Speaker 1: I'm Jen Salata and I was a writer on the Office.
Speaker 1: Oh she's back, everybody. Hello there, Welcome to another fan
Speaker 1: freaking tastic installment of the Office Deep Dive. As always,
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Brian Baumgartner, and yeah, she is back, baby,
Speaker 1: the lafi ist writer from our set, probably the laffiest
Speaker 1: person on this podcast, let's be honest, the person who
Speaker 1: actually got welts in her cheeks from trying to hold
Speaker 1: it in. That's what she said. Uh, Jen Salata, if
Speaker 1: you haven't listened to part one of our conversation, do it. Okay,
Speaker 1: just go check that out first, because today Jen and
Speaker 1: I circle back to talk about what it was really
Speaker 1: like to be a writer on the Office, how she
Speaker 1: started to blur reality from TV, and how she helped
Speaker 1: write some of the most classic love stories in modern history,
Speaker 1: from Michael and Holly The Match Made in Heaven, to
Speaker 1: Dwight and Angela The Match Made in No. I don't
Speaker 1: know anyways. I love Jen. Jen is was always an
Speaker 1: absolute delight to have on set. And let me tell you,
Speaker 1: she has some stories. And speaking of stories, seamless transition
Speaker 1: right there, we have a place for you to see
Speaker 1: a bunch of stories the greatest stories ever. Right now
Speaker 1: you can pre order on Amazon. It's called Well, Come
Speaker 1: to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office.
Speaker 1: It comes out next week if you're listening to this
Speaker 1: live ish all right, So if you love this podcast,
Speaker 1: if you love this show, I will guarantee you, well guarantee,
Speaker 1: I can garronty you're gonna love this book too. And
Speaker 1: well the other thing I can guaranty, of course, is
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Speaker 1: Jen Silata, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and
Speaker 1: squeakan Bubble and Squeaker cook at every month lift over
Speaker 1: from the Night before. Where did the idea behind getting
Speaker 1: Dwight and Angela together and come from? Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I would imagine it was something from the O G Gang,
Speaker 1: like Greg or Mike or I or Paul. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I just remember the idea that the two of them
Speaker 1: were so strong and so specific, and I think I
Speaker 1: couldn't see dwighte with anyone, and it couldn't see Angela
Speaker 1: with anyone except wait a minute, maybe you can't see
Speaker 1: either of them with anyone except maybe it was one
Speaker 1: of these like two things that have something in common.
Speaker 1: They would repel a lot of things, but maybe not
Speaker 1: each other. So I think that there was some fascination
Speaker 1: in terms of how un Jim and Pam it was
Speaker 1: and how it could be played for even more comedy,
Speaker 1: you know, just the comedy romance was the exciting part
Speaker 1: of that for us. Of course, I like the lay
Speaker 1: years and levels, so would want a tiny little bit
Speaker 1: of pathos in that or just to see the tiniest
Speaker 1: little undercurrent, not immediately but of the two of them
Speaker 1: going through something that they want. But the comedy of
Speaker 1: them was I think the impetus for for that and
Speaker 1: seeing wanting to see Dwight in a romance and see
Speaker 1: her in a romance like that just seems like you
Speaker 1: don't want to look exactly. Um, going back, do you
Speaker 1: recall could you imagine that their wedding would end up
Speaker 1: ending the show? I don't think I could have known that. No,
Speaker 1: I mean I was hopeful for it, but um, but
Speaker 1: I think what was cool about that show and felt brave.
Speaker 1: I think there was a bravery about Greg that is like,
Speaker 1: let's just go for it. Let's just go for it
Speaker 1: and we'll see, right And and in general, people would
Speaker 1: ask like, how much did you know about the end
Speaker 1: of the season from where you started at the beginning,
Speaker 1: And we would just carve out thirteen because something could
Speaker 1: come up in that thirteen that was so unexpected and
Speaker 1: delightful we'd want to follow that more. Or something could
Speaker 1: not work for some reason. You don't know necessarily. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of faith in Dwight
Speaker 1: and Angela, but we always left ourselves open to how
Speaker 1: something could pop or not pop or you know. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know that I would have thought ending the
Speaker 1: whole series like I would have thought it was like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's still I don't even think I would
Speaker 1: have known we were going that many years. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just like I was so excited. I certainly hoped so,
Speaker 1: But um, why do you think the fans responded so
Speaker 1: much to Jim and Pam God? I think they're so
Speaker 1: gifted that I feel like it was the right storyline
Speaker 1: with the right two actors. There was like a chemistry
Speaker 1: and a dynamic between the two of them. One of
Speaker 1: my favorite things I got to do with them was
Speaker 1: the Jinx episode where they didn't speak. I couldn't believe
Speaker 1: the moments I was getting where you know, there's a
Speaker 1: moment where Pam, you know, says, Oh, what are you
Speaker 1: going to tell me something? Oh, you can't tell me something?
Speaker 1: And he wanted to say that he liked her, right,
Speaker 1: but he's now has to be silent. But she says,
Speaker 1: what is there something you want to tell me that
Speaker 1: you can't And he looks just like his stomach drops
Speaker 1: and he turns white and he looks down and then
Speaker 1: you see her see that he did that, and know
Speaker 1: what that means. They were so incredibly gifted as like
Speaker 1: they could be silent film stars. I really feel like
Speaker 1: the dynamic between the two of them, But I also
Speaker 1: think it was Greg's thing. And I keep kind of
Speaker 1: saying this kind of thing in different ways of like
Speaker 1: the Beauty, the pop of Beauty and the Gray, like
Speaker 1: having an episode that's not about them or is about
Speaker 1: you know, you guys are Dwight or Michael, and then
Speaker 1: having this little pop of Jim and Pam not overdoing
Speaker 1: it when it felt like it was doing stuff when
Speaker 1: it wasn't even doing stuff. Just seeing that Jim and
Speaker 1: Pam were in the background of a scene where you're like,
Speaker 1: they like each other, but they're not getting together. Was
Speaker 1: this thing that I feel like fans were rooting force.
