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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: Mister Secretary, thank you very much for being here. Good

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Speaker 2: agree with you many ways we could go here, but

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Speaker 2: let's start with Syria. And you've described this moment as

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Speaker 2: one of both promise and peril.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: You have what seems like a de facto government that

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Speaker 2: is a designated terrorist group, and you've said that the

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Speaker 2: US has been in contact with HTS. What specifically have

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Speaker 2: they said, I know there are other groups operating in

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Speaker 2: the country as well. What have they said about how

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Speaker 2: they might govern? If this is how it all shakes out.

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Speaker 3: What we've heard them say is is positive. The question

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Speaker 3: is what are they actually going to do. We brought

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Speaker 3: together with Jordan countries from around the region last week.

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Speaker 3: We had Turkey, we had Iraq, we had the Gulf States, Jordan, Egypt,

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Speaker 3: European partners, and we came together to set expectations. What

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Speaker 3: is the international community, what are the neighbors looking for

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Speaker 3: as this transition takes place in Syria? And we all

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Speaker 3: agreed we want to see something that's inclusive, that's non sectarian,

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Speaker 3: respects minorities, women, that deals with any chemical weapons that

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Speaker 3: may be remaining in Syria that doesn't aly with ISIS

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Speaker 3: or any of the terrorist groups through or there. And

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Speaker 3: the reason that's so important is we want to make

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Speaker 3: it clear to HTS and all of the emerging authorities

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Speaker 3: that the recognition that they seek, the support that they

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Speaker 3: seek and need from the international community, well, there's certain

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Speaker 3: expectations that come along with that. And as I said,

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Speaker 3: we've heard positive statements coming from mister Jilani, the leader

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Speaker 3: of HTS, but what everyone is focused on is what's

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Speaker 3: actually happening on the ground.

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Speaker 1: What are they doing.

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Speaker 3: Are they working to build a transition in Syria that

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Speaker 3: brings everyone in. If they do that, and if they

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Speaker 3: meet some of these other tests that the international community

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Speaker 3: is looking for them to meet, then I think you

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Speaker 3: can see something very positive.

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Speaker 1: And here's what it is.

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Speaker 3: For the first time in decades, the people of Syria

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Speaker 3: can go forward without a dictator, without a terrorist group

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Speaker 3: dominating their lives, without one sect or one group running

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Speaker 3: things at the exclusion of others, and without foreign power

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Speaker 3: calling all the shots. That's the opportunity, but it really

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Speaker 3: requires HTS and other groups that are there to move

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Speaker 3: forward in this inclusive way.

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Speaker 1: You've said that the US wants to help.

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Speaker 2: And I look at this country that has a lot

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Speaker 2: of sanctions that are residual, A lot of sanctions have

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Speaker 2: been in place for decades on Syria. Senator christ Murphy

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Speaker 2: of Connecticut has called for a temporary suspension of sanctions.

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Speaker 2: Is that something that you would be amenable to and

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Speaker 2: would that be effective and helping you have more engagement

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Speaker 2: with what may be this new government.

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Speaker 1: So we're looking at all the authorities we have.

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Speaker 3: We're looking at all of the sanctions, not only our own.

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Speaker 3: The United Nations has sanctions on HTS, it's leader. And

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Speaker 3: I think what we need to see is actual concrete

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Speaker 3: steps building an inclusive, non sectarian government, a transition eventually

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Speaker 3: getting to an election. As we see these steps taken,

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Speaker 3: then I think we'll be able to respond, others will

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Speaker 3: be able to respond.

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Speaker 1: That's what we'd like to do.

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Speaker 3: But we need to see concrete action, not simply positive declarations.

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Speaker 2: The EUS chief Di matt has said she's sending a

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Speaker 2: senior representative to Damascus to talk to this.

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Speaker 1: New group, talk to this government.

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Speaker 2: Is that something that you would want to do that

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Speaker 2: you can do? Indeed, given the terrorist designation, the sanctions there.

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Speaker 3: We've actually been in direct contact with HTS on the ground.

