WEBVTT - What's Going on in Europe? 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.240 Welcome new Trillions. I'm Joel Webber and. 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:14.080 I'm Eric Belchunas Eric, we try and do the global 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.120 story of ETFs on Trillions. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:18.959 A lot of the times we're pretty US centric on that. 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:20.959 I know we've done India recently. And then there is 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.720 this headline that moved from Bloomberg News recently about Kathy 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.680 Wood acquiring Rise ETF and making a play for Europe, 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.640 and Europe is actually like a quiet ETF market and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:34.600 that made me want to talk to you more about 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:36.760 that and dedicate this episode to it. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:38.720 Yeah, you know, I've been to Europe a couple of 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:42.000 times as an ETF analyst and visiting clients there, and 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.600 it's a really different market. We cover it on my team, 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:47.760 and like I said, some of the stuff over there 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:49.760 is a little different than the US and it's interesting. 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:52.440 But many of the issuers like black Rock and Vanguard 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.240 and Invesco and JP Morgan are all trying to sell 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.000 their stuff over there. And it's interesting with ARC right 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:01.760 because now you've got to thematic issue, we're actually moving 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.760 over there. Kathy Wood was interviewed and said that she 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.920 found that twenty five percent of the downloads from her 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.560 research were in Europe, and that was what sparked her 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.640 to move over there, and so it's an interesting time 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:14.960 to cover that area. They've got about one point five 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.640 trillion dollars in assets over there, so it's, you know, 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.480 a fraction of the US, but it's growing, I believe, 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.480 on a percentage basis, slightly faster than the US. And 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.720 so also in Europe you can charge higher fees and 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:29.520 so a lot of the issues here are getting vanguarded 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.199 to death and so over in Europe, even though Vanguard exists, 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.480 it's not quite as intense in the cost of obsession. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.040 So from a revenue point of view, I could totally 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.280 see the drive to go over there. But there's all 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.560 kinds of like acronyms over there, like usets and mifids 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.080 and regulations, and I think it's interesting to get into 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.600 the differences between that continent and US, and you know, 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.120 what works over there and what doesn't. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.680 And help us navigate what it all looks like. Hector McNeil, 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.440 who's the co CEO, owner and founder of han ATF, 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:03.480 this time on Trillions. 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:04.800 What's going on in Europe? 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:08.920 Hector, welcome to Trillions. 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:10.480 Hey guys, how are you doing good? 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:15.839 Thanks? Hey, so Eric thinks you're like mister Europe for ETFs, 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:17.760 and he's like kind of like he thinks of himself 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.679 as like mister America. So how does mister Europe feel 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:21.600 about mister America. 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:22.840 Well, there you go. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.200 It sounds like a couple of superheroes meeting each other, 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:25.560 doesn't it. 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:27.840 But again, people saw us, they know that was that 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.560 was far away from the truth. But no, certainly, I 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:32.280 think when you say things like that, it just means 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:34.160 I'm old and I've been around for a long time. 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.760 But you know, certainly I've been here, and you know, 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.120 I say, I think you would say I've seen it, 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:42.720 done it, pinched it, spent it for sure, that's for sure. 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.200 Well let me let me say why I thought that 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.120 is that Hector isn't just an ETF issuer. He's a 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.000 white label issuer. So if you're in Europe or even 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.120 in US, and you want to launch an ETF in Europe, 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:54.560 you may go to him just to get the lay 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:57.240 of the land. So he has all the answers and 0:02:57.280 --> 0:02:59.239 that's what he's used to doing. And so that is 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.600 an interesting per And so before we get into your 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.480 perch there, tell us a little bit of how you 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.519 got there. What was your road to become a white 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:08.160 label issure. 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:10.839 Yeah, it's pretty interesting really. 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.880 I've been involved in ETF pretty much in the start 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.600 late nineties in Europe, and I first got involved by 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.799 setting up Saskuhanas ETF business in Europe. So I was 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:21.840 there nearly just on the five years, and then I 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:23.480 left there and went to be one of the founders 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.120 and owners of ETF Securities. So I was course CEO 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.800 there and co founder with my buddy now Nick and 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.480 handstands for Hector and Nick. So while we were at 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.360 ETFs US, we invented gold ETFs create the first gold 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.760 ECHF in the world in Australia, brought it to London. 