1
00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,240
Speaker 1: Welcome new Trillions. I'm Joel Webber and.

2
00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 2: I'm Eric Belchunas Eric, we try and do the global

3
00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,120
Speaker 2: story of ETFs on Trillions.

4
00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:18,959
Speaker 1: A lot of the times we're pretty US centric on that.

5
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:20,959
Speaker 1: I know we've done India recently. And then there is

6
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,720
Speaker 1: this headline that moved from Bloomberg News recently about Kathy

7
00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,680
Speaker 1: Wood acquiring Rise ETF and making a play for Europe,

8
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,640
Speaker 1: and Europe is actually like a quiet ETF market and

9
00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:34,600
Speaker 1: that made me want to talk to you more about

10
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,760
Speaker 1: that and dedicate this episode to it.

11
00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've been to Europe a couple of

12
00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,000
Speaker 2: times as an ETF analyst and visiting clients there, and

13
00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,600
Speaker 2: it's a really different market. We cover it on my team,

14
00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:47,760
Speaker 2: and like I said, some of the stuff over there

15
00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,760
Speaker 2: is a little different than the US and it's interesting.

16
00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,440
Speaker 2: But many of the issuers like black Rock and Vanguard

17
00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 2: and Invesco and JP Morgan are all trying to sell

18
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,000
Speaker 2: their stuff over there. And it's interesting with ARC right

19
00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 2: because now you've got to thematic issue, we're actually moving

20
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,760
Speaker 2: over there. Kathy Wood was interviewed and said that she

21
00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:06,920
Speaker 2: found that twenty five percent of the downloads from her

22
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,560
Speaker 2: research were in Europe, and that was what sparked her

23
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,640
Speaker 2: to move over there, and so it's an interesting time

24
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:14,960
Speaker 2: to cover that area. They've got about one point five

25
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,640
Speaker 2: trillion dollars in assets over there, so it's, you know,

26
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,480
Speaker 2: a fraction of the US, but it's growing, I believe,

27
00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 2: on a percentage basis, slightly faster than the US. And

28
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,720
Speaker 2: so also in Europe you can charge higher fees and

29
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,520
Speaker 2: so a lot of the issues here are getting vanguarded

30
00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,199
Speaker 2: to death and so over in Europe, even though Vanguard exists,

31
00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,480
Speaker 2: it's not quite as intense in the cost of obsession.

32
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,040
Speaker 2: So from a revenue point of view, I could totally

33
00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,280
Speaker 2: see the drive to go over there. But there's all

34
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,560
Speaker 2: kinds of like acronyms over there, like usets and mifids

35
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 2: and regulations, and I think it's interesting to get into

36
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,600
Speaker 2: the differences between that continent and US, and you know,

37
00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,120
Speaker 2: what works over there and what doesn't.

38
00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,680
Speaker 1: And help us navigate what it all looks like. Hector McNeil,

39
00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,440
Speaker 1: who's the co CEO, owner and founder of han ATF,

40
00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 1: this time on Trillions.

41
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:04,800
Speaker 3: What's going on in Europe?

42
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:08,920
Speaker 1: Hector, welcome to Trillions.

43
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:10,480
Speaker 4: Hey guys, how are you doing good?

44
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,839
Speaker 1: Thanks? Hey, so Eric thinks you're like mister Europe for ETFs,

45
00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,760
Speaker 1: and he's like kind of like he thinks of himself

46
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,679
Speaker 1: as like mister America. So how does mister Europe feel

47
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:21,600
Speaker 1: about mister America.

48
00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:22,840
Speaker 4: Well, there you go.

49
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,200
Speaker 3: It sounds like a couple of superheroes meeting each other,

50
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 3: doesn't it.

51
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,840
Speaker 5: But again, people saw us, they know that was that

52
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 5: was far away from the truth. But no, certainly, I

53
00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 5: think when you say things like that, it just means

54
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,160
Speaker 5: I'm old and I've been around for a long time.

55
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,760
Speaker 5: But you know, certainly I've been here, and you know,

56
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,120
Speaker 5: I say, I think you would say I've seen it,

57
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,720
Speaker 5: done it, pinched it, spent it for sure, that's for sure.

