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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me. Trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lived. To you, I've never had a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two deconstructors who actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I am Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 5: And I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today is part two of our interview with Kyle and Cai,

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Speaker 2: former members of Megan's childhood.

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Speaker 5: Group, the two by Twos.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, we're going to discuss the Facebook group

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Speaker 2: they started from members who had left or we're thinking

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Speaker 2: about leaving the group, the overseer who was found dead

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Speaker 2: in a hotel and the letter that exposed his sexual abuse,

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Speaker 2: and how now that people had a place to actually

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Speaker 2: talk to each other more people began to share their stories.

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Speaker 1: They'll tell us about how they began to get NonStop

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Speaker 1: messages from survivors who'd been sexually abused by workers or

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Speaker 1: other members of the group, how hundreds of perpetrators have

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Speaker 1: been named, many by multiple victims, and how people are

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Speaker 1: now leaving or thinking about leaving, and how much of

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Speaker 1: this is shaking up the group. Also, a lot of

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Speaker 1: members Critical Thinking is coming back online, which is very

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Speaker 1: interesting to see.

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Speaker 2: I can imagine. So we're gonna skip cuiltiest thing this

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Speaker 2: week and just talk about this little bit. Megan, what

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Speaker 2: are your thoughts going into this episode? This is obviously

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Speaker 2: your childhood group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we get into it in the episode.

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Speaker 1: How shocking this all has been to me, and how

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Speaker 1: I've referred to this group as a cult on this

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Speaker 1: show for two years, almost jokingly or.

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Speaker 5: A little bit lightly.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea how deep this all really went,

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Speaker 1: and the last five months have been so hard to

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Speaker 1: wrap my mind around.

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Speaker 5: So I can't even.

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Speaker 1: Imagine what it's like for those who are still However,

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Speaker 1: these experiences pale in comparison to what's happened to survivors

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Speaker 1: of sexual abuse in this fellowship, and it's been happening

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Speaker 1: for decades, survivors have been ignored, called bitter or offended.

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Speaker 1: And let's be clear, this isn't a question of faith.

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Speaker 1: It is illegal, and they deserve all of our respect,

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Speaker 1: our compassion, and help getting these perpetrators held accountable. It's

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Speaker 1: our duty to help make sure this never happens again.

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Speaker 1: And if victims isn't a good enough reason to open

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Speaker 1: your eyes, perhaps your reputation will be. I've been contacted

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Speaker 1: by all of the big networks who want to make

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Speaker 1: documentaries about this. I've been contacted by the FBI. If

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Speaker 1: you think it's going away, it's simply not. You're going

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Speaker 1: to be held accountable one way or another. And I

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Speaker 1: can't even imagine if you're actually in it. So, although

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Speaker 1: the conversations have been very awkward, I have been sharing

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Speaker 1: with my family and people I still know in the

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Speaker 1: information coming to light, especially if I know they're not

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Speaker 1: getting it any other way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know, we see this in so many groups,

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Speaker 2: like with p people who are like genuinely authentically like

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Speaker 2: believe that child abuse is wrong, sexual abuse is wrong,

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Speaker 2: wholeheartedly are against it. But there's you know, like in

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Speaker 2: the FLDS and groups like that, they become so convinced

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Speaker 2: that it's a conspiracy or it was just a few

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Speaker 2: bad people. It wasn't you know, it's like not a

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Speaker 2: systemic problem, and like they're able to like that's how

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Speaker 2: they reconcile their cognitive dissonance. And in a case like this,

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Speaker 2: it's like, as we'll get into in the episode, like

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Speaker 2: the structure of the group fundamentally is dangerous, especially given

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Speaker 2: how the overseers were responding and probably still are responding.

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Speaker 2: I just yeah, I just can't imagine how earth shattering

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Speaker 2: this must be for everyone who was a part of

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Speaker 2: this group, especially people who are currently in it. And

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Speaker 2: more stuff is coming to light that we aren't even

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Speaker 2: going to get into in this episode because more information

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Speaker 2: is like still coming out, and we'll do a follow

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Speaker 2: up episode later on. But it's insane.

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Speaker 5: It's insane.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the craziest stories I've ever heard. And

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Speaker 1: I can't believe that I grew up in it. You know,

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Speaker 1: who's not surprised by those though, victims who've been living

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Speaker 1: with it their entire life, some of them trying to

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Speaker 1: report it. People who are ostracized and spoken about and

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Speaker 1: treated so unfairly, And there's no words.

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Speaker 5: My heart is broken for them.

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Speaker 2: If anyone doesn't want to like necessarily hear the whole thing,

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Speaker 2: but they want to get some information about where they

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Speaker 2: can get some help.

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Speaker 6: What are some resources?

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Speaker 1: Go email Kri and Kyle who ps are the most

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Speaker 1: amazing humans on the planet at x e X two

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Speaker 1: by two Just the Numbers two times two podcast at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com. They have so many resources that can

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Speaker 1: send to you. There's a hotline that you can call

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Speaker 1: if you have abuse you want to disclose, it's completely anonymous.

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Speaker 1: If you want to join the group and just talk

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Speaker 1: to other people, there's a million different ways to get

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Speaker 1: support around this, or even if you're still in and

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Speaker 1: you just want more information. So I would highly recommend

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Speaker 1: emailing them to get the resources sent to you.

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Speaker 2: Amen, And let's dive in with Kyle and Cary's do

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Speaker 2: people kind of know we're talking about?

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Speaker 5: If they don't know, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: The topic we're about to go into opens up a

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Speaker 1: whole new doorway where suddenly you're forced to be like,

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Speaker 1: we got to talk about some stuff, yeah, because this

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Speaker 1: is bad.

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Speaker 6: So I think in the as a whole, in the

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Speaker 6: I don't want to speak for the entire ex community.

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Speaker 6: But a theme that we saw come up again and again,

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Speaker 6: and I certainly felt this way, was that even even

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Speaker 6: if you, even though I know I had legitimate reasons

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Speaker 6: for leaving and other people have legitimate reasons for leaving,

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Speaker 6: there's always still this kind of general feeling that the

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Speaker 6: two by two still have the moral high ground over you.

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Speaker 6: So you don't want to upset them. You don't want

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Speaker 6: to step on any toes. You want to be the

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Speaker 6: peacemaker and just keep quiet and go on your own

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Speaker 6: way and let them live their life. That's definitely like

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Speaker 6: a general thing that we saw in our group prior

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Speaker 6: to four months ago.

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Speaker 5: What happened four months yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, let's get into current events. So four months ago,

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Speaker 6: somebody posted in our group and said, we heard that

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Speaker 6: there's an emergency meeting between workers and elders across certain

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Speaker 6: states and provinces in Canada, and like specifically, I think

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Speaker 6: it was Washington, Montana, and like across the western provinces

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Speaker 6: of Canada.

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Speaker 1: And it's worth saying before this point, the two by

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Speaker 1: two information highway was like you only got the information

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Speaker 1: that was meant for your specific province. There was no

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Speaker 1: shared information you had no idea what was happening in

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Speaker 1: the state next door.

