1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshadarati. This week, can warfare 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: go green? It's been a tense few months. Just a 3 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, it felt like the world was 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: on the brink of another world war when the US 5 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: bombed Iranian nuclear sites. And while World War three may 6 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: have been averted for now, there are more than one 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: hundred armed conflicts still going These wars don't just kill people, 8 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: but they are also responsible for a huge amount of 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: carbon emissions. By some estimates, the US military is the 10 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: world's largest consumer of oil. As one US general said 11 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: in twenty eleven, energy is the lifeblood of our war 12 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: fighting capabilities. Western economies are now gearing up for a 13 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: big expansion of military spending. The thirty two member countries 14 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: that form NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty organization, have agreed 15 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: to increase defense spending to a staggering five percent of 16 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: their GDP by twenty thirty five. That will be trillions 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: of dollars more going to an enormously carbon intensive industry. 18 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: But few people want to talk about carbon emissions and wars. 19 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: It's one reason why defense departments have escaped the scrutiny 20 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: faced by businesses or even other parts of government. If 21 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: all that money goes to buying casoline hungary equipment that 22 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: keeps militaries around the world hooked to fossil fuels, it 23 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: will make fighting climate change even harder. And the trouble 24 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: is climate change is a threat multiplier. The hotter the planet, 25 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: the higher the risks of conflicts, and the deadlier those wars. 26 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: Somehow this circle needs to be squared. While countries feel 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: they must spend more on militaries, doing so in a 28 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: way that will increase emissions is also not in the 29 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: interest of national security. 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: You know, I always get criticized by people who call 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: we woke for thinking climate and military that I'm thinking 32 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: about electric tanks. I'm not, but there is an absolute 33 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: truth in the view that electric drives on a vehicle 34 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: makes that vehicle better. 35 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: My guest today is Richard Nuji, who was left and 36 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: in General in the British Army equan into a three 37 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: star general. He served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and in 38 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, before he retired from the military, he 39 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: published a report on what the UK's military must do 40 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: in the face of climate change. The report considered both 41 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: how the British military is affected by climate change and 42 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: what it must do to cut its emissions. I wanted 43 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: to find out from Richard whether militaries are taking the 44 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: risks of climate change seriously, can warfare go green? And 45 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: does the increase in native spending come at the expense 46 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: of global climate goals. Welcome to the show, Richard. 47 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: Thank you. 48 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: So when you were on tour in Afghanistan or in Iraq, 49 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: did you ever think about how climate impacts might affect 50 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: the work you were doing on the ground. 51 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: So I suppose the really interesting moment for me was 52 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: in Iraq in two thousand and three. I sort of commanded, 53 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: loose word everything south of Basra, but at the size 54 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: of whales, with one thousand soldiers in my battle group. 55 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: And we were there therefore in the summer of two 56 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: thousand and three, after the war had finished, and it 57 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: got up to about fifty degrees and what was very evident, 58 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: and most of the time the heat was very very 59 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: dry heat. So the wind came from the north and 60 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: so down through the desert, and so it was dried 61 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: out by the time it got to us in the 62 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: scith of Iraq. But for two weeks of the year 63 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: there was a thing which the Iraqis and I can't 64 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: remember the word in their language, but it translated as 65 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: the cooker where the wind backed and came up the gulf, 66 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: and there you therefore had one hundred percent of humidity 67 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: and fifty degrees a heat that's actually physically impossible for 68 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: humans to live in. And so we were really really 69 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: struggling to be able to operate in an environment where 70 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: it was so hot that you took a shower, you 71 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: dried off, you were immediately soaked again. You woke up soaked, 72 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: You moved two meters, you were soaked because you were 73 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: sweating so much. I had one soldier who drank sixteen 74 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: liters of water and was still dehydrated. We had, out 75 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 2: of the thousand odd soldiers over time, we used two 76 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty about drips to keep people with enough 77 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: moisture in their bodies, and we had to send five 78 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: people home for heat stroke. Now, wars in the Middle 79 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: Ages always the biggest killer was not the war itself, 80 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: but was disease, and was dysentery and things like that. 81 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: I lost no soldiers on that tour, very sadly. One 82 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: died from a heart attack, but I lost no soldiers 83 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: through enemy action. But I lost five back to the 84 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: UK because of heat, and I put in hospitals, if 85 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: so to speak, for a short time two hundred and fifty. 