaker 2: and like I said, some of the stuff over there
Speaker 2: is a little different than the US and it's interesting.
Speaker 2: But many of the issuers like black Rock and Vanguard
Speaker 2: and Invesco and JP Morgan are all trying to sell
Speaker 2: their stuff over there. And it's interesting with ARC right
Speaker 2: because now you've got to thematic issue, we're actually moving
Speaker 2: over there. Kathy Wood was interviewed and said that she
Speaker 2: found that twenty five percent of the downloads from her
Speaker 2: research were in Europe, and that was what sparked her
Speaker 2: to move over there, and so it's an interesting time
Speaker 2: to cover that area. They've got about one point five
Speaker 2: trillion dollars in assets over there, so it's, you know,
Speaker 2: a fraction of the US, but it's growing, I believe,
Speaker 2: on a percentage basis, slightly faster than the US. And
Speaker 2: so also in Europe you can charge higher fees and
Speaker 2: so a lot of the issues here are getting vanguarded
Speaker 2: to death and so over in Europe, even though Vanguard exists,
Speaker 2: it's not quite as intense in the cost of obsession.
Speaker 2: So from a revenue point of view, I could totally
Speaker 2: see the drive to go over there. But there's all
Speaker 2: kinds of like acronyms over there, like usets and mifids
Speaker 2: and regulations, and I think it's interesting to get into
Speaker 2: the differences between that continent and US, and you know,
Speaker 2: what works over there and what doesn't.
Speaker 1: And help us navigate what it all looks like. Hector McNeil,
Speaker 1: who's the co CEO, owner and founder of han ATF,
Speaker 1: this time on Trillions.
Speaker 3: What's going on in Europe?
Speaker 1: Hector, welcome to Trillions.
Speaker 4: Hey guys, how are you doing good?
Speaker 1: Thanks? Hey, so Eric thinks you're like mister Europe for ETFs,
Speaker 1: and he's like kind of like he thinks of himself
Speaker 1: as like mister America. So how does mister Europe feel
Speaker 1: about mister America.
Speaker 4: Well, there you go.
Speaker 3: It sounds like a couple of superheroes meeting each other,
Speaker 3: doesn't it.
Speaker 5: But again, people saw us, they know that was that
Speaker 5: was far away from the truth. But no, certainly, I
Speaker 5: think when you say things like that, it just means
Speaker 5: I'm old and I've been around for a long time.
Speaker 5: But you know, certainly I've been here, and you know,
Speaker 5: I say, I think you would say I've seen it,
Speaker 5: done it, pinched it, spent it for sure, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: Well let me let me say why I thought that
Speaker 2: is that Hector isn't just an ETF issuer. He's a
Speaker 2: white label issuer. So if you're in Europe or even
Speaker 2: in US, and you want to launch an ETF in Europe,
Speaker 2: you may go to him just to get the lay
Speaker 2: of the land. So he has all the answers and
Speaker 2: that's what he's used to doing. And so that is
Speaker 2: an interesting per And so before we get into your
Speaker 2: perch there, tell us a little bit of how you
Speaker 2: got there. What was your road to become a white
Speaker 2: label issure.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty interesting really.
Speaker 5: I've been involved in ETF pretty much in the start
Speaker 5: late nineties in Europe, and I first got involved by
Speaker 5: setting up Saskuhanas ETF business in Europe. So I was
Speaker 5: there nearly just on the five years, and then I
Speaker 5: left there and went to be one of the founders
Speaker 5: and owners of ETF Securities. So I was course CEO
Speaker 5: there and co founder with my buddy now Nick and
Speaker 5: handstands for Hector and Nick. So while we were at
Speaker 5: ETFs US, we invented gold ETFs create the first gold
Speaker 5: ECHF in the world in Australia, brought it to London.