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.360 Then a couple of years later we helped the Go 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.440 Council create the GLD. So sometimes Europe is ahead, you 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.640 know in the US, and get there before them, and 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.680 then we were. We created a business called Boost Nick 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:52.840 and I which was a short leverage provider similar to 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:57.080 Direction pro Shares that ultimately got bought out by Wisdom Tree, 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.840 which we then set up Wisdom Trees business in Europe. 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.920 Again we were core CEOs, co founders. We co owned 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.360 Wizd'try Europe with wisdon try and then they bought us out. 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.640 So hands afourth ETF business, fourth and master have to say, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.320 And in that time we've issued just allver six hundred 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.680 and fifty ETFs and ETPs, which I think equates about 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:17.599 eight percent of every ETF on the planet. 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.760 So not by AUM, unfortunately, but by by a number 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:21.240 of products. 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:22.360 So I think we do. 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:24.160 We think that we know our stuff pretty well. 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:30.560 So perception though is that Europe is always behind in 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.920 in the ETF market. How true is that perception? And 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:35.960 and how big is an opportunity when you see somebody 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:37.800 like Kathy would make an acquisition like this. 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:40.840 Yeah, I think I think it's it's fair. 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:42.920 I mean, I mean I often say, you know, with 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.320 three to five years behind, but on a very similar, 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:49.200 if not faster trajectory. You know, Europe's thirty countries, its 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.919 populations double the size of the US, similar wealth demographic, 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:54.719 you know, and we're just really a little behind to 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.320 the point where actually when we decided to set up 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.719 Handy TF four or five years ago, the AUM in 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.440 the in Europe is where the where the today is 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.480 where the in the US was at the time, right, 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:07.800 So that sort of almost proves that we are four 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:09.840 or five years behind. I mean, as I say, there 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.320 is some innovation in Europe that's a little bit ahead 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:12.720 of the US. 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.120 You know, we have spot crypto products already in Europe. 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:17.680 It does make us laugh when you guys say the 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.240 world doesn't have a spot bitcoin product, and we think, well, 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.400 we've had that for a few years now, you know, 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.400 and and then esg as well, you know, we think 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.800 we're ahead of you guys to a certain extent. 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:29.680 On that a lot of things you guys are litigating 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:30.359 and fighting about. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.239 You know, we've decided on and moved on now really 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.200 and it's become a just part of the part of 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.800 the mix. I think the Kathy Wood scenario is really 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:44.680 really interesting. She really is going to stir it all 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.240 up in Europe. I mean, you're probably well aware that 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.520 the Europe is pretty much an active market, probably bigger 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.479 from an active basis than the US. 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:55.680 You know, when you look at the full you know, suite. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.480 Of mutual funds and such light. But it hasn't really 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.760 hit the tape yet. On the ETF world, We've got 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.440 some on the fixed income side that Pincord did several 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.599 years ago, but it's not really being a thing on 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:07.599 the equity side. 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:08.960 But I do believe. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:10.400 She's going to shake everything up with that because I 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.280 think she's the first sort of superstar, you know, active 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:15.480 manager in the ETF space. 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.440 You know, both in the US and she will be 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:19.120 in in Europe. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.039 The retail guys know her name as well, and you know, 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.680 with the with the embeddedness of that retail demand, I 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:27.640 think she's going to really really shake it up. So 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.160 I'm really quite excited. I think it'll see a lot 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.799 of people come to the table. And actually, to be fair, 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.080 we've probably had about, you know, over twenty inquiries. You 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.920 know that people have been talking to post the announcement 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.640 with Rice, So we're pretty excited about it, to be honest. 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:43.159 Yeah. 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.760 No, it's interesting back to sort of the Europe being behind. 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.240 So I did deep research on a recent book called 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.720 the Bogle Effect, which was interested seameless Plug. But in 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.200 that book, I looked at the spread of sort of 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.320 ETFs and passive and low cost across the world, and 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.080 it spreads in some places versus others. I kind of 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.120 concluded that you kind of need two things for ETFs 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.800 at least, you know, the traditional beta type ETFs to spread, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:14.720 you need advisors that are fiduciary and get paid as 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.400 a percentage of assets versus a kickback from the mutual fund. