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Speaker 1: a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not

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Speaker 1: thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the

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Speaker 2: And friends and families walking riding on passing the roads

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Speaker 2: every day. Remember they're real people with loved ones who

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Speaker 2: need them to.

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Speaker 1: Get home safely.

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Speaker 2: Protect our cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too, Go safely,

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Speaker 2: California from the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Daniel, as a particle physicist, what's the one thing

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Speaker 3: you would most like to discover?

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Speaker 1: Ooh, if I could pick just one thing to discover.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like go wild. What's your biggest scientific ambition.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a great question, but it's not actually that

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Speaker 1: hard to pick. I would want to discover dark.

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Speaker 3: Matter because it's such a big mystery.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the biggest open questions in modern science,

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Speaker 1: and I personally really want to know the answer.

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Speaker 3: All right, But here's a catch. What if you discovered

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Speaker 3: what it is but nobody believes you. Are you still interested?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Man, like a modern day physics Cassandra. That sounds

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Speaker 1: a little bit like torture. But you know, as long

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Speaker 1: as I know the answer to the questions about the universe,

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Speaker 1: I would still want to find out.

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Speaker 3: So it's all about you.

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Speaker 1: Science is personal.

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Speaker 3: I am Orham, a cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel, I'm a particle physicist, and I'm desperately

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Speaker 1: seeking dark matter. How desperate are you, Daniel, Not desperate

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Speaker 1: enough to make up my data, but desperate enough to

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Speaker 1: consider almost.

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Speaker 3: Anything, desperate enough to move to Italy maybe to do

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Speaker 3: your research.

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Speaker 1: I do like that black pasta they have over there,

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Speaker 1: so I call that dark matter.

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Speaker 3: Then, yeah, thanks called squitting tasta.

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Speaker 1: Well they've discovered something delicious at the very least.

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Speaker 3: But welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 3: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we take a bite out of the tastiest

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Speaker 1: intellectual questions of the universe. We true, we swallow, We

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Speaker 1: explain all of it to you.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, we serve it up on a dish and hope

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Speaker 3: that you slurp it all up so you can think

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Speaker 3: about the universe and everything in it.

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Speaker 1: Because everything about the universe is wondrous and amazing and

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Speaker 1: it makes us curious. But it doesn't just make scientists curious.

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Speaker 1: We think it makes everybody curious. That curiosity is wonderful

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Speaker 1: and we want to cherish it and satisfy it by

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Speaker 1: explaining to you some of the mysteries of the universe.

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Speaker 3: And there are still a lot of mysteries out there.

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Speaker 3: There are big chunks of the universe we don't know

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Speaker 3: anything about, and there are big questions about the very

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Speaker 3: nature of our cosmos and where we came from, and

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Speaker 3: also what is even in it?

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Speaker 1: That's right. Recently scientists have cracked open the universe and

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Speaker 1: discovered that there's a lot of stuff out there that

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Speaker 1: we don't know, that we don't understand. There are new

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Speaker 1: kinds of stuff out there, and it makes us desperately curious.

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Speaker 1: What is it? Why is it? Why is there so

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Speaker 1: much more of it than our kind of stuff? So

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Speaker 1: many questions, so few answers.

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Speaker 3: And is it delicious? Also, it's a big question, and everybody's.

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Speaker 1: Fine, how much of it should you have on top

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Speaker 1: of your pasta?

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Speaker 3: And can you put cheese on it? Are there rules

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Speaker 3: for what? You can't put parmeers on cheese on?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, you can put parmes on cheese on everything.

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Speaker 3: That's the rule, even seafood pasta. I feel like that's

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Speaker 3: an unstated rule.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole other podcast episode. We can't get into

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Speaker 1: that today. Man, we have to stay on topic.

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Speaker 3: Seafood matter, seafood matters. But anyways, a big bite of

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Speaker 3: the universe that we don't know anything about is a

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Speaker 3: big mystery called dark matter. Twenty seven percent of all

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Speaker 3: of the energy and matter in the universe is something

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Speaker 3: called dark matter, But we don't know what it is.

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Speaker 1: And we would love to understand it. We would love

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Speaker 1: to break it apart and figure out is it made

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Speaker 1: out of some tiny little particle we've never seen before,

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Speaker 1: is it lots of different particles, is it something else

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Speaker 1: which isn't even a particle. So physicists all over the

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Speaker 1: world are using lots of different techniques to try to

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Speaker 1: isolate dark matter and figure out what kind of particle

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Speaker 1: it is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's swimming all around us, right like it's everywhere.

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Speaker 3: In fact, probably when you eat pasta you are taking

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Speaker 3: big bite fulls of dark matter at the same time.

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Speaker 1: That's right, But fortunately your body doesn't digest it, so

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Speaker 1: you don't gain all of that mass. But yes, dark matter,

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Speaker 1: we think is all around us. It's part of the universe,

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Speaker 1: but it's not spread evenly through the universe. It's clumped together,

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Speaker 1: just like our matter. So we think that our galaxy

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Speaker 1: is swimming in a massive halo of dark matter, and

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Speaker 1: that the Earth is flying through a wind of dark matter,

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Speaker 1: and so physicists are using lots of techniques to try

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Speaker 1: to discover this, looking at it colliding with itself in

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Speaker 1: the center of the galaxy. We're trying to make it

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Speaker 1: in underground collisions at the Large Hadron Collider, and also

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Speaker 1: we're trying to detect this dark matter wind.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, everybody seems to be looking for it, but it's

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Speaker 3: really hard because you can't touch it or see it,

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Speaker 3: and so far nobody has really got in a chest

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Speaker 3: to figure out what it is, or have they.

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Speaker 1: It's been an open puzzle for decades now in physics

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Speaker 1: what is dark matter? What is it made out of?

