WEBVTT - How To Talk About Hard Things 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:31.636 Pushkin hard conversations. I think we talk about them as 0:00:31.676 --> 0:00:35.636 if there's these discreete things. What hard conversations are in 0:00:35.716 --> 0:00:39.596 service of is a relationship and that is ongoing. 0:00:40.516 --> 0:00:43.596 Anna Sale is the creator and host of Death, Sex 0:00:43.636 --> 0:00:47.196 and Money, a show that explores the big questions and 0:00:47.276 --> 0:00:50.556 hard choices that are often left out of polite conversation. 0:00:51.596 --> 0:00:54.796 She believes that sometimes the most powerful thing you can 0:00:54.836 --> 0:00:58.116 say during a tough conversation is nothing at all. 0:00:58.916 --> 0:01:01.516 I think often when people jump in to fill gaps 0:01:01.556 --> 0:01:06.236 in silence, it's to indicate that having an uncomfortable feeling 0:01:06.276 --> 0:01:06.596 is okay. 0:01:06.636 --> 0:01:08.756 And maybe there's this other thing, you know, like, Hugh, 0:01:09.276 --> 0:01:10.236 have you talked with arapist? 0:01:10.396 --> 0:01:12.636 You know, like we want to say something that's going 0:01:12.676 --> 0:01:17.876 to make it feel tolerable, and sometimes big things just 0:01:17.916 --> 0:01:18.916 need a little bit of air. 0:01:24.196 --> 0:01:31.276 On today's show, How to Have Hard Conversations, I'm Maya Schunker, 0:01:31.516 --> 0:01:34.756 a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 0:01:34.796 --> 0:01:37.956 slight change of plans, a show about who we are 0:01:38.156 --> 0:01:49.036 and who we become in the face of a big change. Lately, 0:01:49.316 --> 0:01:52.716 the world has been feeling super heavy, and it's made 0:01:52.716 --> 0:01:55.916 me lose my appetite for hard conversations in my personal 0:01:55.956 --> 0:01:59.876 life about even the small stuff. This worries me because 0:01:59.956 --> 0:02:03.996 hard conversations are essential. They're how we process and work 0:02:04.036 --> 0:02:07.756 through the challenges in our lives. Today's episode is a 0:02:07.836 --> 0:02:11.676 gentle nudge to initiate those conversations that need to be 0:02:11.796 --> 0:02:15.956 had and to bring our empathy, patience, and care to 0:02:15.996 --> 0:02:20.276 these exchanges. Anna Sayle has spent her career leaning into 0:02:20.276 --> 0:02:23.996 difficult topics, both on her podcast and for her book, 0:02:24.196 --> 0:02:28.076 Let's Talk About Hard Things the life changing conversations that 0:02:28.076 --> 0:02:32.236 connect us. In this episode, Anna reflects on what she's learned, 0:02:32.636 --> 0:02:36.276 what's helped, what hasn't, and what she's still figuring out. 0:02:36.996 --> 0:02:40.836 I wonder if you remember a time where you really 0:02:40.836 --> 0:02:44.476 struggled to say something important to someone else, and what 0:02:44.596 --> 0:02:46.236 was it about it that made it so hard. 0:02:46.876 --> 0:02:51.156 I have four sisters, So in any family, as you 0:02:51.156 --> 0:02:53.876 get older, you realize that, like, the different siblings have 0:02:54.036 --> 0:02:57.036 very different experiences in the family depending on how they 0:02:57.116 --> 0:02:59.156 align with parents' expectations. 0:02:59.236 --> 0:03:01.596 Or I'm one of four, so you know, totally get it. 0:03:01.676 --> 0:03:06.596 Yeah, yeah, So I remember different sisters of mine at 0:03:06.596 --> 0:03:09.996 different points in their lives. Teenagers call just would have 0:03:10.036 --> 0:03:13.796 different responses to the way they talked about our parents 0:03:13.956 --> 0:03:16.996 or whether they were felt like they had our parents' approval. 