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Speaker 3: I can just tell you we've been in direct contact,

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Speaker 3: and we're also looking at getting people on the ground

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Speaker 3: in Syria. I think it's important to have direct communication.

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Speaker 3: It's important to speak as clearly as possible, to listen,

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Speaker 3: to make sure that we understand as best we can

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Speaker 3: where they're going and where they want to go. So

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Speaker 3: we'll be looking at pursuing that in the coming days.

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Speaker 2: Pull back and ask another question about the region, and

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Speaker 2: there's been a lot of speculation that a ceasefire deal

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Speaker 2: could come together. When President Biden spoke about the deal

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Speaker 2: between Israel and Hesblat, he was asked at the end,

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Speaker 2: do you think you can get a ceasefire deal by

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Speaker 2: the end of your tenure?

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Speaker 1: So he's hoping and praying.

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Speaker 2: Is there anything that's happened that gives more grounds for

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Speaker 2: hope and prayer going forward?

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Speaker 3: Here there is, and the reality is we should logically

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Speaker 3: be able to get this. And I say that with

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Speaker 3: all the caution that comes with that statement, because you know,

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Speaker 3: we've been very close before, and we've had these Lucy

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Speaker 3: in the football moments where you're just ready to.

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Speaker 1: Kick the football and Lucy pulls it away.

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Speaker 3: But what's changed is this, Hamas knows that the cavalry

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Speaker 3: is not coming to the rescue.

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Speaker 1: For months and months and months, it.

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Speaker 3: Hoped it would get a wider war with Hezbollah, with Iran,

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Speaker 3: with Iranian aligned groups coming in and creating more problems

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Speaker 3: from Israel on more fronts and helping Hamas endure. We

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Speaker 3: now know that's not happening. They know it's not happening

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Speaker 3: because of the very important work that was done with

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Speaker 3: us and with others dealing with the unprecedented Iranian attacks.

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Speaker 1: On Israel, dealing with hes Bulah.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's concentrated minds among Hamas on the

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Speaker 3: need to complete the steal. Having said that, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's always incredibly fraud and it's very hard to get

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Speaker 3: decisions made, it's hard to communicate, and for all of

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Speaker 3: those reasons, even as as close as it is, you know,

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Speaker 3: it can still move in the other direction. But we

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Speaker 3: have we've all been we've all been fanning out, working

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Speaker 3: with all of the different partners who can make a

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Speaker 3: difference and who may have some leverage with communications with Hamas.

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Speaker 3: Whether it's Cutter, whether it's Egypt, whether it's Turkey, where.

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Speaker 1: I was just last week.

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Speaker 3: The fundamental question right now is is Hamas finally prepared.

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Speaker 1: To say yes, And if it does.

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Speaker 3: We get the hostages back, we get a ceasefire, we

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Speaker 3: get an immediate dramatic improvement in the lives of Palestinian children,

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Speaker 3: women and men who've been caught in this horrible crossfire

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Speaker 3: since October seventh of Hamas is making if they really

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Speaker 3: purport to care about the Palestinian people, they will say

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Speaker 3: yes and do it.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you about that horrible crossfire, and it's

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Speaker 2: something that you've written about in a recent essay for

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Speaker 2: Foreign Affair, is the fact that millions have been displaced,

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Speaker 2: tens of thousands have been killed, Gaza has been kind

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Speaker 2: of reduced to rubble.

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Speaker 1: You've made twelve trips to the region.

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Speaker 2: How much regret do you have that kind of sustained

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Speaker 2: level of humanitarian aid hasn't made it into Gaza over

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Speaker 2: the course of this conflict.