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Speaker 1: And everybody knows that the people who figure that out

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Speaker 1: will go down in history as having answered one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest questions in physics. And so it's definitely a

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Speaker 1: big fat prize out there waiting for somebody to win.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and in fact, there is somebody out there who

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Speaker 3: believes they've seen it and maybe even know what it is,

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Speaker 3: and in fact they've been certain about this for about

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Speaker 3: twenty years.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Of all the folks out there looking for

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Speaker 1: dark matter, there's a group in Italy that are very

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Speaker 1: confident in their signal they've seen something that they think

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Speaker 1: can only be explained by dark matter.

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Speaker 3: Well, Italian's being confident about something, Danne, that feels like

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Speaker 3: a pretty on bread. Yeah. So the big question is

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Speaker 3: why doesn't anybody believe this experiment and the results they found.

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Speaker 3: So today on the podcast will be tackling the question

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Speaker 3: why doesn't anybody believe the Dama experiment. Now, Daniel, this

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Speaker 3: is Dama Dama, not Dharma experiment. Like in the TV

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Speaker 3: series Lost. I feel like maybe there's a conspiracy here.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the two are connected. Maybe Lost was actually about

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Speaker 1: dark matter the whole time.

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Speaker 3: Maybe, yeah, yes, the monster wants me to out of

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Speaker 3: like this dark cloud. It could have been dark matter.

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Speaker 1: It could have been dark matter. They were physicists the

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Speaker 1: whole time, and we finally put it together right here

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Speaker 1: on the podcast and unlocked the mists.

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Speaker 3: Jack never had a chance.

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Speaker 1: That's right now. It's the Dama experiment, and it's had

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Speaker 1: several iterations. It's called Dama, it's called Dama slash Libra,

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Speaker 1: but they're all fundamentally the same experiment in the same location,

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Speaker 1: seeing the same amazing signal that looks like dark matter,

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Speaker 1: but nobody seems to believe it. The consensus in the

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Speaker 1: particle of physics community is that DAMA has not discovered

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Speaker 1: dark matter, and other experiments continue to hunt for dark

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Speaker 1: matter in lots of different ways. So it's a fascinating

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Speaker 1: question when one group sees something but nobody else believes it.

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Speaker 1: What do you do?

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Speaker 3: Wow, what does DAMA stand for?

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Speaker 1: The da comes from dark and the maa comes from matter,

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Speaker 1: So so damash is just short for dark matter. You know,

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Speaker 1: people can't be bothered to say the whole name dark matter,

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Speaker 1: so they just squished it together into DAMA.

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Speaker 3: Okay, they've just appropriated the first two letters for the acronym.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and the follow up experiment will appropriate the

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Speaker 1: other letters.

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Speaker 4: It'll be.

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Speaker 3: All right. So these folks in Italy twenty years ago

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Speaker 3: claim they have found a signal for dark matter, and

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Speaker 3: they've been pretty confident about it, but nobody in the

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Speaker 3: field believes them.

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Speaker 1: And I was wondering whether people outside the field have

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Speaker 1: followed this, if it's trickled through into mainstream media, if

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Speaker 1: people are aware of this incredible, unexplained signal in a

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Speaker 1: dark matter experiment.

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Speaker 3: So, as usual, Daniel went out there into the wilds

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Speaker 3: of the Internet to ask people, why does nobody believe

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Speaker 3: the Dama experiment discovered dark matter.

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Speaker 1: So thank you to those of you who are willing

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Speaker 1: to speculate on a physics question without googling. If you'd

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Speaker 1: like to participate and hear your uninformed speculation on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: please write to us to questions at Danielnjorge dot com.

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Speaker 3: Here's what people had to say. I'm not sure I've

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Speaker 3: never heard of this experiment before.

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Speaker 1: Man, there are so many experiments right now, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure I heard about this one.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Has there been no further evidence of dark matter that's

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Speaker 1: been found.

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Speaker 3: Have they not been able to replicate it? I imagine it's

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Speaker 3: something like that, or maybe they like looked back at

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Speaker 3: the results and were like, no, this could just be interference.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I would assume that the discovery of dark matter would

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Speaker 5: be on par with the photo the first photo of

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Speaker 5: the black hole ever taken, and that was from Page News.

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Speaker 5: And because I haven't heard anything about dark matter being discovered,

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Speaker 5: that maybe they didn't discover it there was noise in

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Speaker 5: the data, or they're still taking their time to calculate

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Speaker 5: the results.

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Speaker 3: If the Deemer experiment did discovery dark matter, you think

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Speaker 3: that we have more information about what it is, all right,

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Speaker 3: not a lot of brand recognition for DOMA.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that means they should have chosen a

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Speaker 1: better name or they just need a better pr team.

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Speaker 1: But because nobody in physics has really accepted their result,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to have trickled out to the wider community.

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Speaker 3: I like this answer that somebody said, there are so

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Speaker 3: many experiments right now. I'm not sure I've heard about

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Speaker 3: this one, Like, do you feel like maybe you saturated

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Speaker 3: the market with acronym experiments?

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Speaker 1: Oh, there are a lot of dark matter experiments, you know,

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Speaker 1: and they have crazy names. There's Xenon, there's Lux, there's LZ,

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Speaker 1: this co sign, this Kojin, there's Zeppelin, this Coup, there's

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Speaker 1: dark Side. These are just like, you know, half of

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Speaker 1: the dark matter experiments out there. It's an enormous race.

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Speaker 1: It's like a land grab. You know, everybody's rushing to

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Speaker 1: figure out what dark matter is, knowing that one of

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Speaker 1: these groups might figure it out and not only win

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Speaker 1: a Noel Prize, but you know, answer a deep question

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Speaker 1: about the universe. So it's very tempting. It's a very

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Speaker 1: hot area of research.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a big part of the universe. It's

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Speaker 3: twenty seven that's right.