0:03:17.116 --> 0:03:20.916 And I was a middle kid who did well in school, 0:03:21.516 --> 0:03:23.916 and when I did things that were against the rules, 0:03:23.916 --> 0:03:27.116 I never got caught. So like I just like slid through, 0:03:27.756 --> 0:03:30.196 you know, I just like knew how to bob and 0:03:30.236 --> 0:03:33.436 weave and didn't really have trouble with my parents and 0:03:33.676 --> 0:03:36.956 other sisters of mine, like they had different responses to 0:03:36.996 --> 0:03:39.676 confrontation and had different relationships with our parents. And so 0:03:40.116 --> 0:03:43.476 I can remember those early conversations about, you know, try 0:03:43.516 --> 0:03:47.156 and understand when something was upsetting them, and then also 0:03:47.196 --> 0:03:53.716 having that parallel conversation or like desire to be protective 0:03:53.996 --> 0:03:56.916 of how I saw our family and how I saw 0:03:56.996 --> 0:04:01.116 our parents think it was too upsetting to let their 0:04:01.876 --> 0:04:04.436 version of what their experience in our family had been 0:04:04.916 --> 0:04:06.996 for me to sit with the conversation. 0:04:07.236 --> 0:04:10.876 Do you feel like you play a mediator role within 0:04:10.916 --> 0:04:13.036 your own family, which is when you see that there's 0:04:13.716 --> 0:04:17.116 some sort of strife, you try and actually facilitate an 0:04:17.196 --> 0:04:18.316 open dialogue about it. 0:04:20.396 --> 0:04:23.076 Yes, And I think I would have more fully owned 0:04:23.196 --> 0:04:26.396 that earlier in my life, because there's a way that 0:04:26.396 --> 0:04:29.956 that fit with my idea of myself as super relationally 0:04:29.996 --> 0:04:34.356 advanced and skillful. But there's this way that trying to 0:04:34.396 --> 0:04:37.276 be in the middle and moderate and like help people 0:04:37.316 --> 0:04:39.396 hear each other in ways that you think that they're 0:04:39.436 --> 0:04:45.836 missing that that's like a power move that's kind of obnoxious. Like, 0:04:47.036 --> 0:04:50.596 so when you step in to moderate something, you're becoming 0:04:50.636 --> 0:04:53.956 the podcast host and the difficult relational piece in your family, 0:04:53.996 --> 0:04:55.956 and not everybody wants you to play that role. 0:04:56.716 --> 0:05:01.036 Absolutely. I ask this because I am cut from the 0:05:01.076 --> 0:05:03.756 same cloth. I don't know if it's a pathology around 0:05:03.796 --> 0:05:07.316 peace seeking or the fact that my brain kind of 0:05:07.356 --> 0:05:11.476 instinctively says, of course, a conversation would make this better. 0:05:12.196 --> 0:05:16.676 But I feel such an impatience with silence and with 0:05:16.956 --> 0:05:20.996 just pushing stuff under the rug that I feel like 0:05:21.036 --> 0:05:24.996 a desperation in my life to expose everything, even if 0:05:24.996 --> 0:05:27.476 it leads to a sense of calamity in the moment. 0:05:27.636 --> 0:05:30.716 I think I just instinctively believe will be some sort 0:05:30.756 --> 0:05:32.676 of payoff down the line. 0:05:32.796 --> 0:05:34.476 You so you're a disruptor, Yeah. 0:05:34.396 --> 0:05:38.076 Very disruptive, and often it works, but then sometimes it 0:05:38.116 --> 0:05:42.156 makes things worse. And that is really a failure of 0:05:42.196 --> 0:05:46.636 mine to empathize with a person who would prefer to 0:05:46.676 --> 0:05:48.876 not talk about the thing I'm placing kind of a 0:05:49.316 --> 0:05:52.316 norm on the other person, or I'm assuming they carry 0:05:52.356 --> 0:05:53.236 my psychology. 0:05:54.036 --> 0:05:58.756 Yeah, and I totally get that impulse, especially when it's 0:05:58.796 --> 0:06:01.356 like among people you really love and you want you 0:06:01.396 --> 0:06:03.396 want it to get on with it. Let's just like 0:06:03.596 --> 0:06:07.596 get on with it and move to a new way 0:06:07.596 --> 0:06:10.196 of understanding each other. I mean, I wrote a book. 0:06:10.196 --> 0:06:12.196 I wrote a benmore. I had a whole chapter about family. 0:06:12.236 --> 0:06:15.676 I was like sharing drafts with all my family members. 