Speaker 1: You could have go to this anybody in this ensemble
Speaker 1: and give them a fantastic storyline and still feel the
Speaker 1: yearning between the two of the you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like and it will because it wasn't accelerated so quickly.
Speaker 1: The best things were things we had to reach for,
Speaker 1: and the fact that they weren't front and center. The
Speaker 1: fact that the pressure wasn't on them made us want
Speaker 1: to I don't know, just made us enjoy it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So when Holly is brought in, do you remember any
Speaker 1: conversation about where Michael ends his journey on the show
Speaker 1: being with her or was this just a limited thing.
Speaker 1: I can't quite remember what we've said about like ending
Speaker 1: the show. I just remember all the discussions about Jan
Speaker 1: and whether or not to evolve him and Holly. The
Speaker 1: decision of Holly came out of the decision to evolve
Speaker 1: Michael's character passed Jan and to a point where he
Speaker 1: was finding a peer. So we wanted somebody who was
Speaker 1: a peer relationship and it didn't necessarily I mean in
Speaker 1: my mind and have to be that it would be
Speaker 1: her and her forever, but that she would be the
Speaker 1: first person that you know, was really appear for him
Speaker 1: and that he evolved. Michael would have picked. So if
Speaker 1: we wrote the character right and if it worked out,
Speaker 1: if she left him or if he left her, that
Speaker 1: he would be devastated, that it would be a real
Speaker 1: peer relationship, and then the consequences of a real pure relationship,
Speaker 1: the fact that she was so fantastic, and then we
Speaker 1: got to keep her around and keep using her as
Speaker 1: in our biggest dreams she would be she would be
Speaker 1: Michael's person. I remember when we wrote the first episode
Speaker 1: that she was in Paul and I and Paul had
Speaker 1: the first half and I had the second half, and
Speaker 1: Paul all that Yoda stuff was just pure Paul, just genius.
Speaker 1: I read it and I was like, holy sh it,
Speaker 1: this is fantastic because she's Michael, but she's different enough,
Speaker 1: And it was sort of like, how do we get
Speaker 1: somebody that is a peer for him, that adores him. Um,
Speaker 1: that is goofy but also like him. You just want
Speaker 1: you love her, you feel her. You She's so sweet
Speaker 1: and you just you know, excited for her and um
Speaker 1: so the dynamic between the two of them I thought
Speaker 1: was phenomenal. So so as soon as we saw that,
Speaker 1: it was an instant yes, this is this is going
Speaker 1: to work because you can think about it and you
Speaker 1: can write that he's going to have somebody that's kind
Speaker 1: of a little bit more involved. But I think as
Speaker 1: soon as we saw that, we just fell in love
Speaker 1: with them, right things in your head at first and
Speaker 1: you're like, is this going to work? Like what if
Speaker 1: we evolved him past jan and we write this character
Speaker 1: of Holly you know, this is before noise, any and everything,
Speaker 1: and then what if it's just boring and it's not
Speaker 1: funny and it doesn't work. So there was stakes on
Speaker 1: this of like, oh, like how do we do this?
Speaker 1: And um, thank god Paul wrote those Yoda scenes, like
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, thank god. Um. Rain and I got
Speaker 1: into a conversation where I, well, what I said to
Speaker 1: him was that I consider Twight and Michael to be
Speaker 1: one of the greatest comedy duos of all times. Where
Speaker 1: do you feel like they fit in in terms of
Speaker 1: sort of the legacy of comedy duos? So I agree completely.
Speaker 1: I think they were just one of the best. They're
Speaker 1: up there with the greatest, I think their abilities individually
Speaker 1: and then bouncing off of each other. They were so
Speaker 1: specific in Dwight's wanting to be more than he is
Speaker 1: in Michael's eye. I mean, I'm thinking of drug testing.
Speaker 1: When Michael asked for Dwight's herein it's like the ultimate
Speaker 1: ask is like going against his ethics and responsibilities as
Speaker 1: a sheriff. But then this is Michael asking him, and
Speaker 1: then they're both just so crazy gifted. I mean, there
Speaker 1: were times where I just had to leave the room,
Speaker 1: like I couldn't. I was gonna laugh and I was
Speaker 1: going to ruin a take, so I had to I
Speaker 1: had to get out of there. Like you were maybe
Speaker 1: the laughiest writer. I was so bad. It was so bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you funny? How am I like you put any human
Speaker 1: being in a situation with you guys in that area
Speaker 1: and a bullpen in What are you supposed to do? Like?
Speaker 1: How do you not laugh? Like I was biting my
Speaker 1: cheek at times, Like I would go home and like
Speaker 1: I'd have a little like welts and stuff I had.
Speaker 1: I had a trick? Was your trick? I had a trick?
Speaker 1: I had I had a trick at times. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was just mostly And it's funny because where I
Speaker 1: really remember you laughing, as in the Talking Heads again,
Speaker 1: where you're well in that same room, in the conference room.
Speaker 1: That was where it was the most difficult, because somehow
Speaker 1: you felt trapped. You couldn't turn around, you couldn't turn
Speaker 1: to the side, like you couldn't find a pole to
Speaker 1: hide behind, like there was sort of nothing to be done.
Speaker 1: So I said, your index finger and my thumb. I
Speaker 1: would take that and I would bury my fingernail into
Speaker 1: the side of my thumb. And it was just trying
Speaker 1: to just think about that small amount of pain that
Speaker 1: was there and not Steve being prison Mike or whatever.
Speaker 1: It was insane not doing that. There was one moment
Speaker 1: with Rain where Greg and I were there. I don't
Speaker 1: remember who was writing and directing. I think he was
Speaker 1: directing and I was the writer, and we were sitting
Speaker 1: there across from Greg and Matt Soon is there and
Speaker 1: Dwight is talking and he's doing a talking head. I
Speaker 1: cannot remember the topic. But Greg leaps, he leaps. He
Speaker 1: can't be in the room, so he leaves and he's
Speaker 1: like outside of the stage even and then I move
Speaker 1: and sit in his chair so he can have eyeline,
Speaker 1: and then I leave. I can't do it. I leave,
Speaker 1: And so basically Rain is sitting there and being like,
Speaker 1: is that okay? Did anyone see that? Is it? Okay?