58
00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,200
Speaker 2: Well let me let me say why I thought that

59
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,120
Speaker 2: is that Hector isn't just an ETF issuer. He's a

60
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 2: white label issuer. So if you're in Europe or even

61
00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,120
Speaker 2: in US, and you want to launch an ETF in Europe,

62
00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:54,560
Speaker 2: you may go to him just to get the lay

63
00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,240
Speaker 2: of the land. So he has all the answers and

64
00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,239
Speaker 2: that's what he's used to doing. And so that is

65
00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,600
Speaker 2: an interesting per And so before we get into your

66
00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,480
Speaker 2: perch there, tell us a little bit of how you

67
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,519
Speaker 2: got there. What was your road to become a white

68
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:08,160
Speaker 2: label issure.

69
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:10,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty interesting really.

70
00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,880
Speaker 5: I've been involved in ETF pretty much in the start

71
00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,600
Speaker 5: late nineties in Europe, and I first got involved by

72
00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,799
Speaker 5: setting up Saskuhanas ETF business in Europe. So I was

73
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:21,840
Speaker 5: there nearly just on the five years, and then I

74
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,480
Speaker 5: left there and went to be one of the founders

75
00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,120
Speaker 5: and owners of ETF Securities. So I was course CEO

76
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,800
Speaker 5: there and co founder with my buddy now Nick and

77
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,480
Speaker 5: handstands for Hector and Nick. So while we were at

78
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 5: ETFs US, we invented gold ETFs create the first gold

79
00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,760
Speaker 5: ECHF in the world in Australia, brought it to London.

80
00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,360
Speaker 5: Then a couple of years later we helped the Go

81
00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,440
Speaker 5: Council create the GLD. So sometimes Europe is ahead, you

82
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,640
Speaker 5: know in the US, and get there before them, and

83
00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,680
Speaker 5: then we were. We created a business called Boost Nick

84
00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,840
Speaker 5: and I which was a short leverage provider similar to

85
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,080
Speaker 5: Direction pro Shares that ultimately got bought out by Wisdom Tree,

86
00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 5: which we then set up Wisdom Trees business in Europe.

87
00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,920
Speaker 5: Again we were core CEOs, co founders. We co owned

88
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,360
Speaker 5: Wizd'try Europe with wisdon try and then they bought us out.

89
00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,640
Speaker 5: So hands afourth ETF business, fourth and master have to say,

90
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 5: And in that time we've issued just allver six hundred

91
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,680
Speaker 5: and fifty ETFs and ETPs, which I think equates about

92
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,599
Speaker 5: eight percent of every ETF on the planet.

93
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 3: So not by AUM, unfortunately, but by by a number

94
00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:21,240
Speaker 3: of products.

95
00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:22,360
Speaker 4: So I think we do.

96
00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,160
Speaker 3: We think that we know our stuff pretty well.

97
00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:30,560
Speaker 1: So perception though is that Europe is always behind in

98
00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,920
Speaker 1: in the ETF market. How true is that perception? And

99
00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:35,960
Speaker 1: and how big is an opportunity when you see somebody

100
00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:37,800
Speaker 1: like Kathy would make an acquisition like this.

101
00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:40,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think it's it's fair.

102
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:42,920
Speaker 5: I mean, I mean I often say, you know, with

103
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,320
Speaker 5: three to five years behind, but on a very similar,

104
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,200
Speaker 5: if not faster trajectory. You know, Europe's thirty countries, its

105
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,919
Speaker 5: populations double the size of the US, similar wealth demographic,

106
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,719
Speaker 5: you know, and we're just really a little behind to

107
00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,320
Speaker 5: the point where actually when we decided to set up

108
00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,719
Speaker 5: Handy TF four or five years ago, the AUM in

109
00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 5: the in Europe is where the where the today is

110
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,480
Speaker 5: where the in the US was at the time, right,

111
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,800
Speaker 5: So that sort of almost proves that we are four

112
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:09,840
Speaker 5: or five years behind. I mean, as I say, there

113
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,320
Speaker 5: is some innovation in Europe that's a little bit ahead

114
00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:12,720
Speaker 5: of the US.

115
00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 3: You know, we have spot crypto products already in Europe.

116
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:17,680
Speaker 5: It does make us laugh when you guys say the

117
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 5: world doesn't have a spot bitcoin product, and we think, well,

118
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,400
Speaker 5: we've had that for a few years now, you know,

119
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,400
Speaker 5: and and then esg as well, you know, we think

120
00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,800
Speaker 5: we're ahead of you guys to a certain extent.

