Speaker 1: Today, It's great to chat with Kristin Neff on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Kristin is currently an Associate professor of Educational Psychology at
Speaker 1: the University of Texas at Austin. She's a pioneer in
Speaker 1: the field of self compassion research, conducting the first empirical
Speaker 1: studies and self compassion almost twenty years ago. In addition
Speaker 1: to writing numerous academic articles and book chapters on the topic,
Speaker 1: she's author of the book Self Compassion, The Proven Power
Speaker 1: of being kind to Yourself in conjunction with our colleagues
Speaker 1: doctor Chris Durmer. In conjunction with our colleague doctor christ Churmer,
Speaker 1: she has developed an empirically supported training program called Mindful
Speaker 1: Self Compassion, which is taught by thousands of teachers worldwide.
Speaker 1: They co authored the Mindful Self Compassion Work Box. They
Speaker 1: co author they ca au through the Mindful Self Compassion Wow,
Speaker 1: Like why did I even say the word that way?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. I'm gonna show myself self compassion,
Speaker 1: self compression, self compassion. They co authored the Mindful Self
Speaker 1: Compassion Workbook and Teaching the Mindful Self Compassion Program, a
Speaker 1: guide for professionals. Her newest work focuses on how to
Speaker 1: balance self acceptance with the courage to make needed change.
Speaker 1: Her latest book, which I'm so excited to chat with
Speaker 1: her today about, is called Fear Self Compassion. How women
Speaker 1: can harness kindness to speak up, claim their power and thrive.
Speaker 1: Doctor Christin Neff, it is so exciting to have you
Speaker 1: on the podcast a second time. Thanks Scott, Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me back. For sure, with these long bios, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, I feel like I should practice them,
Speaker 1: you know, ahead of time or something. But really excited
Speaker 1: to have you back and to continue our discussion about,
Speaker 1: you know, your journey to understand the scientific underpinnings of
Speaker 1: self compassion. Yeah, thank you, thank you. Yeah. And I'm
Speaker 1: really excited about the new direction my work is taken.
Speaker 1: It's very passionate about it, which is a lot of fun. Awesome. Well,
Speaker 1: let's let's just dive right into this notion of fierce
Speaker 1: self compassion. Uh, And what does that mean? How does
Speaker 1: that differ from maybe more like nurturing self compassion or
Speaker 1: I don't know what you what you call the other
Speaker 1: or the other? Yeah? Well, tender tender, tender, very close. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and so just as I didn't invent the idea of
Speaker 1: self compassion, I actually learned about it from my Buddhist practice.
Speaker 1: I also didn't invent the idea of fierce compassion. So
Speaker 1: Sharon Salzburg talks about fierce compassion. For instance, the idea
Speaker 1: from this perspective is that sometimes to alleviate suffering, which
Speaker 1: is what compassion is concerned with, the alleviation of suffering,
Speaker 1: sometimes we need to be tender, nurturing and accepting. Sometimes
Speaker 1: we may need to be quite fierce, right, we need
Speaker 1: to need to take act. And this is not only
Speaker 1: compassion for others, but also self compassion. I like to
Speaker 1: call it fierce mama bear self compassion, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. So there's like gentle mother. Sometimes what we
Speaker 1: need is that unconditional acceptance and just soothing, comforting, being
Speaker 1: with ourselves in a supportive way. But then sometimes we
Speaker 1: need to protect ourselves, stand up for ourselves. So, for instance,
Speaker 1: I see the Black Lives Matter movements and the Me
Speaker 1: Too movements as self compassion movements. Any sort of social
Speaker 1: justice movement where people are saying, no, you cannot treat
Speaker 1: me this way, it's not okay. This is actually self
Speaker 1: compassion in its feerce form. Also, you know, providing for
Speaker 1: your needs, actually being willing to say no to others
Speaker 1: and say I'm sorry, I'd really love to help, but
Speaker 1: I need to take care of myself. That's actually fierce
Speaker 1: self compassion and of course motivating change. Right. So, although
Speaker 1: we can accept ourselves unconditionally, we don't want to accept
Speaker 1: necessarily all our behaviors unconditionally. Sometimes they aren't very healthy,
Speaker 1: or all the situations we find ourselves in, sometimes we
Speaker 1: don't want to accept them, we want to change them.
Speaker 1: The states are all an aspect of trying to be
Speaker 1: good to ourselves and alleviate our suffering. And I wrote
Speaker 1: the book for two reasons. One because over the years
Speaker 1: I found that people only really think of the tender
Speaker 1: cybe when they think of self compassion. They always think
Speaker 1: it give yourself a break. And you know, sometimes what
Speaker 1: you need to do is give yourself a break. But
Speaker 1: sometimes you need to kick yourself on the butt, you
Speaker 1: need to care for yourself. It really just depends on
Speaker 1: what you need at the moment. But the biggest reason
Speaker 1: I wrote it, and the reason I wrote it primarily
Speaker 1: for a woman, is unfortunately gender roles socialization really stands
Speaker 1: in the way of us being able to integrate fierce
Speaker 1: and tender self compassion. Right. In many ways, it's like
Speaker 1: yin and young, right, So yin is more the gentle feminine.
Speaker 1: Young is more that you know, consider harsh, hard powerful masculine.
Speaker 1: But the fact that we math make it masculine feminine
Speaker 1: is a problem because everyone needs both. So men are
Speaker 1: socialized against being too tender. Right, they're called sissy's that
Speaker 1: are called names if they're sensitive. That really harms men
Speaker 1: because it cuts off men from their full potential, their
Speaker 1: ability to harness the power of kindness, of tenderness, of nurturing,
Speaker 1: of care to care for themselves and others. Right, And
Speaker 1: women it's the opposite. Women aren't allowed to be too fierce.
Speaker 1: Like we like our women to be soft and sweet
Speaker 1: and nice. We don't like women when they speak up
Speaker 1: too loudly or get angry, right, And so this disempowers woman.
Speaker 1: And so it's not that women need compassion more than men.
Speaker 1: It's just that because I'm a woman, and the book
Speaker 1: would have been too complicated to say, well, from the
Speaker 1: male point of view, it works this way, and for
Speaker 1: the woman point of view works this way. So I
Speaker 1: just wrote the book for women. And also because of
Speaker 1: the Me Too movement and everything, it just felt like
Speaker 1: the time was right to speak up on this aspect
Speaker 1: of what's been hindered in the female gender role. But
Speaker 1: I really do firmly believe it harms all human beings.
Speaker 1: Talk about human potential. Human potential means realizing all faces
Speaker 1: of love and fierceness without tenderness is hostility and aggression.
Speaker 1: Look at the world we're in. But tenderness without fierceness
Speaker 1: is like complacency is not enough just to sit on
Speaker 1: your couch and be happy. You know, we got it.
Speaker 1: We got to do something and change things. So it's
Speaker 1: really about the attempt to harness both powers and to
Speaker 1: integrate both. Oh wow, I love that. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: so you think men could get something out of this
Speaker 1: book too? I do? You know, it's funny. I've had
Speaker 1: a lot of my male friends read it, and it
Speaker 1: is written for women, and I could see it might
Speaker 1: be a little, you know, a little off putting that back.