0:06:15.756 --> 0:06:17.396 How's this read to you? How's this read to you? 0:06:17.916 --> 0:06:17.996 So? 0:06:18.036 --> 0:06:20.236 I think I was definitely playing that role when I 0:06:20.276 --> 0:06:24.396 was doing that, and then it was kind of like, Okay, 0:06:24.396 --> 0:06:25.036 I've done that. 0:06:25.356 --> 0:06:26.556 We're just going to like step. 0:06:26.316 --> 0:06:28.396 Back and let everybody have their own experience in the 0:06:28.436 --> 0:06:30.316 family and sort of be a member of it and 0:06:30.396 --> 0:06:35.156 observe and realize that this is an organism that has 0:06:35.236 --> 0:06:37.436 a lot of different stuff going on. 0:06:37.956 --> 0:06:40.756 Yeah, so zooming out a little bit. I mean, you've 0:06:40.756 --> 0:06:45.956 obviously made a career around having difficult conversations with people. 0:06:46.396 --> 0:06:51.556 How do you prepare for a hard conversation with someone 0:06:51.676 --> 0:06:54.436 with your family, with your husband, with friends. Yeah. 0:06:54.916 --> 0:06:58.236 When I think of hard conversations now. They don't happen 0:06:58.516 --> 0:07:01.436 during podcast recordings. They happen with my husband, they happen 0:07:01.556 --> 0:07:05.156 with my closest friends, because those are the ones where 0:07:05.196 --> 0:07:09.836 there's stakes and where it hurts if you feel like 0:07:10.076 --> 0:07:14.876 your intentions are not sort of seen clearly, or that 0:07:14.956 --> 0:07:18.196 I'm missing something that's that I'm doing, that's really hurtful. 0:07:18.716 --> 0:07:21.796 So I think that the way that I try to 0:07:21.836 --> 0:07:26.156 prepare is I can feel it in my body when 0:07:26.156 --> 0:07:28.876 I get seized up with sort of like I get 0:07:28.916 --> 0:07:31.636 something to got to bring up, you know, I'm feeling wronged, 0:07:31.876 --> 0:07:36.036 you know, And often it's something around feeling overwhelmed or 0:07:36.156 --> 0:07:39.916 like some way that I've tried really hard hasn't been 0:07:40.076 --> 0:07:45.516 sufficiently acknowledged and I'm worn out, and it's really hard 0:07:45.596 --> 0:07:48.636 not to just start the conversation right in that, you know, 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:51.276 like pissed off way, Yeah. 0:07:51.076 --> 0:07:53.436 Like you don't appreciate that I'm doing the dishes every night. 0:07:53.596 --> 0:07:57.676 Yeah, And that doesn't always go well. It's like how 0:07:57.716 --> 0:08:04.236 do I slow down and take a breath, And then 0:08:05.316 --> 0:08:08.796 after I sort of can breathe a minute, I have 0:08:08.996 --> 0:08:13.676 just a little bit more space around the emotion of 0:08:13.716 --> 0:08:16.436 it that I can like be a little bit more 0:08:17.316 --> 0:08:21.036 in control of how I respond, because when I don't 0:08:21.076 --> 0:08:24.476 take that minute, it's just if you're pissed, you've got 0:08:24.476 --> 0:08:28.076 something to say, it doesn't land well, and then you're 0:08:28.076 --> 0:08:30.636 feeling like you're having to defend yourself. Then it's just 0:08:30.676 --> 0:08:36.756 like tight self protection defensive Anna, She's just going to 0:08:36.796 --> 0:08:39.996 be present in protecting herself until she gets tired. 0:08:40.756 --> 0:08:42.156 Then you can finally resolve. 0:08:42.956 --> 0:08:45.836 And I'm assuming you lack receptivity to what other person's saying, 0:08:45.876 --> 0:08:50.476 so nothing other than Anna, you are totally right. 0:08:50.476 --> 0:08:53.516 Oh my god, And how could I not have seen? 0:08:53.756 --> 0:08:55.796 And I think to myself every day how lucky I 0:08:55.836 --> 0:08:57.756 am that you were willing to marry me and that 0:08:57.836 --> 0:08:58.836 you do do the dishes. 0:08:58.916 --> 0:09:00.756 My god, Maya, maybe we should get married. 