86 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: So the heat had a very There was no wh conditioning. 87 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: We were living in what was their buildings. We got tents, 88 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: but they weren't air conditioned. That all came much later 89 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 2: for the troops, much later. So there's a piece there 90 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: about soldiers always find it difficult to operate in intense heat. 91 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: That is really intense heat, And so that came to 92 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 2: me that actually, as the world is getting warmer, and 93 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: I don't think anybody can deny the world's getting warmer, 94 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: it is going to make it more difficult for soldiers 95 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: to operate. And then there's all sorts of equipment issues 96 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 2: as well. 97 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: We should come to talking about, now, how does national security, defense, 98 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: the military think about climate change in both operating conditions 99 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: and in trying to tackle the problem, because the military 100 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: does contribute to the problem in big ways. But before 101 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: we go there, the report that you ended up writing 102 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, as a result of starting to 103 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: think about climate change and the impact on military and 104 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: what it could do, you had in your introduction, these 105 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: words and to read them because they're in a way prophetic, 106 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: and we are living through it now. You said, the 107 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: threats of our modern world, made worse by rising seas, 108 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: extreme weather, and creeping desertification, will almost certainly lead to 109 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: more conflict, and more conflict in itself will damage the planet. 110 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: Those in conflict will not be able to focus on 111 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: the climate, and instead we'll be creating more emissions whilst 112 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: in conflict. We are seeing many more conflicts now relative 113 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: to twenty twenty one when he wrote the report the 114 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: war between Russia and Ukraine. What's happening in Gaza, America's 115 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: attack on Iran. We can't say climate change caused them. 116 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: A lot of the conflicts that have happened around the 117 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: world may have climate as a contributing factor in some places. 118 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: Syria is probably the best studied, but it is true 119 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: right now, with all that's happening, the military's focus is 120 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: very much on fighting and not on climate. So at 121 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: such a time, given the work you've done, how do 122 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: you get the leadership to think about climate change at all. 123 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: It's a very good question, because it is that perennial 124 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: question of the urgent over the important and the urgent, 125 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: as we used to say in the military, the crocodile 126 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: closest to the canoe is going to be the threat 127 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: of war in Europe, the threat of war with Russia. 128 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: You know, Europe's part of ETO. But you've also got 129 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 2: wars around you know, you've got more wars around the world, 130 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: and that for a military person, you have to focus 131 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: on the enemy in front of you. And the enemy 132 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 2: in front of you is a physical presence if you like, 133 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: it's a Russian army or Russian Air Force or Russian 134 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: navy or whatever. So how do you say, well, hang 135 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: on a minute, there's something which is contributing to might 136 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 2: be causing those wars in the first place. And the 137 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: answer comes from I think two things. One is for 138 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: militaries as much as for politicians, understanding the causes of 139 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: war is an important step to understanding how to create 140 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: a lasting piece. No war ends, or very very few 141 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: wars end without some sort of political settlement. So understanding 142 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: the causes of those wars is really really important. And 143 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 2: if climate change is part of that, then you need 144 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: to understand that. As a soldier, you need to understand 145 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: those causes. It won't answer the question immediately in front 146 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: of you, but you do begin to understand the causes. 147 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: That's the first piece, and the second piece is about 148 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: how can militaries bluntly take advantage of the technologies that 149 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: are trying to solve the climate change issues to make 150 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: themselves a better, more effective military. So there's a win 151 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: win here. One is understanding the causes of war and 152 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: the other is embracing the technologies to try and make 153 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: your prosecution of that war more effective by looking at 154 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 2: some of the new technologies that are coming onside. 155 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:57,239 Speaker 1: And it's also true that given the importance of national security, 156 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: defense departments around the world tend to be the better funded. 