Speaker 1: Can move on, like nobody's there. But it happened with you.
Speaker 1: I remember happening with you several times. And what happened
Speaker 1: with you is that just you could see your brain work,
Speaker 1: You can see yourself thinking, and there were just moments
Speaker 1: where I knew what was coming up or I knew
Speaker 1: what was going to happen, and it's just just delightful
Speaker 1: journey of you getting to what you were going to say.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm not gonna I'm gonna lose
Speaker 1: my ship, and so I would bite my cheek, but
Speaker 1: half the time it was just lose it. It was
Speaker 1: like an exposure of psychology for my laughing. Yes, Gregg
Speaker 1: talked about the cast too, so not just Michael and Dwight,
Speaker 1: but you know the Accountant's Corner, but Dwight and Jim
Speaker 1: as well, and it really everybody fit together like a puzzle. Yeah, God,
Speaker 1: it was such a gift. I mean to come in.
Speaker 1: I came in after the casting process obviously, and I
Speaker 1: was just so impressed with all of you guys. It
Speaker 1: was phenomenal, just like so strong, such good comic actors,
Speaker 1: but also so specific in terms of your characters. It
Speaker 1: felt like you guys were living in those characters you were.
Speaker 1: You were just so true to them so that you
Speaker 1: could be delighted when you know, Angela would come over
Speaker 1: and ask you to do something. It was just you
Speaker 1: were amused already because you just knew that. Like, you
Speaker 1: guys were so dialed in and you were just going
Speaker 1: to knock it out of the park. What do you
Speaker 1: think makes Michael a great leading man? I think that
Speaker 1: he cares so much about the people that he were
Speaker 1: works with. It's his family. He doesn't have a family
Speaker 1: outside of that, so it's very important that things go
Speaker 1: well and he's rooting for them. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: he is so uh different in the way it approaches everything.
Speaker 1: I think the contrast between caring so much and liking
Speaker 1: the people that he works with and loving them and
Speaker 1: wanting them to do well, and yet not having the
Speaker 1: ability that he should have as a manager at all,
Speaker 1: like that tension is fascinating to me. I think you
Speaker 1: asked about Michael, but I think Steve is such a genius.
Speaker 1: You know, we could get away with more because he
Speaker 1: was so gifted. We could push because he could he
Speaker 1: could have that undercurrent of humanity and where it's coming from,
Speaker 1: underneath the broadest thing. I mean, certainly there were lines,
Speaker 1: but we could push that so far and still have
Speaker 1: it read true. And I remember, you know, seeing first
Speaker 1: season of the Office, seeing four year old Virgin, and
Speaker 1: then I was just like, Oh, there's nothing this man
Speaker 1: can't do. I mean, he would do takes completely differently,
Speaker 1: give you all these different sides of things and sides
Speaker 1: of him. I just felt for him. I felt for
Speaker 1: him enormously because he could do the sillier joke ere thing,
Speaker 1: but there always was the truth and the reality that
Speaker 1: was grounding it. I always felt where he was coming from.
Speaker 1: I always felt like he wanted to connect or didn't
Speaker 1: want to disappoint or you know, like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: He's just extraordinary. So it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous because you
Speaker 1: can have you laugh and then in a in another
Speaker 1: moment you can just cry, and he can just turn there.
Speaker 1: There was a moment and I don't remember I think
Speaker 1: I was. I wrote it and I wasn't directing, but
Speaker 1: I was on set and he was doing a scene
Speaker 1: with Holly and they were having this kind of intimate
Speaker 1: scene and then they started laughing about something and I
Speaker 1: started laughing and he Steve turned to me. I think
Speaker 1: this is the ploper real. Actually hey, he turned to me,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, I'm sorry. He's like,
Speaker 1: we're acting here, Like he just was laughing but he
Speaker 1: was laughing. They were laughing so real, which is of
Speaker 1: course what acting is. But like I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: they broke because it's just just just feels too real.
Speaker 1: And so there were just moments with him where I like,
Speaker 1: I couldn't I just couldn't tell, you know, because it
Speaker 1: was just so true. Yeah. I haven't asked anybody this,
Speaker 1: but it just occurring to me. Do you do you
Speaker 1: think that there was because of Steve's ability to improvise?
Speaker 1: Did you feel like the words that the writers were
Speaker 1: writing were less precious on this show than anywhere else
Speaker 1: or did that game not change? I personally, I feel
Speaker 1: like they weren't so precious. I think, especially with him.
Speaker 1: Everybody was so talented on the show, but Steve had
Speaker 1: an ability to understand so much the subtext of all
Speaker 1: the text that I felt like changing things up or
Speaker 1: adding something always. I mean, I think of Oscar kissing
Speaker 1: Oscar and Gay witch Hunt. It was like the best moment,
Speaker 1: one of the best moments of the whole show. And
Speaker 1: it's just you knew it was on story, it was
Speaker 1: on theme, and it was funnier than what was scripted.
Speaker 1: So I felt like he had great respect for the text,
Speaker 1: but he had this ridiculous ability to understand everything in
Speaker 1: such depth that if he was going to change things up,
Speaker 1: it was always going to honor the intention. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: been asking people who was the greater loss, Michael or Steve. Oh, Steve.