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Speaker 1: If you add up all the energy in like a

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Speaker 1: random cube of space, then twenty seven percent of that

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Speaker 1: energy is devoted to making dark matter, whereas only five

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Speaker 1: percent of that energy is the kind of stuff you

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Speaker 1: and I are made out of, and stars and dust

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Speaker 1: and gas, and most of the stuff that we think

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Speaker 1: about in the universe is just a tiny little fraction.

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Speaker 1: So discovering dark matter doesn't just like answer some abstract

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Speaker 1: physics question. It tells us what the universe is, because

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Speaker 1: it's much more than just what we're made out of.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, So these folks have discovered dark matter,

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Speaker 3: or claim to have discovered it, but nobody believes them. Daniel,

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Speaker 3: Is that like a night mercenario for you as a scientist,

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Speaker 3: Like to discover something amazing and then have everybody think

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Speaker 3: that you're crazy.

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Speaker 1: It's one of several nightmares, you know. Other varieties of

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Speaker 1: those nightmares are like you see something amazing, you publish something,

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Speaker 1: it makes a big splash, and then you realize it

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Speaker 1: was wrong. That's the kind of thing that happened to

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Speaker 1: the Opera experiment that claimed that neutrinos were going faster

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Speaker 1: than light. And then it turns out they had miscalibrated

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Speaker 1: because one of their cables wasn't jiggled in the right way.

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Speaker 3: Oh they were Italian, too, weren't they?

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Speaker 1: They were also Italian, Although you know that could just

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Speaker 1: be coincidence. I'm not casting dispersions on the Italian physics community.

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Speaker 1: Lots of wonderful Italian collaborators on the outlets experiment with me.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that's one nightmare. And the other one is

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Speaker 1: that nobody reproduces your result, and so nobody believes your result,

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Speaker 1: and you're left there with data that you believe that

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Speaker 1: you just can't convince your colleagues, because remember, science is

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Speaker 1: a human endeavor. It's by people and for people, and

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Speaker 1: in the end, you have to convince the community that

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Speaker 1: what you've done holds up, that you've uncracked something real

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Speaker 1: about the universe and not just an artifact of how

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Speaker 1: you've done your experiment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like that's a similar nightmare for cartoonis

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Speaker 3: It's like you write the perfect joke and nobody gets it. Like, hmm,

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Speaker 3: would I still be satisfied? I think maybe I would

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Speaker 3: still be satisfied. I'd be like, yes, I wrote the

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Speaker 3: best joke, but everyone else is a fool.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a good question for you as a cartoon.

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Speaker 1: Is there any correlation between how popular our cartoon is

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Speaker 1: and how much you like it?

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Speaker 3: All right? So Doma claims they saw dark matter and

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Speaker 3: measured it. So Daniel step us through what exactly did

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Speaker 3: they see?

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Speaker 1: So what they're doing is they're looking for tiny little

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Speaker 1: particles of dark matter. Now we don't know that dark

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Speaker 1: matter is a particle, but it's just sort of the

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Speaker 1: best idea we have is that matter is made of particles,

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Speaker 1: and so we figure maybe dark matter is also made

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Speaker 1: out of dark matter particles, some new kind of particle

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Speaker 1: we haven't seen before. Now we think that dark matter

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Speaker 1: is made out of matter because we see that it

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Speaker 1: affects the rotation of galaxies. Galaxies are spinning really really fast,

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Speaker 1: and without dark matter they would tear themselves apart and

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Speaker 1: throw stars into interstellar space. So we think dark matter

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Speaker 1: is real. It's made of matter. We're pretty sure that

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Speaker 1: it's not made of any kind of matter we're familiar with.

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Speaker 1: It's not made out of quarks or leptons, because if so,

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Speaker 1: we would have seen it already and it would have

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Speaker 1: affected the way the universe formed early moments. So we

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Speaker 1: think that dark matter has stuff to it. We think

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Speaker 1: it's probably made of particles. We think it's a new

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Speaker 1: kind of particle. But the thing that makes it hard

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Speaker 1: to find is that it doesn't really interact in the

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Speaker 1: ways that we're familiar with.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because everything that has matter that we know about

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Speaker 3: is a particle, right, Like, can you think of a

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Speaker 3: way in which something could have matter, but not like

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Speaker 3: a particle or a particle field.

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Speaker 1: Actually, there are a set of really fascinating ideas about

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Speaker 1: unparticle matter, matter that's made us something that's smooth and continuous.

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Speaker 1: We're going to dig into that in a podcast in

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Speaker 1: a few weeks, which is really fascinating. But it's hard

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Speaker 1: to think about. It's harder to think about than particle matter.

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Speaker 1: And when you don't know what you're doing in physics,

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Speaker 1: what you do is you start with the familiar, and

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Speaker 1: until you've ruled that out as a possibility, you don't

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Speaker 1: really take steps into the weirder, crazier options. And so

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Speaker 1: we start with the simplest idea that since everything we

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Speaker 1: know is made of particles, maybe dark matter is also

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Speaker 1: made of particles. But we don't actually know that.

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Speaker 3: It's like you have to check off the obvious first.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you start with the simplest explanation. It's easiest, you

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Speaker 1: know how to do it. It makes the most sense,

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Speaker 1: and so you start there, you know. But we have

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Speaker 1: a variety of folks working in a variety of different ideas,

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Speaker 1: but this is sort of the main thrust.

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Speaker 3: That's the first time I hear that phrase. Unparticle matter.

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Speaker 3: What did you just call it? Like smooth matter or

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Speaker 3: creamy matter?

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Speaker 1: Creamy matter sounds like something I would like to put

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Speaker 1: on top of my apasta.

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Speaker 3: How about dark creamy matter even better?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that sounds like something my wife would study.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that we don't know about dark matter

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Speaker 1: is how to see it. Because dark matter doesn't give

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Speaker 1: off light, it doesn't reflect light. It's basically totally transparent

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Speaker 1: to matter. You might think of dark matter and think

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Speaker 1: of something black or dark that you couldn't see through,

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Speaker 1: but it's the opposite. It's something invisible. Life passes right

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Speaker 1: through it without interacting, except, of course, that dark matter

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Speaker 1: has gravity, and so it can bend space and slightly

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Speaker 1: distort the path of light.

