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Speaker 1: I'm Jen Salata and I was a writer on the Office.

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Speaker 1: Oh she's back, everybody. Hello there, Welcome to another fan

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Speaker 1: freaking tastic installment of the Office Deep Dive. As always,

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Brian Baumgartner, and yeah, she is back, baby,

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Speaker 1: the lafi ist writer from our set, probably the laffiest

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Speaker 1: person on this podcast, let's be honest, the person who

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Speaker 1: actually got welts in her cheeks from trying to hold

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Speaker 1: it in. That's what she said. Uh, Jen Salata, if

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Speaker 1: you haven't listened to part one of our conversation, do it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: just go check that out first, because today Jen and

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Speaker 1: I circle back to talk about what it was really

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Speaker 1: like to be a writer on the Office, how she

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Speaker 1: started to blur reality from TV, and how she helped

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Speaker 1: write some of the most classic love stories in modern history,

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Speaker 1: from Michael and Holly The Match Made in Heaven, to

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Speaker 1: Dwight and Angela The Match Made in No. I don't

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Speaker 1: know anyways. I love Jen. Jen is was always an

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Speaker 1: absolute delight to have on set. And let me tell you,

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Speaker 1: she has some stories. And speaking of stories, seamless transition

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Speaker 1: right there, we have a place for you to see

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Speaker 1: a bunch of stories the greatest stories ever. Right now

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Speaker 1: you can pre order on Amazon. It's called Well, Come

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Speaker 1: to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office.

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Speaker 1: It comes out next week if you're listening to this

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Speaker 1: live ish all right, So if you love this podcast,

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Speaker 1: if you love this show, I will guarantee you, well guarantee,

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Speaker 1: I can garronty you're gonna love this book too. And

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Speaker 1: well the other thing I can guaranty, of course, is

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Speaker 1: that you're going to love the Wonderful, the Brilliant, the

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Speaker 1: Magnificent Friend of Mine that is coming on right now,

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Speaker 1: Jen Silata, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and

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Speaker 1: squeakan Bubble and Squeaker cook at every month lift over

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Speaker 1: from the Night before. Where did the idea behind getting

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Speaker 1: Dwight and Angela together and come from? Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine it was something from the O G Gang,

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Speaker 1: like Greg or Mike or I or Paul. I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: I just remember the idea that the two of them

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Speaker 1: were so strong and so specific, and I think I

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Speaker 1: couldn't see dwighte with anyone, and it couldn't see Angela

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Speaker 1: with anyone except wait a minute, maybe you can't see

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Speaker 1: either of them with anyone except maybe it was one

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Speaker 1: of these like two things that have something in common.

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Speaker 1: They would repel a lot of things, but maybe not

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Speaker 1: each other. So I think that there was some fascination

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Speaker 1: in terms of how un Jim and Pam it was

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Speaker 1: and how it could be played for even more comedy,

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Speaker 1: you know, just the comedy romance was the exciting part

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Speaker 1: of that for us. Of course, I like the lay

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Speaker 1: years and levels, so would want a tiny little bit

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Speaker 1: of pathos in that or just to see the tiniest

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Speaker 1: little undercurrent, not immediately but of the two of them

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Speaker 1: going through something that they want. But the comedy of

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Speaker 1: them was I think the impetus for for that and

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Speaker 1: seeing wanting to see Dwight in a romance and see

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Speaker 1: her in a romance like that just seems like you

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Speaker 1: don't want to look exactly. Um, going back, do you

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Speaker 1: recall could you imagine that their wedding would end up

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Speaker 1: ending the show? I don't think I could have known that. No,

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Speaker 1: I mean I was hopeful for it, but um, but

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Speaker 1: I think what was cool about that show and felt brave.

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Speaker 1: I think there was a bravery about Greg that is like,

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Speaker 1: let's just go for it. Let's just go for it

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Speaker 1: and we'll see, right And and in general, people would

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Speaker 1: ask like, how much did you know about the end

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Speaker 1: of the season from where you started at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: And we would just carve out thirteen because something could

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Speaker 1: come up in that thirteen that was so unexpected and

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Speaker 1: delightful we'd want to follow that more. Or something could

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Speaker 1: not work for some reason. You don't know necessarily. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of faith in Dwight

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Speaker 1: and Angela, but we always left ourselves open to how

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Speaker 1: something could pop or not pop or you know. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I would have thought ending the

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Speaker 1: whole series like I would have thought it was like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's still I don't even think I would

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Speaker 1: have known we were going that many years. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just like I was so excited. I certainly hoped so,

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Speaker 1: But um, why do you think the fans responded so

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Speaker 1: much to Jim and Pam God? I think they're so

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Speaker 1: gifted that I feel like it was the right storyline

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Speaker 1: with the right two actors. There was like a chemistry

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Speaker 1: and a dynamic between the two of them. One of

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Speaker 1: my favorite things I got to do with them was

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Speaker 1: the Jinx episode where they didn't speak. I couldn't believe

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Speaker 1: the moments I was getting where you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: moment where Pam, you know, says, Oh, what are you

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Speaker 1: going to tell me something? Oh, you can't tell me something?

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Speaker 1: And he wanted to say that he liked her, right,

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Speaker 1: but he's now has to be silent. But she says,

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Speaker 1: what is there something you want to tell me that

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Speaker 1: you can't And he looks just like his stomach drops

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Speaker 1: and he turns white and he looks down and then

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Speaker 1: you see her see that he did that, and know

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Speaker 1: what that means. They were so incredibly gifted as like

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Speaker 1: they could be silent film stars. I really feel like

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Speaker 1: the dynamic between the two of them, But I also

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Speaker 1: think it was Greg's thing. And I keep kind of

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Speaker 1: saying this kind of thing in different ways of like

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Speaker 1: the Beauty, the pop of Beauty and the Gray, like

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Speaker 1: having an episode that's not about them or is about

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Speaker 1: you know, you guys are Dwight or Michael, and then

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Speaker 1: having this little pop of Jim and Pam not overdoing

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Speaker 1: it when it felt like it was doing stuff when

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Speaker 1: it wasn't even doing stuff. Just seeing that Jim and

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Speaker 1: Pam were in the background of a scene where you're like,

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Speaker 1: they like each other, but they're not getting together. Was

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Speaker 1: this thing that I feel like fans were rooting force.