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of practices in there, and all
Speaker 1: the practices are designed to harness and cultivate both energy
Speaker 1: and so the practices will certainly serve men. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of especially men who are kind of allies
Speaker 1: to the movement, you know, they want their they want
Speaker 1: to see women fully in powered. They aren't. They don't
Speaker 1: think that patriarchy helps anyone. So if you're a man
Speaker 1: who cares about those issues or has a lot of
Speaker 1: women in your life or daughters or you know, significant others,
Speaker 1: I've had men say it really helps kind of understand
Speaker 1: what the situation is for women. You know, men don't.
Speaker 1: They don't. They don't face what we face. They aren't
Speaker 1: when they get angry. People think that men are powerful
Speaker 1: and persuasive. A woman people think she's crazy. They don't
Speaker 1: believe her when she's angry, they belittle her, and so
Speaker 1: that women get cut off from their anger, and that
Speaker 1: means it kind of goes pear shaped and it's just
Speaker 1: not really healthy. So I do think men could get
Speaker 1: a lot out of this, but I mainly I mainly
Speaker 1: wout it for a woman because the time is now.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, you know, there's there's so many
Speaker 1: there's really I think a movement around the world men
Speaker 1: standing up and saying, you know, the old way of
Speaker 1: doing things isn't working for us. We aren't just going
Speaker 1: to be helpmates. We aren't just going to be assistants
Speaker 1: the way men are. We can't just say men will
Speaker 1: be men and you know, well that's just the way
Speaker 1: men are. It's like it's actually not okay, things like
Speaker 1: sexual harassment, sexual abuse, and so I really felt that
Speaker 1: this could help in that journey. It offers really concrete
Speaker 1: tools that we can practice to help cultivate these two energies.
Speaker 1: So that's probably why I'm so excited about it. You know,
Speaker 1: the people I've talked to you just said it's really useful.
Speaker 1: It's helpful, and that's what I wanted, something that's helpful. Well,
Speaker 1: you came to the the right place. We have more women
Speaker 1: than men listeners of the Psychology podcast, believe it or not,
Speaker 1: it's like sixty forty, you know, sort of breakdown. So
Speaker 1: we have plenty of women listening to this today that
Speaker 1: will really resonate with this, I'm sure, and really a
Speaker 1: really valuable message. And yeah, I think you're doing a
Speaker 1: great thing with this book. What would you think? Did you?
Speaker 1: Did you have time to look at it? I did? No.
Speaker 1: I mean I like, well, I mean I resonated with it,
Speaker 1: and then I'm like, well, does that make me less
Speaker 1: of a man that I resonate with the fact that
Speaker 1: you even have to ask yourself that question. Screwed up
Speaker 1: general socialization? Is you know, well absolutely, I mean I
Speaker 1: mean that that's an interesting conversation itself, which is that like,
Speaker 1: is there even like, what's the utility of even saying
Speaker 1: there's masculine energy versus feminine energy? You know, That's why
Speaker 1: I like you and young can get away from it
Speaker 1: just makes you don't even have to use those drums. Yes,
Speaker 1: And that's partly why I do like them. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've been obsessed with the ying yang even like my
Speaker 1: uh my doctor yes, my doctoral uh my, my doctor
Speaker 1: dissertation was an attempt to balance out the intelligence field
Speaker 1: with the ying yang and and I had I proposed
Speaker 1: the dual process theory of human intelligence. That's right, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: this is right up your alley. You probably should you
Speaker 1: probably I'm not an expert in the Union young philosophy,
Speaker 1: so I probably made some mistakes. I don't try to
Speaker 1: be an expert. I just kind of use the metaphor.
Speaker 1: I didn't see any mistakes, so beautifully doesn't it really fit?
Speaker 1: And also agentic and communal gender roles, which is in
Speaker 1: the gender field maps on everything, like maps on this
Speaker 1: basic duality which needs to be transcended. I mean, I
Speaker 1: can agree more. I So I didn't expect to go
Speaker 1: down this this alley, you know, because I have all
Speaker 1: these prepared questions everything. But let's let's stay on this
Speaker 1: run it. Yeah, yeah, let's stay on this for a second.
Speaker 1: I you know, I don't think of like, I like
Speaker 1: just to be really personal a second. I always viewed
Speaker 1: myself as quite balanced between those two energies. That's just
Speaker 1: my uh, that's my being. I don't say that any
Speaker 1: anyone should be a certain being like that's but I like,
Speaker 1: I've always noticed that I you know, I think I'm
Speaker 1: pretty like probably fifty to fifty you know then, but
Speaker 1: I'm still a man. Yeah. So I'm trying to understand
Speaker 1: that in the sense that, like, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm still a man at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: and I'm just a man that has a pretty good
Speaker 1: sort of balance and appreciation of the benefits of both
Speaker 1: kind of things. So I suppose if I was writing
Speaker 1: a book, you know, fear of self compassion, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe my subtitle would be like, how both men and
Speaker 1: women can harness the best aspects of each other's genders.
Speaker 1: You know. Anyway, that's probably how I would have framed it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, well yeah, well so how and like I say,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you're a little unusual, and that
Speaker 1: I know, only fifteen percent of the people can my
Speaker 1: walk workshops are men, and that's because compassion is considered
Speaker 1: a female thing. It's part of the female gender. That's
Speaker 1: a shame. It's really a shame because the research is
Speaker 1: overwhelming of how useful it is in terms of you know,
Speaker 1: if you're a combat soldier, you're more self compassionate, you're
Speaker 1: less likely to develop PTSD or contemplate suicide. Right, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a strength. And so this is why I think
Speaker 1: gender socialization stands in the way. And my personal belief
Speaker 1: is every single person has their own unique balance of
Speaker 1: young and young. It's going to come out differently in
Speaker 1: different contexts. Wouldn't it be amazing if everyone's allowed to
Speaker 1: reach their full potential and express it in the way
Speaker 1: that's just right, and every single person is going to
Speaker 1: look different instead of trying to stuff people into boxes
Speaker 1: based on gender. Because I say, I really do think
Speaker 1: in terms of anyone doesn't mean that I mean like
Speaker 1: we should all be the same. You know, everyone's going
Speaker 1: to be unique regardless, but everyone should be allowed to
Speaker 1: be unique and themselves completely. It's all about self actualization,
Speaker 1: you know, completely, yeah, for sure, as well as self transcendence. Yes. Now,
Speaker 1: look we're on the same same wavelets, there's no doubt
Speaker 1: about it. Uh. I am curious, like just a nerdy question.
Speaker 1: And I remember last time you were on my podcast,
Speaker 1: like three years ago or something, I would ask you
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of nerdy questions as well. In your
Speaker 1: empirical research and the tests uvalidated, what do you what's
Speaker 1: the actual science say about the gender differences? So women
Speaker 1: have slightly less self compassion than men, it's not huge.
Speaker 1: We've done some metainal analytic work and it's very consistent, right,
Speaker 1: And the gender difference tends to be a little larger
Speaker 1: when people are younger, less than a little bit with
Speaker 1: age and also gender again, gender role identity comes into it,
Speaker 1: and that women who are androgynous who kind of identify
Speaker 1: more of the you know, on thee been sexual inventory
Speaker 1: of the masculine and the feminine, there's not a gender difference.