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.200 And you need a population that doesn't think its government 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.880 is going to cover it for retirement. And so in 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.640 America we have both in spades. It's big time fee 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:31.559 based advisors. They're seventy five percent of the ETF owners really, 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:34.400 and of course everybody in America doesn't think they're going 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.679 to get so secured or anything, so they're a little 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.960 more savvy so that thus they sort of shop better 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.800 for their financial situation and investments. Can you take that 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.800 and sort of give me the take what it's like 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:49.320 in Europe on those two fronts. 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.000 Yeah, well, I think you know what you've got to 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.320 realize with Europe is it's you know, thirty plus countries, 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:01.880 you know, with different currencies, cultures, exchanges, sellment systems, the whole, 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.400 the whole shooting match, right, So you've got varying degrees 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.520 of off of good climates for what you've just talked about, 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.040 you know, from you know quite socialist, uh, you know, 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.680 countries with strong social infrastructure. 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.040 You know, through to a little bit more entrepreneur a 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:17.240 little bit more capitalist. 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:19.880 But I think where you do see ETF strongest in 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.440 Europe pretty much is I would say, the u UK, Germany, 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:27.440 you know, Italy, with the second tier being Switzerland, France. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.600 But equally, you know, you are seeing some pretty interesting 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:32.960 you know, moves in the Nordics and ben Lux, but 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.680 there are varying degrees of penetration. I think one interesting 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.160 thing in is happening in Germany at the moment, which 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.040 is akin to what you're talking about. There's been a 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.640 massive growth of saving plans, savings plans with the big 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.880 robo advisors and the big banks online brokerage platforms, and 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.240 these are essentially once a month investments and essentially they're 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.520 almost being completely dominated by ETF now, you know. And 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:58.760 they're very tax advantageous as well. So that's a bit 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.240 of a revolution that didn't exist before that is actually 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.280 making people think long and hard, both with the ETF wrapper. 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.280 And also the model portfolios that that back that up. 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.480 I mean, we did something really interesting as well, which 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:12.080 I just like to chuck in there that you know, 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.920 just shows the stage of it that we we we we. 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.840 Crossed listed the first gold product into Poland two weeks 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.839 ago end of end of August, and I think we're 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.160 the eleventh product there of which we're the only foreign 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:25.079 issue of. 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.880 Off off of gold products. You know, Poland's forty million people. 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.480 You know, it's a bit as big as Canada, right, 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:33.840 you know, so you know that that that's that's an 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.120 example of a market. This in very early days, but 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.200 you can see over time it will get adopted and 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.880 will get will get part of it. To the point 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:42.600 where I was saying, you've got, you know, pretty mature 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:46.800 markets like like Germany and and and the UK. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.120 That's why I think you really need somebody who knows 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:49.960 what's going on the ground. 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:51.439 I would say that you know, when US and suit 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.840 has come to Europe, they don't know what they don't know, 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.920 and I think it often means that they they took 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:58.640 two to three years to figure out what they should 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.199 have got right in the first place, but got But 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.240 it's pretty hard to model that and pretty hard to 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:02.840 tell people that. 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:07.160 So if you said you're four to five years behind, 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.920 I'm curious though, because you've also hinted that there are 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.679 things like crypto that you're ahead on. Are there things 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.720 that the US, the US market and American issuers might 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:18.480 be able to learn more from Europe. 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:19.320 Yeah. 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:21.719 I think there's always things people can learn from each other, right, 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.880 I mean, you know, there's there's a lot of smart people, 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:26.720 you know, in both places. And you know, I just 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.280 think that ultimately, you know, you had a great tax advantage, 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:32.240 which you know, speeded up the adoption. I mean I 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.760 always say, you know, eachfs are just a rapper, you know, 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.760 they're not They're not an asset class or a you know, 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.000 or a certain type of investment, but just a way 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:43.240 to do a delivery mechanism to give a payout to clients. 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.439 And it just makes you know, and it's not even 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:47.440 new technology, you know. 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:48.640 I always use the analogy. 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.440 It's it's like mobile funds and landlines when you describe 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.920 mutual funds versus ETFs. You know, but ultimately the technology 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:56.959 will win the day. And I think that's that's essentially 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.280 what we're seeing. And you know, and I do I 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.400 do think you know where you know, we do have 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:04.080 areas we are I. 