Speaker 1: Good morning, keeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with
Speaker 1: Me your Girl, Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker, Folks,
Speaker 1: Witnessing the real time militarized assault on students on Columbia
Speaker 1: University and UCLA's campus has me absolutely filled with rage
Speaker 1: to see militarized police thugs show more aggression and brutality
Speaker 1: against peaceful anti war protesters as opposed to those that
Speaker 1: stormed our capitol building that brought zip ties and smoke
Speaker 1: bombs and bare spray and build a fucking guillotine. Those
Speaker 1: motherfuckers were allowed to go home, go home and post
Speaker 1: on social media talking about their victory of stalling our
Speaker 1: electoral process. They're being hailed as heroes, as patriots. But
Speaker 1: what we have seen not only in the last few weeks,
Speaker 1: but also in the last several decades of this country
Speaker 1: is that whenever black and brown people and young people
Speaker 1: utilize their voice, exercise their right to assemble to protests,
Speaker 1: to disrupt injustice, to disrupt genocide, police brutality, they're labeled
Speaker 1: as monsters and they're beaten and they're brutalized, and they're jailed.
Speaker 1: But white supremacist boy with tiki torches, yelling all kinds
Speaker 1: of explicitives. Oh no, we don't want to escalate the problem,
Speaker 1: so we just let them be. Tell me again about
Speaker 1: how white supremacists and police are not one and the same.
Speaker 1: Tell me again about the fact that we disperse in
Speaker 1: this country, our excess militarized gear to the police to
Speaker 1: brutalize citizens. You know what we could do with the
Speaker 1: excess that the fucking military is given. Oh, I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe actually invested back into this country in terms of infrastructure, education, healthcare,
Speaker 1: safe drinking water. But no, we don't do that. I'm
Speaker 1: so fucking tired of America. I got to tell you that.
Speaker 1: You know, I know that we're not even through this week,
Speaker 1: but I am through with this current administration. I am
Speaker 1: through with this fucking country and its hypocrisy and it's bullshit.
Speaker 1: And look, folks, I know that I vascilate because I'm
Speaker 1: a full and complete human being with a lot of complex,
Speaker 1: layered emotions like all of us are. But this week,
Speaker 1: Fuck Biden is how I feel. At the same time,
Speaker 1: you know, a Time magazine article comes out where Donald
Speaker 1: Trump lays out exactly what he plans to do with
Speaker 1: this country in a second term, and how the people
Speaker 1: that are around him. Oh, they're not like the fucking
Speaker 1: dummies of the first administration. No, they're rocked and ready
Speaker 1: to go, ready to monitor women's pregnancies and mental cycles,
Speaker 1: ready to throw undocumented or anybody that has brown skin
Speaker 1: or black skin, and detention centers, ready to depoort eleven
Speaker 1: million people. You know, somebody said to me that where
Speaker 1: we are right now is the Sophie's choice of fucking democracy,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, what are we choosing here, Choosing
Speaker 1: to continue to fund a fucking genocide with our tax dollars,
Speaker 1: choosing to overlook the mountain of war crimes that are
Speaker 1: being committed by Israel against the people of Gaza, looking
Speaker 1: away at the way in which this current administration wants
Speaker 1: to try and placate young people by also criminalizing them,
Speaker 1: placate them with Oh, I'm going to change the identification
Speaker 1: of marijuana. You know, I'm going to downgrade it so
Speaker 1: that it can be used for research purposes. Oh, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna relieve some student loan debt. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I don't want you to advocate for yourselves. I don't
Speaker 1: want you to have the right to protest at the
Speaker 1: same time, I'm going to completely ignore the mounting calls
Speaker 1: for a ceasefire, for some conditions to be placed on
Speaker 1: the fucking aid and bombs that you're sending over. You know,
Speaker 1: I am out of place, folks, where I do believe
Speaker 1: that Biden is going to lose this election. And it
Speaker 1: isn't going to be because Donald Trump and the MAGA
Speaker 1: folks have stolen the election. It's gonna be because every
Speaker 1: single decision that this administration is making is throwing away
Speaker 1: this fucking election. It isn't gonna be enough to just
Speaker 1: point to Donald Trump and say like, oh, he's worse.