Speaker 1: I mean I wasn't there, but I just feel like
Speaker 1: everybody saw what genius he was with the Michael Scott character,
Speaker 1: but getting to see him outside of that, and how,
Speaker 1: you know, good he was with everybody else. I mean,
Speaker 1: we'd have like, I remember, we had an actor come
Speaker 1: in who was very young and very new, and Steve
Speaker 1: just working with his performance and dialing in different directions
Speaker 1: so that he could help this person get up to
Speaker 1: that level, you know, And there were so many kind
Speaker 1: hearted things he did that, like you know, Michael Scott
Speaker 1: was brilliant, but to know that that's who he's playing
Speaker 1: with any steps out of that role and just as
Speaker 1: a human was just such a good man. I have
Speaker 1: to say, Steve, did you ever think of Greg as
Speaker 1: a teacher? M hm. I feel like I learned an
Speaker 1: enormous amount from Greig. I'm trying to think of the
Speaker 1: thing my my greatest takeaways from being Greg. I had
Speaker 1: been writing for a while by the time I was
Speaker 1: working with Greg, and so I think that even though
Speaker 1: there were writing things to learn, I think I learned
Speaker 1: a lot of things about leadership that I really was
Speaker 1: kind of focused on or thinking about. He was phenomenally
Speaker 1: good at story and so many things. So I learned
Speaker 1: from just being around him about how he approaches and
Speaker 1: how he attacks things. But I'm just going to try
Speaker 1: to think about the things now. I'm my brain. I'm
Speaker 1: sort of thinking about it live. I have a little
Speaker 1: bit of a d D D. If you haven't noticed that.
Speaker 1: One thing is he had this idea about blue skying,
Speaker 1: where he would say, let's think about the ideas in
Speaker 1: this area, and we would think about it, and we
Speaker 1: would just think about throw out ideas, throw out ideas.
Speaker 1: Even when we had great or even excellent ideas, He's like,
Speaker 1: keep going. So the amount of times we had something
Speaker 1: that was great and he would come in and challenge
Speaker 1: and test and want to take it and shaken and
Speaker 1: turn it upside down. Every time we did that, we
Speaker 1: came up with something better. It wasn't lateral, it wasn't worse.
Speaker 1: It wasn't that we should have stayed with that first thing.
Speaker 1: It was better. So the fact that he hired people
Speaker 1: that were so animated and passionate, and he wasn't scared
Speaker 1: of somebody who would constantly challenge him, you know, like
Speaker 1: he wanted to have people who would fight him on
Speaker 1: stuff in the room. He wanted wherever the idea came
Speaker 1: from that was best. He just wanted that idea in there.
Speaker 1: It did not have to be his idea. And I've
Speaker 1: worked with show runners who are brilliant, but it had
Speaker 1: to be their stamp had to be on something. But
Speaker 1: to his credit, he uh got a group of people
Speaker 1: that all thought differently and that we're going to fight
Speaker 1: in the room about things that mattered to them. They
Speaker 1: all gave a ship and they all thought and I've
Speaker 1: been fortunate enough to work with a bunch of different people,
Speaker 1: and I sort of divided everybody into all the show
Speaker 1: runners I've worked with into I Basically I told Greg this.
Speaker 1: I said, they're all control freaks because you have to
Speaker 1: be some level of, you know, really caring and being
Speaker 1: very meticulous about what you put out into the world.
Speaker 1: But I think there are control freaks with egos and
Speaker 1: control freaks without egos, And the difference between creating a
Speaker 1: show with that kind of vibe where you have somebody
Speaker 1: very smart, filtering everything and deciding it, but wants to
Speaker 1: hear everything and wants to be challenged, and if he
Speaker 1: doesn't agree with you, I'm going to come back and
Speaker 1: say it three more times, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like there's I with the no sound of the proposal.
Speaker 1: I I just was beating that drum for weeks because
Speaker 1: it meant that much to me. But um, steaks and
Speaker 1: escalation and surprise and all those things he's such a
Speaker 1: master at. And some of those um either I relearned
Speaker 1: or learned a Greg way of doing things that was phenomenal.
Speaker 1: But I kept thinking about leadership when I was working
Speaker 1: with him. So interesting, so other than blue skying, if
Speaker 1: there's anything else specifically about the work in the writer's room,
Speaker 1: or because was like a beautiful mind in there. I
Speaker 1: don't know if anyone's told you that. Note cards everywhere,
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of note cards, fragments, piece is of cards,
Speaker 1: pieces of stories, character, um things. You'd look at a
Speaker 1: card and you were like, I have no idea what
Speaker 1: this card means, Like you have to try to remember, um,
Speaker 1: candy bags, you know, like I didn't know candy bags
Speaker 1: before the office, which was we would have, you know,
Speaker 1: a thirty five forty page scripts sometimes and eventually it
Speaker 1: would be twenty minutes or twenty one minutes. And then
Speaker 1: additionally we would have sometimes a sixty or eighty page
Speaker 1: joke bag. So like for every talking head of of yours,
Speaker 1: we'd have ten additional talking heads if we had the
Speaker 1: time and you know, we could get to them, we'd
Speaker 1: have alternate jokes for scenes. Um, yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: them trying to think of other Greg things that were specific,
Speaker 1: I could tell a story if you want about Greg
Speaker 1: and I trying to write a script together. Um, I
Speaker 1: wonder if I should say that. I think you'd be
Speaker 1: fine with this, But I had to write an episode
Speaker 1: with Greg at one point, I mean, I'd love to
Speaker 1: write an episode, but like we both usually wrote alone,
Speaker 1: and then we were going to try and write together.
Speaker 1: And my process at the beginning of writing is a
Speaker 1: lot of fascinating and just like procrastinating and then panic
Speaker 1: and then writing. Um So I remember we sat down
Speaker 1: to write and both of us seemed like we were
Speaker 1: just sort of like it's one of those writer things
Speaker 1: where you just make sure the temperature is exactly right,
Speaker 1: you have all the pencils exactly sharpened. Should we ordered lunch,
Speaker 1: maybe sorder lunch, or should we you know, go for
Speaker 1: a walk, like makes more sure. You know, you're just
Speaker 1: kind of avoiding getting to it because it's hard. It's wonderful,
Speaker 1: but it's hard. And um, I think at that moment,
Speaker 1: he he was having some sort of a I don't
Speaker 1: remember it was a back thing or shoulder thing, and
Speaker 1: I was having an ear problem, and so like we
Speaker 1: looked up I think on web MD, like what was
Speaker 1: going on with my ear? And like I think we
Speaker 1: he got me to put some like olive oil from
Speaker 1: the kitchen in my ear because I was like, I
Speaker 1: think that this will help. And we're sitting there and
Speaker 1: we're on web m D and we're just not starting.