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Speaker 1: You could have go to this anybody in this ensemble

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Speaker 1: and give them a fantastic storyline and still feel the

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Speaker 1: yearning between the two of the you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's like and it will because it wasn't accelerated so quickly.

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Speaker 1: The best things were things we had to reach for,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that they weren't front and center. The

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Speaker 1: fact that the pressure wasn't on them made us want

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Speaker 1: to I don't know, just made us enjoy it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So when Holly is brought in, do you remember any

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Speaker 1: conversation about where Michael ends his journey on the show

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Speaker 1: being with her or was this just a limited thing.

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Speaker 1: I can't quite remember what we've said about like ending

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Speaker 1: the show. I just remember all the discussions about Jan

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Speaker 1: and whether or not to evolve him and Holly. The

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Speaker 1: decision of Holly came out of the decision to evolve

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Speaker 1: Michael's character passed Jan and to a point where he

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Speaker 1: was finding a peer. So we wanted somebody who was

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Speaker 1: a peer relationship and it didn't necessarily I mean in

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Speaker 1: my mind and have to be that it would be

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Speaker 1: her and her forever, but that she would be the

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Speaker 1: first person that you know, was really appear for him

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Speaker 1: and that he evolved. Michael would have picked. So if

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Speaker 1: we wrote the character right and if it worked out,

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Speaker 1: if she left him or if he left her, that

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Speaker 1: he would be devastated, that it would be a real

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Speaker 1: peer relationship, and then the consequences of a real pure relationship,

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Speaker 1: the fact that she was so fantastic, and then we

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Speaker 1: got to keep her around and keep using her as

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Speaker 1: in our biggest dreams she would be she would be

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Speaker 1: Michael's person. I remember when we wrote the first episode

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Speaker 1: that she was in Paul and I and Paul had

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Speaker 1: the first half and I had the second half, and

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Speaker 1: Paul all that Yoda stuff was just pure Paul, just genius.

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Speaker 1: I read it and I was like, holy sh it,

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Speaker 1: this is fantastic because she's Michael, but she's different enough,

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Speaker 1: And it was sort of like, how do we get

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Speaker 1: somebody that is a peer for him, that adores him. Um,

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Speaker 1: that is goofy but also like him. You just want

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Speaker 1: you love her, you feel her. You She's so sweet

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Speaker 1: and you just you know, excited for her and um

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Speaker 1: so the dynamic between the two of them I thought

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Speaker 1: was phenomenal. So so as soon as we saw that,

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Speaker 1: it was an instant yes, this is this is going

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Speaker 1: to work because you can think about it and you

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Speaker 1: can write that he's going to have somebody that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a little bit more involved. But I think as

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Speaker 1: soon as we saw that, we just fell in love

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Speaker 1: with them, right things in your head at first and

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Speaker 1: you're like, is this going to work? Like what if

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Speaker 1: we evolved him past jan and we write this character

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Speaker 1: of Holly you know, this is before noise, any and everything,

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Speaker 1: and then what if it's just boring and it's not

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Speaker 1: funny and it doesn't work. So there was stakes on

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Speaker 1: this of like, oh, like how do we do this?

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Speaker 1: And um, thank god Paul wrote those Yoda scenes, like

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, thank god. Um. Rain and I got

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Speaker 1: into a conversation where I, well, what I said to

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Speaker 1: him was that I consider Twight and Michael to be

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Speaker 1: one of the greatest comedy duos of all times. Where

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Speaker 1: do you feel like they fit in in terms of

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Speaker 1: sort of the legacy of comedy duos? So I agree completely.

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Speaker 1: I think they were just one of the best. They're

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Speaker 1: up there with the greatest, I think their abilities individually

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Speaker 1: and then bouncing off of each other. They were so

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Speaker 1: specific in Dwight's wanting to be more than he is

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Speaker 1: in Michael's eye. I mean, I'm thinking of drug testing.

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Speaker 1: When Michael asked for Dwight's herein it's like the ultimate

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Speaker 1: ask is like going against his ethics and responsibilities as

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Speaker 1: a sheriff. But then this is Michael asking him, and

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Speaker 1: then they're both just so crazy gifted. I mean, there

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Speaker 1: were times where I just had to leave the room,

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Speaker 1: like I couldn't. I was gonna laugh and I was

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Speaker 1: going to ruin a take, so I had to I

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Speaker 1: had to get out of there. Like you were maybe

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Speaker 1: the laughiest writer. I was so bad. It was so bad. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you funny? How am I like you put any human

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Speaker 1: being in a situation with you guys in that area

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Speaker 1: and a bullpen in What are you supposed to do? Like?

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Speaker 1: How do you not laugh? Like I was biting my

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Speaker 1: cheek at times, Like I would go home and like

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Speaker 1: I'd have a little like welts and stuff I had.

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Speaker 1: I had a trick? Was your trick? I had a trick?

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Speaker 1: I had I had a trick at times. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was just mostly And it's funny because where I

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Speaker 1: really remember you laughing, as in the Talking Heads again,

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Speaker 1: where you're well in that same room, in the conference room.

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Speaker 1: That was where it was the most difficult, because somehow

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Speaker 1: you felt trapped. You couldn't turn around, you couldn't turn

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Speaker 1: to the side, like you couldn't find a pole to

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Speaker 1: hide behind, like there was sort of nothing to be done.