Speaker 1: It isn't going to be enough to legalize marijuana when
Speaker 1: you have tens of thousands of black and brown people
Speaker 1: still serving out fucking jail time because of the maximum
Speaker 1: minimum sentences while white people put up fucking you know,
Speaker 1: weed stands on every other fucking street and it's turned
Speaker 1: into a billion dollar industry while black and brown people
Speaker 1: are still in jail. Miss me with it. I'm tired,
Speaker 1: you know, And I've been talking to so many different
Speaker 1: groups of people that I know that are trying to
Speaker 1: figure out where they're going to go and what they
Speaker 1: are going to do if Donald Trump wins, because this
Speaker 1: country will not be safe. And the speed at which
Speaker 1: everything will shift and go dark, folks, you can't even
Speaker 1: fucking imagine, because they are ready to rock on day
Speaker 1: one of a Trump administration. By the time that we
Speaker 1: would make it to the first one hundred days, I
Speaker 1: can't even explain to you what America would look like
Speaker 1: because the sci fi fucking thrillers that are out there
Speaker 1: will not do their dark vision of cruelty in America service.
Speaker 1: But what do we do? Because in good consciousness, my
Speaker 1: job is to wake people up? Right, So I am,
Speaker 1: I am. I'm consistently on high alert and on an alarm,
Speaker 1: and I cannot swallow the deaths of thirty seven thousand
Speaker 1: plus people. I can't swallow the starvation. I can't swallow
Speaker 1: the hypocrisy that is happening. When Putin does something, it's
Speaker 1: a war crime because y'all don't like him. But when
Speaker 1: Netanyahu does it, oh, it's necessary. What the fuck? Why
Speaker 1: do we have rules of engagement to begin with? If
Speaker 1: you allow Israel to do whatever the fuck it wants.
Speaker 1: And I'm tired of being told that I'm not allowed
Speaker 1: to critique this country that is off the fucking deep end.
Speaker 1: These people are nuts, and several years from now, folks
Speaker 1: who will be turning around being like, oh, well, we
Speaker 1: didn't know. How the fuck could you say that you
Speaker 1: didn't know? It's on every screen? Whose life matters? As
Speaker 1: a black, queer woman in these United States? In this world,
Speaker 1: I know all too well whose lives matter. It ain't mine.
Speaker 1: It ain't the Palestinians, it ain't Muslims, it ain't women,
Speaker 1: it ain't queer people. So, folks, we are living on
Speaker 1: top of their tinderbox. And if the treatment of these
Speaker 1: young anti war college protesters are in any inclination, I
Speaker 1: believe that we are headed into the summer of nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty eight, and I, for one, am absolutely terrified about
Speaker 1: what is to come. And I can't pretend that I
Speaker 1: think that we're going to be able to fight this off.
Speaker 1: I really can't, because I know how I am vacillating
Speaker 1: back and forth. I know ultimately I'm going to be
Speaker 1: forced to make the Sophie's choice of Biden. But I
Speaker 1: don't know how many people living in Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan,
Speaker 1: you know, the only states that matter, are going to
Speaker 1: join me in that decision. We will see coming up
Speaker 1: next my difficult conversation this week with our friend doctor
Speaker 1: Jonathan Metzel as we partn parcel out what is happening
Speaker 1: in Israel and Gaza. Folks. You know that whenever we
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to chat with our in house doctor,
Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzel, I am always thrilled and welcome back, Jonathan.
Speaker 1: You were out last week or the week before. I
Speaker 1: don't even know what day it is for a passover,
Speaker 1: so I'm glad that you had time with your family
Speaker 1: and welcome back to the madness. I hope that you
Speaker 1: were able to take a break.
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel unleavened and totally relaxed. So great.
