1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing. 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: June fifth is the fiftieth anniversary of the assassination of 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Robert F. Kennedy, a wound to this country so deep 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: that were still assessing the impact. Dawn Porter is a 5 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: documentarian who has just made an important contribution to that 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: effort analyzing the assassination, but more importantly R F. K's 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: life and legacy. She dives into the controversy surrounding the 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: trial of the man eventually convicted of Kennedy's murder, Sir 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: Hans Sir Hahn, including witness tampering and destruction of evidence. 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: And she went through hundreds of hours of a b 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: C news footage that hadn't been seen since the sixties, 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: conducted dozens of interviews with Kennedy's friends and associates, from 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: Marian Wright Edelman to Harry Bellafante. What emerges is a 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: fresh portrait of a man destined to change the course 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: of history, whether it's the problems of violence, whether it's 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: a problem with justice, whether it's the problem that we 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: haven't Vietnam. We can do things, we can accomplish things, 18 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: we can make progress. Porter's previous work has racked up 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: awards at Sundance and Emmy nomination and much more. Particularly 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: impressive given how brief her filmmaking career has been so far. 21 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: She was a big shot corporate lawyer before she ever 22 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: got the creative bug. You came to this work as 23 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: a documentary filmmaker later in your life, I did. Was 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: that an advantage a disadvantage of both? I think it 25 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: was a big advantage. I was less romantic about it, 26 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: and I used my background as a lawyer and all 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: my contacts in entertainment. So I had worked for ABC News, 28 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: I'd worked for A and E Television during your legal career, 29 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: during my legal career, and you got to kind of 30 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: see the business side of film. So I spent a year, 31 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: by my last year at any going to film conferences 32 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: and documentary It's like a little Harry Potter world of 33 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: documentary people. We all go around to different conferences and 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: talk to each other. Um. So I went to a 35 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: bunch of those conferences and I saw like what people 36 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: were buying, what people were doing, state of the market, 37 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: that kind of thing before I even had a film 38 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: what So that would have been about two thousand, let's 39 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: see seven eight. Yeah, and it was a really interesting 40 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: time in documentary. Yeah. We had like reality TV on 41 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: television and uh, you know, the documentary film world was intense, 42 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: but the market was opening up and more films were 43 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: starting to get produced. Um. So you know, my background 44 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: is my father was a photographer. UM worked in New 45 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: York City and kind of photography. He was commercial photographer, 46 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: so he had UM I don't know if you ever 47 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: been like all the way on the East Side and 48 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: the fifties, there are those old carriage houses and that's 49 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: where his studio between First and Second So it was 50 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: way over like you know that kind of like East 51 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: End area, And so when I was little that I'd 52 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time there, like literally the floor 53 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: was cobblestones, tall ceilings, those big white doors. That's where 54 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: his studio was, and like film chemicals, you know. Um. 55 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: So I had come from this kind of artsy family background. 56 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: So I became a lawyer. Yeah, I was like, I 57 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: want a real job. Arts what I did with my 58 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: father's for fun like some people do sports. We used 59 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: to make thirty five millimeter films. But it's interesting to 60 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: me how you go to Swarthmore. You go to a 61 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: you go to a great school, you go to a 62 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: great law school, you go to Georgetown Law School. You are, 63 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: in mafia terms, a made guy. You're made, You're totally made, 64 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: and you're gonna have a You're gonna have a legal career, 65 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: and you proceed to get a book of matches and 66 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: burn that to the ground going to that lucrative documentary 67 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: filmmaking career of yours. But my point is, was there 68 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: a moment when you turn around you go, I'm gonna 69 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: go do that? What was the transition? Um? What it 70 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: really was was during my time at ABC, my job 71 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: network standards. What we did is we would read scripts 72 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: for long form investigative stories, UM. And we would also 73 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: ABC News. You know, so if somebody's going to do 74 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: a hidden camera reporter, which shows all of them, I 75 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: mean for primarily but long form hour specials, UM, anything 76 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: that was like complicated hidden hitting cameras. You know, Nightline 77 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: was so buttoned up. We rarely had to not buttoned up, 78 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: but they were really really really really really buttoned up. 79 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: But so you know, the other piece of it was 80 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: sitting in edit rooms. I probably have watched thousands and 81 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: thousands of hours of news stories, and when you watch 82 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: a really good reporter and editor working a other, it's beautiful, 83 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: Like they take something complicated and they make it comprehensible. 