Speaker 1: Pushkin hard conversations. I think we talk about them as
Speaker 1: if there's these discreete things. What hard conversations are in
Speaker 1: service of is a relationship and that is ongoing.
Speaker 2: Anna Sale is the creator and host of Death, Sex
Speaker 2: and Money, a show that explores the big questions and
Speaker 2: hard choices that are often left out of polite conversation.
Speaker 2: She believes that sometimes the most powerful thing you can
Speaker 2: say during a tough conversation is nothing at all.
Speaker 1: I think often when people jump in to fill gaps
Speaker 1: in silence, it's to indicate that having an uncomfortable feeling
Speaker 1: is okay.
Speaker 3: And maybe there's this other thing, you know, like, Hugh,
Speaker 3: have you talked with arapist?
Speaker 1: You know, like we want to say something that's going
Speaker 1: to make it feel tolerable, and sometimes big things just
Speaker 1: need a little bit of air.
Speaker 2: On today's show, How to Have Hard Conversations, I'm Maya Schunker,
Speaker 2: a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a
Speaker 2: slight change of plans, a show about who we are
Speaker 2: and who we become in the face of a big change. Lately,
Speaker 2: the world has been feeling super heavy, and it's made
Speaker 2: me lose my appetite for hard conversations in my personal
Speaker 2: life about even the small stuff. This worries me because
Speaker 2: hard conversations are essential. They're how we process and work
Speaker 2: through the challenges in our lives. Today's episode is a
Speaker 2: gentle nudge to initiate those conversations that need to be
Speaker 2: had and to bring our empathy, patience, and care to
Speaker 2: these exchanges. Anna Sayle has spent her career leaning into
Speaker 2: difficult topics, both on her podcast and for her book,
Speaker 2: Let's Talk About Hard Things the life changing conversations that
Speaker 2: connect us. In this episode, Anna reflects on what she's learned,
Speaker 2: what's helped, what hasn't, and what she's still figuring out.
Speaker 2: I wonder if you remember a time where you really
Speaker 2: struggled to say something important to someone else, and what
Speaker 2: was it about it that made it so hard.
Speaker 1: I have four sisters, So in any family, as you
Speaker 1: get older, you realize that, like, the different siblings have
Speaker 1: very different experiences in the family depending on how they
Speaker 1: align with parents' expectations.
Speaker 2: Or I'm one of four, so you know, totally get it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I remember different sisters of mine at
Speaker 1: different points in their lives. Teenagers call just would have
Speaker 1: different responses to the way they talked about our parents
Speaker 1: or whether they were felt like they had our parents' approval.
Speaker 1: And I was a middle kid who did well in school,
Speaker 1: and when I did things that were against the rules,
Speaker 1: I never got caught. So like I just like slid through,
Speaker 1: you know, I just like knew how to bob and
Speaker 1: weave and didn't really have trouble with my parents and
Speaker 1: other sisters of mine, like they had different responses to
Speaker 1: confrontation and had different relationships with our parents. And so
Speaker 1: I can remember those early conversations about, you know, try
Speaker 1: and understand when something was upsetting them, and then also
Speaker 1: having that parallel conversation or like desire to be protective
Speaker 1: of how I saw our family and how I saw
Speaker 1: our parents think it was too upsetting to let their
Speaker 1: version of what their experience in our family had been
Speaker 1: for me to sit with the conversation.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like you play a mediator role within
Speaker 2: your own family, which is when you see that there's
Speaker 2: some sort of strife, you try and actually facilitate an
Speaker 2: open dialogue about it.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I think I would have more fully owned
Speaker 1: that earlier in my life, because there's a way that
Speaker 1: that fit with my idea of myself as super relationally
Speaker 1: advanced and skillful. But there's this way that trying to
Speaker 1: be in the middle and moderate and like help people
Speaker 1: hear each other in ways that you think that they're
Speaker 1: missing that that's like a power move that's kind of obnoxious. Like,
Speaker 1: so when you step in to moderate something, you're becoming
Speaker 1: the podcast host and the difficult relational piece in your family,
Speaker 1: and not everybody wants you to play that role.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I ask this because I am cut from the
Speaker 2: same cloth. I don't know if it's a pathology around
Speaker 2: peace seeking or the fact that my brain kind of
Speaker 2: instinctively says, of course, a conversation would make this better.