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Speaker 3: You know, from day one, we've tried to do several

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Speaker 3: things going back to October seventh, First to stand resolute

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Speaker 3: with Israel, to try to make sure that October seventh

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Speaker 3: would never happen again. Second, to prevent this war from

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Speaker 3: going wider, because if that happened, if other fronts opened up,

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Speaker 3: whether it was with Iran, whether it was with Hezbollah,

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Speaker 3: these other groups, more death, more destruction, and it would

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Speaker 3: probably prolong what was going on in Gaza. And three

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Speaker 3: to do whatever we could to make sure that people

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Speaker 3: in Gaza were getting the assistance they need, We're getting

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Speaker 3: the protections they need, and we have been on this

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Speaker 3: virtually every single day, and we've seen moments when more

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Speaker 3: assistance was getting through. Then we've seen moments where where

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Speaker 3: it's ebbed and flowed. But this has a dramatic effect

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Speaker 3: on the lives and livelihoods of people in Gaza. The

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Speaker 3: last week or ten days there has been a noticeable improvement,

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Speaker 3: but we've seen that before and then we've seen it

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Speaker 3: fall off. The best way to finally deal with the

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Speaker 3: needs of the people would be down in the conflict,

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Speaker 3: would be to get the ceasefire, to get the hostages home.

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Speaker 3: That's the best play because you have an environment that

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Speaker 3: is unique. You have a population that's trapped in Gase.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't have anywhere to go.

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Speaker 3: In most other conflicts, people they can become refugees. That's

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Speaker 3: not a good thing, but it's better than being caught

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Speaker 3: in the middle of a hot war. And also you

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Speaker 3: have an enemy in the case of a mass that's

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Speaker 3: fully enmeshed with the civilian population living in and under buildings,

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Speaker 3: apartment buildings, schools, mosques, hospitals. That doesn't obviate at all

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Speaker 3: the responsibility that Israel has to try to ensure that

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Speaker 3: assistance gets to people who need it and that people

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Speaker 3: are protected as best possible, and we've been pushing on

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Speaker 3: that every single day. We've also seen what's possible if

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Speaker 3: there's real sustained focus on this. There was a polio

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Speaker 3: vaccination campaign to make sure that children in Gaza got

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Speaker 3: these vaccines was very successful until there's an end of

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Speaker 3: the conflict. What we've been trying to impress upon the

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Speaker 3: Israelis is the need to make bring that same focus

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Speaker 3: in a sustained way on getting assistants to people who

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Speaker 3: need it.

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Speaker 2: Ask your last question just about the transition that's underway,

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Speaker 2: and you've said of this new administration, you want to

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Speaker 2: pass the baton to them so they can can get

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Speaker 2: off and running.

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Speaker 1: Forgive me, but it does seem like they are off

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Speaker 1: and running.

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Speaker 2: You had President Electrump meeting in France with President Selensky,

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Speaker 2: President Matcron, He's met with Prime Minister Trudeau in Florida.

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Speaker 2: His destiny to be the Special Onboard the Middle East

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Speaker 2: has been in the region as well. Does that complicate

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Speaker 2: the work that you are doing, having that sort of

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Speaker 2: separate voice, separate foreign policy for lack of a better word,

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Speaker 2: in the region while you're trying to do your work.

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Speaker 3: Look, there's one president at time, one administration at a time,

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Speaker 3: but we're in very close contact with the incoming administration.

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Speaker 2: I spent a couple of hours field novel though, and

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Speaker 2: mean we used to talk about the Logan Act.

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Speaker 1: It does feel like these are different circumstances. Look, I

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Speaker 1: think there are few things. I think there are a

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Speaker 1: few things going on.

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Speaker 3: First, As I said, we've been in very close contact

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Speaker 3: with the incoming administration, and I've spent a lot of

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Speaker 3: time with Senaer Rubio and Jake Salton, the National Security Advisor,

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Speaker 3: with Mike Waltz, his successor, We've had very good not

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Speaker 3: only conversations, but we're trying to make sure that we're

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Speaker 3: as coordinated as possible so that they know what we're

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Speaker 3: looking at doing in the remaining time that we have.

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Speaker 3: I want to be able to hand off to the

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Speaker 3: incoming administration the best possible hand to play in all

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Speaker 3: of these areas, in all of these challenges. Because the

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Speaker 3: world doesn't stop just because we're in a political transition.