84 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: And I was really impressed with that. In some ways, 85 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: that's what lawyers do, right, We tell a story with 86 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: a set of facts. We have to make something comprehensible. 87 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: So the skills matched up. Um. But then the problem 88 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: was I was kind of at a high level at ABC, 89 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: and I was like, nobody's going to hire me to 90 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: produce anything because I don't know how to do anything. 91 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: But um, it's like Bob Iger saying he wants to 92 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: go run to the Caribbean. That's right. Were you also 93 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: compelled from the working to look at a lot of 94 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: footage and a lot of programs out of footage. So 95 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: we would watch, you know, the producers would put together 96 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: a whole rough cut of something, and sometimes I would 97 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: watch the raw tape and watch the interview because, as 98 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, you can cut things and make them look 99 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: a certain way. And I always like, really appreciated that, 100 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: appreciated watching how this long interview got cut down or something. 101 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: And our job was to make sure that it was fair, 102 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: that it accurately represented and I took it really seriously, 103 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, like like being a journalist and coming to 104 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: giving people their best shot. Like that's what I learned 105 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: in that job is if you give people their best shot, 106 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: even if you disagree with them, they will respect you 107 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: if if they know that you didn't try and manipulate 108 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: and make them look a certain way to make the present. Yeah, 109 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: let them make their case. Let me ask you this though, 110 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: that as a young woman and you're in college and 111 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: so with Swarthmore, and so what was film? And what 112 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: was documentary film? And you're a you're a fan. Were 113 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: you consuming some of stuff? Are you kidding? I'm at Swarthmore, 114 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: I'm like dressed in black, and you know, I didn't smoke, 115 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: but I might as well, you know, fake smoked like 116 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: a candy cigarette. I was more interested in in political 117 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: theory under political science and philosophy, so other very marketable skills, 118 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: you know. I was obsessed with ancient political theory. I 119 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: thought I was going to teach fire. You're just number 120 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: one with a bullet um. I and I really the 121 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: only reason I didn't go to graduate schools because I 122 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: learned that you would have to read, write, and translate, 123 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: not just Latin, but ancient Latin. And I thought, I 124 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: don't really actually want to do that. Um, But like 125 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: I just I was like, say, this has to stop somewhere. 126 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: But you know, I had like this really formative mentor, um, 127 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: great teachers who really loved diving into materials and into stories. 128 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: I've never been as good a writer as when I 129 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: was in college, you know, like we just were writing 130 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: all the time. Um. And I had, in particular, an 131 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: English professor who was a big fan of Laurie Anderson 132 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: and so he would constantly like play her music. This 133 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: isn't this is what you're paying for when you go 134 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: to college. Um. Not a lot of film going, not 135 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: a lot. He would bring a lot of film into 136 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: so I took. But it wasn't a major then. It 137 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: wasn't like it wasn't on my radar screen is like 138 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: that could be a job. You know. The documentary film, 139 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: as you well know, has become, for lack of a 140 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: better word, so much more popularized than it was ten 141 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: years ago. It has you know when I started, and 142 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: it was roughly ten years ago, um, you know started 143 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: really focusing getting interested. Um. You know that coincided with 144 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: reality television. Quote unquote reality. Um. And then as reality 145 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: became less real, and also as things got faster and 146 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: quick cuts, and yet yea yeada. I think people actually 147 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: like sinking into a story. And that's what good documentaries do, 148 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: they don't, you know, They let you spend some time 149 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: um with a subject, and they also let you It 150 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 1: goes back to my ABC time at least like for me, 151 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: I feel like what I love to do is is 152 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: bring as as much of the story you know, to 153 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: an audience and let them enter it where they will 154 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: and judge it how they will, you know, instead of 155 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: like hitting people over the head with something like let 156 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: them enter a subject and think about it for a 157 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: little while. So was there a moment when you what's 158 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: the moment when you said I'm gonna do this'n make 159 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: a film? Um? I mean part of it was meeting 160 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: I met these young public defenders. Um. When I was 161 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: in law school, I did clinics to represent victims of 162 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: domestic violence, and my husband he did the criminal defense clinic. 