1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Good morning, keeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: Me your Girl, Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker, Folks, 3 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: Witnessing the real time militarized assault on students on Columbia 4 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: University and UCLA's campus has me absolutely filled with rage 5 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: to see militarized police thugs show more aggression and brutality 6 00:00:53,720 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: against peaceful anti war protesters as opposed to those that 7 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: stormed our capitol building that brought zip ties and smoke 8 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: bombs and bare spray and build a fucking guillotine. Those 9 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: motherfuckers were allowed to go home, go home and post 10 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: on social media talking about their victory of stalling our 11 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: electoral process. They're being hailed as heroes, as patriots. But 12 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: what we have seen not only in the last few weeks, 13 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: but also in the last several decades of this country 14 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: is that whenever black and brown people and young people 15 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: utilize their voice, exercise their right to assemble to protests, 16 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: to disrupt injustice, to disrupt genocide, police brutality, they're labeled 17 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: as monsters and they're beaten and they're brutalized, and they're jailed. 18 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: But white supremacist boy with tiki torches, yelling all kinds 19 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: of explicitives. Oh no, we don't want to escalate the problem, 20 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: so we just let them be. Tell me again about 21 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: how white supremacists and police are not one and the same. 22 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: Tell me again about the fact that we disperse in 23 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: this country, our excess militarized gear to the police to 24 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: brutalize citizens. You know what we could do with the 25 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: excess that the fucking military is given. Oh, I don't know, 26 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: maybe actually invested back into this country in terms of infrastructure, education, healthcare, 27 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:20,679 Speaker 1: safe drinking water. But no, we don't do that. I'm 28 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: so fucking tired of America. I got to tell you that. 29 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: You know, I know that we're not even through this week, 30 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: but I am through with this current administration. I am 31 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: through with this fucking country and its hypocrisy and it's bullshit. 32 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: And look, folks, I know that I vascilate because I'm 33 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: a full and complete human being with a lot of complex, 34 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: layered emotions like all of us are. But this week, 35 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: Fuck Biden is how I feel. At the same time, 36 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: you know, a Time magazine article comes out where Donald 37 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: Trump lays out exactly what he plans to do with 38 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: this country in a second term, and how the people 39 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: that are around him. Oh, they're not like the fucking 40 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: dummies of the first administration. No, they're rocked and ready 41 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: to go, ready to monitor women's pregnancies and mental cycles, 42 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: ready to throw undocumented or anybody that has brown skin 43 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 1: or black skin, and detention centers, ready to depoort eleven 44 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: million people. You know, somebody said to me that where 45 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: we are right now is the Sophie's choice of fucking democracy, 46 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: which is, you know, what are we choosing here, Choosing 47 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: to continue to fund a fucking genocide with our tax dollars, 48 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: choosing to overlook the mountain of war crimes that are 49 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: being committed by Israel against the people of Gaza, looking 50 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: away at the way in which this current administration wants 51 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: to try and placate young people by also criminalizing them, 52 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: placate them with Oh, I'm going to change the identification 53 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: of marijuana. You know, I'm going to downgrade it so 54 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: that it can be used for research purposes. Oh, I'm 55 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,559 Speaker 1: gonna relieve some student loan debt. But at the same time, 56 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: I don't want you to advocate for yourselves. I don't 57 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: want you to have the right to protest at the 58 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: same time, I'm going to completely ignore the mounting calls 59 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: for a ceasefire, for some conditions to be placed on 60 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: the fucking aid and bombs that you're sending over. You know, 61 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: I am out of place, folks, where I do believe 62 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: that Biden is going to lose this election. And it 63 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: isn't going to be because Donald Trump and the MAGA 64 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: folks have stolen the election. It's gonna be because every 65 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: single decision that this administration is making is throwing away 66 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: this fucking election. It isn't gonna be enough to just 67 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: point to Donald Trump and say like, oh, he's worse. 