1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:31,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin hard conversations. I think we talk about them as 2 00:00:31,676 --> 00:00:35,636 Speaker 1: if there's these discreete things. What hard conversations are in 3 00:00:35,716 --> 00:00:39,596 Speaker 1: service of is a relationship and that is ongoing. 4 00:00:40,516 --> 00:00:43,596 Speaker 2: Anna Sale is the creator and host of Death, Sex 5 00:00:43,636 --> 00:00:47,196 Speaker 2: and Money, a show that explores the big questions and 6 00:00:47,276 --> 00:00:50,556 Speaker 2: hard choices that are often left out of polite conversation. 7 00:00:51,596 --> 00:00:54,796 Speaker 2: She believes that sometimes the most powerful thing you can 8 00:00:54,836 --> 00:00:58,116 Speaker 2: say during a tough conversation is nothing at all. 9 00:00:58,916 --> 00:01:01,516 Speaker 1: I think often when people jump in to fill gaps 10 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:06,236 Speaker 1: in silence, it's to indicate that having an uncomfortable feeling 11 00:01:06,276 --> 00:01:06,596 Speaker 1: is okay. 12 00:01:06,636 --> 00:01:08,756 Speaker 3: And maybe there's this other thing, you know, like, Hugh, 13 00:01:09,276 --> 00:01:10,236 Speaker 3: have you talked with arapist? 14 00:01:10,396 --> 00:01:12,636 Speaker 1: You know, like we want to say something that's going 15 00:01:12,676 --> 00:01:17,876 Speaker 1: to make it feel tolerable, and sometimes big things just 16 00:01:17,916 --> 00:01:18,916 Speaker 1: need a little bit of air. 17 00:01:24,196 --> 00:01:31,276 Speaker 2: On today's show, How to Have Hard Conversations, I'm Maya Schunker, 18 00:01:31,516 --> 00:01:34,756 Speaker 2: a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 19 00:01:34,796 --> 00:01:37,956 Speaker 2: slight change of plans, a show about who we are 20 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:49,036 Speaker 2: and who we become in the face of a big change. Lately, 21 00:01:49,316 --> 00:01:52,716 Speaker 2: the world has been feeling super heavy, and it's made 22 00:01:52,716 --> 00:01:55,916 Speaker 2: me lose my appetite for hard conversations in my personal 23 00:01:55,956 --> 00:01:59,876 Speaker 2: life about even the small stuff. This worries me because 24 00:01:59,956 --> 00:02:03,996 Speaker 2: hard conversations are essential. They're how we process and work 25 00:02:04,036 --> 00:02:07,756 Speaker 2: through the challenges in our lives. Today's episode is a 26 00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:11,676 Speaker 2: gentle nudge to initiate those conversations that need to be 27 00:02:11,796 --> 00:02:15,956 Speaker 2: had and to bring our empathy, patience, and care to 28 00:02:15,996 --> 00:02:20,276 Speaker 2: these exchanges. Anna Sayle has spent her career leaning into 29 00:02:20,276 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 2: difficult topics, both on her podcast and for her book, 30 00:02:24,196 --> 00:02:28,076 Speaker 2: Let's Talk About Hard Things the life changing conversations that 31 00:02:28,076 --> 00:02:32,236 Speaker 2: connect us. In this episode, Anna reflects on what she's learned, 32 00:02:32,636 --> 00:02:36,276 Speaker 2: what's helped, what hasn't, and what she's still figuring out. 33 00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:40,836 Speaker 2: I wonder if you remember a time where you really 34 00:02:40,836 --> 00:02:44,476 Speaker 2: struggled to say something important to someone else, and what 35 00:02:44,596 --> 00:02:46,236 Speaker 2: was it about it that made it so hard. 36 00:02:46,876 --> 00:02:51,156 Speaker 1: I have four sisters, So in any family, as you 37 00:02:51,156 --> 00:02:53,876 Speaker 1: get older, you realize that, like, the different siblings have 38 00:02:54,036 --> 00:02:57,036 Speaker 1: very different experiences in the family depending on how they 39 00:02:57,116 --> 00:02:59,156 Speaker 1: align with parents' expectations. 40 00:02:59,236 --> 00:03:01,596 Speaker 2: Or I'm one of four, so you know, totally get it. 41 00:03:01,676 --> 00:03:06,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I remember different sisters of mine at 42 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:09,996 Speaker 1: different points in their lives. Teenagers call just would have 43 00:03:10,036 --> 00:03:13,796 Speaker 1: different responses to the way they talked about our parents 44 00:03:13,956 --> 00:03:16,996 Speaker 1: or whether they were felt like they had our parents' approval. 45 00:03:17,116 --> 00:03:20,916 Speaker 1: And I was a middle kid who did well in school, 46 00:03:21,516 --> 00:03:23,916 Speaker 1: and when I did things that were against the rules, 47 00:03:23,916 --> 00:03:27,116 Speaker 1: I never got caught. So like I just like slid through, 48 00:03:27,756 --> 00:03:30,196 Speaker 1: you know, I just like knew how to bob and 49 00:03:30,236 --> 00:03:33,436 Speaker 1: weave and didn't really have trouble with my parents and 50 00:03:33,676 --> 00:03:36,956 Speaker 1: other sisters of mine, like they had different responses to 51 00:03:36,996 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 1: confrontation and had different relationships with our parents. And so 52 00:03:40,116 --> 00:03:43,476 Speaker 1: I can remember those early conversations about, you know, try 53 00:03:43,516 --> 00:03:47,156 Speaker 1: and understand when something was upsetting them, and then also 54 00:03:47,196 --> 00:03:53,716 Speaker 1: having that parallel conversation or like desire to be protective 55 00:03:53,996 --> 00:03:56,916 Speaker 1: of how I saw our family and how I saw 56 00:03:56,996 --> 00:04:01,116 Speaker 1: our parents think it was too upsetting to let their 57 00:04:01,876 --> 00:04:04,436 Speaker 1: version of what their experience in our family had been 58 00:04:04,916 --> 00:04:06,996 Speaker 1: for me to sit with the conversation. 59 00:04:07,236 --> 00:04:10,876 Speaker 2: Do you feel like you play a mediator role within 60 00:04:10,916 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 2: your own family, which is when you see that there's 61 00:04:13,716 --> 00:04:17,116 Speaker 2: some sort of strife, you try and actually facilitate an 62 00:04:17,196 --> 00:04:18,316 Speaker 2: open dialogue about it. 63 00:04:20,396 --> 00:04:23,076 Speaker 1: Yes, And I think I would have more fully owned 64 00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:26,396 Speaker 1: that earlier in my life, because there's a way that 65 00:04:26,396 --> 00:04:29,956 Speaker 1: that fit with my idea of myself as super relationally 66 00:04:29,996 --> 00:04:34,356 Speaker 1: advanced and skillful. But there's this way that trying to 67 00:04:34,396 --> 00:04:37,276 Speaker 1: be in the middle and moderate and like help people 68 00:04:37,316 --> 00:04:39,396 Speaker 1: hear each other in ways that you think that they're 69 00:04:39,436 --> 00:04:45,836 Speaker 1: missing that that's like a power move that's kind of obnoxious. Like, 70 00:04:47,036 --> 00:04:50,596 Speaker 1: so when you step in to moderate something, you're becoming 71 00:04:50,636 --> 00:04:53,956 Speaker 1: the podcast host and the difficult relational piece in your family, 72 00:04:53,996 --> 00:04:55,956 Speaker 1: and not everybody wants you to play that role. 73 00:04:56,716 --> 00:05:01,036 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I ask this because I am cut from the 74 00:05:01,076 --> 00:05:03,756 Speaker 2: same cloth. I don't know if it's a pathology around 75 00:05:03,796 --> 00:05:07,316 Speaker 2: peace seeking or the fact that my brain kind of 76 00:05:07,356 --> 00:05:11,476 Speaker 2: instinctively says, of course, a conversation would make this better. 