163 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: So I was like, your clients are beating up my clients, 164 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: they should stay locked up forever. Very unswarthed wory. And 165 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: then I got introduced to these public defender people, and 166 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: I went to there. They have this training session in Alabama, 167 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: so they were like, do you want to come see 168 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: our training session? So I said, sure, I want to 169 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: go to Alabama in July. But I get down there. 170 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: You know a lot of lawyers are not necessarily happy people. 171 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: They're not happy in their jobs, right. And I get 172 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: down there and these young kids in their twenties, the 173 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: representing people accused of terrible times, and they make no 174 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: money and they're happy as can be. They cannot wait 175 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: to get to work, and I kind of got teary, 176 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: and I thought like, this is kind of what it's 177 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: supposed to be like when you go to law school. 178 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: You think you're going to help the people. So I 179 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: just got curious about them. So that was I was like, 180 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, I think as a lawyer, I can help 181 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: translate some of the legal stuff. So at that moment, 182 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: I was like, this should be something. So my first 183 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: film is called Gideon's Army. Um it's on HBO. I 184 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: didn't know that it was going to be a future 185 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: film or short or whatever, but it should be something. 186 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: Who do you go to? Sheila? And we had her 187 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: on the show too. Yes, Yes, Sheila Evans for our listeners, 188 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: who's the head of HBO documentaries? Were you? Were you 189 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: in pitching to her? Eventually, so I got one of 190 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: the best producers in documentary, Julie Goldman, and Julie had 191 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: worked with HBO a lot, and she said we should 192 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: go to Sheila. So I'm like, great, we should go 193 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: to Sheila. So we went to show her some footage 194 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: and the first thing she says is it's not very cinematic, 195 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: is it. It was like, Hi, nice to meet you. 196 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: But you know, Sheila really is a genius. And she 197 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: said your film is all heart, and she just kept 198 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: pushing us to find the heart of the subject. Don't 199 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: make this a news story. Make it about the people 200 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: and what people go through. And so, you know, HBO 201 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: bought it before we had a rough cut and then 202 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: it goes to Sundance. That's your first film. What did 203 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: you What did you learn from making your first film? 204 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: Like when it was over, did you say to yourself, 205 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: Oh god, you watched the movie and say, oh God, 206 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: I wish I had done this. I mean, I'm assuming 207 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: it's a learning experience. Oh yeah, Oh my goodness. It's 208 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: so what did you get right? And what got by you. 209 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: One thing I learned is you tend to fall in 210 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: love with your characters, and um, you have to be 211 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: not so romantic you you really have to actually be 212 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: true to the story. I learned that I can't fix 213 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: everything I want to fix. We interviewed this kid and 214 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: he was a kid who was sixteen. Um, he was 215 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: in jail. There was no evidence against this kid, like 216 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: nothing at all, but the prosecutor wouldn't drop the charges 217 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: for like nine months. He misses all that time in 218 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: high school. He's an adult jail because he's sixteen. So 219 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: finally the prosecutor says, I will drop the charges. But 220 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: in order to get out, he has to post bail, 221 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: which was three thousand dollars. And he's all excited because 222 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: he's going to get out of jail. And we're filming 223 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: this and the lawyer calls his mother and says, he 224 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: just has to post this bond and we'll get out, 225 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: and she says. There's a long pause, and she says, 226 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: how much is it? Three thousand dollars? And there's another 227 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: long pause and his mother says, I don't have it. 228 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: And you see, like the public defender who had moved 229 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: mountains to get this kid out, which she shouldn't have 230 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: had to do because there was no evidence against him. 231 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: And you know, we hang up the phone and she's 232 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: just kind of devastated it. So later on we're leaving 233 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: and I said, you know what, I'm going to bail 234 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: him out, Like I just can't. I'm like, throw it up, sick. 235 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: Here this this child who was like doing great in 236 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: school and guilty of abc legal money you have right. 