0:09:01.996 --> 0:09:05.316 I know, I think so. So I think we can 0:09:05.356 --> 0:09:08.076 all imagine pretty clearly what the pissed off version looks like, 0:09:08.516 --> 0:09:11.516 Oh my god, you never appreciate me. What is the 0:09:11.556 --> 0:09:16.276 more like, take a deep breath, slightly more reflective version 0:09:16.316 --> 0:09:17.516 of that conversation? Look like? 0:09:17.916 --> 0:09:20.476 What I try to do is just starting that conversation 0:09:20.556 --> 0:09:23.836 with like, Okay, can we back up and talk about 0:09:23.836 --> 0:09:25.636 how we hope this thing goes? 0:09:25.836 --> 0:09:27.236 What do you hope for it? What do I hope 0:09:27.276 --> 0:09:27.796 for it? 0:09:27.796 --> 0:09:30.996 It's trying to get to that place where you have 0:09:31.276 --> 0:09:33.876 the spirit of Okay, I am doing the best I can, 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:37.236 and this person I have conflict with right now is 0:09:37.236 --> 0:09:41.556 doing the best he can? And how do I not lash? 0:09:41.676 --> 0:09:43.396 And like lash out is a good word, because like, 0:09:43.476 --> 0:09:45.956 my kids are elementary school age, and I can see 0:09:46.316 --> 0:09:48.956 when I lose my patience and I get a little 0:09:49.036 --> 0:09:52.196 like snippy, it almost goes down like a little ladder. 0:09:52.436 --> 0:09:54.916 I get snippy about something, getting get your shoes on, 0:09:54.956 --> 0:09:56.596 get in the car, And then I can watch my 0:09:56.676 --> 0:09:58.476 nine year old get snippy with my six year old, 0:09:58.876 --> 0:10:01.916 and it's just like, oh, this isn't about some like 0:10:01.996 --> 0:10:05.916 fundamental you know, misalignment and chores in this house. This 0:10:05.996 --> 0:10:09.836 is like I felt bad, I madebody else feel bad. 0:10:09.836 --> 0:10:11.036 They made somebody else feel bad. 0:10:11.756 --> 0:10:15.316 What about the conversations where you have no idea where 0:10:15.356 --> 0:10:17.236 it's going to go. You don't know if they're even 0:10:17.236 --> 0:10:19.996 willing to talk about it. How do you prepare for 0:10:20.076 --> 0:10:20.836 something like that? 0:10:21.716 --> 0:10:22.516 I think. 0:10:24.796 --> 0:10:27.916 I have a friend who lost her dad. It's been 0:10:28.116 --> 0:10:35.436 a few months, and every interaction that I have, I'm aware, Oh, 0:10:35.476 --> 0:10:37.076 we're catching up and I want to know how she's 0:10:37.116 --> 0:10:38.556 doing with grief. 0:10:39.116 --> 0:10:39.276 HM. 0:10:40.556 --> 0:10:42.196 But I don't want to be that friend who like, 0:10:42.436 --> 0:10:43.756 every time we call, I'm like. 0:10:43.956 --> 0:10:46.196 How are you? 0:10:46.196 --> 0:10:49.076 You know, I've been close to enough people in grief 0:10:49.076 --> 0:10:53.036 who know like, oh God, there's this weird currency to 0:10:53.476 --> 0:10:57.076 getting updates on how I'm doing that people want in on, 0:10:57.476 --> 0:10:59.036 And I don't want to be that friend. 0:10:59.116 --> 0:11:00.436 I want to be the friend who. 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:04.236 Just like swims up to him and is like, what's 0:11:04.276 --> 0:11:06.956 going on today? We can talk about the weather, we 0:11:06.956 --> 0:11:09.236 can talk about whatever. We can talk about a menu. 0:11:09.636 --> 0:11:11.356 Or we can talk about your dad, or we talk 0:11:11.396 --> 0:11:12.436 about how much nis him? 0:11:12.516 --> 0:11:15.436 Yeah, you know, So that's kind of that's like a 0:11:15.476 --> 0:11:17.836 micro version of like how's this going to go? It's 0:11:17.916 --> 0:11:20.596 kind of like when you know somebody's going through something. 0:11:21.596 --> 0:11:23.236 But I don't want to be that friend who's like, 0:11:24.276 --> 0:11:25.636 you know, how's it going? 0:11:25.676 --> 0:11:27.716 What are you dad? How's your heartbreak today? 