77 00:05:12,196 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 2: But I feel such an impatience with silence and with 78 00:05:16,956 --> 00:05:20,996 Speaker 2: just pushing stuff under the rug that I feel like 79 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:24,996 Speaker 2: a desperation in my life to expose everything, even if 80 00:05:24,996 --> 00:05:27,476 Speaker 2: it leads to a sense of calamity in the moment. 81 00:05:27,636 --> 00:05:30,716 Speaker 2: I think I just instinctively believe will be some sort 82 00:05:30,756 --> 00:05:32,676 Speaker 2: of payoff down the line. 83 00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:34,476 Speaker 3: You so you're a disruptor, Yeah. 84 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:38,076 Speaker 2: Very disruptive, and often it works, but then sometimes it 85 00:05:38,116 --> 00:05:42,156 Speaker 2: makes things worse. And that is really a failure of 86 00:05:42,196 --> 00:05:46,636 Speaker 2: mine to empathize with a person who would prefer to 87 00:05:46,676 --> 00:05:48,876 Speaker 2: not talk about the thing I'm placing kind of a 88 00:05:49,316 --> 00:05:52,316 Speaker 2: norm on the other person, or I'm assuming they carry 89 00:05:52,356 --> 00:05:53,236 Speaker 2: my psychology. 90 00:05:54,036 --> 00:05:58,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I totally get that impulse, especially when it's 91 00:05:58,796 --> 00:06:01,356 Speaker 1: like among people you really love and you want you 92 00:06:01,396 --> 00:06:03,396 Speaker 1: want it to get on with it. Let's just like 93 00:06:03,596 --> 00:06:07,596 Speaker 1: get on with it and move to a new way 94 00:06:07,596 --> 00:06:10,196 Speaker 1: of understanding each other. I mean, I wrote a book. 95 00:06:10,196 --> 00:06:12,196 Speaker 1: I wrote a benmore. I had a whole chapter about family. 96 00:06:12,236 --> 00:06:15,676 Speaker 1: I was like sharing drafts with all my family members. 97 00:06:15,756 --> 00:06:17,396 Speaker 3: How's this read to you? How's this read to you? 98 00:06:17,916 --> 00:06:17,996 Speaker 4: So? 99 00:06:18,036 --> 00:06:20,236 Speaker 1: I think I was definitely playing that role when I 100 00:06:20,276 --> 00:06:24,396 Speaker 1: was doing that, and then it was kind of like, Okay, 101 00:06:24,396 --> 00:06:25,036 Speaker 1: I've done that. 102 00:06:25,356 --> 00:06:26,556 Speaker 3: We're just going to like step. 103 00:06:26,316 --> 00:06:28,396 Speaker 1: Back and let everybody have their own experience in the 104 00:06:28,436 --> 00:06:30,316 Speaker 1: family and sort of be a member of it and 105 00:06:30,396 --> 00:06:35,156 Speaker 1: observe and realize that this is an organism that has 106 00:06:35,236 --> 00:06:37,436 Speaker 1: a lot of different stuff going on. 107 00:06:37,956 --> 00:06:40,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, so zooming out a little bit. I mean, you've 108 00:06:40,756 --> 00:06:45,956 Speaker 2: obviously made a career around having difficult conversations with people. 109 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:51,556 Speaker 2: How do you prepare for a hard conversation with someone 110 00:06:51,676 --> 00:06:54,436 Speaker 2: with your family, with your husband, with friends. Yeah. 111 00:06:54,916 --> 00:06:58,236 Speaker 1: When I think of hard conversations now. They don't happen 112 00:06:58,516 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 1: during podcast recordings. They happen with my husband, they happen 113 00:07:01,556 --> 00:07:05,156 Speaker 1: with my closest friends, because those are the ones where 114 00:07:05,196 --> 00:07:09,836 Speaker 1: there's stakes and where it hurts if you feel like 115 00:07:10,076 --> 00:07:14,876 Speaker 1: your intentions are not sort of seen clearly, or that 116 00:07:14,956 --> 00:07:18,196 Speaker 1: I'm missing something that's that I'm doing, that's really hurtful. 117 00:07:18,716 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 1: So I think that the way that I try to 118 00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:26,156 Speaker 1: prepare is I can feel it in my body when 119 00:07:26,156 --> 00:07:28,876 Speaker 1: I get seized up with sort of like I get 120 00:07:28,916 --> 00:07:31,636 Speaker 1: something to got to bring up, you know, I'm feeling wronged, 121 00:07:31,876 --> 00:07:36,036 Speaker 1: you know, And often it's something around feeling overwhelmed or 122 00:07:36,156 --> 00:07:39,916 Speaker 1: like some way that I've tried really hard hasn't been 123 00:07:40,076 --> 00:07:45,516 Speaker 1: sufficiently acknowledged and I'm worn out, and it's really hard 124 00:07:45,596 --> 00:07:48,636 Speaker 1: not to just start the conversation right in that, you know, 125 00:07:48,716 --> 00:07:51,276 Speaker 1: like pissed off way, Yeah. 126 00:07:51,076 --> 00:07:53,436 Speaker 2: Like you don't appreciate that I'm doing the dishes every night. 127 00:07:53,596 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that doesn't always go well. It's like how 128 00:07:57,716 --> 00:08:04,236 Speaker 1: do I slow down and take a breath, And then 129 00:08:05,316 --> 00:08:08,796 Speaker 1: after I sort of can breathe a minute, I have 130 00:08:08,996 --> 00:08:13,676 Speaker 1: just a little bit more space around the emotion of 131 00:08:13,716 --> 00:08:16,436 Speaker 1: it that I can like be a little bit more 132 00:08:17,316 --> 00:08:21,036 Speaker 1: in control of how I respond, because when I don't 133 00:08:21,076 --> 00:08:24,476 Speaker 1: take that minute, it's just if you're pissed, you've got 134 00:08:24,476 --> 00:08:28,076 Speaker 1: something to say, it doesn't land well, and then you're 135 00:08:28,076 --> 00:08:30,636 Speaker 1: feeling like you're having to defend yourself. Then it's just 136 00:08:30,676 --> 00:08:36,756 Speaker 1: like tight self protection defensive Anna, She's just going to 137 00:08:36,796 --> 00:08:39,996 Speaker 1: be present in protecting herself until she gets tired. 