Speaker 1: We're not starting. We're just diagnosing what's wrong with my
Speaker 1: ear and what's wrong with this back, and we're spending
Speaker 1: a lot of time doing this, and eventually we just like,
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm gonna write Act one. You go right?
Speaker 1: Actually like where we can't. We cannot sit together and
Speaker 1: do this because it's like taking the individual traits of
Speaker 1: this and and exponentially magnifying it. But we turned it
Speaker 1: into a Michael and Dwight. Uh they're on web m
Speaker 1: D and Dwight is like, point to your body where
Speaker 1: it hurts, and he doesn't. It's like something's wrong with
Speaker 1: your uterus or your ovaries. Anyway, Very often what was
Speaker 1: happening in our lives became in office episode That was
Speaker 1: me actually writing a script with the genius Greg, but
Speaker 1: seeing that writers are all the same when they're we
Speaker 1: can avoid for a little bit starting hard stuff. That's
Speaker 1: so amazing. That sounds like so both of you too.
Speaker 1: Um So when Greg left season five, you and Paul
Speaker 1: are show runners. Yes, so what how did he go
Speaker 1: about asking you? Oh my gosh, I can't um, I
Speaker 1: kind of want to tell you another story, but it's
Speaker 1: going to be circular again. It doesn't matter. Okay, I
Speaker 1: want to tell you another story and then we'll go
Speaker 1: back and then you can just slice place the And UM.
Speaker 1: I told Greg this, and I think he he doesn't
Speaker 1: remember this or he denies this. But early on Greg
Speaker 1: asked Mike and Paul and I to sort of be um,
Speaker 1: I'm terrible at military things lieutenants. Is that like a
Speaker 1: person like underneath the case he's the captain, Like, okay,
Speaker 1: so we were going to kind of be underneath him
Speaker 1: and take over some responsibilities, you know. So he said
Speaker 1: we were going to be meeting like once a week,
Speaker 1: and we were just talking about certain things and like
Speaker 1: maybe divide up like you know. Mike was going to
Speaker 1: be responsible for some things and Paul and I and
Speaker 1: then ultimately we report back to Greg. Greg would be
Speaker 1: in charge, but everything he was just getting some help.
Speaker 1: And I remember he gave a memo UM, and it
Speaker 1: was kind of like, Okay, we're gonna meet every Monday
Speaker 1: in UM in this room here, and it's going to
Speaker 1: be from you know, nine o'clock to ten o'clock. And
Speaker 1: I think there was like one rule and the rule
Speaker 1: was something like say things if you can, and like
Speaker 1: the quickest amount of time that you can say that.
Speaker 1: There was something like that. It was very polite and
Speaker 1: it was very it was like okay. It was basically
Speaker 1: like kind of try to stay on track. And then
Speaker 1: I'm like thinking about it, and I'm like, Mike is
Speaker 1: very sustinct. He likes to talk and he's very sustinct
Speaker 1: and he says everything and Paul doesn't talk that much.
Speaker 1: And I was like, this memo is telling me not
Speaker 1: to talk so much. Now, this is not Greg trying
Speaker 1: to quiet you know, a writer, because Greg like always
Speaker 1: but I talked a lot. I really was like, this
Speaker 1: is like him saying, you know, try to try to
Speaker 1: be careful and how you pick what you're saying, and
Speaker 1: like he can get down to the things that are important.
Speaker 1: So the takeaway needs to not be Greg was trying
Speaker 1: to quiet me, but more that I talked a whole
Speaker 1: hell of a lot. So it's like you wrote that
Speaker 1: memo for me. There's no we knew what room to
Speaker 1: be and we knew what time it was. This was
Speaker 1: a memo to say stopped talking all the time. He's like,
Speaker 1: I don't think I did that anyway. So so Paul
Speaker 1: and I had some responsibilities, and we had been for
Speaker 1: some things. Yeah, you and Mike and Paul had had
Speaker 1: some responsibilities and fire responsibilities leading into this, so we
Speaker 1: would start to run rooms. So I just think that, Um,
Speaker 1: I don't remember actually him like the day that he
Speaker 1: asked us, but I remember being very excited, you know,
Speaker 1: like I was nervous. Of course, I wanted to do
Speaker 1: a good job, and we felt an enormous amount of responsibility.
Speaker 1: But I also felt like he wasn't like, you know,
Speaker 1: get on a boat and leave. It wouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to contact him, and he would, you know, help us
Speaker 1: to navigate this and we'd be able to ask questions. Um,
Speaker 1: do you remember anything about you know, you're running the
Speaker 1: show now and NBC. I understand there was some pressure
Speaker 1: about bringing in some A list star for the Super
Speaker 1: Bowl episode. Do you remember anything about that. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: always feel like you just don't want to be taken
Speaker 1: out of the moment of the show. And I sort
Speaker 1: of remember for the first time, I feel like NBC
Speaker 1: was so good and they gave such good notes, and
Speaker 1: I felt like they just really trusted Greg and they
Speaker 1: trusted the writers and the actors certainly, but I do
Speaker 1: feel like the Super Bowl put pressure on the powers
Speaker 1: that be so that it was a little bit of
Speaker 1: I remember hearing this, and it could be incorrect, but
Speaker 1: this is how I remember hearing that. The goal was
Speaker 1: to write an Office episode that all of the fans
Speaker 1: who already fans of the Office would know and love
Speaker 1: because it's their favorite show, and we're going to just
Speaker 1: write a typical Office episode. However, at the same time,
Speaker 1: an Office episode that's not like an Office episode, so
Speaker 1: that we can get new fans in. Like so, I
Speaker 1: was like, these two things contradict each other. There's no
Speaker 1: way to do this, And I think that became one
Speaker 1: of our hardest stories to break, because we came up
Speaker 1: with other stories and ended up throwing out more stories
Speaker 1: on the way to that final story than any other episode,
Speaker 1: because we were trying to appease to our fans and
Speaker 1: also maybe broaden it a little bit more to get
Speaker 1: new fans who needed to have something some bells and
Speaker 1: whistles of some other kind to then get them in
Speaker 1: and then we'll still be the same Office. But so,
Speaker 1: I think the idea to put the celebrities in a
Speaker 1: movie was a better idea of how to handle that.