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Speaker 1: So I said, your index finger and my thumb. I

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Speaker 1: would take that and I would bury my fingernail into

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Speaker 1: the side of my thumb. And it was just trying

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Speaker 1: to just think about that small amount of pain that

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Speaker 1: was there and not Steve being prison Mike or whatever.

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Speaker 1: It was insane not doing that. There was one moment

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Speaker 1: with Rain where Greg and I were there. I don't

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Speaker 1: remember who was writing and directing. I think he was

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Speaker 1: directing and I was the writer, and we were sitting

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Speaker 1: there across from Greg and Matt Soon is there and

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Speaker 1: Dwight is talking and he's doing a talking head. I

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Speaker 1: cannot remember the topic. But Greg leaps, he leaps. He

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Speaker 1: can't be in the room, so he leaves and he's

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Speaker 1: like outside of the stage even and then I move

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Speaker 1: and sit in his chair so he can have eyeline,

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Speaker 1: and then I leave. I can't do it. I leave,

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Speaker 1: And so basically Rain is sitting there and being like,

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Speaker 1: is that okay? Did anyone see that? Is it? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Can move on, like nobody's there. But it happened with you.

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Speaker 1: I remember happening with you several times. And what happened

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Speaker 1: with you is that just you could see your brain work,

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Speaker 1: You can see yourself thinking, and there were just moments

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Speaker 1: where I knew what was coming up or I knew

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Speaker 1: what was going to happen, and it's just just delightful

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Speaker 1: journey of you getting to what you were going to say.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm not gonna I'm gonna lose

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Speaker 1: my ship, and so I would bite my cheek, but

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Speaker 1: half the time it was just lose it. It was

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Speaker 1: like an exposure of psychology for my laughing. Yes, Gregg

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Speaker 1: talked about the cast too, so not just Michael and Dwight,

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Speaker 1: but you know the Accountant's Corner, but Dwight and Jim

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Speaker 1: as well, and it really everybody fit together like a puzzle. Yeah, God,

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Speaker 1: it was such a gift. I mean to come in.

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Speaker 1: I came in after the casting process obviously, and I

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Speaker 1: was just so impressed with all of you guys. It

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Speaker 1: was phenomenal, just like so strong, such good comic actors,

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Speaker 1: but also so specific in terms of your characters. It

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Speaker 1: felt like you guys were living in those characters you were.

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Speaker 1: You were just so true to them so that you

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Speaker 1: could be delighted when you know, Angela would come over

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Speaker 1: and ask you to do something. It was just you

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Speaker 1: were amused already because you just knew that. Like, you

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Speaker 1: guys were so dialed in and you were just going

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Speaker 1: to knock it out of the park. What do you

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Speaker 1: think makes Michael a great leading man? I think that

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Speaker 1: he cares so much about the people that he were

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Speaker 1: works with. It's his family. He doesn't have a family

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Speaker 1: outside of that, so it's very important that things go

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Speaker 1: well and he's rooting for them. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: he is so uh different in the way it approaches everything.

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Speaker 1: I think the contrast between caring so much and liking

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Speaker 1: the people that he works with and loving them and

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Speaker 1: wanting them to do well, and yet not having the

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Speaker 1: ability that he should have as a manager at all,

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Speaker 1: like that tension is fascinating to me. I think you

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Speaker 1: asked about Michael, but I think Steve is such a genius.

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Speaker 1: You know, we could get away with more because he

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Speaker 1: was so gifted. We could push because he could he

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Speaker 1: could have that undercurrent of humanity and where it's coming from,

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Speaker 1: underneath the broadest thing. I mean, certainly there were lines,

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Speaker 1: but we could push that so far and still have

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Speaker 1: it read true. And I remember, you know, seeing first

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Speaker 1: season of the Office, seeing four year old Virgin, and

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Speaker 1: then I was just like, Oh, there's nothing this man

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Speaker 1: can't do. I mean, he would do takes completely differently,

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Speaker 1: give you all these different sides of things and sides

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Speaker 1: of him. I just felt for him. I felt for

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Speaker 1: him enormously because he could do the sillier joke ere thing,

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Speaker 1: but there always was the truth and the reality that

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Speaker 1: was grounding it. I always felt where he was coming from.

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Speaker 1: I always felt like he wanted to connect or didn't

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Speaker 1: want to disappoint or you know, like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: He's just extraordinary. So it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous because you

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Speaker 1: can have you laugh and then in a in another

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Speaker 1: moment you can just cry, and he can just turn there.

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Speaker 1: There was a moment and I don't remember I think

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Speaker 1: I was. I wrote it and I wasn't directing, but

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Speaker 1: I was on set and he was doing a scene

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Speaker 1: with Holly and they were having this kind of intimate

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Speaker 1: scene and then they started laughing about something and I

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Speaker 1: started laughing and he Steve turned to me. I think

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Speaker 1: this is the ploper real. Actually hey, he turned to me,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, I'm sorry. He's like,

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Speaker 1: we're acting here, Like he just was laughing but he

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Speaker 1: was laughing. They were laughing so real, which is of

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Speaker 1: course what acting is. But like I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they broke because it's just just just feels too real.

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Speaker 1: And so there were just moments with him where I like,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't I just couldn't tell, you know, because it

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Speaker 1: was just so true. Yeah. I haven't asked anybody this,

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Speaker 1: but it just occurring to me. Do you do you

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Speaker 1: think that there was because of Steve's ability to improvise?

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Speaker 1: Did you feel like the words that the writers were

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Speaker 1: writing were less precious on this show than anywhere else

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Speaker 1: or did that game not change? I personally, I feel

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Speaker 1: like they weren't so precious. I think, especially with him.

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Speaker 1: Everybody was so talented on the show, but Steve had

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Speaker 1: an ability to understand so much the subtext of all

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Speaker 1: the text that I felt like changing things up or

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Speaker 1: adding something always. I mean, I think of Oscar kissing

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Speaker 1: Oscar and Gay witch Hunt. It was like the best moment,

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Speaker 1: one of the best moments of the whole show. And

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Speaker 1: it's just you knew it was on story, it was

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Speaker 1: on theme, and it was funnier than what was scripted.

