1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I'm a product of 2 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: Mississippi Delta. I was born, grew up in that environment, 3 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: and the river itself dictates life all up and down it. 4 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: It dictates the way you travel, It dictates the way 5 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: you're gonna eat, It dictates the weather patterns that come in. 6 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: And the one thing that you can say about the 7 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: Mississippi River is it cuts its way across our country 8 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: is that it leaves marks everywhere it goes. The life 9 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: of Lorenzen Right was marked by the river. It was 10 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: marked by Memphis in that place that he grew up, 11 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: in that place he called home. And in July of 12 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: Lorenzen was last seen live dealing with family, the people 13 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: that he loved, the people that he took care of. 14 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: It was hot, it was sticky, it was a typical 15 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: Deep South summer, and nobody knew that that was gonna be. 16 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: On July eighth, the last time anyone would see Lorenzen 17 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: Right alive. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. 18 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, 19 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: is joining me. Jackie. You and I both grew up 20 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: in the South, and we know how temperature influences everything. 21 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: We know of what those sweet, sticky summers are like, hot, sultry, 22 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: and Lorenzen had grown up in this environment his entire life. 23 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: Didn't amazing how one man can impact so many people's lives, 24 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: particularly in the town of Memphis, Tennessee. It is Joe. 25 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: And as much as Southerners like to talk about the weather, 26 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: there is nothing we like talking about more than hometown 27 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: boys making it good. You know, hometown folk that go 28 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: on to have great success. And that is just exactly 29 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: what Lorenzen Wright did. He was a local high school 30 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: basketball star in Memphis. He went on to play college 31 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: basketball at the University of Memphis and then went on 32 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: to play in the NBA with the Memphis Grizzlies. You 33 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: can't have anyone else that's considered more of a hometown 34 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: boy than Lorenz and Right. And people described him not 35 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: only as a basketball star, but as a good person. 36 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: He was always giving back. He was always good with children, 37 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: helping out in the community, making donations. He was well 38 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: known as the person if someone was raising money for 39 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: a very noteworthy cause, Lawrence and Right was always there 40 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: to volunteer and lend a hand. Now, he was married 41 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: and he had seven children, and throughout his basketball career 42 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: he made good. But along the way by Lorenz and 43 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: Right was thirty four years old and already at the 44 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: end of his NBA career and his marriage broke down. 45 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: But he was always there and considered a consummate father. 46 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: But he did have one child who died as an 47 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: infant from SIDS. And before we talk about what happened 48 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: to Lorenz and Right, I'd like to talk about this 49 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: infant death because we know from doing what we do, 50 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: how much an infant death affects the family. Tell me 51 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: what SIDS Sudden Infant death syndrome is and how this 52 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: child died. Yeah, it's it's hard to even plumb the 53 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: depths of this sorrow. You know, when you have a 54 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: child that that passes on, you know, and it's one 55 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: thing if you have a specific cause of death relative 56 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: to how that child is has died. But SIDS is 57 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: such a broad ranging and non specific causal factor. And 58 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: let me just kind of lay it out to you 59 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: the way it works. Generally, most children that that die 60 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: of SIDS, they put a kind of a time frame 61 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: on it. It ranges you're looking at kids from essentially 62 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: age about two to three months old up to about 63 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: ten months to eleven months. And you know, just so 64 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: that we understand, Lorenzen's child that did succumb to SITS 65 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: died in their eleventh month of life, so they were 66 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: at the outer the outer fringes. And you know, for 67 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: years and years people referred to SITS. SIDS is actually 68 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: crib death. It's such a is such a common thing 69 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: throughout our history that people understood and have understood for 70 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: years that suddenly children will just pass away and there's 71 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: no explanation. And still to this day, with all of 72 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: the medical technology that we have, even from a pathology standpoint, 73 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: and I've worked hundreds of sid's deaths over the years, um, 74 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 1: we cannot put a specific causal factor on on what 75 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: brought about the death. Many times you will have mothers, 76 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: and I find this consistently in my practice. You would 77 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: find mothers that would state and it was always in 78 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: these terms the mother. When you interview the mother at 79 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: the emergency room or out at out at the home 80 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: where the child has passed away, you would ask the mom, 81 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, like what what occurred? What has been occurring 82 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: with this baby? Over the past, you know, a couple 83 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: of days, a couple of weeks that have you seen 84 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 1: any changes in appetite or fussiness or anything like that. 85 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: And they would almost consistently say, baby had a little cold. 86 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: And I don't mean cold like being chilly, I mean 87 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: like a slight running nose. It was nothing too productive 88 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: many times, but it seems to be tied to some 89 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: kind of respiratory issue, maybe coupled with a cardiac event 90 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: that we cannot put our specific fingers on. And so 91 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: this death of this child, according to what we have 92 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: ascertained through interviews with family and friends, they said that 93 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: this impacted Lorenzen just about more than anything had in 94 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: his life. Because the man loved his family. He loved 95 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 1: these kids, He loved his wife, you know, he certainly 96 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: loved his parents. He spent a lot of time back 97 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: home in Memphis, and you know, his mother some Oxford, Mississippi, 98 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: which is just about eighty miles south southeast of Memphis. 