157 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: Departments tend to be the places where governments have slightly 158 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: loser purses because it is seen as a threat that 159 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: needs to be managed and it is seen as an 160 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: urgent threat. So for a long time there has been 161 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: discussion that because the defense departments have more money, and 162 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: they are also places where frontier technologies have tended to 163 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: be used or deployed or developed as a result, that 164 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: those would be the places where we could be pioneering 165 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: a lot of green technologies because they could be good 166 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: for the military and they will have civilian users. Do 167 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: what are success stories that you think exist today in 168 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: that basket and how could we build more of them? 169 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: So I'll I'll give one example, and how much of 170 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: a success story is it that you could debate? But 171 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: sustainable aviation fuel. If you look at when I write 172 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: the report in twenty twenty one, seventy some percent of 173 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 2: the Row Air Forces emissions were from fuel. And that's 174 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,599 Speaker 2: fairly logical. Fast jets use an awful lot of fuel. Interestingly, 175 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: fifty five percent of the Navy's emissions were fueled. For 176 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: the Army, it's it's down below ten percent. Is their equipment. 177 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 2: Actually most of it is on their land mass. So 178 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: if you're trying to tackle the problem of fuel and emissions, 179 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: then you need to find an alternative. And the alternative 180 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: does exist. It's called sustainable aviation fuel. There's lots of 181 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 2: different types of sustainable aviation fuel there, but there's an 182 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: absolute key, if you like, requirement of the Air Force 183 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 2: if they're going to get their emissions down to go 184 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 2: down that route. So what did the Air Force do? 185 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: And of course they're not unique in this, but what 186 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: they did is they first of all got the whole 187 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 2: of NATO. The Royal Air Force got the whole of 188 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 2: NATO to agree a protocol which said that all equipments 189 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 2: NATO equipments should be capable of taking fifty percent sustainable 190 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: aviation fuel. So it's now expanded beyond just a single 191 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 2: military the Royal Air Force in our case, to militaries 192 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 2: across NATO should have the capable ability. It doesn't mean 193 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: to say they have to use it, but they should 194 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: have the capability to do so. Because there are different 195 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: protocols of different fuels with the intent and I don't 196 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 2: know whether that intent will be met or not because 197 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: it's in the future. The intent of being able to 198 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: ap protocol to say you'd be able to take one 199 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: hundred percent sustainable aviation fuel by about twenty forty. That 200 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 2: sends a message to the market. That's the first thing, 201 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: which is quite important. It's the message to the market. 202 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 2: The second thing is that the role LEVELCE has been 203 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 2: experimenting with sustained aviation fuel. So we have flown our 204 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: first fast jet with saf we've flown our first passenger aircraft, 205 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: but they called voyagers, which are also refueling tankers which 206 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 2: are also used for cargo. Using SAF one hundred percent SAF. 207 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 2: So that shows that not only is their intent theoretical intent, 208 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 2: there's practical application and we have shown that we can 209 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 2: do it. Then you look at why would anybody pay 210 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 2: attention to us, And there's two very very good reasons. 211 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: One is, if the Air Force, so the Ministry of 212 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: Defense says it wants to buy some, you can guarantee 213 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 2: as much as anything can be guaranteed that they will 214 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: pay once they've got the fuel. They're not going to 215 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: go bust. So there's a guarantee of income for somebody 216 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 2: creating SAF. The second piece is it shows that there 217 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 2: is a government backing to sustainable aviation fuel. So all 218 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:28,599 Speaker 2: those tiny companies that are creating SAF, that are speculating 219 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: whether the civil aviation industry or not, will buy it. 220 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: As it is more expensive at the moment. In due 221 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 2: course it'll be as cheap, I believe, but that will 222 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 2: take time and it'll take certain circumstances. But the fact 223 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: that the government is prepared to invest and say yes, 224 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 2: we want it is something that sends a very significant 225 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 2: message to the market, but more importantly sends a message 226 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: to those producers who are relatively small. They're all startups, 227 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: so to speak, they might have scaled to a certain extent. 228 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 2: It gives them confidence to go with it. 229 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: It's also happening in the US where the Defense Department 230 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: is putting out requests for more advanced battery technologies because 231 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: those technologies are being used in warfare today. We've seen 232 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: how Ukraine was able to use drones to be able 233 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: to destroy a lot of very key and very expensive 234 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: infrastructure in Russia. And so people who I've talked to 235 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: who've worked in climate tech, who do battery research are 236 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: finding Defense Department procurement requests coming in or development requests 237 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: coming in for advanced batteries. You do get these impacts 238 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: and also places where maybe climate is not the focus, 239 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: but the technology itself might be developed and have climate users. 