121
00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,680
Speaker 3: On that a lot of things you guys are litigating

122
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:30,359
Speaker 3: and fighting about.

123
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,239
Speaker 5: You know, we've decided on and moved on now really

124
00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,200
Speaker 5: and it's become a just part of the part of

125
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,800
Speaker 5: the mix. I think the Kathy Wood scenario is really

126
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:44,680
Speaker 5: really interesting. She really is going to stir it all

127
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 5: up in Europe. I mean, you're probably well aware that

128
00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 5: the Europe is pretty much an active market, probably bigger

129
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,479
Speaker 5: from an active basis than the US.

130
00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,680
Speaker 3: You know, when you look at the full you know, suite.

131
00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,480
Speaker 5: Of mutual funds and such light. But it hasn't really

132
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 5: hit the tape yet. On the ETF world, We've got

133
00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,440
Speaker 5: some on the fixed income side that Pincord did several

134
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,599
Speaker 5: years ago, but it's not really being a thing on

135
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:07,599
Speaker 5: the equity side.

136
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:08,960
Speaker 3: But I do believe.

137
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 5: She's going to shake everything up with that because I

138
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,280
Speaker 5: think she's the first sort of superstar, you know, active

139
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:15,480
Speaker 5: manager in the ETF space.

140
00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 3: You know, both in the US and she will be

141
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:19,120
Speaker 3: in in Europe.

142
00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,039
Speaker 5: The retail guys know her name as well, and you know,

143
00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,680
Speaker 5: with the with the embeddedness of that retail demand, I

144
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 5: think she's going to really really shake it up. So

145
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,160
Speaker 5: I'm really quite excited. I think it'll see a lot

146
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,799
Speaker 5: of people come to the table. And actually, to be fair,

147
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,080
Speaker 5: we've probably had about, you know, over twenty inquiries. You

148
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,920
Speaker 5: know that people have been talking to post the announcement

149
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,640
Speaker 5: with Rice, So we're pretty excited about it, to be honest.

150
00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:43,159
Speaker 3: Yeah.

151
00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,760
Speaker 2: No, it's interesting back to sort of the Europe being behind.

152
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,240
Speaker 2: So I did deep research on a recent book called

153
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,720
Speaker 2: the Bogle Effect, which was interested seameless Plug. But in

154
00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,200
Speaker 2: that book, I looked at the spread of sort of

155
00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,320
Speaker 2: ETFs and passive and low cost across the world, and

156
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,080
Speaker 2: it spreads in some places versus others. I kind of

157
00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,120
Speaker 2: concluded that you kind of need two things for ETFs

158
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,800
Speaker 2: at least, you know, the traditional beta type ETFs to spread,

159
00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 2: you need advisors that are fiduciary and get paid as

160
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 2: a percentage of assets versus a kickback from the mutual fund.

161
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,200
Speaker 2: And you need a population that doesn't think its government

162
00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,880
Speaker 2: is going to cover it for retirement. And so in

163
00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,640
Speaker 2: America we have both in spades. It's big time fee

164
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,559
Speaker 2: based advisors. They're seventy five percent of the ETF owners really,

165
00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,400
Speaker 2: and of course everybody in America doesn't think they're going

166
00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,679
Speaker 2: to get so secured or anything, so they're a little

167
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,960
Speaker 2: more savvy so that thus they sort of shop better

168
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,800
Speaker 2: for their financial situation and investments. Can you take that

169
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,800
Speaker 2: and sort of give me the take what it's like

170
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 2: in Europe on those two fronts.

171
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think you know what you've got to

172
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 5: realize with Europe is it's you know, thirty plus countries,

173
00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:01,880
Speaker 5: you know, with different currencies, cultures, exchanges, sellment systems, the whole,

174
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 5: the whole shooting match, right, So you've got varying degrees

175
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 5: of off of good climates for what you've just talked about,

176
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,040
Speaker 5: you know, from you know quite socialist, uh, you know,

177
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,680
Speaker 5: countries with strong social infrastructure.

178
00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,040
Speaker 3: You know, through to a little bit more entrepreneur a

179
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,240
Speaker 3: little bit more capitalist.

