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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: A gorgeous mural of the murdered Ukrainian Arena Zarutska goes

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Speaker 2: up in Brooklyn, and for some reason people are angry.

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Speaker 2: You recall when Arena was stabbed dead on a light

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Speaker 2: real bus. She was just sitting there, minding her own business,

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Speaker 2: looking at her phone when the purpse stood up, towering

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Speaker 2: behind her and.

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Speaker 1: Stabbed her dead. And don't worry.

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Speaker 2: Everyone leaped from their seats and began videoing the entire

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Speaker 2: thing on their cell phones. Thanks for helping people, not

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Speaker 2: but how in the world are people angry about a

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Speaker 2: mural depicting this gorgeous victim, beautiful on the inside and

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Speaker 2: the outside. I'm Nancy Grace, this is crimest I want

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Speaker 2: to thank you for being with us. A beautiful new

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Speaker 2: mural of the murdered Ukrainian Arena Zurutska popped up on

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Speaker 2: the side of a Brooklyn building, and for some reason,

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Speaker 2: people are claiming it's part of a right wing plot.

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Speaker 2: Haven't they heard about crime victims' rights. It's a three

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Speaker 2: story painting of Arena. She made national headlines when she

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Speaker 2: was stabbed dead by an ex con on a Charlotte

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Speaker 2: light rail train. The mural was painted on the side

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Speaker 2: of an apartment building in a trendy section of Bushwick

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Speaker 2: just a few weeks ago. The artwork is on the

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Speaker 2: corner of Jefferson Ave and Evergreen and it's part of

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Speaker 2: a campaign launched by a tech ceo, Egan McCabe, to

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Speaker 2: honor the twenty three year old artist with murals depicting her.

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Speaker 2: And they're going to be in several cities advancing victims' rights.

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Speaker 1: Why are people so angry?

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Speaker 2: I don't understand that, because this is what happens on Shirement.

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Speaker 2: Why did Irena have to die stabbed dead on public transportation?

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Speaker 3: You got to mail that was not for no re

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Speaker 3: event at any minute.

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Speaker 1: The community still reeling.

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Speaker 2: Now, what makes this murder different from other murders. I'm

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Speaker 2: about to play you that newly released to audio, and

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Speaker 2: I've got to warn you up front, it's very, very disturbing.

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Speaker 2: Straight out to veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot

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Speaker 2: of high profile clients, Randy Kessler, Emory Law School professor,

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Speaker 2: former chair ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce, Protect Yourself,

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Speaker 2: Your Kids, in Your Future. Kessler, this case is a

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Speaker 2: death penalty case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder,

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Speaker 2: according to the state, occurred on mass transit. In a nutshell, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you're not delivering a speech in the ABA. Why is

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Speaker 2: that an aggravating circumstance, Randy Kessler?

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Speaker 4: That's all they need is so pass the threshold. And

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Speaker 4: in the law they're allowed to ask the death penalty

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Speaker 4: because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor. Nobody

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Speaker 4: wants this guy around. They're going to get a good

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Speaker 4: shot at the death penalty. All they needed was the

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Speaker 4: avenue to get in. They've got it because it's public

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Speaker 4: transportation that authorizes the death penalty.

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Speaker 2: Ass Okay, you do know what you just did right?

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Speaker 2: Put Kessler up. That is not working.

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Speaker 1: I said, why is.

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Speaker 2: It a death penalty because it's on mass transit? And

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Speaker 2: you say, like three times, it's death penalty because it's

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Speaker 2: on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just regurgitated

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Speaker 2: my question.

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Speaker 1: But you did it beautifully, And now I see why

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Speaker 1: you win so many cases and snow appellate court judges.

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Speaker 1: I hope they're not watching right now for your sake.

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Speaker 2: Mass transit killings are dp death penalty because much like

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Speaker 2: a titular murder where a governor or a senator or

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Speaker 2: a president, a judge is killed. It's not just the individual,

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Speaker 2: it's what they represent. That's why that or police officer,

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Speaker 2: that's why those are death penalty cases.

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Speaker 1: This is a am I actually quean a with myself, Castler.

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Speaker 1: This is a death penalty case.

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Speaker 2: Mass transit because it's what it represents, mass transmit government.