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Speaker 6: So the fact that there were like workers and elders

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Speaker 6: getting together for some emergency meeting of we had idea

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Speaker 6: why at this point was really unusual, Like we'd never

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Speaker 6: heard of that happening. So we're like, what is going on,

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Speaker 6: Like what on earth could could like demand this really

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Speaker 6: important emergency meeting. There must be something big happening. So

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Speaker 6: of course we were like curious, and we were kind

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Speaker 6: of reaching out to different people in those areas and

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Speaker 6: trying to figure out what's going on ex members in

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Speaker 6: our group, And finally I got a private message from

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Speaker 6: somebody else who was like I got a letter from

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Speaker 6: somebody inside the church that they were not supposed to

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Speaker 6: get pictures of, but they got pictures of. And they're like,

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Speaker 6: I have this letter. I mean to send it to you.

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Speaker 6: And I was like okay, and they're like, this is

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Speaker 6: what all the emergency meetings are about. So they send

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Speaker 6: me this letter and we have to backtrack to June

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Speaker 6: twenty twenty two. There was a really well known overseer

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Speaker 6: in of like organ in southern Idaho. He was the

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Speaker 6: overseer of very well known, very well liked, very highly respected,

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Speaker 6: had been in the work for almost fifty years and

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Speaker 6: then had become overseer. I don't know how long he

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Speaker 6: was overseer for, but this letter was about him, and

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Speaker 6: it was written by the current overseer of Oregon. So

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Speaker 6: this man, the previous overseer, had died. He'd been found

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Speaker 6: dead in a hotel last June in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 6: Workers are not, which in and of itself was weird

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Speaker 6: because workers don't go to hotels. They stay with the friends. Like, yeah,

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Speaker 6: it was very weird. So everyone was kind of like, well,

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Speaker 6: maybe he had COVID and like was you know, wasn't

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Speaker 6: feeling good, thought he might infect people, so he stopped

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Speaker 6: at a hotel. Like nobody was really sure why he

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Speaker 6: did that, hm, but they kind of assumed, Oh, he

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Speaker 6: was feeling sick, and because COVID was sort of going

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Speaker 6: around at that point, he was like, oh, just stop

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Speaker 6: at a hotel. So he's found dead whatever. He had

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Speaker 6: a huge funeral, like between six to eight hundred people.

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Speaker 6: It was at a convention grounds. Life moved on. They

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Speaker 6: chose a new overseer for that area, and then back

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Speaker 6: to the end of March twenty twenty three this year,

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Speaker 6: this letter comes to me that was written by the

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Speaker 6: current overseer of who replaced him, basically his replacement, and

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Speaker 6: it was about him and it said like he this

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Speaker 6: letter stated that Dean, the guy, the overseer who died,

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Speaker 6: was a sexual predator and that he had abused children

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Speaker 6: and women. And the letter you know, went into detail

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Speaker 6: a little bit more than that, but that was like

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Speaker 6: the main point of it.

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Speaker 2: This was written by the new overseer.

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Speaker 6: The overseer who had taken Dean's place when he died. Yes,

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Speaker 6: And he wrote that they had when Dean died, they

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Speaker 6: had got his laptop to kind of like get his

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Speaker 6: schedules and stuff off. You know, he's an overseer who

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Speaker 6: was an important guy. He had schedules on his laptop,

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Speaker 6: and so in looking for those things they had found

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Speaker 6: how did they word it?

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Speaker 4: Like he used the term in criminating, which I think, well,

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Speaker 4: might it might depend an overstatement. It might not be

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Speaker 4: a criminal, but things.

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Speaker 6: Immoral things oftentimes laptop.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, oftentimes two by two pornography, Yeah, probably that it's

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Speaker 4: oftentimes two by twos use things like you know, criminal

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Speaker 4: use criminal language when they're talking about things that they

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Speaker 4: just morally.

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Speaker 6: Don't want and vice versa.

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Speaker 4: So it sounded even worse than it ended up being.

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Speaker 4: But he said there was incriminating things on his laptop.

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Speaker 6: Well it was. Yeah, to be clear, what he did

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Speaker 6: was very bad, but what was on his laptop wasn't

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Speaker 6: legal as far as we're aware. But he had other

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Speaker 6: things on their like receipts. Apparently he had stayed in

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Speaker 6: hotels a lot, and sometimes his receipts would let would

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Speaker 6: list two guests or you know, things like that. So

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Speaker 6: clearly he had done things that were both immoral and

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Speaker 6: illegal real quick.

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Speaker 4: So just to why it's important to know that he

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Speaker 4: had two guests. He was an overseer and he's also

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Speaker 4: traveling alone. He didn't have a field some of the time.

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Speaker 6: He was just which he would have set that up himself.

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Speaker 4: He would have set that up himself. He assigned himself

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Speaker 4: no companion, so when he was staying in a hotel

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Speaker 4: with two people, there was no companion.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, it wasn't his campaign.

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Speaker 4: Possible it could have been another worker traveling. We don't

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Speaker 4: really know, but it's it's definitely.

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Speaker 6: The implication was that it was somebody who should he

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Speaker 6: shouldn't have been with in the hotel. So this letter

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Speaker 6: just laid it out very clearly that he had abused

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Speaker 6: miners well into adulthood and adults.

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Speaker 2: And this was and he got this information from the

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Speaker 2: laptop or it was just something.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 6: Some after Dean died, some survivors came forward to the

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Speaker 6: workers from within the church shut it and told him

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Speaker 6: their stories.

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Speaker 4: They had come some of them had come forward by

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Speaker 4: this time, Is that right?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? So so like seven to nine months before this

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Speaker 6: letter came out is when they had found out all

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Speaker 6: of this stuff. So they hadn't told people for that

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Speaker 6: entire time.

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Speaker 1: And they didn't plan on telling everyone. They planned on

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Speaker 1: telling a few select group of people.

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Speaker 6: Right. So the letter was not according to the person

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Speaker 6: who sent us this letter within the church, the letter

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Speaker 6: was not ever intended to be distributed widely. They were

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Speaker 6: not supposed to copy it. They were supposed to read

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Speaker 6: it and hand it back to the overseers, and then

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Speaker 6: they were supposed to the elders were supposed to tell

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Speaker 6: their meetings. And I quote this person, be vague and

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Speaker 6: tell your meetings that Dean was an abuser. And this

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Speaker 6: person said, I have no intention of being vague, And

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Speaker 6: I think this is new information that needs to get

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Speaker 6: out there. So this currently professing two by two is

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Speaker 6: a damn hero. Yeah in our opinion. Yeah, because they

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Speaker 6: risked a lot to like get pictures of that thing

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Speaker 6: and get that sent to They sent it to our community.

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Speaker 6: So after freaking out for a while, because like we

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Speaker 6: all had this guy stay in our homes when we

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Speaker 6: were kids.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we'd known him since we were little. I'd known

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Speaker 4: my list and did didn't speak at convention since we

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Speaker 4: were literally had a very distinct speaking pattern. He was

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Speaker 4: well loved. You know, no one would have guessed something

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Speaker 4: like this.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we we four admins of our support group, Mike

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Speaker 6: and Abbey and Kyle and I talked about it and

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Speaker 6: decided this needs to be something that the church is

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Speaker 6: widely aware of because there might be other victims out

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Speaker 6: there too who you know, aren't going to get the

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Speaker 6: information and don't realize that there are others.

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Speaker 1: Or Yeah, because there's something about to the fields in Washington.

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Speaker 1: Are the elders in Washington? But he's backtly in different states,

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Speaker 1: He's traveled to conventions in different countries, he's been country

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Speaker 1: freeware all over. Then we don't share information that way,

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Speaker 1: it's so structured by fields, so none of these other

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Speaker 1: people are being warned, right.

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Speaker 2: Or but okay, sorry, just to get clear on the details.