Speaker 1: And so you might think, well, that's strange because compassion
Speaker 1: is actually part of the female gender role, but it's
Speaker 1: because for women, they're supposed to be self sacrificing. So
Speaker 1: so what we know is that women come out a
Speaker 1: lot higher in compassion for others than men do in research,
Speaker 1: and they come out slightly less self compassionate than men do,
Speaker 1: which means the discrepancy between how women treat themselves and
Speaker 1: others is larger than men because women don't feel entitled
Speaker 1: to meet their own needs because their value comes from
Speaker 1: being self sacrificing, from being nice, from being giving right.
Speaker 1: Whereas men, even though you might say compassion is more
Speaker 1: of a you know, not part of their gender role,
Speaker 1: they feel more entitled to get their needs met, right,
Speaker 1: And so that that's and that's it's interesting that you
Speaker 1: have that dichotomy. And so that's why women need need
Speaker 1: to really intentionally practice self compassion to overcome firstu the
Speaker 1: socialization that tells us we should always be giving to others.
Speaker 1: And it's also partly our sense of self worth is
Speaker 1: predicated on people likeness and thinking more nice. And you know,
Speaker 1: this is the I'm in a a side of me coming
Speaker 1: out the system's kind of rigged against us because the
Speaker 1: system doesn't reward us for achieving and you know, doing
Speaker 1: our own thing, at least not traditionally the traditional system.
Speaker 1: The system rewards us for helping others. Well, who are
Speaker 1: those others? The men in our lives, you know, or
Speaker 1: there aren't the men's you know, our children? But who
Speaker 1: are the children? Are the men in our lives? So
Speaker 1: the system is kind of set up that is patriarchy, right.
Speaker 1: Women are assigned role of help me. Our job is
Speaker 1: to help the men, and men are the ones who
Speaker 1: get their needs men. You know, again, I'm black saying
Speaker 1: this in a black and white way, but traditionally that's
Speaker 1: kind of where the whole system came from. And so
Speaker 1: in a way, by women saying, well, wait a second,
Speaker 1: my needs count two, not more than anyone else's, but
Speaker 1: at least as much as anyone else's. And actually, no,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be able to if I'm angry and
Speaker 1: I need to say no, I'm going to get angry
Speaker 1: or I'm going to say no. I don't want to
Speaker 1: harm anyone by doing that, but I'm not going to
Speaker 1: harm myself by saying yes what I really need to know?
Speaker 1: And so it's almost like a political act as well
Speaker 1: as an act of personal you know, a self actualization.
Speaker 1: It's really both the personal is political. I didn't come
Speaker 1: up with that one, but it's true. Yeah. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: definitely a socialization difference where if you're assertive, you assert
Speaker 1: your needs as a man that tends to be rewarded,
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, well, we got to pay attention
Speaker 1: to it, you know, but but maybe not as much
Speaker 1: with the young women and then those that develops over time.
Speaker 1: Do you think if there was a matriarchy, Like, do
Speaker 1: you think if we had a matriarchy and do that
Speaker 1: thought experiment, it would be more there'd be more of
Speaker 1: an equitable appreciation of asserting needs for both men and women,
Speaker 1: or would the power just be reversed and suddenly women
Speaker 1: would be like, we don't care about men's needs. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know a lot about matriarchy, but
Speaker 1: studied and I know a little bit. But from what
Speaker 1: I understand, it is different. Right, So it's not like
Speaker 1: it's just in reverse that in matriarchies there's more value
Speaker 1: on the communal on cooperation, right, it's the values of
Speaker 1: like unbridled capitalism and exploitation. So I have spent some
Speaker 1: time with bushman sun hunter gatherers in the Kalahari. They
Speaker 1: aren't a matriarchy, but they're pretty egalitarian, you know, and
Speaker 1: they've got pretty there's gender role specialization, but they aren't rigid.
Speaker 1: So women will also kind of hunt, and the men
Speaker 1: will also kind of gather, and they make decisions together.
Speaker 1: And it's not like the men have all the power.
Speaker 1: It's just much more galitarian. And so I do think
Speaker 1: what's happened is you might say there's been too much
Speaker 1: fierceness without enough tenderness. The fierceness has expressed itself. It's
Speaker 1: like again capitalism, aggression, dominance. You know, I'd want to
Speaker 1: desire for superiority all those things and matters, feelings, more
Speaker 1: tender feelings of the heart of care, of kindness. They've
Speaker 1: been belittled in this system, and that's partly why if
Speaker 1: you look at the world around us, one of the
Speaker 1: reasons we're in the mess we're in. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: Kristin Neff, I agree so much with that, and and
Speaker 1: there's an interesting sort of not to like complain as
Speaker 1: a man for a second, but like i I'm absolutely not.
Speaker 1: My intention is to take at all the attension away
Speaker 1: from your very wonderful point. But just to illustrate an
Speaker 1: example is that I'm I'm you know, I love writing
Speaker 1: on Twitter stuff like we really lack tenderness. Like I
Speaker 1: wrote that tweet like a couple of weeks ago, I
Speaker 1: was like, this world needs more tenderness, more care, you know.
Speaker 1: And you know, some people are like, you know, like
Speaker 1: rolling their eyes right, and and I wonder if that's
Speaker 1: because I'm a man and I'm saying it, you know,
Speaker 1: And and so I think it sucks that we have
Speaker 1: any of these kinds of gendered things where like if
Speaker 1: you're a man, like when you talk about tenderness, you
Speaker 1: get eye rolls. If your women, you talk about assertiveness,
Speaker 1: even you might get eye rolls. And I think that
Speaker 1: sucks all around. It does well harms, It harms everyone.
Speaker 1: So Scott, I've annointed you to write the follow up
Speaker 1: book to mine, which is tender self Compassion, How men
Speaker 1: can harness kindness to discover their emotional intelligence and do
Speaker 1: the non dual theory. Whatever it was for you, I
Speaker 1: just got chills, he self actualized. It really does need
Speaker 1: to be written. It does. Everyone needs both. And just
Speaker 1: you might say, the blocks are a little different. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you need to go lest, sometimes you need to go right,
Speaker 1: but we're all aiming towards that center of wellness. Absolutely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's cool. So let's talk somewhere about the points in
Speaker 1: your book. I don't want to be that guy who
Speaker 1: then like directs the attention is like, you don't men
Speaker 1: have problems too, But I hope you understand my point.
Speaker 1: Totally acknowledge that. Yeah, no, but you get My point
Speaker 1: is that, you know, like anyone who goes kind of
Speaker 1: counter to their gender stereotype, and unfortunately you know, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, but look at like, you know, Hillary Clinton,
Speaker 1: people don't like it because she was too young. You know.
Speaker 1: The reason I go into the research is, you know,
Speaker 1: in the book Competent Woman, people don't like competent women
Speaker 1: because they assume they aren't nurturing. I like, but it's
Speaker 1: the research. But you know what I mean, the research
Speaker 1: it's I'm actually a little more young than y In
Speaker 1: and that gets me into trouble. You know, so a
Speaker 1: little bit more young than what did he say, I'm
Speaker 1: more young than y In? I'm more I've got more
Speaker 1: of that powerful energy. I'm very imp and that that
Speaker 1: and for some so I talk about it in my
Speaker 1: department that got me into trouble. You know, things that
Speaker 1: I did that when people won't even think about if
Speaker 1: a man did it, think oh she's too blunt, she's
Speaker 1: such a b word, you know, those things, if a
Speaker 1: woman is too strong and powerful. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: a lot of this is, as you know from the book,
Speaker 1: A lot of it's my personal journey. I mean personal,
Speaker 1: it's always has to be there and kind of how
Speaker 1: I've grappled with these two sides of myself. You know,
Speaker 1: I've always had to say, grapple with anger, you know.