0:11:27.916 --> 0:11:32.316 You know, there's other things where say there's like a 0:11:32.356 --> 0:11:35.996 revelation where somebody is revealing something that's going to fundamentally 0:11:36.116 --> 0:11:40.796 change the way the person you're telling understands the world 0:11:41.236 --> 0:11:43.436 and their place in it. And I think with those 0:11:43.476 --> 0:11:47.516 conversations if you can control the circumstances. It's to like 0:11:48.116 --> 0:11:51.196 prepare yourself, prepare the person that there's going to be 0:11:51.236 --> 0:11:53.676 sort of a different kind of can I talk to 0:11:53.716 --> 0:11:57.116 you about something important? You know, you create a little 0:11:57.116 --> 0:12:01.596 cocoon somehow for a different kind of conversation. I think 0:12:01.596 --> 0:12:03.636 the best kind of planning for a hard conversation is, 0:12:03.636 --> 0:12:05.236 like you plan for what you're going to say to 0:12:05.276 --> 0:12:07.876 the person who's going to find out the thing, and 0:12:07.916 --> 0:12:10.636 then you have consent circles outside of that of the 0:12:10.676 --> 0:12:13.196 other people who know you're having the conversation, so you 0:12:13.276 --> 0:12:16.236 can like debrief and get support from them so that 0:12:16.276 --> 0:12:20.676 the initial reaction of the person isn't something that you 0:12:20.796 --> 0:12:23.596 need to go a certain way because you just can't 0:12:23.636 --> 0:12:24.196 control that. 0:12:24.396 --> 0:12:26.076 If somebody's finding out something. 0:12:26.276 --> 0:12:31.236 Fundamental about your relationship or something that hasn't been honest, 0:12:31.436 --> 0:12:33.996 or if you're a manager who has to lay somebody off, 0:12:35.036 --> 0:12:37.636 you can't go into that conversation expecting that they're going 0:12:37.716 --> 0:12:39.796 to like appreciate hearing that information from you. 0:12:40.316 --> 0:12:43.436 Yeah, what about when when you're preparing for a conversation 0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:46.436 where you might be on the receiving end of the revelation, 0:12:46.716 --> 0:12:50.516 so you can tell someone's carrying something really heavy, and 0:12:50.556 --> 0:12:54.396 your goal and the conversation is to create a space 0:12:54.436 --> 0:12:56.516 where they could maybe feel comfortable opening up to you 0:12:56.556 --> 0:12:56.956 about it. 0:12:57.756 --> 0:13:00.196 I think that the thing that I have learned from 0:13:00.316 --> 0:13:03.316 talking to both people I love and I'm close to 0:13:03.436 --> 0:13:05.996 in real life and people who are strangers as a 0:13:06.076 --> 0:13:10.516 journalist about being that person that that someone is like 0:13:10.596 --> 0:13:17.156 sharing something that they haven't shared before, is is it's 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:22.756 a huge compliment, but more like it is an immense responsibility, 0:13:24.156 --> 0:13:28.276 because there's like, what is your first reaction? Are you 0:13:28.316 --> 0:13:30.556 trying to lighten the mood and you laugh and it 0:13:30.596 --> 0:13:32.476 could be construed as you laughing at them? 0:13:33.476 --> 0:13:34.356 Is it like. 0:13:36.116 --> 0:13:37.916 You don't know what to do with the information and 0:13:37.956 --> 0:13:42.196 you feel like you want to offer some immediate, prescriptive 0:13:42.276 --> 0:13:44.636 advice that's going to help make it feel less heavy, 0:13:44.756 --> 0:13:48.316 And then that feels really pat and like you didn't 0:13:48.356 --> 0:13:50.996 hear them. I've done all these things. By the way, 0:13:51.436 --> 0:13:56.236 just be clear to all of these stings. You have 0:13:56.276 --> 0:14:00.276 a responsibility to clarify with this person what the expectation 0:14:00.396 --> 0:14:02.636 is about what you are going to do with this information, 0:14:03.116 --> 0:14:06.516 how much it's kept confidential, who you might share it with, 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:09.596 and why, what you might do to help them, support them, 0:14:09.676 --> 0:14:12.956 or advocate for them. You need their permission to do that. 0:14:13.516 --> 0:14:16.916 I liked fashioning myself