Speaker 1: But I think I remember pushing back on the celebrity
Speaker 1: thing because I never like when something bigger comes into
Speaker 1: our world. Are you proud of your your year show running?
Speaker 1: I am? I am. I am proud of it. I
Speaker 1: feel like we did a good job. I don't know
Speaker 1: if I could be the one to judge it, but
Speaker 1: but I'm particularly proud in the Michael Scott Paper Company
Speaker 1: because it was kind of towards the end of the
Speaker 1: year and we were tired, you know, and it was
Speaker 1: a fun thing to do. And it was a little
Speaker 1: bit of a risk and a huge risk because we had,
Speaker 1: you know, three of our characters going off. But you know,
Speaker 1: it was hard but very very rewarding, and I feel like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was one of my favorite years. So you go
Speaker 1: from being a writer to being a lieutenant to being
Speaker 1: a co showrunner and then you started directing. How was
Speaker 1: that for you to be on set and directing Crime
Speaker 1: Made was the first episode? Crime was the first one?
Speaker 1: And this is um, I don't know if you know this,
Speaker 1: but on Beach Games, which was just a crazy episode,
Speaker 1: like a forty two page script, it was an now
Speaker 1: or maybe longer actually two quick tell you two quick things.
Speaker 1: One was that there was just so much to do
Speaker 1: and we didn't have the time. I think it was
Speaker 1: one of Ed Helms's first episodes. Two I can't remember
Speaker 1: when he joined the cast, not overly that long after
Speaker 1: he joined Scranton. I remember we were going to put
Speaker 1: him in a sumo suit and we were going to
Speaker 1: pull him out in the middle of the lake, and
Speaker 1: I remember I had to go. There was so much
Speaker 1: chaos that he was like in hair and makeup or something.
Speaker 1: I don't remember what it was. But he missed the
Speaker 1: safety meaning and he like he mad, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: he was briefed. I'll say, you know he was briefed
Speaker 1: on it, but I remember very specifically hearing that there
Speaker 1: were water snakes and where we're not to tell him.
Speaker 1: But I don't think I did. Was I think they're
Speaker 1: near the edges. I didn't want that to be in
Speaker 1: his head. I didn't want to be scared on top
Speaker 1: of it. So I'm sorry if I know that somebody
Speaker 1: didn't supposedly briefed him, but I did hear them say
Speaker 1: the water stakes part. I'm like, I don't know what
Speaker 1: to do here, because if I would not want to
Speaker 1: know that, but I think but that was a moment
Speaker 1: from Beach Games. But it was I think it was
Speaker 1: because of the chaos that there was a lot happening
Speaker 1: at once, and so I ended up at one point
Speaker 1: Kent called and we we had to stop. We had
Speaker 1: to stop. It was like we went over and then
Speaker 1: we went over again, and we went over again, and
Speaker 1: we have like forty five seconds to get this scene right.
Speaker 1: And he calls me and he's like, he's like upset.
Speaker 1: I understand it's he's got to get the scene. And
Speaker 1: I make this decision of like I can either explain
Speaker 1: to you why I don't have time to talk to
Speaker 1: you right now and how if you let me have
Speaker 1: this forty five seconds we will get everything and we
Speaker 1: will stop, or I can go do it. So I
Speaker 1: just like quietly he's like talking kind of loudly. I
Speaker 1: just put the phone on a chair and to like,
Speaker 1: let's go and then we get it. And we got it.
Speaker 1: So I was like it was one of those moments
Speaker 1: where I was like, we won't get it if, you know,
Speaker 1: keep having discussion about how you want to get it.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't as following was upset and it was
Speaker 1: the last minute. But during that in the very last
Speaker 1: day of shooting, there was just so much and we
Speaker 1: had a lot of things kind of spill over because
Speaker 1: it's just a huge episode. There was one moment where
Speaker 1: Harold Ramos said to me, you go do the people,
Speaker 1: I'll do the tech stuff for this scene. Like we
Speaker 1: divided up as a showrunner or whatever. I was able
Speaker 1: to kind of communicate with you anyway, but normally on
Speaker 1: a set as the director that speaks, you know, so
Speaker 1: he was like, go kind of communicate what you want
Speaker 1: and what's in the scene, and I'll kind of work
Speaker 1: on the camera stuff. So I guess he had mentioned
Speaker 1: and this is more about Harold Ramus just being incredibly
Speaker 1: generous than about my abilities. I can swear to you
Speaker 1: that at the time, but he had mentioned to Greg
Speaker 1: that maybe I should be directing. So Greg had asked
Speaker 1: me if I wanted to do it, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: a thousand percent, yes. I was super nervous when I
Speaker 1: first started directing. Um. I remember Ed or somebody else
Speaker 1: I think it was Ed had said, you know, fake
Speaker 1: it till you make it, like it's an advice in
Speaker 1: you know, And I was like, I can't fake it.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna look like I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: So I just researched and studied and tried to knew
Speaker 1: that you guys were phenomenal and nobody was gonna make
Speaker 1: me look bad because if I just screwed something up,
Speaker 1: you guys would elevate it. No one would notice. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. Somebody would have maybe not us,
Speaker 1: but yet. Okay, So then after season five, you and
Speaker 1: Paul are both in charge and you decide to to
Speaker 1: take a step back. Why did you decide to do that?
Speaker 1: So this is such a hard thing to explain because
Speaker 1: it was my favorite job ever. I felt so lucky,
Speaker 1: I said, felt so blessed to be on that staff.
Speaker 1: It was the show that most mashed my sensibilities, Like
Speaker 1: I felt like I won the lottery. I really really did.
Speaker 1: I think it happened, and I don't know if it
Speaker 1: was because we were doing so many episodes a year,
Speaker 1: but I just started to get a little bit, like
Speaker 1: it's a weird thing to say because the show was,
Speaker 1: you know, phenomenal, but I started to get a little
Speaker 1: bit bored in that, Like I wasn't able to think
Speaker 1: in the same way and come up with the same
Speaker 1: kind of stories and characters and moments. And it got harder,
Speaker 1: and I think part of me too, there was something
Speaker 1: pushing me more and more and more to write original material,
Speaker 1: to be challenged, to throw myself off the deep end
Speaker 1: and have to create a world of my own. You know.