Speaker 5: Then a couple of years later we helped the Go
Speaker 5: Council create the GLD. So sometimes Europe is ahead, you
Speaker 5: know in the US, and get there before them, and
Speaker 5: then we were. We created a business called Boost Nick
Speaker 5: and I which was a short leverage provider similar to
Speaker 5: Direction pro Shares that ultimately got bought out by Wisdom Tree,
Speaker 5: which we then set up Wisdom Trees business in Europe.
Speaker 5: Again we were core CEOs, co founders. We co owned
Speaker 5: Wizd'try Europe with wisdon try and then they bought us out.
Speaker 5: So hands afourth ETF business, fourth and master have to say,
Speaker 5: And in that time we've issued just allver six hundred
Speaker 5: and fifty ETFs and ETPs, which I think equates about
Speaker 5: eight percent of every ETF on the planet.
Speaker 3: So not by AUM, unfortunately, but by by a number
Speaker 3: of products.
Speaker 4: So I think we do.
Speaker 3: We think that we know our stuff pretty well.
Speaker 1: So perception though is that Europe is always behind in
Speaker 1: in the ETF market. How true is that perception? And
Speaker 1: and how big is an opportunity when you see somebody
Speaker 1: like Kathy would make an acquisition like this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think it's it's fair.
Speaker 5: I mean, I mean I often say, you know, with
Speaker 5: three to five years behind, but on a very similar,
Speaker 5: if not faster trajectory. You know, Europe's thirty countries, its
Speaker 5: populations double the size of the US, similar wealth demographic,
Speaker 5: you know, and we're just really a little behind to
Speaker 5: the point where actually when we decided to set up
Speaker 5: Handy TF four or five years ago, the AUM in
Speaker 5: the in Europe is where the where the today is
Speaker 5: where the in the US was at the time, right,
Speaker 5: So that sort of almost proves that we are four
Speaker 5: or five years behind. I mean, as I say, there
Speaker 5: is some innovation in Europe that's a little bit ahead
Speaker 5: of the US.
Speaker 3: You know, we have spot crypto products already in Europe.
Speaker 5: It does make us laugh when you guys say the
Speaker 5: world doesn't have a spot bitcoin product, and we think, well,
Speaker 5: we've had that for a few years now, you know,
Speaker 5: and and then esg as well, you know, we think
Speaker 5: we're ahead of you guys to a certain extent.
Speaker 3: On that a lot of things you guys are litigating
Speaker 3: and fighting about.
Speaker 5: You know, we've decided on and moved on now really
Speaker 5: and it's become a just part of the part of
Speaker 5: the mix. I think the Kathy Wood scenario is really
Speaker 5: really interesting. She really is going to stir it all
Speaker 5: up in Europe. I mean, you're probably well aware that
Speaker 5: the Europe is pretty much an active market, probably bigger
Speaker 5: from an active basis than the US.
Speaker 3: You know, when you look at the full you know, suite.
Speaker 5: Of mutual funds and such light. But it hasn't really
Speaker 5: hit the tape yet. On the ETF world, We've got
Speaker 5: some on the fixed income side that Pincord did several
Speaker 5: years ago, but it's not really being a thing on
Speaker 5: the equity side.
Speaker 3: But I do believe.
Speaker 5: She's going to shake everything up with that because I
Speaker 5: think she's the first sort of superstar, you know, active
Speaker 5: manager in the ETF space.
Speaker 3: You know, both in the US and she will be
Speaker 3: in in Europe.
Speaker 5: The retail guys know her name as well, and you know,
Speaker 5: with the with the embeddedness of that retail demand, I
Speaker 5: think she's going to really really shake it up. So
Speaker 5: I'm really quite excited. I think it'll see a lot
Speaker 5: of people come to the table. And actually, to be fair,
Speaker 5: we've probably had about, you know, over twenty inquiries. You
Speaker 5: know that people have been talking to post the announcement
Speaker 5: with Rice, So we're pretty excited about it, to be honest.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, it's interesting back to sort of the Europe being behind.