237 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: So so having quit my job reduced my family's income 238 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: by half, I'm now going to bail out everybody. And 239 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: she said to me, if you're going to make this movie, 240 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: you can't do that. And I just felt like the 241 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: lowest of the low, you know. Um, but you know, 242 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: things are hard, things are and you know, you asked 243 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: what I had learned from my first film. Um, Documentaries 244 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: should also entertain and be engaging as a film. It 245 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: should stand together as a film. It's not a commercial, 246 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: it's not a news piece. Um. So there's a story 247 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: arc that has to emerge. It's a it's a very yeah, 248 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: and documentary is very collaborative. I don't edit, I don't shoot, 249 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: I don't do anything useful, So you have to work 250 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: with people who are really good. I had a great editor, 251 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: Matthew Hammachuk, who has worked with Matt Hyneman um. So 252 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: he did City of Ghosts. And I think the thing 253 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: that came from sitting in edit rooms for so long 254 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: was like pacing, you know, is so important, and the 255 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: audience is way ahead of you, right, and being respectful 256 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: of your audience, you know, like you got to move on. 257 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: The audience is way ahead of you. There, let's put 258 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: it this way. And I learned this enough from doing 259 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: thirty Rock with Tina Fee. I had this line. I'd 260 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: say we would do the scenes, and I said, you're 261 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: like a jockey, and you give the horse to stick 262 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: all the way to the end, like we drive this 263 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: scene and don't take any unearned pauses, and our audiences 264 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: with us unearned pauses. I think that that's like really 265 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: no earned bass. And then and you're going and you say, 266 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: those people that don't keep up with us, who cares 267 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: about them to begin with? But but in the films 268 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: you've made, you talk about the kind of altruistic work 269 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: that a lot of lawyers at least. I wonder if 270 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: this feel all making wound up being your chance to 271 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: do the work you didn't get to do as a lawyer. 272 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: That is perceptive and right. It's kind of like if 273 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: I were a braver person, and actually my kid because 274 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: you know, kids never miss an opportunity to don't. So 275 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: my older son said, well, if you really wanted to 276 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: make change, you'd be a public defender. And I was like, 277 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: oh man, you know, um, but it's kind of right. 278 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: But you also have to know yourself. Two boys, how 279 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: old are they? Eli is sixteen and will is fourteen? 280 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: Teenage boys. I have two teenage boys. And now you're 281 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: in San Francisco. Yes, because your husband got googled Google. 282 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: We're all Googled and we have drunk the kool aid. 283 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: We love the Google. Now you spent much time out there? 284 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: Is it a city that you were kind of disposed 285 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: towards living there? I didn't spent any time and literally 286 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: we landed. And you know, it's one good thing about 287 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: the documentary community people, I kind of I had a 288 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: Bonnie Cohen and John Shank who um just made the 289 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: al Gore film um or some friends. So Bonnie corralled 290 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: some of her girlfriends and they helped me find schools. 291 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: One of them help me get an apartment very difficult, 292 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: which is very very difficult. Um, you know, it's it's 293 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: actually very creative place and very open. They're kind of relaxed. 294 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: You know. It was good for like New Yorker me, 295 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: who you know when we were first out there, Um, 296 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: you know, I got a team getting people together, and 297 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: then uh, you know, people started packing up at five 298 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: thirty and I'm like, is it a half a day? 299 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: Like where is everyone going? Um? But it's kind of 300 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: good for us New Yorker people to slow down a 301 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: little bit, you know, although I do admit, like when 302 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: I get here, I'm like, like, people walk quickly. They 303 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: ordered their coffee quickly. My favorite expression of that was 304 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: I think it was in The New Yorker they did 305 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: an article the Study of Americans versus their European counterparts, 306 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 1: and the article was about predam and they said that 307 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: in European cities, the preda mange customer was willing to 308 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: take the pre prepared sandwich with limited options and have 309 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: more time to eat the sandwich. They and they said 310 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: in New York it was the situation was the opposite. 311 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: New Yorkers want exactly what they want and they want 312 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: to completely customize the sandwich and fast they're going to 313 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: shove it in their mouth. But anyway, now in the 314 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: first movie, you tank that career and your and your 315 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: husband's still with you, right yeah, and the kids stayed 316 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: along to the next movie is next movies called Spies 317 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: in Mississippi and it was in the fifties. The state 318 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: of Mississippi established a domestic spy agency and the sole 319 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: purpose was to undermine the CP and stop civil rights. 