Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef in best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, and welcome
Speaker 1: to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Dronte, my
Speaker 1: name is Jamie Loftz, and it's your birthday episode, Jamie
Speaker 1: the episode. I'm so excited. Oh and boy do we
Speaker 1: have my favorite movie of all time for you today.
Speaker 1: So what we are doing today on the Bechtel Cast
Speaker 1: and we will get you up to speed. If you've
Speaker 1: never listened before, welcome, It's my birthday. We're gonna tell
Speaker 1: you what the podcast is about in a second. But
Speaker 1: for for returning listeners, we are unlocking an episode from
Speaker 1: our patreon ak Matreon back from eighteen yeah early, which,
Speaker 1: as we'll discuss, was in a way five thousand years ago.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, it's an episode about Titania, one of
Speaker 1: my faves. And so if you're not a member of
Speaker 1: the Matreon, this will be your first time. And if
Speaker 1: you also, if you're not a member of the Matreon,
Speaker 1: you know, think about joining us. It's a great little
Speaker 1: space for for everybody, beautiful community. But yes, uh, it
Speaker 1: is Italian Day on the cast. But first we have
Speaker 1: to tell everybody what our podcast is about, because we
Speaker 1: don't do that in Patreon episodes. If you're on the Matreon,
Speaker 1: you already know what you're getting into. But this, but
Speaker 1: on the main fade, we have to We have to
Speaker 1: be respectful of the fact that maybe it's your first
Speaker 1: time here because you're just an itonia stand and you
Speaker 1: couldn't help but click so true. So what we do
Speaker 1: on the Bechtel Cast is examine film through an intersectional
Speaker 1: feminist lens, focusing on the representation of women, but extending
Speaker 1: the conversation further to other topics. And we use the
Speaker 1: Bechdel Test as a just inspiration jumping off point, if
Speaker 1: you will. And that is a media metric created by
Speaker 1: queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test,
Speaker 1: and it requires that for our purposes, are version of
Speaker 1: the test that too, people of any marginalized gender. They
Speaker 1: have to have names, they have to speak to each
Speaker 1: other about something other than a man for at least
Speaker 1: two lines of dialogue. Let's try it, Okay, let's do it. Okay,
Speaker 1: Hey Caitlin, Yes, Jamie. Um, do you ever feel like
Speaker 1: in a biopic you're like, this biopic is so amazing,
Speaker 1: and then you learn about the subject of the biopic
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, jeez um, yes, I have done
Speaker 1: that before, especially when the biopic is about a woman.
Speaker 1: It makes you think and then it passes the Bechtel test. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be perfect, doesn't have to make sense,
Speaker 1: just really some bare minimum stuff. Most movies don't do it.
Speaker 1: You will not be shocked to know this movie is
Speaker 1: an exception. It's true. But yes, so we're gonna get
Speaker 1: the episode started up. We're gonna kind of cut you
Speaker 1: in at the recap, right, yeah, slightly before the recap.
Speaker 1: So what I was thinking, because since we've recorded this
Speaker 1: two and a half years two and a half years ago, right,
Speaker 1: so a little um, a little peek behind the curtain everyone.
Speaker 1: We recorded this early. It was when we were still
Speaker 1: recording our Matreon Patreon episodes on my iPhone. In my
Speaker 1: bed was the one that was on your eye. They're
Speaker 1: usually pre COVID. They were all in your bed, but
Speaker 1: not all on your I've uh, there's a clear timeline
Speaker 1: if if you're right, we the early UM Patreon episodes
Speaker 1: we recorded on my iPhone, so the sound quality is
Speaker 1: not bad. But if it doesn't sound top notch, that
Speaker 1: is why it was early days in the in the majors,
Speaker 1: then we upgraded to some fancier equipment, but in any case,
Speaker 1: so that if you're like, this doesn't sound as good
Speaker 1: as it normally does, that's why UM. Also before we
Speaker 1: jump into the episode, we wanted to address something that
Speaker 1: we have had the habit of doing in the past,
Speaker 1: but we have been we've become more aware of this
Speaker 1: thing that we're doing and we have been phasing it out.
Speaker 1: And what it is is the use of certain phrases
Speaker 1: or just certain language that is disparaging of mental illness
Speaker 1: and is able list and what I mean what we
Speaker 1: mean by that is we use in this episode and
Speaker 1: others passed phrases like oh, that's crazy or that's insane
Speaker 1: or um etcetera. From from that line of thinking, this
Speaker 1: is still very common language that a lot of people use,
Speaker 1: and we would encourage you to try to scale back
Speaker 1: on it, get rid of it, not include that in
Speaker 1: your language anymore, because like we said, it is disparaging
Speaker 1: of mental illness and is able list. And so if
Speaker 1: you are interested, we will leave some uh some links
Speaker 1: in the notes of this episode, UM in case you
Speaker 1: have any questions about um certain words, uses of words.
Speaker 1: We want to UM educate our listeners just as our
Speaker 1: listeners have educated us. These are words that have since
Speaker 1: been worked out of the show and our lives, and
Speaker 1: we hope to continue to do better. And you know,
Speaker 1: if if these are still words in your daily rotation, uh,
Speaker 1: there are so many wonderful substitutes. That's the thing about words.
Speaker 1: You don't need to use uh, words that are disparaging
Speaker 1: to be well because guess what, there's other words. It's
Speaker 1: true synonyms exist, so we wanted to acknowledge that as well.
Speaker 1: Oh and another thing we want to be better about
Speaker 1: doing moving forward is to include content warnings for episodes
Speaker 1: in which we discuss topics that are sensitive and potentially triggering.
Speaker 1: So in this episode, we'd like to include a content
Speaker 1: warning regarding our discussion of physical and emotional abuse. So
Speaker 1: there's that, And and we also wanted to update our
Speaker 1: history with the movie because we uh we recorded this
Speaker 1: episode just a couple months, I mean the two maybe
Speaker 1: months after this movie came out. Um, and so you
Speaker 1: know the the movie has like whatever eight couples in
Speaker 1: age that we talked about eight couple that's not even
Speaker 1: accurate or whatever. It's older. It's much older, right, And
Speaker 1: and you're especially your relationship with that Jamie has grown
Speaker 1: and gotten more special, grown and deepened. Yeah. So for me,
Speaker 1: I mean we both saw the movie in theaters a
Speaker 1: couple of times. I really enjoyed it. I haven't watched
Speaker 1: it though since we recorded the episode, aside from when
Speaker 1: I rewatched it a couple of days ago, just too
Speaker 1: because I know we were doing this episode and wanted
Speaker 1: to refresh my memory. Um. But for you, Jamie, the
Speaker 1: reason so you're releasing this as your birthday episode because
Speaker 1: it's become such an important movie for you, So tell
Speaker 1: us about that. It's well, I guess when this movie
Speaker 1: came out, I knew it was one of my favorite
Speaker 1: movies already because I saw it nine times in theaters,
Speaker 1: which I have never done before and never did since
Speaker 1: this episode Slash. This movie came out during this wonderful
Speaker 1: time where movie pass was a thing that worked and
Speaker 1: it actually cost ten dollars, and so the only thing
Speaker 1: I used my movie pass for was to see I
Speaker 1: Tania at nine times and I unsubscribed and then movie passed.
Speaker 1: Employ did and no one has heard from her since.
Speaker 1: But so I saw this movie nine times within two months.
Speaker 1: I think I just loved it. There is like I've
Speaker 1: always been very attached to the Tanya Harding myth. Basically
Speaker 1: it's a culture, you know, an American myth. At this point.
Speaker 1: I my first cartoon I ever made was about Tanya Harding.
Speaker 1: Remember that. Really it was like, yeah, it was forever ago,
Speaker 1: but I really always I'm sure to talk about in
Speaker 1: the episode two, but I was always very attached to her,
Speaker 1: just kind of as like someone who came from like
Speaker 1: the lower middle class. I think Tanya came up from
Speaker 1: an even lower class than than I was from. But
Speaker 1: I just was really, I really it really spoke to
Speaker 1: me how determined she was and how she didn't take
Speaker 1: shipped from people, and kind of how that attitude results
Speaker 1: in being punished by the culture that you live in,
Speaker 1: especially at the time that she was skating. And I
Speaker 1: think the movie is so well done. It's written and
Speaker 1: directed by a man, and yet I like it and
Speaker 1: it's sometimes men don't do horrible work. Really, they really
Speaker 1: figured it out this time. I I rewatched this movie
Speaker 1: last week, and I still love it so much. It
Speaker 1: makes me cry a lot. It's the only time I've
Speaker 1: ever been impressed by Sebastian stan Uh, Margot Robbie's at
Speaker 1: her best. I just I think it is such a
Speaker 1: fun and engaging movie that manages to make I think,
Speaker 1: like takes a lot of very serious topics and treats
Speaker 1: them with the weight and the respect they deserve, but
Speaker 1: also don't make it like a depression experience. I think
Speaker 1: it's still like a super engaging and fun movie. And
Speaker 1: after the last time I saw this movie in a theater,
Speaker 1: I was seeing this movie in theaters as late as July. Wow,
Speaker 1: because I think you remember this when I say it's
Speaker 1: because as they did a rooftop screening of Ae Tania
Speaker 1: in downtown Los Angeles and Tanya Harding was there, And
Speaker 1: it's here that I wanted to just acknowledge because it's
Speaker 1: just interesting, I guess of like, I mean, obviously, never
Speaker 1: meet your heroes, but this one stung a little Like
Speaker 1: Tanya Harding very sweet, but she gave kind of like
Speaker 1: some opening statements and I actually I'm going to cite
Speaker 1: myself here. I wrote a piece about it at the
Speaker 1: time for a paste magazine called Falling out of Love
Speaker 1: a Tanya Harding, and that kind of says what I'm
Speaker 1: saying now. Just like Tanya Harding was a kind of
Speaker 1: a hero of mine, and like she overcame so much
Speaker 1: and was like, you know, maintained her dignity through a
Speaker 1: really difficult experience. But then when you hear her talk
Speaker 1: about her political views, you're like, oh, dear, she didn't
Speaker 1: get explicitly into her political views in that, but there
Speaker 1: was enough. There was some uh so bat signaling to
Speaker 1: some things I really don't agree with, and it I mean,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure like our our listeners, everyone at some
Speaker 1: point in their life realizes that you have to idolize
Speaker 1: the idea and the message and not the person. But
Speaker 1: this was one of those moments for me where I
Speaker 1: was just like I wanted, you know, I wanted to
Speaker 1: agree with Tanya Harding on everything. I wanted her to
Speaker 1: have like views that I aligned with, but um simply
Speaker 1: wasn't the way it went. But I still really love
Speaker 1: the movie. I feel like it is just my favorite
Speaker 1: movie ever. I watch it all the time I wanted
Speaker 1: to fall asleep. I watch it to call like, I
Speaker 1: just it's my movie. I love it. Yeah. Cool, Well,
Speaker 1: I think with that we can just launch into you know,
Speaker 1: in a movie when they do like kind of like
Speaker 1: it's some sort of call that effect. It's like transition
Speaker 1: is like a ripple, like like the ripple effect, like
Speaker 1: the dream, like the flashbacks. It's imagine that whatever the
Speaker 1: audio version of that is. We that's so okay. I
Speaker 1: Tania is if You're not aware? Is the new Tanya
Speaker 1: Harding biopic starring Margot Robbie as Tanya Harding and Alison
Speaker 1: Janney as Tanya Harding's mother, and a guy from Gossip
Speaker 1: Girl as Jeff Lally hot hot hot Jeff really hot
Speaker 1: hot hot in this movie distracting, can't deal with it,
Speaker 1: and I'm very upset that I think he's hot because
Speaker 1: his character is horrible. His character is and as a person,
Speaker 1: he's a horrible person, and real life Jeff really not hot.