Speaker 2: So I did deep research on a recent book called
Speaker 2: the Bogle Effect, which was interested seameless Plug. But in
Speaker 2: that book, I looked at the spread of sort of
Speaker 2: ETFs and passive and low cost across the world, and
Speaker 2: it spreads in some places versus others. I kind of
Speaker 2: concluded that you kind of need two things for ETFs
Speaker 2: at least, you know, the traditional beta type ETFs to spread,
Speaker 2: you need advisors that are fiduciary and get paid as
Speaker 2: a percentage of assets versus a kickback from the mutual fund.
Speaker 2: And you need a population that doesn't think its government
Speaker 2: is going to cover it for retirement. And so in
Speaker 2: America we have both in spades. It's big time fee
Speaker 2: based advisors. They're seventy five percent of the ETF owners really,
Speaker 2: and of course everybody in America doesn't think they're going
Speaker 2: to get so secured or anything, so they're a little
Speaker 2: more savvy so that thus they sort of shop better
Speaker 2: for their financial situation and investments. Can you take that
Speaker 2: and sort of give me the take what it's like
Speaker 2: in Europe on those two fronts.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think you know what you've got to
Speaker 5: realize with Europe is it's you know, thirty plus countries,
Speaker 5: you know, with different currencies, cultures, exchanges, sellment systems, the whole,
Speaker 5: the whole shooting match, right, So you've got varying degrees
Speaker 5: of off of good climates for what you've just talked about,
Speaker 5: you know, from you know quite socialist, uh, you know,
Speaker 5: countries with strong social infrastructure.
Speaker 3: You know, through to a little bit more entrepreneur a
Speaker 3: little bit more capitalist.
Speaker 5: But I think where you do see ETF strongest in
Speaker 5: Europe pretty much is I would say, the u UK, Germany,
Speaker 5: you know, Italy, with the second tier being Switzerland, France.
Speaker 5: But equally, you know, you are seeing some pretty interesting
Speaker 5: you know, moves in the Nordics and ben Lux, but
Speaker 5: there are varying degrees of penetration. I think one interesting
Speaker 5: thing in is happening in Germany at the moment, which
Speaker 5: is akin to what you're talking about. There's been a
Speaker 5: massive growth of saving plans, savings plans with the big
Speaker 5: robo advisors and the big banks online brokerage platforms, and
Speaker 5: these are essentially once a month investments and essentially they're
Speaker 5: almost being completely dominated by ETF now, you know. And
Speaker 5: they're very tax advantageous as well. So that's a bit
Speaker 5: of a revolution that didn't exist before that is actually
Speaker 5: making people think long and hard, both with the ETF wrapper.
Speaker 3: And also the model portfolios that that back that up.
Speaker 3: I mean, we did something really interesting as well, which
Speaker 3: I just like to chuck in there that you know,
Speaker 3: just shows the stage of it that we we we we.
Speaker 5: Crossed listed the first gold product into Poland two weeks
Speaker 5: ago end of end of August, and I think we're
Speaker 5: the eleventh product there of which we're the only foreign
Speaker 5: issue of.
Speaker 3: Off off of gold products. You know, Poland's forty million people.
Speaker 5: You know, it's a bit as big as Canada, right,
Speaker 5: you know, so you know that that that's that's an
Speaker 5: example of a market. This in very early days, but
Speaker 5: you can see over time it will get adopted and
Speaker 5: will get will get part of it. To the point
Speaker 5: where I was saying, you've got, you know, pretty mature
Speaker 5: markets like like Germany and and and the UK.
Speaker 3: That's why I think you really need somebody who knows
Speaker 3: what's going on the ground.
Speaker 5: I would say that you know, when US and suit
Speaker 5: has come to Europe, they don't know what they don't know,
Speaker 5: and I think it often means that they they took
Speaker 5: two to three years to figure out what they should
Speaker 5: have got right in the first place, but got But
Speaker 5: it's pretty hard to model that and pretty hard to
Speaker 5: tell people that.