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Speaker 1: So I felt like he had great respect for the text,

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Speaker 1: but he had this ridiculous ability to understand everything in

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Speaker 1: such depth that if he was going to change things up,

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Speaker 1: it was always going to honor the intention. Yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: been asking people who was the greater loss, Michael or Steve. Oh, Steve.

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Speaker 1: I mean I wasn't there, but I just feel like

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Speaker 1: everybody saw what genius he was with the Michael Scott character,

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Speaker 1: but getting to see him outside of that, and how,

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Speaker 1: you know, good he was with everybody else. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we'd have like, I remember, we had an actor come

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Speaker 1: in who was very young and very new, and Steve

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Speaker 1: just working with his performance and dialing in different directions

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Speaker 1: so that he could help this person get up to

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Speaker 1: that level, you know, And there were so many kind

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Speaker 1: hearted things he did that, like you know, Michael Scott

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Speaker 1: was brilliant, but to know that that's who he's playing

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Speaker 1: with any steps out of that role and just as

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Speaker 1: a human was just such a good man. I have

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Speaker 1: to say, Steve, did you ever think of Greg as

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Speaker 1: a teacher? M hm. I feel like I learned an

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Speaker 1: enormous amount from Greig. I'm trying to think of the

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Speaker 1: thing my my greatest takeaways from being Greg. I had

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Speaker 1: been writing for a while by the time I was

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Speaker 1: working with Greg, and so I think that even though

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Speaker 1: there were writing things to learn, I think I learned

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Speaker 1: a lot of things about leadership that I really was

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Speaker 1: kind of focused on or thinking about. He was phenomenally

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Speaker 1: good at story and so many things. So I learned

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Speaker 1: from just being around him about how he approaches and

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Speaker 1: how he attacks things. But I'm just going to try

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Speaker 1: to think about the things now. I'm my brain. I'm

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Speaker 1: sort of thinking about it live. I have a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a d D D. If you haven't noticed that.

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Speaker 1: One thing is he had this idea about blue skying,

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Speaker 1: where he would say, let's think about the ideas in

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Speaker 1: this area, and we would think about it, and we

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Speaker 1: would just think about throw out ideas, throw out ideas.

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Speaker 1: Even when we had great or even excellent ideas, He's like,

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Speaker 1: keep going. So the amount of times we had something

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Speaker 1: that was great and he would come in and challenge

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Speaker 1: and test and want to take it and shaken and

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Speaker 1: turn it upside down. Every time we did that, we

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Speaker 1: came up with something better. It wasn't lateral, it wasn't worse.

345
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Speaker 1: It wasn't that we should have stayed with that first thing.

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Speaker 1: It was better. So the fact that he hired people

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Speaker 1: that were so animated and passionate, and he wasn't scared

348
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Speaker 1: of somebody who would constantly challenge him, you know, like

349
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Speaker 1: he wanted to have people who would fight him on

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Speaker 1: stuff in the room. He wanted wherever the idea came

351
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Speaker 1: from that was best. He just wanted that idea in there.

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Speaker 1: It did not have to be his idea. And I've

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Speaker 1: worked with show runners who are brilliant, but it had

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Speaker 1: to be their stamp had to be on something. But

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Speaker 1: to his credit, he uh got a group of people

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Speaker 1: that all thought differently and that we're going to fight

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Speaker 1: in the room about things that mattered to them. They

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Speaker 1: all gave a ship and they all thought and I've

359
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Speaker 1: been fortunate enough to work with a bunch of different people,

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Speaker 1: and I sort of divided everybody into all the show

361
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Speaker 1: runners I've worked with into I Basically I told Greg this.

362
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Speaker 1: I said, they're all control freaks because you have to

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Speaker 1: be some level of, you know, really caring and being

364
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Speaker 1: very meticulous about what you put out into the world.

365
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Speaker 1: But I think there are control freaks with egos and

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Speaker 1: control freaks without egos, And the difference between creating a

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Speaker 1: show with that kind of vibe where you have somebody

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Speaker 1: very smart, filtering everything and deciding it, but wants to

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Speaker 1: hear everything and wants to be challenged, and if he

370
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Speaker 1: doesn't agree with you, I'm going to come back and

371
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Speaker 1: say it three more times, you know what I mean?

372
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Speaker 1: Like there's I with the no sound of the proposal.

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Speaker 1: I I just was beating that drum for weeks because

374
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Speaker 1: it meant that much to me. But um, steaks and

375
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Speaker 1: escalation and surprise and all those things he's such a

376
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Speaker 1: master at. And some of those um either I relearned

377
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Speaker 1: or learned a Greg way of doing things that was phenomenal.

378
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Speaker 1: But I kept thinking about leadership when I was working

379
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Speaker 1: with him. So interesting, so other than blue skying, if

380
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Speaker 1: there's anything else specifically about the work in the writer's room,

381
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Speaker 1: or because was like a beautiful mind in there. I

382
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Speaker 1: don't know if anyone's told you that. Note cards everywhere,

383
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Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of note cards, fragments, piece is of cards,

384
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 1: pieces of stories, character, um things. You'd look at a

385
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 1: card and you were like, I have no idea what

386
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,959
Speaker 1: this card means, Like you have to try to remember, um,

387
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 1: candy bags, you know, like I didn't know candy bags

388
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Speaker 1: before the office, which was we would have, you know,

389
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Speaker 1: a thirty five forty page scripts sometimes and eventually it

390
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,160
Speaker 1: would be twenty minutes or twenty one minutes. And then

391
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Speaker 1: additionally we would have sometimes a sixty or eighty page

392
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Speaker 1: joke bag. So like for every talking head of of yours,

393
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Speaker 1: we'd have ten additional talking heads if we had the

394
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Speaker 1: time and you know, we could get to them, we'd

395
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: have alternate jokes for scenes. Um, yeah, I think that

396
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: them trying to think of other Greg things that were specific,

397
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 1: I could tell a story if you want about Greg

398
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 1: and I trying to write a script together. Um, I

399
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 1: wonder if I should say that. I think you'd be

400
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: fine with this, But I had to write an episode

401
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 1: with Greg at one point, I mean, I'd love to

402
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Speaker 1: write an episode, but like we both usually wrote alone,

403
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: and then we were going to try and write together.