138 00:08:40,756 --> 00:08:42,156 Speaker 3: Then you can finally resolve. 139 00:08:42,956 --> 00:08:45,836 Speaker 2: And I'm assuming you lack receptivity to what other person's saying, 140 00:08:45,876 --> 00:08:50,476 Speaker 2: so nothing other than Anna, you are totally right. 141 00:08:50,476 --> 00:08:53,516 Speaker 3: Oh my god, And how could I not have seen? 142 00:08:53,756 --> 00:08:55,796 Speaker 2: And I think to myself every day how lucky I 143 00:08:55,836 --> 00:08:57,756 Speaker 2: am that you were willing to marry me and that 144 00:08:57,836 --> 00:08:58,836 Speaker 2: you do do the dishes. 145 00:08:58,916 --> 00:09:00,756 Speaker 3: My god, Maya, maybe we should get married. 146 00:09:01,996 --> 00:09:05,316 Speaker 2: I know, I think so. So I think we can 147 00:09:05,356 --> 00:09:08,076 Speaker 2: all imagine pretty clearly what the pissed off version looks like, 148 00:09:08,516 --> 00:09:11,516 Speaker 2: Oh my god, you never appreciate me. What is the 149 00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:16,276 Speaker 2: more like, take a deep breath, slightly more reflective version 150 00:09:16,316 --> 00:09:17,516 Speaker 2: of that conversation? Look like? 151 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:20,476 Speaker 1: What I try to do is just starting that conversation 152 00:09:20,556 --> 00:09:23,836 Speaker 1: with like, Okay, can we back up and talk about 153 00:09:23,836 --> 00:09:25,636 Speaker 1: how we hope this thing goes? 154 00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:27,236 Speaker 3: What do you hope for it? What do I hope 155 00:09:27,276 --> 00:09:27,796 Speaker 3: for it? 156 00:09:27,796 --> 00:09:30,996 Speaker 1: It's trying to get to that place where you have 157 00:09:31,276 --> 00:09:33,876 Speaker 1: the spirit of Okay, I am doing the best I can, 158 00:09:34,596 --> 00:09:37,236 Speaker 1: and this person I have conflict with right now is 159 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:41,556 Speaker 1: doing the best he can? And how do I not lash? 160 00:09:41,676 --> 00:09:43,396 Speaker 1: And like lash out is a good word, because like, 161 00:09:43,476 --> 00:09:45,956 Speaker 1: my kids are elementary school age, and I can see 162 00:09:46,316 --> 00:09:48,956 Speaker 1: when I lose my patience and I get a little 163 00:09:49,036 --> 00:09:52,196 Speaker 1: like snippy, it almost goes down like a little ladder. 164 00:09:52,436 --> 00:09:54,916 Speaker 1: I get snippy about something, getting get your shoes on, 165 00:09:54,956 --> 00:09:56,596 Speaker 1: get in the car, And then I can watch my 166 00:09:56,676 --> 00:09:58,476 Speaker 1: nine year old get snippy with my six year old, 167 00:09:58,876 --> 00:10:01,916 Speaker 1: and it's just like, oh, this isn't about some like 168 00:10:01,996 --> 00:10:05,916 Speaker 1: fundamental you know, misalignment and chores in this house. This 169 00:10:05,996 --> 00:10:09,836 Speaker 1: is like I felt bad, I madebody else feel bad. 170 00:10:09,836 --> 00:10:11,036 Speaker 1: They made somebody else feel bad. 171 00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:15,316 Speaker 2: What about the conversations where you have no idea where 172 00:10:15,356 --> 00:10:17,236 Speaker 2: it's going to go. You don't know if they're even 173 00:10:17,236 --> 00:10:19,996 Speaker 2: willing to talk about it. How do you prepare for 174 00:10:20,076 --> 00:10:20,836 Speaker 2: something like that? 175 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:22,516 Speaker 3: I think. 176 00:10:24,796 --> 00:10:27,916 Speaker 1: I have a friend who lost her dad. It's been 177 00:10:28,116 --> 00:10:35,436 Speaker 1: a few months, and every interaction that I have, I'm aware, Oh, 178 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:37,076 Speaker 1: we're catching up and I want to know how she's 179 00:10:37,116 --> 00:10:38,556 Speaker 1: doing with grief. 180 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 2: HM. 181 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:42,196 Speaker 1: But I don't want to be that friend who like, 182 00:10:42,436 --> 00:10:43,756 Speaker 1: every time we call, I'm like. 183 00:10:43,956 --> 00:10:46,196 Speaker 3: How are you? 184 00:10:46,196 --> 00:10:49,076 Speaker 1: You know, I've been close to enough people in grief 185 00:10:49,076 --> 00:10:53,036 Speaker 1: who know like, oh God, there's this weird currency to 186 00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:57,076 Speaker 1: getting updates on how I'm doing that people want in on, 187 00:10:57,476 --> 00:10:59,036 Speaker 1: And I don't want to be that friend. 188 00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:00,436 Speaker 3: I want to be the friend who. 189 00:11:00,396 --> 00:11:04,236 Speaker 1: Just like swims up to him and is like, what's 190 00:11:04,276 --> 00:11:06,956 Speaker 1: going on today? We can talk about the weather, we 191 00:11:06,956 --> 00:11:09,236 Speaker 1: can talk about whatever. We can talk about a menu. 192 00:11:09,636 --> 00:11:11,356 Speaker 2: Or we can talk about your dad, or we talk 193 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:12,436 Speaker 2: about how much nis him? 194 00:11:12,516 --> 00:11:15,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, So that's kind of that's like a 195 00:11:15,476 --> 00:11:17,836 Speaker 1: micro version of like how's this going to go? It's 196 00:11:17,916 --> 00:11:20,596 Speaker 1: kind of like when you know somebody's going through something. 197 00:11:21,596 --> 00:11:23,236 Speaker 1: But I don't want to be that friend who's like, 198 00:11:24,276 --> 00:11:25,636 Speaker 1: you know, how's it going? 199 00:11:25,676 --> 00:11:27,716 Speaker 3: What are you dad? How's your heartbreak today? 200 00:11:27,916 --> 00:11:32,316 Speaker 1: You know, there's other things where say there's like a 201 00:11:32,356 --> 00:11:35,996 Speaker 1: revelation where somebody is revealing something that's going to fundamentally 202 00:11:36,116 --> 00:11:40,796 Speaker 1: change the way the person you're telling understands the world 203 00:11:41,236 --> 00:11:43,436 Speaker 1: and their place in it. And I think with those 204 00:11:43,476 --> 00:11:47,516 Speaker 1: conversations if you can control the circumstances. It's to like 205 00:11:48,116 --> 00:11:51,196 Speaker 1: prepare yourself, prepare the person that there's going to be 206 00:11:51,236 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 1: sort of a different kind of can I talk to 207 00:11:53,716 --> 00:11:57,116 Speaker 1: you about something important? You know, you create a little 208 00:11:57,116 --> 00:12:01,596 Speaker 1: cocoon somehow for a different kind of conversation. I think 209 00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:03,636 Speaker 1: the best kind of planning for a hard conversation is, 210 00:12:03,636 --> 00:12:05,236 Speaker 1: like you plan for what you're going to say to 211 00:12:05,276 --> 00:12:07,876 Speaker 1: the person who's going to find out the thing, and 212 00:12:07,916 --> 00:12:10,636 Speaker 1: then you have consent circles outside of that of the 213 00:12:10,676 --> 00:12:13,196 Speaker 1: other people who know you're having the conversation, so you 214 00:12:13,276 --> 00:12:16,236 Speaker 1: can like debrief and get support from them so that 215 00:12:16,276 --> 00:12:20,676 Speaker 1: the initial reaction of the person isn't something that you 216 00:12:20,796 --> 00:12:23,596 Speaker 1: need to go a certain way because you just can't 217 00:12:23,636 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 1: control that. 218 00:12:24,396 --> 00:12:26,076 Speaker 3: If somebody's finding out something. 