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Speaker 1: It's going to get on a bus or a train.

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Speaker 2: If this guy's walking free with a bloody knife, well that's.

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Speaker 4: The reader for the death penalty. You want to find

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Speaker 4: the case is where a death penalty is really going

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Speaker 4: to have a chilling effect. Hopefully it's going to scare

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Speaker 4: other people. But the problem is Nancy, nobody's going to

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Speaker 4: not kill somebody because they might get death instead of

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Speaker 4: life in prison.

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Speaker 5: To me, it should be death penalty because Jerry wants it.

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Speaker 2: Really because I don't want old Sparky, I don't want

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Speaker 2: the needle and now.

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Speaker 1: The firing squad.

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Speaker 2: Well, long story short, that is why this is a

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Speaker 2: death penalty case. Because Arena was murdered on mass transit,

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Speaker 2: which is an arm of the government, and there's a

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Speaker 2: renner right now, and because it creates chaos when citizens

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Speaker 2: are afraid to step on a bus ka Us.

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Speaker 1: That is why this is a death penalty case. But

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Speaker 1: I want to get back.

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Speaker 2: This is something that Kessler lows and hates when a

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Speaker 2: nine to one one audio is played in front of

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Speaker 2: a jury.

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Speaker 1: Why do you hate that so much? Kessler? Because I

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Speaker 1: love it?

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Speaker 4: And they say picture's worth a thousand words and audio

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Speaker 4: is worth ten thousand words. There's no way to unring

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Speaker 4: that bell, period. Jerry hears that that equals conviction.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a listen and see if he's right.

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Speaker 3: Listen, Carl nine one need toe firemedic He said a

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Speaker 3: mail stout was the one for no reason?

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Speaker 1: Did any med.

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Speaker 3: Medican County fire?

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Speaker 5: What is the address for the emergency were? What is this?

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Speaker 6: We'll really want to call? Will stay too?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Kessler, you're right, this man calling nine one one

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Speaker 2: what he observed makes a grown man cry.

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Speaker 1: He's crying, Cassler, how do you think the jury is

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Speaker 1: going to react to that?

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Speaker 5: He is the jury.

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Speaker 4: The jury sees themselves in him. That's the that's the

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Speaker 4: whole point of the audio. You can sympathize, empathize, whatever

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Speaker 4: the word is. You see yourself and you don't ever

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Speaker 4: want to be in his position. You don't ever want

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Speaker 4: to witness that. You don't even want to experience it,

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Speaker 4: and you don't want to love when to experience it,

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Speaker 4: and you feel it, it's emotionally draining, It hits you

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Speaker 4: right here.

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Speaker 5: That's that's a conviction. That audio equals conviction to me, I.

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Speaker 1: Want to hear that one. I'm going to go to

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Speaker 1: the next, the next, nine on one, but I want

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Speaker 1: to hear that one more time. We're hearing a grown

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Speaker 1: man witness breaking down in tears over what just happened

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Speaker 1: to Irina. Listen, Charlan.

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Speaker 3: Number one, you need to fire, he said, a mailstone

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Speaker 3: was one for no reason?

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Speaker 7: Did a.

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Speaker 3: Medican County fire? What is the address for the emergency?

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Speaker 8: What is.

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Speaker 5: With me?

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Speaker 2: A renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant, It's

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Speaker 2: Karen Stark at Karenstark dot com.

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Speaker 1: Karen, thank you for being with us. The man is

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Speaker 1: in tears.

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Speaker 2: The man is crying, and he says I was standing

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Speaker 2: right beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the

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Speaker 2: rest of his life.

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Speaker 9: Without a doubt.

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Speaker 10: Nancy, that trauma, terrible trauma, because just imagine I want

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Speaker 10: everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going

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Speaker 10: wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being splept.

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Speaker 11: For no reason.

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Speaker 1: Stars Karen Karen Stark, do you see the video?

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Speaker 2: The guy is walking around here, he is, he's about

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Speaker 2: to stand up, He's fun in his pocket for his knife,

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Speaker 2: plenty of time to form intent. You see what's on

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Speaker 2: the Do you see what's on the floor. He's wandering

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Speaker 2: around with a knife, dripping with blood. I guess the

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Speaker 2: nine on one caller is traumatized, Karen Stark.