404
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 1: And my process at the beginning of writing is a

405
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: lot of fascinating and just like procrastinating and then panic

406
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: and then writing. Um So I remember we sat down

407
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: to write and both of us seemed like we were

408
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: just sort of like it's one of those writer things

409
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 1: where you just make sure the temperature is exactly right,

410
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: you have all the pencils exactly sharpened. Should we ordered lunch,

411
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 1: maybe sorder lunch, or should we you know, go for

412
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: a walk, like makes more sure. You know, you're just

413
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: kind of avoiding getting to it because it's hard. It's wonderful,

414
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 1: but it's hard. And um, I think at that moment,

415
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Speaker 1: he he was having some sort of a I don't

416
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Speaker 1: remember it was a back thing or shoulder thing, and

417
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Speaker 1: I was having an ear problem, and so like we

418
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Speaker 1: looked up I think on web MD, like what was

419
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: going on with my ear? And like I think we

420
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: he got me to put some like olive oil from

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Speaker 1: the kitchen in my ear because I was like, I

422
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: think that this will help. And we're sitting there and

423
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Speaker 1: we're on web m D and we're just not starting.

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Speaker 1: We're not starting. We're just diagnosing what's wrong with my

425
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Speaker 1: ear and what's wrong with this back, and we're spending

426
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Speaker 1: a lot of time doing this, and eventually we just like,

427
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm gonna write Act one. You go right?

428
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: Actually like where we can't. We cannot sit together and

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Speaker 1: do this because it's like taking the individual traits of

430
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: this and and exponentially magnifying it. But we turned it

431
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 1: into a Michael and Dwight. Uh they're on web m

432
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: D and Dwight is like, point to your body where

433
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: it hurts, and he doesn't. It's like something's wrong with

434
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: your uterus or your ovaries. Anyway, Very often what was

435
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: happening in our lives became in office episode That was

436
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: me actually writing a script with the genius Greg, but

437
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: seeing that writers are all the same when they're we

438
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: can avoid for a little bit starting hard stuff. That's

439
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: so amazing. That sounds like so both of you too.

440
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: Um So when Greg left season five, you and Paul

441
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 1: are show runners. Yes, so what how did he go

442
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 1: about asking you? Oh my gosh, I can't um, I

443
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: kind of want to tell you another story, but it's

444
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: going to be circular again. It doesn't matter. Okay, I

445
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 1: want to tell you another story and then we'll go

446
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: back and then you can just slice place the And UM.

447
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: I told Greg this, and I think he he doesn't

448
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: remember this or he denies this. But early on Greg

449
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: asked Mike and Paul and I to sort of be um,

450
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: I'm terrible at military things lieutenants. Is that like a

451
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: person like underneath the case he's the captain, Like, okay,

452
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: so we were going to kind of be underneath him

453
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: and take over some responsibilities, you know. So he said

454
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: we were going to be meeting like once a week,

455
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: and we were just talking about certain things and like

456
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: maybe divide up like you know. Mike was going to

457
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: be responsible for some things and Paul and I and

458
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: then ultimately we report back to Greg. Greg would be

459
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: in charge, but everything he was just getting some help.

460
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: And I remember he gave a memo UM, and it

461
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: was kind of like, Okay, we're gonna meet every Monday

462
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: in UM in this room here, and it's going to

463
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: be from you know, nine o'clock to ten o'clock. And

464
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 1: I think there was like one rule and the rule

465
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: was something like say things if you can, and like

466
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: the quickest amount of time that you can say that.

467
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: There was something like that. It was very polite and

468
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: it was very it was like okay. It was basically

469
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: like kind of try to stay on track. And then

470
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: I'm like thinking about it, and I'm like, Mike is

471
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: very sustinct. He likes to talk and he's very sustinct

472
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: and he says everything and Paul doesn't talk that much.

473
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: And I was like, this memo is telling me not

474
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: to talk so much. Now, this is not Greg trying

475
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: to quiet you know, a writer, because Greg like always

476
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: but I talked a lot. I really was like, this

477
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: is like him saying, you know, try to try to

478
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: be careful and how you pick what you're saying, and

479
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: like he can get down to the things that are important.

480
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: So the takeaway needs to not be Greg was trying

481
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: to quiet me, but more that I talked a whole

482
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: hell of a lot. So it's like you wrote that

483
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: memo for me. There's no we knew what room to

484
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: be and we knew what time it was. This was

485
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: a memo to say stopped talking all the time. He's like,

486
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: I don't think I did that anyway. So so Paul

487
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: and I had some responsibilities, and we had been for

488
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: some things. Yeah, you and Mike and Paul had had

489
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: some responsibilities and fire responsibilities leading into this, so we

490
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: would start to run rooms. So I just think that, Um,

491
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: I don't remember actually him like the day that he

492
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: asked us, but I remember being very excited, you know,

493
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: like I was nervous. Of course, I wanted to do

494
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: a good job, and we felt an enormous amount of responsibility.