Speaker 2: But I feel such an impatience with silence and with
Speaker 2: just pushing stuff under the rug that I feel like
Speaker 2: a desperation in my life to expose everything, even if
Speaker 2: it leads to a sense of calamity in the moment.
Speaker 2: I think I just instinctively believe will be some sort
Speaker 2: of payoff down the line.
Speaker 3: You so you're a disruptor, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Very disruptive, and often it works, but then sometimes it
Speaker 2: makes things worse. And that is really a failure of
Speaker 2: mine to empathize with a person who would prefer to
Speaker 2: not talk about the thing I'm placing kind of a
Speaker 2: norm on the other person, or I'm assuming they carry
Speaker 2: my psychology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I totally get that impulse, especially when it's
Speaker 1: like among people you really love and you want you
Speaker 1: want it to get on with it. Let's just like
Speaker 1: get on with it and move to a new way
Speaker 1: of understanding each other. I mean, I wrote a book.
Speaker 1: I wrote a benmore. I had a whole chapter about family.
Speaker 1: I was like sharing drafts with all my family members.
Speaker 3: How's this read to you? How's this read to you?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 1: I think I was definitely playing that role when I
Speaker 1: was doing that, and then it was kind of like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I've done that.
Speaker 3: We're just going to like step.
Speaker 1: Back and let everybody have their own experience in the
Speaker 1: family and sort of be a member of it and
Speaker 1: observe and realize that this is an organism that has
Speaker 1: a lot of different stuff going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so zooming out a little bit. I mean, you've
Speaker 2: obviously made a career around having difficult conversations with people.
Speaker 2: How do you prepare for a hard conversation with someone
Speaker 2: with your family, with your husband, with friends. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When I think of hard conversations now. They don't happen
Speaker 1: during podcast recordings. They happen with my husband, they happen
Speaker 1: with my closest friends, because those are the ones where
Speaker 1: there's stakes and where it hurts if you feel like
Speaker 1: your intentions are not sort of seen clearly, or that
Speaker 1: I'm missing something that's that I'm doing, that's really hurtful.
Speaker 1: So I think that the way that I try to
Speaker 1: prepare is I can feel it in my body when
Speaker 1: I get seized up with sort of like I get
Speaker 1: something to got to bring up, you know, I'm feeling wronged,
Speaker 1: you know, And often it's something around feeling overwhelmed or
Speaker 1: like some way that I've tried really hard hasn't been
Speaker 1: sufficiently acknowledged and I'm worn out, and it's really hard
Speaker 1: not to just start the conversation right in that, you know,
Speaker 1: like pissed off way, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like you don't appreciate that I'm doing the dishes every night.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that doesn't always go well. It's like how
Speaker 1: do I slow down and take a breath, And then
Speaker 1: after I sort of can breathe a minute, I have
Speaker 1: just a little bit more space around the emotion of
Speaker 1: it that I can like be a little bit more
Speaker 1: in control of how I respond, because when I don't
Speaker 1: take that minute, it's just if you're pissed, you've got
Speaker 1: something to say, it doesn't land well, and then you're
Speaker 1: feeling like you're having to defend yourself. Then it's just
Speaker 1: like tight self protection defensive Anna, She's just going to
Speaker 1: be present in protecting herself until she gets tired.
Speaker 3: Then you can finally resolve.
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming you lack receptivity to what other person's saying,
Speaker 2: so nothing other than Anna, you are totally right.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, And how could I not have seen?
Speaker 2: And I think to myself every day how lucky I
Speaker 2: am that you were willing to marry me and that
Speaker 2: you do do the dishes.
Speaker 3: My god, Maya, maybe we should get married.
Speaker 2: I know, I think so. So I think we can
Speaker 2: all imagine pretty clearly what the pissed off version looks like,
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you never appreciate me. What is the
Speaker 2: more like, take a deep breath, slightly more reflective version
Speaker 2: of that conversation? Look like?
Speaker 1: What I try to do is just starting that conversation
Speaker 1: with like, Okay, can we back up and talk about
Speaker 1: how we hope this thing goes?
Speaker 3: What do you hope for it? What do I hope
Speaker 3: for it?