Speaker 1: I really just also wanted to I wanted to be
Speaker 1: able to bring my a game, and I felt like,
Speaker 1: I think I wanted a little bit of a new challenge.
Speaker 1: But it was an incredibly difficult position, and um, I
Speaker 1: wonder if I can tell the story, I'm gonna tell it,
Speaker 1: and then I can just always ask him if it's
Speaker 1: okay to say about whatever. I decided I was going
Speaker 1: to leave, and it was incredibly difficult. Um, And I
Speaker 1: told Jean, I said, you know, I'm gonna end up
Speaker 1: telling Greig that I'm going to leave, and like it was,
Speaker 1: you know, difficult for me, you know whatever, But I
Speaker 1: just said, don't say anything. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do it, you know, But I just want to let
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know why. I just felt an
Speaker 1: affinity to those guys. And Jeane laughed and he taught
Speaker 1: me a lesson I keep to this day. He laughed
Speaker 1: and he said, I think it's funny that you think
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of anything other than myself at any given moment. Like,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell him. And I went up to
Speaker 1: tell Greg, and this was a Friday, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get it over with and I go
Speaker 1: to the I'll go to his office and I start crying,
Speaker 1: like on the way to his office, and I was like,
Speaker 1: not today. Ladies don't cry at work, which I have
Speaker 1: cred at work. But I was like, so I just
Speaker 1: turned around and I couldn't tell him. And then I
Speaker 1: told him then on Monday, but I was just in
Speaker 1: it was that painful. I just felt like I wanted
Speaker 1: a new challenge. I loved everybody so much though, that
Speaker 1: it was such a difficult decision, and I just felt like, um, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember you telling me on set. I don't know why,
Speaker 1: but I just remember thinking, oh, well, that's a real loss.
Speaker 1: Thank you for saying that. I it was really really
Speaker 1: hard for me. I loved you guys, I mean I
Speaker 1: just loved you, and it was awkward for me too,
Speaker 1: because I felt like it was a hard thing to
Speaker 1: explain because I didn't know how to say it, because
Speaker 1: I didn't think the two things matched up. This was
Speaker 1: the best job I ever had. It was the most
Speaker 1: aligned with what I love to do. I love the
Speaker 1: cast more than any other cast I've been with. I
Speaker 1: love the writers, and so I was frustrating myself for
Speaker 1: a while, and I spent some months trying to decide
Speaker 1: it because I was like, what's wrong with my brain
Speaker 1: that I can't say? I mean literally, I just like,
Speaker 1: I just start being frustrated in myself of like, you know,
Speaker 1: what the hell? But I think it was just wanting
Speaker 1: at that point, and I had done other shows I
Speaker 1: started at I started on Home Improvement, I came up
Speaker 1: with whatever Wilson said, you know, like a lot of
Speaker 1: the Wilson stuff in his backyard. So I've been writing
Speaker 1: for a long time, and I think I wasn't necessarily
Speaker 1: brave enough to go out and try to write things
Speaker 1: of my own. And I think the Office. In fact,
Speaker 1: just remembering this right now, when I was telling Greg this,
Speaker 1: I felt like I was brave enough and confident enough
Speaker 1: to go off and do my own things because of
Speaker 1: my experience on the Office. And He's like, I did
Speaker 1: this to you. I created this, I created you wanted
Speaker 1: to leave. I was like, so, yeah, it was a difficult.
Speaker 1: It was really difficult for me. Um, why do you think, well,
Speaker 1: the show is bigger now in pop culture than it
Speaker 1: ever was when it was airing on NBC on Thursday nights.
Speaker 1: Why do you think people are connecting to it like
Speaker 1: they haven't or not that they haven't, But why has
Speaker 1: it become such a phenomenon? Well, um, maybe the part
Speaker 1: A is to just compliment it. But I'm just I
Speaker 1: just think Greg and you guys, and you know, everybody
Speaker 1: created such a kind of almost timeless comedy show where
Speaker 1: it's like you very much relate to the people, and
Speaker 1: there's such heart and it was well written. The actors,
Speaker 1: everybody brought such comedy and some pathos and everything to it.
Speaker 1: So I think that it's one of those like lightning
Speaker 1: in a bottle things where everything coalesced at the right
Speaker 1: all together to create this thing. And then I think
Speaker 1: people don't sit down to watch TV at a certain
Speaker 1: time on a certain night. It's like people want to
Speaker 1: have it when they want to have it. They want
Speaker 1: to like I think I read Billie Eilish has watched
Speaker 1: every episode eleven times, and she said that she has
Speaker 1: it on the in the background sometimes when she's just
Speaker 1: in her tour bus likes other things to do, Like
Speaker 1: I feel like there's something kind of comforting about at
Speaker 1: the relationships that you relate to and that there's it's
Speaker 1: so real, but you want to be able to put
Speaker 1: it on when you want to put it on, and
Speaker 1: especially younger people, so that they just can, you know,
Speaker 1: watch it whenever they want to digest it and watch it.
Speaker 1: And so I also think that there's something happening right
Speaker 1: now where everybody is so fragment and everybody is so divided.
Speaker 1: There's a comfort that comes, which is weird because I
Speaker 1: think it is subversive and it is crazy, but there's
Speaker 1: a comfort that it's like I know these people, They're
Speaker 1: like me, I know these people. I feel safe here
Speaker 1: instead of like, you know, whatevers go else is going
Speaker 1: on around you. You can kind of retreat into that
Speaker 1: in a weird way. I felt that way when the Mr.