99 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: He'd go home to visit them periodically, and family was 100 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: the world to him. And to have a child that 101 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: died and die suddenly, and then there's nothing to really 102 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: intellectually hang your hat on and say, this is what 103 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: brought about the death is something that you can't take 104 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: a lot of comfort in. One of the things as 105 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: we moved forward talking about the death of Lorenz and Right, 106 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: certainly he was effected by the death of his child, 107 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: but we also find out that Lorenzen Right was in 108 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: debt tremendously. In his career with the NBA, he earned 109 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: over fifty five million dollars, but as his career ended, 110 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: he was basically broke. He had two homes in foreclosure. 111 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: His wife's Shara, claimed that creditors were coming after them, 112 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: and the thought was that this weighed upon him and 113 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: the actions that he took in a very serious way. Yeah, 114 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: and you know, there had been some talk along the 115 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: way that that Lorenzen had been entertaining the possibility of 116 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: going to Europe to play, or maybe the Middle East. 117 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: I think Italy had come up. In Israel had come up, 118 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, because they love basketball and they have their 119 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: own pro leagues, and many times our players at a 120 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: young age will go over and try to build up 121 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: their resume and then come back to the US and 122 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: try to catch on with an NBA team. And this 123 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: happens in the reverse as well. When you know the 124 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: careers are winding down, some of our American players will 125 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: jump over there, and isn't that and that that's something 126 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: you can imagine, you know, the impact if somebody with 127 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: the status of Lorenz and rights showing up in in 128 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: Italy or or Israel. It would put people in seats 129 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: certainly to see him play. So there was kind of 130 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: an attraction there. But you know, we're just talking about family. 131 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: Can you imagine flying literally across the world, halfway across 132 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: the world, you go to Israel from you know, Memphis, Tennessee, 133 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: and you're gonna be away from these kids. And I 134 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: can understand why he would be so damn about this 135 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: because he had worked so many years years and had 136 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: made it to this point in his career. He had 137 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: nothing to show for it. And I'm talking about material, 138 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: material goods. You know, people were coming after his property, 139 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: these sorts of things, and he's put in this position 140 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: that look, in order to keep a roof over my head, 141 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: the heads my kids, I'm going to have to go 142 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,119 Speaker 1: to a foreign country to play. I can only imagine 143 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: how this probably diminished him potentially as a man. And 144 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: it's certainly I'm sure that it caused great anxiety in 145 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: him as he moved on through the end of his career. 146 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: The state of his marriage did not help his anxiety 147 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: at all. In this time, his marriage of many years dissolved, 148 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: yet the couple still had a sexual intimate relationship, so 149 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: it certainly had to add to his mental confusion. Yeah, 150 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: I would think, so, you know, you've still got this 151 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: kind of intimacy and and look, when you have that 152 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: kind of intimate physical relationship with somebody that you've been 153 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: involved with, I mean these two, you know, his his 154 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: ex wife and he were both high school sweethearts. I 155 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: mean they've got a history. Okay, they know each other, 156 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: and they've they've created you know, seven lives together as well. 157 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: So they've been through good times and bad times. They've 158 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: seen these great success as he's had. And yeah, I 159 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: can see why that would be confusing. You know, you 160 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: don't our marriage is dissolved, but yet there's still this 161 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,239 Speaker 1: you know, intimate connection and and not only the intimacy, 162 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: the physical part of it, but also the intimacy when 163 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: it comes to kind of these emotional strings that you 164 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 1: have where he's probably sharing with her the issues that 165 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: are going on his life. He might still share with 166 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: her the fears that he has, the apprehension and that 167 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and it really puts him in a 168 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 1: weekend position. And that was what many people thought of 169 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: when Lorenzen Right first went missing. Did he do something 170 00:10:51,080 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: to himself or had something happened to Lorenzen Right? To 171 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: say that Lorenzen Right was missing, it's kind of it's 172 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: kind of an odd statement when you begin to think 173 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: of it. You know, Lorenzen Right was almost seven feet tall. Uh, 174 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: how does the guy that's seven feet tall go missing? 175 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: You know you and you're thinking, well, certainly with somebody 176 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: with his status and his power, he would have to 177 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: go missing because he chose to go missing. You know, 178 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I would not want to put 179 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: myself in a position where I wanted to do any 180 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: harm to somebody that was seven feet tall. And it 181 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: was a professional athlete that was well muscled. So you're 182 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: I think that many people thought, well, he's just he's 183 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: just vanished. He's he's over it, he's you know, he's 184 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: done with the stress and those sorts of things. And 185 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: that's not entirely what happened. It's not Lorenz and Right 186 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: was missing for ten days. His mother absolutely knew that 187 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: there was something wrong. During this time, police received a 188 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: nine one one call, and while no one spoke in 189 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: the nine one one call, all you could hear was 190 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: repeated gunfire. It was not until Lorenzo Wright's body was 191 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: found again ten days later that police were able to 192 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: put the two pieces of this puzzle together. And all 193 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: it did was open a bigger puzzle, you know, unfold 194 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: more layers. How did he get to where he was found? 