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Speaker 2: So basically, like a few people knew that he had

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Speaker 2: abused people, and he died. The person who replaced him

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Speaker 2: was letting a few people know, and they weren't supposed

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Speaker 2: to talk about it in detail. Letting a few people

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Speaker 2: know that they were aware that he had abused some

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Speaker 2: children and some women.

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Speaker 6: Yes, but as far as I'm aware, nobody knew about

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Speaker 6: the abuse until after he had died, right, Okay.

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Speaker 4: And once they once the information got out, they said, well,

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Speaker 4: we had intended to tell anybody everybody eventually. We don't

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Speaker 4: know if they were going to or not.

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Speaker 6: But I can think that that wasn't our understanding.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but they did. Once it got out, they decided

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Speaker 4: to start telling people, So.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and what like, why did they even I'm like,

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Speaker 2: what was the plan with telling a few people the guys, diad,

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Speaker 2: what what is it like?

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Speaker 6: What is your wanting?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think, I mean, I can't speak for them,

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Speaker 6: but I think they wanted, particularly that just the places

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Speaker 6: that he had labored in recently to be aware in

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Speaker 6: case there might be other victims, right right. I think

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Speaker 6: that was kind of what they had in mind, But

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Speaker 6: I don't know for sure why they decided to tell

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Speaker 6: only certain meetings in certain areas what was happening. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: I'm not entirely sure about that, but that's just my guess.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, and the other reason we wanted to talk about

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Speaker 4: it too is because you know, obviously more victims is

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Speaker 4: a concern, but also in cases like this, where you're

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Speaker 4: being being very picky with how information gets out, wild

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Speaker 4: rumors get started really quickly. And I even tried to

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Speaker 4: give a few people heads up, like, hey, I have

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Speaker 4: the authentic copy if you hear crazy rumors, which we

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Speaker 4: did hear some real crazy rumors that we still hear

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Speaker 4: them that we know aren't true. You know, I was

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Speaker 4: trying to look out for the people inside still, like hey,

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Speaker 4: a really, really a thing that's going to make you

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Speaker 4: very sad is coming out. But you don't have to

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Speaker 4: believe the craziest room where you can believe that the

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Speaker 4: most on point, you know, worker released letter and that

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Speaker 4: even that wasn't very well received.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so abby. And I posted the letter publicly on

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Speaker 6: our Facebook and in our support group at the same

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Speaker 6: on our personal pages publicly and in our support group

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Speaker 6: and maybe Instagram too, I think, although that wouldn't have

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Speaker 6: been public in my case, but yeah, and it went

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Speaker 6: within the sense of like people amongst the church. It

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Speaker 6: went viral amongst those people, and there were definitely people

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Speaker 6: who thought it had been made up or you know,

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Speaker 6: that's still there were even people who were saying that, like,

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Speaker 6: somebody must be controlling the overseer who wrote this letter.

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Speaker 6: You know, there were all kinds of weird rumors and

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Speaker 6: some conspiracies about that. But but yeah, ultimately the letter

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Speaker 6: got passed around quite a bit, and then a couple

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Speaker 6: of days later, I got a private message from a

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Speaker 6: survivor with allegations against another really well known overseer current one,

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Speaker 6: a current over that we also grew up having in

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Speaker 6: our homes, and like this one was. Yeah, this was

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Speaker 6: a tough one for me to hear, but I of

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Speaker 6: course like believed this person and at this about that

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Speaker 6: same time, fortunately for this survivor, a couple of other

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Speaker 6: survivors of this same person with allegations came to some

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Speaker 6: people in the church, so I didn't have to share

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Speaker 6: that news like that came out from the church itself,

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Speaker 6: and that overseer voluntarily stepped down from his position as overseer.

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Speaker 6: But it took us again releasing the email from the

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Speaker 6: workers about this guy publicly to really get pressure put

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Speaker 6: on them to remove him from the work and from

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Speaker 6: meetings entirely.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I was just going to say, which brings

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Speaker 1: up an important point about people who are accused or

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Speaker 1: even found guilty, still being allowed to attend meetings with children.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes yes, people in the meetings aren't aware that

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Speaker 1: that person is a perpetrator.

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Speaker 2: And mind you, meetings are not in a church, they're

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Speaker 2: in homes, and these people live with us.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, right, the ministers stay in the homes too,

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Speaker 4: som hm. So there was a mediate concern. Yeah, might imagine.

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Speaker 6: Yeah there, Yeah, it was a big concern. I mean,

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Speaker 6: like growing up as a little girl in a meeting home,

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Speaker 6: having brother workers stay.

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Speaker 4: In my home, these brother workers potentially.

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Speaker 6: And these brother workers too, but just any brother workers

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Speaker 6: in general. I was often told like now you remember, like,

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Speaker 6: don't wear your nighty downstairs, because we don't want to

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Speaker 6: attempt the brother workers. You know, I'm five, and I'm like.

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Speaker 5: Oh hey, oh my god.

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Speaker 6: You know, so it was very much like and I

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Speaker 6: was lucky in the sense that I grew up I

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Speaker 6: think with a mother who was very aware and very protective.

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Speaker 6: And even in our own home we had workers before

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Speaker 6: we left meeting Stan our home and we would always

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Speaker 6: have the children sleep, our kids sleep in our room

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Speaker 6: like it just was something we did without really thinking

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Speaker 6: about it.

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Speaker 4: Which sounds back then, but it's just what we did.

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Speaker 4: You know. Yeah, strangers in your house and your kids

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Speaker 4: sleep where they can't get to them. Yeah, right, it's

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Speaker 4: wild to say out loud, but that's that's how we were.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's normal, you know.

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Speaker 5: For that's so interesting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: She talks about etiquette, get your bangers out of your mouth.

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Speaker 3: She talks about where to find a deal.

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Speaker 5: You know, if you sell me something on Instagram, I

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Speaker 5: buy it.

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Speaker 3: Whoever markets to me does a fabulous job. She talks

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Speaker 3: about the economy. We used to joke that'll be the

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Speaker 3: thing to send them to therapy. Okay, we're creating jobs.

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Speaker 5: Can we look at it that way?

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Speaker 3: She talks about parenting.

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Speaker 1: These kids want to come home, they don't want to leave,

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Speaker 1: they don't want to drive, they want to stay.

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Speaker 3: In the womb. Let's talk with Heather Debre every Thursday

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Speaker 3: on podcast one or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so it started within that same week, us four

397
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Speaker 6: admins of the support group started getting private messages just

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Speaker 6: pouring in from survivors, just crazy, NonStop. It literally became

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Speaker 6: a full time job for me and Kyle would go

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Speaker 6: to work and come home and just work on it NonStop,

401
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Speaker 6: and we'd be up all like all hours of the night.

402
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Speaker 6: Kyle gets up super early for work, so I'd go

403
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Speaker 6: to bed really late and he get up super early,

404
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Speaker 6: and we were just answering messages from person after person after.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever messaged Youkriy without you getting

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Speaker 1: immediately back to me. You have become from the hotline,

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Speaker 1: and I think in my experience, you guys have like

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Speaker 1: taken the place of a lot of our parents, like

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Speaker 1: and my Psyche.

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Speaker 5: They got it, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, y'all, it was your job. It's a

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Speaker 1: full time job and you Yeah, and.