219 00:12:26,276 --> 00:12:31,236 Speaker 1: Fundamental about your relationship or something that hasn't been honest, 220 00:12:31,436 --> 00:12:33,996 Speaker 1: or if you're a manager who has to lay somebody off, 221 00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:37,636 Speaker 1: you can't go into that conversation expecting that they're going 222 00:12:37,716 --> 00:12:39,796 Speaker 1: to like appreciate hearing that information from you. 223 00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, what about when when you're preparing for a conversation 224 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:46,436 Speaker 2: where you might be on the receiving end of the revelation, 225 00:12:46,716 --> 00:12:50,516 Speaker 2: so you can tell someone's carrying something really heavy, and 226 00:12:50,556 --> 00:12:54,396 Speaker 2: your goal and the conversation is to create a space 227 00:12:54,436 --> 00:12:56,516 Speaker 2: where they could maybe feel comfortable opening up to you 228 00:12:56,556 --> 00:12:56,956 Speaker 2: about it. 229 00:12:57,756 --> 00:13:00,196 Speaker 1: I think that the thing that I have learned from 230 00:13:00,316 --> 00:13:03,316 Speaker 1: talking to both people I love and I'm close to 231 00:13:03,436 --> 00:13:05,996 Speaker 1: in real life and people who are strangers as a 232 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:10,516 Speaker 1: journalist about being that person that that someone is like 233 00:13:10,596 --> 00:13:17,156 Speaker 1: sharing something that they haven't shared before, is is it's 234 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:22,756 Speaker 1: a huge compliment, but more like it is an immense responsibility, 235 00:13:24,156 --> 00:13:28,276 Speaker 1: because there's like, what is your first reaction? Are you 236 00:13:28,316 --> 00:13:30,556 Speaker 1: trying to lighten the mood and you laugh and it 237 00:13:30,596 --> 00:13:32,476 Speaker 1: could be construed as you laughing at them? 238 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:34,356 Speaker 3: Is it like. 239 00:13:36,116 --> 00:13:37,916 Speaker 1: You don't know what to do with the information and 240 00:13:37,956 --> 00:13:42,196 Speaker 1: you feel like you want to offer some immediate, prescriptive 241 00:13:42,276 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 1: advice that's going to help make it feel less heavy, 242 00:13:44,756 --> 00:13:48,316 Speaker 1: And then that feels really pat and like you didn't 243 00:13:48,356 --> 00:13:50,996 Speaker 1: hear them. I've done all these things. By the way, 244 00:13:51,436 --> 00:13:56,236 Speaker 1: just be clear to all of these stings. You have 245 00:13:56,276 --> 00:14:00,276 Speaker 1: a responsibility to clarify with this person what the expectation 246 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:02,636 Speaker 1: is about what you are going to do with this information, 247 00:14:03,116 --> 00:14:06,516 Speaker 1: how much it's kept confidential, who you might share it with, 248 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:09,596 Speaker 1: and why, what you might do to help them, support them, 249 00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:12,956 Speaker 1: or advocate for them. You need their permission to do that. 250 00:14:13,516 --> 00:14:16,916 Speaker 1: I liked fashioning myself somebody who people would confide in. 251 00:14:17,116 --> 00:14:21,916 Speaker 1: That has long been part of my identity, And now 252 00:14:22,036 --> 00:14:26,836 Speaker 1: I almost feel rather than like going immediately into leaning in, 253 00:14:27,036 --> 00:14:29,036 Speaker 1: I keep the middle distance a little bit to make 254 00:14:29,036 --> 00:14:32,436 Speaker 1: sure I'm the right person, like recognizing your ability to 255 00:14:32,876 --> 00:14:36,556 Speaker 1: empathize and the limits of your ability to empathize. It's like, 256 00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:38,756 Speaker 1: am I the right person? And maybe I am the 257 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:40,716 Speaker 1: right person, but I'm not the right person right now. 258 00:14:41,436 --> 00:14:44,836 Speaker 1: Like other mistakes I've made is not be clear about 259 00:14:44,876 --> 00:14:50,156 Speaker 1: my ability to show up. You know something about raising 260 00:14:50,196 --> 00:14:53,236 Speaker 1: young kids. As I've disappointed a lot of people and 261 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:57,196 Speaker 1: let some friendships that were very like core to me. 262 00:14:57,916 --> 00:15:01,076 Speaker 1: They're a little bit dried up and need need watering 263 00:15:01,276 --> 00:15:03,916 Speaker 1: when I get more capacity. So I think that's the 264 00:15:03,996 --> 00:15:09,396 Speaker 1: other thing is making sure you're checking in and as 265 00:15:09,436 --> 00:15:12,796 Speaker 1: you can, and when you can't check in, figure out 266 00:15:12,796 --> 00:15:15,956 Speaker 1: how to like acknowledge that so that they don't feel abandoned. 267 00:15:16,676 --> 00:15:19,556 Speaker 2: I'm so curious to know how having kids has shaped 268 00:15:19,596 --> 00:15:23,316 Speaker 2: how you think about difficult conversations. You're a mom to 269 00:15:23,396 --> 00:15:26,676 Speaker 2: two young children, and I imagine you don't engage with 270 00:15:26,676 --> 00:15:29,916 Speaker 2: them as you do with adults. So how have you 271 00:15:30,036 --> 00:15:31,356 Speaker 2: been navigating that space? 272 00:15:32,516 --> 00:15:34,156 Speaker 3: It is profound. 