240 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think there's a really important piece here 241 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 2: about Julius technology, and it's something that I would say 242 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 2: again and again again because people didn't understand it. Most 243 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 2: people when they think defense, they think weapons, and they 244 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 2: will say that my technology for green transitional green technology 245 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: has no purpose in weapons, and they're right, but it 246 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: completely misunderstands how ministries of defense work. And in the army, 247 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: as an example, thirty percent of the actual army. Of 248 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: the British Army, thirty percent is at the tip of 249 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: the spear. The other seventy percent is the shaft of 250 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 2: the spear supporting that tip, and of course the shaft 251 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: of the spear, if I can use that analogy, is 252 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: far more than weapons. In fact, it's not weapons, it's 253 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: it's everything else. It's medical, there's logistics, there's batteries, there's vehicles, 254 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: there's maintenance, there's so much else, and all of that 255 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 2: can translate relatively simply into the civilian market. And so 256 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: this duel use technology which which many people don't see 257 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: the value of my technology. It's a green technology. Why 258 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: would the Ministry of Defense be interested? The answer is 259 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: they're thinking too narrowly about what defense is about. Give 260 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 2: you just one example, very simple example, which is we 261 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: traditionally have had diesel driven vehicles in the army andre tanks. Now, 262 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: I'm absolutely not suggesting, and you know, I always get 263 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: criticized by people who call me woke for thinking climate 264 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: and military that I'm thinking about electric tanks. I'm not, 265 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: but there is an absolute truth in the view that 266 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: electric drives on a vehicle makes that vehicle better. It's 267 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 2: better for all sorts of reasons. It's better for the 268 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: obvious reasons that you're silent. You don't have the same 269 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 2: transmission in terms of heat or in terms of exhausts. 270 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: None of that can be seen by the enemy because 271 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: you're silent and your stable in terms of heat. But 272 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: it's also easier to drive. They're better vehicles because the 273 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: battery weight is all at the lowest level of the vehicle, 274 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: and therefore you've got a much better weight distribution on 275 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: the vehicle, which makes them better off road. And on 276 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: top of that, you don't have for the soldiers in 277 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: that vehicle the vibration and the noise which actually dulls 278 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: their senses over time. So it's a much much better vehicle. 279 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 2: Now I'm not advocating one hundred percent electric because that 280 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: becomes too susceptible to too many areas of range anxiety 281 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: is how civilians call it. But there's all sorts of 282 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: things on the battlefield. WI woull make that difficult. But 283 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: hybrid vehicles, which are basically electric vehicles with a little 284 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: diesel engine to recharge the battery, that is a really 285 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 2: successful opportunity for people in the military to use. Julius 286 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: technology coming out of the ev world to come into 287 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: the military, and then on top of that, you can 288 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: use the batteries for recharging your radios, recharging all those 289 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: electronic devices of which each individual soldier has. There is 290 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: masses of opportunity for technology that doesn't seem to have 291 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: a value in the military actually being presented to the 292 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: military and saying, look, we can do this, can you 293 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 2: find a use for it in the military, And nine 294 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 2: times out of ten will say, actually, do you know 295 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 2: what we can find a use for that. 296 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: In a way, it's nice that people don't think about 297 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: their technologies having weapons use, because most of the time 298 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: we are living in peaceful times and we don't have 299 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: to think about weapons. But it is worth remembering that 300 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: in the past it is militaries that have decided the 301 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: kind of technology that the world runs on. The famous 302 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: example of Churchill deciding to move the Navy from burning 303 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: coal to burning oil is what ushered in the era 304 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: of oil in the twentieth century. Now you're talking about 305 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: electrification and about the use of hybrids, there are limits, 306 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: especially if we talk about military uses, on how much 307 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: electrification could do. So a fast jet is not going 308 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: to be running on batteries. Neither is a tank. But 309 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: how much further can electrification go into the military space 310 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: and where are those opportunities today? 311 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: You're right, and as I say, I'm not arguing for 312 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: one hundred cent electric tank, but there's a number of 313 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 2: other areas where it can be used. If we have 314 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: have overseas bases, whether they're temporary bases, well let's go 315 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: for temporary bases operational bases. One of the issues in 316 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: Iraq and Afghanistan was the delivery of oil to patrol 317 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: bases and forward bases so that we could run our 318 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: vehicles out of them. Whether it was helicopters that were 319 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: landing and had to be refueled, and that didn't happen 320 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: often at the forward bases, but whether it was the 321 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: vehicles that the soldiers used. In order to be able 322 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: to patrol, you need fuel to get there. The American 323 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: Army Armed Forces lost somewhere between two and three thousand 324 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: soldiers killed just getting fuel through. The British lost their 325 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: most senior officer killed in Afghanistan getting the fuel through. 