Speaker 1: Basically everyone real life in this story not hot. But
Speaker 1: it's a movie so hot. Sorry, I just explained how
Speaker 1: movies worked like regular but like way hotter. So So
Speaker 1: it's about for Olympics, where a media frenzy surrounding Tanya
Speaker 1: Hardening when she allegedly was involved with whacking Nancy Kerrigan,
Speaker 1: who is barely addressed in this story very intentionally and
Speaker 1: we'll get there too. But so it's got a lot
Speaker 1: of buns of Marco Robbie. People loved her performance, Alison
Speaker 1: Janny queer icon, Alison Jenny's character Janson Janny and Jenny
Speaker 1: queer icon, but I would argue Alison Janny and a
Speaker 1: fur coat with a parent queer icon like easily. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the movie. If you haven't seen it, I would
Speaker 1: highly recommend sing it. I think it's such a fun,
Speaker 1: well done movie. I love it. Are The one thing
Speaker 1: I was surprised about with this movie is I mean
Speaker 1: when they say I Tanya, they're not kidding. Nancy Kerrigan
Speaker 1: is like left out of this story, which I think.
Speaker 1: I don't even think she has any lines except for
Speaker 1: when she's like why after she gets hit exactly yeah no.
Speaker 1: And then they have whoever the actress that was on
Speaker 1: set for two or three days playing the part of
Speaker 1: Nancy Karen, They just have her basically reenacting news footage,
Speaker 1: which is weird because it's like in all like the
Speaker 1: more recent documentaries about this, there's a lot of talk
Speaker 1: about how like Nancy was also done a huge disservice
Speaker 1: by the media and not I mean, not as significant
Speaker 1: as Tanya obviously, but you know, Nancy didn't do anything.
Speaker 1: I feel like Nancy often gets framed as like this,
Speaker 1: like prissy bitch when Nancy, which they this was like
Speaker 1: the thing that I was like, Oh, they're really not
Speaker 1: going to mention this in the movie at all. Nancy
Speaker 1: was just as poor as Tanya Harding. She was not
Speaker 1: from an abusive family, but she was also like a
Speaker 1: blue collar gal who was reframed by the media to
Speaker 1: not seem like that and was like held accountable for like, oh,
Speaker 1: look at this rich bitch when she wasn't. And so
Speaker 1: that's all I have to say. I just thought it
Speaker 1: was she she's really glossed over. I mean, this movie
Speaker 1: is we're seeing it through Tanya's eyes, and so I
Speaker 1: guess it's like Nancy's a pressy bitch. But I thought
Speaker 1: a little more could have been done to just acknowledge that.
Speaker 1: May I posit a theory sure that this movie is
Speaker 1: the first of a figure skating extended universe cinematic universe
Speaker 1: and there's going to be and I Nancy. Could I
Speaker 1: play Nancy Kerrigan? Yes, I cast you rememb Burnett from Massachusetts.
Speaker 1: I could do it. Yeah, you've done ballet figure skating.
Speaker 1: His ballet on ice, right, dude, exactly. Don't send me
Speaker 1: hate mail for saying so. I feel like there's someone
Speaker 1: out there. No, it's I mean figures hard. I could not.
Speaker 1: I couldn't hang. I tried it when I was little,
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. I got really good at roller skating
Speaker 1: as a kid, and not roller blades roller skates. Oh sorry,
Speaker 1: yeah they're different. Sorry didn't but I never I never
Speaker 1: ice skated until like a couple of years ago. Uh,
Speaker 1: and some of the skills do transfer over. Because all
Speaker 1: my friends were like falling because I've never like roller
Speaker 1: skated or ice skated before. But I was like pretty
Speaker 1: good beginner and they were like, Caitlin, how are you
Speaker 1: so good at this? I'm like, bitch, I roller skated.
Speaker 1: You're you have a lot of interesting hidden talent. You
Speaker 1: really do. Thank you. Recap. Yeah, let's recap Tania. So
Speaker 1: it's this cast of actors reenacting both interviews that are
Speaker 1: like direct to camera and then also the story events
Speaker 1: as they unfold. So every actor we see, we see
Speaker 1: they're basically playing the same character over the course of
Speaker 1: almost three decades. Like I think Margot Robbie plays Tanya
Speaker 1: between ages fifteen and forty and then yeah, so you
Speaker 1: see like older Tanya played by Margot Robbie in interview style,
Speaker 1: same thing with what's his name, Stan Sebastian Stan Stan
Speaker 1: hot hot Okay, I know he's so hot as young
Speaker 1: Jeff Gluely, as older Jeff Gluey without weird goatee horrible.
Speaker 1: The mustache is better. He's got somehow, he's got a
Speaker 1: face that works for a real life Jeff Gluly did
Speaker 1: look like straight up disgusting with the mustache. But I
Speaker 1: mean this again, it's like movie hotness of just like
Speaker 1: I guess you can just wear that and it's hot.
Speaker 1: Well shit, Okay, my favorite performance in this movie. Margot
Speaker 1: Robbie is awesome. Alison Jenny is awesome. My favorite performance
Speaker 1: in this movie. I have to look at this guy's
Speaker 1: name because he is like, I think this is his
Speaker 1: big first like the guy who plays s Yeah, unbelieving
Speaker 1: Paul Walter Houser. I hope he's in everything. He was
Speaker 1: so good. This is a breakout role for him. I hope. So, dude,
Speaker 1: he was so fucking funny. I know, and I wasn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that I've never done like a real
Speaker 1: deep dive on Sean Ekart and I didn't realize how
Speaker 1: fully delusional he was. And then when they do at
Speaker 1: the end, they do like the side by side to
Speaker 1: see how exactly they re enacted interviews. The Sean card
Speaker 1: interviews are crazy. He's like, probably work in covert ops,
Speaker 1: counter terrorism, like espionage, and you're like, what, They're like, Sean,
Speaker 1: but you don't. He goes but he's like, but we
Speaker 1: checked in, you don't. He's like, oh, but I do.
Speaker 1: I do? And I He's so fucking funny, and like,
Speaker 1: I just shout out to Paul walter Hauser wherever you are.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're listening. I just thought he was like brilliant,
Speaker 1: and I hope he's in everything now. Yeah, he was.
Speaker 1: So he was so great. So I Tania the story.
Speaker 1: We follow Iitania through her ice skating Iania harding, how
Speaker 1: are we going to record another episode after this? It's
Speaker 1: gonna be great. We followed Tania where I think she
Speaker 1: is named through her finger skating career, which starts when
Speaker 1: she's a soft four, which means three. So we meet
Speaker 1: her mother, Lavanna, who is how to describe her, She's overbearing,
Speaker 1: she is emotionally abusive, she's physically abusive. She is one
Speaker 1: of those parents who look at all the sacrifices I've
Speaker 1: made for you and you don't appreciate anything. And she's
Speaker 1: a very bad parent. We'll hit on this in a
Speaker 1: bunch of different places, but this movie. People have differing
Speaker 1: opinions on how this movie does with the topic of class.
Speaker 1: I think it does pretty well, especially based on the
Speaker 1: fact that from what I get, and if you know differently,
Speaker 1: please hit us up. But pretty much every event described
Speaker 1: in this movie is based on anecdotal evidence and interviews.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of tricky to make the argument of
Speaker 1: like they're making these white trash people look like a joke,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, they did confirm that this is
Speaker 1: what they did down to like that guy Derek's like
Speaker 1: running through a fucking pane of glass to get like
Speaker 1: that really happened. There's footage of that happening. Yeah, Like
Speaker 1: all the stuff in the movie basically is stuff that
Speaker 1: real life idiots. Did Wait, did it happen where he
Speaker 1: bash just head through it? Because he had the baton,
Speaker 1: he could have broken the glass with I guess that's possible.
Speaker 1: I don't know anyways, the way this movie deals with class,
Speaker 1: because it does make a commentary without changing the story.
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I mean, I was fortunate to
Speaker 1: have parents that were not abusive and are great. They're
Speaker 1: my problematic faiths, But I do think it was like
Speaker 1: interesting setting up this dynamic and showing this dynamic that
Speaker 1: I saw in a lot of my friends growing up,
Speaker 1: of like parents in poor communities being too hard on
Speaker 1: their kids, with the implied logic being like I needed
Speaker 1: toffen you up for the world, or you're going to
Speaker 1: end up just like me, which is kind of the
Speaker 1: message that's kind of Tanya's fear throughout the movie is
Speaker 1: that she's going to be exactly like her mom and
Speaker 1: be a waitress, which she is for a while, and
Speaker 1: it seems like and it's never explicitly stated, but my
Speaker 1: takeaway was that like Levana was basically like, I'm going
Speaker 1: to be really, really really hard on you to the
Speaker 1: point where it is illegal abusive. I'm gonna throw a
Speaker 1: knife at you, but the overarching thing to be like,
Speaker 1: I have to toughen you up because you're being set
Speaker 1: up to fail by the world, and that is like
Speaker 1: a parent child dynamic I've seen before, and I feel
Speaker 1: like I haven't seen a ton on screen, so I
Speaker 1: thought it was I mean, it was like scary, but like,
Speaker 1: I don't know it worked for me or if you
Speaker 1: do see it on screen, it's I feel like it's
Speaker 1: often not the main character. It will be like the
Speaker 1: main character's friend who who needs rescuing. Yeah. An example
Speaker 1: that comes to mind as the craft where sure right right,
Speaker 1: And I'm if I thought about it, I'm sure I
Speaker 1: could come up with others, but yeah, I don't know. Like,
Speaker 1: so there were certain moments with her. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that seems like my aunt or like my friend's mom
Speaker 1: of like some lines I wrote down where like you
Speaker 1: were soft nice makes you ship like basically these repeated
Speaker 1: enforcements like you have to be really tough on yourself
Speaker 1: and on everyone in your life or you're not going
Speaker 1: to survive um, which is you know, I see where
Speaker 1: she's coming from. I don't hard disagree with our approach
Speaker 1: to literally everything, but but I think the more common
Speaker 1: depiction in media over arch, Like there's so many FU
Speaker 1: movies about like rich children and their distant parents, not
Speaker 1: poor children, and they're overbearing to the point of abusive parents.
Speaker 1: But I think in the real world those are just
Speaker 1: as common. I mean, so there's I think it'll take
Speaker 1: me the whole episode to get through the recap, but
Speaker 1: essentially it just it follows Tanya and her figure skating career,
Speaker 1: starting from a very early age. She's a standout. She's
Speaker 1: very good, even if like she's a she's a stand
Speaker 1: up comic Harshly Season three, Tiny Harding story, the marvelous
Speaker 1: Mrs Harden. So she is great, she trains a ton,
Speaker 1: her mom does pay for all of her lessons, and
Speaker 1: is supportive in her pursuit of becoming a figure skater.