Speaker 1: So if you said you're four to five years behind,
Speaker 1: I'm curious though, because you've also hinted that there are
Speaker 1: things like crypto that you're ahead on. Are there things
Speaker 1: that the US, the US market and American issuers might
Speaker 1: be able to learn more from Europe.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I think there's always things people can learn from each other, right,
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, there's there's a lot of smart people,
Speaker 5: you know, in both places. And you know, I just
Speaker 5: think that ultimately, you know, you had a great tax advantage,
Speaker 5: which you know, speeded up the adoption. I mean I
Speaker 5: always say, you know, eachfs are just a rapper, you know,
Speaker 5: they're not They're not an asset class or a you know,
Speaker 5: or a certain type of investment, but just a way
Speaker 5: to do a delivery mechanism to give a payout to clients.
Speaker 5: And it just makes you know, and it's not even
Speaker 5: new technology, you know.
Speaker 3: I always use the analogy.
Speaker 5: It's it's like mobile funds and landlines when you describe
Speaker 5: mutual funds versus ETFs. You know, but ultimately the technology
Speaker 5: will win the day. And I think that's that's essentially
Speaker 5: what we're seeing. And you know, and I do I
Speaker 5: do think you know where you know, we do have
Speaker 5: areas we are I.
Speaker 3: Think ahead, you know, and a lot of it's.
Speaker 5: Regulatory regulatory environment, you know, you know, the crypto side.
Speaker 5: You know, in Germany in particular, you know, they have
Speaker 5: you know, very very benign crypto regulations. I mean, they
Speaker 5: made crypto official financial instuments in twenty twenty.
Speaker 4: Then I think another.
Speaker 5: Side that I think, you know, the US can learn
Speaker 5: quite heavily from the Europe is the use of share classes.
Speaker 5: You know, we've used share classes pretty much since day
Speaker 5: one in Europe. I mean obviously a Vanguard and its
Speaker 5: patent which prevented that, but most of ETFs in Europe
Speaker 5: WI have multiple share classes, whether it's accumulating, distributing, whether
Speaker 5: it's currency hedged, you know, whether it's you know, lower fees.
Speaker 5: I mean you even have an unlisted share class ability
Speaker 5: in Europe now where you can basically blend the mutual
Speaker 5: fund with ETF, you know, and you can have basically
Speaker 5: an invisible share class that nobody says unless it's sull
Speaker 5: to them. So but equally, I think where you guys,
Speaker 5: you know, really knock spots of US is really on
Speaker 5: the retail side. I think the retail really underpins the
Speaker 5: eatif stories easier success points, and I think the barriers
Speaker 5: to entry is so significantly less in the US and
Speaker 5: they are in Europe. And hence why I think white
Speaker 5: labels are really important because you know building, you know,
Speaker 5: the infrastructure in Europe to get across thirty countries, you know,
Speaker 5: probably is a two to three year journey five to
Speaker 5: ten million dollars, and that's before you've even started making
Speaker 5: any money, right.
Speaker 3: So it's a big, big decision.
Speaker 5: And then you've got to go against the beer moth
Speaker 5: like you know, Vanguard and A Monday and black Rock,
Speaker 5: you know. So so it's a big decision for a
Speaker 5: lot of people, but it's what ultimately everyone's going to
Speaker 5: have to take.
Speaker 2: Talking a little more about that retail angle, I remember
Speaker 2: going over there again, maybe been in Europe three times
Speaker 2: in the past like twelve years, and what you'll hear is, Oh,
Speaker 2: it's really institutional over here, not a ton of retail.
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming that you put financial advisors in retail
Speaker 2: else since they're managing retail money versus institutions would be
Speaker 2: like endowments, pensions, hedge funds, traders. When we look at
Speaker 2: that retail advisor market, what do you think is going
Speaker 2: to be key to penetrating it? Is it the plumbing
Speaker 2: or is it more of the psychology of the investor there.