180
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,880
Speaker 5: But I think where you do see ETF strongest in

181
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,440
Speaker 5: Europe pretty much is I would say, the u UK, Germany,

182
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,440
Speaker 5: you know, Italy, with the second tier being Switzerland, France.

183
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,600
Speaker 5: But equally, you know, you are seeing some pretty interesting

184
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,960
Speaker 5: you know, moves in the Nordics and ben Lux, but

185
00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,680
Speaker 5: there are varying degrees of penetration. I think one interesting

186
00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,160
Speaker 5: thing in is happening in Germany at the moment, which

187
00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,040
Speaker 5: is akin to what you're talking about. There's been a

188
00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 5: massive growth of saving plans, savings plans with the big

189
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 5: robo advisors and the big banks online brokerage platforms, and

190
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 5: these are essentially once a month investments and essentially they're

191
00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,520
Speaker 5: almost being completely dominated by ETF now, you know. And

192
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,760
Speaker 5: they're very tax advantageous as well. So that's a bit

193
00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,240
Speaker 5: of a revolution that didn't exist before that is actually

194
00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,280
Speaker 5: making people think long and hard, both with the ETF wrapper.

195
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,280
Speaker 3: And also the model portfolios that that back that up.

196
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,480
Speaker 3: I mean, we did something really interesting as well, which

197
00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,080
Speaker 3: I just like to chuck in there that you know,

198
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,920
Speaker 3: just shows the stage of it that we we we we.

199
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,840
Speaker 5: Crossed listed the first gold product into Poland two weeks

200
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,839
Speaker 5: ago end of end of August, and I think we're

201
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,160
Speaker 5: the eleventh product there of which we're the only foreign

202
00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:25,079
Speaker 5: issue of.

203
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,880
Speaker 3: Off off of gold products. You know, Poland's forty million people.

204
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,480
Speaker 5: You know, it's a bit as big as Canada, right,

205
00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 5: you know, so you know that that that's that's an

206
00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 5: example of a market. This in very early days, but

207
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 5: you can see over time it will get adopted and

208
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,880
Speaker 5: will get will get part of it. To the point

209
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,600
Speaker 5: where I was saying, you've got, you know, pretty mature

210
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,800
Speaker 5: markets like like Germany and and and the UK.

211
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,120
Speaker 3: That's why I think you really need somebody who knows

212
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:49,960
Speaker 3: what's going on the ground.

213
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,439
Speaker 5: I would say that you know, when US and suit

214
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,840
Speaker 5: has come to Europe, they don't know what they don't know,

215
00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 5: and I think it often means that they they took

216
00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:58,640
Speaker 5: two to three years to figure out what they should

217
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,199
Speaker 5: have got right in the first place, but got But

218
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,240
Speaker 5: it's pretty hard to model that and pretty hard to

219
00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:02,840
Speaker 5: tell people that.

220
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 1: So if you said you're four to five years behind,

221
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 1: I'm curious though, because you've also hinted that there are

222
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,679
Speaker 1: things like crypto that you're ahead on. Are there things

223
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,720
Speaker 1: that the US, the US market and American issuers might

224
00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 1: be able to learn more from Europe.

225
00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:19,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

226
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,719
Speaker 5: I think there's always things people can learn from each other, right,

227
00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,880
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, there's there's a lot of smart people,

228
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,720
Speaker 5: you know, in both places. And you know, I just

229
00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,280
Speaker 5: think that ultimately, you know, you had a great tax advantage,

230
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,240
Speaker 5: which you know, speeded up the adoption. I mean I

231
00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,760
Speaker 5: always say, you know, eachfs are just a rapper, you know,

232
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,760
Speaker 5: they're not They're not an asset class or a you know,

233
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,000
Speaker 5: or a certain type of investment, but just a way

234
00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,240
Speaker 5: to do a delivery mechanism to give a payout to clients.

235
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,439
Speaker 5: And it just makes you know, and it's not even

236
00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:47,440
Speaker 5: new technology, you know.

237
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:48,640
Speaker 3: I always use the analogy.

238
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 5: It's it's like mobile funds and landlines when you describe

239
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 5: mutual funds versus ETFs. You know, but ultimately the technology

240
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,959
Speaker 5: will win the day. And I think that's that's essentially

241
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,280
Speaker 5: what we're seeing. And you know, and I do I

242
00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,400
Speaker 5: do think you know where you know, we do have

243
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,080
Speaker 5: areas we are I.