326 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: So if you can design a power supply that doesn't 327 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: rely on diesel in these operational bases so much you 328 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 2: don't need to get so much fuel through and therefore 329 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 2: you're going to lose fewer lives, it's going to cost less. 330 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: And also you can use the equipment that is protecting 331 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: those fuel convoys out somewhere else. A very good argument 332 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: and Rolls Royce and it's supported by the government. Rolls 333 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: Royce is looking at micronuclear where you can put on 334 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: nuclear power station effectively, and a forty foot container. If 335 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 2: you put that forty foot container into one of our 336 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 2: operational bases, you can bury it, you can make sure 337 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 2: it's secure. Then actually you have almost unlimited fuel and 338 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 2: therefore you do not need diesel to go down the 339 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: road to be able to charge your generators or to 340 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 2: charge your vehicles. So that's one side of it. The 341 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: other side of it is our permanent bases. You can 342 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 2: look at building resilience through having solar panels, we're looking 343 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 2: at hydro, We're looking at wind on our bases. We 344 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 2: have a lot of bases around the world, permanent bases, 345 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 2: either abroad or in this country in the UK, where 346 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 2: actually we need to produce two things. One we need 347 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,479 Speaker 2: to produce electricity for the base, and if you can 348 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 2: do that cheaper through green energy, then why wouldn't you. 349 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 2: But more importantly, it provides that resilience. I would imagine 350 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 2: the Spanish and Portuguese armed forces would be a little 351 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: bit embarrassed that they might not have been able to 352 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 2: get out of their camp in that blackout. And yet 353 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 2: the one time you need the armed forces is when 354 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: you have something like a blackout or where you have 355 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: some sort of trauma that is causing a problem to 356 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 2: the country. If you have your own electricity supply, because 357 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: you've gone down the green energy route and the green 358 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 2: transition route, you have the ability to get out of 359 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: the barracks and you have the ability to be able 360 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 2: to operate even in the environment where there is a 361 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: blackout on the national grid. That's really important. If we're genuinely, 362 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: if the military are genuinely the force of last resort, 363 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 2: then they need to be able to operate under any conditions. 364 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: And therefore, if you create your own electricity, then you 365 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 2: are more secure and you're more resilient. 366 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of my conversation with Richard 367 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: Nuji after this break, and Hey, if you're finding this 368 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: episode insightful, please take a moment to rate and review 369 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your feedback really 370 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: matters and helps new listeners discover the show. Thank you. 371 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: With all these conflicts, defense departments are increasing spending, especially 372 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: in NATO, which just recently met and the members agreed 373 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: except Spain, to increase their spending to five percent of 374 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: the country's gross domestic product by twenty thirty five. Now, 375 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: not all of that needs to go into weapons, but 376 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: a lot of it will go into weapons. Is there 377 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: a risk that a lot of the green spending which 378 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: these same governments whose budgets are tight, who do not 379 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: have the capacity to borrow too much, are going to 380 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: redirect that green spending into defense instead. 381 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 2: So, first of all, I would say that the straight 382 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 2: and a half per cent is getting to defense as 383 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,479 Speaker 2: a whole rather than just two weapons. And one of 384 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 2: the interesting angles that the Defense Review took published last 385 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: month was to absolutely not say what size the armed 386 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,239 Speaker 2: forces should be, because what it said is just we 387 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: need to grow the armed forces. So it's not just weapons, 388 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 2: it's it's people, it's it's all the support that I 389 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 2: was talking about earlier. So, first of all, three and 390 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 2: a half per cent is not just weapons, and the 391 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: one and a half per cent can be used for quote, 392 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 2: national security and resilience. So there's huge scope actually for 393 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: national security and resilience to be part of the green 394 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 2: solutions that the country is trying to do as well. 395 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 2: But to the basis of your question is are the 396 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: two incompatible with each other? Is one stealing from the other? 397 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: I think the answer is absolutely not. A more resilient nation, 398 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: a nation that is more self sufficient in energy particularly 399 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: is an advantage to our defense. I'll take a very 400 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 2: very simple historical example, and of course it doesn't translate 401 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 2: immediately and totally, but in the Second World War fuel 402 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 2: oil was really limited because we had to bring all 403 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 2: the oil to this country through the Atlantic where things 404 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: were being sunk by submarines, U boats and through other vehicles. 