195 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: Was he the one who was shot or did he 196 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: shoot himself? What a puzzle this his Joe? Yeah, it 197 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: truly is. And you know, you the real tragedy in 198 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: this is that when the cell phone call was made, 199 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: it bounced off of a tower in what's called Germantown, 200 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: Germantown to and see and the nine one one operator 201 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: is on the line and she made the critical error. 202 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: And you know, we we talked about this a lot 203 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: on bodybags, and I certainly teach a lot about it 204 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: that you know, you have those golden moments when you're 205 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: doing a death investigation, those first forty eight you know, 206 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: as trite as that is as a saying, but it's true, 207 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: that's those golden forty eight hours, where as Tom begins 208 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: to progress out past that marker, and Tom, you begin 209 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: to lose things, you know, physical evidence, you lose people, 210 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. Jack, she waited eight days, 211 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: eight days to make her supervisors aware of the stone call. 212 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: No one, no one even knew about it. So when 213 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: investigators and listen, this guy is, you know, you talk 214 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: about local heroes, and this guy is a superstar in Memphis. 215 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: I mean, he's right up there with Elvis for a 216 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: lot of people in Memphis. You know, they're looking for him. 217 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: Everybody he's looking for. They want to know where Lorenzen is, 218 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: where he has wound up. And this when they got 219 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: that specific marker off of that cell tower, they knew 220 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: that they could begin to search around in that area. 221 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, as a result of the search teams going 222 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: out there, they found something that they didn't want to 223 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: see when they arrived. Absolutely and that was the skeletal remains, 224 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: for decomposing remains of Lorenz. And right, what was the 225 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: state that his body was found in? Joe knowing now, 226 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: as you said earlier, hot southern day and he had 227 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: been missing for ten days, Yeah, you know it's and 228 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: and look when you when you're in this kind of hot, 229 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: sticky environment, high humidity, high relative humidity. You know those 230 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: of us that have grown up in the Deep South 231 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, it's it's it's quite amazing. 232 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: I would you know, living in New Orleans for years, 233 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: I'd take a shower in the morning and had to 234 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: go to court. I put on my suit, and just 235 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: walking from the front door to my car, I'd be 236 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: drenched and sweat. And that's the kind of environment that 237 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: you're that you're in. It's the relative humidity, not to 238 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: mention the intense heat. And so as I've talked about before, 239 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: heat speeds up decomposition, and as time goes by, you 240 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: have this kind of uptick in the activity of at 241 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: at even at a cellular level, which when we talk 242 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: about decomposition we talk about autolytic changes and auto meeting self. 243 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: The cells begin to for lack of a better term, 244 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: begin to kind of digest themselves, the organs and that 245 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and then you have this these future 246 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: faction elements that come in. Those are elements from the 247 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: outside that begin to attack the body. And then you 248 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: have animal activity. Now, what really speeds things up with 249 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:01,479 Speaker 1: bodies that are particularly outdoors where you've got very hostile, 250 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: hot humid. This sort of thing is if the individual 251 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: prior to death has sustained an injury because you have 252 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: open defects in the body. Let's say you've got stabbing 253 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: and shooting, a bloodgeoning, you've got blood a source of 254 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: blood there, and you have openings. That's even gonna further 255 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: accelerate the activity and the decomposition. So as it turned out, 256 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, when they began to examine those remains, and 257 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, write your word, Jackie, when you mentioned that 258 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: there was that this was not totally skeletonized remained that 259 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: they had. It was decomposed of severely decomposing. There was 260 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: still some soft tissue. It's important to understand that, just 261 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: to kind of frame this so that folks understand that 262 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: the depth of this. This is a guy and I 263 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: heard I read one sports illustrator writer that actually made 264 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: this Paris, and he said, he said, this is a 265 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: man that in life would go head to head with 266 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: Shaquille O'Neill. And we all know how big Shack is. 267 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: We've see him on television all the time. When they 268 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: found his range, Jackie, his remains totaled in weight fifty 269 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: seven pounds. That's it. That's it. So in that period 270 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: of time, in those days, his body weight had reduced 271 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: from well in excess of two pounds all the way 272 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: down to fifty seven. And if that doesn't give you 273 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: an indication is how harsh that environment is, I don't 274 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 1: know what will. Well, when you described the area where 275 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: he was found as harsh, that's absolutely true because it 276 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: was a very desolate area. It was very barren, which 277 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: in turn meant no humans, which in turn meant lots 278 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: of animal nocturnal, predatory animal behavior. Yeah, yeah, you do. 279 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: And in your experience this on on multiple levels. You know, 280 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: you'll leave and see this in the city, you know, 281 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: in in urban locations where you'll have animal activity, but 282 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: you can imagine the population in a noninhabited area. It's 283 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: even going to be more robust with the animal life. 284 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: And when I say animal lives, I'm I'm talking about 285 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 1: you know, raccoons, wild dogs, code ees. They're they're known for, 286 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, along the river, and we're not too far 287 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: away from the Mississippi River at this location. You'll have 288 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: wild hogs in this area as well. And so yeah, 289 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: they begin to compromise remains. And you know, all of 290 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: these animals unlike us. You know, we think I think 291 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: that we as humans, we compare ourselves to animals. When 292 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, we smell something bad, we just assume that 293 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: that animals would smell it as well. Yeah, they smell it, 294 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: all right, but they smell it at a different in 295 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: a different manner. They smell it with the primal sensitivity. 