Speaker 1: But again, that's like kind of like another class commentary thing,
Speaker 1: where like I think we're like children of poor families
Speaker 1: often feel like they are an investment if they're doing
Speaker 1: anything extra, where like kids who are from wealthier backgrounds
Speaker 1: are able to try more extracurriculars and and there's less
Speaker 1: of like a pressure to be like, well, you better
Speaker 1: have fucking fun. Supportive in the sense that she was
Speaker 1: paying for it, that she was there, but also inflicting
Speaker 1: a whole lot of psychological warfare on Tanya. It was
Speaker 1: like it was basically a contract for abuse of Like,
Speaker 1: in order for you to do the thing that makes
Speaker 1: you happy, I have to be able to fucking be
Speaker 1: all out abusive to you at all times. And that's
Speaker 1: the only way she could keep doing it. Right. So
Speaker 1: we see Tanya's progress as a figure skater into her
Speaker 1: teens in early twenties, and this is also around the
Speaker 1: time that she meets Jeff Galuley. I don't know how
Speaker 1: old he is when they meet, but she's only fifteen
Speaker 1: and he's probably I think he's I think he's supposed
Speaker 1: to be nineteen or twenty. Well, that's upsetting. So they
Speaker 1: start dating and then he starts becoming abusive toward her
Speaker 1: as well, both physically and emotionally. Her career starts to
Speaker 1: take off. She starts winning a lot of competitions. She
Speaker 1: moves out of Lavana's home because she's had it up
Speaker 1: to here with her, so she moves out with Jeff.
Speaker 1: The abuse continues with him. Like she's winning national competitions
Speaker 1: and the Olympics are on the horizon and then she
Speaker 1: gets a death threat called on her, and so this
Speaker 1: is there was like a weird and this is all historical.
Speaker 1: It's not weird because it you know, happened, but like
Speaker 1: there's like, she goes to the Olympics and two she
Speaker 1: does not deliver. It's implied it's because she's like maybe
Speaker 1: like drinking too much and like got out of shape,
Speaker 1: which you know, is a little shamy, but also seemed
Speaker 1: like there was some truth in that and that was
Speaker 1: like had to do with why she which ties into
Speaker 1: her abusive relationship with Jeff. But she was in an
Speaker 1: abusive relationship and was not medicating exactly, like she didn't
Speaker 1: she didn't deliver at the first Olympics, which would normally
Speaker 1: be a death sentence because by the time the next
Speaker 1: one Olympics come around four years later, she would be,
Speaker 1: in theory too old, which is crazy. She would have
Speaker 1: been twenty five, but I guess an ice skater years
Speaker 1: too old. But then there's this thing that really happened
Speaker 1: where they're like, actually, I don't know what the rationalists,
Speaker 1: but they're like, we're going to have the Winter Olympics
Speaker 1: again in two years, which would be like perfect timing,
Speaker 1: and so there's kind of this there's a bunch of
Speaker 1: great montages in this movie again, just like a series
Speaker 1: of really stellar training montages that I really loved to
Speaker 1: having handed music. It was great. So she trains, she
Speaker 1: starts training again, and she's kind of like she got
Speaker 1: it back. She dumped Jeff. She's like on a tear.
Speaker 1: She's doing great, and then she takes Jeff back and
Speaker 1: then okay, right exactly, So she takes Jeff back because
Speaker 1: she's doing competitions and the judges are like, you're just
Speaker 1: not the image we want to project. We want a
Speaker 1: wholesome American family, and she's like, I don't have that.
Speaker 1: So she gets back with Jeff to basically placate the
Speaker 1: judges and be like, look look at this family I
Speaker 1: have because they get married at one point earlier in
Speaker 1: the story. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's it's like to basically,
Speaker 1: yea project the image that they're going for. And then
Speaker 1: there's like this big competition and that if you place,
Speaker 1: I forget exactly what it's called. It's like, if you
Speaker 1: place in this competition, you are considered for the Olympic team.
Speaker 1: But if you don't place in the competition, you can't
Speaker 1: be considered for the Olympic team, so high stake ship.
Speaker 1: And prior to this, a death threat is called on
Speaker 1: Tanya and it freaks her out and they're like, oh crap,
Speaker 1: like this is going to ruin my chances. And then
Speaker 1: this is where you know the stories where Paul walter
Speaker 1: Hauser really starts to fucking shine. But he has this
Speaker 1: idea where basically Jeff wants to impress Tanya or somehow,
Speaker 1: like I think, honestly, like get her to be indebted
Speaker 1: to him a little more so she won't leave him,
Speaker 1: because that's how he thinks, because he's a manipulates, a manipulator,
Speaker 1: but he's so stupid that he's not even good at it.
Speaker 1: But so he's saying like, oh, it'll approve Chania chances
Speaker 1: if we call it a death threat on Nancy. And
Speaker 1: then Sean, who also called in the death threat Antania,
Speaker 1: we learned later and that's true. Sean has literally he's
Speaker 1: just so fucking like he was just smart enough to
Speaker 1: be extremely infuriating because he's like just smart enough to
Speaker 1: be like you should have known better. But whatever he's smarted,
Speaker 1: I don't like, is he Sean smarter than Jeff, but
Speaker 1: that's saying nothing. Jeff's literally dumb as a rock. So
Speaker 1: Sean's like, because I think that the movie goes way
Speaker 1: out of its way to be like toxic, toxic, toxic.
Speaker 1: This character, Sean, especially his toxic masculinity, is kind of
Speaker 1: uses a punch line over and over in this movie,
Speaker 1: which I hadn't seen it portrayed in other places. But
Speaker 1: I don't know. I thought it was funny, and I
Speaker 1: thought it's good to make toxic masculinity, you know, projected.
Speaker 1: It's like, you look like a fucking idiot. But so
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, we need to do something to Nancy,
Speaker 1: and Jeff said, okay, let's mail in letters snail, which
Speaker 1: is like, you're a snail mail a death threat. Incredible idea. Anyways,
Speaker 1: Sean takes matters into his own hands and plans the
Speaker 1: fucking whack that the whack hurt around the world, right,
Speaker 1: which is carried out by people who are somehow even stupider.
Speaker 1: It's just a well of stupidity that just a gaping
Speaker 1: mom of idiots, and how involved Tanny was in the
Speaker 1: planning and execution of these letter death threats. Question, you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm not even going to bother positing my own theories.
Speaker 1: We'll never know. We can hit on this later too,
Speaker 1: But like, I don't think Tanya Harding is like a
Speaker 1: good or nice person, and I don't think that she's
Speaker 1: like completely telling the truth. But I don't think that
Speaker 1: that makes her story any less valid or interesting or
Speaker 1: worth telling. But it's like I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 1: she it's it's clear that she knew about some portion
Speaker 1: of it. I think this movie plays it down press
Speaker 1: a little too much, but like we'll never know. Sure,
Speaker 1: So the attack on Nancy Kerrigan's knee happens, and then
Speaker 1: I think that the sequence of events is that Nancy
Speaker 1: obviously can't compete after she's whacked. At these trials. Tanya
Speaker 1: does really well at the trials places it looks like
Speaker 1: she's going to be on the Olympic team. The question
Speaker 1: is will Nancy be allowed to be on the Olympic
Speaker 1: team since she couldn't compete in the pre limbs And
Speaker 1: that part is like it makes sense that it's left
Speaker 1: out of this movie, but it is pretty like incredible
Speaker 1: how she completely I'm like crying, she like she like
Speaker 1: totally buckled down, did not pay attention to any of
Speaker 1: the media coming out and just like had her her
Speaker 1: like family and support system totally blackballed everyone who was like,
Speaker 1: she's training, she's getting better, and in six weeks went
Speaker 1: from like whacked me to like that recovery time was insane.
Speaker 1: It shouldn't have been like it is. Pretty I just
Speaker 1: don't think Nancy gets enough credit. I think she's also
Speaker 1: she's not as interesting historical figure as Tanya Harding, but
Speaker 1: she was pretty fucking cool. So because Nancy is able
Speaker 1: to do this amazing turnaround, she's allowed on the Olympic team.
Speaker 1: And also because and then I think that this is
Speaker 1: explicitly stated in the movie too, and has been said
Speaker 1: by Tanya Harding and interviews. It's like the media who's
Speaker 1: been like investing all this time and energy into this story,
Speaker 1: is not just going to be like, we're not gonna
Speaker 1: let Nancy compete like people wanted a huge event. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And then the movie ends with they both compete in
Speaker 1: the Olympics, both Tanya Tanya and Nancy. Tanya does not place.
Speaker 1: Nancy Kerrigan gets the silver medal. Tanya's skating career is
Speaker 1: over also because she goes to court and the judge
Speaker 1: is like, you're never allowed to skate in any sort
Speaker 1: of competitions ever. Again, She's like pleading with the judge,
Speaker 1: please you have like, this is my whole life. This
Speaker 1: is the only thing I know want to do. I
Speaker 1: don't have an education. That was like the most impactful
Speaker 1: part of the entire movie for I did not see that.
Speaker 1: That was like I felt like one of the big
Speaker 1: successes of them because I knew that that was how
Speaker 1: the story ended, but it never really occurred to me
Speaker 1: exactly how devastating that was for her. Where that was
Speaker 1: like truly all she had. So if her involvement was
Speaker 1: as low as the movie would have you believe, that's
Speaker 1: horrible and it's like it does show how women are punished. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was That was such a gut wrenching moment to
Speaker 1: watch of like that would be I was thinking, I
Speaker 1: was like, that would be like if someone told me
Speaker 1: that could never do stand up again. But then I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, it's like would be the worst day.
Speaker 1: I would be like, you know what, I wouldn't cry.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't cry and offered to do jail time instead
Speaker 1: when the people are that's so fun. It was like
Speaker 1: I'd rather go to jail than not be able to
Speaker 1: go to an open like ever again open jail. So
Speaker 1: it doesn't. So then she becomes we see her like
Speaker 1: stint as a lady boxer. I have an autographed picture
Speaker 1: or of Tanya Harding during her boxing days. Yeah, I really,
Speaker 1: I'm deep into it. And I only say lady boxer
Speaker 1: because that's what she calls herself. She's just a boxer,
Speaker 1: ay for her. Yes, So that's the story. Let's take
Speaker 1: a quick break and then we'll come right back. There's
Speaker 1: a lot to digest here. There's a lot to discuss.
Speaker 1: One of the main points I wanted to bring up
Speaker 1: was the kind of ongoing theme she's talking about, how
Speaker 1: figure skating is this sport where like the judges want
Speaker 1: you to be this old timey version of what a
Speaker 1: woman is supposed to be, and her sort of recognition
Speaker 1: of how she was never going to be that because
Speaker 1: she didn't have the money to afford all the pretty
Speaker 1: costumes and she chopped wood every morning, so like she
Speaker 1: didn't have just sort of like a little delicate frame
Speaker 1: and everything like that. That was one thing that I
Speaker 1: thought could have been touched on a little more. I
Speaker 1: aggree with me that I was surprised it didn't because
Speaker 1: that is such a big that informed the direction of
Speaker 1: her career. So Mutch and I think that that was
Speaker 1: like why the people who liked Tiny Harding really liked her,
Speaker 1: because she, like, she was so athletically good that there
Speaker 1: was no you know, like even though she was not
Speaker 1: traditionally feminine and like had an athletic build, which makes
Speaker 1: fucking sense for an athlete, but you weren't supposed to uh,
Speaker 1: and didn't have a ton of money, but she was
Speaker 1: so good that people like could not deny her, you know,
Speaker 1: like that was cool, but it's we see we see
Speaker 1: it a few times. She gets into an argument with
Speaker 1: judges and says, I'm making my costumes, which is true,
Speaker 1: she was making. She had so many disadvantages, but they're
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, we're not really well we're looking for
Speaker 1: but you're so good that we can't tell you to
Speaker 1: go funk yourself until they found the first excuse to
Speaker 1: tell her to go funcker. And I think that that
Speaker 1: also directly ties into how she's treated. You know, she
Speaker 1: was characterized right away. It's like white trash who they
Speaker 1: were looking for an excuse to get rid of her,
Speaker 1: and the second they found one, they got rid of
Speaker 1: her forever. And not only her sort of like appearance
Speaker 1: and the way she presented herself physically. It was also
Speaker 1: like from what I gathered, like her music choices, you know,
Speaker 1: she did a lot of like hard rock and metal.