Speaker 1: It's trying to get to that place where you have
Speaker 1: the spirit of Okay, I am doing the best I can,
Speaker 1: and this person I have conflict with right now is
Speaker 1: doing the best he can? And how do I not lash?
Speaker 1: And like lash out is a good word, because like,
Speaker 1: my kids are elementary school age, and I can see
Speaker 1: when I lose my patience and I get a little
Speaker 1: like snippy, it almost goes down like a little ladder.
Speaker 1: I get snippy about something, getting get your shoes on,
Speaker 1: get in the car, And then I can watch my
Speaker 1: nine year old get snippy with my six year old,
Speaker 1: and it's just like, oh, this isn't about some like
Speaker 1: fundamental you know, misalignment and chores in this house. This
Speaker 1: is like I felt bad, I madebody else feel bad.
Speaker 1: They made somebody else feel bad.
Speaker 2: What about the conversations where you have no idea where
Speaker 2: it's going to go. You don't know if they're even
Speaker 2: willing to talk about it. How do you prepare for
Speaker 2: something like that?
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 1: I have a friend who lost her dad. It's been
Speaker 1: a few months, and every interaction that I have, I'm aware, Oh,
Speaker 1: we're catching up and I want to know how she's
Speaker 1: doing with grief.
Speaker 2: HM.
Speaker 1: But I don't want to be that friend who like,
Speaker 1: every time we call, I'm like.
Speaker 3: How are you?
Speaker 1: You know, I've been close to enough people in grief
Speaker 1: who know like, oh God, there's this weird currency to
Speaker 1: getting updates on how I'm doing that people want in on,
Speaker 1: And I don't want to be that friend.
Speaker 3: I want to be the friend who.
Speaker 1: Just like swims up to him and is like, what's
Speaker 1: going on today? We can talk about the weather, we
Speaker 1: can talk about whatever. We can talk about a menu.
Speaker 2: Or we can talk about your dad, or we talk
Speaker 2: about how much nis him?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, So that's kind of that's like a
Speaker 1: micro version of like how's this going to go? It's
Speaker 1: kind of like when you know somebody's going through something.
Speaker 1: But I don't want to be that friend who's like,
Speaker 1: you know, how's it going?
Speaker 3: What are you dad? How's your heartbreak today?
Speaker 1: You know, there's other things where say there's like a
Speaker 1: revelation where somebody is revealing something that's going to fundamentally
Speaker 1: change the way the person you're telling understands the world
Speaker 1: and their place in it. And I think with those
Speaker 1: conversations if you can control the circumstances. It's to like
Speaker 1: prepare yourself, prepare the person that there's going to be
Speaker 1: sort of a different kind of can I talk to
Speaker 1: you about something important? You know, you create a little
Speaker 1: cocoon somehow for a different kind of conversation. I think
Speaker 1: the best kind of planning for a hard conversation is,
Speaker 1: like you plan for what you're going to say to
Speaker 1: the person who's going to find out the thing, and
Speaker 1: then you have consent circles outside of that of the
Speaker 1: other people who know you're having the conversation, so you
Speaker 1: can like debrief and get support from them so that
Speaker 1: the initial reaction of the person isn't something that you
Speaker 1: need to go a certain way because you just can't
Speaker 1: control that.
Speaker 3: If somebody's finding out something.
Speaker 1: Fundamental about your relationship or something that hasn't been honest,
Speaker 1: or if you're a manager who has to lay somebody off,
Speaker 1: you can't go into that conversation expecting that they're going
Speaker 1: to like appreciate hearing that information from you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about when when you're preparing for a conversation
Speaker 2: where you might be on the receiving end of the revelation,
Speaker 2: so you can tell someone's carrying something really heavy, and
Speaker 2: your goal and the conversation is to create a space
Speaker 2: where they could maybe feel comfortable opening up to you
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: I think that the thing that I have learned from
Speaker 1: talking to both people I love and I'm close to
Speaker 1: in real life and people who are strangers as a
Speaker 1: journalist about being that person that that someone is like
Speaker 1: sharing something that they haven't shared before, is is it's
Speaker 1: a huge compliment, but more like it is an immense responsibility,
Speaker 1: because there's like, what is your first reaction? Are you
Speaker 1: trying to lighten the mood and you laugh and it
Speaker 1: could be construed as you laughing at them?