Speaker 1: And I'm wired. I'm a little reactive by nature. I've
Speaker 1: got a lot of what I call my Collie energy,
Speaker 1: you know that that kind of fierce warrior goddess. But
Speaker 1: you can use collar, you can use another term. And
Speaker 1: so part of my journey was realizing that this is
Speaker 1: a strength. I don't need to apologize for the siding. Yes,
Speaker 1: I want to harness this. I don't want to harm
Speaker 1: anyone's feelings. I don't want to hurt people, of course,
Speaker 1: But the engine that that volcano inside me is actually
Speaker 1: beautiful something I should be thankful for because it's powered
Speaker 1: so much of what I've done in life, you know,
Speaker 1: and when when harness for good, it's an incredibly powerful
Speaker 1: force for good. And so anger actually has a lot
Speaker 1: of constructive uses. We don't want to belittle anger, We
Speaker 1: just want to make sure that it's integrated with tenderness.
Speaker 1: So again we're using anger as a way to alleviate suffering,
Speaker 1: not in a way that causes more suffering. Oh, totally.
Speaker 1: It makes me wonder why it takes you so long
Speaker 1: to write this book, because you would have thought that,
Speaker 1: you know, this would be an idea you would have
Speaker 1: had like twenty years ago, you know. Like the funny
Speaker 1: thing is is, actually my dissertation was on a gender
Speaker 1: role hierarchy in India. I was all about helping balance
Speaker 1: rights and responsibilities of an Indian family life. And I
Speaker 1: was really into gender and power. Yeah, and so I
Speaker 1: was always kind of was interested in this, especially how
Speaker 1: people balance the personal needs with others needs, so kind
Speaker 1: of Carol Gligan and justice and Carol was really interested
Speaker 1: in all that. And then I got on the self
Speaker 1: compassion tagent and so I've been focusing on like that
Speaker 1: for about the last eighteen years. And then like it's
Speaker 1: all coming full circle. I didn't even do it on purpose.
Speaker 1: I realized, wait a second, I used to study this,
Speaker 1: I used to study thoughts about gender hierarchy and power inequality,
Speaker 1: and now I'm doing it in the context of self compassion.
Speaker 1: And it's it's so, it's so satisfying to me because
Speaker 1: you know, one of the problems criticisms that can be
Speaker 1: leveled at people who do psychology work, you know, is
Speaker 1: it just too much about personal wellness? You know, personal
Speaker 1: wellness isn't enough. And we've got systemic racism, we have sexism,
Speaker 1: we have health and equality, we have global warming. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not enough just to turn inward. We need to
Speaker 1: we need to do both right. We need to change,
Speaker 1: make interchange, and we need to be engaged in changing
Speaker 1: the world. And you can't look at the world without
Speaker 1: considering issues of like power and patriarchy and racism and
Speaker 1: all those things. And so it feels really satisfying for
Speaker 1: me to be able to come back to my roots,
Speaker 1: you might say, and to integrate them. There's a deeper
Speaker 1: level of integration going on with your deeper level of integration. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I see that, I clearly see that. Yeah, could someone Okay,
Speaker 1: this is the question I have then could self compassion
Speaker 1: too much self compassion or fear self compassion become too selfish?
Speaker 1: You know, just playing off of what you said, you know,
Speaker 1: is there a point where you could be like, come on,
Speaker 1: like try focusing on the compassion for these other people
Speaker 1: who are suffering. Yes, well exactly. So it's always a
Speaker 1: matter of balance. So I kind of talk about how,
Speaker 1: you know, the three elements of self compassion just to
Speaker 1: go over again er mindfulness, kindness, in common humanity, and
Speaker 1: these are really the three core constituent components of self compassion.
Speaker 1: So you need mindful, you need to be aware of suffering.
Speaker 1: You need to be turned toward pain without exaggerating it.
Speaker 1: You need some perspective, you need kindness, you need to
Speaker 1: care about that suffering, and you need a sense of connectedness.
Speaker 1: So it's not pity, it's like, okay, we're all human
Speaker 1: and when and I've got how does that look when
Speaker 1: it comes to meeting your needs? And so kindness means
Speaker 1: providing for yourself, fulfilling counting, you know, saying that I
Speaker 1: need to fulfill myself. Mindfulness is let's see, its fulfiliing authenticity,
Speaker 1: knowing what you need. And this is where I go
Speaker 1: into the whole human potential. Work in that chapter about
Speaker 1: mindfulness leads to authenticity really asking what's true for me?
Speaker 1: But common humanity this is what This is where the
Speaker 1: balance comes in because common humanity recognizes interconnection. So if
Speaker 1: you are to be selfish and prioritize your own needs
Speaker 1: over those of others, you would lose the threat of
Speaker 1: common humanity. Right the same time, if you subordinate your
Speaker 1: own needs to those of others, you lose the threat
Speaker 1: of common humanity. What common humanity really points to at
Speaker 1: a deeper level, its interdependence intervene this awareness of how
Speaker 1: we're all in this together. And so for the difference
Speaker 1: you might say between self love and self compassion, self love,
Speaker 1: maybe it is selfishness. You know, maybe narcissists do love themselves.
Speaker 1: You know, whether or not they really do is hard
Speaker 1: to say. But nonetheless, there's nothing in the construct itself
Speaker 1: that would balance that out. But compassion, the fact that
Speaker 1: other people are always part of the equation, it kind
Speaker 1: of prevents selfishness. And again, if you look at the research,
Speaker 1: it reduces the sense of separate self. So I actually
Speaker 1: believe it or not. I have a study where I
Speaker 1: looked at how people balance the self needs and others
Speaker 1: needs when there's a conflict in interpersonal situations, and self
Speaker 1: compassionate people were more likely to compromise. They didn't subordinate
Speaker 1: their needs, but they also didn't prioritize them, so that
Speaker 1: it actually led people for balance, and that balance leads
Speaker 1: to more authenticity, more voice, more relational well being. That's awesome.
Speaker 1: I don'd love to see that study. Is that recent.
Speaker 1: Actually it was a while ago. It was because it
Speaker 1: was all your peoples. It's because I had been doing
Speaker 1: research on how people balance in the context of power
Speaker 1: and equality, how people balance the self and others needs.
Speaker 1: This was my interest and then I got into self compassion.
Speaker 1: So I just threw in my new self compassion scale,
Speaker 1: one of the studies that I was already doing, and
Speaker 1: I found this out. And that's why it's so interesting
Speaker 1: that it's come full circle. I didn't intend it, but
Speaker 1: that's where life has led me. It's kind of cool.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. Yeah, so many things
Speaker 1: are coming full circle for me as well, and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: that's fascinating how that happens. Well, okay, again, this is
Speaker 1: a really another nerdy question. But I was looking the
Speaker 1: literature recently because I wanted to include some items from
Speaker 1: your scale in my book Transcend, which I did, Which
Speaker 1: I did, and well, I talked about the merits of
Speaker 1: self compassion as part of our MASWOW called being love
Speaker 1: love for the being of others. And then I said,
Speaker 1: you can love the being of yourself as well. So
Speaker 1: then I argued you could turn it in turn it
Speaker 1: within the same spotlight. But what I noticed is that
Speaker 1: in predicting psychopathology, some people argue that self coldness is
Speaker 1: a better predictor than self compassion. So I've been I've
Speaker 1: been wanting to nerd out with you about that. Okay,
Speaker 1: you want to get into psycho I can go there.