Speaker 1: She like wore the blue nail polish that her coach
Speaker 1: was like, no more of that. Like DAR say, she
Speaker 1: was a product of her fucking environment, you know, but
Speaker 1: that's not an environment that that sport respects, right exactly.
Speaker 1: So watching this, I mean I related to her because
Speaker 1: there's a part where she's talking about how she operates
Speaker 1: a forklift, chops wood and works at a hardware store
Speaker 1: and some like that, And I didn't read that exact
Speaker 1: same experience. But I grew up in a blue collar family,
Speaker 1: you know, working class. My dad had a forklift and
Speaker 1: a bacco. Part of my chores were to go into
Speaker 1: the woods and Sylvan because we lived in the middle
Speaker 1: of the woods. We would gone in the woods, we
Speaker 1: would gather firewood. I'd have to like load it onto
Speaker 1: this like wagon that was hooked up to the tractor.
Speaker 1: I had to drive the tractor like a farm girl.
Speaker 1: I'm not a well, I'm a wood's girl. We didn't
Speaker 1: have a far that we had a wood wood There's
Speaker 1: there's one. I had to fucking break leaves all the time.
Speaker 1: I had to mow grass all the time. I had
Speaker 1: to plow our driveway with a We had a pickup
Speaker 1: truck that my dad attached to snowplow too, So I
Speaker 1: had so many physical chores that I had to do
Speaker 1: all the time growing up, and I resented the hell
Speaker 1: out of it. Was like at school, I was like
Speaker 1: trying to be friends with like the popular kids whose
Speaker 1: parents were doctors and who didn't have to do like
Speaker 1: shovel dirt all the time. I was just like, please,
Speaker 1: no one find out about my home life. You know.
Speaker 1: I was kind of I was trying to fit in
Speaker 1: with like the quote unquote like what women are supposed
Speaker 1: to be and what you know, teen girls are supposed
Speaker 1: to be interested in and all that stuff. And I
Speaker 1: was just like like there was just like this whole
Speaker 1: internal struggle that I was like going through. But I
Speaker 1: also was like it's cool that I can like do
Speaker 1: all this stuff and like, but but that's not the
Speaker 1: message the world was sending you. No, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: At that time. I was city poor person, so we
Speaker 1: didn't do a ton of outside things. But like like
Speaker 1: a city mouse in a country mouse, we really are
Speaker 1: I forget what a country mouse to were, Like, I
Speaker 1: have no outdoor skills. But my first like full understanding
Speaker 1: of class in a meaningful way, it was. It was weird.
Speaker 1: I wasn't that aware of it growing up because everyone
Speaker 1: was poor and I'm kind of grateful for that, where
Speaker 1: there really wasn't. There was a class divide that I
Speaker 1: thought about a lot when I was watching Lady Bird
Speaker 1: of like there are people who had like more money
Speaker 1: than us that my parents would be like, Oh, just
Speaker 1: don't act like a fucking idiot around that. You know.
Speaker 1: There's little stuff like that. But I largely didn't become
Speaker 1: aware of my upbringing being poor until I was in
Speaker 1: college with a ton of rich Camerson richies. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that was like that was like an upsetting experience where
Speaker 1: for my entire college experience I started out by like
Speaker 1: I had to work full time through college or I
Speaker 1: would have had to drop out. And for the first
Speaker 1: half I would not tell anybody, and I was like
Speaker 1: very embarrassed about it, you know, I would just be
Speaker 1: like I'm busy. I can't like go to whatever. But
Speaker 1: it's because I was working till three am at the
Speaker 1: scary pizza place run by a sexual predator. I called
Speaker 1: the police on but like but and then in the
Speaker 1: second half of college, I I'm really glad that I did.
Speaker 1: But it's like I just was like, you know what,
Speaker 1: rich people are actually trash and I'm working really hard
Speaker 1: and I don't want to be like it sucks enough
Speaker 1: having to work these awful jobs, so I'm not like
Speaker 1: hide the fact that I'm doing it on like whatever,
Speaker 1: I'm working harder than you. Fuck you. All I had
Speaker 1: to say is like she had so much exs stuff
Speaker 1: to have to do and she was still one of
Speaker 1: the best, that's so the best, and they still didn't
Speaker 1: want to give it to her and I and I
Speaker 1: totally get that. That is like, a that's fucking frustrating
Speaker 1: to be like, I am working against so much more
Speaker 1: than the average person and you're still not you still
Speaker 1: won't give it to me, which is a thing that
Speaker 1: I mean, this is Poised is more of a class
Speaker 1: struggle than a gender one in this movie, at least
Speaker 1: because we were only seeing women figure skaters in this movie.
Speaker 1: There are certainly gender specific things to talk about in
Speaker 1: this movie, but for her it was more of a
Speaker 1: class struggle thing. But I think it is still very
Speaker 1: much like a parallel situation where women have to work
Speaker 1: a lot harder to get recognition, to be taken seriously
Speaker 1: than their male counterparts a lot of the time. Right,
Speaker 1: and then just like every time you're in a marginalized group,
Speaker 1: and then you add another marginalization on top of that, right,
Speaker 1: it gets infinitely we call that intersection, yes, Queen. So
Speaker 1: I enjoyed that this movie at least posed this theme
Speaker 1: of like a woman, her background, her appearance, the way
Speaker 1: she presents herself, the way she talks, her tastes and
Speaker 1: things doesn't align with the quote unquote old timey version
Speaker 1: of what a woman is supposed to be. As for
Speaker 1: the judges of this sport, and how that was a
Speaker 1: struggle for her, and how she sort of had to
Speaker 1: like suppress who she was to be able to fit in,
Speaker 1: but also how she was kind of like unapologetically being
Speaker 1: like fuck, there's that scene where that's the best she
Speaker 1: tells the judges, like how am I going to get
Speaker 1: to her a chance? Like why do you hate me?
Speaker 1: So much, and they keep saying like we also judge
Speaker 1: on presentation, and then she says like suck my dick,
Speaker 1: and it's like like you're like, oh no, but you're
Speaker 1: also like that so cool, like and she really did
Speaker 1: that do just like so cool. I mean, yeah, I
Speaker 1: wish that that was dug into a little bit more,
Speaker 1: but I do love that she I mean, she had
Speaker 1: and it comes up a million times. The triple axel
Speaker 1: is like her secret weapon to be able to stay
Speaker 1: in skating because she was the only one that could
Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, the movie makes a point several times
Speaker 1: to say that she was the first woman to attempt
Speaker 1: and complete it and be really good at it, Like
Speaker 1: ever right, her secret weapons weapon. Um, Okay, we would
Speaker 1: be remiss to not talk about the two central abusive
Speaker 1: relationships in this movie, one between Tanya and her mother,
Speaker 1: the other between Tanya and Jeff. We touched on her
Speaker 1: mother already, but I did think it was like kind
Speaker 1: of a different, unusual And again, it's a biopics, so
Speaker 1: they are just sort of displaying real alleged events and
Speaker 1: interactions with them. But it was interesting seeing a relationship
Speaker 1: between two women where I think that like it's a
Speaker 1: trope basically where it's like the older character is going
Speaker 1: to bully their student, as it were, into greatness. Whiplash
Speaker 1: is that exact thing. There's a I mean that there's
Speaker 1: other I had some written down, but I feel like
Speaker 1: it's usually it's either between like a male coach and
Speaker 1: a male student, or it's between like a male coach
Speaker 1: and a female student, and it's a sexualized relationship, which
Speaker 1: we see in Black Swan. Another example of a male
Speaker 1: coach and a female student is A Million Dollar Baby.
Speaker 1: I don't think I don't remember that movie super well.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any sexual component of their relationship.
Speaker 1: But at first he's like, I don't trying girls, and
Speaker 1: she's like, I'm the best though, I'm really good. He's like, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: I'm Clanniswood and or whatever, boring Clanniswood, fun clanny, but
Speaker 1: like yeah, but he like kind of you know, they
Speaker 1: develop a friendship, but it's like he a lot of
Speaker 1: that movie is him bullying her into getting really good.
Speaker 1: It's a dynamic we've seen a lot, I just we
Speaker 1: rarely see it between two men. And that is a
Speaker 1: component of Tanya and her mom's relationship, and it's abusive.
Speaker 1: I think it's like more of you see a more
Speaker 1: whiplet she kind of relationship. That was the closest parallel
Speaker 1: I could think of. There's a couple of different scenes
Speaker 1: where Levana just as like Tanya did her best when
Speaker 1: she was angry, and so we see Lavanna paying people
Speaker 1: to tell Tanya she sucks before she gets on the ice,
Speaker 1: like all this fucking sadistic, manipulative ship with the goal
Speaker 1: being in that way she'll do really good. And the
Speaker 1: other way that she would do that is by withholding
Speaker 1: praise at any cost. Where even when you know Tanya's
Speaker 1: landing triple actuals, doing stuff no one else can do,
Speaker 1: it's always well, this is what you did wrong. And
Speaker 1: Levana is abusive on so many different levels. It's just like, well,
Speaker 1: which do we pick. She is abusive on like a
Speaker 1: coachy kind of level, which is crazy because she can't
Speaker 1: fucking skate. But I think even more so than Tanya's
Speaker 1: actual coach Diane, who is not great and is very
Speaker 1: I think that she falls more in the bucket of
Speaker 1: like Tanya, you're not feminine enough, right, That's sort of
Speaker 1: the space she occupies. But Levana is like, you suck
Speaker 1: you're bad, and I'm going to tell you you're bad
Speaker 1: because that will make it good. And she gets enough
Speaker 1: results by doing that that she continues to do it
Speaker 1: and and it's bad. We sort of already touched on
Speaker 1: the class component of her abuse of like making it
Speaker 1: feel like Tanya owed her something, which is I think
Speaker 1: it's very common with kids in parents. Yeah, just like
Speaker 1: a kid feeling like an investment and like they have
Speaker 1: to do well because their parents are struggling in order
Speaker 1: for them to be able to do anything, which is
Speaker 1: an unfair pressure to put on a kid. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is so complicated, the issue of class
Speaker 1: in America. If you can believe no one, that's a
Speaker 1: complicated thing. But they're is that element, there's also just
Speaker 1: the element of like Levana is a fucking bad person
Speaker 1: who wants everyone around her to suffer and and I'd
Speaker 1: be curious. I mean, we see very little of Tanya's
Speaker 1: dad in this movie. It seems like they had a
Speaker 1: good relationship and that he was kind of the beta
Speaker 1: to Levana's alpha, to the way where twenty says later
Speaker 1: in the movie, well you hit dad, was like, Oh
Speaker 1: she hit dad? Okay, that's you know, an unusual abuse dynamic,
Speaker 1: but it's it seemed Levana is framed in the movie
Speaker 1: as a character who, for a number of reasons that
Speaker 1: are explained, wants everyone around her to suffer. And Tanya
Speaker 1: certainly suffered, and and also Levana is completely aware that
Speaker 1: Jeff is abusive towards Tanya and does basically nothing to
Speaker 1: stop it. And and it really just makes that one
Speaker 1: comment in that scene they have together where she says, like,
Speaker 1: what I forget The exact wording is like, um, you're
Speaker 1: done piece of ship who thinks she'd deserves to get hit?