320 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: So it was this archive base was it was a 321 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: lot more traditional. Um it was. It was hard to 322 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: get I got the first money from Germany, you know, 323 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: like the Germans were like, we like despise, so um, 324 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: you know they never met a spy. We don't understand 325 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: what this. Um. It was funny though, because you know 326 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: they did a co production with a German company and 327 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: this is where like being a lawyer and understanding the 328 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: business worked. Like I knew there was money in Germany, 329 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: so I was like, I can do this faster if 330 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: I go to Germany first and rather than trapes and 331 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: around and in New York like trying to sell this. 332 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: But they did the color correct and like all the 333 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: black people came back really black, and I was like, 334 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: you know what, we're different colors. There's like we're all 335 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: we're all different. Um. So I did so spies went 336 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: to PBS. UM. After that, I did some I did 337 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: a short for Alex Gibney. Um beautiful. Um. This was 338 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: like one of my favorite projects ever. So he hired 339 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: I think it's ten different directors and said, pick a 340 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: story from the New Yorker and go make a be 341 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: about it. So I picked the story by Catherine Boo Uh, 342 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, one of my great great authors, and she 343 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: had written this story Swamp Nurse, and it was about 344 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: women who would go work with underage pregnant teens and 345 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: so they would work with the pregnant teen but also 346 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: stay with them for two years and basically teach them 347 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 1: how to be mothers and make sure that these girls 348 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: had health care and you know didn't repeat a cycle 349 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: of poverty and um. So this is deep Texas, like 350 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: like you know, not Austin. I mean, like you know, 351 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: the nurse I followed was an evangelical. I loved this woman. Um. 352 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: And you know, making documentaries is also really um it's 353 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: a good way to get out of our bubble. You know, 354 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: like you see people who live without plumbing. Um, and 355 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: you know who are face challenges whatever face right? And 356 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: who are are still like great mother and resilient and 357 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: happy people and um, but you know things are hard 358 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: and you know a lot of these just so. Then 359 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: my third film was about abortion providers in the South. 360 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: As my mother said, another comedy, what drives me is 361 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: what these people are. They're really brilliant and smart and 362 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: creative and they could do anything. And what is making 363 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: them day after day returned to these incredibly difficult situations. Um. 364 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: And then like Zach, curiosity that drives you? Where was 365 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: that set? So? Dr Parker was in Mississippi where there's 366 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: one abortion clinic left, and that's what kind of piqued 367 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: my interest. Um. And Parker's a man. What was his background? 368 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: Faith was how So that's the other thing I'm curious 369 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: about people. I always want to find it regardless of 370 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: their background. I've always wanted to see a program which 371 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: you wanted these doctors sit down and discuss what it's 372 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: like for them to perform that procedure. He is very religious, 373 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: grew up, you know, kind of this side of evangelical 374 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: thought he was going to be a minister. Um didn't 375 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: do abortions for the first like ten or twelve years 376 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: of his career. And then he did a post doc 377 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: fellowship and he saw all these women who were dying 378 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: from you know, trying to self induce and didn't have 379 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: medical care. And he says, he's like, I think Jesus 380 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: would want me to provide healthcare. You know, like, isn't 381 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: that what we're supposed to do? You know, the articles 382 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: about him are like the ministry of Dr Willie Parker. 383 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: He refuses to seed religious ground to people who are 384 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: opposed to abortion, and you know, he can quote you 385 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: every Bible passage about it. But you know, when you 386 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: get into abortion films, it's not like public defenders, Like 387 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: nobody cares about public offenders abortions they care about so 388 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: like I made the mistake of showing a small clip 389 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: like at a festival because I was I was trying 390 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: to raise money for the for the movie, and um, 391 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: this like anti choice group like put my picture up 392 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: on a website. Documentary filmmaker Dawn Porter, if you haven't 393 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: heard my interview with the woman who gave Porter her 394 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: big break with Porter's film, Gideon's Army goes straight to 395 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: our archive at here's the thing dot org. Sheila Evans 396 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: is a delight. Everybody says, let's do an anti Trump film. Okay, 397 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: I must get five pitches a day about let's do this, 398 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: Let's do who voted, Let's do the Democrats who voted, 399 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: Let's do the women the college graduated. Every day, there's 400 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: something here more at here's the thing dot org coming up, 401 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 1: Dawn Porter and I go deep into the weeds of 402 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: the RFK conspiracy. I'm Alec Baldwin, and this is here's 403 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: the thing. I wanted to spend a good amount of 404 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: time not talking about your current project, because I know 405 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: I'm like, Netflix is gonna fire me, no, no, no, 406 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: but meaning we could just talk about that. And I 407 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: always have the concern that we made the conversation not 408 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: about you, but about him, and you pitched it to 409 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: them when they commissioned you. How did that happen? Um, 410 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: Laura Michael Chison, who's worked with Robert Redford, produced for him. 411 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: I went to her and I was like, Laura, I 412 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: think this is a Somebody had approached me about the 413 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: fact that Sir hanster Hand was still in jail and 414 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: alive and his lawyers were trying to mount one last 415 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: effort to get him out. And I was like, that's interesting. 416 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: But I think in order to understand how sensational that 417 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: trial was and that time was, you gotta understand Bobby Kennedy, 418 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: you gotta understand his life. You know. The other thing 419 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: was Um and my Fami, Bobby Kennedy, John Kennedy. They're 420 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: really important to black people. Like black people love the 421 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: Kennedy brothers. You know, my grandmother's a picture. They eventually 422 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: loved the Kennedy brothers. By the time I came around, 423 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: they were beloved right early days maybe not so much. Absolutely, 424 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: there was there was not necessarily the guardians of the 425 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: civil rights that they became. It wasn't I think it 426 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: wasn't there top of mine. It was a process. And 427 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: so that's kind of what hooked me is is what 428 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: was that process? How did you know a guy who 429 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: he wasn't he wasn't a segregationist, he was an anti 430 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: civil rights, but it really wasn't a priority, right, And 431 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: and how does he go from that to breaking the 432 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: fast with Caesar Chavez and working with dolors. We're done, Um, 433 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: getting King out of jail. And you know, so I 434 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: was like there's a complicated story there. So we then 435 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: approach Netflix and said we thought it was a series, 436 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: um and they kind of got it, you know, pretty quickly. 437 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: There's just nothing that's more aching and more painful than 438 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: the idea of what would this country be if both 439 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: of them, or even Robert Kennedy had lived I've lived. 440 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: That ache is even deeper because they were kind of 441 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: this new light in the country. They convinced the country 442 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,719 Speaker 1: to try something new and to go in a new direction. 443 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: And having sold them on you know, we can come 444 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: together as a country. We can stop the word Vietnam. 445 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: We can there is a way to racial reconciliation. Having 446 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: sold at least half of the country on that premise, 447 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: then Kennedy's killed. You know, you look back and you 448 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: think we got Nixon, We got you know, law and 449 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: order written large. There was a guy who did a 450 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: film that's on the Internet called Evidence of Revision the Right, 451 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: so Terry Raymond Evidence of Revision. The first three r 452 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: JFK and RFK. Then the fourth is King, and the 453 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: fifth is that Jonestown was an MK ultra breathing ground. 454 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: I didn't get to Jon Jonestown and it was was 455 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: it was an mk ultra breeding ground where they were 456 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: breeding the next Sir Hans Hans was a Manchurian style. Yeah, 457 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of people who believe that there's 458 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: like a you know, the run school. There's a lot 459 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: of evidence that he did not act alone. There's questions. 460 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: We cover that in the fourth episode. Um, what do 461 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: you say about that? You know? Um, so I hired 462 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: an investigative reporter and I said, you know what, you 463 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: go at this clean, you just like read everything. Her 464 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: name's Lauren Capps and her background, Um, she's like a 465 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: Berkeley journalism you know, never met like a police report. 466 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: She didn't want to read, you know that kind of 467 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: She came back with what there's there's a lot of evidence, 468 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 1: So she went to like the old police reports, you know, 469 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: she went to the l A Archives. Um, you know, 470 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: so a lot of evidence not there in the l 471 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: A Archives because they destroyed it. They destroyed a bunch 472 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: out of the wood trimming and the bullet holes holes 473 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: all gone, um, and they said they couldn't afford to 474 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: store it. Yeah, it was really Um, it's not satisfying explanation, 475 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: you know. And it's Darryl Gates um like criminal justice system. 