296 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: That is, they're they're being called. They're being called by 297 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: the smell in order to consume something. It's not like us. 298 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: We might find it repugnant, and most of us would 299 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: and turn away from it, not wanting to put ourselves 300 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: to a certain point. Our curiosity will get us. Will 301 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: will smell something bad and we'll walk upon it, discover 302 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: and then retract from it. I've had this happened a 303 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: number of times with people that found decomposing bodies and 304 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: they leave immediately, some automatically throw up. Certainly people are 305 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: going to go call the police, and that's where things been. Animals, 306 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: it's just the opposite. The more intense to smell, they're 307 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: drawn in. It's almost like a magnet to steal. And 308 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: that's what happens with animals. That's just the natural course 309 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: of things. But to to another point that I think 310 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: is is quite interesting. Early on in the investigation, when 311 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: they found the Rensin's remains at this location where they were, 312 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: it's not that far away from some businesses like track 313 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: type businesses and track homes that had been put in 314 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: in that area, and one other thing, and this goes 315 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: to people thinking who might have done this. There were 316 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: a number of rumors that were kind of floating around 317 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: at the time that they thought that given the proximity 318 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: of Lorenzen's remains to the Memphis Airport, they thought that maybe, 319 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: just maybe that someone had taken Lorenzen's life and then 320 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 1: immediately left that location and hopped back on a plane 321 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: and flown out of town. In the discovery of lorenzen 322 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: Rights body. Joe, you were talking about the animal activity, 323 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: and we've talked about this before on body bags, that 324 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: animals will disperse the bones when the investigators started recovering 325 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: the body. Can you describe this a little bit for me, 326 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: because it's a little bit of a morbid fascination. When 327 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: you have a decomposing remain, it's not like you could 328 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: just pick the body up and move it. You know, 329 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: as you would with someone who had just recently died, 330 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: like if you would take a body to the morgue. 331 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: So you have a liquefied body. So I mean, are 332 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: you taking six inches of dirt underneath? Are you taking 333 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: this by the shovel? Do you slide something underneath? How 334 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: do you recover a body at that point that is 335 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: so severely decomposed and then on top of that, you're 336 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: worried about finding all of the pieces of this body 337 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: that may have been dispersed by an animal. Yeah, you know, 338 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: one of the one of the scriptors I constantly fall back, 339 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: fall back to as an as a former investigator and 340 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: a teacher. Now is I like to use the idea 341 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: of a wagon wheel hub and the body as it 342 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: is concentricy located, is the hub of that event. And 343 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: you start there, and you know, you raise an interesting question, 344 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: and people have asked me this in the past. How 345 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: do you get everything up? Because there's there's all kinds 346 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: of tails out there about what people you know, what 347 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: happens when you try to remove severely decomposed bodies. You know, 348 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: you hear stories about, you know, folks talking about, you know, 349 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: how bodies are pulled apart and that sort of thing. 350 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: I've even heard people say, well, bodies explode, you know, 351 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: because they're full of gas. And I've had, you know, 352 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: people tell me I had a body blow up, and 353 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen. They leak air many times if there's 354 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,959 Speaker 1: still enough of the body intact, and we can go 355 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: into that in greater detail another time. However, you are 356 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: talking about visible skeletal remains, so you have to be 357 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: very very careful. And many times what we would do, 358 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: particularly when we suspect that there's foul play, perhaps maybe 359 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: a gunshot wound, is that the majority of the body 360 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: and you can kind of zero in where the body 361 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: was initially because there will be what's referred to as 362 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: a grease thing on the ground, and that is you know, 363 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: you mentioned the term liquefying. As the fat of the 364 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: remain begins to render down, it will seep down into 365 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: the ground beneath the body, and it leaves the only 366 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: way to really describe it, leaves an area that almost 367 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: looks as though someone has taken gasoline and poured it 368 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: over that area and set that grass area on fire. 369 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: It's that dark. But that's that's the staining from the 370 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: fat liquefying. What you would do first before you ever 371 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: move the body is you would run a metal detector 372 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: over that area just to make sure if there is 373 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: any metallic body, you're documented it and the approximate location that. 374 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: So before you ever touch the remain itself, you would 375 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: sweep the area with a metal detector, which all crimes 376 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: and units essentially carry one now used to they didn't, 377 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: and you would pinpoint where say metallic objects are like 378 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: bullets or bullet casings, or tips of knives or just anything. 