68 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: It isn't going to be enough to legalize marijuana when 69 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: you have tens of thousands of black and brown people 70 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: still serving out fucking jail time because of the maximum 71 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: minimum sentences while white people put up fucking you know, 72 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,559 Speaker 1: weed stands on every other fucking street and it's turned 73 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: into a billion dollar industry while black and brown people 74 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: are still in jail. Miss me with it. I'm tired, 75 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, And I've been talking to so many different 76 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: groups of people that I know that are trying to 77 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: figure out where they're going to go and what they 78 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: are going to do if Donald Trump wins, because this 79 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: country will not be safe. And the speed at which 80 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: everything will shift and go dark, folks, you can't even 81 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: fucking imagine, because they are ready to rock on day 82 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: one of a Trump administration. By the time that we 83 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: would make it to the first one hundred days, I 84 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: can't even explain to you what America would look like 85 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: because the sci fi fucking thrillers that are out there 86 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: will not do their dark vision of cruelty in America service. 87 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: But what do we do? Because in good consciousness, my 88 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: job is to wake people up? Right, So I am, 89 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: I am. I'm consistently on high alert and on an alarm, 90 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: and I cannot swallow the deaths of thirty seven thousand 91 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: plus people. I can't swallow the starvation. I can't swallow 92 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: the hypocrisy that is happening. When Putin does something, it's 93 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: a war crime because y'all don't like him. But when 94 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: Netanyahu does it, oh, it's necessary. What the fuck? Why 95 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: do we have rules of engagement to begin with? If 96 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: you allow Israel to do whatever the fuck it wants. 97 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: And I'm tired of being told that I'm not allowed 98 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: to critique this country that is off the fucking deep end. 99 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: These people are nuts, and several years from now, folks 100 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: who will be turning around being like, oh, well, we 101 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: didn't know. How the fuck could you say that you 102 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: didn't know? It's on every screen? Whose life matters? As 103 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: a black, queer woman in these United States? In this world, 104 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: I know all too well whose lives matter. It ain't mine. 105 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: It ain't the Palestinians, it ain't Muslims, it ain't women, 106 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: it ain't queer people. So, folks, we are living on 107 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: top of their tinderbox. And if the treatment of these 108 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: young anti war college protesters are in any inclination, I 109 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: believe that we are headed into the summer of nineteen 110 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: sixty eight, and I, for one, am absolutely terrified about 111 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: what is to come. And I can't pretend that I 112 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: think that we're going to be able to fight this off. 113 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: I really can't, because I know how I am vacillating 114 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: back and forth. I know ultimately I'm going to be 115 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: forced to make the Sophie's choice of Biden. But I 116 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: don't know how many people living in Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, 117 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, the only states that matter, are going to 118 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: join me in that decision. We will see coming up 119 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: next my difficult conversation this week with our friend doctor 120 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: Jonathan Metzel as we partn parcel out what is happening 121 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: in Israel and Gaza. Folks. You know that whenever we 122 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: have the opportunity to chat with our in house doctor, 123 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzel, I am always thrilled and welcome back, Jonathan. 124 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: You were out last week or the week before. I 125 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: don't even know what day it is for a passover, 126 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: so I'm glad that you had time with your family 127 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the madness. I hope that you 128 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: were able to take a break. 129 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I feel unleavened and totally relaxed. So great. 130 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: So here's where I want to begin. You, my friend, 131 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: are a professor among many of the hats and titles 132 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: that you wear, and right now, colleges and universities across 133 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: the country have created encampments, have set up protests to 134 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: urge their universities and colleges to divest from Israel. And 135 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: how I've been having this conversation is in a couple 136 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: of ways. One is that to me, the overarching issue 137 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: is not even about Israel and Gaza. The overarching issue 138 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: is about what is happening to our colleges and universities 139 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: and the way in which our free speech right to 140 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 1: assemble issues that are at the core of our democracy 141 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: are being challenged, as well as watching the complete and 142 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: total militarization of police and the handling that is happening 143 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: at the hands of police and administrators. I want to 144 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: get your thoughts and then I want to get into 145 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: the conversation with how this is being shown through mainstream media, 146 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: how it is differing depending on what outlets you are 147 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: using and going towards, and just your overall feelings. As 148 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: a professor that is working all the time. I'm you 149 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: know with this generation. 