Speaker 1: So here's where I want to begin. You, my friend,
Speaker 1: are a professor among many of the hats and titles
Speaker 1: that you wear, and right now, colleges and universities across
Speaker 1: the country have created encampments, have set up protests to
Speaker 1: urge their universities and colleges to divest from Israel. And
Speaker 1: how I've been having this conversation is in a couple
Speaker 1: of ways. One is that to me, the overarching issue
Speaker 1: is not even about Israel and Gaza. The overarching issue
Speaker 1: is about what is happening to our colleges and universities
Speaker 1: and the way in which our free speech right to
Speaker 1: assemble issues that are at the core of our democracy
Speaker 1: are being challenged, as well as watching the complete and
Speaker 1: total militarization of police and the handling that is happening
Speaker 1: at the hands of police and administrators. I want to
Speaker 1: get your thoughts and then I want to get into
Speaker 1: the conversation with how this is being shown through mainstream media,
Speaker 1: how it is differing depending on what outlets you are
Speaker 1: using and going towards, and just your overall feelings. As
Speaker 1: a professor that is working all the time. I'm you
Speaker 1: know with this generation.
Speaker 2: Who all right, Well, I'm going to give I'm going
Speaker 2: to give do you mind if I give four possible
Speaker 2: avenues for us to go down, and then we can
Speaker 2: choose which one we want to go down. Okay, so
Speaker 2: number one would be the forty thousand feet issue, which
Speaker 2: I think you've thought about, which is, let's think first
Speaker 2: about the context before we get into the content. But
Speaker 2: the think how just think about this moment where education
Speaker 2: is such a battleground in so many ways, right, this
Speaker 2: protest is happening in the aftermath of attacks on DEI
Speaker 2: and attacks on libraries and attacks on school boards and
Speaker 2: all these kind of things. And so I guess question
Speaker 2: number one, avenue number one we can do go to
Speaker 2: all these is what's the bigger story about education that's
Speaker 2: happening right now? Like why education right now? And what
Speaker 2: are we fighting about, Like why is education in the
Speaker 2: lead up to twenty twenty four, in the aftermath of
Speaker 2: the pandemic, in the seven days before we all get
Speaker 2: wiped out by the bird flu? What is it about
Speaker 2: education right now? That that is where we're having these fights.
Speaker 2: And so I don't think you can before you get
Speaker 2: into the actual contact, because I agree with you, many
Speaker 2: bigger things are happening. Number one is just how interesting
Speaker 2: it is that this is all a part of a
Speaker 2: much bigger conversation we're having about freedom, about education, about
Speaker 2: things like that. So that will be number one. Number
Speaker 2: two is about the content a little bit. But I
Speaker 2: would say that in part, and I'm just going to
Speaker 2: say this because I'm a professor and I'm an administrator,
Speaker 2: and I will say that administrators, like students, have been
Speaker 2: trained in a particular way over the past decade or
Speaker 2: fifteen years or whatever, that they're going to clamp down
Speaker 2: on what any group perceives as hate speech, right, And
Speaker 2: so I think that part of the issue with this
Speaker 2: issue was administrators when they feel like, I mean, if
Speaker 2: you could just take any group, but the minute it
Speaker 2: started feeling like from the river to the sea, and
Speaker 2: then Jewish students started saying we're oppressed by this, Like
Speaker 2: administrators are almost like robotically programmed to clamp down on
Speaker 2: particular kinds of speech that some people find oppressive and
Speaker 2: other people don't. And so I'm not surprised that administrators.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think that they would be acting
Speaker 2: this way if it was about climate change. I really don't.
Speaker 2: But I do think that the fact that this is
Speaker 2: a divisive issue, where some people coin this as liberation
Speaker 2: and some people coin this as anti semitism or oppression,
Speaker 2: they're acting the way that they would if this was
Speaker 2: any other kind of speech that any group interpreted as
Speaker 2: hate speech. And so I think if this was racist
Speaker 2: or transphobic or anything like that, they would be doing
Speaker 2: the same thing. I think they're acting in that brain which.