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.240 Think ahead, you know, and a lot of it's. 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.640 Regulatory regulatory environment, you know, you know, the crypto side. 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.680 You know, in Germany in particular, you know, they have 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:17.640 you know, very very benign crypto regulations. I mean, they 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.200 made crypto official financial instuments in twenty twenty. 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:22.160 Then I think another. 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.079 Side that I think, you know, the US can learn 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:28.199 quite heavily from the Europe is the use of share classes. 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:30.440 You know, we've used share classes pretty much since day 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.000 one in Europe. I mean obviously a Vanguard and its 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.760 patent which prevented that, but most of ETFs in Europe 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.680 WI have multiple share classes, whether it's accumulating, distributing, whether 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.679 it's currency hedged, you know, whether it's you know, lower fees. 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:49.360 I mean you even have an unlisted share class ability 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:51.560 in Europe now where you can basically blend the mutual 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.200 fund with ETF, you know, and you can have basically 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.120 an invisible share class that nobody says unless it's sull 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:01.080 to them. So but equally, I think where you guys, 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:03.600 you know, really knock spots of US is really on 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.560 the retail side. I think the retail really underpins the 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.400 eatif stories easier success points, and I think the barriers 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:13.040 to entry is so significantly less in the US and 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.040 they are in Europe. And hence why I think white 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.920 labels are really important because you know building, you know, 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.680 the infrastructure in Europe to get across thirty countries, you know, 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.120 probably is a two to three year journey five to 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.200 ten million dollars, and that's before you've even started making 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:26.040 any money, right. 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:27.199 So it's a big, big decision. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.280 And then you've got to go against the beer moth 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.480 like you know, Vanguard and A Monday and black Rock, 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.440 you know. So so it's a big decision for a 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.720 lot of people, but it's what ultimately everyone's going to 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:38.120 have to take. 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:47.560 Talking a little more about that retail angle, I remember 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.160 going over there again, maybe been in Europe three times 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.600 in the past like twelve years, and what you'll hear is, Oh, 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.400 it's really institutional over here, not a ton of retail. 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.000 And I'm assuming that you put financial advisors in retail 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.280 else since they're managing retail money versus institutions would be 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:08.240 like endowments, pensions, hedge funds, traders. When we look at 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.880 that retail advisor market, what do you think is going 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.880 to be key to penetrating it? Is it the plumbing 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.960 or is it more of the psychology of the investor there. 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.120 I think it's a mixture mixture of everything. Really. 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.760 I think it's the I think it's the broader adoption 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.000 of the products. It's you know, the product's being more 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.600 interesting than just being you know, five business points chreaper 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:32.480 than the last guys, right, you know, And that's where 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.400 I think thematics make a lot of a lot of sense. 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.720 I mean, you know, just an example, we you know, 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.679 we we set up spots uranium miners that they have 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.080 in the US, you are, and we've got the same 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.120 product now in Europe. You know, listen over over over 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.360 a year ago. It's just popped one hundred and fifty million, 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.320 you know, And and that's been largely retail driven because 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:52.880 it's a good story, you know, people looking for that exposure, 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.880 the press picking up, the you know, the trade magazines. 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:57.400 All those types of things. 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.160 But I think the sweet spot currently is pretty much 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:02.200 in the sort of wealth management, private banking space. 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:04.480 And I think the sort of pure retail angle is 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:05.040 picking up. 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.400 And I think largely because we're starting to get our 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.880 sort of challenger brokerage platforms now similar to your Robin Hood. 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.680 You know, we've got free trade, two on two trading. 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.600 All these guys are offering free trading, fractional trading, you know, 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.920 things that weren't available until the last few years and 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:22.840 the technology wasn't there to do it, you know, So 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.560 I think that's been really important. I sort of expect 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.760 the next stage that will be, you know, mass adoption 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.480 of model portfolios as well. So you know, I think 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.560 again that's just as catching up to you guys, I 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.760 think from that perspective. But it's that sort of ecosystem, 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:37.040 as you say, that's really important. 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.360 You're totally describing something that seems like it's exactly four 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:41.120 to five years old. 