Speaker 4: I think it's a mixture mixture of everything. Really.
Speaker 5: I think it's the I think it's the broader adoption
Speaker 5: of the products. It's you know, the product's being more
Speaker 5: interesting than just being you know, five business points chreaper
Speaker 5: than the last guys, right, you know, And that's where
Speaker 5: I think thematics make a lot of a lot of sense.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, just an example, we you know,
Speaker 5: we we set up spots uranium miners that they have
Speaker 5: in the US, you are, and we've got the same
Speaker 5: product now in Europe. You know, listen over over over
Speaker 5: a year ago. It's just popped one hundred and fifty million,
Speaker 5: you know, And and that's been largely retail driven because
Speaker 5: it's a good story, you know, people looking for that exposure,
Speaker 5: the press picking up, the you know, the trade magazines.
Speaker 4: All those types of things.
Speaker 5: But I think the sweet spot currently is pretty much
Speaker 5: in the sort of wealth management, private banking space.
Speaker 3: And I think the sort of pure retail angle is
Speaker 3: picking up.
Speaker 5: And I think largely because we're starting to get our
Speaker 5: sort of challenger brokerage platforms now similar to your Robin Hood.
Speaker 3: You know, we've got free trade, two on two trading.
Speaker 5: All these guys are offering free trading, fractional trading, you know,
Speaker 5: things that weren't available until the last few years and
Speaker 5: the technology wasn't there to do it, you know, So
Speaker 5: I think that's been really important. I sort of expect
Speaker 5: the next stage that will be, you know, mass adoption
Speaker 5: of model portfolios as well. So you know, I think
Speaker 5: again that's just as catching up to you guys, I
Speaker 5: think from that perspective. But it's that sort of ecosystem,
Speaker 5: as you say, that's really important.
Speaker 1: You're totally describing something that seems like it's exactly four
Speaker 1: to five years old.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: One element that's also kind of interesting to me though,
Speaker 1: is Eric Paulled ETF market share for Europe, and it's
Speaker 1: it's fascinating how similar the names are, right, You've got
Speaker 1: I Shares at number one, you got Vanguard at number four,
Speaker 1: you got Spider at number six. But then there's like
Speaker 1: other names in here, and I'm just wondering from a
Speaker 1: from a you know, competitive standpoint. You had mentioned a
Speaker 1: MOUNDI before their number two, X Tracers at number three,
Speaker 1: Ubs at number five, so there is a different a
Speaker 1: difference here, I guess too, and just the number and
Speaker 1: types of players.
Speaker 4: So what is that?
Speaker 1: How's that unfolding? And how could this end up being
Speaker 1: a different sort of competition than the exact same players
Speaker 1: that are in the US.
Speaker 5: I think, if we're brutally honest, I think the sort
Speaker 5: of bigger players have won the passive space, you know,
Speaker 5: the cheap passive space. I don't think that's up for
Speaker 5: grabs anymore, you know, So I think they sort of
Speaker 5: cheap SMP fives. I mean, you know, we got this
Speaker 5: ridiculous scenario where there's fifty euros eurostocks, fifty products in Europe.
Speaker 5: You know, there's forty s and P five hundred products
Speaker 5: and that's largely driven by you know, every bank, and
Speaker 5: you know major asset manager who's got a wealth management
Speaker 5: business needs those core products to you know, to be
Speaker 5: competitive and.
Speaker 3: To have that offering.
Speaker 5: And also you're talking about, as I mentioned before, thirty
Speaker 5: of country. So you know, somebody might be strong in Switzerland's,
Speaker 5: somebody might be strong in Germany, whatever it is. But
Speaker 5: obviously you've got those common players that you know, are
Speaker 5: global players who will always be hoovering up you know,
Speaker 5: that market share, around the costs, the scale, those types
Speaker 5: of arguments. So I think, so I think this this
Speaker 5: sort of next movement into the you know et F
Speaker 5: two point zero or three point zero, whether it's you know, sematics,
Speaker 5: whether it's active, whether it's you know, more IP driven
Speaker 5: good idea.