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Speaker 6: On top of that, we were running the support group still,

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Speaker 6: which is you know, to work too. But yeah, so

415
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Speaker 6: we had a lot of survivors from the community, but

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Speaker 6: then we also had a lot of people from within

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Speaker 6: the church because we had shared information publicly, they started

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Speaker 6: following us on social media, like because they were not

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Speaker 6: receiving news from within their church, so it was coming

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Speaker 6: from the ex community. And we were very careful with

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Speaker 6: what we posted, like mostly what we shared were emails

422
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Speaker 6: that were being circulated by workers, but not being circulated.

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Speaker 6: They were like being circulated just to a couple of meetings,

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Speaker 6: and we were like, well, this is about somebody with allegations.

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Speaker 6: It needs to be known, like widely known. So we

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Speaker 6: would share it on our Facebook or every once in

427
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Speaker 6: a while there was a survivor that would share a

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Speaker 6: story on their Facebook, like they wanted to go public,

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Speaker 6: and we would just kind of provide a platform and

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Speaker 6: reshare it to amplify that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we kind of What happened is that people realized

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Speaker 4: pretty quickly that we turned into sort of a clearinghouse

433
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Speaker 4: for this stuff. We weren't releasing any new information. We

434
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Speaker 4: weren't like releasing allegations or anything. We were just saying like,

435
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Speaker 4: here's what's going around. Yeah, we're very careful with it,

436
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 4: but it was here's here's what's going around. And as such,

437
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 4: people started realizing that we would listen also, and so

438
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Speaker 4: people who've been sitting on stories for their whole lives.

439
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Speaker 4: Some of them maybe a few years, some of them

440
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Speaker 4: years and years and years, twenty thirty years. Hey, this

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Speaker 4: happened to me a long time ago. I've never dealt

442
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 4: with it. Can I tell you about it? And Carie

443
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 4: would get I mean, how many at the peak? How

444
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 4: many stories per day? Just you? And mind you there's

445
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 4: four admins.

446
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 6: Twelve to fifteen a day at least. I had people

447
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 6: messaging me like, Hey, do you have a copy of

448
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 6: this email that was sent around to like the Minnesota

449
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 6: feel because I really need to see it because I

450
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 6: think I had this guy stay in my home and

451
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 6: I'd be like, sure, here's the email, and inevitably they'd

452
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 6: be like, oh yeah, and also so and so.

453
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 4: Abused me right, and so it got so busy. I

454
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 4: want to give a shout out to the other two.

455
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 4: We brought on two more admins, Jenny Jennifer, and carry

456
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 4: shout out to them for helping us just run the

457
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 4: group for a while and they're kind of emeritis status

458
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 4: now they're with us. We had six people just like

459
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 4: running a phone bank, kind of people just just contacting

460
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 4: us saying, hey, I hear there's a you know, my

461
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 4: elder got which is the one who runs the meetings,

462
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 4: got a message, but I don't know what it says.

463
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 4: Who's this about? Like I was abused a long time ago.

464
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 4: Do you have you guys heard this name? Yeah, you

465
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 4: started hearing names over and over and yeah, twelve to

466
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 4: some of the stories.

467
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 6: Like people just wanted someone to listen to them, and

468
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 6: here we are, like we're not professionals. We were sending

469
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 6: them to sources like rain is a really good one.

470
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 6: Sometimes we were handing out suicide hotlines because people were

471
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 6: in immediate mental health crises, or sending them recommending sometimes

472
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 6: that they go to the hospital. And also listening to

473
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 6: incredibly difficult, traumatic stories about people that we knew growing

474
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 6: up personally, Like we knew the people with allegations, and

475
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 6: we knew the survivors, and it was just so incredibly

476
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 6: just traumatic for us too in that way, like nothing

477
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 6: compared to what the what victims and survivors have gone through.

478
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 6: But being somewhat prominent in the ex community, there are

479
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 6: often rumors about us that like, oh, they want this

480
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 6: makes them happy to see the church go down in flames,

481
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 6: and they want to tear it down and they they're

482
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 6: reveling in this. That was not the case at all,

483
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 6: Like this, this is the community we grew up in.

484
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 6: These were our family members, some of them who told

485
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 6: us stories that we had never heard before. Our friends,

486
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 6: like people we grew up meeting with, people we grew

487
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 6: up seeing every year at convention. This was our community

488
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 6: going through an extremely traumatic experience, and it was just

489
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 6: so like we were grieving right along with them.

490
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, the stories were just wild too. And then there's

491
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 4: also the cognitive being experienced by everybody. You know, our

492
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 4: our deconstruction lasted a year and a half and it

493
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 4: was terrible. And now we're seeing people, we're having victims

494
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 4: come out that are feeling glad to be heard. But

495
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 4: then we're also dealing with people who who can't square

496
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 4: all of it in their heads and they're just losing

497
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 4: their minds. There was one period, yeah, and which is

498
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 4: of course we feel terrible about that. There was one

499
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 4: period where I was talking to someone on the phone

500
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 4: and they were pretty incredulous about it, and they're like, well,

501
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 4: I hope you have the right reason to do what

502
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 4: you're doing. I hope you're being honest. And I was like,

503
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 4: let me be really clear. Cary's in the other room

504
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 4: right now, setting up a welfare check for someone who's suicidal.

505
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 4: So yes, it's real, and no, I'm not enjoying this.

506
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 4: And Cary, that's what she was doing. She was calling

507
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 4: friends of somebody we had some connections to say, Hey,

508
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 4: can you go to this person's house. They're having a

509
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 4: very tough time. That was a day for us. That

510
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 4: was a Tuesday.

511
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 2: It seems like that happens quite a bit. I've seen

512
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 2: it a bit with my mom and other communities that

513
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 2: I'm aware of or connected to. Whenever there's someone who

514
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 2: is the messenger of some very emotionally difficult information, it

515
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 2: brings out all kinds of moods and reactions and accusations.

516
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 2: And it's not an easy position to be in. And

517
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: I think you guys are very brave and very strong

518
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 2: for managing it as well as you have.

519
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you, thank you.

520
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 5: I was just going to add that. What was I

521
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 5: going to add? I don't know. I was going to

522
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 5: add that.

523
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: Somebody close to me and my family said to me,

524
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: it's hard to know who's trying to burn it down

525
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: and who's trying to clean it out.

526
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 5: And I was like I heard that.

527
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people have an issue

528
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: with really sweet people gathering in homes and talking about Jesus.

529
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 5: That sounds cool to me. But totally there is going

530
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 5: to have to.

531
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: Be a big reckoning because right now we have I

532
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: don't know the official one, there's maybe, but there's another

533
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: group that's saying there's like six hundred plus perpetrators at

534
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: this point.

535
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: Perpetrators not victims with allegations. With allegations, yes, people.

536
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 6: With allegations from within the church. Over the last number

537
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 6: I heard was like over five point fifty.

538
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is bonkers because the church.

539
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 6: And a lot of them have more than one victim. Oh,

540
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 6: more than one allegation, I should say, right.

541
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, how many workers are there total? Approximately?

542
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 5: Do we know?

543
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 4: Well, it hasn't just been workers either, It's been it's

544
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 4: been other people. People are coming forward with stories about

545
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 4: just you know, family members and things like that too,

546
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 4: you know, because it's these stories that have been held

547
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 4: down for so long. Are people are feeling more bold

548
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 4: about coming forward now realizing that hey, there's a community

549
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 4: out there. And by the way, these are true, believing people.

550
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 4: These are not people trying to burn it all down.