273 00:15:35,156 --> 00:15:44,036 Speaker 1: Something I think about a lot is restraint. I have daughters, 274 00:15:44,116 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 1: so there's like a mother daughter just like picture a 275 00:15:46,316 --> 00:15:51,556 Speaker 1: mother daughter trope. And in my version there's like the 276 00:15:51,556 --> 00:15:56,516 Speaker 1: way it expresses itself is I'm both the person that 277 00:15:56,516 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 1: they feel the most comfortable sort of falling apart with 278 00:15:59,196 --> 00:16:01,836 Speaker 1: after a long day of school. So they're the most 279 00:16:02,156 --> 00:16:04,916 Speaker 1: like Braddy to me of anybody in their lives. 280 00:16:05,636 --> 00:16:08,356 Speaker 2: You're their safe space. Anna, That's what I always hear. 281 00:16:08,596 --> 00:16:10,836 Speaker 2: I had a friend and tell me recently, I don't 282 00:16:10,876 --> 00:16:13,516 Speaker 2: want to be my child's safe space anymore. 283 00:16:14,636 --> 00:16:16,316 Speaker 3: Man, it's trying. 284 00:16:17,156 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 1: So there's that, and then there's also when I really 285 00:16:20,596 --> 00:16:22,796 Speaker 1: want them to get something, and if I've had to 286 00:16:22,836 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 1: repeat it or if it's if it's something, the way 287 00:16:26,036 --> 00:16:28,316 Speaker 1: it shows up a lot is like if there's something 288 00:16:28,356 --> 00:16:32,876 Speaker 1: about interacting socially that feels very core to our values 289 00:16:32,916 --> 00:16:36,996 Speaker 1: as a family, whether it's how we talk to people 290 00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:41,756 Speaker 1: who're just meeting and manners, or how we just deal 291 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:45,076 Speaker 1: with people who are different from us, Like your responsibility 292 00:16:45,076 --> 00:16:46,876 Speaker 1: as a parent is to teach this child how to 293 00:16:46,916 --> 00:16:50,956 Speaker 1: live in civilization. Right, the stakes are high, but kids 294 00:16:50,996 --> 00:16:56,996 Speaker 1: can only take in so much high minded instruction, so 295 00:16:57,196 --> 00:16:59,676 Speaker 1: like there's a certain point where you just get totally 296 00:16:59,996 --> 00:17:03,756 Speaker 1: tuned out. I think this is the same for whether 297 00:17:03,796 --> 00:17:05,636 Speaker 1: you're talking to a child or are grown up. We 298 00:17:05,796 --> 00:17:09,356 Speaker 1: all have our openings where we can hear, and we 299 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 1: have our times when we just like we're like, whatever, 300 00:17:12,436 --> 00:17:14,116 Speaker 1: what do I need to say to get this lady 301 00:17:14,116 --> 00:17:16,196 Speaker 1: to stop talking to me and move to my next thing? 302 00:17:16,996 --> 00:17:19,636 Speaker 1: And so I'm just I think being a parent has 303 00:17:19,636 --> 00:17:22,636 Speaker 1: made me much more aware about watching for your spots 304 00:17:23,076 --> 00:17:25,476 Speaker 1: and making sure you don't fill the space so that 305 00:17:25,876 --> 00:17:28,596 Speaker 1: them reflecting on something from the backseat of the car 306 00:17:28,676 --> 00:17:30,916 Speaker 1: when you're driving, you just like, don't talk over that 307 00:17:30,956 --> 00:17:34,756 Speaker 1: because you've got some lesson to impart. I love that kids' 308 00:17:34,796 --> 00:17:38,636 Speaker 1: timelines are different than grown ups. I mean, just imagine, 309 00:17:38,676 --> 00:17:41,556 Speaker 1: I'm like somebody who might I've built my professional life 310 00:17:41,756 --> 00:17:45,516 Speaker 1: around getting in there with people, and I'm gonna do 311 00:17:45,596 --> 00:17:49,156 Speaker 1: it with my kids. And like, you know what, Dinna, 312 00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:52,196 Speaker 1: you just got you gotta pace yourself. 313 00:17:56,276 --> 00:17:58,356 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 314 00:17:58,356 --> 00:18:24,516 Speaker 2: of plans. What's your advice when you feel like a 315 00:18:24,516 --> 00:18:27,556 Speaker 2: difficult conversation needs to happen, but the other person does 316 00:18:27,596 --> 00:18:30,796 Speaker 2: not want to engage. So let's say there's a conflic 317 00:18:30,876 --> 00:18:34,036 Speaker 2: at work or with your partner and they're just not 318 00:18:34,116 --> 00:18:36,156 Speaker 2: having it. What do you do in a situation like that? 319 00:18:37,436 --> 00:18:40,676 Speaker 1: You can't force somebody to engage in a way that 320 00:18:40,716 --> 00:18:45,356 Speaker 1: you want them to engage, And so then it's the 321 00:18:45,436 --> 00:18:49,556 Speaker 1: questions are if this person can't be with me in 322 00:18:49,596 --> 00:18:52,436 Speaker 1: this way that I want them to be and expect 323 00:18:52,436 --> 00:18:55,276 Speaker 1: them to be, and they're letting me down, can I 324 00:18:55,276 --> 00:18:59,036 Speaker 1: still have a relationship with them? Or do I want 325 00:18:59,076 --> 00:19:02,756 Speaker 1: to be around them? You know, and certainly an employer 326 00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:06,636 Speaker 1: employee relationship is lower stakes to move on from than 327 00:19:07,556 --> 00:19:10,196 Speaker 1: somebody in your family of origin, Like can you figure 328 00:19:10,196 --> 00:19:12,676 Speaker 1: out another way to be in relationship with them but 329 00:19:12,796 --> 00:19:16,356 Speaker 1: have things that you can't expect from each other? 330 00:19:16,516 --> 00:19:16,756 Speaker 3: You know? 331 00:19:17,636 --> 00:19:20,476 Speaker 1: If I feel like I need something from someone and 332 00:19:20,516 --> 00:19:23,276 Speaker 1: they are not giving it to me, what do I do? 333 00:19:24,316 --> 00:19:27,516 Speaker 1: That's a question about who you are, and you have 334 00:19:27,556 --> 00:19:30,516 Speaker 1: to sit with all those different possibilities that that could raise. 335 00:19:32,076 --> 00:19:35,396 Speaker 1: You know, I was married before, and in my first marriage, 336 00:19:35,996 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 1: any relationship has conflicts right and your earlier is like 337 00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:43,316 Speaker 1: part of getting to know each other. You discover the 338 00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:45,596 Speaker 1: ways that you're different, You discover the places where we 339 00:19:45,756 --> 00:19:46,916 Speaker 1: kind of misalign and have. 340 00:19:46,836 --> 00:19:47,476 Speaker 3: To work at it. 341 00:19:48,356 --> 00:19:52,396 Speaker 1: And then when a relationship you know that balance of 342 00:19:52,436 --> 00:19:56,996 Speaker 1: like we've lost so much of the connective tissue that 343 00:19:57,036 --> 00:20:00,716 Speaker 1: holds this together and I'm not giving you what you 344 00:20:00,796 --> 00:20:02,556 Speaker 1: need and You're not giving me what I need because 345 00:20:02,596 --> 00:20:05,836 Speaker 1: we want different things. You sort of knowed it. You 346 00:20:05,876 --> 00:20:09,076 Speaker 1: feel it's heaviness. You think about can I carry this around? 