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Speaker 3: Right, So dark matter doesn't interact with us, our devices,

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Speaker 3: our stuff in the usual ways through electromagnetic forces, but

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Speaker 3: people think that it may interact with us through other

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Speaker 3: forces like the weak force.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we hope that dark matter has some way of

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Speaker 1: interacting with our kind of matter, not just because we

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Speaker 1: want to feel connected to dark matter, but because all

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Speaker 1: of our experiments are made of our kind of matter,

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Speaker 1: and so if we're going to try to catch some

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Speaker 1: dark matter, then we have to build our experiments out

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Speaker 1: of something that matter will interact with. You know, imagine

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Speaker 1: like dark matter is flying through the room and you're

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Speaker 1: trying to catch one, but you're using a catcher's mit

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Speaker 1: that dark matter flies right through. Now you have no

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Speaker 1: chance to catch a particle of dark matter. So we

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Speaker 1: hope that dark matter does have some kind of interaction

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Speaker 1: with our kind of matter. We don't know exactly what

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Speaker 1: kind of interaction that would be. We're pretty sure it's

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Speaker 1: not electromagnetic. We know it doesn't use the strong force.

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Speaker 1: We're almost certain it doesn't use the weak nuclear force.

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Speaker 1: So we're hoping there might be a new force, an

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Speaker 1: undiscovered force, that connects dark matter with our kind of matter. Wow,

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Speaker 1: catch a ghost exactly. It's trying to catch a tiny,

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Speaker 1: tiny little ghost with a super tiny little Catcher's myth.

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Speaker 3: All right, So then how did this DAMA experiment work?

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Speaker 3: What are they using to claim to have caught dark matter?

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Speaker 1: So there's a whole category of experiments looking for dark

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Speaker 1: matter that are called direct detection. And what they do

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Speaker 1: is they set up a big lump of material, usually

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Speaker 1: very quiet material that doesn't interact very much with things normally,

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Speaker 1: and they let it sit there underground under a bunch

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Speaker 1: of shielding, and they hope that a piece of dark

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Speaker 1: matter will fly through the Earth and bounce into a

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Speaker 1: molecule in their lump of stuff, and when that happens,

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Speaker 1: they'll get a little flash of light or in some

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Speaker 1: cases a wiggle of an electron. And so they've built,

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Speaker 1: you know, essentially a big catchers MyD and they hope

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Speaker 1: that a piece of dark matter will bump into it

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Speaker 1: and give them a little signal. So that's the whole

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Speaker 1: category of these kinds of experiments. And people use different

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Speaker 1: kinds of material. Some use liquid xenon, some people use

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Speaker 1: super cool semiconductors. This experience is using crystals, crystals of

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Speaker 1: sodium iodide.

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Speaker 3: And so you put them on in like a box

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Speaker 3: and your hope is that the dark matter goes through

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Speaker 3: the box, but then somehow, you know, causes your crystalline

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Speaker 3: sodium to spark somehow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're hoping that dark matter can interact with the

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Speaker 1: protons or the neutrons inside the atoms of these crystals,

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Speaker 1: and that occasionally, one out of a trillion times or

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Speaker 1: ten trillion times or one hundred trillion times, it will

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Speaker 1: bump into one of those protons and give it a

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Speaker 1: little boost. And the reason they choose this sodium idide

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Speaker 1: crystal is that it has a special property. When it

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Speaker 1: does get bumped, it tends to resettle back into its

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Speaker 1: old situation, and it does so by giving off a

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Speaker 1: little photon.

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Speaker 3: So as you say it.

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Speaker 1: Sparks, and physics we call that scintillation. So it sends

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Speaker 1: off a little photon, and then you can catch that

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Speaker 1: with these photo multiplier tubes. So you're basically looking at

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Speaker 1: a dark crystal underground hoping to see a flash of light.

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Speaker 3: Sorry's scintillating, Daniel, And so Dama claims that they've seen

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Speaker 3: dark matter, that they they have a signal for dark matter,

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Speaker 3: but nobody seems to believe them. So let's dig into

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Speaker 3: what they actually saw and why it's so hard to accept.

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Speaker 3: But first, let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 3: All right, Daniel, we're talking about the Doma experiment in

448
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 3: Italy who have been claiming for twenty years that they've

449
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 3: found DarkMatter. Nobody believes them, and so they have a

450
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 3: big vat of crystalline sodium underground shielded and they've seen

451
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 3: it may be interact with dark matter. So what exactly

452
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 3: have they seen?

453
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what they see is really striking because what

454
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: they're looking for are these little flashes of light. But

455
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 1: of course dark matter is not the only thing that

456
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 1: might give you those flashes of light. You could have

457
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: like radioactive decay, and the rock. This thing is underground

458
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 1: in the Grand Sasso mind in Italy, and you know,

459
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 1: the rocks nearby can have a little bit of radioactive

460
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: decay or muons can penetrate the rock sometimes and get

461
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,919
Speaker 1: all the way down to your experiment. So you have

462
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: some sources of background that are.

463
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 3: Not dark matter. Isn't it shielded? Don't they put it

464
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 3: behind big thick walls or something?

465
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, And first of all, they've buried it in this

466
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: mine under like you know, miles of marble and granite,

467
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: which is awesome shielding. But then yes, absolutely, they have

468
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: things surrounded by concrete and they have fiberglass. They do

469
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: their best to shield it, but you can't always shield

470
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: things completely perfectly. There will always be some level of background.

471
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: So what they do is they look for something that

472
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: only the dark matter could do, a signal that would

473
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: look different if it was dark matter or if it

474
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: was one of these normal everyday backgrounds. And the idea

475
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 1: they had is to look for seasonal variations.