551
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 4: These are primarily I would say, at least first I

552
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 4: would say the majority maybe are people who are on

553
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 4: the inside who just want to go back to, you know,

554
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 4: having the Bible studies and the homes. They're not trying

555
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 4: to burn it down. They're just they're being heard for

556
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 4: the first time and they need that for them.

557
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 6: It does need to heal. It does seem like a

558
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 6: large percentage, maybe even the majority of people with allegations

559
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 6: at least from the stories that we heard, were workers

560
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,479
Speaker 6: and elders, though, like people in places of authority, where

561
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 6: it's very very difficult for your average church member to

562
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 6: come out and say this person did something to me

563
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 6: because there's a power imbalance.

564
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 4: And there's also one of the difficulties too, is that

565
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 4: it's hard to even address it without sort of having

566
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 4: a mini faith crisis as part of it, because you're

567
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 4: raised to believe. Hey, these people give up everything they

568
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 4: have and they're called by God to go in and

569
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 4: deliver the gospel. Yeah, and so these people are living

570
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 4: out their faith in a way that very few people

571
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 4: on earth do right there. And so, you know, if

572
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 4: you're a true believing and you're on the inside it's

573
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 4: like these people mean it. It's God is helping them,

574
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 4: and so to then hear, oh, actually they had a

575
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 4: double life and they were doing something terrible. It doesn't

576
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 4: even to a believing mind, it doesn't make sense. It's

577
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 4: very hard. It's a mini faith crisis, like hitting a

578
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 4: wall at one hundred miles an hour.

579
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, when I was professing, I believed like God

580
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 6: gives the worker special powers to stay celibate and to like, oh,

581
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 6: stay faithful. And scattered into all of these allegations were

582
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 6: people coming forward to us like I know this worker

583
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 6: who had an affair, and I know this worker who

584
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 6: slept around a lot. And there were actually workers sending

585
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 6: out their own emails like I've had affairs and I've

586
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 6: hidden it for years and I'm going to step down

587
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 6: because of it. Yeah, everybody married because they were expected

588
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 6: to stay celibate. But like there was that going on too,

589
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 6: So all of a sudden, people are realizing like, oh,

590
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 6: the workers are actually very, very human and have sexual

591
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 6: human needs.

592
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're not these you know.

593
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: And we really haven't hit the living witness doctrine yet,

594
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: but essentially there's like a doctrine that we're taught that is,

595
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: unless you're told the gospel from a worker, you have

596
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: not heard it.

597
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 6: So these are preaching gospel.

598
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: You wrote down some things, our connection to God, the

599
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: only connection to God on this planet, and kind of

600
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: pointing to a different topic. But also, you know, a

601
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: lot of the people who have gotten to the top

602
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: of the power structures are predatory, in my opinion, covering up,

603
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: sending people to different fields, sending.

604
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 6: People toations of people who are complicit.

605
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 5: Sending people developing countries.

606
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: So these people going to have thousands of victims, god

607
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: knows where, just thousands upon thousands of victims.

608
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 6: It became really obvious the more stories we heard that

609
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 6: people who had experienced abuse often did try to tell

610
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 6: somebody like their workers, and the consequence was basically they

611
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 6: were told, usually more often than not, to keep quiet

612
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 6: about it, and that in that worker, if it was

613
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 6: allegations against a worker would be moved to a different country,

614
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 6: at used a different state.

615
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 4: They'd be moved around, and some of them were moved

616
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 4: around five or six times.

617
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 5: How's the Catholic Church? But the priests are living in

618
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 5: our houses right, Yeah?

619
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 6: Because the workers don't. The workers don't choose, usually for themselves,

620
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 6: where to preach, Like, they're sent to different states in

621
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 6: different countries, so they would just shuffle around and move on.

622
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 6: Every once in a while, someone would disappear from the

623
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 6: work and nobody would ask questions and that would be

624
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 6: the end of it.

625
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: So what do you know right now in terms of

626
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: how the higher ups are sort of dealing with this

627
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: like huge paradigm shift and crisis of faith that everyone

628
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: is having, and like the knowledge that there's been so

629
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: much abuse that's happened and been covered up.

630
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 6: So what we've noticed from our perspective is that there's

631
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 6: a really big disconnect right now between some of the

632
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 6: friends and almost all of the workers, especially professing people

633
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 6: kind of in our age range with children. They're very

634
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 6: concerned and there's a lot of now that everything has

635
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 6: been shared. This took quite a couple of months to

636
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 6: get to this point, but there is a lot of

637
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 6: internal pressure now, an advocacy for change within the church,

638
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 6: and from what I have seen, the vast majority of

639
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 6: the workers are trying to fall back on historical ways

640
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 6: of dealing with it, which is, let's try to keep

641
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 6: this problem localized, pretend it's a local problem, thoughts, cover

642
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 6: it up worse, you know, very versus maybe move this

643
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 6: person to a different province or a different state and

644
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 6: just kind of pretended not happening. And that is still continuing,

645
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 6: like it's convention season right now, and some of the

646
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 6: things the workers are preaching show very much that they're

647
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 6: extremely disconnected from what a problem this is. Well, a

648
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 6: lot of them, sorry, as victims.

649
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of them think that

650
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: this is the cleansing before Jesus comes back to the earth.

651
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 5: Yea, starting down?

652
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, in what way?

653
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 5: This is just like the last and final test?

654
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 6: Are falling away?

655
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 5: Falling away from the Bible?

656
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: Are you going to stay and keep your face or

657
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: are you going to run away and take the easy

658
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: way out and go to hell?

659
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: Like they think, it's almost like persecution, all of these accusations.

660
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 4: It's a test, yes, No, it's being processed internally, especially

661
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 4: with the senior workers. It's being processed as.

662
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 6: Persecution against the ministry specific.

663
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 4: A lot of the we've listened into a lot of

664
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 4: the talks, there's a lot of them online and stuff

665
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 4: now on the phone or whatever, and it's almost unanimous,

666
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 4: well that we're going through a storm right now. It's

667
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 4: it's very much we this is happening to us. It

668
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 4: doesn't it's not a thing that we need to deal with.

669
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 4: It's a thing that's happening to us. Wow. We listened

670
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 4: to an overseer just the other night say that a

671
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 4: lot of people are asking me what I'm gonna do,

672
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 4: and I told them, I'm not going to do anything.

673
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 4: I'm gonna let God work. We're gonna let God work

674
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 4: on this one's going the people, anybody who has kids

675
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 4: or you know, younger, are going, that's what you already

676
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 4: were doing though, right where we are. And so we've

677
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 4: seen in a way that we've never seen in our

678
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 4: entire lifetimes. There's a lot of conversation going on. Like

679
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 4: we were saying, we didn't growing up. We just went

680
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 4: to our meetings and we lived our lives and we

681
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 4: didn't talk about it much. And you know, from our

682
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 4: Facebook group, there's there's been a lot of you know,

683
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 4: spinoffs to other groups forming and even the people in

684
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 4: the meetings have formed their own online group and have

685
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 4: have just started talking about stuff, just just started saying.

686
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 6: Jin of itself is very very niw, which.

687
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 4: Is crazy because they're saying things. I mean, we we

688
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 4: grew up. I was to the overseers when I was younger.

689
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 4: I'll be honest. They were big, old, powerful men who

690
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 4: were grumpy and I didn't want to cross them. And

691
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 4: now people are speaking very directly to the problems, like hey,

692
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 4: you need to fix this, or we need to do

693
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 4: something else, and I think that's been It's scary from

694
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 4: their standpoint. It's chaotic looking, but I think it's the

695
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 4: first time they've maybe had some real healthy conversations about

696
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 4: the beliefs and what to do with how they're set up.