495
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: But I also felt like he wasn't like, you know,

496
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: get on a boat and leave. It wouldn't be able

497
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: to contact him, and he would, you know, help us

498
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: to navigate this and we'd be able to ask questions. Um,

499
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: do you remember anything about you know, you're running the

500
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: show now and NBC. I understand there was some pressure

501
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: about bringing in some A list star for the Super

502
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: Bowl episode. Do you remember anything about that. Yeah. I

503
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 1: always feel like you just don't want to be taken

504
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: out of the moment of the show. And I sort

505
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: of remember for the first time, I feel like NBC

506
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: was so good and they gave such good notes, and

507
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: I felt like they just really trusted Greg and they

508
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: trusted the writers and the actors certainly, but I do

509
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: feel like the Super Bowl put pressure on the powers

510
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: that be so that it was a little bit of

511
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: I remember hearing this, and it could be incorrect, but

512
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: this is how I remember hearing that. The goal was

513
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: to write an Office episode that all of the fans

514
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: who already fans of the Office would know and love

515
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: because it's their favorite show, and we're going to just

516
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: write a typical Office episode. However, at the same time,

517
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: an Office episode that's not like an Office episode, so

518
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: that we can get new fans in. Like so, I

519
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: was like, these two things contradict each other. There's no

520
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: way to do this, And I think that became one

521
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: of our hardest stories to break, because we came up

522
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: with other stories and ended up throwing out more stories

523
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: on the way to that final story than any other episode,

524
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: because we were trying to appease to our fans and

525
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: also maybe broaden it a little bit more to get

526
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: new fans who needed to have something some bells and

527
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: whistles of some other kind to then get them in

528
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: and then we'll still be the same Office. But so,

529
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: I think the idea to put the celebrities in a

530
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: movie was a better idea of how to handle that.

531
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: But I think I remember pushing back on the celebrity

532
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: thing because I never like when something bigger comes into

533
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: our world. Are you proud of your your year show running?

534
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: I am? I am. I am proud of it. I

535
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,239
Speaker 1: feel like we did a good job. I don't know

536
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: if I could be the one to judge it, but

537
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: but I'm particularly proud in the Michael Scott Paper Company

538
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: because it was kind of towards the end of the

539
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: year and we were tired, you know, and it was

540
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: a fun thing to do. And it was a little

541
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: bit of a risk and a huge risk because we had,

542
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: you know, three of our characters going off. But you know,

543
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: it was hard but very very rewarding, and I feel like, yeah,

544
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: it was one of my favorite years. So you go

545
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: from being a writer to being a lieutenant to being

546
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: a co showrunner and then you started directing. How was

547
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: that for you to be on set and directing Crime

548
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: Made was the first episode? Crime was the first one?

549
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: And this is um, I don't know if you know this,

550
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: but on Beach Games, which was just a crazy episode,

551
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: like a forty two page script, it was an now

552
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: or maybe longer actually two quick tell you two quick things.

553
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: One was that there was just so much to do

554
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: and we didn't have the time. I think it was

555
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: one of Ed Helms's first episodes. Two I can't remember

556
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: when he joined the cast, not overly that long after

557
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: he joined Scranton. I remember we were going to put

558
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: him in a sumo suit and we were going to

559
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: pull him out in the middle of the lake, and

560
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: I remember I had to go. There was so much

561
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: chaos that he was like in hair and makeup or something.

562
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: I don't remember what it was. But he missed the

563
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: safety meaning and he like he mad, you know, maybe

564
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: he was briefed. I'll say, you know he was briefed

565
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: on it, but I remember very specifically hearing that there

566
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: were water snakes and where we're not to tell him.

567
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: But I don't think I did. Was I think they're

568
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: near the edges. I didn't want that to be in

569
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: his head. I didn't want to be scared on top

570
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: of it. So I'm sorry if I know that somebody

571
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: didn't supposedly briefed him, but I did hear them say

572
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: the water stakes part. I'm like, I don't know what

573
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: to do here, because if I would not want to

574
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: know that, but I think but that was a moment

575
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: from Beach Games. But it was I think it was

576
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: because of the chaos that there was a lot happening

577
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: at once, and so I ended up at one point

578
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: Kent called and we we had to stop. We had

579
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: to stop. It was like we went over and then

580
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: we went over again, and we went over again, and

581
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: we have like forty five seconds to get this scene right.

582
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: And he calls me and he's like, he's like upset.

583
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: I understand it's he's got to get the scene. And

584
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: I make this decision of like I can either explain

585
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: to you why I don't have time to talk to

586
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: you right now and how if you let me have

587
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: this forty five seconds we will get everything and we

588
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: will stop, or I can go do it. So I

589
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: just like quietly he's like talking kind of loudly. I

590
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: just put the phone on a chair and to like,

591
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: let's go and then we get it. And we got it.

592
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: So I was like it was one of those moments

593
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: where I was like, we won't get it if, you know,

594
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: keep having discussion about how you want to get it.

595
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: And it wasn't as following was upset and it was

596
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: the last minute. But during that in the very last

597
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: day of shooting, there was just so much and we

598
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: had a lot of things kind of spill over because

599
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: it's just a huge episode. There was one moment where

600
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: Harold Ramos said to me, you go do the people,

601
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: I'll do the tech stuff for this scene. Like we

602
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: divided up as a showrunner or whatever. I was able

603
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: to kind of communicate with you anyway, but normally on

604
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: a set as the director that speaks, you know, so

605
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: he was like, go kind of communicate what you want

606
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: and what's in the scene, and I'll kind of work

607
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: on the camera stuff. So I guess he had mentioned

608
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: and this is more about Harold Ramus just being incredibly

609
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: generous than about my abilities. I can swear to you

610
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: that at the time, but he had mentioned to Greg

611
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: that maybe I should be directing. So Greg had asked

612
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: me if I wanted to do it, and I was like, oh,

613
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: a thousand percent, yes. I was super nervous when I

614
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: first started directing. Um. I remember Ed or somebody else

615
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: I think it was Ed had said, you know, fake

616
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: it till you make it, like it's an advice in

617
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: you know, And I was like, I can't fake it.

618
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna look like I don't know what I'm doing.

