WEBVTT - New ICE Strategy at Courthouses 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.440 The Trump administration is once again appealing to the Supreme 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:15.760 Court as it tests the boundaries of the government's power 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:20.120 to deport migrants. The Department of Homeland Security is asking 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.600 the court to block a judge's order that requires the 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.680 government to give people ten days notice and an opportunity 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:31.400 to object before they're deported to places other than their 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:35.800 home countries. Joining me is immigration law expert Leon Fresco, 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.440 a partner at Holland and Knight and the former head 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:42.040 of the Office of Immigration Litigation in the Obama administration. 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:47.600 A Massachusetts federal judge ordered the government last month to 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:52.040 give people ten days notice and an opportunity to object 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:54.280 before they are sent to a country which is not 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:58.160 their home country, and he said last week that the 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.720 administration violated his earlier decisions. 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.320 Well, what happened was, this is a case where there 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.240 are a number of foreign nationals who did commit sometimes 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:13.039 very heinous crimes, and they're from Laos, Vietnam and some 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.399 other places that don't really accept people that the US 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.560 is trying to deport back to those countries. And so 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.200 the US tried to arrange a scenario whereby it could 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.640 deport those people to South Sudan as part of a 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.600 diplomatic arrangement it was having with South Sudan to free 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.800 up some issues because earlier in the year South Sudanese 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.319 people couldn't get visas to travel to the United States, 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.160 and so this was part of a global arrangement where 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.160 that would be thick and that also South Sudan would 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.559 agree to accept people that the United States was trying 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:51.320 to deport to other countries, not South Sudan. The people 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.080 who were going to be deported to South Sudan heard 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.400 about this and said, well, wait a second, I can't 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.400 be deported to South Sudan. I'm not from there. That's 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:02.680 very dangerous. It's a country in the middle of a 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.320 civil war. And so they tried to file convention against 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:10.240 torture claims. There was actually this case filed in the 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.840 District of Massachusetts, which was a habeas claim saying I 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.800 can't be deported without being given the opportunity to have 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.640 an adjudication as to whether the conditions in South Sudan 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.480 are tent amounts to torturing me, because if you just 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:25.800 drop me off there what am I supposed to do. 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.000 I'm going to start to that because you know, it's 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:29.560 not a place where you could just go and get 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:33.760 a job and start working. And so that was the claim. 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:38.040 And at that time the District Court, at the US government, 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:40.960 we're arguing about, well, how do you do these claims? 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.480 Can you do them where these people were, which is 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.519 at the moment, they're being detained in Djibouti, a different 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.080 African country where it's just sort of a military operation 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:56.120 and there's not really this ability to long term have 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.440 these folks there. There was this debate about where do 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.800 these conventions and against torture claims get decided, or do 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.079 you have to bring the people back to the United States. 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.000 The federal government didn't want to bring back the people 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.880 to the United States. It asked that they'd be allowed 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.720 to make these adjudications in Djibouti. The judge said, okay, fine, 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.880 I will let you do that. And then after that 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.000 the government said, no, wait a second, this is way 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.320 too complicated. We actually can't do it in Djibouti. And 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.440 so now the government has gone to the Supreme Court 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.200 and said, just let us do these deportations. The judge 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:34.680 shouldn't be allowed to prevent us from doing this. 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:37.920 The Supreme Court has said that the government has to 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.880 give people a reasonable amount of time in order to 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:46.920 challenge their deportations, but it hasn't spelled out exactly what 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.240 that means, how much time even. But is this situation 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.800 different from the cases that the Supreme Court has dealt 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.480 with because these migrants have already been through the immigration 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.760 system and there are orders of deep against them. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:06.080 Correct. The problem is here, these individuals have an order 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.600 of deportation that can be executed at any point to 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.800 their home country, whether it's Llows or Vietnam or whatever, 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.640 and it can also be executed to any other country 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.720 so long as in any of those other countries, there's 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.400 not a likelihood that these individuals will be tortured. And 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.839 so the question is, well, can these individuals make that claim, 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:31.560 where can they make that claim, When can they make 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.160 that claim, how long do they have to make that claim? 