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:42.200 You know. 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.240 One element that's also kind of interesting to me though, 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:50.120 is Eric Paulled ETF market share for Europe, and it's 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.240 it's fascinating how similar the names are, right, You've got 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.840 I Shares at number one, you got Vanguard at number four, 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.000 you got Spider at number six. But then there's like 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.680 other names in here, and I'm just wondering from a 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.960 from a you know, competitive standpoint. You had mentioned a 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.280 MOUNDI before their number two, X Tracers at number three, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.240 Ubs at number five, so there is a different a 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.960 difference here, I guess too, and just the number and 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:15.040 types of players. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:16.080 So what is that? 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.120 How's that unfolding? And how could this end up being 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.600 a different sort of competition than the exact same players 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:23.960 that are in the US. 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.760 I think, if we're brutally honest, I think the sort 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.520 of bigger players have won the passive space, you know, 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:32.360 the cheap passive space. I don't think that's up for 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.080 grabs anymore, you know, So I think they sort of 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.000 cheap SMP fives. I mean, you know, we got this 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:41.080 ridiculous scenario where there's fifty euros eurostocks, fifty products in Europe. 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.560 You know, there's forty s and P five hundred products 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.280 and that's largely driven by you know, every bank, and 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.160 you know major asset manager who's got a wealth management 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.720 business needs those core products to you know, to be 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:53.520 competitive and. 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:54.600 To have that offering. 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.600 And also you're talking about, as I mentioned before, thirty 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.000 of country. So you know, somebody might be strong in Switzerland's, 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.520 somebody might be strong in Germany, whatever it is. But 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.920 obviously you've got those common players that you know, are 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.920 global players who will always be hoovering up you know, 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.760 that market share, around the costs, the scale, those types 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.520 of arguments. So I think, so I think this this 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:15.920 sort of next movement into the you know et F 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:20.479 two point zero or three point zero, whether it's you know, sematics, 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.640 whether it's active, whether it's you know, more IP driven 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:24.520 good idea. 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:25.480 Products, you know. 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.160 I mean, we we did a product you guys don't 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.040 have in the US yet, which I think is a 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:32.280 real good, good example of something you know, quite quite. 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.120 Niche, but but pretty cool. You know. 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:39.320 We created a physically backed carbon credit product. 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:39.520 Now. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.480 You know, we did the first futures back carbon product 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.040 back in two thousand and seven at EATF Securities that's 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.160 now owned by Wisdom Try that was backed by Shell, 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:49.480 you know. But actually we did. 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.600 Something three years ago with the company called spark Change 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:52.440 Tickets c or. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.480 Two where we actually owned the euas directly with the 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.600 European Union, you know. So we were I think one 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.800 of the first financial companies that were allowed to do that, 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.440 you know, so rather than be you know, a non 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.440 part of the physical story, because the finite supply there's 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:08.840 a bit like the bitcoin and gold story. 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.880 You know, there's a finite supply off carbon credits. 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.440 You know, you as a personal investment now can own 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.720 those you and effectively affect the demand. 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.840 Supply side of that of that asset class. 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.800 So so I think that's where you can sort of 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:24.919 muscle in and get a bit of air time, you know, 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:30.000 next to these huge giants who otherwise, you know, create 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:31.919 a vacuum and hoover up all the all the space, 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:32.600 you know, and that's. 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:33.080 Where you've got to do. 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.040 You've got to be you've got to be innovative, and 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.199 you've got to just make sure that you you've got 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.119 strong en availables to make sure you heard in that 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:40.400 in that sort of scenario. 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:42.919 It's funny. So we have in the US, we have 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.920 the three c's for ETF success, cheap, creative or cabernet. 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:50.440 You're talking about the creative. You've got to do something 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.639 very different than beta, something innovative that can work. You 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:55.760 can innovate your way to assets. The cabernet is the 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.679 old school. Let me whine and die in the advisors 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.040 and brokers, hook them up, kiss their butt, give them 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.120 golf balls, and there is a lane for that. It's shrinking, 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.959