476
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 3: Like in the fall, it tastes a little bit like

477
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 3: pumpkin spice, and then in the winter it in the

478
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 3: spring it smells a little bit like flowers.

479
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: No, they have this idea of taking advantage of the

480
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: fact that the Earth is moving through the dark matter

481
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: at different speeds, and when we move through the dark

482
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: matter at higher speed, they should see more dark matter

483
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: interacting with their detector, and when we move through at

484
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 1: a lower speed, they should see less dark matter interacting

485
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 1: with their detector. And that's just because we're going around

486
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: the Sun, and so sometimes we're moving more with the

487
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: dark matter and sometimes we're moving more against the dark matter.

488
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 3: It's kind of like this old idea of the ether,

489
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 3: kind of, isn't it. You know, if we are in

490
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 3: a big cloud of dark matter and the Sun and

491
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 3: the Earth is moving through it as we go around

492
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 3: the Sun, then you know, sometimes we'll see it going

493
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 3: one way and then other times we'll be seeing the

494
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 3: dark matter fly by another way.

495
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very similar to the idea of the ether

496
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: in that there's sort of a rest frame.

497
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 3: Right.

498
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: We don't know exactly where the dark matter is, but

499
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 1: we imagine it's pretty smoothly distributed through the galaxy. Again,

500
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: we don't know that it might have clumped, but dark

501
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: matter is very slow moving and so we think it's

502
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: pretty diffuse. We think it's pretty much spread out We

503
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: also don't know how fast it's rotating. We think it's

504
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: rotating around the center of the galaxy, just like our

505
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: kind of matter is. But regardless of how fast it's rotating,

506
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: you can imagine some rest frame for the dark matter,

507
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: and then the Earth is moving in that rest frame

508
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: because it orbits the Sun, and so some part of

509
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: the year is moving through it faster than other parts

510
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: of the year. So their idea is, well, let's look

511
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: for that. If this is dark matter, not muons or

512
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: crazy radioactive decay or something else, then we should see

513
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: a seasonal variation in our signal. We sh more interactions

514
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: in June than.

515
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 3: In December because we're assuming that dark matter kind of

516
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 3: has a velocity, and sometimes we're going against the current

517
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 3: of dark matter and sometimes we're going with the current.

518
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you don't have to assume that dark matter

519
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: has a velocity with respect to the galaxy. It's our

520
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: velocity relative to the dark matter that's important. So you

521
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: can always just pick your restrame. And if you pick

522
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: your rest frame as the dark matter, then our velocity

523
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: through that dark matter has to be changing year to

524
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: year because we're orbiting the Sun and dark matter is

525
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: not orbiting our Sun.

526
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: Right, But I think you have to also account for

527
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 3: the fact that we're going around the galaxy, right, because

528
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 3: if we were just going around the Sun then and

529
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 3: dark matter was static, we would see it go the

530
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 3: same speed bias, it would just be in different directions.

531
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 3: It's more about the interactions with our rotation around the galaxy.

532
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: Too, right, Yeah, you can think about it that way,

533
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: you know, think about it like the Earth and the

534
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: Sun are moving in the same direction relation to the

535
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: dark matter or relative to the rest of the galaxy

536
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: during part of the year, and in the other part

537
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: of the year that you're moving the opposite direction. So

538
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: the Sun is moving around the galaxy in one direction

539
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: and the Earth is going the other way because it's

540
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: a different part of its cycle around the Sun. And

541
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: so these velocities add up differently. Sometimes they add up

542
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: to make a larger velocity relative to the dark matter,

543
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: and sometimes they point in the opposite direction of each other,

544
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: and so they make a smaller velocity relative to the

545
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: dark matter.

546
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 3: So like if you're just standing on Earth, you would

547
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 3: sort of see dark matter sometimes flow past you really

548
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 3: quickly and sometimes more slowly like a dark matter wind.

549
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: Yes, just like a dark matter wind. And so that's

550
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: the idea, is like, let's look to see if there

551
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: are more dark matter interactions in June than in December,

552
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: because that seasonal variation would be what you expect to

553
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: see from dark matter which has this seasonally varying velocity relative.

554
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 3: To the Earth. And it had nothing to do with

555
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 3: pumpkin spice or maybe worse shorts in the summer.

556
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: Well, you know, nobody understands the results of this experiment,

557
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: so maybe it is just the cumulative effect of pumpkin

558
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: spice lotte.

559
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 3: Yay, pumpkin spice espressoes, because you know they're in Italy,

560
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 3: all right, So they've seen a signal basically, is what

561
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 3: you're saying, is that they've seen a seasonal variation in

562
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 3: their detection of dark matter according to sort of the

563
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 3: motion of the Earth, which might be like, hey, maybe

564
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 3: dark matter is there and it is seasonal.

565
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, they are seeing this seasonal variation. If you

566
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: look at a plot of their results, the sort of

567
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: number of sparks they see is a function of the day.

568
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 1: Then you see it goes up and it peaks in June,

569
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: and it falls down and it minimizes in December and

570
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: then it goes back up again. And you know, they've

571
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: been running this experiment for years, which allows them to

572
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: see lots of these cycles, and so it's not just

573
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: like one little wiggle which could have been anything. It's

574
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: definitely a cycle, and it's definitely annual, and it definitely

575
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 1: peaks and dips in the right places.

576
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, they've been seen signals for fourteen years. Like

577
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 3: it's not a one time fluke that they see the pattern.

578
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 3: It's like they've been measuring this and it goes up

579
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 3: and down yearly for fourteen years.

580
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, for at least fourteen years. They've had a few

581
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: iterations of this experiment. They've upgraded this, they've tweaked that,

582
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: and so different plots that have different numbers of years

583
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: on them. But you know, almost twenty years ago they

584
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: started seeing this signal. In the first few years people

585
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: were like, nah, keep taking data, we don't believe it.