697
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 4: And I don't know where it's going to end up.

698
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 4: It's sad to watch. Somebody in our group mentioned something

699
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 4: I keep using this phrase. They said, it's like watching

700
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 4: our childhood home burn. And that's how it feels. It

701
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 4: doesn't feel good at all. It feels like it's burning down.

702
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 6: But while the workers are saying, just focus on Jesus.

703
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll get through this storm. We just have to

704
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 4: write out the storm, and then there's people like, no,

705
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 4: this needs to burn for a bit, we need to

706
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 4: work this out.

707
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, I wrote down a quote that we heard just

708
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 6: yesterday when we called into a meeting. And after this,

709
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 6: they're probably gonna like kick us out. So we can't

710
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 6: do that anymore because they probably don't ordering nothing. But

711
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 6: this one worker said this. One worker said it. He's

712
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 6: referencing a Bible story about like a troubling report. And

713
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 6: I don't remember what the Bible story is, but he says,

714
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 6: it wasn't the evil in the land that was troubling

715
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 6: the people, but the report because people believed it. If

716
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 6: the report is troubling, then it is evil. We have

717
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 6: to be careful about the reports that we are listening to.

718
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 6: If we believe an evil report, we will be angry

719
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 6: and upset and we won't enter God's kingdom.

720
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: Wow, the fact that the report is troubling makes it evil.

721
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 6: Report is the evil troubling thing, No, the actual event.

722
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 6: And another worker said he put out an email that

723
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 6: said there is no crisis. Some think there's a crisis

724
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 6: in the church right now, but there is no crisis.

725
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 6: Everything is under God's control.

726
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 2: I just feel like I'm just picturing them all with

727
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: their fingers and ears going la la la, la, la

728
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: la la, you know, like it's it's right, It's right there,

729
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: you guys.

730
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: Well, it was very strange to witness the first emails

731
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: that came out because you were like, oh my, okay, wow,

732
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: this is we haven't really talked about this either, So

733
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: I'm just going to spark note to cover this.

734
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 5: You know, we're taught this came from Jesus.

735
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 6: It didn't.

736
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: It was started by a guy named William Irving and

737
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety five and so yeah about that, yeah, about

738
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 1: that time. So this whole thing is kind of built

739
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: upon a lie. Right again, fine, meet and homes, have

740
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: a great time, whatever you want to do. But there's

741
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: just all this crumbling and I forgot my point, but

742
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: it was really important and you guys would have loved

743
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 1: us well.

744
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 6: So like you said, Megan earlier, you said, like our

745
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 6: impression and I agree completely, was that even when you've

746
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 6: left your impression, it is like, but it's pretty harmless,

747
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 6: Like it's a sweet little group and they're quiet and

748
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 6: they stick to themselves and they just want to meet

749
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 6: in homes and do their things, no harm, no foul.

750
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 6: And now it's like, okay, there is a lot of harm.

751
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 6: And it's structural. Yes, it's down to the foundations of

752
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 6: the exclusivity and the patriarchy.

753
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 5: Hiding, the founder hiding.

754
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 6: Talking against the fear of talking against workers. Yeah. Absolutely,

755
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 6: all of that is very structural.

756
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 4: So on the one hand, you have dismissive talk from

757
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 4: some of the you know, the senior brother workers, the

758
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 4: older guys, and on the other hand, in the past

759
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 4: how many months has it been this is late March,

760
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 4: four months are almost five feels from nine to about

761
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 4: three thousand people.

762
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, we're almost at three thousand now. So on top

763
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 6: of all of the stories that we were fielding, our

764
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 6: group was just growing like crazy, and a lot of

765
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 6: those people were ex members who were just finding out

766
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 6: about our group because we were you know, sharing church

767
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 6: news publicly, and then people were like, oh yeah, Kyle

768
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 6: and carry they have this core group, but a very

769
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 6: large percentage are people who are currently leaving the church

770
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 6: over the current abuse crises and how it's being handled

771
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 6: or not being handled, or considering leaving. So there is

772
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 6: like and normally our group is only for ex members,

773
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 6: but we've kind of relaxed that in the last few

774
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 6: months and let people who are like needing support to

775
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 6: decide whether or not they can imagine leaving the church.

776
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 4: We've always invited people who were you know, questioning or

777
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 4: just wanted to talk about it or whatever. But there's

778
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 4: just so many of those.

779
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, there were like only a few before.

780
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so we vet every single person, but for

781
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 4: about two months we were adding one person per hour

782
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 4: on a We're vetting them and talking to them and everything. Wow,

783
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 4: because there's just so much. And that's just people who

784
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 4: are out. There's also all the people who are in

785
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 4: who are meeting up separately, who are having meetings without

786
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 4: the workers. There's many people who who still believe, still

787
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 4: want a worship together, have just stopped supporting the workers.

788
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 4: They don't go to the GOSS meetings and the missions anymore.

789
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're like, we're not going to give them money anymore.

790
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 4: And there's a lot of those people and.

791
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 6: Listen to them preach anymore. Or we're going to have

792
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 6: our own unsanctioned meetings, which means like a meeting that

793
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 6: isn't you know, put together by the workers.

794
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm chaotic.

795
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: If if the workers are like the workers are like

796
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: the whole structure. So if the workers are no longer work.

797
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: The workers are who we were taught to worship, right

798
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: because they we can't talk about God because we don't

799
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: understand it because they explain it, but they don't they

800
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 1: just explain that everything else is wrong if.

801
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 2: The if the trust is gone in the workers, then

802
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 2: what do you even have?

803
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 6: Like that's you guess.

804
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 5: People are rediscovering. Yeah, and yeah, I mean that there.

805
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 6: Are still a lot of church members who believe like, well,

806
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 6: this is God's true ministry that he set up and

807
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 6: he's just cleaning house right now, and yeah, you know,

808
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 6: we'll just kind of stick our heads in the sand

809
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 6: and it'll.

810
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 4: Blow over, and they're probably right. I mean, I think

811
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 4: that some people have said, like, oh, do you think

812
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 4: this will oh wait, now, like the two by twos

813
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 4: will just completely disappear, and it's like, no, that's not

814
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 4: going to happen. They'll they'll always be people who just

815
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 4: want to do that part, who just want to meet

816
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 4: in some homes and have Bible studies and be cool. Yeah,

817
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 4: but there's definitely some changes going on.

818
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, it's been definitely the biggest shakeup that

819
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 6: I think has ever happened in church history. And tell

820
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 6: them about the book about the Church's history.

821
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 4: Because yeah, so I should.

822
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 6: That's an amazing book.

823
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, Megan, you've mentioned the living Winness doctrine. I want

824
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 4: to recommend a book for people who are interested.

825
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 6: In It just came out last year.

826
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 4: I hope I say your name right, noo, tell me.

827
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 4: It's a book called Preserving the Truth. It's somebody who's

828
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 4: been researching the group for years. Her name is Sherry

829
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 4: Sherry crop Eric. It's on Amazon. I've never met her,

830
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 4: but I recommend this book to everybody. I bought it

831
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 4: for people. It's it's she's documented the group from the

832
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 4: very very beginning, has done like thirty years of research

833
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 4: or something, just an incredible amount of research. Very well.