244
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,240
Speaker 3: Think ahead, you know, and a lot of it's.

245
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,640
Speaker 5: Regulatory regulatory environment, you know, you know, the crypto side.

246
00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 5: You know, in Germany in particular, you know, they have

247
00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,640
Speaker 5: you know, very very benign crypto regulations. I mean, they

248
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,200
Speaker 5: made crypto official financial instuments in twenty twenty.

249
00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 4: Then I think another.

250
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,079
Speaker 5: Side that I think, you know, the US can learn

251
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,199
Speaker 5: quite heavily from the Europe is the use of share classes.

252
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,440
Speaker 5: You know, we've used share classes pretty much since day

253
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,000
Speaker 5: one in Europe. I mean obviously a Vanguard and its

254
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,760
Speaker 5: patent which prevented that, but most of ETFs in Europe

255
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,680
Speaker 5: WI have multiple share classes, whether it's accumulating, distributing, whether

256
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,679
Speaker 5: it's currency hedged, you know, whether it's you know, lower fees.

257
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,360
Speaker 5: I mean you even have an unlisted share class ability

258
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,560
Speaker 5: in Europe now where you can basically blend the mutual

259
00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,200
Speaker 5: fund with ETF, you know, and you can have basically

260
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,120
Speaker 5: an invisible share class that nobody says unless it's sull

261
00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,080
Speaker 5: to them. So but equally, I think where you guys,

262
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,600
Speaker 5: you know, really knock spots of US is really on

263
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 5: the retail side. I think the retail really underpins the

264
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,400
Speaker 5: eatif stories easier success points, and I think the barriers

265
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,040
Speaker 5: to entry is so significantly less in the US and

266
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,040
Speaker 5: they are in Europe. And hence why I think white

267
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,920
Speaker 5: labels are really important because you know building, you know,

268
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,680
Speaker 5: the infrastructure in Europe to get across thirty countries, you know,

269
00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,120
Speaker 5: probably is a two to three year journey five to

270
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,200
Speaker 5: ten million dollars, and that's before you've even started making

271
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 5: any money, right.

272
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:27,199
Speaker 3: So it's a big, big decision.

273
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,280
Speaker 5: And then you've got to go against the beer moth

274
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,480
Speaker 5: like you know, Vanguard and A Monday and black Rock,

275
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,440
Speaker 5: you know. So so it's a big decision for a

276
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,720
Speaker 5: lot of people, but it's what ultimately everyone's going to

277
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:38,120
Speaker 5: have to take.

278
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,560
Speaker 2: Talking a little more about that retail angle, I remember

279
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 2: going over there again, maybe been in Europe three times

280
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,600
Speaker 2: in the past like twelve years, and what you'll hear is, Oh,

281
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,400
Speaker 2: it's really institutional over here, not a ton of retail.

282
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming that you put financial advisors in retail

283
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 2: else since they're managing retail money versus institutions would be

284
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:08,240
Speaker 2: like endowments, pensions, hedge funds, traders. When we look at

285
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,880
Speaker 2: that retail advisor market, what do you think is going

286
00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,880
Speaker 2: to be key to penetrating it? Is it the plumbing

287
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,960
Speaker 2: or is it more of the psychology of the investor there.

288
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 4: I think it's a mixture mixture of everything. Really.

289
00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,760
Speaker 5: I think it's the I think it's the broader adoption

290
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,000
Speaker 5: of the products. It's you know, the product's being more

291
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,600
Speaker 5: interesting than just being you know, five business points chreaper

292
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,480
Speaker 5: than the last guys, right, you know, And that's where

293
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 5: I think thematics make a lot of a lot of sense.

294
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,720
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, just an example, we you know,

295
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,679
Speaker 5: we we set up spots uranium miners that they have

296
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,080
Speaker 5: in the US, you are, and we've got the same

297
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,120
Speaker 5: product now in Europe. You know, listen over over over

298
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,360
Speaker 5: a year ago. It's just popped one hundred and fifty million,

299
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,320
Speaker 5: you know, And and that's been largely retail driven because

300
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,880
Speaker 5: it's a good story, you know, people looking for that exposure,

301
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,880
Speaker 5: the press picking up, the you know, the trade magazines.