379 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: You document that before you move the body. Then many 380 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: times what we would do is you as best you can, 381 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: you try if there's any if there's any connective tissue 382 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: left and the body is still you're still capable of 383 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: rolling the body up on its side, you begin to 384 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: scoot a body bag beneath the remain and then kind 385 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: of roll it back into it. Once that's accomplished, you 386 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: pick those remains up, place them onto a gurney, and 387 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: move them away over to the side, and then you 388 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: take the same metal detector and sweep over that area again. Well, 389 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: one of the reasons you're doing that is you want 390 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: to make sure that you're collecting any metallic bodies that 391 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: may have fallen out of the body or something that 392 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: was previously noted and it didn't leave with the body. Okay, 393 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: then with decomposing remains like this, you're gonna treat it 394 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: like an excavation before you've ever touched the body. You'll 395 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: grid this area off and you'll assign separate grid areas 396 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: to say the area of the shoulder if you can 397 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: still appreciate where the shoulder may have been, say the 398 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: left shoulder, of the right shoulder, of the head, that 399 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and any kind of bony fragments they're there. 400 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: You know, we talked about how animals play a part 401 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: in this, and kind of carrying away remains one of 402 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: the factors that also plays into this. Where you have 403 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 1: skeletal remains, are severely decomposed remains, where great trauma has 404 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: been inflicted upon a body, what will happen is that, say, 405 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: for instance, in the case of a skull, a skull 406 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: will fragment. Okay, it's not going to be totally intact. 407 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: The skull is rather robust actually, and will remain intact 408 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: for a long period of time. But let's assume that 409 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: a skull has been tremendously traumatized, and that large frontal 410 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: bone where our forehead is has been essentially fragmented. Those 411 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: little bits of fragmented bone now become dislodged and disassociated 412 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: with the body, and that's one of the first things 413 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: that animals going to go after. Well, the problem with 414 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: that is this, if there were shot in the forehead, 415 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: for all, you know, that bony prominence that the raccoon 416 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: or the possum or the wild dog is walking away 417 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: with might actually contain the bullet hole the defect that 418 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: will give us indications of things like powder and range 419 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,239 Speaker 1: of fire and angle of travel the bullet and all 420 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So you have to be very 421 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: very careful, not just in the immediate at that hub 422 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: of that wagon wheel I mentioned, but then kind of 423 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: radiating out, you like the spokes on the wagon wheel, 424 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: where you're going in all different directions, looking for locations 425 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: where animals may take things back to their burrow and 426 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: hang onto them for a while, because what they all want, 427 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: what all of these animals want from bone in particular 428 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: is protein, because it's rife with protein, and you can 429 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: the animal can go in there and begin to chew 430 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: down into the mirrow and that sort of thing, and 431 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: that's with animal values in that bone. Okay, I'm gonna 432 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: ask you a kind of a gross question, Joe. We 433 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: have all watched the forensic television shows where an animal 434 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: has eaten part of a body, and they all talk 435 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: about scat. Is that something that you actually look for 436 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: when you find a body. Yes, Yes, scat of the 437 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: freckle remnant that's left behind by the animal. And I've 438 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: had cases famously. I wrote an entire chapter about a 439 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: case that really impacted me in my memoir Blood Beneath 440 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: My Feet, about a lady that had been consumed by 441 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: her five dogs. She had been locked up in the house, 442 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: and we had to do quite a bit of scat 443 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: examination in that case because we didn't have a cause 444 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: of death for her. All we knew is that we 445 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: had a lady that been locked up in the house 446 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: for four months. She had been locked up with her dogs, 447 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: and she was deceased, and there was no soft tissue, 448 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: hardly left at all. So the dogs had gone into 449 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: a separate area of the home and they had left 450 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: quite a bit of scat and had to go through 451 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: each bit of remnant in there looking for elements of 452 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: the body, bone, teeth that were consumed of course not 453 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: chewed up, but that would pass through the animal's body. 454 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: So yet that is a real thing, and and it's 455 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that we do if you can 456 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: find those locations. You know, animals, you know, they many 457 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: times will not defecate near their borough. They actually have manners. 458 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: They will go to a more sequestered location off trail 459 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: and you know, past their waiste in that area and 460 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 1: then returned back to their home. Even even animals understand 461 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: that you know about their biology, that it's not a 462 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: good idea to have it near. So you have to 463 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: look at kind of peripheral areas as well if you're 464 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: still looking for for remains. So yeah, that is a 465 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: real thing, Jane, as a medical legal death investigator, you know, 466 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: intact remains, I think it goes without seeing are It's 467 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: it's so much better to work with those as opposed 468 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: to skeletal remains, because you know, our indications for things 469 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: that we're looking for, like trauma bodies or sponsor trauma, 470 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things is many times tied up 471 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: in soft tissue. The soft tissue remain, you know, and 472 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: it gives us an indication of what kind of trauma 473 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: the person sustained in life, in their anti mortem state 474 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: or even their perimorpims state, were the kind of headed 475 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: toward death. In lorenzen Rights case, there was very little 476 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: soft tissue that was left behind. The investigators in his 477 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: case became heavily reliant upon an examination of skeletal remains. 