Speaker 3: Is it like.
Speaker 1: You don't know what to do with the information and
Speaker 1: you feel like you want to offer some immediate, prescriptive
Speaker 1: advice that's going to help make it feel less heavy,
Speaker 1: And then that feels really pat and like you didn't
Speaker 1: hear them. I've done all these things. By the way,
Speaker 1: just be clear to all of these stings. You have
Speaker 1: a responsibility to clarify with this person what the expectation
Speaker 1: is about what you are going to do with this information,
Speaker 1: how much it's kept confidential, who you might share it with,
Speaker 1: and why, what you might do to help them, support them,
Speaker 1: or advocate for them. You need their permission to do that.
Speaker 1: I liked fashioning myself somebody who people would confide in.
Speaker 1: That has long been part of my identity, And now
Speaker 1: I almost feel rather than like going immediately into leaning in,
Speaker 1: I keep the middle distance a little bit to make
Speaker 1: sure I'm the right person, like recognizing your ability to
Speaker 1: empathize and the limits of your ability to empathize. It's like,
Speaker 1: am I the right person? And maybe I am the
Speaker 1: right person, but I'm not the right person right now.
Speaker 1: Like other mistakes I've made is not be clear about
Speaker 1: my ability to show up. You know something about raising
Speaker 1: young kids. As I've disappointed a lot of people and
Speaker 1: let some friendships that were very like core to me.
Speaker 1: They're a little bit dried up and need need watering
Speaker 1: when I get more capacity. So I think that's the
Speaker 1: other thing is making sure you're checking in and as
Speaker 1: you can, and when you can't check in, figure out
Speaker 1: how to like acknowledge that so that they don't feel abandoned.
Speaker 2: I'm so curious to know how having kids has shaped
Speaker 2: how you think about difficult conversations. You're a mom to
Speaker 2: two young children, and I imagine you don't engage with
Speaker 2: them as you do with adults. So how have you
Speaker 2: been navigating that space?
Speaker 3: It is profound.
Speaker 1: Something I think about a lot is restraint. I have daughters,
Speaker 1: so there's like a mother daughter just like picture a
Speaker 1: mother daughter trope. And in my version there's like the
Speaker 1: way it expresses itself is I'm both the person that
Speaker 1: they feel the most comfortable sort of falling apart with
Speaker 1: after a long day of school. So they're the most
Speaker 1: like Braddy to me of anybody in their lives.
Speaker 2: You're their safe space. Anna, That's what I always hear.
Speaker 2: I had a friend and tell me recently, I don't
Speaker 2: want to be my child's safe space anymore.
Speaker 3: Man, it's trying.
Speaker 1: So there's that, and then there's also when I really
Speaker 1: want them to get something, and if I've had to
Speaker 1: repeat it or if it's if it's something, the way
Speaker 1: it shows up a lot is like if there's something
Speaker 1: about interacting socially that feels very core to our values
Speaker 1: as a family, whether it's how we talk to people
Speaker 1: who're just meeting and manners, or how we just deal
Speaker 1: with people who are different from us, Like your responsibility
Speaker 1: as a parent is to teach this child how to
Speaker 1: live in civilization. Right, the stakes are high, but kids
Speaker 1: can only take in so much high minded instruction, so
Speaker 1: like there's a certain point where you just get totally
Speaker 1: tuned out. I think this is the same for whether
Speaker 1: you're talking to a child or are grown up. We
Speaker 1: all have our openings where we can hear, and we
Speaker 1: have our times when we just like we're like, whatever,
Speaker 1: what do I need to say to get this lady
Speaker 1: to stop talking to me and move to my next thing?
Speaker 1: And so I'm just I think being a parent has
Speaker 1: made me much more aware about watching for your spots
Speaker 1: and making sure you don't fill the space so that
Speaker 1: them reflecting on something from the backseat of the car
Speaker 1: when you're driving, you just like, don't talk over that
Speaker 1: because you've got some lesson to impart. I love that kids'
Speaker 1: timelines are different than grown ups. I mean, just imagine,
Speaker 1: I'm like somebody who might I've built my professional life
Speaker 1: around getting in there with people, and I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: it with my kids. And like, you know what, Dinna,
Speaker 1: you just got you gotta pace yourself.
Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 2: of plans. What's your advice when you feel like a
Speaker 2: difficult conversation needs to happen, but the other person does
Speaker 2: not want to engage. So let's say there's a conflic
Speaker 2: at work or with your partner and they're just not
Speaker 2: having it. What do you do in a situation like that?
Speaker 1: You can't force somebody to engage in a way that
Speaker 1: you want them to engage, And so then it's the
Speaker 1: questions are if this person can't be with me in
Speaker 1: this way that I want them to be and expect
Speaker 1: them to be, and they're letting me down, can I
Speaker 1: still have a relationship with them? Or do I want
Speaker 1: to be around them? You know, and certainly an employer
Speaker 1: employee relationship is lower stakes to move on from than
Speaker 1: somebody in your family of origin, Like can you figure
Speaker 1: out another way to be in relationship with them but
Speaker 1: have things that you can't expect from each other?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: If I feel like I need something from someone and
Speaker 1: they are not giving it to me, what do I do?
Speaker 1: That's a question about who you are, and you have
Speaker 1: to sit with all those different possibilities that that could raise.
Speaker 1: You know, I was married before, and in my first marriage,
Speaker 1: any relationship has conflicts right and your earlier is like
Speaker 1: part of getting to know each other. You discover the
Speaker 1: ways that you're different, You discover the places where we
Speaker 1: kind of misalign and have.
Speaker 3: To work at it.
Speaker 1: And then when a relationship you know that balance of
Speaker 1: like we've lost so much of the connective tissue that
Speaker 1: holds this together and I'm not giving you what you
Speaker 1: need and You're not giving me what I need because
Speaker 1: we want different things. You sort of knowed it. You
Speaker 1: feel it's heaviness. You think about can I carry this around?
Speaker 1: Is this going to change? Is this temporary or is
Speaker 1: this forever? What does it mean about me that I
Speaker 1: don't know how to have this relationship continue? If we
Speaker 1: can't figure out this core hard conversation, Who am I?
Speaker 1: If I'm somebody who doesn't want to stay in a marriage.
Speaker 1: It's just like this kind of swamp you have to
Speaker 1: trudge through to think, like what of this can I
Speaker 1: tolerate and figure out how to live with? And how
Speaker 1: much of this is so heavy and boggy that like,
Speaker 1: I'm getting stuck in this mud.
Speaker 2: If the person is willing to engage, but you feel
Speaker 2: like there's a moment in the conversation where they're starting
Speaker 2: to close off. Do you have any advice for how
Speaker 2: to help the walls go back down? Or do you
Speaker 2: just kind of pivot? Do you take a break?
Speaker 1: I would try saying like, I noticed that you seems
Speaker 1: like you're getting tired of this conversation. I notice that
Speaker 1: you're sort of losing energy here. Do you want to
Speaker 1: talk about this in another time? You know? Are you frustrated?
Speaker 1: Are you angry? Like just kind of doing that thing
Speaker 1: where you notice you make something that's unspoken or maybe
Speaker 1: meta about the interaction and you make it explicit and
Speaker 1: then see if it opens up and they might tell you, like,
Speaker 1: you know, when you said that one word four sentences ago,
Speaker 1: it really pissed me off, you know, and.
Speaker 3: You might not have been aware of it.
Speaker 1: Or it might be that you've talked for fifty minutes
Speaker 1: and it's you know, eleven forty five pm, and it's
Speaker 1: not the time to like come to a resolution. To
Speaker 1: be continued can be okay, It can be really scary
Speaker 1: for people who think of themselves as like I resolve
Speaker 1: conflict to like sit with something that's unresolved.
Speaker 2: My worst night, Marianna, I can't even sleep well.
Speaker 1: I think that that's so interesting because I feel that
Speaker 1: way too. And it's like something that my husband sometimes
Speaker 1: says when we're like in the middle of some kind
Speaker 1: of hard discussion. He'll be like, we're going to be okay,
Speaker 1: but this really pisses me off when you do this.
Speaker 1: It's just like so little, but just like it just says,
Speaker 1: I'm not rejecting the whole idea of you as a
Speaker 1: human person.
Speaker 3: Anna, you are not bad.