586
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: But now they have these plots that just like wiggle

587
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: and wiggle and wiggle and wiggle, and it's very unlikely

588
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: that it's a fluke. You know, if you do the calculation,

589
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: what are the chances of seeing this kind of wiggle

590
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: from something which is actually flat. It's very very small.

591
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: The threshold for discovering particle physics is five sigma, which

592
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: means like, you know, in millions of chances of being

593
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: a background fluctuation. But they have nine sigma, which is

594
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: like almost unimaginable. So this is definitely a signal something

595
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: is happening here. The remaining question is is it really

596
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: dark matter?

597
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 3: All right? So they have fourteen years of data, it's

598
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 3: a pretty clear wiggle that there's dark matter, but nobody

599
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: believes them. So what's going on, Daniel? Do people just

600
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 3: don't believe their data? Are they suspicious? And is it

601
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 3: that nobody's been able to see it in the same way?

602
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: What's going on? Well, there's a lot of things going

603
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: on here. Some of them are technical and scientific, and

604
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: some of them are sort of sociological and maybe personal.

605
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 3: Ooh, some people don't like pasta.

606
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: Everybody likes pasta. Some people just don't put parmesan on

607
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: their shrimp pasta, which is you know, unimaginable. That's a yes,

608
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: yes for me anyway. One problem is that they have

609
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: not really shared the details of their data, like they

610
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: show up at conferences, they write papers, they show these

611
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: results that look great, but they haven't opened up their

612
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: box to show us like the nuts and bolts how

613
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: they analyze the data and shared a lot of details.

614
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: And as you can expect, physicists want to see details.

615
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: You can't just show up with your one discovery plot

616
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: and say, look, we've discovered it, let's all move on.

617
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: People want to dig into it and understand it and

618
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 1: think about how to double check it. And they've been

619
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: pretty closed with their.

620
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,959
Speaker 3: Data, right. Well, it used to be that people are

621
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 3: super closed, but I think the more recent trend is

622
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: for everyone to just open up their files and let

623
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 3: everyone sift through your numbers.

624
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and

625
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: so you have to like respond to questions and give

626
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: details when people ask you send a paper in for

627
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: a review, for example, the reviewers can ask for more

628
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: experiments or additional plots, because what they want to do

629
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: is make sure this is real, that it makes sense

630
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: to them. You can't just be one pretty plot. It

631
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: has to reflect something true about the universe, and so

632
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: people want a consistent story, something that tells them this

633
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: is really dark matter and not something else.

634
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 3: So what's their excuse for not releasing the data. Are

635
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: they under audit or something.

636
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 5: I don't know.

637
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: It's a bit of a cultural thing, you know. They

638
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: show up at conferences, and as one dark matter theorist

639
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: described to me, they seem aggressively uninterested in what other

640
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: people think about their data.

641
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 3: I think you're saying they're too cool.

642
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: They believe their result, they're very confident in it, but

643
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: they haven't shared enough details for other people to really

644
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: gain confidence in their results. And so instead people have

645
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: had to turn to other experiments which should be sensitive

646
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: to the same signal, to see if they can confirm it.

647
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: Right, because maybe another experiment that with a similar setup,

648
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 3: like with a vat of stuff waiting to interact with

649
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 3: dark matter, would also see like these seasonal spikes.

650
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would expect so. And in fact, one of

651
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: the other big dark matter experiments in the world, the

652
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: Xenon Experiment, is sitting in the same last Like they

653
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: have this big hallowed out space under this mountain to

654
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: do these kinds of experiments, and they gave part of

655
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: it to the DOM experiment and part of it to

656
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: the Xenon experiment. So the Xenon experiment is literally in

657
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: the same place as the doma experiment. So if there's

658
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: any issues with like seasonal variations on temperature or something else, right,

659
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: that's the concerns that there might be some seasonal source

660
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: of background that they haven't accounted for. Xenon is in

661
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: the same place, it's in the same lab. They do

662
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: not see this seasonal variation.

663
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: They see that h So nobody's seen this seasonal variation.

664
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 3: There's several of these dark matter experiments, but nobody has

665
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 3: seen this kind of variation with the year.

666
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: That's right. There's a huge variety of dark matter experiments.

667
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: They have different like active materials like liquid xenon versus

668
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: sodium idide crystals. They're in different places around the world,

669
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: they have different sensor technologies. Nobody has seen or results

670
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: that's consistent with what DAMA has seen, and so you

671
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: might ask like, well, would they have seen these results?

672
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: Is it possible for dark matter to only interact with

673
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: this one kind of material and not the others? And

674
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: so people have built like boutique theories of dark matters

675
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: to try to explain this Doma experiment. Why Doma would

676
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: see it but xenon wouldn't, Like, maybe it only interacts

677
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: with neutrons instead of protons or it prefers protons in

678
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: one arrangement to another kind of arrangement, but nobody has

679
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: been able to explain it. And in the meantime, people

680
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: have built copies of the DAMA experiment that are essentially

681
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: the same technology, the same active material, the same kind

682
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: of sensors, but just in different locations to try to

683
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: double check DAMA.

684
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: Really interesting, they've used like this crystalline sodium also, and

685
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 3: they've put it inside of a mine. And do they

686
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: see anything.

687
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: They don't see anything yet. So there's an experiment in

688
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: South Korea called cosine, and I have no idea what

689
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: that stands for, but they basically have duplicated the Doma's

690
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: experiments set up, but they don't see the results. Now,

691
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: this is a difficult thing to do. It takes years

692
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: of data to say are we seeing a flat line

693
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: or are we seeing wiggles? So so far they only

694
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: have a couple of years of data and they say

695
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: their results are in quote severe tension with the DAMA results,

696
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: but they also admit that it could be consistent with DAMA.

697
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: They just don't have enough data yet, so time will

698
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: tell if Cosine sees a wiggle or not. But so

699
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: far the indications are that they haven't interesting.

700
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 3: They want to see it happen before they cosine the certification.