150 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: Who all right, Well, I'm going to give I'm going 151 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: to give do you mind if I give four possible 152 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: avenues for us to go down, and then we can 153 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: choose which one we want to go down. Okay, so 154 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: number one would be the forty thousand feet issue, which 155 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: I think you've thought about, which is, let's think first 156 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: about the context before we get into the content. But 157 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 2: the think how just think about this moment where education 158 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: is such a battleground in so many ways, right, this 159 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: protest is happening in the aftermath of attacks on DEI 160 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 2: and attacks on libraries and attacks on school boards and 161 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 2: all these kind of things. And so I guess question 162 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: number one, avenue number one we can do go to 163 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: all these is what's the bigger story about education that's 164 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: happening right now? Like why education right now? And what 165 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 2: are we fighting about, Like why is education in the 166 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: lead up to twenty twenty four, in the aftermath of 167 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: the pandemic, in the seven days before we all get 168 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: wiped out by the bird flu? What is it about 169 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: education right now? That that is where we're having these fights. 170 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,719 Speaker 2: And so I don't think you can before you get 171 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: into the actual contact, because I agree with you, many 172 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: bigger things are happening. Number one is just how interesting 173 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: it is that this is all a part of a 174 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: much bigger conversation we're having about freedom, about education, about 175 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: things like that. So that will be number one. Number 176 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: two is about the content a little bit. But I 177 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: would say that in part, and I'm just going to 178 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: say this because I'm a professor and I'm an administrator, 179 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: and I will say that administrators, like students, have been 180 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 2: trained in a particular way over the past decade or 181 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: fifteen years or whatever, that they're going to clamp down 182 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: on what any group perceives as hate speech, right, And 183 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: so I think that part of the issue with this 184 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: issue was administrators when they feel like, I mean, if 185 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: you could just take any group, but the minute it 186 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: started feeling like from the river to the sea, and 187 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: then Jewish students started saying we're oppressed by this, Like 188 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: administrators are almost like robotically programmed to clamp down on 189 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: particular kinds of speech that some people find oppressive and 190 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: other people don't. And so I'm not surprised that administrators. 191 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think that they would be acting 192 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: this way if it was about climate change. I really don't. 193 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: But I do think that the fact that this is 194 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: a divisive issue, where some people coin this as liberation 195 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: and some people coin this as anti semitism or oppression, 196 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: they're acting the way that they would if this was 197 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: any other kind of speech that any group interpreted as 198 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: hate speech. And so I think if this was racist 199 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: or transphobic or anything like that, they would be doing 200 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: the same thing. I think they're acting in that brain which. 201 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to agree to disagree, but keep going. 202 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: I'm not saying I'm not saying about the response of 203 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: calling in the police. I'm just saying why universities are 204 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: not saying all speech is protected, because all speeches protected 205 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: in less a group finds it offensive. Now, I'm not 206 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: in any way justifying the response. I'm just explaining why 207 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: I think universities are responding the way they are, which 208 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: is that there is just a coding in universities about speech. Now, 209 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: I'm not in any way justifying the cops or the 210 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: arresting or anything like that, but i will say that 211 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 2: I feel like that's kind of important to recognize when 212 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: we think about why this has escalated. Point number three 213 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: is what we might call the medanim You know, the 214 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: metonym is a literary term for the part stands in 215 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: for the whole, And so I understand, Like I was 216 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: speaking with Antonia Helton, the NBC reporter this weekend, and 217 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: she was reporting from the Columbia encampment, and she's like, 218 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: it's totally crazy. Most of the protesters are peaceful, and 219 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 2: it's a student group that's very multi everything, and then 220 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: these small incidences of somebody smashing out the window with 221 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 2: a hammer and stuff like that. That's what then goes viral, 222 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 2: and I guess the question is what narrative are you 223 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: going to believe, and where are you getting your source 224 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: material and where do you get research. But it is interesting, 225 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: like I was at the Vanderbilt protest when the reporter 226 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 2: got arrested, for example, I was literally fifteen feet away 227 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 2: when all that happened. There were nine thousand things happening, 228 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: and it was just this tiny little thing where somebody 229 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 2: screamed in a policeman's ear with a megaphone and he 230 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: turned around and just arrested the first person he saw, 231 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: which happened to be this reporter. And it's just if 232 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 2: you were at the thing, you would think this thing 233 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: wasn't a big deal at all. But then somebody filmed 234 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 2: him getting arrested, and then it went viral, and then 235 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 2: there were ten billion people, and then I got emails 236 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 2: from everybody around the world. And so we live in 237 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 2: a moment where what you capture on social media it 238 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 2: just kind of becomes the reality. And so I guess 239 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 2: question number three is if ten thousand people are being 240 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 2: peaceful and one person does something that goes viral, that 241 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 2: becomes the reality. And so the question is, how do 242 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: you understand what's happening and what's a trusted source when 243 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 2: all of social media is meant to invoke a response. 