Speaker 2: Right now, and this relationship is not over.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it gets to like our own feelings of
Speaker 1: where we feel insecure and worthy, et cetera. So I
Speaker 1: don't know, I think practicing sitting with unresolved conversations is
Speaker 1: really powerful.
Speaker 2: I just felt that in my soul father way, and
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to interrupt. I felt you were going to
Speaker 2: say something else. I think that's so small it We'll
Speaker 2: let it resonate in your soul a little bit.
Speaker 1: Ding.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is what I personally need to practice. You
Speaker 2: need to practice sitting in the discomfort of an unresolved conversation.
Speaker 2: And I'm sure a lot of people who are listening
Speaker 2: to this will resonate with that. We want closure. We're
Speaker 2: desperate for closure and clarity and definitive answers, And so
Speaker 2: when we don't get that on our timeline, when we
Speaker 2: impose our timeline and someone else who is a very
Speaker 2: different timeline and a very different level of patience and
Speaker 2: tolerance for uncertainty or unresolved things, that's when we drive
Speaker 2: ourselves crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's a little bit like that gear that
Speaker 1: I will go into at a dinner party. It's the
Speaker 1: way I like to relate to somebody who's like driving
Speaker 1: right to them. The other thing about that interaction is
Speaker 1: I never feel out of control. I am like engaging
Speaker 1: with somebody in the way that I want to engage
Speaker 1: with them, and if they're giving it back to me,
Speaker 1: we're like digging in.
Speaker 3: I don't feel out of control.
Speaker 1: I feel out of control when somebody is like I
Speaker 1: don't want to engage with you in the way that
Speaker 1: you're coming at me, it's.
Speaker 2: Like what, yes, okay, wait, tell me more about that. So,
Speaker 2: like when you're doing the Anna version and they're not
Speaker 2: having it, you can kind of feel like things are
Speaker 2: going off the rails a little bit. Are there questions
Speaker 2: or phrases or mechanisms you have to help pull yourself
Speaker 2: back for a second and kind of recalibrate, like re engage.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's just, uh, I think it's
Speaker 1: off putting me or it's surprising to me because it's
Speaker 1: a it's an affront to my version of charm.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is how I work, and you're not
Speaker 1: meeting me, and it makes me feel It'll make me
Speaker 1: feel self conscious. It'll make me be like, oh God,
Speaker 1: don't they see that I'm coming with good intentions and
Speaker 1: I'm good, and I'm worthy, and I'm righteous and whatever,
Speaker 1: Like I'm curious, I'm all the things that I was
Speaker 1: taught to be in Unitarian.
Speaker 3: Church, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But the fact is, like I'm not in control. I
Speaker 1: think of it in three D. It's three dimensional space.
Speaker 1: It's not me being able to come at somebody and
Speaker 1: have the kind of transaction I most want to have
Speaker 1: to feel the most emotionally sort of secure and fed.
Speaker 1: But like, if I can figure out how to be
Speaker 1: next to them without needing them to like do the
Speaker 1: thing in the way that I know how to do
Speaker 1: it best, and I can be patient and humble, it
Speaker 1: is a surrender of control. I guess, like Anna, you
Speaker 1: have no idea what somebody is going through in a
Speaker 1: certain day, even somebody you know really well, if it's
Speaker 1: not clicking, you're going to think, oh, it's me, and
Speaker 1: I want to figure out how to get back into click,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to like force it.
Speaker 3: But sometimes it's just like not your day.
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of us, when we think about
Speaker 2: approaching hard conversations, we focus so much on saying the
Speaker 2: right thing. So in my head, I'm rehearsing throughout the
Speaker 2: day exactly having to phrase this line and that line,
Speaker 2: and what's my delivery going to be like, and anticipating
Speaker 2: what they're going to say in response, and we forget
Speaker 2: actually that one of the greatest tools at our disposal
Speaker 2: is silence. It's just letting moments sit. You're the Queen
Speaker 2: of observing silences, So tell me a bit more about that.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit like when you're talking with someone
Speaker 1: and something has just happened, like you feel it happened
Speaker 1: in a conversation, whether it's a sentence that sums up
Speaker 1: something really big that you were sort of talking towards and.
Speaker 3: Then like oof.