347 00:20:09,436 --> 00:20:12,116 Speaker 1: Is this going to change? Is this temporary or is 348 00:20:12,156 --> 00:20:16,236 Speaker 1: this forever? What does it mean about me that I 349 00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:19,596 Speaker 1: don't know how to have this relationship continue? If we 350 00:20:19,636 --> 00:20:23,276 Speaker 1: can't figure out this core hard conversation, Who am I? 351 00:20:23,276 --> 00:20:25,996 Speaker 1: If I'm somebody who doesn't want to stay in a marriage. 352 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:30,516 Speaker 1: It's just like this kind of swamp you have to 353 00:20:30,596 --> 00:20:34,156 Speaker 1: trudge through to think, like what of this can I 354 00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:38,476 Speaker 1: tolerate and figure out how to live with? And how 355 00:20:38,556 --> 00:20:40,876 Speaker 1: much of this is so heavy and boggy that like, 356 00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:42,876 Speaker 1: I'm getting stuck in this mud. 357 00:20:43,436 --> 00:20:45,796 Speaker 2: If the person is willing to engage, but you feel 358 00:20:45,796 --> 00:20:47,956 Speaker 2: like there's a moment in the conversation where they're starting 359 00:20:47,956 --> 00:20:50,796 Speaker 2: to close off. Do you have any advice for how 360 00:20:50,836 --> 00:20:54,196 Speaker 2: to help the walls go back down? Or do you 361 00:20:54,316 --> 00:20:56,956 Speaker 2: just kind of pivot? Do you take a break? 362 00:20:57,516 --> 00:21:00,356 Speaker 1: I would try saying like, I noticed that you seems 363 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:02,516 Speaker 1: like you're getting tired of this conversation. I notice that 364 00:21:02,516 --> 00:21:04,636 Speaker 1: you're sort of losing energy here. Do you want to 365 00:21:04,676 --> 00:21:07,836 Speaker 1: talk about this in another time? You know? Are you frustrated? 366 00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:11,196 Speaker 1: Are you angry? Like just kind of doing that thing 367 00:21:11,196 --> 00:21:15,436 Speaker 1: where you notice you make something that's unspoken or maybe 368 00:21:15,556 --> 00:21:18,916 Speaker 1: meta about the interaction and you make it explicit and 369 00:21:18,956 --> 00:21:20,916 Speaker 1: then see if it opens up and they might tell you, like, 370 00:21:21,996 --> 00:21:24,876 Speaker 1: you know, when you said that one word four sentences ago, 371 00:21:24,996 --> 00:21:27,276 Speaker 1: it really pissed me off, you know, and. 372 00:21:27,516 --> 00:21:28,916 Speaker 3: You might not have been aware of it. 373 00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:33,116 Speaker 1: Or it might be that you've talked for fifty minutes 374 00:21:33,156 --> 00:21:35,836 Speaker 1: and it's you know, eleven forty five pm, and it's 375 00:21:35,836 --> 00:21:39,156 Speaker 1: not the time to like come to a resolution. To 376 00:21:39,236 --> 00:21:43,036 Speaker 1: be continued can be okay, It can be really scary 377 00:21:43,076 --> 00:21:47,156 Speaker 1: for people who think of themselves as like I resolve 378 00:21:47,236 --> 00:21:50,556 Speaker 1: conflict to like sit with something that's unresolved. 379 00:21:50,716 --> 00:21:54,636 Speaker 2: My worst night, Marianna, I can't even sleep well. 380 00:21:54,676 --> 00:21:56,756 Speaker 1: I think that that's so interesting because I feel that 381 00:21:56,796 --> 00:22:00,396 Speaker 1: way too. And it's like something that my husband sometimes 382 00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:02,196 Speaker 1: says when we're like in the middle of some kind 383 00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:05,276 Speaker 1: of hard discussion. He'll be like, we're going to be okay, 384 00:22:06,396 --> 00:22:08,116 Speaker 1: but this really pisses me off when you do this. 385 00:22:08,356 --> 00:22:10,916 Speaker 1: It's just like so little, but just like it just says, 386 00:22:11,076 --> 00:22:14,476 Speaker 1: I'm not rejecting the whole idea of you as a 387 00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:15,196 Speaker 1: human person. 388 00:22:15,236 --> 00:22:16,676 Speaker 3: Anna, you are not bad. 389 00:22:16,956 --> 00:22:19,436 Speaker 2: Right now, and this relationship is not over. 390 00:22:19,716 --> 00:22:22,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it gets to like our own feelings of 391 00:22:22,756 --> 00:22:25,996 Speaker 1: where we feel insecure and worthy, et cetera. So I 392 00:22:26,036 --> 00:22:30,316 Speaker 1: don't know, I think practicing sitting with unresolved conversations is 393 00:22:30,476 --> 00:22:31,676 Speaker 1: really powerful. 394 00:22:32,436 --> 00:22:36,436 Speaker 2: I just felt that in my soul father way, and 395 00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:37,956 Speaker 2: I'm sorry to interrupt. I felt you were going to 396 00:22:37,996 --> 00:22:40,076 Speaker 2: say something else. I think that's so small it We'll 397 00:22:40,116 --> 00:22:41,756 Speaker 2: let it resonate in your soul a little bit. 398 00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:42,276 Speaker 1: Ding. 399 00:22:43,516 --> 00:22:47,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is what I personally need to practice. You 400 00:22:47,956 --> 00:22:52,516 Speaker 2: need to practice sitting in the discomfort of an unresolved conversation. 401 00:22:53,676 --> 00:22:56,876 Speaker 2: And I'm sure a lot of people who are listening 402 00:22:56,956 --> 00:23:00,636 Speaker 2: to this will resonate with that. We want closure. We're 403 00:23:00,676 --> 00:23:04,156 Speaker 2: desperate for closure and clarity and definitive answers, And so 404 00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:06,716 Speaker 2: when we don't get that on our timeline, when we 405 00:23:06,716 --> 00:23:09,116 Speaker 2: impose our timeline and someone else who is a very 406 00:23:09,156 --> 00:23:12,076 Speaker 2: different timeline and a very different level of patience and 407 00:23:12,156 --> 00:23:16,476 Speaker 2: tolerance for uncertainty or unresolved things, that's when we drive 408 00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:17,236 Speaker 2: ourselves crazy. 409 00:23:18,036 --> 00:23:21,756 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's a little bit like that gear that 410 00:23:21,836 --> 00:23:23,996 Speaker 1: I will go into at a dinner party. It's the 411 00:23:24,036 --> 00:23:26,996 Speaker 1: way I like to relate to somebody who's like driving 412 00:23:27,076 --> 00:23:30,076 Speaker 1: right to them. The other thing about that interaction is 413 00:23:30,156 --> 00:23:33,236 Speaker 1: I never feel out of control. I am like engaging 414 00:23:33,236 --> 00:23:35,476 Speaker 1: with somebody in the way that I want to engage 415 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:36,876 Speaker 1: with them, and if they're giving it back to me, 416 00:23:36,916 --> 00:23:37,836 Speaker 1: we're like digging in. 417 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:39,596 Speaker 3: I don't feel out of control. 