244 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 2: And then I guess the fourth point really is the 245 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: point I've been on the phone all morning with my 246 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: friends in Israel about, which is this is really distracting 247 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff, Like the bigger issue actually 248 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: is the peace in the Middle East and stopping the 249 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 2: war in Gaza and stuff like that. So in a way, 250 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: like it, I guess I feel a little frustrated that 251 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: this has become like this question of campus and anti Semitism. 252 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 2: I don't know, it just it's frustrating because it feels 253 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 2: like it's given people an off ramp toward talking about 254 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: the real issue, which is like what are we going 255 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: to do in real terms, about what are the real 256 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 2: outcomes that are possible in the Middle East? And we're 257 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 2: you know it just it's just been it's been frustrating 258 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: because it's different. People are on my side playing the 259 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 2: victim card when really this isn't just about anti Semitism. 260 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 2: This is about the N'tonnaho government and all these other factors. 261 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 2: So in a way, it's it's a real issue about campuses. 262 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely real issue, but the issue itself is also about 263 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 2: the Middle East, which we kind of don't talk about 264 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 2: sometimes when this becomes the focus. So those are my four. 265 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to bounce around because I have a 266 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: couple of things that I'm going to say that I 267 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: don't think are going to be popular, but they're my opinion, so. 268 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: Popular with me, anything you say is always pounce with me. 269 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: So here's my first thing, because you ended with some 270 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: people on your side claiming victimhood, right, and I want 271 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: to talk about victimhood for a minute, because I think 272 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: that what becomes incredibly frustrating for somebody that exists outside 273 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: of the Jewish community is that it seems to me 274 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: that over the last several months, any conversation that is 275 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: about it, that is questioning the violent tactics that have 276 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: been used and continue to be used pre October seventh 277 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: and post October seventh, everything is couched in anti semitism. 278 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: Every fucking critique, And I'm like, how do we get 279 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: anywhere if I'm not allowed to critique a government because 280 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: of the religion of the majority of the people inside 281 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: of that government. And what I find incredibly fucking frustrating 282 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: is that When you start doing that, then real anti 283 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: Semitism that is on the rise and happening becomes ignored 284 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:59,719 Speaker 1: and watered down because everything can't be anti Semitism, Everything 285 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: can not be fucking anti semitism and couch that way, 286 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,479 Speaker 1: because then nothing is, and we lose the seriousness of 287 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: the violence and hate that is rising against a community 288 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: of people if I can't actually critique things that are 289 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: going wrong. So I'm trying to figure out how it 290 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: is that I'm looking at people. I'm watching so many videos, 291 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: and you're right, everything that does happen on social media 292 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: is being magnified times a million, right, times a million views. 293 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: I don't know how many how many times have you 294 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: seen a video that's like, nothing happened today. We ate 295 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: hot dogs and we'll see that. 296 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's tackle the first question around anti semitism, which 297 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: is what all of what is happening at these college 298 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,479 Speaker 1: campuses is now being set up as college campuses are 299 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: a hotbed of anti Semitism. And I'm like, what, so please. 