Speaker 1: I'm going to agree to disagree, but keep going.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying I'm not saying about the response of
Speaker 2: calling in the police. I'm just saying why universities are
Speaker 2: not saying all speech is protected, because all speeches protected
Speaker 2: in less a group finds it offensive. Now, I'm not
Speaker 2: in any way justifying the response. I'm just explaining why
Speaker 2: I think universities are responding the way they are, which
Speaker 2: is that there is just a coding in universities about speech. Now,
Speaker 2: I'm not in any way justifying the cops or the
Speaker 2: arresting or anything like that, but i will say that
Speaker 2: I feel like that's kind of important to recognize when
Speaker 2: we think about why this has escalated. Point number three
Speaker 2: is what we might call the medanim You know, the
Speaker 2: metonym is a literary term for the part stands in
Speaker 2: for the whole, And so I understand, Like I was
Speaker 2: speaking with Antonia Helton, the NBC reporter this weekend, and
Speaker 2: she was reporting from the Columbia encampment, and she's like,
Speaker 2: it's totally crazy. Most of the protesters are peaceful, and
Speaker 2: it's a student group that's very multi everything, and then
Speaker 2: these small incidences of somebody smashing out the window with
Speaker 2: a hammer and stuff like that. That's what then goes viral,
Speaker 2: and I guess the question is what narrative are you
Speaker 2: going to believe, and where are you getting your source
Speaker 2: material and where do you get research. But it is interesting,
Speaker 2: like I was at the Vanderbilt protest when the reporter
Speaker 2: got arrested, for example, I was literally fifteen feet away
Speaker 2: when all that happened. There were nine thousand things happening,
Speaker 2: and it was just this tiny little thing where somebody
Speaker 2: screamed in a policeman's ear with a megaphone and he
Speaker 2: turned around and just arrested the first person he saw,
Speaker 2: which happened to be this reporter. And it's just if
Speaker 2: you were at the thing, you would think this thing
Speaker 2: wasn't a big deal at all. But then somebody filmed
Speaker 2: him getting arrested, and then it went viral, and then
Speaker 2: there were ten billion people, and then I got emails
Speaker 2: from everybody around the world. And so we live in
Speaker 2: a moment where what you capture on social media it
Speaker 2: just kind of becomes the reality. And so I guess
Speaker 2: question number three is if ten thousand people are being
Speaker 2: peaceful and one person does something that goes viral, that
Speaker 2: becomes the reality. And so the question is, how do
Speaker 2: you understand what's happening and what's a trusted source when
Speaker 2: all of social media is meant to invoke a response.
Speaker 2: And then I guess the fourth point really is the
Speaker 2: point I've been on the phone all morning with my
Speaker 2: friends in Israel about, which is this is really distracting
Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff, Like the bigger issue actually
Speaker 2: is the peace in the Middle East and stopping the
Speaker 2: war in Gaza and stuff like that. So in a way,
Speaker 2: like it, I guess I feel a little frustrated that
Speaker 2: this has become like this question of campus and anti Semitism.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it just it's frustrating because it feels
Speaker 2: like it's given people an off ramp toward talking about
Speaker 2: the real issue, which is like what are we going
Speaker 2: to do in real terms, about what are the real
Speaker 2: outcomes that are possible in the Middle East? And we're
Speaker 2: you know it just it's just been it's been frustrating
Speaker 2: because it's different. People are on my side playing the
Speaker 2: victim card when really this isn't just about anti Semitism.
Speaker 2: This is about the N'tonnaho government and all these other factors.
Speaker 2: So in a way, it's it's a real issue about campuses.
Speaker 2: Absolutely real issue, but the issue itself is also about
Speaker 2: the Middle East, which we kind of don't talk about
Speaker 2: sometimes when this becomes the focus. So those are my four.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to bounce around because I have a
Speaker 1: couple of things that I'm going to say that I
Speaker 1: don't think are going to be popular, but they're my opinion, so.
Speaker 2: Popular with me, anything you say is always pounce with me.