478 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: You were talking about using a metal detector over the 479 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: scene to just define any metal particles that needed to 480 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: be picked up. So I'm wondering, given the state of 481 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: lorenzen Rights body when it was discovered, would they have 482 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: immediately been able to tell that he had been shot 483 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: five times? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can. And actually 484 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: you can appreciate it at the scene to a certain degree. 485 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: You know, if you go back to, say, for instance, 486 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: the skull, you huh, it's pretty easy to get an 487 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: idea if the skull has been traumatized because it's so 488 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: glaring that the what we referred to as the external 489 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: table of the skull, which is essentially external surface of 490 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: the skull, can greatly be appreciated even at at the scene. 491 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: And I think that they did appreciate that then, but 492 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: they knew that it would require further examination. And just 493 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: to kind of give you an example, when they finally 494 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: did get Lorenzen's remains back to the morgue, the you know, 495 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: an examination was conducted a skull and they determined right 496 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: then and probably the way they did this is that 497 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: they took the skull individually and X rated and it's 498 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: because of that that they found a bullet jacket within 499 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: the skull. And the jacket is kind of this copper 500 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: outer shell that will in case the lead core of 501 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: the bullet kind of holds it together. And many times 502 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: this this copper jacketing will peel back off of the 503 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: bullet and it's left behind. You might have the actual 504 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: projectile that will pass on through the skull, but that 505 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: copper jacket will be left behind, and you'll find many 506 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: times sometimes it will be completely intact, and that goes 507 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: to the type of ammunition you know that you're looking at. 508 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: In any particular case, the jackets are very important because 509 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: they will have rifling marks on them so that we 510 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: can do ballistic studies. And in his case, they did 511 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: in fact find a bullet jacket in his in his skull, 512 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: and also there were and some of the decomposed soft 513 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: tissue of the chest. They found two projectiles in there. 514 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: The thing about it is you've got multiple gunshot wounds 515 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: that Lorenzen had sustained in life, and that brought about 516 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: his death. And I think one of the biggest questions 517 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: you you you know you talked talked just a second 518 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: ago about the the issue with the metal detector. One 519 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: of the things that kind of haunts you as an investigator. 520 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: You know, you're scratching your head over and you're thinking, 521 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: did I get everything? And you don't want to release 522 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: the scene too early in a case like this, in 523 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: case you miss something. You know, I've been out, I've 524 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: been back out and we do what are called retro 525 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: scene visits. I've been out to scenes where homicides had 526 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: taken place and there was a partial excavation at that moment. Time, 527 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: you still think I'm missing something, and you'll go back out, 528 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: maybe you and one of your colleagues or maybe a 529 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: team of colleagues, and you'll sweep the area again. And 530 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: it's amazing what you can find when you go back out, 531 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: because you know, you get distracted sometimes when there is 532 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: a body there, because everybody's focused on the body. And interestingly, enough, 533 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: it's important to look at the periphery. And one little 534 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: anecdotal thing that has always stuck with me in my 535 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: entire life. I read a book many years ago by 536 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: Dr Toma Gucci and was the chief medical examiner corner 537 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: for l A and Dr Nagucci, who is one of 538 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: my forensic heroes. He stated he actually did he was 539 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: actually physically at the scene at the Sharon Tate homicide. 540 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: One of the things that one of the things that 541 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: Dr Negucci had had brought forward in his writing. He said, 542 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: I learned at an early age as a death investigator 543 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: to not focus on the body when I initially arrive 544 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: at the scene. And that seems counterintuitive, doesn't it. What 545 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: Dr Nagucci said that he would do if he was 546 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,719 Speaker 1: in a room is he would look at the ceiling, 547 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: he would look at the walls, he would look at 548 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: the surrounding area of the furniture, anything. He would avert 549 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: his eyes from the body as long as he possibly could. 550 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: And what this did, this practice that he did, it 551 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: really centered himself in this environment so that the body 552 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: was not the most important item that was there. He's 553 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: looking for other peripheral issues before he gets distracted by 554 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: the body. And that's really tough to learn as a 555 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: as a young death investigator, but it's certainly something you 556 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: need to learn. I'm wondering, Joe, and finding a body 557 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: that has been shot, obviously suicide is a consideration that 558 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: has to be made. However, the likelihood that someone shot 559 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: themselves five times is unlikely depending on where they were shot. 560 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: But I'm wondering if you when you have a decomposed 561 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: body like this, the hands are not intact, so you're 562 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: not looking for GSR for gunshot residue on the hands. 