Speaker 1: Rogers movie. I was like, oh God, just come hug
Speaker 1: me and Mr Rodgers again and again. And there's like
Speaker 1: a weird thing which is subversive and it you know,
Speaker 1: but I do think that you feel like you know them,
Speaker 1: you feel like they're family, and then it makes you
Speaker 1: feel you can kind of disappear with them and stay
Speaker 1: with them for a while. It's not a one off
Speaker 1: and you care about all you guys who cared about
Speaker 1: the characters. Right. What are you most thankful for in
Speaker 1: your experience on the show? Getting to be a part
Speaker 1: of it? I mean really just getting to be there,
Speaker 1: um I I would say overall, just being a part
Speaker 1: of it, getting to be in that writer's room and
Speaker 1: getting to work with you guys, getting to work with
Speaker 1: the actors. Um. It made me realize what is possible
Speaker 1: and what at the best something could be. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just feel so. I feel so lucky and grateful. On
Speaker 1: on a on a smaller note, I think you know,
Speaker 1: I was talking about Greg and him being brave. I
Speaker 1: also think that he hired people that he believed in,
Speaker 1: but he also trusted them, and so there were some moments.
Speaker 1: There was a moment that really helped me, and this
Speaker 1: is actually what I was referencing when I was leaving
Speaker 1: the show. Um, there was a moment with grief counseling
Speaker 1: actually where Greg got it and Steve got it and
Speaker 1: I got it, but it was a hard episode to
Speaker 1: put flags on and say this is what's happening to
Speaker 1: the character because it was so internal, and I think
Speaker 1: we had some notes of like make sure the audience
Speaker 1: understands what's happening. And knew I knew, Steve did, I
Speaker 1: knew Greg didn't. I know I did it. But are
Speaker 1: people going to be a little confused with this? Are
Speaker 1: they not? So? Greg went through my episode and was
Speaker 1: maybe trying to put little sign posts that if we
Speaker 1: needed them, great, they're there. If not, we'll pull him
Speaker 1: out in editing, and he was trying to sort of
Speaker 1: navigate this and I had written it in a way
Speaker 1: that it was difficult to do that. So after about
Speaker 1: six or eight hours for Better for Wars, I don't
Speaker 1: think it was all like beautifully written in a way
Speaker 1: that was intractable, but like I think that it was
Speaker 1: everything depended on the last thing. He was one of
Speaker 1: those where it was like he was literally going through
Speaker 1: all the stages of grief, and Greg at one point
Speaker 1: came to me and said, I want you to go
Speaker 1: into your office. I want you to think about anything
Speaker 1: that we did to try to put the signposts in
Speaker 1: or any jokes that you know, we came up with
Speaker 1: that we should add or not add or whatever whatever,
Speaker 1: And I want you to figure out what do you
Speaker 1: want it to be? What do you not wanted to
Speaker 1: be one of those things? Do you want? And then
Speaker 1: we're going to shoot whatever you come out of your
Speaker 1: office with. And that moment was like, Okay, there was
Speaker 1: such faith and such trust, and that gave me such
Speaker 1: a huge lift, I mean in my career, in my
Speaker 1: own confidence level, and that actually I referenced when I
Speaker 1: was leaving. He's like, wait a minute, I caused this,
Speaker 1: But I think that personally, professionally writer wise, that meant
Speaker 1: a lot to me because I had been on staffs
Speaker 1: of shows where someone didn't get my sensibility, get my
Speaker 1: sense of humor, or you spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: trying to get something in someone else's voice that you
Speaker 1: don't believe in as much. So I felt very grateful.
Speaker 1: But the quick answer is I felt very grateful to
Speaker 1: be at the party. Well, you've said a number of
Speaker 1: times that their connection to us, but the characters are
Speaker 1: creation by the actors in conjunction with the writers, and
Speaker 1: your contribution to the show and your your leadership throughout
Speaker 1: multiple seasons, but you leading it in one is some
Speaker 1: huge Well thank you. I just thank you. I felt
Speaker 1: so lucky to be there. Thank you, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming in. Oh I hope so I took
Speaker 1: you longer then I should have. I didn't even talk
Speaker 1: about that. Can I tell you one quick thing? Oh yes,
Speaker 1: I literally got talked to you once about it, not
Speaker 1: not in a like, but like sure and Greg were like,
Speaker 1: could you be a tiny bit more selective in the
Speaker 1: amount of times you say that's what she said? But
Speaker 1: that just made me in the room as a as
Speaker 1: a person because constantly I so Greg ended up thinking
Speaker 1: that there were two parts of my brain, one that
Speaker 1: was thinking of comedy and story and the other one
Speaker 1: was just trolling for that's what she said set up.
Speaker 1: So what they did is they just made me more
Speaker 1: clever about it. Like I would have scenarios where like
Speaker 1: five people involved with it and it would be like
Speaker 1: three levels of dialogue deep, and then I'd be like,
Speaker 1: that's what she said. So it just made my brain
Speaker 1: work harder. But I spent a lot of time I'm
Speaker 1: up in the writers room saying that's what she said,
Speaker 1: because I would constantly hear that set up? Who came
Speaker 1: up with it? BJ? Brought it into the show? Um,
Speaker 1: I think it was something that pre existed and then
Speaker 1: he brought up brought it into the show. But it
Speaker 1: was definitely b J. But I have been credited for
Speaker 1: it only because I said so many times that people
Speaker 1: are like, what the fuck? Yeah, no, b J brought
Speaker 1: it up, but I took it in right. Um, Okay,
Speaker 1: thank you? What did I tell you? Oh? Jen is
Speaker 1: the absolute best. Thanks for joining me, Jen, I am
Speaker 1: so glad that the world got to hear well from
Speaker 1: the woman behind the words. And to everyone else, thank
Speaker 1: you for listening. And guess what ding ding ding ding ding?
Speaker 1: Special announcement Why don't you come back tomorrow? Yeah, because
Speaker 1: I am launching the rest of my conversation with our
Speaker 1: spectacular writer Mike Sure or you might know him as
Speaker 1: Dwight's weirdo cousin mows. See you tomorrow, everyone. The Office.
Speaker 1: Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
Speaker 1: alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is
Speaker 1: Tessa Kramer. Our producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia.
Speaker 1: My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our
Speaker 1: theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend
Speaker 1: Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski.
Speaker 1: Mmmmmmm