Speaker 1: So here's my first thing, because you ended with some
Speaker 1: people on your side claiming victimhood, right, and I want
Speaker 1: to talk about victimhood for a minute, because I think
Speaker 1: that what becomes incredibly frustrating for somebody that exists outside
Speaker 1: of the Jewish community is that it seems to me
Speaker 1: that over the last several months, any conversation that is
Speaker 1: about it, that is questioning the violent tactics that have
Speaker 1: been used and continue to be used pre October seventh
Speaker 1: and post October seventh, everything is couched in anti semitism.
Speaker 1: Every fucking critique, And I'm like, how do we get
Speaker 1: anywhere if I'm not allowed to critique a government because
Speaker 1: of the religion of the majority of the people inside
Speaker 1: of that government. And what I find incredibly fucking frustrating
Speaker 1: is that When you start doing that, then real anti
Speaker 1: Semitism that is on the rise and happening becomes ignored
Speaker 1: and watered down because everything can't be anti Semitism, Everything
Speaker 1: can not be fucking anti semitism and couch that way,
Speaker 1: because then nothing is, and we lose the seriousness of
Speaker 1: the violence and hate that is rising against a community
Speaker 1: of people if I can't actually critique things that are
Speaker 1: going wrong. So I'm trying to figure out how it
Speaker 1: is that I'm looking at people. I'm watching so many videos,
Speaker 1: and you're right, everything that does happen on social media
Speaker 1: is being magnified times a million, right, times a million views.
Speaker 2: I don't know how many how many times have you
Speaker 2: seen a video that's like, nothing happened today. We ate
Speaker 2: hot dogs and we'll see that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's tackle the first question around anti semitism, which
Speaker 1: is what all of what is happening at these college
Speaker 1: campuses is now being set up as college campuses are
Speaker 1: a hotbed of anti Semitism. And I'm like, what, so please.
Speaker 2: Answer that. Well, I'll give you a couple of ways
Speaker 2: into that, and we can do avenues down there. I
Speaker 2: apologize for something like a multiple choice test, but I'm
Speaker 2: obviously work out my own thoughts about this. So number
Speaker 2: one is really personal, which is the reason I'm a
Speaker 2: scholar of racism in my life is because I grew
Speaker 2: up with a dad who's a Holocaust survivor, who saw
Speaker 2: anti Semitism everywhere. He looked like if there wasn't a
Speaker 2: parking space when we'd go to the baseball game, he'd
Speaker 2: be like, Jews can't park anywhere, you know, something like like.
Speaker 2: That was his way of understanding the world was anti
Speaker 2: Semitism because my dad grew up Ninety of our family
Speaker 2: were murdered in Holocaust, and my dad and my grandparents escaped,
Speaker 2: and it just became his lens right that. And in
Speaker 2: a way, when you start to see a lens of
Speaker 2: a structure that is meant for you to be oppressed,
Speaker 2: that's kind of how you see the world now. I
Speaker 2: I for me, obviously, I've brought in fact I hardly
Speaker 2: ever think about anti semitism, and I haven't really thought
Speaker 2: about it that much before six months ago. But I
Speaker 2: can see how when that becomes your response to a threat,
Speaker 2: it just becomes very pervasive. We're under attack, it must
Speaker 2: be our group, bust may under attack. And so it's
Speaker 2: a very automatic reflex for people with histories of trauma
Speaker 2: like the Holocaust or slavery or other kinds of things
Speaker 2: to go to that narrative and not and foreclose other narratives.
Speaker 2: And so part of the story is, I mean, I
Speaker 2: obviously disagree with the idea that everything's being anti Semitism.