418 00:23:39,716 --> 00:23:42,276 Speaker 1: I feel out of control when somebody is like I 419 00:23:42,316 --> 00:23:43,916 Speaker 1: don't want to engage with you in the way that 420 00:23:43,956 --> 00:23:45,756 Speaker 1: you're coming at me, it's. 421 00:23:45,676 --> 00:23:50,076 Speaker 2: Like what, yes, okay, wait, tell me more about that. So, 422 00:23:50,196 --> 00:23:53,356 Speaker 2: like when you're doing the Anna version and they're not 423 00:23:53,436 --> 00:23:54,876 Speaker 2: having it, you can kind of feel like things are 424 00:23:54,876 --> 00:23:57,596 Speaker 2: going off the rails a little bit. Are there questions 425 00:23:57,716 --> 00:24:01,156 Speaker 2: or phrases or mechanisms you have to help pull yourself 426 00:24:01,156 --> 00:24:04,556 Speaker 2: back for a second and kind of recalibrate, like re engage. 427 00:24:04,836 --> 00:24:08,436 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's just, uh, I think it's 428 00:24:08,476 --> 00:24:11,596 Speaker 1: off putting me or it's surprising to me because it's 429 00:24:11,796 --> 00:24:15,396 Speaker 1: a it's an affront to my version of charm. 430 00:24:15,796 --> 00:24:15,996 Speaker 3: You know. 431 00:24:16,076 --> 00:24:20,116 Speaker 1: I'm like, this is how I work, and you're not 432 00:24:20,276 --> 00:24:22,836 Speaker 1: meeting me, and it makes me feel It'll make me 433 00:24:22,876 --> 00:24:25,036 Speaker 1: feel self conscious. It'll make me be like, oh God, 434 00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:27,236 Speaker 1: don't they see that I'm coming with good intentions and 435 00:24:27,316 --> 00:24:30,676 Speaker 1: I'm good, and I'm worthy, and I'm righteous and whatever, 436 00:24:30,836 --> 00:24:33,316 Speaker 1: Like I'm curious, I'm all the things that I was 437 00:24:33,356 --> 00:24:34,996 Speaker 1: taught to be in Unitarian. 438 00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:35,876 Speaker 3: Church, you know what I mean. 439 00:24:38,076 --> 00:24:42,316 Speaker 1: But the fact is, like I'm not in control. I 440 00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:45,116 Speaker 1: think of it in three D. It's three dimensional space. 441 00:24:45,156 --> 00:24:48,116 Speaker 1: It's not me being able to come at somebody and 442 00:24:48,156 --> 00:24:50,276 Speaker 1: have the kind of transaction I most want to have 443 00:24:50,396 --> 00:24:54,036 Speaker 1: to feel the most emotionally sort of secure and fed. 444 00:24:54,556 --> 00:24:55,916 Speaker 1: But like, if I can figure out how to be 445 00:24:56,916 --> 00:25:01,076 Speaker 1: next to them without needing them to like do the 446 00:25:01,116 --> 00:25:02,436 Speaker 1: thing in the way that I know how to do 447 00:25:02,476 --> 00:25:07,236 Speaker 1: it best, and I can be patient and humble, it 448 00:25:07,356 --> 00:25:11,036 Speaker 1: is a surrender of control. I guess, like Anna, you 449 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:14,596 Speaker 1: have no idea what somebody is going through in a 450 00:25:14,596 --> 00:25:16,836 Speaker 1: certain day, even somebody you know really well, if it's 451 00:25:16,836 --> 00:25:19,836 Speaker 1: not clicking, you're going to think, oh, it's me, and 452 00:25:20,036 --> 00:25:22,236 Speaker 1: I want to figure out how to get back into click, 453 00:25:22,236 --> 00:25:23,356 Speaker 1: and I'm going to like force it. 454 00:25:23,916 --> 00:25:27,036 Speaker 3: But sometimes it's just like not your day. 455 00:25:27,116 --> 00:25:28,516 Speaker 2: You know, a lot of us, when we think about 456 00:25:28,556 --> 00:25:31,796 Speaker 2: approaching hard conversations, we focus so much on saying the 457 00:25:31,876 --> 00:25:34,796 Speaker 2: right thing. So in my head, I'm rehearsing throughout the 458 00:25:34,876 --> 00:25:37,556 Speaker 2: day exactly having to phrase this line and that line, 459 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:40,476 Speaker 2: and what's my delivery going to be like, and anticipating 460 00:25:40,476 --> 00:25:42,956 Speaker 2: what they're going to say in response, and we forget 461 00:25:42,996 --> 00:25:46,156 Speaker 2: actually that one of the greatest tools at our disposal 462 00:25:47,036 --> 00:25:51,876 Speaker 2: is silence. It's just letting moments sit. You're the Queen 463 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:55,316 Speaker 2: of observing silences, So tell me a bit more about that. 464 00:25:56,196 --> 00:25:59,476 Speaker 1: It's a little bit like when you're talking with someone 465 00:25:59,676 --> 00:26:02,716 Speaker 1: and something has just happened, like you feel it happened 466 00:26:02,756 --> 00:26:06,076 Speaker 1: in a conversation, whether it's a sentence that sums up 467 00:26:06,116 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 1: something really big that you were sort of talking towards and. 468 00:26:09,876 --> 00:26:10,596 Speaker 3: Then like oof. 469 00:26:12,916 --> 00:26:15,756 Speaker 1: It's almost like when you don't rush in to just 470 00:26:17,156 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 1: tell them you understood, or you have another question or 471 00:26:19,196 --> 00:26:22,756 Speaker 1: like make them feel better when you just sit and 472 00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:25,916 Speaker 1: just let it. You know, it's kind of like throwing 473 00:26:25,956 --> 00:26:28,116 Speaker 1: a brock into a pond, like you just let it 474 00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:31,716 Speaker 1: have its moment. It's sort of a sign of reverence 475 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:33,556 Speaker 1: or what has just been expressed. 