300 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 2: Answer that. Well, I'll give you a couple of ways 301 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: into that, and we can do avenues down there. I 302 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: apologize for something like a multiple choice test, but I'm 303 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 2: obviously work out my own thoughts about this. So number 304 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: one is really personal, which is the reason I'm a 305 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 2: scholar of racism in my life is because I grew 306 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 2: up with a dad who's a Holocaust survivor, who saw 307 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 2: anti Semitism everywhere. He looked like if there wasn't a 308 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 2: parking space when we'd go to the baseball game, he'd 309 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 2: be like, Jews can't park anywhere, you know, something like like. 310 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: That was his way of understanding the world was anti 311 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 2: Semitism because my dad grew up Ninety of our family 312 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 2: were murdered in Holocaust, and my dad and my grandparents escaped, 313 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 2: and it just became his lens right that. And in 314 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 2: a way, when you start to see a lens of 315 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: a structure that is meant for you to be oppressed, 316 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: that's kind of how you see the world now. I 317 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 2: I for me, obviously, I've brought in fact I hardly 318 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 2: ever think about anti semitism, and I haven't really thought 319 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 2: about it that much before six months ago. But I 320 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: can see how when that becomes your response to a threat, 321 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: it just becomes very pervasive. We're under attack, it must 322 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: be our group, bust may under attack. And so it's 323 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 2: a very automatic reflex for people with histories of trauma 324 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: like the Holocaust or slavery or other kinds of things 325 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: to go to that narrative and not and foreclose other narratives. 326 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 2: And so part of the story is, I mean, I 327 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: obviously disagree with the idea that everything's being anti Semitism. 328 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 2: And my fourth point was like calling an anti Semitism 329 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 2: makes it harder to see how you're the aggressor as 330 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: well as the victim. But I guess part of that 331 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 2: is just to say that that when that becomes the worldview, 332 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 2: that becomes people's kind of go to response in ways 333 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: that any challenges like this, and I think you know 334 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 2: you and I've talked about this a lot, there are 335 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: some basic foundational things about these tests that are like 336 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 2: existentially terrifying for people who are Jewish, right, And so 337 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 2: the idea that you know, even from the river to 338 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: the sea, Like everybody's like, well, what's the big deal 339 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: from the river to the sea, but that is basically 340 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 2: something that's very very it's just seen as kind of 341 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 2: an existential terror. The idea that basically people would overturn 342 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,479 Speaker 2: the state of Israel, and things like that, and so 343 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 2: in a way that's kind of become the go to, 344 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 2: which becomes generalizable. And again, part of the issue, this 345 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: is kind of the research I do, is that when 346 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: you're always saying you're the victim, you're not seeing how 347 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 2: you're the aggressor. And so in a way, there also 348 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 2: is a psychology of getting yourself off the hook of 349 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 2: being part of the problem as well as being part 350 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: of the solution. So I think that's part of it. 351 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 2: Is just this is how people with historical trauma act, 352 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 2: And I think that's an important point. But I guess 353 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 2: the other, probably more important point for me is that 354 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 2: there have been Israelis who don't see the world that 355 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 2: way in the streets protesting against the Natanyahu government for 356 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: a year before October seventh, and we're saying exactly the 357 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 2: same things that you just said to me in your question. 358 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 2: Israelis don't feel that way. I mean, I've been on 359 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: the phone with people all morning and they're like supporting 360 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: the protesters here and want their government to be overturned 361 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 2: and all these kind of things. And so in a way, 362 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 2: I think what you're talking about is American Judaism in 363 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: a way more than Israeli Judaism. That's my personal sense. 364 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm talking. I have no context with which to 365 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 1: talk about Israeli Judaism because I have only been to 366 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: Israel once, right, and I've had one, you know, one 367 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: week long experience with visiting the Kanesset and different leaders, 368 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: you know. So when I'm talking, I'm talking specifically through 369 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: the lens of what is happening on college campuses, through 370 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: the vantage point of mainstream media labeling protest, every single 371 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: protest and objection to the continuation of a genocide as 372 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: anti Semitism. Now, what I will say is that the 373 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: other piece that I find incredibly troubling is that this 374 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: is all cyclical to me. Yeah, right. There has never 375 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: been a student movement in our history, in our modern history, 376 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: that has been looked at favorably as it is happening. Never, 377 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: not one fucking time. I don't care if it was 378 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: peaceful to sit in at the lunch counters when folks 379 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: were doing that and being beaten and lynched and murdered 380 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: and all of these things, and when people were barricading 381 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: themselves in during the Vietnam War on the very same campus, right, 382 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: And so these student protests are never looked upon favorably 383 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: in protests, is never looked upon favorably, particularly in countries 384 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: that quote unquote care about democracy, because there will always 385 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 1: be a group that says that it's not the right 386 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 1: way to protest. Then tell me