Speaker 2: And my fourth point was like calling an anti Semitism
Speaker 2: makes it harder to see how you're the aggressor as
Speaker 2: well as the victim. But I guess part of that
Speaker 2: is just to say that that when that becomes the worldview,
Speaker 2: that becomes people's kind of go to response in ways
Speaker 2: that any challenges like this, and I think you know
Speaker 2: you and I've talked about this a lot, there are
Speaker 2: some basic foundational things about these tests that are like
Speaker 2: existentially terrifying for people who are Jewish, right, And so
Speaker 2: the idea that you know, even from the river to
Speaker 2: the sea, Like everybody's like, well, what's the big deal
Speaker 2: from the river to the sea, but that is basically
Speaker 2: something that's very very it's just seen as kind of
Speaker 2: an existential terror. The idea that basically people would overturn
Speaker 2: the state of Israel, and things like that, and so
Speaker 2: in a way that's kind of become the go to,
Speaker 2: which becomes generalizable. And again, part of the issue, this
Speaker 2: is kind of the research I do, is that when
Speaker 2: you're always saying you're the victim, you're not seeing how
Speaker 2: you're the aggressor. And so in a way, there also
Speaker 2: is a psychology of getting yourself off the hook of
Speaker 2: being part of the problem as well as being part
Speaker 2: of the solution. So I think that's part of it.
Speaker 2: Is just this is how people with historical trauma act,
Speaker 2: And I think that's an important point. But I guess
Speaker 2: the other, probably more important point for me is that
Speaker 2: there have been Israelis who don't see the world that
Speaker 2: way in the streets protesting against the Natanyahu government for
Speaker 2: a year before October seventh, and we're saying exactly the
Speaker 2: same things that you just said to me in your question.
Speaker 2: Israelis don't feel that way. I mean, I've been on
Speaker 2: the phone with people all morning and they're like supporting
Speaker 2: the protesters here and want their government to be overturned
Speaker 2: and all these kind of things. And so in a way,
Speaker 2: I think what you're talking about is American Judaism in
Speaker 2: a way more than Israeli Judaism. That's my personal sense.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm talking. I have no context with which to
Speaker 1: talk about Israeli Judaism because I have only been to
Speaker 1: Israel once, right, and I've had one, you know, one
Speaker 1: week long experience with visiting the Kanesset and different leaders,
Speaker 1: you know. So when I'm talking, I'm talking specifically through
Speaker 1: the lens of what is happening on college campuses, through
Speaker 1: the vantage point of mainstream media labeling protest, every single
Speaker 1: protest and objection to the continuation of a genocide as
Speaker 1: anti Semitism. Now, what I will say is that the
Speaker 1: other piece that I find incredibly troubling is that this
Speaker 1: is all cyclical to me. Yeah, right. There has never
Speaker 1: been a student movement in our history, in our modern history,
Speaker 1: that has been looked at favorably as it is happening. Never,
Speaker 1: not one fucking time. I don't care if it was
Speaker 1: peaceful to sit in at the lunch counters when folks
Speaker 1: were doing that and being beaten and lynched and murdered
Speaker 1: and all of these things, and when people were barricading
Speaker 1: themselves in during the Vietnam War on the very same campus, right,
Speaker 1: And so these student protests are never looked upon favorably
Speaker 1: in protests, is never looked upon favorably, particularly in countries
Speaker 1: that quote unquote care about democracy, because there will always
Speaker 1: be a group that says that it's not the right
Speaker 1: way to protest. Then tell me fucking how, Because if
Speaker 1: it's not a sit in, if it's not being peaceful,
Speaker 1: if it is now having to take responsibility for every
Speaker 1: single other individual outside of Columbia University and inside of
Speaker 1: the campus, you tell me the right way to push
Speaker 1: back against oppression. Right, So this becomes again this US
Speaker 1: against them. You know this isn't right. They don't know
Speaker 1: what they're talking about. And I'm just like, so, who
Speaker 1: does the people that are sending twenty four billion dollars
Speaker 1: to continue the murder of women and children? Like this
Speaker 1: is just I don't I guess I get to a
Speaker 1: point where I'm just like, we're never going to get
Speaker 1: to a place of what is quote unquote right when
Speaker 1: people outrage is never received in a sincere way and
Speaker 1: when movements are particularly picked apart by the fringe elements. Right,
Speaker 1: So you see this one hammer that was breaking glass.
Speaker 1: I've seen it six times. I only had the television
Speaker 1: on for twenty minutes before I jumped on.