476 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: So um. So Lauren went and she wrote this like 477 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: exhaustive treatise and watched every film and you know, I 478 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: think the unfortunately, what we were certainly able to conclusively 479 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: determine is Sir hanser Hand had a terrible defense that 480 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: his lawyers didn't question any of the ballistics, they didn't 481 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: run down any of the alternative theories. So um, you know, 482 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: I think what that does is it allows an opening. 483 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: People don't feel satisfied by that verdict. When they look 484 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: closely at what happened, you get like all kinds of 485 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, and you know, you don't get a satisfactory answer. Um, 486 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: there's real questions. You know. The coroner in the in 487 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: the case said Nagucci said that Kennedy was shot at 488 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: a matter of inches. There's no witness that puts Sir 489 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: hanser Hand a number of inches. Nagucci. He's not put 490 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: on by the defense, he's not cross examined by the defense. 491 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: One of the most integral parts of the case the 492 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: angle of the gun, the mastoid in the back of 493 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: Kennedy said, and Sir Ham was more to the front 494 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: and to the right of him. I mean, I've I've 495 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: read all this stuff. He's not put on by the defense, 496 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: He's not cross examined by the defense, like the defense 497 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: stipulated to Sir Hans guilt. So you know what kind 498 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: of defense lawyer stipulates to guilt in the most infamous murder. 499 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: You know, the whole country is watching for this this 500 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: quote unquote trial, and that does not give you confidence 501 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: in our justice system. If you see that happening, I 502 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: can't prove there's a second gunman or you know that's 503 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: not my cross debay it. You hear you hear audio tapes, 504 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: you've heard this of the detective brow beating the woman 505 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: that was the eyewitness of the cocon at dress situation, 506 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: and you hear him like, I mean, you've never Yeah, 507 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: we interviewed her, Yeah yeah, and she's film she has. 508 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: She says the same thing today. I mean we literally 509 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: put it side by side. I found her incredibly compelling. 510 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: She was one of the first witnesses. Yeah, she was 511 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: one of the first witnesses. There was no reason whatsoever 512 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: for this young girl to make anything up. She said, 513 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: people came down the steps, they said we shot him. 514 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: I said, who did you shoot? She said, we shot 515 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: Senator Kennedy. It was a girl and it was a 516 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: guy who was Mexican American, and she's very very upset. 517 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: And if you go through, you know, so Lauren like my, 518 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, Nancy Drew girl detective goes through and she's like, 519 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: she's incredibly consistent, and you know, it also turns out 520 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: that there's like funny stuff happening with the bullets. They 521 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: do this like crazy like doctored test. This. This gentleman 522 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: in our film, Paul Shrade, who is now ninety two. 523 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: He was a labor advisor to Kennedy. UM, and Paul 524 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: was shot that day. He was the other a person 525 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: who was grievously injured, shot in the head. And he's 526 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: a James Brady. He kind of believes that Sirhan isn't 527 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: the person. But the you know, the bigger thing is 528 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: none of this is brought out of the trial. None 529 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: of this, so the jury doesn't even consider that there's 530 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: a possible alternate conclusion. So it's like, that's not what 531 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: Bobby would want. So, you know, um, the focus of 532 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: our film is Bobby Kennedy's life and legacy. But I 533 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: felt like we couldn't ignore this huge gaping question. Um, 534 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, and it feels it's very unsatisfied because it 535 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: feels like it will not be solved. And you know, 536 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: to your point earlier about Americans hate not to have 537 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: an answer, did it make you just so sad to 538 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: think about where we are now? It was excruciating. Netflix. 539 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: Um so we so what I really wanted to do 540 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: was use archive material as much as possible. So we 541 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: literally were living with footage, and from like a news 542 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: nerd perspective, it was it was kind of dreamy because 543 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: what we did is we digitized hundreds of hours of 544 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: film footage. So the networks at that time that's expensive. 