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Speaker 3: It's also normal that countries around the world want to

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Speaker 3: hear from the incoming administration. They want to know what

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Speaker 3: they can expect and so they can get ready for that.

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Speaker 3: As long as we're communicating closely, which we are, and

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Speaker 3: as long as we're working to again try to make

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Speaker 3: this handoff as effective as possible so that they can

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Speaker 3: get moving on the run, because there's really no time

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Speaker 3: to wait. Then I think that's a good thing, and

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Speaker 3: look on the Middle East, just to stick with that quickly,

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Speaker 3: we've been working very hard to make sure that as

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Speaker 3: best we can we put in we actually start to

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Speaker 3: implement plans for a better future for the region, or

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Speaker 3: if we don't have time to fully do that, to

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Speaker 3: be able to hand them off, not just getting the

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Speaker 3: hostage and cease fire deal, but having a clear plan

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Speaker 3: for what follows, a day after plan for Gaza, so

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Speaker 3: that there's no vacuum that Hamas can refill, that Israel

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Speaker 3: can pull out, and you can have Gaza stand up

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Speaker 3: for its people, Administration, security reconstruction. We have done an

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Speaker 3: extraordinary amount of work carrying through what President Trump started

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Speaker 3: with the Abraham Accords to get a normalization between Israel

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Speaker 3: and Saudi Arabia, which would be the biggest game changer

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Speaker 3: in the region. And those plans are there and are

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Speaker 3: in place and ready to go if we get an

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Speaker 3: end to Gaza.

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Speaker 1: A conflict there.

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Speaker 3: We've done a lot of work on what a pathway

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Speaker 3: to Palicitian state would look like. When people are ready

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Speaker 3: for that conversation, They're not now. At some point they're

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Speaker 3: going to have to be. All of that is ready

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Speaker 3: to be handed over to the new administration, and hopefully

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Speaker 3: they'll carry.

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Speaker 1: The ball forward very quickly.

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Speaker 2: Before I let you go, you mentioned that normalization deal

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Speaker 2: with Something's administration invested a lot in Beforetober seventh, clear

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Speaker 2: that the conversations have been going on.

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Speaker 1: There has been reporting that.

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Speaker 2: We're close to a breakthrough there is there can you

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Speaker 2: shed any lightnser of where those conversations stand today.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things I look back on is

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Speaker 3: on October tenth, a year ago, I was supposed to

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Speaker 3: go to Saudi Arabia and to Israel to work on

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Speaker 3: the Palestinian component of this normalization deal. And of course

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Speaker 3: that trip didn't happen because of October seven, but even

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Speaker 3: with Gaza had we've continued these conversations. We've continued this work,

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Speaker 3: and in terms of the agreements that are needed between

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Speaker 3: the United States and.

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Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, they're pretty much ready.

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Speaker 3: To go, and that would then trigger the normalization between

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Speaker 3: Israel and Saudi Arabia. But two things are required to

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Speaker 3: actually get that done. One is an end to the

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Speaker 3: conflict in Gaza, and two is having a credible pathway

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Speaker 3: toward a Palestinian state. As I said, all of the

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Speaker 3: work's been done, and hopefully we'll get to that end of.

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Speaker 1: Conflict in Gaza.

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Speaker 3: Well, they'll have to engage the conversation on the answering

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Speaker 3: the Palestinian question. The work is there, and if that happens,

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Speaker 3: this transforms the region. You have Israel that's integrated in

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Speaker 3: the region. There's a common security architecture to deal with Iran.

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Speaker 3: We saw that something we put together embryonically. When Iran

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Speaker 3: attacked Israel in an unprecedented way, a direct attack, we

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Speaker 3: not only for the first time, participated in Israel's active defense.

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Speaker 3: We brought other countries, including countries.

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Speaker 1: In the region, into.

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Speaker 3: That defense, so you can see what's possible in the future.

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Speaker 3: But it requires an end to the conflict in Gaza,

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Speaker 3: and it requires moving forward on the.

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Speaker 2: Palestinians, as your secretary, thank you very much. That's how

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Speaker 2: Anthony Blincoln, Secretary of State,