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:38.880 And does the district court have the ability to interrupt 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:44.159 that when a person has already been moved outside of 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:46.400 the United States. And I think that's what the debate 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:48.920 is going to be, because I think where the federal 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.599 government is concerned is what are we supposed to do 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.599 now that these individuals are in Africa? How do we 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:56.800 deal with this? Are we going to be forced to 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:00.279 bring them back to the United States or will be 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.920 forced to actually adjudicate these cases inside of Djibouti, which 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.080 is where the people are now, or can we finalize 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.440 our intentions to deport them to South Sudan? And will 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.960 there just be prophylactic language in the future about what 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.120 is required in the future if they're going to do 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.919 one of these third country deportations. But really we're in 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.360 uncharted territory here, and the Supreme Court is going to 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.720 have to set some standards and some guidelines because if 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.880 the federal government really is focused on these third country deportations, 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:34.719 then they're going to need to be done in a 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.479 manner that everybody's comfortable with. And the complication with South 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:40.680 Sudan is just imagine any of us. I mean, if 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.120 any of us get dropped off in South Sudan, what 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.000 do we do next? If there's no food, there's no job. 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:48.240 You know, if you end up being deported to a 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:52.520 place where you know that the solution is just the starvation, 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.000 does that end up violating the Convention against torture. 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:58.880 So how do you think the Supreme Court will approach 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.920 this and how it's handled the other deportation cases. 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.160 The Supreme Court is going to have to decide where 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:08.800 can these individuals make these claims? Are they allowed to 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:13.239 make these claims at all? What district court jurisdiction exists here? 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:18.719 And I don't necessarily think that the Supreme Court, given 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:20.760 what we've seen so far, is going to be too 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.360 friendly toward this concept of not being able to give 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.920 people an opportunity to make a claim that a deportation 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:31.240 of sub Sudan is tent amount to torturing. 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.960 That this case is among a growing number of instances 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:40.000 where judges are finding that the government isn't fully complying 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.920 with court orders having to do with immigration. The Supreme 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.360 Court sort of addressed that peripherally in a case blocking 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:52.359 the administration from sending more Venezuelans to a Salvador in 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:56.400 prison by referring to the case of kilmar Arbrigo Garcia, 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.359 who was wrongfully deported as a cautionary tale. But it 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:05.960 hasn't addressed that issue of not following court orders directly yet. 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.840 Right what the Supreme Court has said is at the moment, 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:14.120 we're not going to let the Trump administration deport anyone 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.960 else in the future under this Alien Enemies Act, which 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.600 is the law that the Trump administration has wanted to 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:24.360 use to deport Venezuelan from the trend A Ragua gang 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.680 to El savad or into other places without due process, 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.440 saying they're just members of this gang and that means 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.640 they can be apprehended and deported without seeing a judge. 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:36.400 And so what the Supreme Court has said, we're putting 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.080 an end to that for the moment, until the lower 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:43.280 courts can percolate a series of decisions as to a 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.560 what kind of notice is required be, what kind of 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.880 factors can be reviewed by the courts, and see is 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.960 this even constitutional, this usage of the Alien Enemies Act 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:59.560 in this particular situation. And the Supreme Court will decide 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:03.480 all of those questions, presumably in one global case, or 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:07.480 maybe it will break them up unclear. But there's that 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.480 issue with the whole framework of the Alien Enemies Act. 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.600 But now there's this new issue of well, what about 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.600 if someone does have a deportation order already, so we've 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.040 cleared that first step, but now what the issue is 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.600 is you want to send them to a country where 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.680 the country is potentially very dangerous to send that person to. 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:29.120 You know, you are allowed to send people to a 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:33.160 third country, but if that third country is dangerous, what 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:36.280 thoice do we put in this context? And does it 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.760 end up being the exact same as in the context 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.040 of the Alien Enemies Act? Are we going to do 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:44.360 the same? Are we going to do differently? What are 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.720 we going to do? And so I think again, the 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.120 Supreme Court's going to have to grapple with those issues. 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:52.920 And I know I've asked you this question several times before, 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.680 but what happened to the case of Ki or Brigo Garcia. 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.439 Well, I mean that case is still pending and the 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.040 district judge is trying to work their way through content 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.480 proceeding to try to figure out again what the government 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:12.000 is able to do to facilitate mister Abrago Garcia's return 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:15.880 to the United States. You had a congressman try to 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:20.120 visit Abrago Garcia, and that Congressman, Glen Ivy, was not 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:25.320 permitted to see a Brago Garcia. And so now we're 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:29.120 in the do or die situation where basically the District 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.400 Court is going to have to make some decisions about 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.160 doesn't want to hold the Trump administration in contempt unless 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:39.439 and until it brings Flabrago Garcia back into the United States. 