fucking how, Because if 387 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: it's not a sit in, if it's not being peaceful, 388 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: if it is now having to take responsibility for every 389 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: single other individual outside of Columbia University and inside of 390 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: the campus, you tell me the right way to push 391 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: back against oppression. Right, So this becomes again this US 392 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: against them. You know this isn't right. They don't know 393 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: what they're talking about. And I'm just like, so, who 394 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,479 Speaker 1: does the people that are sending twenty four billion dollars 395 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: to continue the murder of women and children? Like this 396 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: is just I don't I guess I get to a 397 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: point where I'm just like, we're never going to get 398 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: to a place of what is quote unquote right when 399 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: people outrage is never received in a sincere way and 400 00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: when movements are particularly picked apart by the fringe elements. Right, 401 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: So you see this one hammer that was breaking glass. 402 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: I've seen it six times. I only had the television 403 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 1: on for twenty minutes before I jumped on. 404 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 2: And also, I mean there was a great piece I 405 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 2: think it was Jonathan Chait this morning about how the 406 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 2: people who are benefiting the most from the from this 407 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 2: is Trump and Nitanyahu. Like, the more it can be 408 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 2: seen as like extremist crazies, we're against the crazies, you know. 409 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: I guess my hope, to be honest, is that, I 410 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 2: mean I think this every week and then things seem 411 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 2: to escalate. Is that I hope we're on the same 412 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 2: side and we're just all talking past each other. That's 413 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 2: my greatest hope, you know, because I don't like, I mean, 414 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 2: you and I have talked about this idea of a 415 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 2: polarizing crisis on this show a bunch, this idea that 416 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 2: basically there is a strong coalition and then something happens 417 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden we're existentially divided. I mean, 418 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: I'll just say, honestly, it's pretty weird having fought against 419 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: injustice for my entire career to you know, now feel 420 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: an activist and a target. And I mean I don't 421 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: personally feel a target, but I'm just saying that, like 422 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 2: if I just keep imagining, like like, it's just weird. 423 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 2: To be Jewish right now. Honestly, he really is, And 424 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: so what does it mean to like, I just feel 425 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 2: like if this was some other group other than my own, 426 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 2: maybe I would feel different, or maybe things would be 427 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: easier or more clear cut. Like it's just I'm trying 428 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 2: to kind of I'm trying to kind of walk a 429 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: fine line in a certain way, which is I support protest, 430 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: I support free expression, I'm against aggression. I've been against 431 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 2: the natanya Who government for many, many, many years. And 432 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: I also don't want to see the destruction of Israel, 433 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 2: which I feel like Nitaya Who is kind of messianically 434 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 2: bringing into being. And so it's just a very fine line. 435 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: And so people like me are talking like I'm talking 436 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: right now, which is a little bit vague and a 437 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: little bit over intellectualized because it's it's just a strange 438 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: moment to be. You know, you want to be part 439 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: of the group fighting against injustice, and you're also that 440 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 2: feel like you're I mean, when you see those hammer 441 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 2: pictures in the window, it feels very personal, Like it 442 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 2: feels very very personal. 443 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: Here's what I will say to that. I am black 444 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: and queer, and have been black and queer. My entire life. 445 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: I have watched I don't know how many videos of 446 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: black men, women and children being gunned down, shot choked 447 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: to death, and I'm just supposed to go ahead and 448 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: like carry on with my life. I've witnessed five hundred 449 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: anti LGBTQ bills just in the last year come into 450 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: being to question, like my existence as a queer person 451 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: and the ability to live free inside of this country. 452 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: Of course, I understand what it is like to live 453 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: in a body that you actually can at at any 454 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: time or what have you change other people's outside perspectives 455 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: of whether or not you are a danger, a threat 456 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: of this or that. And so that being said and understood, 457 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: when I see peaceful protests that started as you know 458 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: BLM marching down the street, and then at other times 459 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: it burst into a CVS or a Wendy's going up 460 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: in flames, I understand both. I understand both the act 461 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: of destruction right of just so much how much more 462 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: do you want people to take? How much more killing 463 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: do you want people to be able to ingest before 464 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: they explode? And then I also understand the people that 465 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: are able to march peacefully, able to sit at the 466 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: policy tables and try and figure out ways to change things. 