Speaker 1: I do love psychometrics because I know the reverse coded
Speaker 1: items will. It's been this big debate and it's actually
Speaker 1: been good because I've had to get really serious about
Speaker 1: my psychometrics. So here's the thing it is. I think
Speaker 1: the way it works is that the reason self compassion
Speaker 1: is linked to reduce psycho pathology is because you're reducing
Speaker 1: negative ways of coping with negative emotions and pain. Right,
Speaker 1: So when you reduce self judgment, feelings of isolation and
Speaker 1: over identification, which are the reverse coded items in my scale.
Speaker 1: That seems to be if you kind of look at
Speaker 1: it psychometrically, a more powerful predictor of why things like
Speaker 1: anxiety and depression are reduced. But if you look at
Speaker 1: they go hand in hand, right, So in other words,
Speaker 1: and we know every single intervention study you look at,
Speaker 1: when you increase self kindness, common humanity, and mindfulness, self judgment, isolation,
Speaker 1: and of identification go down. It's like a seesaw. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems like one side of the sea saw seems
Speaker 1: to be more responsible to it. But they work together.
Speaker 1: They operate in tandem. And actually a paper just came
Speaker 1: out using RASH modeling which found a unitary factor structure
Speaker 1: I've been. I reflected twenty different samples, thirteen different translations,
Speaker 1: so I had to get serious about my psychometric You
Speaker 1: seeing by factor of exploratory structural equation Modeling e SM,
Speaker 1: which is is the system. Here's the thing, and you
Speaker 1: would understand this guy that operates as a system. People's
Speaker 1: minds don't think in systems. They think in black and
Speaker 1: white terms. To see that the black or it's the light.
Speaker 1: It's simple, but they aren't separate. They interact as a
Speaker 1: system and they operate in tandem. So I just I'm
Speaker 1: writing up a study now it shows if you increase
Speaker 1: to writing just the three positive components, the negative components
Speaker 1: go down, and if you try to reduce the negative
Speaker 1: components the positive up. They work in tandem. So it's like,
Speaker 1: are they different? Well, yeah, that kind of bar and
Speaker 1: that's kind of marginally interesting, and what's the mechanim's of action.
Speaker 1: But it's like saying, okay, well is it wind speed
Speaker 1: or storm surge that creates the negative effects of a hurricane. Well,
Speaker 1: they operate together. So yeah, it's kind of interesting and
Speaker 1: I think it's worth looking at them. But first of all,
Speaker 1: they don't It's not black and white this. It's not
Speaker 1: like there's two factors do not fit the scale, six
Speaker 1: factors fit the scale, or one factor fits the scale,
Speaker 1: two factors don't fit the scale, because then you're merging
Speaker 1: these things that are different. It's an interactive system that coheres. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there really is a strong higher order leadent construct there.
Speaker 1: It's not higher order, it's by it's as okay, okay,
Speaker 1: the by factor doesn't mean two factors. I know, the
Speaker 1: language is terrible, it's just it's not like there's one
Speaker 1: like intelligence is a higher higher order model is I
Speaker 1: C G, which explains these lower order factors of you know,
Speaker 1: of the intelligence verbal. So this is like so it
Speaker 1: goes both it's bi directional. It's actually bi directional, and
Speaker 1: other the items. It's not like the subscales are explained
Speaker 1: by this higher order factor of self compassion, which is
Speaker 1: like somehow above it. They're actually it can it can,
Speaker 1: It's what can. What's the verb form of constituent? It constitutes.
Speaker 1: It constitutes self compassion. So it's not like there's this
Speaker 1: self compassion thing out there that explains all the variance
Speaker 1: in self kindness, mindfulness, common humanity. They co they cohere
Speaker 1: is the system. It's not. It's not hierarchical. It's bi directional.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to I'll show you. I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: of how to model that. Because listeners are probably lost,
Speaker 1: they probably don't care. I'll send you a paper, please do.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of how to model that. You
Speaker 1: have to model it with structural equation modeling. But I
Speaker 1: have to say that even though the debate has been
Speaker 1: a pain in the ass, it's been good because I've
Speaker 1: had to really up my skills. And there's a brilliant
Speaker 1: statistician I work with from Hungary who who's really great,
Speaker 1: and he found a way to model it as a
Speaker 1: system and it does operate and it works together, it
Speaker 1: works in tandem, and all the intervention research confirms that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm really into psychometrics and test construction. So the way
Speaker 1: you describe it, I'll send you the papers, and also
Speaker 1: the rash modeling, because the rash modeling part of it
Speaker 1: is just negative and positive affect is interfering as well,
Speaker 1: so negative tends to clump with negative and positive tends
Speaker 1: to clump with positive. It does seem to me the
Speaker 1: way you're describing is that it best represented as a
Speaker 1: reflective trait in the sense that it's this idea of
Speaker 1: self question emerges from the interaction of a general specific factor.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, But the general isn't necessarily higher
Speaker 1: than this. The general is reflective. Yeah, it's kind of
Speaker 1: probably bi directional, you know, he interacts in some way.
Speaker 1: It's not, it's not you don't have to have the
Speaker 1: order there just is there both the general and but
Speaker 1: us ninety five percent of the shared variance is explained
Speaker 1: by the general factor. So it's like that's good. Then
Speaker 1: there is a lead in general factor. Oh there is
Speaker 1: a general factor. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, hierarchical. Okay, well
Speaker 1: we won't we will will put that tables anymore, but
Speaker 1: I'll tend you the paper. But it's kind of fun
Speaker 1: if you're into psychometrics. I can't wait to read the paper.
Speaker 1: It's it's so interesting because that you have some people
Speaker 1: in the field they are like so adamant about like
Speaker 1: it's all about selfness, you know, like like we need
Speaker 1: to help people who are being harsh to themselves as
Speaker 1: a and how do you do that through your self
Speaker 1: compassion trainings? And that's the thing. If you look at
Speaker 1: any sort of whether it's state scale, it just developed
Speaker 1: a state scale, whether it's short term mood induction or
Speaker 1: whether it's long term, how do you reduce self coldest
Speaker 1: you increase self compassion. It's like they go hand in hand.
Speaker 1: It's like you know, you sit on one end of
Speaker 1: the seesaw and the other one goes changes that they
Speaker 1: work intendem There is no studies that show they operate separately.
Speaker 1: I hear you, So what's the point, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I know what they would say, clinical intervent it is
Speaker 1: clinical interventions. Why how do you reduce self coldest? You
Speaker 1: increase self compassion So if you call it reduced uncompassionate responding,
Speaker 1: how do you how do you increase compassionate responding? Increase it?
Speaker 1: One person in this guy that he talks about, it's
Speaker 1: not it's not increased protection, it's it's long ability. Well,
Speaker 1: reduce vulnerability is protection. I mean they go hand in hand.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like people they lose their they lose
Speaker 1: their marbles over it, and it's like, practically it's almost pointless.