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.400 And then, of course will the Fourth Circuit agree with 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.880 whatever is decided, and then finally will the Supreme Court 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:50.200 agree with whatever is decided here. But we start from 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.880 the understanding that the deportation was a mistake, and so 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.960 the question is what happens then, because what the administration 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.280 is saying is, look, if we bring him back, what's 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.200 gonna end up happening is the reason he wasn't deported 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.880 in the first place was because he feared gangs that 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.920 no longer exist in Al Salvador. So we're going to 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.920 win this case anyway. So the question is will there 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.360 be some dispensation given to having a hearing like this 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.320 outside of the United States, or will there be a 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:23.319 requirement that this individual will be brought back and given 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.440 the same hearing and then presumably removed again outside of 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:28.559 the United States. 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.760 Okay, stay with me. Leon coming up next on the 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.840 Bloomberg Lawn Show. I'll continue this conversation with immigration law 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.960 expert Leon Fresco. Ice appears to be employing a new 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:43.760 strategy that it used in arresting a high school student 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:47.240 in New York City. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:52.400 to Bloomberg. In immigration courts from New York to Seattle, 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:57.480 Homeland Security officials are ramping up enforcement actions in what 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:59.840 appears to be an effort to test out a new 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:05.440 strategy to speed up deportations. Government attorneys are asking judges 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:09.120 to dismiss cases against migrants who are there for scheduled 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:13.480 hearings and then waiting ICE agents arrest the migrants and 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:18.040 put them in expedited removal proceedings. That's what reportedly happened 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:21.600 to a New York City high school student from Venezuela 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:25.280 last week. New York City Mayor Eric Adams, who's allowed 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:29.080 ICE agents on Rikers Island, said he couldn't get involved 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.280 because New York is a sanctuary city. 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.880 Well, we have to be extremely careful because the New 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:39.320 York City Council laws. I'm limited on what coination I 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.400 can do, and so sometimes there's a blessing and it's 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:42.840 a curse. 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.600 I've been talking to immigration law expert Leon Fresco of 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.840 Holland and Knight. Leon, so this Venezuelan high school student 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:56.680 was in immigration court for a regularly scheduled hearing, and 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.199 after the case against him was dismissed, I say and 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.760 arrested him. His lawyer says, he's here legally seeking asylum, 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.760 but the Trump administration says he's here illegally. And apparently 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:10.800 this is not an isolated scenario. 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:16.040 What's happening is this, So the Biden administration had this 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:21.280 program called the CBP one app parole program, which what 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:26.240 it said was don't just cross the border illegally. That's 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.400 creating a lot of chaos on the southern border. We 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:31.959 can't have it. Go to a port of entry, get 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.440 an appointment to go to a port of entry under 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.360 the CBP one app and then if we think that 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.160 you're a legitimate asylum seeker, will parole you into the 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.800 country legally, so you have a legal status while you're 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.360 here trying to get asylum, and you'll go through the 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.760 asylum case. So what's happening now is that the Trump 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.719 administration is saying, for all those people who have been 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.679 led in legally to do an asylum case and immigration court, 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:04.920 we are going to cancel your legal admission. We're going 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:09.000 to close that case, and we're going to pretend like 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:11.920 none of that had happened, and we're going to put 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:16.440 you in expedited removal, which says that if you are 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.480 here for less than two years and you never had 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:23.320 a legal basis for coming, you can be removed on 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.800 an expedited basis. But what that requires is for the 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.680 person to be arrested and then they have to have 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.680 a new adjudication as to whether they have a credible 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:36.640 asylum case, and if they don't, they can immediately be removed. 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.600 But if they do, then they're basically back at square one, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.520 which is the same immigration court hearing that they were 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:48.319 arrested at minutes ago. So this bronze student was exactly 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.640 this situation where they were let in legally under the 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:57.719 CBP one parole app but now they're arrested, placed in 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.720 expedited removal proceedings, and. 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.880 This type of scenario is being played out in immigration 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:05.600 courts across the country. 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.360 So there's basically three goals of this. Number one is 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:14.160 maybe twenty twenty five percent of the people that they're 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.200 going to do this too won't actually be able to 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.440 show that they have a credible asylum claim. And so 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.520 with that group, they can just remove them outside of 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.560 the United States, and so that increases the removal number. 