Speaker 1: It's almost like when you don't rush in to just
Speaker 1: tell them you understood, or you have another question or
Speaker 1: like make them feel better when you just sit and
Speaker 1: just let it. You know, it's kind of like throwing
Speaker 1: a brock into a pond, like you just let it
Speaker 1: have its moment. It's sort of a sign of reverence
Speaker 1: or what has just been expressed.
Speaker 3: It also can be.
Speaker 1: Just like a you know, you're a musician, it's sort
Speaker 1: of like arrest or almost like if it's a really
Speaker 1: big thing, you're like, maybe we need to move to
Speaker 1: the next movement. I'm gonna I want to just like
Speaker 1: respect that something. This was something, So what I'll do.
Speaker 1: I noticed my this isn't conscious, but I've noticed myself
Speaker 1: over the years, like just sitting and I'll take a
Speaker 1: deep breath in an interview set, and then unnoticed, the
Speaker 1: person I'm interviewing will take a deep breath because they've
Speaker 1: been sort of moving towards this saying, and then something
Speaker 1: happens and then it's like, oh yeah, yeah. It's letting
Speaker 1: something be big without having to be fixed or smoothed
Speaker 1: over stand it over. I think often when people jump
Speaker 1: in to fill gaps in silence, it's to indicate that
Speaker 1: having an uncomfortable feeling is okay, and maybe there's this
Speaker 1: other thing you know.
Speaker 3: Like have you talked with arapist?
Speaker 1: You know, like we want to say something that's going
Speaker 1: to make it feel tolerable. And sometimes just big things
Speaker 1: just need a little bit of air before you can
Speaker 1: start thinking about what to do about them.
Speaker 2: For someone who's listening, who's mustered up the courage to
Speaker 2: have that big, hard conversation, is there one final thought
Speaker 2: you would leave them with, or some form of encouragement
Speaker 2: or some wisdom from all of your years doing this
Speaker 2: in your personal and professional life.
Speaker 1: I think if you're on the doorstep of a conversation
Speaker 1: that makes you feel intimidated and nervous, just practice. It
Speaker 1: might seem so dorky, but practicing really helps with someone
Speaker 1: who knows you, with someone who can sit with you
Speaker 1: and say, like, what's the most important objective you have
Speaker 1: for this conversation? Is it to tell them this thing?
Speaker 1: Is it to feel reconnected in this other way? Like,
Speaker 1: we have a lot of different mixed objectives when we
Speaker 1: have relational conversations, and there's sometimes at cross purposes, and
Speaker 1: it can be so clarifying to just have an ally
Speaker 1: who helps you figure out just that forest of feelings
Speaker 1: so that you can feel confident that what you are
Speaker 1: trying to express or bringing to the conversation is something
Speaker 1: you've thought through and then you have that person to
Speaker 1: come back or whether the conversation goes well or goes terribly,
Speaker 1: Because these siks are not one and done like these
Speaker 1: hard conversations. I think we talk about them as if
Speaker 1: there's these discreet things. What hard conversations are in service
Speaker 1: of is a relationship, and that is ongoing. And so
Speaker 1: it's about that particular relationship where you haven't want to
Speaker 1: talk about that thing, and then surrounding yourself with one
Speaker 1: or as many relationships as you need to feel like
Speaker 1: you've got back up to go into that scary thing.
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 2: please follow a slight change of plans wherever you listen
Speaker 2: to podcasts and join me next time when we explore
Speaker 2: what happens when the dream you've spent your whole life
Speaker 2: chasing begins to hurt your well being.
Speaker 4: I almost saw myself as this piece of glass and
Speaker 4: it got a crack, and you get up and you
Speaker 4: try to put a little band aid on it. You
Speaker 4: know that doesn't work, and then another crack, and another
Speaker 4: and another, and then you kind of just wonder, at
Speaker 4: what point is it just gonna shatter?
Speaker 2: That's next time on A Slight Change of Plans. A
Speaker 2: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced
Speaker 2: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Changed family includes our
Speaker 2: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our
Speaker 2: producers Britney Cronin and Megan Luvin, and our sound engineer
Speaker 2: Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and
Speaker 2: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of
Speaker 2: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks
Speaker 2: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks
Speaker 2: to Jimmy. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans
Speaker 2: on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.