somebody who people would confide in. 0:14:17.116 --> 0:14:21.916 That has long been part of my identity, And now 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:26.836 I almost feel rather than like going immediately into leaning in, 0:14:27.036 --> 0:14:29.036 I keep the middle distance a little bit to make 0:14:29.036 --> 0:14:32.436 sure I'm the right person, like recognizing your ability to 0:14:32.876 --> 0:14:36.556 empathize and the limits of your ability to empathize. It's like, 0:14:36.636 --> 0:14:38.756 am I the right person? And maybe I am the 0:14:38.836 --> 0:14:40.716 right person, but I'm not the right person right now. 0:14:41.436 --> 0:14:44.836 Like other mistakes I've made is not be clear about 0:14:44.876 --> 0:14:50.156 my ability to show up. You know something about raising 0:14:50.196 --> 0:14:53.236 young kids. As I've disappointed a lot of people and 0:14:53.636 --> 0:14:57.196 let some friendships that were very like core to me. 0:14:57.916 --> 0:15:01.076 They're a little bit dried up and need need watering 0:15:01.276 --> 0:15:03.916 when I get more capacity. So I think that's the 0:15:03.996 --> 0:15:09.396 other thing is making sure you're checking in and as 0:15:09.436 --> 0:15:12.796 you can, and when you can't check in, figure out 0:15:12.796 --> 0:15:15.956 how to like acknowledge that so that they don't feel abandoned. 0:15:16.676 --> 0:15:19.556 I'm so curious to know how having kids has shaped 0:15:19.596 --> 0:15:23.316 how you think about difficult conversations. You're a mom to 0:15:23.396 --> 0:15:26.676 two young children, and I imagine you don't engage with 0:15:26.676 --> 0:15:29.916 them as you do with adults. So how have you 0:15:30.036 --> 0:15:31.356 been navigating that space? 0:15:32.516 --> 0:15:34.156 It is profound. 0:15:35.156 --> 0:15:44.036 Something I think about a lot is restraint. I have daughters, 0:15:44.116 --> 0:15:46.276 so there's like a mother daughter just like picture a 0:15:46.316 --> 0:15:51.556 mother daughter trope. And in my version there's like the 0:15:51.556 --> 0:15:56.516 way it expresses itself is I'm both the person that 0:15:56.516 --> 0:15:58.996 they feel the most comfortable sort of falling apart with 0:15:59.196 --> 0:16:01.836 after a long day of school. So they're the most 0:16:02.156 --> 0:16:04.916 like Braddy to me of anybody in their lives. 0:16:05.636 --> 0:16:08.356 You're their safe space. Anna, That's what I always hear. 0:16:08.596 --> 0:16:10.836 I had a friend and tell me recently, I don't 0:16:10.876 --> 0:16:13.516 want to be my child's safe space anymore. 0:16:14.636 --> 0:16:16.316 Man, it's trying. 0:16:17.156 --> 0:16:20.596 So there's that, and then there's also when I really 0:16:20.596 --> 0:16:22.796 want them to get something, and if I've had to 0:16:22.836 --> 0:16:26.036 repeat it or if it's if it's something, the way 0:16:26.036 --> 0:16:28.316 it shows up a lot is like if there's something 0:16:28.356 --> 0:16:32.876 about interacting socially that feels very core to our values 0:16:32.916 --> 0:16:36.996 as a family, whether it's how we talk to people 0:16:36.996 --> 0:16:41.756 who're just meeting and manners, or how we just deal 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:45.076 with people who are different from us, Like your responsibility 0:16:45.076 --> 0:16:46.876 as a parent is to teach this child how to 0:16:46.916 --> 0:16:50.956 live in civilization. Right, the stakes are high, but kids 0:16:50.996 --> 0:16:56.996 can only take in so much high minded instruction, so 0:16:57.196 --> 0:16:59.676 like there's a certain point where you just get totally 0:16:59.996 --> 0:17:03.756 tuned out. I think this is the same for whether 0:17:03.796 --> 0:17:05.636 you're talking to a child or are grown up. We 0:17:05.796 --> 0:17:09.356 all have our openings where we can hear, and we 0:17:09.396 --> 0:17:12.076 have our times when we just like we're like, whatever, 0:17:12.436 --> 0:17:14.116 what do I need to say to get this lady 0:17:14.116 --> 0:17:16.196 to stop talking to me and move to my next thing? 