Speaker 2: And also, I mean there was a great piece I
Speaker 2: think it was Jonathan Chait this morning about how the
Speaker 2: people who are benefiting the most from the from this
Speaker 2: is Trump and Nitanyahu. Like, the more it can be
Speaker 2: seen as like extremist crazies, we're against the crazies, you know.
Speaker 2: I guess my hope, to be honest, is that, I
Speaker 2: mean I think this every week and then things seem
Speaker 2: to escalate. Is that I hope we're on the same
Speaker 2: side and we're just all talking past each other. That's
Speaker 2: my greatest hope, you know, because I don't like, I mean,
Speaker 2: you and I have talked about this idea of a
Speaker 2: polarizing crisis on this show a bunch, this idea that
Speaker 2: basically there is a strong coalition and then something happens
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden we're existentially divided. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'll just say, honestly, it's pretty weird having fought against
Speaker 2: injustice for my entire career to you know, now feel
Speaker 2: an activist and a target. And I mean I don't
Speaker 2: personally feel a target, but I'm just saying that, like
Speaker 2: if I just keep imagining, like like, it's just weird.
Speaker 2: To be Jewish right now. Honestly, he really is, And
Speaker 2: so what does it mean to like, I just feel
Speaker 2: like if this was some other group other than my own,
Speaker 2: maybe I would feel different, or maybe things would be
Speaker 2: easier or more clear cut. Like it's just I'm trying
Speaker 2: to kind of I'm trying to kind of walk a
Speaker 2: fine line in a certain way, which is I support protest,
Speaker 2: I support free expression, I'm against aggression. I've been against
Speaker 2: the natanya Who government for many, many, many years. And
Speaker 2: I also don't want to see the destruction of Israel,
Speaker 2: which I feel like Nitaya Who is kind of messianically
Speaker 2: bringing into being. And so it's just a very fine line.
Speaker 2: And so people like me are talking like I'm talking
Speaker 2: right now, which is a little bit vague and a
Speaker 2: little bit over intellectualized because it's it's just a strange
Speaker 2: moment to be. You know, you want to be part
Speaker 2: of the group fighting against injustice, and you're also that
Speaker 2: feel like you're I mean, when you see those hammer
Speaker 2: pictures in the window, it feels very personal, Like it
Speaker 2: feels very very personal.
Speaker 1: Here's what I will say to that. I am black
Speaker 1: and queer, and have been black and queer. My entire life.
Speaker 1: I have watched I don't know how many videos of
Speaker 1: black men, women and children being gunned down, shot choked
Speaker 1: to death, and I'm just supposed to go ahead and
Speaker 1: like carry on with my life. I've witnessed five hundred
Speaker 1: anti LGBTQ bills just in the last year come into
Speaker 1: being to question, like my existence as a queer person
Speaker 1: and the ability to live free inside of this country.
Speaker 1: Of course, I understand what it is like to live
Speaker 1: in a body that you actually can at at any
Speaker 1: time or what have you change other people's outside perspectives
Speaker 1: of whether or not you are a danger, a threat
Speaker 1: of this or that. And so that being said and understood,
Speaker 1: when I see peaceful protests that started as you know
Speaker 1: BLM marching down the street, and then at other times
Speaker 1: it burst into a CVS or a Wendy's going up
Speaker 1: in flames, I understand both. I understand both the act
Speaker 1: of destruction right of just so much how much more
Speaker 1: do you want people to take? How much more killing
Speaker 1: do you want people to be able to ingest before
Speaker 1: they explode? And then I also understand the people that
Speaker 1: are able to march peacefully, able to sit at the
Speaker 1: policy tables and try and figure out ways to change things.
Speaker 1: Humans are complex, like, we have a lot of emotions
Speaker 1: and a lot of feelings and a lot of angst,
Speaker 1: particularly those that are from historically marginalized and oppressed and
Speaker 1: abused groups. There is never going to be a neat
Speaker 1: solution for murderous problems. And if we can't come I
Speaker 1: guess my feeling is, if we can't come to the
Speaker 1: table and agree on what is morally right and morally wrong,
Speaker 1: then we will never get anywhere and the killing will
Speaker 1: just persist.