563 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: But is their forensic testing done looking for gunshot residue? Oh? Yeah? 564 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: And in the beauty the beauty if if we can 565 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: say that term, I hate that that term associated with 566 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: Lawrensen's case, but it actually helped is the fact that 567 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: his clothing was still there, Jackie. When they when they 568 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: did the examination of his body, they were able to 569 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: take each piece of clothing and examine it thoroughly, and 570 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: just that initial examination they they could appreciate that there 571 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: were defects in the shirt where they could see that 572 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 1: around had possibly passed through there, not just one, but 573 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: you know, but but several and so you know, when 574 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: you think about I'll tell you, you know, because we 575 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: talked about this a lot on Nancy Show. You know, 576 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: we talked about range of fire, don't we, you know, 577 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: And she loves to go into the descriptive of using 578 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: the water hose and the dispersement of powder and all that, 579 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: and it's a beautiful description. But when you look at 580 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: a piece of clothing as opposed to having skin, the 581 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: clothing many times will be more resilient. In this case, 582 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: it was, and it was a great indicator as to 583 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 1: either a presence or absence of a remnant that's left 584 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: behind by gun being fired. And is there anything there 585 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: to give us an indication as to range of fire, 586 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: because you know, once you move out, these numbers vary. 587 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: They're not necessarily static. But many people will say, if 588 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 1: you're out any further than eighteen to thirty six inches 589 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: away from the body, a lot of this is gonna 590 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: be caliber dependent, the load dependent, and just relationship wise, 591 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: physical relationship wise, you're not gonna see anything the closer 592 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: and you get you're gonna have this this stamping that 593 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: kind of takes place with all this debris that blows 594 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: out of the end of that muzzle. You know, the 595 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: bullet is very important. The projectile hate using term bullet, 596 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: but the projectile itself, that thing that's going down range 597 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,439 Speaker 1: that's going to end somebody's life. But also people don't 598 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: understand there's all kinds of debris that comes out of 599 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: the end of the barrel. You know, you've got fire 600 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 1: from from this tiny explosion that's going on. You've got 601 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 1: smoke that comes out and that can deposit. You've got 602 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: grease and people say grease. Yeah, yeah, you can have 603 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,720 Speaker 1: grease stains. And that comes because when projectiles are put together, 604 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 1: they're crimped. So you've got the lead projectile, it goes 605 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: into the case and and it's actually crimped, and what 606 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: they will do is they will smear a little bit 607 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: of grease along the interim of that case, and that 608 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: ensures that this thing is lubricating. It's gonna exit. Okay, 609 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: So you'll get greece many times, and then you'll get 610 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: unburned powder, and some people refer to this in different terms. 611 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: You'll have stipling, you'll have tattooing, all these sorts of things. 612 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: So you've got all of these myriad of factors that 613 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: play in. So if you have clothing that's available, even 614 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: in spite of the fact that you've got this decompositional 615 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: event going on, the clothing is gonna help you. It's 616 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: going to give you an idea of what may have happened. 617 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: So obviously, at this point the investigation turns to who 618 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: could have killed Lorenz and Right. Ultimately, Lorenzen Wright's wife, 619 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: shiff and Billy Turner, someone known to both of the Rights, 620 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: and Jimmy Martin are charged in connection with Lorenzen's death. 621 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: But here's the problem or the issue. The weapon used 622 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: to killed Lorens and Right was not found for seven years, Joe. 623 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: And when it was found, it had been underwater for 624 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: seven years. What do you do? You have to treat 625 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: it very carefully depended upon you know. Look, if you've 626 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: got a weapon that has been deposited, say, for instance, 627 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: in saltwater, even brackish water, good luck, because it's gonna 628 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: be very very difficult to get to getting kind of 629 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: ballistic evidence out of that because saltwater environments are so 630 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: very harsh. But that's not what we're talking about here. 631 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: We're talking about a freshwater pond. So depended upon the 632 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: skill level and the condition of the weapon, that's brought 633 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: into the farm's examination unit, which you know, in this 634 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: case would have been up there in Tennessee where this 635 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: was perpetrated. The question is are you able to get 636 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: a specific forensic tie back to that weapon? Is it 637 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: so compromise because the weapon is going to rust, it's 638 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: going to break down, it's sitting down there probably. You know, 639 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: I don't know of any single pond in Mississippi, and 640 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: you know that area of Tennessee and over in the 641 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: Arkansas and Louisiana, all that area adjacent to to the 642 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 1: Mississippi River that doesn't have a bottom. It's just mud, 643 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: and so it's not the best environment to preserve a 644 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,479 Speaker 1: weapon in. So, yeah, it can be greatly compromised. And 645 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, beyond that, beyond like a ballistic signature, if 646 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: you will. One of the most important things also is 647 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,720 Speaker 1: to try to recover serial number off of that weapon. 