405 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 2: You know, everything had to come by sea. So what 406 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 2: did the country do It limited rationed fuel for the 407 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 2: average citizen so that the vast majority of the fuel 408 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 2: could go to the military. And in fact, the only 409 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: people really who who were given a ration were transport 410 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: companies so that people could use public transport, and farmers 411 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: because we had to create food. Translate that into the 412 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: twenty first century, our militaries are still using oil whether 413 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: it's diesel or whatever, for the ability to fight. So 414 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: we're still going to need to import huge amounts of 415 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: fuel in much more contested waters in a war where 416 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: somemarines are more effective and it's much more you know, 417 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: it's much more difficult to defend tankers and so on, 418 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: partly because of their size. The country itself cannot rely 419 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: to the same level. We can't ration in the same 420 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: way that we did in the Second World War because 421 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,479 Speaker 2: everything's much more electrified. Act everything's you know, much more 422 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 2: reliant on oil than it used to be, much more reliant. 423 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: So what is the alternative? The alternative and interesting I 424 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 2: was reading an article just this morning. The alternative is 425 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: to use less oil, and that's not necessarily for a 426 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 2: green reason, but that of course is an advantage to 427 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 2: the whole climate issue. But it's so that if oil 428 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: is restricted in more you have already built the alternatives. 429 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 2: To my mind, it is entirely logical to say that 430 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: the defense and the war effort, if you had to 431 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: go down that route, is reinforced by having green energy 432 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 2: and going further with the green energy transition, because actually 433 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 2: what you're doing is providing resilience to a country that 434 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: becomes less dependent on oil and more dependent on self 435 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 2: create energy, which means that the limited oil that might 436 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: come across the seas to US can be used for 437 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 2: the military. To make sure that you don't limit the military, 438 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: because the military are going to need every drop of 439 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: oil in order to be able to fight effectively, and 440 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 2: that's what you want your militaries to do. So I 441 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 2: see the two as completely compatible and completely in unison, 442 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: and it would be a tragic mistake if, through politics 443 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: and through politicization, the green energy transition was seen at 444 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 2: odds to our security. I would argue exactly the opposite. 445 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: What did you recommend the Defense Department do when it 446 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: thinks about climate change, but as an impact on how 447 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: it's going to have to protect the UK, but also 448 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: as its role in doing some of this green procurement, 449 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: in pushing technologies forward, introducing emissions. Where is the UK now, 450 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: how many of those steps has it followed and what 451 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: more can it do? 452 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 2: I think most people in the climate world who I 453 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: speak to would say nobody is doing anything fast enough, 454 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 2: and they're not doing enough. The Ministry of Defense will 455 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 2: fall into that as well, of course, because you know 456 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 2: they're a they have to be careful that everything they 457 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: do increases our capability rather than reduces it. And you know, 458 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 2: I famously said, you can have the greenest navy, the 459 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: greenest air force, and the greatest army in the world, 460 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 2: but if you come second in a war, you come 461 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: second in a war. And that's not what we're paid 462 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: to do. So we need to be quite careful. And 463 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 2: what did I suggest in the first five years? Take 464 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 2: advantage of the existing technologies, particularly in our bases. You know, 465 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: there's perfectly good solar panels, they're cheap. Why wouldn't we 466 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 2: use those now to create the electricity that we need? 467 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 2: And we spend an enormous amount of money or the 468 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 2: MODS or keep on saying we, but the Ministry of 469 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: Defense spends an enormous amount of money on energy every year. 470 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 2: If they can reduce that by creating their own, then 471 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 2: that surely is a good thing. The second thing I suggested, 472 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 2: and this is so important, the MOD needs to put 473 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 2: the concept of climate change and adapting to climate change 474 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 2: into its processes. And that sounds really dull, but actually, 475 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 2: if you put it into your processes, if you have 476 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 2: sort of what I call no return valves, you have 477 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 2: to jump that fence. You have to ask the question 478 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 2: about the world that we're going to be living in 479 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: in twenty fifty, assuming a two degree or more in 480 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 2: twenty fifty. And interestingly, the Committion Climate Change when I 481 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 2: was talking to them, when I was writing the report, 482 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 2: were asking the Ministry of Defense to look at two 483 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: scenarios at a two degree increase and a four degree increase. 