0:17:16.996 --> 0:17:19.636 And so I'm just I think being a parent has 0:17:19.636 --> 0:17:22.636 made me much more aware about watching for your spots 0:17:23.076 --> 0:17:25.476 and making sure you don't fill the space so that 0:17:25.876 --> 0:17:28.596 them reflecting on something from the backseat of the car 0:17:28.676 --> 0:17:30.916 when you're driving, you just like, don't talk over that 0:17:30.956 --> 0:17:34.756 because you've got some lesson to impart. I love that kids' 0:17:34.796 --> 0:17:38.636 timelines are different than grown ups. I mean, just imagine, 0:17:38.676 --> 0:17:41.556 I'm like somebody who might I've built my professional life 0:17:41.756 --> 0:17:45.516 around getting in there with people, and I'm gonna do 0:17:45.596 --> 0:17:49.156 it with my kids. And like, you know what, Dinna, 0:17:49.276 --> 0:17:52.196 you just got you gotta pace yourself. 0:17:56.276 --> 0:17:58.356 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:17:58.356 --> 0:18:24.516 of plans. What's your advice when you feel like a 0:18:24.516 --> 0:18:27.556 difficult conversation needs to happen, but the other person does 0:18:27.596 --> 0:18:30.796 not want to engage. So let's say there's a conflic 0:18:30.876 --> 0:18:34.036 at work or with your partner and they're just not 0:18:34.116 --> 0:18:36.156 having it. What do you do in a situation like that? 0:18:37.436 --> 0:18:40.676 You can't force somebody to engage in a way that 0:18:40.716 --> 0:18:45.356 you want them to engage, And so then it's the 0:18:45.436 --> 0:18:49.556 questions are if this person can't be with me in 0:18:49.596 --> 0:18:52.436 this way that I want them to be and expect 0:18:52.436 --> 0:18:55.276 them to be, and they're letting me down, can I 0:18:55.276 --> 0:18:59.036 still have a relationship with them? Or do I want 0:18:59.076 --> 0:19:02.756 to be around them? You know, and certainly an employer 0:19:02.876 --> 0:19:06.636 employee relationship is lower stakes to move on from than 0:19:07.556 --> 0:19:10.196 somebody in your family of origin, Like can you figure 0:19:10.196 --> 0:19:12.676 out another way to be in relationship with them but 0:19:12.796 --> 0:19:16.356 have things that you can't expect from each other? 0:19:16.516 --> 0:19:16.756 You know? 0:19:17.636 --> 0:19:20.476 If I feel like I need something from someone and 0:19:20.516 --> 0:19:23.276 they are not giving it to me, what do I do? 0:19:24.316 --> 0:19:27.516 That's a question about who you are, and you have 0:19:27.556 --> 0:19:30.516 to sit with all those different possibilities that that could raise. 0:19:32.076 --> 0:19:35.396 You know, I was married before, and in my first marriage, 0:19:35.996 --> 0:19:40.156 any relationship has conflicts right and your earlier is like 0:19:40.196 --> 0:19:43.316 part of getting to know each other. You discover the 0:19:43.316 --> 0:19:45.596 ways that you're different, You discover the places where we 0:19:45.756 --> 0:19:46.916 kind of misalign and have. 0:19:46.836 --> 0:19:47.476 To work at it. 0:19:48.356 --> 0:19:52.396 And then when a relationship you know that balance of 0:19:52.436 --> 0:19:56.996 like we've lost so much of the connective tissue that 0:19:57.036 --> 0:20:00.716 holds this together and I'm not giving you what you 0:20:00.796 --> 0:20:02.556 need and You're not giving me what I need because 0:20:02.596 --> 0:20:05.836 we want different things. You sort of knowed it. You 0:20:05.876 --> 0:20:09.076 feel it's heaviness. You think about can I carry this around? 0:20:09.436 --> 0:20:12.116 Is this going to change? Is this temporary or is 0:20:12.156 --> 0:20:16.236 this forever? What does it mean about me that I 0:20:16.276 --> 0:20:19.596 don't know how to have this relationship continue? If we 0:20:19.636 --> 0:20:23.276 can't figure out this core hard conversation, Who am I? 0:20:23.276 --> 0:20:25.996 If I'm somebody who doesn't want to stay in a marriage. 