648 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: And you know, the technology is advanced so far now 649 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: that you know it would be I'm not gonna say 650 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: it's an easy task, but it's much easier than it 651 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: used to be to be able to pull that number 652 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: off of a weapon. And people think, well, I don't 653 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: know what people necessarily think but I think that there's 654 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: this kind of idea that you have one one serial 655 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,959 Speaker 1: number on a weapon, all right, and that's not the case. 656 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: You'll have serial numbers that are stamped in various locations 657 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: depended upon the manufacturer that weapon throughout the weapon, and 658 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: can you recover it, and if you can recover that 659 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: serial number, then you can begin to pair that up 660 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,800 Speaker 1: with individuals. Certainly, you can pare it up to where 661 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: that weapon left what factory and at what date, and 662 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: then maybe where it was sent to be sold, you know, 663 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: and then potentially who it was sold to. And so 664 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: that's that's also a big issue that you're looking for 665 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: because you know, at the end of the day, the 666 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: weapon is very specific. It's specific to an individual it 667 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: has you know, and back to forensics specifically, we have 668 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: a construct with in forensics that's called individualization, and that 669 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: is that an item, whether it be a spoon, state knife, 670 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: or you know, a semi automatic pistol, it has individual 671 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: characteristics that can be tied back to that item and 672 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: to whatever trauma it might have inflicted upon somebody, and 673 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: it makes it unique. Even if say, for instance, in 674 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,760 Speaker 1: the example of of of firearm, even if it's made 675 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: in some great big batch of similar weapons are exact 676 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: weapons from a manufacturer. Each one of those weapons that 677 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 1: rolls off the line is going to be unique even 678 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 1: before it's fired. And then you begin to think about 679 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 1: things like how was it cared for? How many times 680 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: were rounds pushed through it? Did you use cheap ammunition 681 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: with it? Did you use expensive ammunition? Did did you 682 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: know what you were doing when you took the weapon 683 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: apart to clean it? So those each marker along that 684 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: continuum is a point of individualization that makes that that 685 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: weapon quite unique. But it's important to have recovered it, 686 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: and they would not have recovered it had I think it. 687 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: SHARE's cousin Jimmy. He he stated that, you know, he 688 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: helped dispose this weapon. They deposited that weapon on the pond. 689 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: You were talking about specifics, Joe, And one of the 690 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: things that we talk about all the time are the 691 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: gun striations that come from the barrel of the gun 692 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: that show up on the bullet when it's been fired. So, 693 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: when you have a weapon that's been underwater like this 694 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: and you brought up the rusting, do you get to 695 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: a point or can you get that barrel back to 696 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: a point where you can match striations. I mean, can you, 697 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: you know, insert something down to it to say, oh, 698 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: look there's the striation, you know, the mark that we 699 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: see on this bullet or is it at that point 700 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 1: is all of that information just lost? I'll put it 701 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: to this way. Ballistics people are are some most fascinating 702 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: individuals within the forensic science community. And the reason they're 703 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: fascinating is that they still work on an old, almost 704 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: a medieval principle. When they're training, they actually become apprentices. 705 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how much education you have, formal education 706 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,479 Speaker 1: like a master scure in forensic science, and doesn't matter 707 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,799 Speaker 1: if you're gonna be a ballistics examiner, you're gonna start 708 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: off as an apprentice. You would not want to turn 709 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: this job over to an apprentice. This would have to 710 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: be a master, a master farms examiner that would be 711 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: able to go in because this is the problem that 712 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: you run up against if you're trying to clean the 713 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: weapon to the point where you can examine it, because 714 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: it's not just like this thing is gonna be cleaned 715 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 1: and restored and go up on your shelf, or you're 716 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: gonna display friends, or you can go out and use it. 717 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: And that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking 718 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,879 Speaker 1: about a scientific examination of this thing so that if 719 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,919 Speaker 1: I match it up with the bullet or with the projectile, 720 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,640 Speaker 1: will it stand up in court? Because I can tell 721 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: you any defense attorney worth their salt is going to 722 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: stand up and say, well, what procedures did you go 723 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,240 Speaker 1: through to clean this weapon or to get the weapon 724 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: back to where it's still functional, and how was that conducted? 725 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: What what did you do in order to assure that 726 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: you didn't compromise the structural integrity of this weapon when 727 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 1: you're trying to remove all the oxidation and everything off 728 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,880 Speaker 1: of it. And it's a very very fine line. You 729 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: really have to know what you're doing, and you can't. 730 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: This can't be your first time out of the gate. 731 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: If you're going to do this, you have to have 732 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: done this multiple times and done it under the supervision 733 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: of journeyman or master before you get it to the 734 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: point where it's going to be acceptable in court. Ultimately, 735 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: you're right. Pleads guilty to two charges. She takes a 736 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 1: plea deal facilitation of first degree murder and facilitation of 737 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: attempted first degree murder, and she was considered the mastermind 738 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:43,760 Speaker 1: of this murder. She is still currently in jail. Hey Jackie, 739 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: that's not all. And you know we we have to 740 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 1: consider you know, this, this the pain that this family, 741 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: that Lorenzen's family and friends and all the folks from 742 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: Memphis have gone through over all of these years. I 743 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: think that finally the door has been closed on on 744 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,959 Speaker 1: this case because as of July eighth, I think Billy 745 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: Ray Turner was finally sentenced on a Friday to life 746 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,880 Speaker 1: in prison plus twenty five additional years for for killing Lorenzen. 747 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 1: You know, he he had a hand in this and 748 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,879 Speaker 1: brought about the death of Lorenzen after he had entered 749 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,479 Speaker 1: into a conspiracy with Lorenzen's ex wife share So now 750 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 1: he's going to be serving out the rest of his 751 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: life in jail. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 752 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: body Backs.