302
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:57,400
Speaker 4: All those types of things.

303
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,160
Speaker 5: But I think the sweet spot currently is pretty much

304
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 5: in the sort of wealth management, private banking space.

305
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,480
Speaker 3: And I think the sort of pure retail angle is

306
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 3: picking up.

307
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,400
Speaker 5: And I think largely because we're starting to get our

308
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 5: sort of challenger brokerage platforms now similar to your Robin Hood.

309
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,680
Speaker 3: You know, we've got free trade, two on two trading.

310
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,600
Speaker 5: All these guys are offering free trading, fractional trading, you know,

311
00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 5: things that weren't available until the last few years and

312
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 5: the technology wasn't there to do it, you know, So

313
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,560
Speaker 5: I think that's been really important. I sort of expect

314
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,760
Speaker 5: the next stage that will be, you know, mass adoption

315
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 5: of model portfolios as well. So you know, I think

316
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 5: again that's just as catching up to you guys, I

317
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,760
Speaker 5: think from that perspective. But it's that sort of ecosystem,

318
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,040
Speaker 5: as you say, that's really important.

319
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,360
Speaker 1: You're totally describing something that seems like it's exactly four

320
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:41,120
Speaker 1: to five years old.

321
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:42,200
Speaker 3: You know.

322
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,240
Speaker 1: One element that's also kind of interesting to me though,

323
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 1: is Eric Paulled ETF market share for Europe, and it's

324
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,240
Speaker 1: it's fascinating how similar the names are, right, You've got

325
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,840
Speaker 1: I Shares at number one, you got Vanguard at number four,

326
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,000
Speaker 1: you got Spider at number six. But then there's like

327
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,680
Speaker 1: other names in here, and I'm just wondering from a

328
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 1: from a you know, competitive standpoint. You had mentioned a

329
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,280
Speaker 1: MOUNDI before their number two, X Tracers at number three,

330
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,240
Speaker 1: Ubs at number five, so there is a different a

331
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,960
Speaker 1: difference here, I guess too, and just the number and

332
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,040
Speaker 1: types of players.

333
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 4: So what is that?

334
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,120
Speaker 1: How's that unfolding? And how could this end up being

335
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,600
Speaker 1: a different sort of competition than the exact same players

336
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:23,960
Speaker 1: that are in the US.

337
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,760
Speaker 5: I think, if we're brutally honest, I think the sort

338
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 5: of bigger players have won the passive space, you know,

339
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,360
Speaker 5: the cheap passive space. I don't think that's up for

340
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,080
Speaker 5: grabs anymore, you know, So I think they sort of

341
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,000
Speaker 5: cheap SMP fives. I mean, you know, we got this

342
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 5: ridiculous scenario where there's fifty euros eurostocks, fifty products in Europe.

343
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,560
Speaker 5: You know, there's forty s and P five hundred products

344
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,280
Speaker 5: and that's largely driven by you know, every bank, and

345
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,160
Speaker 5: you know major asset manager who's got a wealth management

346
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,720
Speaker 5: business needs those core products to you know, to be

347
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 5: competitive and.

348
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:54,600
Speaker 3: To have that offering.

349
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,600
Speaker 5: And also you're talking about, as I mentioned before, thirty

350
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,000
Speaker 5: of country. So you know, somebody might be strong in Switzerland's,

351
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,520
Speaker 5: somebody might be strong in Germany, whatever it is. But

352
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 5: obviously you've got those common players that you know, are

353
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,920
Speaker 5: global players who will always be hoovering up you know,

354
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,760
Speaker 5: that market share, around the costs, the scale, those types

355
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 5: of arguments. So I think, so I think this this

356
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,920
Speaker 5: sort of next movement into the you know et F

357
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,479
Speaker 5: two point zero or three point zero, whether it's you know, sematics,

358
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,640
Speaker 5: whether it's active, whether it's you know, more IP driven

359
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:24,520
Speaker 5: good idea.

360
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 3: Products, you know.

361
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,160
Speaker 5: I mean, we we did a product you guys don't

362
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 5: have in the US yet, which I think is a

363
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,280
Speaker 5: real good, good example of something you know, quite quite.