484 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: The idea that we'd stick to one point five was 485 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 2: was already in the Committee of Climate Change at that time. 486 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: They're thinking it was already we'd go beyond that, and 487 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 2: I think they're realistic in that case, looking at how 488 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 2: will our equipments that Broadly speaking, we plan the Ministry 489 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 2: Defense plans on a forty year life cycle. If you 490 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: work on that basis, equipment bought in twenty twenty will 491 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,719 Speaker 2: be still around in twenty sixty. What is the environment 492 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: it's going to be operating under. You have to build 493 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: that into process, because nobody's going to come to a 494 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 2: decision based on a theoretical unless it's in the process. 495 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 2: What has the mod done. They have built that into 496 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 2: the process already, They have built the adaptation of we 497 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: might be looking at fifty to fifty five degrees as 498 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: a norm in various parts of the world, rather than 499 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 2: completely exceptional. They built into the process the idea that 500 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 2: surface sea temperature could be much higher than it is 501 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 2: today and therefore is going to be less effective in 502 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: cooling the engines of our warships. The second thing, or 503 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 2: the third thing is is actually changing the culture, and 504 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 2: I reckon it would take five years to change the culture. 505 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: Has that culture changed? It is changing. It is changing 506 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 2: where people are very aware of what climate change is doing. 507 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 2: What's the sort of sustainability And sustainability is really simple. 508 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 2: If you have fragile supply chains for rare earths because 509 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: they're all processed in China, for example, if you have 510 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 2: fragile supply chains, what do you do well, Actually, you 511 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 2: need to recycle what you've got. The military have been 512 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: exceptionally good at recycling certain things. So the brass cartridge 513 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: cases out of our artillery and out of our infantry 514 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: when we're in training, that all is recycled. We've been 515 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: done that for years and years and years, so this 516 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 2: is nothing new, but actually it's new things that we 517 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: need to think about recycling that would be much better 518 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 2: for the Ministry Defense and would be cheaper. So there's 519 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: various things that the Ministry Defense is already doing and 520 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: is doubling down on. There's various things that they have 521 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: put into process which is beginning to work. But the 522 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 2: next ten years and the fifteen years beyond that, of course, 523 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: was much looser in the strategy and in the strategic thinking, 524 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: because I mean I remember saying to somebody I was 525 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 2: writing this in twenty twenty and saying, you know how 526 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: many of thees we following that were written in nineteen ninety. Well, 527 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: of course the world's changed out of all proportion between 528 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: nineteen nineteen twenty twenty, so it's going to change dramatically. 529 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 2: So you can't prescript. You can't prescribe, much as people 530 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 2: would love us to do, say, but you can't do that, 531 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: So you have to come up with just options and ideas, 532 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: and that's what I did. 533 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: It is interesting to realize how supply chains can be 534 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: such a bottleneck for all sorts of things. I mean 535 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: the fact that the US and China's trade war was 536 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: predicated on being resolved if China provided enough magnets and 537 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: the metals to make those magnets to the US. Tells 538 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: you that even if the amount of those materials is small, 539 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: the value of those materials in commercial terms is small, 540 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: their strategic importance is so much that the two largest 541 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: economies have made peace for now based on access to 542 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: those minerals. But if you were to think now, having 543 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: done this report five years ago, what have you changed 544 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: your mind about? What is it that you recommended that 545 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: you would change or you would go further. 546 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 2: It's always difficult to ask somebody who's written a report 547 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 2: to then say that they would change it. I think 548 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 2: the basic I tried to put it into basic principles 549 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 2: and basic tenets rather than specific detail. I would argue 550 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 2: that actually what I missed was the newer technologist coming 551 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 2: on board. I said, for five years, work with existing technologies. 552 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 2: For the ten years after that, work with technologies, or 553 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 2: at least begin to understand what new technologies are about. 554 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: Those new technologies are coming on stream so fast. But 555 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 2: I think there is a very, very different There is 556 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: war already in Europe, which wasn't there when I wrote 557 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: the report. But I think this point that you make 558 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 2: about supply chains and about China, and I did not 559 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 2: know at the time that eighty percent of lithium. Five 560 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 2: percent of cobalt or or there thereabouts is processed in China. 