701
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: There, that's right. They want to see their own cosine

702
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: in the data.

703
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 3: I want to see their own wiggles. Yeah, uh, all right,

704
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 3: but still DAMA is pretty confident about their results.

705
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: DAMA is pretty confident in their results. You know, they

706
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: believe that it's dark matter. People have thought about all

707
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: sorts of other sources of the background, like maybe the

708
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: rock heats up in the summer and it gives off

709
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: more radiation and that leaks to the experiment, and they

710
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: have all sorts of ways to monitor this and they

711
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: don't see that kind of thing. So physicists in the

712
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: community has been a lot of energy brainstorming possible explanations

713
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: for what might explain this other than dark matter, more

714
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: prosaic explanations, and so far they haven't figured out anything

715
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: that they can point to that says, here's why DAMA

716
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: is seeing this signal. It's not dark matter. It's you know,

717
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: growth of plants on the top of the mountain is

718
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 1: releasing something in June or something like that. But nobody's

719
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: found that explanation yet.

720
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 3: All right, let's get into what maybe DAMA is seeing

721
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 3: in their signals of dark matter and why nobody believes

722
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 3: any of these. But first, let's take a quick break.

723
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

724
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,000
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725
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

726
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,760
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727
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,080
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728
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729
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,480
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730
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,319
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731
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732
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733
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734
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736
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737
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,719
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738
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739
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742
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Speaker 3: All right. Daniel the Domba Experiment has been seeing a

761
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 3: dark matter signal for fourteen years, but nobody believes them

762
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 3: and nobody can replicate the results. So what are some

763
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: of the possibilities seares of what they could be seeing.

764
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 3: Do they have like a wire that's not connected right

765
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 3: but only once a year? Or is it could be

766
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 3: the air conditioning in the room that the you know,

767
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 3: in the summer kicks up more or what could it be?

768
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the sort of two categories of possible explanations.

769
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: One are non dark matter explanations right, and ideas there

770
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: are like they use nitrogen in their experiment, but it

771
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: also has a little bit of argon in it. They

772
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: surround the experiment with argon, and it could be that

773
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: some of that argon has seasonal variations in it that's

774
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: more activated during June than in December.

775
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 3: Based on what how would the argon know what this

776
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 3: season was?

777
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: Well, it's not that an individual argon atom knows the

778
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: season or like celebrates Christmas. It's that the amount of

779
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: radioactive argon around the experiment depends on the season. The

780
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: contaminant we're interested in here is argne thirty seven, which

781
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: is made when neutrons hit calcium in the soil or

782
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: are on thirty six in the atmosphere and the neutron flux.

783
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: The number of neutrons coming in to make arc on

784
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: thirty seven has a seasonal variation due to the variation

785
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: and atmosphere density, which it determines like how many make

786
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: it all the way down. But you know, people are

787
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: really scratching their heads trying to think of crazy explanations,

788
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: because of course, the folks in Dama are solid physicists

789
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: and they've taken care of all the obvious effects that

790
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: have as much you know, climate controlling as they can

791
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: manage in this environment to try to isolate themselves from

792
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: any sort of seasonal variations. But you know, at the colliders,

793
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: we're also sensitive to really really tiny effects. The phases

794
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: of the moon affect the shape of the rock near

795
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: Lake Geneva, and that affects the bending of the accelerator

796
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 1: because it's under the rock, and people notice these.

797
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 3: Things what you see tidal effects in your data.

798
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: Absolutely, the train schedules in Geneva affected the results of

799
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: colliders in those tunnels, and so we can be very

800
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: sensitive to very small effects.

801
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 3: What how did the trains affect You're the particle collision?

802
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 3: Is it like the vibrations of the trains, or just

803
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 3: more people on campus at certain times.

804
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: It's really amazing. Actually it was the electricity from the trains.

805
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: Some of the extra current leaks down and made little

806
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: gentle magnetic fields which actually influenced the operation of the collider.

807
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: And so when you're hunting down tiny little explanations and

808
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: you're trying to separate the ideas from like dark matter

809
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: to other basic prosaic explanations, you got to go all

810
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: the way down the list for really small effects.

811
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 3: Wow, all right, So what else could this signal they're seeing?

812
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 3: What else could it be? Could it be, you know,

813
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 3: some other kind of theory about how it dark matter interacts.

814
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: It could certainly be, like there could be other ways

815
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: that dark matter interacts. It could be that dark matter

816
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: is something weird that we hadn't imagine before, and that's

817
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: why we're seeing it only in these crystals but not

818
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: in others. Now, the cosine experiments and the other ones

819
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: that are replicating this make it pretty hard to follow

820
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: that kind of explanation because they're basically a copy of

821
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 1: DAMA and they don't see it. But put those aside,

822
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: and let's say maybe cosine and the other experiments that

823
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: are trying to replicate it just don't have enough data yet.

824
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: People have cooked up theories that try to explain why

825
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: dark matter interacts with sodium iodide more than it interacts

826
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: with xenon, for example.

827
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 3: Like dark maybe dark matter prefers Italians or you know,

828
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 3: lightsification in Italy more than it does in South Korea.

829
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it also has to do with the mass,

830
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: because xenon is heavier, for example, than other elements, and

831
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: so dark matter is very very low mass. If it

832
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: doesn't have a lot of oomph to it, then it

833
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: might be that it's just harder for it to push

834
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: xenon than to interact with sodium iodide. And so people

835
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: have come up with these theories of like very light

836
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: dark matter, but those theories are also hard to explain

837
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: because DAMA builds a new system in their experiment, one

838
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: that should be sensitive to sort of lower energy results,

839
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: and they don't see any difference in the low energy

840
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: results and the original ones. And if there was very

841
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: very light dark matter, they would expect to see a

842
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: larger signal in these low energy she recoils, but they don't.