Speaker 1: Right where you know, we can get the subtypes of
Speaker 1: what she's saying, which is that you don't deserve to
Speaker 1: get hit, but she's leading with you're a dumb piece
Speaker 1: of ship, but also she's hitting Tanya exactly and then
Speaker 1: and then Tanya responds by being like, well, where did
Speaker 1: I get that idea? The implications of that are obviously like, oh,
Speaker 1: I think I deserve to get hit because you hit
Speaker 1: me my entire life. There's yeah, and there's no subtlety
Speaker 1: in the way that issues presented. Yeah, but that's like good.
Speaker 1: I don't think that there should be like shades of
Speaker 1: gray presented like should this be? But it is interesting
Speaker 1: to me And Jeff is the less fleshed out character
Speaker 1: of the two between him and LaVona, but it is
Speaker 1: interesting to see, I think as of right now, I
Speaker 1: feel like, ultimately it is an interesting and I think
Speaker 1: kind of impactful choice to characterize an abuser a little bit.
Speaker 1: And you know, Alice and Jenny, there is a part
Speaker 1: in the movie where she says, like, my mom was
Speaker 1: nice and nothing happened, you know, and like, and that's why,
Speaker 1: that's why I amounted to nothing. I think was the
Speaker 1: implication of like, nice parents in poor communities raise unremarkable
Speaker 1: children seems to be her belief and that is a
Speaker 1: moment that reveals so much about that character and who
Speaker 1: she is. And it's like, do we want to see
Speaker 1: a three dimensional depiction of an abuser? In some ways,
Speaker 1: it's like you don't really want to introduce so like
Speaker 1: I don't want to be able to empathize with this person.
Speaker 1: But real life abusers have motivations and have elements and
Speaker 1: probably you know, not every single thing they have done
Speaker 1: in their entire life is the worst thing ever. And
Speaker 1: that is something that you struggle with, and that's part
Speaker 1: of the reason why abusive relationships are so hard to
Speaker 1: get out of because people are in them and people, right,
Speaker 1: I think it's dangerous to depict an abuser in a
Speaker 1: way that we might be empathetic or sympathetic. It's hard
Speaker 1: to them. I think it is though important to present
Speaker 1: them as kind of like three dimensional people, because then
Speaker 1: we can kind of start to learn, Okay, why are
Speaker 1: you this way? Is there anything about you that can
Speaker 1: be helped and made to not be that way? Like?
Speaker 1: Because oftentimes, yeah, and abuser depicted in media is just
Speaker 1: like very one dimensional. They just are sort of like
Speaker 1: pure evil kind of thing, and we don't understand why
Speaker 1: they're that way, or if we do, it's, you know,
Speaker 1: be an interesting villain character, but it doesn't if the
Speaker 1: objective is to get people to recognize people like this
Speaker 1: who may exist in their own life, that is not
Speaker 1: the way to go, right, Yeah, So I think it's
Speaker 1: it was actually like pretty responsible in the movie's part
Speaker 1: to depict Levana the way that she was, because she
Speaker 1: is a fleshed out character, But the movie also doesn't
Speaker 1: absolve her of anything, which is important and I thought
Speaker 1: was also effectively do I think there was one moment
Speaker 1: where I was like, giving this abusive women laugh lines,
Speaker 1: oh right, especially that part where she it's like whenever
Speaker 1: Tanya and Jeff's relationship has kind of like taken off
Speaker 1: and we don't see a while, and she's like, my
Speaker 1: fucking storylines disappearing right about now, and we're all like
Speaker 1: big laugh line. It's like, I don't know, there's some
Speaker 1: shades of gray there that I'm not totally comfortable with.
Speaker 1: But by and large, how she's treated in the in
Speaker 1: the movie narrative wise, I thought was interesting. And if
Speaker 1: that's the choice they're making to have a three dimensional abuser,
Speaker 1: the movie doesn't absolve her. It's clear that what she's
Speaker 1: doing isn't the wrong, but it offers some insight into
Speaker 1: why that maybe, and I thought that was an interesting choice.
Speaker 1: We don't get that as much with Jeff. I don't
Speaker 1: particularly care. Another element of the abusive relationship that I
Speaker 1: thought was very interesting and ultimately pretty effective was Tanya
Speaker 1: is the abused in both of these relationships. She's on
Speaker 1: the receiving end with her mother from the second she
Speaker 1: emerges from the womb, and then you know, shortly after
Speaker 1: it seems like she and Jeff had like three weeks
Speaker 1: that were really pleasant and then seven or eight years
Speaker 1: that we're fucking nightmare. But I think that and I
Speaker 1: need to do more thinking on this, and I want
Speaker 1: to bring more effective examples to the table in the future.
Speaker 1: But I feel like in general, there is this media
Speaker 1: trend of when women are portrayed as being an abusive
Speaker 1: relationships on screen. And I think actually a recent example
Speaker 1: with be Nicole Kidman's character in Big Little Lies. She's
Speaker 1: abused by her husband pretty brutally in that show, but
Speaker 1: her character is presented as kind of a perfect character
Speaker 1: of like, here's this woman who works really hard, does
Speaker 1: all of her domestic chores, is basically bringing her husband
Speaker 1: his meal and he wax it out of her hand
Speaker 1: and hits her. That sort of thing where we are
Speaker 1: seeing a depiction of abuse that is like hard. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's very hard to watch, and and it is I'm
Speaker 1: sure realistic to some people's experience, But these flawless women
Speaker 1: in abusive relationships, I think it's kind of a media
Speaker 1: trend where it's like, and she never did a whole
Speaker 1: thing wrong in her entire life, how could this person
Speaker 1: abuse her? Whereas in Tanya's abusive relationships. Tanya is a
Speaker 1: very flawed character. She focks up a lot, and and
Speaker 1: there are examples of times where she focks up in
Speaker 1: ways that have nothing to do with Jeff, for her mother.
Speaker 1: She fox up independently like a person would. So again,
Speaker 1: it's just like showing real people in abusive relationships. There's
Speaker 1: examples of Yeah, like Tanya fox up a lot in
Speaker 1: this movie and in her life, and like, it couldn't
Speaker 1: be more clear that just because you don't even have
Speaker 1: to like her to recognize that she doesn't deserve this abuse.
Speaker 1: And I just thought that that was something that I
Speaker 1: really haven't seen that much of, Like especially a woman
Speaker 1: in an abusive relationship where she can be a funk
Speaker 1: up and she is doing stuff. She's not a perfect
Speaker 1: person and she's receiving abuse and she doesn't deserve that.
Speaker 1: Where Yeah, seeing a seeing a character like that just
Speaker 1: sort of drew my attention to how rare it is
Speaker 1: to see a flawed character receive abuse in a way
Speaker 1: that it's still very clear that it's like, Yeah, that
Speaker 1: was something I thought about a lot. You know, that's
Speaker 1: really interesting. I think that's a symptom of so many
Speaker 1: movies that do depict an abusive relationship. It's caricatures almost.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of like archetypes. It's you know, not
Speaker 1: real people who are the characters of the story. So
Speaker 1: they don't seem as fleshed out or they it's you know,
Speaker 1: you see the writer being well, I want to make
Speaker 1: my character this way and and to me in some
Speaker 1: crazy way that justifies or doesn't the abuse they receive
Speaker 1: sort of things. So they're just like these not real
Speaker 1: people who the storyteller designs in the way that they
Speaker 1: think is going to serve their story bests. And oftentimes,
Speaker 1: like you said, it is like the what's the show called,
Speaker 1: pretty Little Little, Pretty pretty much? Yeah, I like to
Speaker 1: call it the Laura Dernan and I patch our. I'm
Speaker 1: never going to know the difference between Pretty Little Liars
Speaker 1: and Big Little Lies, two amazing shows. It's all you
Speaker 1: need to know. So it often we do see you know,
Speaker 1: a very kind of like perfect, prim proper woman who
Speaker 1: doesn't really have any flaws is the victim of abuse.
Speaker 1: I think that that's almost like another way to justify
Speaker 1: writing a female character that's unrealistically passive. Yeah, yeah, where
Speaker 1: like the female character receiving abuse is not doing anything
Speaker 1: wrong in any area of her life and she's punished.
Speaker 1: But and I think the writers of stories like that
Speaker 1: are like, look how tragic this is. They're like, look
Speaker 1: how much she doesn't deserve this, Whereas I think like
Speaker 1: those same people would be like, oh, but if the
Speaker 1: character's flawed, it makes her somehow deserve it a little
Speaker 1: bit more. And that's obviously not the message that anyone
Speaker 1: should be sending. So yeah, I think it is really
Speaker 1: interesting that Tanya is depicted as a flawed character and
Speaker 1: that does not make her deserve abuse. Just that was
Speaker 1: like something that really struck me with this movie. Or
Speaker 1: it's like that is so cool that And also I
Speaker 1: think that, like I'm saying, it's trumpe writing, like the
Speaker 1: perfect woman who is abused is also just like lazy writing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's easier to not write a character that behaves like
Speaker 1: a human, but but in this, in this movie, I
Speaker 1: just that was like one of my favorite elements of it.
Speaker 1: That was cool. Not that I want to see abusive
Speaker 1: relationships on screen every second of my life, but that
Speaker 1: was I thought, like really effectively done. Yeah, And and
Speaker 1: they really they don't spare the audience in the way
Speaker 1: the abuse is depicted. I mean, it's it's it's hard
Speaker 1: to it's yeah, it's hard. Let's take another break and
Speaker 1: then we'll come back for a more discussion. But speaking
Speaker 1: of real people, which is what this movie is about.
Speaker 1: That brings me to something I wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: regarding biopics and how most biopics are about men. Some
Speaker 1: of them are tortured geniuses. Other ones are about fucking
Speaker 1: mediocre as Helmet, including The Disaster Artist and Edward. Throw
Speaker 1: a fucking stick and you'll hit a man who has
Speaker 1: somehow had a movie made about his unremarkable life. So
Speaker 1: few biopics are about women. I did some quick googling
Speaker 1: and found a list of about twenty or so that
Speaker 1: people have heard of. There's more of film history. Yeah.
Speaker 1: A few of the more notable ones include this one
Speaker 1: Aitania FRIEDA hidden figure is Elizabeth the Iron Lady. A
Speaker 1: lot of these are kind of recent to Jackie, Lena, Queen,
Speaker 1: Julie and Julianne. And there's also What's Love Got to
Speaker 1: Do with It? Selena Gia, Aaron Brockovich, Monster Monster, Anternet,
Speaker 1: propoliss Love, Vien Rose, The Passion of Jona Ark, which
Speaker 1: is a long time ago that was a coal miner's daughter.
Speaker 1: So there's only there's a small handful of biopics about
Speaker 1: women and every other I mean, and the biopics is
Speaker 1: such a massive genre. There are so many. Oh, just
Speaker 1: any loser can have a movie made about their life
Speaker 1: and they're they're a man, and often in the case
Speaker 1: of Steve Jobs, which oh my god, if you have
Speaker 1: not seen the Ashton Kutcher Jobs vehicle, I saw it
Speaker 1: on my twenty first birthday and it was it's truly
Speaker 1: so remarkably bad that you have to see it, you
Speaker 1: would be you're just if you don't watch Jobs and
Speaker 1: figure out what the rules to the drinking game is.