Speaker 1: Bother No, they're not going to the practical level. They're
Speaker 1: they're looking at just what is the best predictor what
Speaker 1: I don't in a cross sexual study? Correct? Correct, If
Speaker 1: you do an experimental study, all the evidence is to
Speaker 1: say that these here is a system and also cross
Speaker 1: sexual psychometrically. But yeah, it's kind of this is a
Speaker 1: this is a problem. When you've got a scale that's
Speaker 1: been used like four thousand times, people like to challenge it,
Speaker 1: which is good. But it's good. It's good because it's
Speaker 1: made me get my chops in order. Whatever. I think
Speaker 1: the scale is pretty uh well validated at this point.
Speaker 1: With I am revising it though this is I'm not right.
Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm shortening it because yeah, it's a Now
Speaker 1: that I've got the better psychometrics, I'm going to reduce
Speaker 1: it items instead of twenty six so that will be helpful.
Speaker 1: Oh good, I can that's coming sticking in more into
Speaker 1: my studies, you know, like you know it'll be like, okay,
Speaker 1: well we'll add this help a six item short form
Speaker 1: that has a unitary factor strut. Okay, here's if you
Speaker 1: had to pick one of your favorite the the best loaded,
Speaker 1: highest loaded on the general factor. What's the number one
Speaker 1: highest loaded item? Listen, I'm not sure what that is actually,
Speaker 1: I have to chet I've got that data. It's the
Speaker 1: data exists somewhere. Yeah, I've got it. I don't. I can't.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to take my time now, but I'll
Speaker 1: send it to you afterwards. I bet it's like can
Speaker 1: I it's probably just simply I am kind of myself
Speaker 1: or something like that. That's probably the probably something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: face valid. Yeah, So okay, let's talk about the common
Speaker 1: humanity facet because I think it's so relevant to all
Speaker 1: the divisions we're seeing right now and all the the
Speaker 1: sort of the tribalism. Now, how do you how do
Speaker 1: you like if there are certain people that are really
Speaker 1: thinking of really tribal mindset in the extent to which
Speaker 1: even anyone that resembles someone in their out group, they
Speaker 1: immediately have this visceral action night like, I hate that person.
Speaker 1: How can they learn principles of self compasion, especially the
Speaker 1: common humanity facet, to maybe connect more with others? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean so, I think there's so much work to
Speaker 1: be done with this, Scott Total. So common humanity is
Speaker 1: a very tricky one. It's a tricky one to teach
Speaker 1: people because sometimes what happens so in the bigger picture
Speaker 1: is really pointing to the big interconnection, like the big Khuna.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like we're all intervening, We're all not
Speaker 1: just you know, the kind of Buddhist self realization. That's
Speaker 1: where it points ultimately. But people can understand it at
Speaker 1: that level that shown mushrooms or something. So in the normal,
Speaker 1: the normal squaking state, what happens sometimes is common humanity
Speaker 1: is uh. People start It's almost misinterpreted to mean that
Speaker 1: somehow belittles their own suffering. When I say things like
Speaker 1: you aren't alone. Other people feel this way. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: really important to counter the isolation, but sometimes people feel
Speaker 1: that kind of belittles their suffering. And again because it's
Speaker 1: hard that the mind is so comparative, and it's probably
Speaker 1: we're just wired that way. We're always trying to compare.
Speaker 1: How do I compare to others? They suffer more than media,
Speaker 1: they suffer less to me. Who's special lit above average
Speaker 1: is not. It's very hard to come to this place
Speaker 1: where each individual is unique and precious, and yet we're
Speaker 1: all part of this larger whole. So honoring the whole
Speaker 1: doesn't somehow devalue the individual, And it's kind of again
Speaker 1: a system's way of thinking that's this challenging for people.
Speaker 1: So when I teach it, I often just talk about
Speaker 1: trying to help people feel less alone, because isolation. Actually,
Speaker 1: it's looking like that's probably the most powerful contributor to psychopathology,
Speaker 1: that feeling of isolation and being separate, I believe it
Speaker 1: or not, even more than the self judgment seems to
Speaker 1: be the most per predicture of depression, for instance. And
Speaker 1: so when I teach self compassion, I usually just try
Speaker 1: to help people understand that they aren't alone, and sometimes
Speaker 1: it can actually be useful to think of members of
Speaker 1: your group and that you aren't alone. So especially if
Speaker 1: you're a marginalized group, you know, so look at like
Speaker 1: the Me Too movement or the Black Lives Matter movement
Speaker 1: in this In this sense, what's happening is people are
Speaker 1: like feeling less alone identifying with members of their group.
Speaker 1: And that's not a bad thing, right, So, I mean
Speaker 1: it's it's complicated, right, So when you kind of get
Speaker 1: rid of group where you get a rid of group
Speaker 1: identity and try to say we're all one will all
Speaker 1: lives matter, and that can be a problem because you're
Speaker 1: in a way kind of invalidating the fact that group
Speaker 1: membership does count. You know, it is part of our identity.
Speaker 1: So if it serves people to feel more connected to
Speaker 1: their group, then I think there's not necessarily a problem
Speaker 1: with it. It's only when you start dehumanizing people that's
Speaker 1: where the problem comes. In humanizing people who are output
Speaker 1: members or dehumanizing yourself. I mean some people actually they
Speaker 1: dehumanize themselves. And so from that point of view, I
Speaker 1: think the element of humanity the everyone here, the second baby,
Speaker 1: we take a first breath in this world, you don't
Speaker 1: need to earn the right to compassion, and it is
Speaker 1: our birthright, you know. Then you can even extend that
Speaker 1: to animals or you know, but plants even, and so
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a complex, you see, it's tricky
Speaker 1: and uh so I was I'm kind of ultimately, I'm
Speaker 1: a pragmatist. That's kind of Ultimately what I come down
Speaker 1: to helps what's going to help you. And so if
Speaker 1: it's going to help you feel less alone and isolated
Speaker 1: by feeling bonded with your group, you know, maybe your queer,
Speaker 1: maybe you're you know, a person of color, or maybe
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's okay as long as you
Speaker 1: aren't humanizing other people. Now, the question you asked, which
Speaker 1: is really interesting, which is how can we use self compassion,
Speaker 1: especially this common humanity point to help kill these divisions.
Speaker 1: There are some research that suggests people who score higher
Speaker 1: on the common humanity subscale are less prejudiced. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: that's very interesting, Christin. Yeah, and there's not a lot.
Speaker 1: There's a little bit. I don't want to make too
Speaker 1: much of it, but there's a little bit of data
Speaker 1: that suggests that because what it leads you to so
Speaker 1: usually you know, the items are framed as human beings.
Speaker 1: You're not saying, like your group members, I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: but sometimes I teach it that way because it can
Speaker 1: be helpful. But what self compassion does, even though the
Speaker 1: s word is in their self, it actually reduces the
Speaker 1: sense of separate self. With more self compassion, you take
Speaker 1: things less personally. Ironically, that's what you're doing when you
Speaker 1: frame your experience in light of the shared human experience.