843
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: So people spent a lot of time trying to construct

844
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 1: these fancy dark matter theories that could explain DAMA as

845
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 1: dark matter, but none of them really hold water. So

846
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 1: the consensus in the dark matter community is that DAMA

847
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: is not seeing dark matter. They're seeing something else. We

848
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: just don't know what it is yet.

849
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: I guess the problem too, is that, you know, as

850
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 3: we go around the Sun, it's not just about more

851
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 3: sunlight or less sunlight. It's also kind of there's other

852
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 3: stuff going out there in space.

853
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: Right, Absolutely there are variations and like how many muons

854
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: strike the Earth because muons come to the Earth from

855
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: cosmic rays and not just from the Sun, but also

856
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: from galactic sources, like there are muons being created by

857
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: other stars and from the galactic center that hit the Earth,

858
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: and so that varies also with the seasons for similar reasons.

859
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: And so it could be that they're seeing some weird

860
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 1: dark off effect from these cosmic muon seasons. It could

861
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 1: be that nobody's really nailed that down.

862
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 3: Yet, all right, So the consensus is that they're not

863
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 3: seeing dark matter. But have they told DAMA that they

864
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 3: that everyone thinks so? Or is this just sort of

865
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 3: a like a background whispering, Like I don't think they've

866
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 3: seen it.

867
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 1: DAMA is definitely aware that their explanation is not accepted,

868
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: but they are very confident. You know, they are sure

869
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 1: that their experiment indicates the presence of dark matter particles

870
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: in the halo. There's a quote from the longtime leader

871
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: of the experiment saying, there is no alternative explanation for

872
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: our signal.

873
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 3: Wow.

874
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: So they're very confident. They are aware that nobody believes them,

875
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: but they're powering forward.

876
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: You know, Wow, what do you think, Daniel, Are you

877
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 3: aggressively interested or aggressively uninterested in this result?

878
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: When I've first heard about it, I was super excited.

879
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: I was like, what a beautiful signal, what a nice experiment.

880
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: I would love to believe it, But you know, before

881
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: you believe something like this, you really have to see

882
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: it replicated. Because we're not interested in one cute story

883
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 1: of an experiment that sees a cool wiggle. We're interested

884
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: in the actual story of dark matter. And if it's

885
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: a real story of science, you should appear in more

886
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: than one place. You should be able to see it

887
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: using more than one technique, or you should at least

888
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: be able to tell a coherent story about why it's

889
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: here and not there, because the universe, we think, is

890
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: a coherent story, and so we should be able to

891
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 1: pull it apart by looking at it from different angles.

892
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: And this is so difficult to see that you really

893
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: have to see it in more than one place before

894
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: you believe it.

895
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:24,479
Speaker 7: Right.

896
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 3: You don't want it to be weak pasta right.

897
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: That's right. And so there's another experiment being built in

898
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: the Southern hemisphere, and the Saber experiment, and it's very

899
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: similar to the Dama experiment, except again it's in the

900
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: southern hemisphere, and so it should have the opposite seasonal

901
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: related systematic uncertainties because it's cold when Dama is warm,

902
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: and it'll be warm when Dama is.

903
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 3: Cold if it's not related to the dark matter. But

904
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: if it is, it should see the same seasonal changes, right,

905
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 3: because it's moving along. It's about the movement of the.

906
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: Earth exactly, and so it's just another cross check. Let's

907
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: move all temperature related things off by six months. The

908
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 1: dark matter shouldn't change at all. So if they see

909
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: a signal and it's shifted, that suggests that it's a

910
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: temperature seasonal variation thing. If they see a signal and

911
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: it's not shifted, then that removes a lot of the

912
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: possible explanations for temperature variations. It doesn't change things like

913
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: you know, cosmic muon seasons, but it helps us sort

914
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 1: of isolate what this.

915
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 3: Might be, right, and did they find anything.

916
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: They're still building it and so we don't know the

917
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: results of the Saber experiment. It's being built in a

918
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 1: gold mine in Australia, and everybody's very eager to see

919
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: what that experiment has to say.

920
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 3: All right, So I guess the answer is stay tuned.

921
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 3: I guess nobody believes the Dama experiment because it hasn't

922
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 3: been replicated, and it could still be other things that

923
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 3: cause it the signal.

924
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: That's right, there's no coherent explanation in which DAMA is

925
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: seeing dark matter and somehow nobody else is able to

926
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: see it, and so the most likely explanation is that

927
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: it's some weird source of signal that they have at

928
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: ice yet, but it could still be. It could be

929
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,439
Speaker 1: that there are pockets of dark matter where the dark

930
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: matter is interacting with some weird kind of matter that

931
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: only exists around the DAMA experiment in Italy for some

932
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: weird reason. But you have to have sort of crazier

933
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: and crazier thoughts to explain this and to explain the

934
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 1: lack of signal and all the other experiences I see.

935
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: I guess it's sort of the change for both sides

936
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 3: of people trying to prove this data, right, Like, it's

937
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 3: getting harder to come up with excuses, but it's also

938
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 3: getting harder to replicate. Yeah.

939
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely, But it's also a fun puzzle if you're an

940
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: experimentalist and you like to dig around in the data

941
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: and understand where's this coming from? Why does it look

942
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: this way and not the other way. It's not a

943
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: deep mystery of the universe, but it is a fun

944
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: question to ask, like what could be the source of this?

945
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: It's a nice little detective mystery. And the person who

946
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: actually figures it out eventually might not win the Nobel Prize,

947
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,479
Speaker 1: but they will scratch long standing itch in particle physics,

948
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: a dark itch, the dark itch that really matters.

949
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 3: All right, Well, stay tuned, and maybe I mean in

950
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 3: the next couple of years we'll hear news about whether

951
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 3: it's real or not, whether they deserve the Nobel Prize

952
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 3: or just a nice dinner with a nice glass of

953
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 3: Italian More.

954
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: And plenty of parmesan sprinkled on top.

955
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 3: All right, thanks for joining us, see you next time.

956
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

957
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Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

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