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.480 So that's goal number one. Goal number two is to 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.840 the extent people are now scared to go to immigration court. 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.680 When you don't show up the immigration court, you get 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.400 what's called an in absentia of removal order, which is 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.920 you basically lose by default. You get ordered deported and 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:45.760 that's the end of it. And as long as the 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.200 government can show that you had notice of the hearing, 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:51.720 then that did you know, Unless there was some earthquake 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.880 or some bridge collapsed or something and that prevented you 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.800 from going to the hearing that day, you're pretty much 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.200 in a bad position there. But the government, and if 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.480 they get these in absent to removal orders, can also 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:08.560 try to execute those, and that also is easier than 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.560 trying to win a removal order in a hearing. So 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.600 that's the second reason to do this is people stop 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.440 going to court, they get in upsent to removal orders, 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.000 you can deport them more easily. And then the third 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.680 is people will be so afraid about finishing this process 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.640 they'll just take matters into their own hands and go home. 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.160 And so that's really the purpose of this is to 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:33.720 create this level of fear that people either don't show 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:35.960 up the court and they get ordered deported or they 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.560 go home. But if they do go to court, they're 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:40.680 going to get arrested. If you haven't been in this 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.640 country for more than two years, what will happen is 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:48.200 you will be arrested and put into these expedited removal proceedings. 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.240 And what that will do is for some segment of 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:56.560 the people, they will be deported immediately. For a larger segment, 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:00.000 let's say seventy to seventy five percent, they will be 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.520 placed back into the same proceeding they were supposed to 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.880 go to court for that day, but after having been 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.600 arrested and detained and having to pay out a bond, 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.640 and so all of this is very scary and unsettling, 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.600 and that's part of the strategy is to impose those 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.800 kinds of conditions to make it as onderous as possible 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.120 for the people here without status to remain here. 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.080 So then will this student definitely get a hearing. 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.400 Well, so they will first have to show that they 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.720 have a credible asylum playing and of course, because the 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.840 student is from Venezuela, probably will not be that difficult, 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.440 because Venezuela does crack down on political dissidents. If this 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:44.080 person can show that they had some political oppression in 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.480 the past or they have some political issue, they can 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.600 clear that threshold, and then they'll actually have an asylum hearing, 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:53.880 which was the whole purpose of why they went to 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:54.960 court in the first place. 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.600 So now let's turn from high school to college and 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.920 graduate school. There's going to be a hearing this week 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.800 to determine whether a judge should extend a temporary block 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.200 that's keeping the Trump administration from canceling the student visas 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:15.280 of nearly seven thousand international students at Harvard. This being 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.919 part of Trump's campaign against Harvard tell us about the 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:19.680 issues here. 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.760 So basically what happened is the Trump administration has been 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:28.560 trying to get information from Harvard with regard to a 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:32.040 lot of its practices, but including also the nature of 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.359 its students that are there as foreign students and the 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.920 nature of their conduct. But the issue is that there's 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.560 a normal process where that happens. That it's called the 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:46.000 every two years recertification, and then there's an application, and 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.359 then if you want to deny the ability for students 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:51.760 to come. You have to issue an order saying you 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:56.000 intend to deny re certification, and then there's an opportunity 0:17:56.040 --> 0:18:00.480 to respond, and then there's an appeal and that essentially 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:02.679 a court case and all of that. And what the 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.480 Trump administration tried to do is to skip all of that. 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.800 And what the court immediately said was you can't do that, 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:13.680 and you'd a temporary restraining order saying you can't skip 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.000 all of those steps and just take a school out 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.000 of the student an exchange visitor program. And the reason 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:23.280 you can is because there's a lot of reliance interests involved. 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.439 There's thousands of students. They can't just all go to 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:30.000 Yale or Stanford or somewhere else because all those schools 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:34.160 have admissions processes and so you can't just transfer. It's 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.199 not that easy. And if you are one of the 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:41.000 students who's on a status called OPT, which is called 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.680 optional practical Training, which is something that allows you as 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.159 a student to work after you graduate in the field 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.399 that you graduated from. It allows you to get practical experience, 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.280 then there's nowhere you can transfer because you finished your degree. 