Speaker 3: Products, you know.
Speaker 5: I mean, we we did a product you guys don't
Speaker 5: have in the US yet, which I think is a
Speaker 5: real good, good example of something you know, quite quite.
Speaker 3: Niche, but but pretty cool. You know.
Speaker 5: We created a physically backed carbon credit product.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 5: You know, we did the first futures back carbon product
Speaker 5: back in two thousand and seven at EATF Securities that's
Speaker 5: now owned by Wisdom Try that was backed by Shell,
Speaker 5: you know. But actually we did.
Speaker 3: Something three years ago with the company called spark Change
Speaker 3: Tickets c or.
Speaker 5: Two where we actually owned the euas directly with the
Speaker 5: European Union, you know. So we were I think one
Speaker 5: of the first financial companies that were allowed to do that,
Speaker 5: you know, so rather than be you know, a non
Speaker 5: part of the physical story, because the finite supply there's
Speaker 5: a bit like the bitcoin and gold story.
Speaker 3: You know, there's a finite supply off carbon credits.
Speaker 5: You know, you as a personal investment now can own
Speaker 5: those you and effectively affect the demand.
Speaker 3: Supply side of that of that asset class.
Speaker 5: So so I think that's where you can sort of
Speaker 5: muscle in and get a bit of air time, you know,
Speaker 5: next to these huge giants who otherwise, you know, create
Speaker 5: a vacuum and hoover up all the all the space,
Speaker 5: you know, and that's.
Speaker 3: Where you've got to do.
Speaker 5: You've got to be you've got to be innovative, and
Speaker 5: you've got to just make sure that you you've got
Speaker 5: strong en availables to make sure you heard in that
Speaker 5: in that sort of scenario.
Speaker 2: It's funny. So we have in the US, we have
Speaker 2: the three c's for ETF success, cheap, creative or cabernet.
Speaker 2: You're talking about the creative. You've got to do something
Speaker 2: very different than beta, something innovative that can work. You
Speaker 2: can innovate your way to assets. The cabernet is the
Speaker 2: old school. Let me whine and die in the advisors
Speaker 2: and brokers, hook them up, kiss their butt, give them
Speaker 2: golf balls, and there is a lane for that. It's shrinking,
Speaker 2: but it still exists here. But I think I wanted to,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of jump on that a little bit
Speaker 2: with I have seen a bifurcation in the US. Forming
Speaker 2: it used to be you'd buy like the fidelity fund
Speaker 2: for your core retirement. But over the years people replace
Speaker 2: that with as you said, cheap beta. But then they
Speaker 2: don't want to just have three funds that are sort
Speaker 2: of vanilla and boring. They want to add on top
Speaker 2: of that, so they look for things that are very different.
Speaker 2: I call it hot sauce. Carbon credits would be, that
Speaker 2: arc would be that, thematic ets would be that gold, crypto.
Speaker 2: All that stuff I think has a viable lane. It's
Speaker 2: not as big as the core of the portfolio, but
Speaker 2: ten to fifteen percent of a lot of portfolios. So
Speaker 2: therefore the client has a low cost based and then
Speaker 2: adds on sort of to customize and scratch their fomo
Speaker 2: witch and in that way they can participate and speculate.
Speaker 2: Like with uranium, that's a story they can participate in.
Speaker 2: So they're being active, but their portfolio is filled with
Speaker 2: things that are either cheap or shiny. Do you see
Speaker 2: that happening in Europe over the years, and that sort
Speaker 2: of old school mutual fund that's close to the index
Speaker 2: but charges one hundred basis points kind of goes extinct.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's exactly what is happening. You know,
Speaker 5: I have to say I don't think is happening quick enough,
Speaker 5: you know, I do think the governments and regulators should
Speaker 5: be pushing that down down the road. We all see
Speaker 5: those academic studies that show the degradation on long term portfolios.