364
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,120
Speaker 3: Niche, but but pretty cool. You know.

365
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:39,320
Speaker 5: We created a physically backed carbon credit product.

366
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 3: Now.

367
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,480
Speaker 5: You know, we did the first futures back carbon product

368
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,040
Speaker 5: back in two thousand and seven at EATF Securities that's

369
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 5: now owned by Wisdom Try that was backed by Shell,

370
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,480
Speaker 5: you know. But actually we did.

371
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 3: Something three years ago with the company called spark Change

372
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:52,440
Speaker 3: Tickets c or.

373
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 5: Two where we actually owned the euas directly with the

374
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,600
Speaker 5: European Union, you know. So we were I think one

375
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,800
Speaker 5: of the first financial companies that were allowed to do that,

376
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,440
Speaker 5: you know, so rather than be you know, a non

377
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,440
Speaker 5: part of the physical story, because the finite supply there's

378
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:08,840
Speaker 5: a bit like the bitcoin and gold story.

379
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,880
Speaker 3: You know, there's a finite supply off carbon credits.

380
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,440
Speaker 5: You know, you as a personal investment now can own

381
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 5: those you and effectively affect the demand.

382
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,840
Speaker 3: Supply side of that of that asset class.

383
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,800
Speaker 5: So so I think that's where you can sort of

384
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,919
Speaker 5: muscle in and get a bit of air time, you know,

385
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 5: next to these huge giants who otherwise, you know, create

386
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,919
Speaker 5: a vacuum and hoover up all the all the space,

387
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:32,600
Speaker 5: you know, and that's.

388
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 3: Where you've got to do.

389
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,040
Speaker 5: You've got to be you've got to be innovative, and

390
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,199
Speaker 5: you've got to just make sure that you you've got

391
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,119
Speaker 5: strong en availables to make sure you heard in that

392
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:40,400
Speaker 5: in that sort of scenario.

393
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:42,919
Speaker 2: It's funny. So we have in the US, we have

394
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,920
Speaker 2: the three c's for ETF success, cheap, creative or cabernet.

395
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 2: You're talking about the creative. You've got to do something

396
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 2: very different than beta, something innovative that can work. You

397
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,760
Speaker 2: can innovate your way to assets. The cabernet is the

398
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,679
Speaker 2: old school. Let me whine and die in the advisors

399
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 2: and brokers, hook them up, kiss their butt, give them

400
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,120
Speaker 2: golf balls, and there is a lane for that. It's shrinking,

401
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,959
Speaker 2: but it still exists here. But I think I wanted to,

402
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:10,360
Speaker 2: you know, kind of jump on that a little bit

403
00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 2: with I have seen a bifurcation in the US. Forming

404
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 2: it used to be you'd buy like the fidelity fund

405
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,360
Speaker 2: for your core retirement. But over the years people replace

406
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,280
Speaker 2: that with as you said, cheap beta. But then they

407
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 2: don't want to just have three funds that are sort

408
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,880
Speaker 2: of vanilla and boring. They want to add on top

409
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,760
Speaker 2: of that, so they look for things that are very different.

410
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,719
Speaker 2: I call it hot sauce. Carbon credits would be, that

411
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,400
Speaker 2: arc would be that, thematic ets would be that gold, crypto.

412
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,120
Speaker 2: All that stuff I think has a viable lane. It's

413
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,280
Speaker 2: not as big as the core of the portfolio, but

414
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,679
Speaker 2: ten to fifteen percent of a lot of portfolios. So

415
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,680
Speaker 2: therefore the client has a low cost based and then

416
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 2: adds on sort of to customize and scratch their fomo

417
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,240
Speaker 2: witch and in that way they can participate and speculate.

418
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 2: Like with uranium, that's a story they can participate in.

419
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,439
Speaker 2: So they're being active, but their portfolio is filled with

420
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,160
Speaker 2: things that are either cheap or shiny. Do you see

421
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,800
Speaker 2: that happening in Europe over the years, and that sort

422
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,320
Speaker 2: of old school mutual fund that's close to the index

423
00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,120
Speaker 2: but charges one hundred basis points kind of goes extinct.

424
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's exactly what is happening. You know,

425
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 5: I have to say I don't think is happening quick enough,

426
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,760
Speaker 5: you know, I do think the governments and regulators should

427
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,360
Speaker 5: be pushing that down down the road. We all see

428
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 5: those academic studies that show the degradation on long term portfolios.