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.840 So you could be working, for instance, right now at 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.639 Microsoft or at Google wherever it may be, or even 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.280 at a hospital or you know, doing something medical wherever 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.640 you may be, and if your status gets canceled, then 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.320 that's the end of it. Then you're here illegally. There's 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.760 nothing you can do. You have to go home. And 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:18.439 so this lawsuit actually, you know, for those people in 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:23.359 that status, that saves them from falling out of legal status. 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.520 But if that temporary restraining order is lifted, all of 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.320 those people who are in this optional practical training status 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.040 will immediately have to go home. There's going to be 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:35.920 no way for them to stay legally. They'll have ten 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.520 days to just leave the United States and then from 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:40.840 abroad to have to figure out if there's some other 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.600 visa program that can take advantage of. Similarly, for the 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.480 students who actually are at Harvard, they're going to have 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.920 to make some decisions regardless, which is do we keep 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:56.600 having to worry about injunction, go injunction? Yes, injunction lifting 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.280 it and do we want to live under that stress 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:01.960 or do we want to just transfer to some other 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.679 school or do we just want to leave the United 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.639 States period? Because this is way too stressful, and so 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:13.000 for a lot of those individuals, I don't imagine they're 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:14.920 going to want to stay at Harvard and see how 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:18.720 this ends. And so that creates a very difficult issue 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.879 for Harvard, which is that it's going to lose a 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:25.000 lot of these students even if it wins its litigation. 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:30.000 Also, Secretary of State Marco Rubio has ordered US embassies 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:36.720 worldwide to stop scheduling interviews for student visas because they're 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:43.360 weighing stricter vetting of applicants social media profiles correct. 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:48.000 So USCIS had already said this for domestic visa cases, 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.240 and now Secretary of State Rubio is trying to add 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:56.080 more meat on these bones for foreign student cases to 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.560 give people very specific guidance as to when a visa 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.000 should be denied and when a visa should be approved. 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.760 So at the moment, because that guidance doesn't exist, what 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.240 the Secretary of State said is stop scheduling new appointments 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.600 until we can get this guidance out. Everything I'm told 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.040 is that this will be shortly, so it should be 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:18.320 a week or two for this guidance to come out. 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.120 It's not going to be something that's going to ban 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.199 all students from coming in forever, but it definitely is 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.359 going to be yet one more very difficult obstacle because 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.800 in a lot of these embassies there's already a backlog 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.679 of appointments and some students never get in. So they 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.800 all need to get their visa appointment and their visa 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:40.399 by August. If they either can't get an appointment or 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.119 now they can get an appointment, but the problem is 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:47.960 their case is now taking longer to decide because everybody's 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.400 case now can't be decided at the window. It has 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:55.320 to be decided after somebody goes and looks through all 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:59.680 of their social media. Then that's going to be a 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:02.520 different process which will lead to many more students not 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:05.080 being able to enter the United States. So what that 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:08.919 leads to in practice is instead of the normal cycle 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.680 where you get admitted into school in April or May, 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:14.359 you apply for your visa and you are ready to 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.040 come in in September, it may now be that you 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:20.360 have to start school in January or maybe even one 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:25.840 year later in September of the following year, which obviously 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:29.880 then leads to making America less attractive for foreign students 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:32.720 to come study, which either is the intent or is 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:35.240 it I don't know what the intent is here. It 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:39.440 may also just be to really not have people who 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:43.359 are putting some very terrible things on their social media 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:47.040 study in the United States because they're dangerous to the country. So, well, 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.359 that's the way. And see how this is implemented in reality. 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.200 And if in reality what's happening is that the only 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.720 people excluded are people you really wouldn't want to come, 0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.920 then you know, then it's a change that is defensible 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.199 and arguable. But if it's really a change that just 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:07.120 leads to a gridlock so that no one can come 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:11.159 in the country, even if you're a student from Sweden 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:15.919 who's here to study electrical engineering or medicine, then that 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:17.840 becomes a more difficult problem. 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:21.600 Are there other countries that are popular for students? 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:26.040 Absolutely so. Students from around the world study in all 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.680