619
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: So I just researched and studied and tried to knew

620
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: that you guys were phenomenal and nobody was gonna make

621
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: me look bad because if I just screwed something up,

622
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: you guys would elevate it. No one would notice. Well,

623
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. Somebody would have maybe not us,

624
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: but yet. Okay, So then after season five, you and

625
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: Paul are both in charge and you decide to to

626
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,239
Speaker 1: take a step back. Why did you decide to do that?

627
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: So this is such a hard thing to explain because

628
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: it was my favorite job ever. I felt so lucky,

629
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: I said, felt so blessed to be on that staff.

630
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: It was the show that most mashed my sensibilities, Like

631
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: I felt like I won the lottery. I really really did.

632
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: I think it happened, and I don't know if it

633
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: was because we were doing so many episodes a year,

634
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: but I just started to get a little bit, like

635
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: it's a weird thing to say because the show was,

636
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: you know, phenomenal, but I started to get a little

637
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: bit bored in that, Like I wasn't able to think

638
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: in the same way and come up with the same

639
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: kind of stories and characters and moments. And it got harder,

640
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: and I think part of me too, there was something

641
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: pushing me more and more and more to write original material,

642
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: to be challenged, to throw myself off the deep end

643
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: and have to create a world of my own. You know.

644
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: I really just also wanted to I wanted to be

645
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: able to bring my a game, and I felt like,

646
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: I think I wanted a little bit of a new challenge.

647
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: But it was an incredibly difficult position, and um, I

648
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: wonder if I can tell the story, I'm gonna tell it,

649
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: and then I can just always ask him if it's

650
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: okay to say about whatever. I decided I was going

651
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: to leave, and it was incredibly difficult. Um, And I

652
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: told Jean, I said, you know, I'm gonna end up

653
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: telling Greig that I'm going to leave, and like it was,

654
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: you know, difficult for me, you know whatever, But I

655
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: just said, don't say anything. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna

656
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: do it, you know, But I just want to let

657
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know why. I just felt an

658
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: affinity to those guys. And Jeane laughed and he taught

659
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: me a lesson I keep to this day. He laughed

660
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: and he said, I think it's funny that you think

661
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of anything other than myself at any given moment. Like,

662
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell him. And I went up to

663
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: tell Greg, and this was a Friday, and I was like,

664
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get it over with and I go

665
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: to the I'll go to his office and I start crying,

666
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: like on the way to his office, and I was like,

667
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: not today. Ladies don't cry at work, which I have

668
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: cred at work. But I was like, so I just

669
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: turned around and I couldn't tell him. And then I

670
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: told him then on Monday, but I was just in

671
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: it was that painful. I just felt like I wanted

672
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: a new challenge. I loved everybody so much though, that

673
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: it was such a difficult decision, and I just felt like, um, yeah, yeah,

674
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: I remember you telling me on set. I don't know why,

675
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: but I just remember thinking, oh, well, that's a real loss.

676
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: Thank you for saying that. I it was really really

677
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: hard for me. I loved you guys, I mean I

678
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: just loved you, and it was awkward for me too,

679
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: because I felt like it was a hard thing to

680
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: explain because I didn't know how to say it, because

681
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: I didn't think the two things matched up. This was

682
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: the best job I ever had. It was the most

683
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: aligned with what I love to do. I love the

684
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: cast more than any other cast I've been with. I

685
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: love the writers, and so I was frustrating myself for

686
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: a while, and I spent some months trying to decide

687
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: it because I was like, what's wrong with my brain

688
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: that I can't say? I mean literally, I just like,

689
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: I just start being frustrated in myself of like, you know,

690
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: what the hell? But I think it was just wanting

691
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: at that point, and I had done other shows I

692
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: started at I started on Home Improvement, I came up

693
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: with whatever Wilson said, you know, like a lot of

694
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: the Wilson stuff in his backyard. So I've been writing

695
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: for a long time, and I think I wasn't necessarily

696
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: brave enough to go out and try to write things

697
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: of my own. And I think the Office. In fact,

698
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: just remembering this right now, when I was telling Greg this,

699
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: I felt like I was brave enough and confident enough

700
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: to go off and do my own things because of

701
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: my experience on the Office. And He's like, I did

702
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,959
Speaker 1: this to you. I created this, I created you wanted

703
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: to leave. I was like, so, yeah, it was a difficult.

704
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: It was really difficult for me. Um, why do you think, well,

705
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: the show is bigger now in pop culture than it

706
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: ever was when it was airing on NBC on Thursday nights.

707
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: Why do you think people are connecting to it like

708
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: they haven't or not that they haven't, But why has

709
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: it become such a phenomenon? Well, um, maybe the part

710
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: A is to just compliment it. But I'm just I

711
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: just think Greg and you guys, and you know, everybody

712
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: created such a kind of almost timeless comedy show where

713
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: it's like you very much relate to the people, and

714
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 1: there's such heart and it was well written. The actors,

715
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: everybody brought such comedy and some pathos and everything to it.

716
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: So I think that it's one of those like lightning

717
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: in a bottle things where everything coalesced at the right

718
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: all together to create this thing. And then I think

719
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: people don't sit down to watch TV at a certain

720
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: time on a certain night. It's like people want to

721
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: have it when they want to have it. They want

722
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: to like I think I read Billie Eilish has watched

723
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: every episode eleven times, and she said that she has

724
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: it on the in the background sometimes when she's just

725
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: in her tour bus likes other things to do, Like

726
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: I feel like there's something kind of comforting about at

727
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: the relationships that you relate to and that there's it's

728
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: so real, but you want to be able to put

729
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: it on when you want to put it on, and

730
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: especially younger people, so that they just can, you know,

731
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: watch it whenever they want to digest it and watch it.

732
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: And so I also think that there's something happening right

733
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: now where everybody is so fragment and everybody is so divided.