Speaker 1: It just the movie basically gives it to you. Like,
Speaker 1: but if Auschers in a field talking about computer, like,
Speaker 1: what is happening? There's a time where Acton Gutcher is
Speaker 1: having an argument through a beated curtain, You're just like,
Speaker 1: what is happening? Yes, you gotta watch it, but but
Speaker 1: if you if you look at the list of biopics
Speaker 1: about women, by and large, they're about white women by
Speaker 1: and large. They're about straight women by and large. They're
Speaker 1: about women who have had massive success that have led
Speaker 1: these amazing last from what I can pick out, you know,
Speaker 1: like they're mostly triumph tales, with the exception of Titania
Speaker 1: and Monster. Those are the two I can see on
Speaker 1: on this list that involves a woman failing. Right, pretty bleak, Yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty pretty weak. And one might argue that, oh, well,
Speaker 1: there aren't more biopics about women because there aren't more
Speaker 1: no figures in history, And well, I would argue, yeah,
Speaker 1: history is written by the victors, which are there men? Yeah,
Speaker 1: people named Victor, written by metal bitch named Victor, So
Speaker 1: there are plenty of And if it seems like there
Speaker 1: aren't more notable figures from history who are women, it's
Speaker 1: because they don't get talked about, they don't get written about.
Speaker 1: I've been written. Or if there are actually fewer, it's
Speaker 1: because women haven't been allowed to be fucking politicians until
Speaker 1: two seconds ago. It's because women weren't allowed to be
Speaker 1: any like so many things, leaders of any industry or
Speaker 1: even allowed in the industry can't wait for I RBG.
Speaker 1: The RBG movie is gonna be fucking tight. Also, there
Speaker 1: is sort of a weird trend in some of these
Speaker 1: biopics where it's like, and this is I think this
Speaker 1: is a biopic trend overall, but it is maybe because
Speaker 1: there's so few about women. It's like, come on, there
Speaker 1: is some that it's like and at the end she's murdered,
Speaker 1: where that's that is several on this list of like
Speaker 1: what made her life so remarkable was that she died
Speaker 1: in a gross sexy way, and you're just like, fuck,
Speaker 1: we come on, we got watch James Franco saw his
Speaker 1: leg off, and you can't have a movie about Ruth
Speaker 1: Bader Ginsburg grow up. There's movies about sucking civil like
Speaker 1: the Wrong Side of the Civil War, and there's biopics
Speaker 1: about Southern generals and the come on, what do you
Speaker 1: how many times is Leonardo DiCaprio going to play someone
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties Before I get my Ruth Bader
Speaker 1: Ginsberg movie, I'm now married to it. There there's not
Speaker 1: to say that there's not good biopics about men. There are,
Speaker 1: but the fact that there are so many male figures
Speaker 1: that have more than one biopic about them that is
Speaker 1: not a problem that the female equivalent has. You're not
Speaker 1: finding like God, which Steve John's biopics should I watch?
Speaker 1: You could? Literally there's three of them. There's three of them.
Speaker 1: Should I watch Lincoln or should I watch Young Mr Lincoln?
Speaker 1: And all of them? And this doesn't even include all
Speaker 1: the fucking stupid like History Channel documentaries blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: what or whatever like And I mean, if we just
Speaker 1: major release rainstream Hollywood biopics, if we go before n
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a million male biopics about the random
Speaker 1: ist men in existence, like a randomized video game character.
Speaker 1: They're like, we have to have a three hour epic
Speaker 1: about this amazing man's journey. ACTO. Just take this opportunity
Speaker 1: to say that Citizen Kane, which is loosely based on
Speaker 1: such a drag William Randolph Hurst, Yes, it is the
Speaker 1: worst movie I've ever seen. I hate Citizen Kane. Funk
Speaker 1: that movie. It's so fucking bother your sucking sled, get
Speaker 1: over it and suck off. I don't like Citizen King.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's not that I don't think it's
Speaker 1: the worst babe of all time. I dated a guy
Speaker 1: who's really into Citizen Kane for a while, to the
Speaker 1: point where he tried to remake Citizens with with and
Speaker 1: you're exactly we're talking about with prop comedy oh, and
Speaker 1: it was halfway shot before someone told him it was
Speaker 1: a fucking terrible idea, which is like one of my
Speaker 1: favorite anecdotes of all time because I was I was
Speaker 1: complicit and being like everyone thought it was a bad idea.
Speaker 1: But people hate telling men that their idea is the
Speaker 1: worst idea of all time. And that's why so much
Speaker 1: mediocre mill art is out there because people love telling
Speaker 1: women their ideas are bad, but men they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: remixt fucking idiot. Oh well a few other things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention, we see what has become a
Speaker 1: trope of Oh I noticed the cal a woman being
Speaker 1: good at fixing cars as a way to show her
Speaker 1: is that I'm not like the other girls. But in
Speaker 1: this movie, yes, and there are examples of this where
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel tropy or it doesn't feel like it's
Speaker 1: a weird tact on trait to make her feel I'm
Speaker 1: not like one of the other girls. This is an
Speaker 1: example of a movie that does it well. But like
Speaker 1: Tanya walks up to Jeff, he's like fiddling around with
Speaker 1: his truck and she's like, oh, you gotta do this
Speaker 1: thing or blah blah blah, and she like reaches in
Speaker 1: and she also has braces. It's so cute. He's like, okay,
Speaker 1: um yeah, this scene and it's like, you don't know
Speaker 1: what to do. She's just like he's the part where
Speaker 1: and you and you know, like if you didn't know
Speaker 1: he was about to become a historically notorious piece of ship.
Speaker 1: That story beat when the very heavy handed Romeo and
Speaker 1: Juliet begins to play, when he's like so pretty yeah,
Speaker 1: and she's like no, I'm not, you're and you're just
Speaker 1: like kiss and then end of the movie and then
Speaker 1: break up immediately. But that was a nice moment. But yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I totally believe that she was good at fixing cars,
Speaker 1: just based on her background, but the fact that they
Speaker 1: show it, yeah, yeah, because it happens again in a
Speaker 1: in an episode that we've either just done or is
Speaker 1: about to come out as Josie and the Pussycats, where
Speaker 1: it's like that one, Hey, that one doesn't make sense
Speaker 1: in the context of the story. No, not at all,
Speaker 1: Like why but Alan Cumming does give a break the
Speaker 1: fourth wall glanced at the camera at one point in
Speaker 1: the movie, and I can't a wait to record that episode.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna explad like and it's to a meat low song.
Speaker 1: It's like that was designed with me in mind. I
Speaker 1: can't even believe anyway, okay, I'm shifting like I'm getting okay,
Speaker 1: But but that's going off of the fact that that trope.
Speaker 1: I would agree that trope is present because that was
Speaker 1: intentionally shown. But a wait, this movie, it would have
Speaker 1: been very easy. I wonder if the director of photography
Speaker 1: for this movie was a man or a woman. I
Speaker 1: don't know. This movie is directed and written by a man,
Speaker 1: which I was surprised at two different Yeah, but this movie,
Speaker 1: I mean a movie about figure skaters in general, it
Speaker 1: would have been a very easy choice to sexualize the
Speaker 1: way the movie is shot, and it's not shot that
Speaker 1: way at all. And when you see figure skating scenes,
Speaker 1: you're looking at either Tanya's face to communicate how she's
Speaker 1: feeling about herself, or you're seeing the athletic focus you
Speaker 1: see like the triple actual a million times. So I
Speaker 1: thought that was really al wostly impressive because that's just
Speaker 1: how it should be. But I agree, yeah, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what it should default too. And yet so many
Speaker 1: movies and it's shot in such a way where it's Hey,
Speaker 1: we're shooting this with the male gaze cameras, which has
Speaker 1: magnets that are just on the German right. And and
Speaker 1: the and the way that I mean skaters were sexualized
Speaker 1: in this time would have made it a very easy,
Speaker 1: cheap choice. And they don't make that choice in a
Speaker 1: cinematography by Nicholas know that last name, but I'm gonna
Speaker 1: try Karro Kansas Arts US film Editing by Tatiana Tatiana Regal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she eded large and the real girl I just learned anyways,
Speaker 1: I hope she I I genuinely just based on I
Speaker 1: haven't seen all the Oscar front Runners, but this was
Speaker 1: like the best editing I saw in any It was shot,
Speaker 1: very well, edited, very Yes, it is a terrific movie.
Speaker 1: It is so good. I mean, not as good as
Speaker 1: Paddington too, but I mean I wanted to talk really
Speaker 1: quickly about the role of toxic masculinity in this story
Speaker 1: as it pertains to Jeff. I think we've we've already
Speaker 1: sort of covered that relationship a little bit. We don't
Speaker 1: get to know Jeff very well in this movie, and
Speaker 1: that doesn't bother me, but of the two abusers, we
Speaker 1: know Jeff far less well, but what we know about
Speaker 1: Jeff that when Tanya doesn't behave the way he wants,
Speaker 1: he hits her and he you know, it's a pretty
Speaker 1: cut and dry dynamic, and we see that over and
Speaker 1: over and over. But the moment in the relationship where
Speaker 1: and they both acknowledged this in interviews, and I thought
Speaker 1: the way it was portrayed, like there's that moment where
Speaker 1: they're like after the triple axle, everything changed where to me,
Speaker 1: that indicated a shift in the power dynamic of like
Speaker 1: when Tanya basically was just growing more confident in her
Speaker 1: abilities and ability to succeed, their relationship worsens. And to me,
Speaker 1: I felt like that was a response to a man
Speaker 1: not feeling in control of the relationship any Yeah, feeling
Speaker 1: inadequate or like, oh, this woman is more successful than me,
Speaker 1: she's better than me. And because he doesn't really have
Speaker 1: he doesn't have he's a job, but he doesn't have
Speaker 1: special skills the way that Tanya do is right, And
Speaker 1: so we see examples of like he's very on paper,
Speaker 1: would appear to be supportive in that he is present,
Speaker 1: he's there, but he you see him taking credit a
Speaker 1: lot for stuff, and you see him repeatedly asking to
Speaker 1: be noticed and appreciated for you know, it's not wrong
Speaker 1: to want to be appreciated, but it's absolutely wrong to
Speaker 1: hit your wife. So, you know, I think I think
Speaker 1: that it's it wasn't a brand of toxic masculinity that
Speaker 1: we haven't seen displayed, but I thought it was whatever
Speaker 1: effectively presented, especially for a character we don't know that
Speaker 1: much about in terms of his background. We know that
Speaker 1: he's poor. He says a little bit about himself, but
Speaker 1: that's basically you know, Sean. I think it's a more
Speaker 1: interesting case study here, and I love I want to
Speaker 1: be his best friend. Sean is a different kind. It
Speaker 1: reminds me of that pop culture detective essay about like
Speaker 1: the toxic masculinity of like nerdy guys of how sort
Speaker 1: of for years and movies like Weird Science, where it's
Speaker 1: like the nerds will rise up and fuck every woman where.
Speaker 1: You know, it's presented that narrative of like nerds don't
Speaker 1: get to have sex with girls, and what a massive travesty,
Speaker 1: and they should be allowed to enact. They should allowed
Speaker 1: to be just a shitty women as popular guys. I
Speaker 1: just watched sixteen Candles last night for the first time,
Speaker 1: you won't get But my God, is not the worst
Speaker 1: movie I've ever seen. I think we should do it.
Speaker 1: We should done special because it's despicable. But presenting toxic
Speaker 1: masculinity as a punch line was like another very deliberate
Speaker 1: choice this movie makes that I thought worked really well.
Speaker 1: There were some moments where I was like, he's doing violent,
Speaker 1: terrible stuff, but by and large, I think presenting that
Speaker 1: character as a fucking joke. Who literally, I mean, he's
Speaker 1: he's speaking in like pretty broad strokes of like I
Speaker 1: never do anything wrong, cut to like him doing something wrong.