834
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 5: I mean it's incredible.

835
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: You get you get newspaper articles from Ireland in eighteen

836
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 1: ninety seven being.

837
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 5: Like William Irvine's annoying us, like he's pure.

838
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 6: It's so bizarre, and you know what, And the other

839
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,720
Speaker 6: really interesting thing is we I knew about William Irvine

840
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 6: maybe from my teens. I just kind of heard the

841
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 6: name going around and I asked my parents, like, who's

842
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 6: this William Irvine guy? And they were like, well, and

843
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 6: not just my parents, but a lot of people taught

844
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 6: that William Irvine was like one of the workers who

845
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 6: kind of you know, the truth had to go underground

846
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 6: for a while because it wasn't safe during you know,

847
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 6: like the era in England where they were persecuting people

848
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 6: who weren't Catholic and this and that for whatever reason,

849
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 6: like when when it wasn't safe for religions they went underground.

850
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 6: And then these workers in Ireland helped kind of revive

851
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 6: it and bring it back into sort of like I

852
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 6: don't know, it's like popularity, it's not the right word.

853
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 6: But basically, he they believed he was. He was an

854
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 6: early worker, but still just another worker who went rogue

855
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 6: and was kicked out, which is true. He was kicked

856
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 6: out of the religion that he found nice, yeah, of course,

857
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 6: and so that's what I believe, like, oh, William Rmyn,

858
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 6: He's just just he was just another worker, and yeah

859
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 6: he was important. He converted a lot of people, but

860
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 6: then he was kicked out and went crazy, and so

861
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 6: we don't really talk about him. What I didn't know

862
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 6: was that there was so much information, so very well sourced,

863
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 6: tracking his exact movements from leaving this faith that still exists,

864
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 6: and he took so much terminology from them. He just

865
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 6: copied the hard this oh yeah, completely starting this religion.

866
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 6: And and then there was like this concerted, purposeful effort

867
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 6: in the church around maybe our grandparents' generation, to kind

868
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 6: of erase his history from the church. And I always

869
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 6: thought like, oh, over time people just stopped talking about him. No,

870
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 6: there are photographs that originally had William Ermine in them,

871
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 6: and he was cut out of the photographs. It was

872
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 6: very and people preaching about him would be like listing

873
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 6: early workers and they'd be like, oh, we are so

874
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 6: thankful for the faith of this guy and that lady

875
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 6: and this guy and that Scottish worker, but they wouldn't

876
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 6: name him, like there was a concerted I think he

877
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 6: was Scottish.

878
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 5: It was Scottish, but then was in the Ireland he went,

879
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 5: I remember.

880
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 6: So it was a very purposeful effort to like cut

881
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 6: him out of church history after they kicked him out.

882
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 4: To make it look more like it had gone back

883
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 4: forever Jesus right.

884
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

885
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: He copied it from something called the Faith Mission. And

886
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: you know, his as his mental health deteriorated at the

887
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 1: turn of the century, it kind of took the church

888
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: with him on this wild egotistical narcissist, the living witness

889
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: doctor and blah blah blah blah blah, and it became

890
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: more and more exclusive, more and more and crazy until

891
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: he was like, I'm actually the prophet.

892
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 5: And then then they were like you must go, and

893
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 5: then he just died by himself.

894
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 6: Right now, he started to believe that he was like Israel,

895
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 6: he started to believe that he was like one of

896
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 6: the two prophets in Revelations. Yeah, I don't know.

897
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, he started believing he was in the Bible as

898
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 4: like one of the characters and.

899
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 5: Stuff, as one of the characters again.

900
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, like one of the two witnesses mentioned. And I

901
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 4: thinks the other.

902
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 6: Workers were like, what about us.

903
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, it's always so impressive when

904
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: cult leaders and religion starters get kicked out of the

905
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 2: thing that they started. It's like, you do have to

906
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: be sort of at another level of it.

907
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: But he was.

908
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 5: He was brilliant.

909
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: I mean we're now in twenty twenty three still dealing

910
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 1: with him.

911
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 5: So, you know, as far as cult leaders go, Joseph

912
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 5: Smith too genius, you know.

913
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 6: And I would say the current abuse crisis has brought

914
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 6: the church, the actual real church history to the forefront.

915
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 6: Also as well as this book being published last year,

916
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 6: Like we've actually seen two by twos talking about this

917
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 6: book and recommending it. To people.

918
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 4: Oh, which is really which is really crazy because this

919
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 4: has actually happened before. Someone wrote a book called The

920
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 4: Secret Sect back in I want to see the eighties

921
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 4: or something.

922
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 5: I remember the Secret Sect.

923
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I remember when that scandal kind of hit

924
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 4: my own community and the workers went around having special

925
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 4: special meetings like, hey, don't read this book. I know

926
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 4: multiple families that burned copies of the Secrets.

927
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,879
Speaker 6: They were buying extra copies and burning them.

928
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I've never read it. It's impossible to find

929
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: a copy of it.

930
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,919
Speaker 6: Yeah, we were. We were able to get a hold

931
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 6: of a copy and read it. And it's fine.

932
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 4: It's not as exciting as everybody thinks.

933
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 5: This new yeah, but as much.

934
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 6: This sounds so much better.

935
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it just seems like we know this already.

936
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: But like the most powerful tool that we have is

937
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 2: information and communication and the yes, the most effective way

938
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: to oppress people and to control people is to keep

939
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 2: them from talking to each other. So what an amazing

940
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 2: thing that people are talking to each other now and

941
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: learning about this and not being alone in their experiences

942
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: that they've had that are so fucking heartbreaking.

943
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting to see where that

944
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 6: goes because I feel like there is a potential for

945
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 6: different factions to break off, almost like there are a

946
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 6: lot of people like, we want to be honest and

947
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 6: upfront about the church history and the information, and like

948
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 6: we need to be really clear that there is a

949
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 6: crisis of abuse. And then there's people other people who

950
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,479
Speaker 6: are very uncomfortable with all of it and just want

951
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 6: to go back to normal quote unquote, you know. And

952
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 6: of course then there's this massive chasm between regular church

953
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 6: members and the workers and overseers. Like for all of them,

954
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 6: just people we've seen flooding out of the church in

955
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 6: recent months, almost zero of them have been workers. And

956
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 6: the workers, to be fair, are more cut off from

957
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 6: outside information, Like most of them don't have social media.

958
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 6: Most of them completely rely on what their you know,

959
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 6: elder companions or overseers are telling them, like that is

960
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 6: their source of information. So it is harder for them

961
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 6: to be informed.

962
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,479
Speaker 1: And so many of them are it's so difficult to work,

963
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: leave the work. We should give a resource for people

964
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 1: who want to leave the work. A lot of people

965
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: with OCD.

966
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 5: You know, are.

967
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: We read a lot of a lot of stories on

968
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: the site of people who are like I was. I

969
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: was groomed to be in the work from when I

970
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 1: was a kid. Workers would be like, I can tell

971
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: you're a worker, and parents would be like, you know.

972
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 6: So there's a lot of the definition of giving your

973
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 6: best it's doing in the work.

974
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: Yes, and so it's not just people with OCDA. There's

975
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: a lot of very good people who find themselves in

976
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: the work realize it's not what they thought it was,

977
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: but are abused and have no they they didn't get

978
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: any skills, they didn't get an education, they don't have

979
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: a home to go to, they don't have any resources,

980
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: are stuck.

981
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 5: So there's the.