429
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 3: Due to the fees, right, So so if you're not.

430
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,159
Speaker 5: Adding any IP or any added value, you know, you know,

431
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,879
Speaker 5: you should go off as cheap as possible, as much

432
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,920
Speaker 5: scale as possible. So we're certainly seeing that where people

433
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,359
Speaker 5: are waking up to the fact that, you know, the

434
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,919
Speaker 5: classic gold index trackers at one percent just make no

435
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,919
Speaker 5: sense to anybody. And I do think that, you know

436
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 5: what I always felt about, you know, products with good.

437
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,879
Speaker 4: IP and stuff that investors get their head around.

438
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 5: There are all many CIOs or investment managers you know,

439
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,199
Speaker 5: who want to feel that they've done their homework and

440
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 5: got good ideas, and you know, as you say, you know,

441
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,320
Speaker 5: have a part of their portfolio that is a little bit,

442
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 5: a little bit more out there, a bit more bit

443
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 5: more spicy. As you say that, you know, is a

444
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 5: bit more you know, effectively in active decision that they're

445
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 5: putting into their portfolios. And you know, obviously, you know,

446
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 5: I've always been a big believer in PR for ETF selling,

447
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 5: you know, and I think you can really reach retail

448
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 5: pretty well and get that sort of point across where

449
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,879
Speaker 5: you do have a little bit of a differentiator, you know,

450
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 5: through PR. And we have a great example of that

451
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 5: with the raw mint gold product that we have. You know,

452
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 5: we use recycled gold within that, you know, in recycled

453
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 5: golds ninety five percent less carbon intensive than.

454
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 3: The mind gold is the only one in the world

455
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 3: that does that.

456
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 5: Plus we allow retail to have physical delivery of bars

457
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 5: and coins if they want to swap their ETF for

458
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,560
Speaker 5: sovereigns and Britannias, you know, with the.

459
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,200
Speaker 3: Queen or the King's head on it, as I should say.

460
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 5: Now, so you know that that resonates with people, and

461
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 5: well that's cool is we actually put the price up

462
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 5: on that product from twenty two to twenty five basis

463
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 5: points and now the six hundred products have on In

464
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 5: my career, I've never put the price of an et

465
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 5: F up ever, So so I think that that that's

466
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,120
Speaker 5: a real good measure of.

467
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 3: You know, where you can you can get your elbows

468
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:10,640
Speaker 3: out and get.

469
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 5: Some space and you know, show these guys you can

470
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,239
Speaker 5: add value to the space and if you can get

471
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,440
Speaker 5: that message out through PR and you know, on the

472
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,920
Speaker 5: on the on the wires or on the magazines, et cetera.

473
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 3: And don't think it makes a massive difference, all.

474
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: Right, Hector. Last question is when we like to end

475
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: with what is your favorite et F ticker other than

476
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 1: any that you're affiliated with.

477
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 5: That's that's awful because we've we've I think we've got

478
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 5: the best forever Yoda, which.

479
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 4: Is you have Yoda.

480
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: I saw that there's another one over in Europe, Jedi.

481
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 2: They've got Jedi's.

482
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,919
Speaker 3: Stalled after us. After rules we've got, we've got Yoda.

483
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 5: And then for our we've just done a defense et

484
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,120
Speaker 5: F which we've got NATO, which I really like NATO as.

485
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 3: Well, which is pretty cool.

486
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 5: But but I think I actually if I can go

487
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 5: back to one that's not mine currently, which is with Elgin.

488
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 5: But I did actually trade in the first place, which

489
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 5: was two times leverage foot see, which is look to

490
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,639
Speaker 5: l u K two, and then the two times shorts

491
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 5: footee was suck to, which I think look to and

492
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 5: stuck to is pretty cool.

493
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 3: There they're good sickens.

494
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 1: I like this, all right, Hector Vino, thanks so much

495
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 1: for joining us on Trillions.

496
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, guys appreciate it.

497
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. You can

498
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

499
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 1: or wherever else.

500
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 3: You'd like to listen.

501
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter. I'm

502
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: at Joel Webbers Show, He's at Eric Boltuna's. This episode

503
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson.

504
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 3: Bye