561 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: It doesn't come from China, but it's all taken to 562 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 2: China to be processed. That provides a bottleneck. I would 563 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 2: argue that no country should rely on one other country 564 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: that does eighty percent of the processing of anything, because 565 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 2: you become completely dependent on that country. The fact that 566 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 2: it's China doesn't help the case, but if it was, 567 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: if it was a friendly country, I would not advise 568 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 2: it either. And so I think understanding those supply chains, 569 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 2: I would put far more emphasis into the recycling and 570 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: the sustainability and trying to find alternatives to those supply 571 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 2: chains than I did in the report, because I think 572 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 2: that we have become a much more polarized world since 573 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 2: I wrote that report, and that means that we're much 574 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 2: more vulnerable to changes in geostrategic politics and the geopolitics 575 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 2: of the power games that are happening between Russia, China, 576 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: and America particularly. We're much more vulnerable to that, and 577 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 2: I think, of course politicians are seeing that now. 578 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: What has changed since you wrote the report is how 579 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: much more extreme weather impacts the world is seeing and 580 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: how many more times, militaries around the world are being 581 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: deployed to try and help countries deal with these impacts. 582 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: What should militaries be thinking about if they are tapped 583 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: into doing this kind of work more and more as 584 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: the planet keeps getting hotter. 585 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: My first point would be I completely agree with you 586 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 2: if you look at what happened in Pakistan in the 587 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 2: huge floods in Pakistan, and they have a very large military, 588 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,239 Speaker 2: but about a third of the military was deployed in 589 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 2: order to try and solve some of the problems of floods. 590 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: The military is very large because they see a huge 591 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 2: threat from India, and therefore you know it is there 592 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: for a purpose which is to defend the country against India. 593 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 2: Now that's a perceived threat. To put a third of 594 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 2: that into dealing with floods is a very significant move 595 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 2: for any country. So absolutely militaries are being used more 596 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 2: and more often. What does that bring. First of all, 597 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 2: there have been calls and there work calls even when 598 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 2: I was writing a report to create an alternative force 599 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: to be able to deal with humanitarian assistance and disaster relief. 600 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 2: And I would argue that in war, if you're at war, yes, 601 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 2: that's probably necessary, but all sorts of things change if 602 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 2: you're actually at war. In peace, it's probably not necessary. 603 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 2: Because it is very good training for the military to 604 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 2: be able to do this, and it is a purpose 605 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 2: for the military's secondary purpose I get, But it's a 606 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: purpose for the military. What should the militaries be doing. 607 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 2: They should be honing their skills far more effectively. They 608 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,919 Speaker 2: should make sure they have the right equipment, far more 609 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: of the right equipment to be able to deal with 610 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: these humanitarian assistants and disasters. And also we should be collaborating. 611 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 2: This is a really good militaries on the whole collaborate 612 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 2: on a even keel. Now when they're at war, of 613 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: course it ain't. But militaries will think alike broadly speaking, 614 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 2: they tend to get on well with each other. Broadly speaking. 615 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: It is the politicians who set them against each other. 616 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 2: I would always argue that, you know, I could walk 617 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 2: into the Australian Ministry of Defense and it would be 618 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 2: more familiar to me when I was serving than walking 619 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 2: into the UK Home Office because our way of thinking 620 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 2: was so similar. All our problems were the same. Militaries 621 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 2: broadly speaking, have the same problems. Of course, the solutions 622 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 2: are very very different. So it is an opportunity for 623 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: militaries to collaborate. Militaries that wouldn't naturally collaborate because they 624 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 2: have nothing, you know, there's name into politics. There could 625 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 2: collaborate and learn and build together a humanitary assistance and 626 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 2: disaster relief concept and equipment and so on as a 627 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 2: way of getting closer together. That by the way, if 628 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 2: militaries are reluctant to fight each other, it causes politicians 629 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 2: to pause. Doesn't cause them to stop, but it causes 630 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 2: them to pause. 631 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: Well, in a world where there's more fractures happening and 632 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: geopolitics is getting more divided, any moment to find places 633 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: to collaborate is a good place to end the conversation. 634 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: Thank you, Richard, Thank you very much, indeed, and thank 635 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: you for listening to zero. Now for the sound of 636 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: the week. That's the sound of a robot doing low 637 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: grade parkore. Militaries around the world are looking to deploy 638 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: these kinds of robots in warfare. You might even have 639 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: spotted robot dogs at the US military parade held just 640 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: a few weeks ago. If you liked this episode, please 641 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: take a moment to rate and review the show on 642 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend 643 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: or with someone in the military. This episode was produced 644 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: by Oscar Boyd and Jessica Beck. Theme music is composed 645 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: by Wonderly Special Thanks to Laura Milan, Samersadi, Moses andam 646 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,479 Speaker 1: and Shawan wagner I am Akshatrati back soon.