Speaker 3: Due to the fees, right, So so if you're not.
Speaker 5: Adding any IP or any added value, you know, you know,
Speaker 5: you should go off as cheap as possible, as much
Speaker 5: scale as possible. So we're certainly seeing that where people
Speaker 5: are waking up to the fact that, you know, the
Speaker 5: classic gold index trackers at one percent just make no
Speaker 5: sense to anybody. And I do think that, you know
Speaker 5: what I always felt about, you know, products with good.
Speaker 4: IP and stuff that investors get their head around.
Speaker 5: There are all many CIOs or investment managers you know,
Speaker 5: who want to feel that they've done their homework and
Speaker 5: got good ideas, and you know, as you say, you know,
Speaker 5: have a part of their portfolio that is a little bit,
Speaker 5: a little bit more out there, a bit more bit
Speaker 5: more spicy. As you say that, you know, is a
Speaker 5: bit more you know, effectively in active decision that they're
Speaker 5: putting into their portfolios. And you know, obviously, you know,
Speaker 5: I've always been a big believer in PR for ETF selling,
Speaker 5: you know, and I think you can really reach retail
Speaker 5: pretty well and get that sort of point across where
Speaker 5: you do have a little bit of a differentiator, you know,
Speaker 5: through PR. And we have a great example of that
Speaker 5: with the raw mint gold product that we have. You know,
Speaker 5: we use recycled gold within that, you know, in recycled
Speaker 5: golds ninety five percent less carbon intensive than.
Speaker 3: The mind gold is the only one in the world
Speaker 3: that does that.
Speaker 5: Plus we allow retail to have physical delivery of bars
Speaker 5: and coins if they want to swap their ETF for
Speaker 5: sovereigns and Britannias, you know, with the.
Speaker 3: Queen or the King's head on it, as I should say.
Speaker 5: Now, so you know that that resonates with people, and
Speaker 5: well that's cool is we actually put the price up
Speaker 5: on that product from twenty two to twenty five basis
Speaker 5: points and now the six hundred products have on In
Speaker 5: my career, I've never put the price of an et
Speaker 5: F up ever, So so I think that that that's
Speaker 5: a real good measure of.
Speaker 3: You know, where you can you can get your elbows
Speaker 3: out and get.
Speaker 5: Some space and you know, show these guys you can
Speaker 5: add value to the space and if you can get
Speaker 5: that message out through PR and you know, on the
Speaker 5: on the on the wires or on the magazines, et cetera.
Speaker 3: And don't think it makes a massive difference, all.
Speaker 1: Right, Hector. Last question is when we like to end
Speaker 1: with what is your favorite et F ticker other than
Speaker 1: any that you're affiliated with.
Speaker 5: That's that's awful because we've we've I think we've got
Speaker 5: the best forever Yoda, which.
Speaker 4: Is you have Yoda.
Speaker 2: I saw that there's another one over in Europe, Jedi.
Speaker 2: They've got Jedi's.
Speaker 3: Stalled after us. After rules we've got, we've got Yoda.
Speaker 5: And then for our we've just done a defense et
Speaker 5: F which we've got NATO, which I really like NATO as.
Speaker 3: Well, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 5: But but I think I actually if I can go
Speaker 5: back to one that's not mine currently, which is with Elgin.
Speaker 5: But I did actually trade in the first place, which
Speaker 5: was two times leverage foot see, which is look to
Speaker 5: l u K two, and then the two times shorts
Speaker 5: footee was suck to, which I think look to and
Speaker 5: stuck to is pretty cool.
Speaker 3: There they're good sickens.
Speaker 1: I like this, all right, Hector Vino, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining us on Trillions.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, guys appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. You can
Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
Speaker 1: or wherever else.
Speaker 3: You'd like to listen.
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter. I'm
Speaker 1: at Joel Webbers Show, He's at Eric Boltuna's. This episode
Speaker 1: of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson.
Speaker 3: Bye