Speaker 1: That was another great follow that when he's in the
Speaker 1: back of the car, he's like, they'll never break me,
Speaker 1: cut to a montage of him just bragging about Nancy
Speaker 1: care Think, yeah, that was me and my crew, and
Speaker 1: it's like and also he lies like five dys like
Speaker 1: I got page sixty dollars, Like did it were you
Speaker 1: talking about? It? Was just like it was, Oh God.
Speaker 1: I mean I think that that the way that character
Speaker 1: is presented was really interesting choice that maybe won't work
Speaker 1: for everyone, but I thought it was a way that
Speaker 1: we don't see toxic masculinity displayed a lot that can
Speaker 1: be effective. True, Yeah, I agree to. Another couple of
Speaker 1: things I wanted to point out about her abusive relationship
Speaker 1: with Jeff is that at one point, you know, she says,
Speaker 1: you know, I thought it was my fault that he
Speaker 1: was hitting me. Then I just thought it was interesting
Speaker 1: just to have it be pointed out, because that's such
Speaker 1: a common thing for abuse victims to feel, because their
Speaker 1: abuser is often also extremely manipulating and makes them feel
Speaker 1: as though it is their fault. And the fact that
Speaker 1: it even gets said I thought was important. Moments like that,
Speaker 1: like this is weird to say about. I wish that
Speaker 1: this movie had come out when I was a teenager
Speaker 1: because there's so much presented here that is presented really
Speaker 1: explicitly and directly, even when they're like painful truths to
Speaker 1: be very direct about. But I'm excited for like young
Speaker 1: girls who are seeing in this movie and and can
Speaker 1: hear these messages stated so clearly, like that's awesome. Another
Speaker 1: good message that I think the movie sends is it
Speaker 1: starts with you see like a tiny, tiny scene of
Speaker 1: her stepbrother, creepy Chris's this guy was living with me
Speaker 1: at the time, and I remember my first date with
Speaker 1: Jeff because I had my my creepy stepbrother arrested that
Speaker 1: day because you see a scene where he comes up
Speaker 1: and gropes her and like fondles her breast, and then
Speaker 1: she blings him down and calls the cops on him
Speaker 1: and like has him basically arrested and kicked out of
Speaker 1: the house. And then there's a number of other times
Speaker 1: in the movie where she calls the cops on Jeff
Speaker 1: and nothing is and has restraining orders violent and against him.
Speaker 1: He often violates them. They even get divorced because they
Speaker 1: get married and then divorced, but she takes them back
Speaker 1: after that. When you shoots her, he shoots her co
Speaker 1: a cop pulls them over, pretending to her bloody face. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then and then while he's kind of talking his
Speaker 1: way out of it in the background with a cop,
Speaker 1: you see another scene where Tany is directly addressing the
Speaker 1: camera seeing like you can talk this way and anything.
Speaker 1: The cop has left me there like it was I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: how women are disserviced when you can't make the argument
Speaker 1: that she didn't try to get out. She did. She did,
Speaker 1: but you know the abuse cycle. It's Yeah, the last
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to talk about was the media aspect
Speaker 1: of it, which feels especially relevant right now. Of a
Speaker 1: lot of the reason this story unfolded the way it
Speaker 1: was was four ratings and four you know, there is
Speaker 1: that side of it, But ultimately it was that people
Speaker 1: just didn't believe Dan yet, Like they did not believe
Speaker 1: what she was saying. I think this movie makes a
Speaker 1: really great point of like her whole life, no one
Speaker 1: believed her, even when she was saying over and over
Speaker 1: like this is the abusive relationship I'm in. This is
Speaker 1: how my class is getting in the way of me
Speaker 1: achieving my goals. Say what Juel about her? She's a
Speaker 1: very direct character for in person, and and she's just
Speaker 1: kind of shoved aside, and reasons are found to dismiss her,
Speaker 1: and sometimes even including like the fact that she's very
Speaker 1: direct is used as a reason to discredit her. It's
Speaker 1: like you're too blunt, like we it's trashy, did not classy, right,
Speaker 1: And the ultimate message being that, like people just didn't
Speaker 1: believe what she was saying. And there was a lot
Speaker 1: of ways that people were biased and prejudiced against her
Speaker 1: that informed that reaction. You know, like there's a lot
Speaker 1: there's certainly a lot of gray area in this story,
Speaker 1: but that she was done a huge disservice by the
Speaker 1: media that ended up robbing her of a career, that
Speaker 1: it seemed like people always wanted to rob her up anyways. Yeah,
Speaker 1: um it just yeah. There's a line that she says
Speaker 1: in the movie. She's talking about Nancy Karrigan, and she says,
Speaker 1: the press wanted Nancy to be the princess and I
Speaker 1: to be the pile of crap to sell papers. So
Speaker 1: basically they had decided even though they came from similar
Speaker 1: economic backgrounds Nancy and Tanya, which is the movie should
Speaker 1: have said, I should have said, but because Nancy was
Speaker 1: maybe not his crass and maybe a little bit more
Speaker 1: refined in her appearance, and the press just held onto
Speaker 1: that and we're like, yeah, Tanya is white trash, forklift
Speaker 1: driving welder lady who was like gross and her competitor.
Speaker 1: Of course they were. Well, the thing is like that sucks,
Speaker 1: is like Nancy was from a similar background, but she
Speaker 1: just she was willing to play ball, as it were,
Speaker 1: by not really saying anything about her background. She was
Speaker 1: very like old interviews with her, they're just you know,
Speaker 1: in the way that you see a lot of teenagers
Speaker 1: who come to prominence and stay there. She's not really
Speaker 1: saying that much. She's saying like she's thanking people. She
Speaker 1: you know, she's not stating her opinions as much as
Speaker 1: Tanya is. And I think that, like there is a
Speaker 1: big element of like people wanting her to apologize for
Speaker 1: something that she she she's an unapologetic person and people
Speaker 1: did not like that, and I it's I mean, we've
Speaker 1: hit on this before, just like an unapologetic man Sky
Speaker 1: is the limit for those types of characters, and a
Speaker 1: lot of biopics that is like the center of it.
Speaker 1: Like he never apologized for doing what he thought was right,
Speaker 1: and that's what we see Tanya doing. And you know,
Speaker 1: you can see the real historical result is that her
Speaker 1: life was ruined because she wasn't willing to play ball
Speaker 1: and was unapologetic about who she was. I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is an appropriate parallel to draw, but remember
Speaker 1: when Mike Tyson bid off someone's ear and everyone's like, oh,
Speaker 1: Mike Tyson, Oh this slap on the wrist. But actually
Speaker 1: you can still be in the public eye and you're like,
Speaker 1: what a silly guy, and did it? And I think
Speaker 1: that ties back to the femininity issue of like the
Speaker 1: sports she was in it, just like she wasn't supposed
Speaker 1: to be tough and that sports she's supposed to be
Speaker 1: traditionally feminine, and there was no wage room. But then
Speaker 1: also just the way that like the press and media
Speaker 1: treated both cases, where like Tanya was to some degree
Speaker 1: involved in violence against Nancy Karragan and Mike Tyson was
Speaker 1: no doubt involved with violence around there's an apanage of
Speaker 1: it by fighting his ear off, but he got some
Speaker 1: ship for a while, I remember. But now, like Mike Tyson,
Speaker 1: you can see him in movies like he's still check out,
Speaker 1: Please God, don't watch the overr but like exactly like huge,
Speaker 1: he's still a person that people. Yeah, and often he's
Speaker 1: the butt of a joke, but the fact that he's
Speaker 1: still But honestly, that was then I ended. I'd argue
Speaker 1: that ultimately that was a boon to his career. Yeah,
Speaker 1: whereas with Tanya it was easier to villainize her because
Speaker 1: of the patriarchy, that little shifty patriarchy. Back again, he
Speaker 1: thought we got it last time, recommended viewing for people
Speaker 1: who enjoyed Itonia first of all, watched the documentary it's
Speaker 1: made by I forget what her name is, but a
Speaker 1: really great documentary. And also I think it is relevant
Speaker 1: that the source material for this movie was curated and
Speaker 1: presented by a female filmmaker, really really, really good. And
Speaker 1: then follow up, I would watch the Netflix documentary about
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, where you'll find a similar story of I mean,
Speaker 1: there's no limit to the stories of women being victimized
Speaker 1: in media. That's why our Shall exists. But in terms
Speaker 1: of like real life stuff, Amanda Knox the I mean
Speaker 1: the story being that she was accused of murder when
Speaker 1: it was clear very early on that she did not
Speaker 1: do it and it was done by someone else who
Speaker 1: admitted to it. But for years it was like did
Speaker 1: she do it? And was pushed by the media. And
Speaker 1: I think that this movie pulls from that a little
Speaker 1: bit because there's that shitty media guy that we see
Speaker 1: in the talking heads over and over who's like he
Speaker 1: and I popped her tires like the that seemed like
Speaker 1: almost directly pulled from There's like this British tabloid journalist
Speaker 1: in the Amanda Knox documentary who couldn't be more thrilled
Speaker 1: with himself for ruining her life and I just want
Speaker 1: to shoot him. But recommended viewing. Hey does this movie
Speaker 1: about the bachtel Pst. I wonder it certainly does. For sure.
Speaker 1: You've got Livona and the coach talking, You've got Tanya
Speaker 1: and the coach talking. You've got Lavanna and Tanya talking
Speaker 1: to each other. You've got we didn't talk about this character,
Speaker 1: but Tanya fires Diane her first coach, and then hire
Speaker 1: someone named Dottie or something. And then when she sucks
Speaker 1: up the ninety two Olympics, Diana ends up coming back
Speaker 1: with that great scene at the diner where Time was like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm just like my mom. I'm a waitress, I'm poor,
Speaker 1: I'm out of shape, and the good news is I
Speaker 1: also am on skilled. It's like that was fun. That
Speaker 1: was fun. But yeah, I mean the movie passes dozens
Speaker 1: of times. It's not even worth counting how many, because
Speaker 1: it knows this movie is from moment when women take
Speaker 1: up the screen for the majority of the movie, and
Speaker 1: again it is worth saying, it's white women again. Tricky,
Speaker 1: it's a biopic. Tricky. We're in Oregon for most of
Speaker 1: the movie, but worth staying. Oregon, which was founded as
Speaker 1: a white supremacy state. If you didn't know, I didn't know. Horrible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even let black people live there until sometime
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties. I want to say, well, that explains,
Speaker 1: and it was like a white state. It was found
Speaker 1: like this is going to be a white haven for
Speaker 1: any white people who want to live here and not
Speaker 1: be around any people. Not know that. That makes sense
Speaker 1: of every place I've ever seen an Oregon well, very white,
Speaker 1: fucked up man. She'll be right the movie. Yes, I'm
Speaker 1: going to give it a five nipple. I think I
Speaker 1: think I am to No, No, I'm gonna give it
Speaker 1: four because and I know it's about Atonia Harding. But
Speaker 1: I do think that Nancy was robbed, was was villainized.
Speaker 1: She was Margo Robbie. I think she was, and I
Speaker 1: understand why this choice was made, but I don't like it.
Speaker 1: She was villainized in this story that she was not.