Speaker 2: You know, again, I've said this avention here, but my
Speaker 2: first that's beautifully said, thank you, and I completely agree,
Speaker 2: and I could not agree more. I guess for me, like,
Speaker 2: because I've worked so long with the Israeli left, I
Speaker 2: feel like there's such a natural alliance between the American
Speaker 2: left and the Israeli left about so many things we're
Speaker 2: talking about here, except for the existence of the country.
Speaker 2: And so my frustration is kind of working on both
Speaker 2: sides of this issue, that there are so many people
Speaker 2: saying very similar things. I mean, I've got friends in
Speaker 2: Israel whose kids are going to be jailed for refusing
Speaker 2: to be in the army if they invade rafa and
Speaker 2: things like that, Like there are a lot of people
Speaker 2: relatively wanting the same thing who are sitting at that
Speaker 2: lunch counter. I completely agree with that, But there are
Speaker 2: a lot of people who also benefit from playing that
Speaker 2: hammer video ninety million times, so that you kind of
Speaker 2: conflate that with everything, and so in a way, it
Speaker 2: just takes it just takes a lot to kind of
Speaker 2: maintain that. And in a way, you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: just such a moment because you know, on one hand,
Speaker 2: we're shaking up the entire world, and some people would
Speaker 2: say the ends justify the means, but it also is
Speaker 2: terrifying because you don't know like where this is all going.
Speaker 2: And so I agree with you that, I think that's
Speaker 2: very well said, and I hope I hope that they
Speaker 2: I hope at the end of the day we end
Speaker 2: up getting back to that lunch counter and making some
Speaker 2: some real change.
Speaker 1: I hope that our time that we spend together as
Speaker 1: this persists, Jonathan, can become a place for honest and
Speaker 1: really you know, continued, really tough conversations and honest and
Speaker 1: honest ones. Because I think that if we try to
Speaker 1: find ways to intellectualize things that just honestly don't warrant
Speaker 1: that level, you know, Like, I don't want people to
Speaker 1: turn away from this issue because they say that it's
Speaker 1: too complex, because they're not historians, because they're not the
Speaker 1: political elite, and so oh, I have no space to have,
Speaker 1: you know, this conversation because I'm not Jewish, or because
Speaker 1: you know I'm you know, because I'm not Muslim. Because
Speaker 1: I want people to understand that, like, we need to
Speaker 1: get back to a place to where we can agree
Speaker 1: on what is right and what is wrong. We have
Speaker 1: rules of war for a reason, right, and when those
Speaker 1: rules of war are broken, right, like, then if that
Speaker 1: is just going to be the way, then the whole
Speaker 1: world will fall into chaos, which is where I honestly
Speaker 1: think that we are now and why things are so
Speaker 1: radically out of whack.
Speaker 2: I agree one million percent as always, and I would
Speaker 2: also add to that though you know, I could be
Speaker 2: wrong because you don't know. The Israel government is being
Speaker 2: written by messi anicists, like people who want to see
Speaker 2: the end of days, kind of similar to people here.
Speaker 2: But there is a very real chance that there actually
Speaker 2: will be a ceasefire. And so the question is if
Speaker 2: there is a cease fire what it's also kind of
Speaker 2: if there is a ceasefire, what then does the protest
Speaker 2: movement do? So I do think that there are questions
Speaker 2: about all of this, but I also think that there
Speaker 2: is a not zero chance that the protests are going
Speaker 2: to get one of their main stipulations, and then the
Speaker 2: question is kind of what's the next phase? Right?
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely well, we'll leave it there today, My friends,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, as you do every week and
Speaker 1: engaging in really difficult conversation at a really unprecedented times.
Speaker 1: We appreciate you. That is it for me today, dear
Speaker 1: friends on Woke af AS always, power to the people
Speaker 1: and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay
Speaker 1: woke as fuck.