Speaker 1: Everyone fails, everyone makes mistakes, everyone struggles, everyone needs an
Speaker 1: imperfect life. You're reducing the self, reducing self focus. That's
Speaker 1: one of its biggest benefits is that it actually reduces
Speaker 1: self focus. And I think when you take things less personally,
Speaker 1: then it can allow you to see other people more
Speaker 1: as human beings. And so there may be some way
Speaker 1: of actually harnessing the power of this to understand our
Speaker 1: shared humanity. I agree. Yeah, that's another book that needs
Speaker 1: to be red is just a book self compassion to
Speaker 1: heal the divine, you know. And the only reason I
Speaker 1: add about the group is because for a really kind
Speaker 1: of flabbergasted me, you know, I always thought, well, I
Speaker 1: always wanted to share humanity. Bit but I was getting
Speaker 1: comments like from some of some black participants. They had
Speaker 1: makes me feel kind of like, you're saying, we're all
Speaker 1: the same. Well, this is this color blindness. This is
Speaker 1: actually it's easy for white people to say color blindness,
Speaker 1: but not if you're not a white person. You know,
Speaker 1: there is color does make a difference. Things like that.
Speaker 1: It made me realize, wow, I've got to be you
Speaker 1: need to be careful. That I expected. They get some pushback,
Speaker 1: they yeah, but it's also true. So I think that's
Speaker 1: why sometimes you need to go left, sometimes you need
Speaker 1: to go right. It's kind of like, where are you
Speaker 1: coming from to get to that place of balance? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's a great that's that's the
Speaker 1: great question. It is all about the balance. You know.
Speaker 1: Aren't there certain situations though, where someone should probably have
Speaker 1: more common humanity than they do, and they're like they're
Speaker 1: being resistant to it to an unnecessary degree degree? Probably yeah, probably, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, so common humanity really is the wisdom element
Speaker 1: of self compassion. So mindfulness is more the intentional, attentional element.
Speaker 1: What are we paying attention to, what are we willing
Speaker 1: to be aware of? The consciousness element. Common humanity is
Speaker 1: the wisdom element seeing the larger picture, and then you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of self compassion really is what what do
Speaker 1: I need to alleviate my suffering? What do I need
Speaker 1: to be well? And people I think sometimes people think
Speaker 1: I'm dear abby, and like I can tell them, I
Speaker 1: don't know. You're the only one who knows that you
Speaker 1: need to use your own wisdom. And then the kindness
Speaker 1: element is the hard element, that's the love element, and
Speaker 1: that's why you really need all three. I think if
Speaker 1: you don't have the wisdom or you don't have it's
Speaker 1: the system. Yeah, it's hard to think in systems. We're
Speaker 1: just poor little black and white thinkers. But the reality
Speaker 1: is the systems. You know that I do. I love it. No,
Speaker 1: I'm all about systems. It's all about the whole, the
Speaker 1: whole person as well. Yeah, hey, hey, are you familiar
Speaker 1: with the Quiet ego research with the Heidi women. Yeah, Jack,
Speaker 1: I know that I love that stuff. Well, that stuff,
Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, Yeah, it's so good. And they
Speaker 1: have a common they have. They took some of your items,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, they not took that sounds like stolen, stealing,
Speaker 1: but they adopted, adopted, uh, from one of my facets. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some overlap. Yeah, and that that is there is
Speaker 1: and that's one of that is one of the things
Speaker 1: that self compassion gives you, you know. And that's also
Speaker 1: what I think we need more in the world right now.
Speaker 1: We do we do well it. We need a lot
Speaker 1: of things in the world. I mean, that's the thing
Speaker 1: I'm starting to see, yea, is it just depending on
Speaker 1: where you're coming from, what you need is going to differ.
Speaker 1: You know. That's how we need to empower people to
Speaker 1: ask themselves, what do you need? Because I mean there's
Speaker 1: also I think this social justice movement that's happening, it's
Speaker 1: really important and we have to do it well. We
Speaker 1: have to do it wisely. We don't want to add
Speaker 1: to the violence of the division. We don't just want
Speaker 1: to add to aggressiveness and hate all that. We have
Speaker 1: to be really careful. And on the other hand, we
Speaker 1: need to we need to start doing something about it.
Speaker 1: We don't have a lot of time, you know, look
Speaker 1: at global warming. We don't have unlimited time for us
Speaker 1: all to sit on our cushions and get enlightened, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's like it's also this is why we this
Speaker 1: is why we also need the fear of energy. The
Speaker 1: quiet ego stuff is a little bit more of the
Speaker 1: acceptance so I call I call tender self compassion, being
Speaker 1: with When we can be with ourselves, we can be
Speaker 1: with what is, and that's kind of the transcendent, very
Speaker 1: very important. But we are in bodies, right maybe ultimately
Speaker 1: we aren't right now. We are in bodies living in
Speaker 1: a concrete, in just world, and we also need to
Speaker 1: take action to try to change things. We need both. Yeah,
Speaker 1: then that's a big part of why you wrote your
Speaker 1: book was to have fear of self compassion. But certainly
Speaker 1: you can have fear self compassion and dial down the
Speaker 1: loudness of the ego. I mean absolutely we could have
Speaker 1: a higher level of integration there, and that's what makes
Speaker 1: it healthy. So on my chapter of anger, I kind
Speaker 1: of end with I think talking about that is if
Speaker 1: the ego gets in the way with anger, it all
Speaker 1: goes pear shaped. But if you can harness the power
Speaker 1: of anger in an ego less way, and it's just
Speaker 1: this energy, this young force that's being harnessed for good,
Speaker 1: that's really useful. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: does make your head spin a little bit, though, doesn't
Speaker 1: it sometimes make you wish that, like did I choose
Speaker 1: to write profession? My head hurts because, you know, because
Speaker 1: non dual thinking paradise, it goes to paradox, it goes
Speaker 1: to non dual thinking, and it is challenging for our
Speaker 1: brains to think, you know, to use our dualistic brains
Speaker 1: to think non dual terms. You got to just point
Speaker 1: it there, take your best shot. I enjoy it, Kristen,
Speaker 1: until you like playing around with paradoxes and yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: and nerding out John Chaw who says, if you think
Speaker 1: about it too much, your your head will explode. That's
Speaker 1: kind of I'm shocked my head hasn't exploded yet, But
Speaker 1: maybe this will be the kind of the last question
Speaker 1: because I a lot of but I did like a
Speaker 1: Twitter Q and A, and I asked people, what do
Speaker 1: you want me to ask Kristen? And by the way,
Speaker 1: a lot of oh did you not? Do you see it?
Speaker 1: Did you You You didn't see all the comments on Twitter?
Speaker 1: Maybe you didn't, So I can just tell you A
Speaker 1: lot of people were like, Chris f is my idol
Speaker 1: or my mother's idol? It was one of the two,
Speaker 1: one of the two I don't want mother's idle. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: very good, it's very good. It's very good. I'm just
Speaker 1: scrolling through so so a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: just just a lot of love for you, uh or
Speaker 1: my wife. My also, my wife loves her work so
Speaker 1: much and it's and is so jealous that you get
Speaker 1: to talk to her. Exclamation, Ah, that's all right. But
Speaker 1: then another kind of set of questions we talked about
Speaker 1: this kind of bas striking and the good balance again,
Speaker 1: we're going back to the the balance thing between self compassion
Speaker 1: but also taking responsibility for maybe your naughty bits, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, like the aspects of yourself that like you
Speaker 1: should work on, you know. Yeah, but that's one of
Speaker 1: the that's one of the core misconceptions of self compassion.
Speaker 1: Absolutely research shows the research, but I think Adam Berkeley
Speaker 1: shows if you get help people be self compassionate about
Speaker 1: it transgression with the harm sowe in the past, it
Speaker 1: helps them take more responsibility. It doesn't lessen responsibility. Helps
Speaker 1: you take more responsibility because it's safe to admit it, right,
Speaker 1: if you're going to shame yourself, if you're going to
Speaker 1: criticize yourself, it's not safe to take responsibility. You could
Speaker 1: want to blame it on other people because it's too painful.