Speaker 1: She couldn't be less of a villain or even a
Speaker 1: willing participant in I thought that there were several small
Speaker 1: opportunities to flesh her out a little bit, but the
Speaker 1: movie shows no interest in giving Nancy's character any to mention,
Speaker 1: which I that really did bother me. However, every other
Speaker 1: woman we see on screen is flawed, has motivation just
Speaker 1: I don't know, just like a lot of human women
Speaker 1: are shown in this movie and are shown together and
Speaker 1: are shown in conflict, are shown not in conflict. There's
Speaker 1: actually kind of everyone in this movie is in conflict
Speaker 1: at all times, regardless of gender, pretty much without exception,
Speaker 1: down to the fucking we didn't talk about this where
Speaker 1: we think we're getting a reconciliation scene with Tanya and
Speaker 1: her mom and they're like, nope, she's being paid by
Speaker 1: someone to get to admit she did something that she
Speaker 1: may not have actually done. Amazing, but yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that this movie is terrific. I just wish
Speaker 1: justice for Nancy. Baby. Nancy, to her credit slash to
Speaker 1: my low key fury, still to this day, has no
Speaker 1: interest in talking about it. They're like, have you seen Titania.
Speaker 1: She's like, nope, she will not talk about it. She
Speaker 1: has no interest. I mean, is weird because Nancy Kerrigan
Speaker 1: ended up kind of making a killing off of this incident,
Speaker 1: although obviously she was not. Again, she's not a willing
Speaker 1: participant in this, but she did make that amazing comeback
Speaker 1: and then off of that amazing comeback, she one second
Speaker 1: place made a face, which I'm just like, that's the
Speaker 1: only time we've seen Nancy Kerrigan behave human is that
Speaker 1: because she was so like conscious and perfect and then
Speaker 1: when she was just like kind of There is like
Speaker 1: a great clip when Nancy Kergan gets the silver medal
Speaker 1: in the Olympics where the girl who wins it was
Speaker 1: like a Russian girl is like taking a while to
Speaker 1: get off the ice because she's crying so much, and
Speaker 1: Nancy is just like, there's like a clip of Nancy
Speaker 1: kirk and be like, why are we gonna just We're
Speaker 1: just gonna keep filming her crying. I was like, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: she's a person, you know. In fact, I like that.
Speaker 1: First of all, I make faces all the time. I
Speaker 1: always have a scowl on my face. So and also
Speaker 1: that's basically telling telling a woman to smile smiling when
Speaker 1: he smiled. She lost, after all, she there like she frowned.
Speaker 1: But but the movie cast her as in I mean,
Speaker 1: Tanya cast her is in the wrong for doing that,
Speaker 1: and the movie makes no commentary. And the fact that
Speaker 1: that is probably a little petty of her, because you know,
Speaker 1: Nancy Anyways, clearly I'm a Nancy stand I love her,
Speaker 1: I love Tanya too, I love this movie. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna stick with my five just because I
Speaker 1: don't have the same emotional attachment to Nancy Carrigan as
Speaker 1: you do. So I just thought it was great that
Speaker 1: we what feels like because they actually are real people depicted,
Speaker 1: because other biopics will be about a historical figure and
Speaker 1: totally glass over them and make them not that Tom
Speaker 1: Hanks movie about Walt Disney. Also that Tom Hanks biopics
Speaker 1: are fucking problematic. Charlie Wilson's War is an atrocity to nature.
Speaker 1: Charlie Wilson was like a senator I'm pretty sure who.
Speaker 1: Literally the whole movie is like he's a using women
Speaker 1: and it's sucking cool. Tom Hanks. Some biopics no more
Speaker 1: the post funk off. Well. An example I saw recently
Speaker 1: was the Greatest Showman, which is the worst movie I've
Speaker 1: ever seen. I did go to see it because zac
Speaker 1: Efron is in it, and that's my cross to bear,
Speaker 1: but that movie totally glossed over all the horrible ship P. T.
Speaker 1: Barnum did in his life and does not depict him
Speaker 1: as an interesting or compelling or multidimensional character the way
Speaker 1: that Ionia does. So, I Tany was very responsible in
Speaker 1: presenting these characters, flawed as they may be, as dynamic,
Speaker 1: multidimensional characters and people, and exploring things that movies don't
Speaker 1: often if they do explore, they don't go into enough
Speaker 1: depth about or make any real statement about, which is
Speaker 1: you know, class struggles and abuse and the media's portrayal
Speaker 1: of women and things like that. So it tackles a lot.
Speaker 1: It tackles a lot, and I think it does it
Speaker 1: all for the most part, pretty responsibly. And on top
Speaker 1: of that, it's just, you know, a woman's story. It's
Speaker 1: a woman driving this story. It's a fun movie. It's
Speaker 1: good because there is kind of like sometimes a tendency
Speaker 1: of even in movies that farewell with the Beachtel tests,
Speaker 1: in portrayal of women of like, yeah, we're seeing strong
Speaker 1: female characters, but we're not seeing a strong, flawed female characters,
Speaker 1: and that's something this movie does very well. Yes indeed,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I give it a five nipple and my
Speaker 1: nipples go to I think that Sean Eckart has eight nipples.
Speaker 1: You think it's a cat he's a cat. How great
Speaker 1: would it have been if Alfred Willina was in this movie?
Speaker 1: I gonna say there's not really any older male parts
Speaker 1: in this movie though, so it might have been impossible.
Speaker 1: And also how amazing is it that there's no older
Speaker 1: male parts in this movie? Um? So ali from Willina? Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I think, I mean he's a feminist icon. He posted
Speaker 1: a first trap along with a caption that's like donate
Speaker 1: to Times up and it's like, um, what bitch, But
Speaker 1: like I love it, You're get So you're giving Sean
Speaker 1: Akhart five nipples? Nipples, I'll give him two of mine,
Speaker 1: which brings up his count to seven. So maybe he's
Speaker 1: just like he's got like a spare time. Because I
Speaker 1: love I can't wait to see Paul Walter Hauser in
Speaker 1: every movie that comes up from now on. I literally
Speaker 1: can't wait to be tired of him. Um, and am
Speaker 1: giving my other two nipples to Nancy? Sorry? Yeah, that's great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I also think that I look more like Nancy
Speaker 1: Kerrigan than the girl who played her in the movie.
Speaker 1: I'm just throwing it out. So like all the casting
Speaker 1: agents were patrons on are you can't wait to play Nancy? Karrigan. Well,
Speaker 1: that was the episode, folks, thanks for listening. I had
Speaker 1: given the I didn't remember this, but I had given
Speaker 1: the movie five nipples, um and and Jamie you had
Speaker 1: given it four. I think I wouldn't necessarily give it
Speaker 1: five if we like to backpedaling on her nipple writing again,
Speaker 1: Caitlin backpedal, Durante strikes again. I don't know. Maybe I
Speaker 1: would still give it. I might. I might even scored
Speaker 1: a little lower. I don't know, maybe it would still
Speaker 1: be around of four for me. I think I think
Speaker 1: I would drop it down to like a four point five.
Speaker 1: For the reasons that you cited in the episode. I
Speaker 1: was just too I was too gung ho about it.
Speaker 1: I guess I was just like Ed had just come
Speaker 1: out and we were all excited. We were like Alice
Speaker 1: and Janny's gonna win that Oscar and then she did.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I feel like, oh, and I was a
Speaker 1: final note that I think in the two and a
Speaker 1: half years since, this movie has kind of slipped out
Speaker 1: of the zeitgeist in a way. I do not like.
Speaker 1: I feel like people don't talk about Titania really at all,
Speaker 1: and I feel like it's it's you and dummy A
Speaker 1: did Jewey bay or the only people talking about Titania
Speaker 1: and we need to fix that. Me and Demi's thread
Speaker 1: is pretty much all about Itoni, like it's just like
Speaker 1: watching it again, Like it's just we're both watching it
Speaker 1: a lot. He and I have a similar text thread
Speaker 1: about Paddington's, so that makes sense. Demi is that friend
Speaker 1: because he's a man of passion. Um. But I would
Speaker 1: encourage you if you like Titania, tell someone who hasn't.
Speaker 1: It's on Hulu. For crying out loud, It's not hard
Speaker 1: to watch Titania. It's so accessible. Just bring it to
Speaker 1: your friends, bring it to your loved ones. They deserve it. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's I'm getting off my subbox. Also, Jamie, I can't
Speaker 1: believe we went through that entire episode and you never
Speaker 1: mentioned anything about Zamboni's which is I mean, that is
Speaker 1: for a reason one of my one of my only notes,
Speaker 1: not a Zamboni in the whole movie, not a damn Zamboni,
Speaker 1: which is first of all, erasure, Bodi Erasure, there's for sure.
Speaker 1: And like Tanya heart thing is like she's like a
Speaker 1: working class hero. She would be talking to the Zamboni
Speaker 1: drivers she would be forging lifelong friendships to the zamboni drivers.
Speaker 1: I bet she knows how to drive a zamboni and
Speaker 1: like everything. Now I want to just quote the whole
Speaker 1: movie again. She does chop on every day, she does
Speaker 1: drive the zamboni every day. Yeah, that would be. I mean,
Speaker 1: that would just be if this were a fictional story.
Speaker 1: They're like, well, yeah, Tanya pays for her lessons by
Speaker 1: driving the zamboni, which is something that I would do
Speaker 1: for anything for free. Oh sure. Like to refer to
Speaker 1: a recent episode on The Cheetah Girls when the one
Speaker 1: character works at the community center to pay for her
Speaker 1: for her dance lessons, it could be just like that.
Speaker 1: That's a very common way to get children to do
Speaker 1: labor they shouldn't necessarily be doing. Um was my I
Speaker 1: did the same thing for dance classes in in uh
Speaker 1: in high school. They're like, oh, to help teach the
Speaker 1: little kids. And then we'll look the other way, and
Speaker 1: you're like, look the other way, I'm doing a job. Anyways,
Speaker 1: Titon your rocks. She should have been on a zamboni. Also,
Speaker 1: I've written a zamboni and we seen. Um. Well, thanks
Speaker 1: for listening everyone, Um you can follow us on social
Speaker 1: media at Specto Cast on Twitter and Instagram. Really be
Speaker 1: sure to follow those accounts because that's where we post,
Speaker 1: you know, certain events that we have. Maybe you were
Speaker 1: maybe you were hanging out on our Titanic live stream
Speaker 1: last week. We're hoping to do more of those. So
Speaker 1: just stay in touch, don't be a stranger. You can
Speaker 1: join our the The episode you heard unlocked today was
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Speaker 1: dollars a month you can get to bonus episodes a month,
Speaker 1: as well as access to our back catalog, which is
Speaker 1: over seventy episodes I think at this point. Um, so
Speaker 1: there's just if you're running low on main feet, it's
Speaker 1: a great place to go. And it's also a great
Speaker 1: commune any You can get our march at t public
Speaker 1: dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast. There's just options upon
Speaker 1: options upon options of ways for you to form paras
Speaker 1: social relationships with us. You should, um make an Itonia
Speaker 1: design for okay, don't tend to be Also, I wanted
Speaker 1: to pitch this go for it a crossover of Ionia
Speaker 1: and I Frankenstein. What if they exist in the same universe.
Speaker 1: We should honestly, I now I'm like, should I change
Speaker 1: my other birthday? Patreon episode two I Frankenstein? Honestly, something
Speaker 1: good thin I fregate side is there was two perfect
Speaker 1: movies combined. It couldn't be done. Oh god, I love
Speaker 1: I freak it said so much like the scene where
Speaker 1: he's on top of the mountain and he's just swinging
Speaker 1: around nun chucks, but there's no when there. I love it.
Speaker 1: I simply don't remember. I think I've seen it, but
Speaker 1: I don't remember anything about it. Aaron Eckhart really wishes
Speaker 1: that you didn't remember anything about it. I would I
Speaker 1: would gladly record a bonus episode on it, though, if
Speaker 1: that was your birthday wish. Maybe that's the move about
Speaker 1: to make my wishes come true. All right, Well, thanks
Speaker 1: again everyone, and we'll see you next week. Bye.