476 00:26:34,276 --> 00:26:35,716 Speaker 3: It also can be. 477 00:26:39,196 --> 00:26:41,876 Speaker 1: Just like a you know, you're a musician, it's sort 478 00:26:41,916 --> 00:26:49,556 Speaker 1: of like arrest or almost like if it's a really 479 00:26:49,556 --> 00:26:52,396 Speaker 1: big thing, you're like, maybe we need to move to 480 00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:56,676 Speaker 1: the next movement. I'm gonna I want to just like 481 00:26:56,796 --> 00:27:01,916 Speaker 1: respect that something. This was something, So what I'll do. 482 00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:04,316 Speaker 1: I noticed my this isn't conscious, but I've noticed myself 483 00:27:04,356 --> 00:27:06,676 Speaker 1: over the years, like just sitting and I'll take a 484 00:27:06,716 --> 00:27:10,076 Speaker 1: deep breath in an interview set, and then unnoticed, the 485 00:27:10,116 --> 00:27:12,916 Speaker 1: person I'm interviewing will take a deep breath because they've 486 00:27:12,916 --> 00:27:14,996 Speaker 1: been sort of moving towards this saying, and then something 487 00:27:15,036 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 1: happens and then it's like, oh yeah, yeah. It's letting 488 00:27:20,636 --> 00:27:27,556 Speaker 1: something be big without having to be fixed or smoothed 489 00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:30,636 Speaker 1: over stand it over. I think often when people jump 490 00:27:30,676 --> 00:27:35,876 Speaker 1: in to fill gaps in silence, it's to indicate that 491 00:27:35,996 --> 00:27:38,476 Speaker 1: having an uncomfortable feeling is okay, and maybe there's this 492 00:27:38,556 --> 00:27:39,356 Speaker 1: other thing you know. 493 00:27:39,356 --> 00:27:40,756 Speaker 3: Like have you talked with arapist? 494 00:27:40,876 --> 00:27:43,116 Speaker 1: You know, like we want to say something that's going 495 00:27:43,156 --> 00:27:49,436 Speaker 1: to make it feel tolerable. And sometimes just big things 496 00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:52,356 Speaker 1: just need a little bit of air before you can 497 00:27:52,356 --> 00:27:55,076 Speaker 1: start thinking about what to do about them. 498 00:27:55,316 --> 00:27:58,116 Speaker 2: For someone who's listening, who's mustered up the courage to 499 00:27:58,276 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 2: have that big, hard conversation, is there one final thought 500 00:28:02,636 --> 00:28:04,996 Speaker 2: you would leave them with, or some form of encouragement 501 00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 2: or some wisdom from all of your years doing this 502 00:28:07,676 --> 00:28:09,396 Speaker 2: in your personal and professional life. 503 00:28:10,036 --> 00:28:12,676 Speaker 1: I think if you're on the doorstep of a conversation 504 00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:17,116 Speaker 1: that makes you feel intimidated and nervous, just practice. It 505 00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:23,316 Speaker 1: might seem so dorky, but practicing really helps with someone 506 00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:26,076 Speaker 1: who knows you, with someone who can sit with you 507 00:28:26,196 --> 00:28:29,116 Speaker 1: and say, like, what's the most important objective you have 508 00:28:29,236 --> 00:28:33,316 Speaker 1: for this conversation? Is it to tell them this thing? 509 00:28:34,036 --> 00:28:36,516 Speaker 1: Is it to feel reconnected in this other way? Like, 510 00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:39,916 Speaker 1: we have a lot of different mixed objectives when we 511 00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:44,556 Speaker 1: have relational conversations, and there's sometimes at cross purposes, and 512 00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:49,636 Speaker 1: it can be so clarifying to just have an ally 513 00:28:49,876 --> 00:28:57,036 Speaker 1: who helps you figure out just that forest of feelings 514 00:28:57,196 --> 00:29:01,756 Speaker 1: so that you can feel confident that what you are 515 00:29:01,796 --> 00:29:05,916 Speaker 1: trying to express or bringing to the conversation is something 516 00:29:05,916 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 1: you've thought through and then you have that person to 517 00:29:08,636 --> 00:29:11,836 Speaker 1: come back or whether the conversation goes well or goes terribly, 518 00:29:12,276 --> 00:29:14,636 Speaker 1: Because these siks are not one and done like these 519 00:29:14,876 --> 00:29:16,996 Speaker 1: hard conversations. I think we talk about them as if 520 00:29:17,036 --> 00:29:21,356 Speaker 1: there's these discreet things. What hard conversations are in service 521 00:29:21,396 --> 00:29:26,516 Speaker 1: of is a relationship, and that is ongoing. And so 522 00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:30,116 Speaker 1: it's about that particular relationship where you haven't want to 523 00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:35,196 Speaker 1: talk about that thing, and then surrounding yourself with one 524 00:29:35,596 --> 00:29:37,676 Speaker 1: or as many relationships as you need to feel like 525 00:29:37,676 --> 00:29:56,476 Speaker 1: you've got back up to go into that scary thing. 526 00:30:01,676 --> 00:30:04,916 Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, 527 00:30:05,036 --> 00:30:07,836 Speaker 2: please follow a slight change of plans wherever you listen 528 00:30:07,876 --> 00:30:11,196 Speaker 2: to podcasts and join me next time when we explore 529 00:30:11,316 --> 00:30:13,876 Speaker 2: what happens when the dream you've spent your whole life 530 00:30:13,956 --> 00:30:16,436 Speaker 2: chasing begins to hurt your well being. 531 00:30:16,916 --> 00:30:20,596 Speaker 4: I almost saw myself as this piece of glass and 532 00:30:21,316 --> 00:30:24,316 Speaker 4: it got a crack, and you get up and you 533 00:30:24,396 --> 00:30:26,996 Speaker 4: try to put a little band aid on it. You 534 00:30:26,996 --> 00:30:30,036 Speaker 4: know that doesn't work, and then another crack, and another 535 00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:31,876 Speaker 4: and another, and then you kind of just wonder, at 536 00:30:31,916 --> 00:30:34,156 Speaker 4: what point is it just gonna shatter? 537 00:30:34,996 --> 00:30:38,636 Speaker 2: That's next time on A Slight Change of Plans. A 538 00:30:38,676 --> 00:30:42,156 Speaker 2: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced 539 00:30:42,156 --> 00:30:45,556 Speaker 2: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Changed family includes our 540 00:30:45,596 --> 00:30:50,236 Speaker 2: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our 541 00:30:50,276 --> 00:30:54,356 Speaker 2: producers Britney Cronin and Megan Luvin, and our sound engineer 542 00:30:54,516 --> 00:30:58,436 Speaker 2: Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and 543 00:30:58,516 --> 00:31:01,676 Speaker 2: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 544 00:31:01,716 --> 00:31:05,116 Speaker 2: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 545 00:31:05,156 --> 00:31:08,596 Speaker 2: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks 546 00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:11,596 Speaker 2: to Jimmy. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans 547 00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:14,916 Speaker 2: on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.