Speaker 1: Project self compassion does it actually increases your ability to
Speaker 1: take responsibility. It increases your motivation to improve. But it
Speaker 1: does it from a different reason, so you don't it's
Speaker 1: not coming from a place of like I need to
Speaker 1: improve because I'm so inadequate, Like I need to improve
Speaker 1: because I care about myself and I care about other people,
Speaker 1: and I want to be healthy and well. And it's
Speaker 1: a much more sustainable motivation and works more Over time,
Speaker 1: people are more self compassionate, They say sorry more often,
Speaker 1: they apologize more often, because again, it's safe to take responsibility.
Speaker 1: And again, that's that's the slight. That's that's also why
Speaker 1: I wrote this book. This is the en and young
Speaker 1: the here's instant tenderness. It's the dance of acceptance and change.
Speaker 1: You know, you know obviously this one, Karl Rogers, is
Speaker 1: the curious paradox is the more I accept myself, the
Speaker 1: more I can change. It absolutely works that with personal responsibility,
Speaker 1: it is not saying yourself off the hook. Quite the opposite.
Speaker 1: You need to you need to be brave and strong
Speaker 1: to say that hurts so badly. Actually, self compassion is
Speaker 1: linked positively to shame free guilt. It's not linked to
Speaker 1: shame the guilt that isn't about shame guilts, which is
Speaker 1: I'm still so badly what can I do to help?
Speaker 1: It's actually positively the guilt. Well, it sounds like you're
Speaker 1: saying it's a necessary but not sufficient condition for taking responsibility.
Speaker 1: So some people might just stop at the self compassion
Speaker 1: part though, and never move on to the table. Then
Speaker 1: that they aren't being self compassionate if they aren't sure, Okay,
Speaker 1: so that's like necessarily parent. If you're a compassionate parent
Speaker 1: and your child does something wrong, you love them unconditionally.
Speaker 1: You know that's that's a given, and that's that that's
Speaker 1: the end part. But if you're a compassionate parent, do
Speaker 1: you just say, well, whatever, just don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: Tell you a little you're into shoplifting, No big deal,
Speaker 1: I love you, sweetheart. Would you really be a compassionate parent? No,
Speaker 1: because you'd be hard, no, seriously, be harming your child
Speaker 1: hard to be a good comparent. Did you got to
Speaker 1: do the tough stuff and say I care about you
Speaker 1: so much that I need to work with you to
Speaker 1: change his behavior because it's harmful. And so if we
Speaker 1: don't take responsibility for what things are doing that are
Speaker 1: harmful to ourselves and others, we are not by definition
Speaker 1: being compassionate. We aren't working in our best interest. Wow,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for this conceptualization. And well and
Speaker 1: kind of like uh, you know this laying this misconception
Speaker 1: arrest because you must get it, like I get every day,
Speaker 1: all day, every day. Yeah, and and the journalists do
Speaker 1: the journalists broke about my works, like give yourself a break,
Speaker 1: you know, to go easy on yourself. Maybe that's what
Speaker 1: you need. But maybe what you need is like to say,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not working for me. I got to
Speaker 1: do something different. You need to apologize, you need to
Speaker 1: you know, you need to go to anger management, whatever
Speaker 1: it is you need to do. And so ways, it's
Speaker 1: kind of almost by definition, self compassion can't be bad
Speaker 1: for you because the definition of self compassion is the
Speaker 1: alleviation of suffering. It's like it's like, what do how
Speaker 1: do I achieve well being? And so if you aren't
Speaker 1: achieving well being, then it's by definition not self compassion.
Speaker 1: Maybe we use unskillful means, you know, but then you
Speaker 1: need to change things. It's it's it's it's the ends
Speaker 1: not the means, right, just like you can be you
Speaker 1: don't want to like harm. You don't want to be
Speaker 1: so self compassionate in a way that traumatizes you. You You
Speaker 1: don't want to open up so fast that it caused
Speaker 1: you trauma, because that's not being self compassionate. So it's
Speaker 1: really just an orientation. It's an orientation of of wanting
Speaker 1: wellness for yourself and others because what affects you affects me,
Speaker 1: and what affects me affects you, because that is the truth.
Speaker 1: We are interdependent. There's a really deep truth there. We
Speaker 1: found in our sample of dark triad, you know, psychopaths
Speaker 1: that they're very their their self coldness was up the kazoo,
Speaker 1: you know. So there's something about like, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: harnessing this kind of light of this beam of love
Speaker 1: that you can just be flexible in terms of shining
Speaker 1: inward as well as outward. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So so you found that narcissists were self critical, Well,
Speaker 1: those are Scareheim dark triad, which is all three you know,
Speaker 1: they're they're you know, so psychopathy macavelism, and narcissism. That
Speaker 1: you know, all three interesting. I should look at just narcissists. Uh,
Speaker 1: those are square high narissism. What what what's your prediction there?
Speaker 1: You know, the narcissists are I have no idea. What
Speaker 1: what would self compassion look like a narcisst. I really
Speaker 1: don't know. It'd be really fascinating those numbers. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I do know if you if you take like the
Speaker 1: Rosenberg self esteem scale and self compassion, and they're pretty
Speaker 1: highly correlated. But if you partial out their their shared variants.
Speaker 1: I actually published a paper narcissism was only correlated with
Speaker 1: self esteem and didn't correlate it all with self compassion.
Speaker 1: That's so that's revealing, Yeah, the kind of orthogonal. Well, so,
Speaker 1: for instance, we created the counterparts of the dark triad,
Speaker 1: we created a light triad, and we were curious about
Speaker 1: the light triad correlated with self compassion, and we found
Speaker 1: zero point eight zero correlation. Really, yeah, it was so high,
Speaker 1: so high, the three aspects of the light triad. I
Speaker 1: can send you the paper afterwards. I love that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you'd really find this interesting. But I just
Speaker 1: want to thank you so much Kristin for coming on
Speaker 1: my podcast twice, but also you know, nerding out with
Speaker 1: me again. I hope you enjoyed it. I can't believe
Speaker 1: I did a podcast and talked about bifactor books, Floor Jory,
Speaker 1: structural equation, Bodily. Did you enjoy it? I did. It's fun.
Speaker 1: I got to use all parts of my brain. Is good, wonderful. Well,
Speaker 1: all the best in this book tour, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: you'll be helping lots of men and women, you know,
Speaker 1: get get in touch with their own sort of unique
Speaker 1: self actualization and acceptance. So thanks so much much. I'm serious, Scott,
Speaker 1: I'm charging you with writing the follow up book for man.
Speaker 1: You're the perfect person, you know, Like when you said
Speaker 1: that earlier today, I got chilled. I really got chills,
Speaker 1: Like my whole body got chills. And that usually only
Speaker 1: happens when there's some some really germ of a seed
Speaker 1: of of something that really is inspiring me whole body,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that book needs to
Speaker 1: be written. But you know, if you look at your reach,
Speaker 1: it's partly because you're able to talk about that, the
Speaker 1: more the emotions in an incredible way, which is really useful.
Speaker 1: So thanks chat anyway, thanks for being so awesome, great fun.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to react in some way to something
Speaker 1: you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion
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