982
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: Cycle that we all just need to be there for

983
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: each other. And there is you know, this group of

984
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: people at the top who are kind of taking advantage

985
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: of a lot of good intentions.

986
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, and there are resource and there is help for

987
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 6: those people who want to leave the ministry and who

988
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 6: want to leave the work. We're not going to name

989
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 6: any group names, but Kyle can give some contact information

990
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 6: for us, and we can absolutely put people in touch

991
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 6: with resources. Whether you're a worker and you need someone

992
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 6: to talk to, or you want to leave, whether you're

993
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 6: a member and you need someone to talk to or

994
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 6: whether you're a survivor of abuse and you need someone

995
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 6: to talk to. There are groups set up now who

996
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 6: are helping with each of these individual things, both in

997
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 6: the US and internationally that we can definitely put people

998
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 6: in contact.

999
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 4: And both ex members and current members are working in

1000
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 4: these different.

1001
00:49:54,520 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: Groups too, so amazing together. So where can people find

1002
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: and you guys and the groups, So we just.

1003
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 4: All we have is Facebook right now, we're called the

1004
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 4: X two by two Support Group e x DASH two

1005
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 4: x two Support Group, and that's the best place to

1006
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 4: find us. You can just find us on Facebook and message.

1007
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: Us and it's and it's not it's not public if

1008
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: you join it, like only the people in the group

1009
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: who can see who's in the right group can see

1010
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: who the group members are, right, and.

1011
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 4: We vet everybody that we let in. We don't just

1012
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 4: let everybody in to come look around. It's we we vet.

1013
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 4: We have ways of checking and seeing if if you're

1014
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 4: a good fit for the group. And but you can

1015
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 4: still talk to us even if you're not. Many people

1016
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 4: have contacted us and said that the group's not for me,

1017
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 4: but you know, can you help me with something else?

1018
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 4: So we do that too.

1019
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 6: So that's awesome.

1020
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 4: So a message, no matter, and then you.

1021
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 6: Set up an email in case people to reach out.

1022
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 4: So we and we also set up a little bit

1023
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 4: of social media, a little more public facing. We're on

1024
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 4: Instagram at X two by two Podcasts e X two

1025
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 4: x two podcast. We don't actually have a podcast yet,

1026
00:50:58,640 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 4: but we think we should have one.

1027
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 6: Good absolute Yeah, we're considering doing like a mini series.

1028
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 4: You can contact on Instagram or X two by two

1029
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 4: Podcasts at gmail dot com. E X two x two

1030
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 4: podcast at gmail dot com.

1031
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for talking to us.

1032
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 6: Thank you for having us. We're huge fans of your podcast,

1033
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 6: so this is real treat for us.

1034
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 2: Okay, that's where we're leaving that. Megan, So do you

1035
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 2: think that this is a few bad apples committing this

1036
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 2: abuse or do you think that this is a systemic problem.

1037
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's not a few bad apples.

1038
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: I think that this is a religion that is based

1039
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: on a lie that grew into a men dominated, absolutely

1040
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: out of control, secret nightmare, and it is completely systemic

1041
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: and until it's changed, almost completely, there's not going to

1042
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: be any answers.

1043
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 5: That's my opinion.

1044
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 6: That's fair.

1045
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 5: That sounds about right.

1046
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the authority placing all of your life's

1047
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: authority and power in the hands of random people traveling

1048
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: into your homes who are supposedly in touch with God. Like,

1049
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 2: it's just a very dangerous.

1050
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 5: It's a recipe for disaster.

1051
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 2: At least when there's one cult leader, like people can

1052
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 2: be like he abused me. Eventually, you know, once it

1053
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: comes out and it's like, oh this guy's bad, let's

1054
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 2: get rid of this guy. But when it's like so

1055
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 2: many people doing it and there's no hierarchy or system

1056
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 2: in place to you know, like stop it.

1057
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: It's like a narcissist dream. So I feel like something

1058
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: that people sometimes wo't understand is that some overseers, and

1059
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: my opinion, don't even believe in God.

1060
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 5: Not that that's important in normal life, but I.

1061
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: Think there's just sociopaths who see the easiest con of

1062
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 1: all time.

1063
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 5: I'm perhaps they're attracted to children.

1064
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 1: What's a way I can just go have as many children,

1065
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: access to as many children as.

1066
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 5: I want here overseers or work both.

1067
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: I mean they're both traveling to I mean, Dean was

1068
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: an overseer who just gave himself a position where he

1069
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: didn't have a companion and could go do whatever he wanted.

1070
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I'm sure there are people who are who

1071
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 2: were just believed in it and whatever, but it's like

1072
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 2: so rife, it's so like prime territory for someone who

1073
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 2: does want to abuse to like enter that position.

1074
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's worth thinking about for people still in like, oh,

1075
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: this is a loophole that some people are jumping through.

1076
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: It's time that these people stop. Yeah, go to jail.

1077
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 5: And leave, you know, we like it's time for healing

1078
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 5: to start.

1079
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: And totally Yeah, this group has a lot of nice

1080
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: qualities about it that we discussed in the first episode.

1081
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 5: And you can't close.

1082
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: Your eyes to reality just because there's some nice parts.

1083
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. But as as we know,

1084
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 2: and as Kyle and Curry discussed, that as a very

1085
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 2: challenging thing to swallow. So I hope that people, yes,

1086
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 2: you know, make use of the support system in the

1087
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: community in that process.

1088
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 5: Sam Sam speaking of community.

1089
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 2: On a completely different note, a.

1090
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: Complete like we're going to a completely different plane of

1091
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: existence right now.

1092
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 5: We're making a jump.

1093
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 2: Yes, we're going back into we have a podcast and

1094
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 2: we're talking about things we have to talk about as

1095
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 2: podcast host mode. We are hosting a screening with American

1096
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,839
Speaker 2: Cinema Tech in Los Angeles on Wednesday, August thirtieth, that's

1097
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Speaker 2: one week from today's release at.

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Speaker 5: The lows Peelis three.

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Speaker 2: It's a screening of the horror movie The Invitation, which

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Speaker 2: is a cult themed horror movie. And as you'll know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a horror filmmaker, so it's more marrying.

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Speaker 5: The world's here.

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Speaker 2: Go get your tickets, come say hi. We're going to

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Speaker 2: introduce the film. We'll be hanging out.

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Speaker 5: Tickets are cheap.

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Speaker 1: I keep trying to tell Lolo we should dress like

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Speaker 1: and she keeps avoiding the questions. So you'll either see

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Speaker 1: us dressed alike or know that we're in a horrible fight.

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Speaker 2: I want to truss alike. I want to dress it,

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Speaker 2: but it's got to be the right outfit. Are we

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Speaker 2: gonna agree on an outfit?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess we're gonna have to go to Melrose

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Speaker 1: Avenue and find the.

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Speaker 2: Right outfit Filthros Avenue. Yes, please come out, please come

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Speaker 2: say hi.

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Speaker 5: This is definitely we will be dressed alike.

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Speaker 2: This is the more fun side of trust me, and

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Speaker 2: we would love to see you.

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Speaker 1: We hope to see you there and We hope to

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Speaker 1: see you again here next week. Indeed, as always, remember

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Speaker 1: to follow your gut, watch out for red flags.

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Speaker 2: And an ever ever trust Me Bye Bye. Trust Me

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Speaker 2: is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

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Speaker 5: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

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Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

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Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

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Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on instatag and Ola Lola on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Abraham

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Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.