545 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: By the way, it is expensive all the docs I've 546 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: worked as a consultants, they just die on paying for 547 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: that time. I have to say, like Netflix, this is 548 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: where they were a really, really great partner because I 549 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: knew from my time at ABC that there was all 550 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: this film on digitized film, like in cans in the 551 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: ABC archive. So I thought, you know, I said, you know, listen, 552 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: if we go with specific asks for like time periods, 553 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: ABC was just an upstart network trying to make its mark. 554 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: What do you do you follow the like sexy good looking, 555 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: charismatic candidate. ABC was the most recent. So they're following 556 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: Kennedy and shooting him. But what what also that that 557 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: did is you know, we had to watch it all, 558 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: so it was like living in that time and living 559 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: with Kennedy. And what you see what emerges is um 560 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: over time. Particularly you know, he doesn't start out that way, 561 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: but once he digs in, he brings the same zeal 562 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: that he brought to prosecuting a mob bosses. He brings 563 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: that same passion and zeal and energy to fighting poverty 564 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: and to saying like, we can do better than this. 565 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: You believed he cared. There's no other conclusion that that 566 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: he's doing his best. And you know, and then you 567 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: also see and I don't think this came into such 568 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: stark reality until Trump came into office, but we sincerely 569 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: believe he does not care. And you know, it's like 570 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: literally the first time, like you know, I'm like, certainly 571 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: not a reaganade or a bush ad or you know, 572 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: but um, I I did think although I might disagree 573 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: with the way they implement policy, I did believe that 574 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: they cared. You know, that that was their version of things. 575 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: And you literally see Bobby Kennedy saying to people, not 576 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: only do does he care, but you must care, Like 577 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: that's what makes us human people and that's what is 578 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: going to ultimately bring us together. That's right, and people 579 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: sign on for that, they believe that, And I think 580 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: that that's partly why you know, it's such a hard, 581 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: hard turn when he's executed and where the country ends up. Um, 582 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's such a like a blow to people. 583 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: Members of the family. Did you talk to? So I 584 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: didn't interview them. You know, I'm friends with Rory, you know, 585 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: I'd like talked to Rory about it, and I thought, 586 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: I don't think Ethel's gonna do it like the people 587 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: I would Yeah, the people I would like to talk to. 588 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: I'd like to talk to Ethel because really what we 589 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: wanted to understand where um, you know, like him as 590 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: a person, um, what kind of what he was going through. 591 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: But I thought, like, you know, I feel like we 592 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: should just make the archive interviews speak for themselves. And 593 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: then what I did is have people who worked with 594 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: Kennedy or for Kennedy. Um, so there's like firsthand kind 595 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: of people who were there, and you know that's different 596 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: than having it be your father right, So, UM, I 597 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: think that there's a certain amount of distance that is 598 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: is a little healthier there. Ums. No one speaks better 599 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: to who Kennedy was than Kennedy himself. Just stick him 600 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: out there, pretty much done, you know that. The other 601 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: thing is um, I think that that that's you know, 602 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: like you can't get enough of actually watching like Bobby 603 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 1: and Jack together with Ethel with their kids. The other 604 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 1: thing is, um, it's painful. It is still excruciatingly painful, 605 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: um for all of them. And I thought, you can't 606 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: get enough of actually watching like Bobby and Jack together 607 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,919 Speaker 1: with Ethel with their kids. The other thing is, um, 608 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: it's painful. It is still excruciatingly painful, um for all 609 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: of them. And I thought, like I don't even want 610 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: to drag them through that. Um. You know this is 611 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 1: gonna be a hard year, like for all of us. 612 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 1: He's a public figure, he's historic figure, you know. UM. 613 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I hope Rory doesn't mind me saying that, 614 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: but she's like, I can't watch all these things. And 615 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: then when when you watch the footage, like as a mother, 616 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: it was hard, Like he's so physical with his kids, 617 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 1: he was such a present, active father. You could see 618 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: how close this family was. You know, he brought his 619 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: kids everywhere. These were not kids who were lined up 620 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,479 Speaker 1: like sound of music and supposed to be seen not heard. 621 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: They were just like in it. There's the footage of 622 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: carry Um during like the crisis running out. You know, 623 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: she's yeah, She's just do you want to say hi 624 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: to carry? You know It's like no, no, I don't 625 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: want to say hi to carry right now. There's like 626 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: a whole army outside. But there was this blending of 627 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: family and seeing that, I thought, just just what a 628 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: huge loss. Dawn Porter. She advocated for ABC and A 629 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: and E. Now she advocates for the powerless through storytelling. 630 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 1: It's a good time to be a filmmaker. I picked 631 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 1: a good time. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's 632 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: the thing.