734
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: There's a comfort that comes, which is weird because I

735
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: think it is subversive and it is crazy, but there's

736
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 1: a comfort that it's like I know these people, They're

737
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 1: like me, I know these people. I feel safe here

738
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: instead of like, you know, whatevers go else is going

739
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: on around you. You can kind of retreat into that

740
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 1: in a weird way. I felt that way when the Mr.

741
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: Rogers movie. I was like, oh God, just come hug

742
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: me and Mr Rodgers again and again. And there's like

743
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: a weird thing which is subversive and it you know,

744
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: but I do think that you feel like you know them,

745
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: you feel like they're family, and then it makes you

746
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: feel you can kind of disappear with them and stay

747
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: with them for a while. It's not a one off

748
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: and you care about all you guys who cared about

749
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: the characters. Right. What are you most thankful for in

750
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 1: your experience on the show? Getting to be a part

751
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 1: of it? I mean really just getting to be there,

752
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: um I I would say overall, just being a part

753
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: of it, getting to be in that writer's room and

754
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: getting to work with you guys, getting to work with

755
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: the actors. Um. It made me realize what is possible

756
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: and what at the best something could be. Yeah, I

757
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: just feel so. I feel so lucky and grateful. On

758
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: on a on a smaller note, I think you know,

759
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: I was talking about Greg and him being brave. I

760
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: also think that he hired people that he believed in,

761
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: but he also trusted them, and so there were some moments.

762
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: There was a moment that really helped me, and this

763
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: is actually what I was referencing when I was leaving

764
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: the show. Um, there was a moment with grief counseling

765
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: actually where Greg got it and Steve got it and

766
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: I got it, but it was a hard episode to

767
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: put flags on and say this is what's happening to

768
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 1: the character because it was so internal, and I think

769
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: we had some notes of like make sure the audience

770
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: understands what's happening. And knew I knew, Steve did, I

771
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: knew Greg didn't. I know I did it. But are

772
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: people going to be a little confused with this? Are

773
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: they not? So? Greg went through my episode and was

774
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 1: maybe trying to put little sign posts that if we

775
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: needed them, great, they're there. If not, we'll pull him

776
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: out in editing, and he was trying to sort of

777
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: navigate this and I had written it in a way

778
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: that it was difficult to do that. So after about

779
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: six or eight hours for Better for Wars, I don't

780
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: think it was all like beautifully written in a way

781
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: that was intractable, but like I think that it was

782
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: everything depended on the last thing. He was one of

783
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: those where it was like he was literally going through

784
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: all the stages of grief, and Greg at one point

785
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: came to me and said, I want you to go

786
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: into your office. I want you to think about anything

787
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: that we did to try to put the signposts in

788
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: or any jokes that you know, we came up with

789
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: that we should add or not add or whatever whatever,

790
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: And I want you to figure out what do you

791
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: want it to be? What do you not wanted to

792
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: be one of those things? Do you want? And then

793
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: we're going to shoot whatever you come out of your

794
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: office with. And that moment was like, Okay, there was

795
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,439
Speaker 1: such faith and such trust, and that gave me such

796
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: a huge lift, I mean in my career, in my

797
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: own confidence level, and that actually I referenced when I

798
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: was leaving. He's like, wait a minute, I caused this,

799
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: But I think that personally, professionally writer wise, that meant

800
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: a lot to me because I had been on staffs

801
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: of shows where someone didn't get my sensibility, get my

802
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 1: sense of humor, or you spend a lot of time

803
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: trying to get something in someone else's voice that you

804
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: don't believe in as much. So I felt very grateful.

805
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: But the quick answer is I felt very grateful to

806
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: be at the party. Well, you've said a number of

807
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: times that their connection to us, but the characters are

808
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: creation by the actors in conjunction with the writers, and

809
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: your contribution to the show and your your leadership throughout

810
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: multiple seasons, but you leading it in one is some

811
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: huge Well thank you. I just thank you. I felt

812
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: so lucky to be there. Thank you, thank you so

813
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: much for coming in. Oh I hope so I took

814
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: you longer then I should have. I didn't even talk

815
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: about that. Can I tell you one quick thing? Oh yes,

816
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: I literally got talked to you once about it, not

817
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: not in a like, but like sure and Greg were like,

818
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: could you be a tiny bit more selective in the

819
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: amount of times you say that's what she said? But

820
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: that just made me in the room as a as

821
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: a person because constantly I so Greg ended up thinking

822
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: that there were two parts of my brain, one that

823
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: was thinking of comedy and story and the other one

824
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: was just trolling for that's what she said set up.

825
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 1: So what they did is they just made me more

826
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: clever about it. Like I would have scenarios where like

827
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: five people involved with it and it would be like

828
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: three levels of dialogue deep, and then I'd be like,

829
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: that's what she said. So it just made my brain

830
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: work harder. But I spent a lot of time I'm

831
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: up in the writers room saying that's what she said,

832
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: because I would constantly hear that set up? Who came

833
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 1: up with it? BJ? Brought it into the show? Um,

834
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: I think it was something that pre existed and then

835
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: he brought up brought it into the show. But it

836
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: was definitely b J. But I have been credited for

837
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: it only because I said so many times that people

838
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: are like, what the fuck? Yeah, no, b J brought

839
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 1: it up, but I took it in right. Um, Okay,

840
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: thank you? What did I tell you? Oh? Jen is

841
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: the absolute best. Thanks for joining me, Jen, I am

842
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: so glad that the world got to hear well from

843
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,919
Speaker 1: the woman behind the words. And to everyone else, thank

844
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: you for listening. And guess what ding ding ding ding ding?

845
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: Special announcement Why don't you come back tomorrow? Yeah, because

846
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: I am launching the rest of my conversation with our

847
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: spectacular writer Mike Sure or you might know him as

848
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 1: Dwight's weirdo cousin mows. See you tomorrow, everyone. The Office.

849
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,

850
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is

851
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: Tessa Kramer. Our producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia.

852
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our

853
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 1: theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend

854
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski.

855
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: Mmmmmmm