0:20:26.876 --> 0:20:30.516 It's just like this kind of swamp you have to 0:20:30.596 --> 0:20:34.156 trudge through to think, like what of this can I 0:20:34.316 --> 0:20:38.476 tolerate and figure out how to live with? And how 0:20:38.556 --> 0:20:40.876 much of this is so heavy and boggy that like, 0:20:40.876 --> 0:20:42.876 I'm getting stuck in this mud. 0:20:43.436 --> 0:20:45.796 If the person is willing to engage, but you feel 0:20:45.796 --> 0:20:47.956 like there's a moment in the conversation where they're starting 0:20:47.956 --> 0:20:50.796 to close off. Do you have any advice for how 0:20:50.836 --> 0:20:54.196 to help the walls go back down? Or do you 0:20:54.316 --> 0:20:56.956 just kind of pivot? Do you take a break? 0:20:57.516 --> 0:21:00.356 I would try saying like, I noticed that you seems 0:21:00.396 --> 0:21:02.516 like you're getting tired of this conversation. I notice that 0:21:02.516 --> 0:21:04.636 you're sort of losing energy here. Do you want to 0:21:04.676 --> 0:21:07.836 talk about this in another time? You know? Are you frustrated? 0:21:08.116 --> 0:21:11.196 Are you angry? Like just kind of doing that thing 0:21:11.196 --> 0:21:15.436 where you notice you make something that's unspoken or maybe 0:21:15.556 --> 0:21:18.916 meta about the interaction and you make it explicit and 0:21:18.956 --> 0:21:20.916 then see if it opens up and they might tell you, like, 0:21:21.996 --> 0:21:24.876 you know, when you said that one word four sentences ago, 0:21:24.996 --> 0:21:27.276 it really pissed me off, you know, and. 0:21:27.516 --> 0:21:28.916 You might not have been aware of it. 0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:33.116 Or it might be that you've talked for fifty minutes 0:21:33.156 --> 0:21:35.836 and it's you know, eleven forty five pm, and it's 0:21:35.836 --> 0:21:39.156 not the time to like come to a resolution. To 0:21:39.236 --> 0:21:43.036 be continued can be okay, It can be really scary 0:21:43.076 --> 0:21:47.156 for people who think of themselves as like I resolve 0:21:47.236 --> 0:21:50.556 conflict to like sit with something that's unresolved. 0:21:50.716 --> 0:21:54.636 My worst night, Marianna, I can't even sleep well. 0:21:54.676 --> 0:21:56.756 I think that that's so interesting because I feel that 0:21:56.796 --> 0:22:00.396 way too. And it's like something that my husband sometimes 0:22:00.396 --> 0:22:02.196 says when we're like in the middle of some kind 0:22:02.236 --> 0:22:05.276 of hard discussion. He'll be like, we're going to be okay, 0:22:06.396 --> 0:22:08.116 but this really pisses me off when you do this. 0:22:08.356 --> 0:22:10.916 It's just like so little, but just like it just says, 0:22:11.076 --> 0:22:14.476 I'm not rejecting the whole idea of you as a 0:22:14.516 --> 0:22:15.196 human person. 0:22:15.236 --> 0:22:16.676 Anna, you are not bad. 0:22:16.956 --> 0:22:19.436 Right now, and this relationship is not over. 0:22:19.716 --> 0:22:22.716 Yeah, because it gets to like our own feelings of 0:22:22.756 --> 0:22:25.996 where we feel insecure and worthy, et cetera. So I 0:22:26.036 --> 0:22:30.316 don't know, I think practicing sitting with unresolved conversations is 0:22:30.476 --> 0:22:31.676 really powerful. 0:22:32.436 --> 0:22:36.436 I just felt that in my soul father way, and 0:22:36.476 --> 0:22:37.956 I'm sorry to interrupt. I felt you were going to 0:22:37.996 --> 0:22:40.076 say something else. I think that's so small it We'll 0:22:40.116 --> 0:22:41.756 let it resonate in your soul a little bit. 0:22:41.876 --> 0:22:42.276 Ding. 0:22:43.516 --> 0:22:47.876 Yeah, that is what I personally need to practice. You 0:22:47.956 --> 0:22:52.516 need to practice sitting in the discomfort of an unresolved conversation. 0:22:53.676 --> 0:22:56.876