467 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: Humans are complex, like, we have a lot of emotions 468 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: and a lot of feelings and a lot of angst, 469 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: particularly those that are from historically marginalized and oppressed and 470 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: abused groups. There is never going to be a neat 471 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: solution for murderous problems. And if we can't come I 472 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: guess my feeling is, if we can't come to the 473 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: table and agree on what is morally right and morally wrong, 474 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: then we will never get anywhere and the killing will 475 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: just persist. 476 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: You know, again, I've said this avention here, but my 477 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: first that's beautifully said, thank you, and I completely agree, 478 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: and I could not agree more. I guess for me, like, 479 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: because I've worked so long with the Israeli left, I 480 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: feel like there's such a natural alliance between the American 481 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 2: left and the Israeli left about so many things we're 482 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 2: talking about here, except for the existence of the country. 483 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: And so my frustration is kind of working on both 484 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: sides of this issue, that there are so many people 485 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: saying very similar things. I mean, I've got friends in 486 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: Israel whose kids are going to be jailed for refusing 487 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,479 Speaker 2: to be in the army if they invade rafa and 488 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: things like that, Like there are a lot of people 489 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 2: relatively wanting the same thing who are sitting at that 490 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 2: lunch counter. I completely agree with that, But there are 491 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 2: a lot of people who also benefit from playing that 492 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: hammer video ninety million times, so that you kind of 493 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 2: conflate that with everything, and so in a way, it 494 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 2: just takes it just takes a lot to kind of 495 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: maintain that. And in a way, you know, it's it's 496 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 2: just such a moment because you know, on one hand, 497 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: we're shaking up the entire world, and some people would 498 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: say the ends justify the means, but it also is 499 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: terrifying because you don't know like where this is all going. 500 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 2: And so I agree with you that, I think that's 501 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: very well said, and I hope I hope that they 502 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: I hope at the end of the day we end 503 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: up getting back to that lunch counter and making some 504 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 2: some real change. 505 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: I hope that our time that we spend together as 506 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: this persists, Jonathan, can become a place for honest and 507 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: really you know, continued, really tough conversations and honest and 508 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: honest ones. Because I think that if we try to 509 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: find ways to intellectualize things that just honestly don't warrant 510 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: that level, you know, Like, I don't want people to 511 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: turn away from this issue because they say that it's 512 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: too complex, because they're not historians, because they're not the 513 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: political elite, and so oh, I have no space to have, 514 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, this conversation because I'm not Jewish, or because 515 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: you know I'm you know, because I'm not Muslim. Because 516 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: I want people to understand that, like, we need to 517 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: get back to a place to where we can agree 518 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: on what is right and what is wrong. We have 519 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: rules of war for a reason, right, and when those 520 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: rules of war are broken, right, like, then if that 521 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: is just going to be the way, then the whole 522 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: world will fall into chaos, which is where I honestly 523 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: think that we are now and why things are so 524 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: radically out of whack. 525 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 2: I agree one million percent as always, and I would 526 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 2: also add to that though you know, I could be 527 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 2: wrong because you don't know. The Israel government is being 528 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 2: written by messi anicists, like people who want to see 529 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: the end of days, kind of similar to people here. 530 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 2: But there is a very real chance that there actually 531 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 2: will be a ceasefire. And so the question is if 532 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 2: there is a cease fire what it's also kind of 533 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: if there is a ceasefire, what then does the protest 534 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 2: movement do? So I do think that there are questions 535 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 2: about all of this, but I also think that there 536 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 2: is a not zero chance that the protests are going 537 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 2: to get one of their main stipulations, and then the 538 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 2: question is kind of what's the next phase? Right? 539 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely well, we'll leave it there today, My friends, 540 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: thank you so much, as you do every week and 541 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: engaging in really difficult conversation at a really unprecedented times. 542 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:29,439 Speaker 1: We appreciate you. That is it for me today, dear 543 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: friends on Woke af AS always, power to the people 544 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay 545 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: woke as fuck.