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Speaker 9: Without a doubt, Absolutely, Nancy. How could you not be?

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Speaker 10: I think everyone who witnessed that would be traumatized. How

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Speaker 10: many people see something like that instantly riding on a train?

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Speaker 1: Hopefully none. Guys, we have just obtained the newly released

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Speaker 1: nine to one one calls.

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Speaker 12: Listen, lady right now on the ground with a lot

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Speaker 12: of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if anybody called on.

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Speaker 6: People are just freaking out. I want some more information.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's on the train. She's on the train, she's on.

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Speaker 12: The ground right now. There's people around her right now.

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Speaker 6: I think they're wholding pressure on this.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of luck joining us doctor Thomas Coin,

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Speaker 1: chief Medical Examiner District to Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida,

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Speaker 1: and never like a business there pathologists, psychologists and neuropathologists.

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Speaker 1: It goes on and on, doctor Coin, Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. What are they trying? Medic is trying

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Speaker 1: to explain what's happening? What's happening?

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Speaker 5: Sure?

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Speaker 8: So, I mean from watching the horrible video, you can

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Speaker 8: see that the stab womb was likely to the neck,

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Speaker 8: just around the collarbone area, and in that area you

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Speaker 8: have several major arteries. If the blade is long enough,

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Speaker 8: you could certainly have cut the aorta or some of

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Speaker 8: the branches of the aorta, including the carotid artery. Those

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Speaker 8: vessels carry blood about a half a leader to three

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Speaker 8: quarters of a leader per minute, So if you can imagine,

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Speaker 8: if that that's all is cut, you can bleed out

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Speaker 8: probably half of your total blood volume in less than

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Speaker 8: about it too minute period. So what they're trying to

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Speaker 8: do is put pressure on that area, or at least

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Speaker 8: the hopes they're trying to put pressure on that area

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Speaker 8: to stop the bleeding, but very hard to put pressure

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Speaker 8: on that area because it's your neck the collarbones in

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Speaker 8: the way, so it's hard to actually stop the blood

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Speaker 8: from splurting out. It's a most times these wounds are fatal.

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Speaker 8: It's almost impossible to get this person to the hospital

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Speaker 8: in time.

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Speaker 1: You said you can lose half your blood in less

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Speaker 1: than two minutes.

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Speaker 8: Yes, because blood flow here. These vessels carry blood at

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Speaker 8: high volume and fast rate, and so when you cut

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Speaker 8: that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the

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Speaker 8: heart beats, blood will spurret out. And yes, you could

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Speaker 8: lose you know, a couple of liters of blood within

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Speaker 8: a couple of minute windows A small a very small

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Speaker 8: window of time.

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Speaker 1: Guys, I want to hear the tone that the medic

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Speaker 1: has in the nine to one one call. Listen to

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Speaker 1: the medic.

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Speaker 12: Lady right now on the ground from a lot of blood.

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Speaker 12: Everybody's springing that she got stabbed, and I don't know

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Speaker 12: if anybody called on. People are freaking out.

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Speaker 3: I want some more information. Yeah, she's on the train.

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Speaker 12: She's on the train.

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Speaker 3: She's on the ground right now.

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Speaker 12: There's people around her right now. I think they're holding

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Speaker 12: pressure on this weesday.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of blood and Doctor Thomas Coin uh,

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Speaker 1: you're our only medical doctor today. I hear resignation. I

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Speaker 1: hear resignation. The medic's not going hurry, hurry, Harry, get here,

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Speaker 1: hurry hurry.

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Speaker 2: It's like she's on the ground. She's she's a lot

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Speaker 2: of blood. They know, don't they, Doctor Coin. Have you

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Speaker 2: ever felt that when you're trying your best to save

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Speaker 2: a patient and you know there's just nothing you can do,

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Speaker 2: but you're trying anyway.

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Speaker 8: In my earlier early years of training, yeah, and especially

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Speaker 8: in the trauma centers in the hospital where you have

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Speaker 8: you know the injury is most likely ftatable. You're doing

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Speaker 8: everything you can just to keep that patient alive. And

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Speaker 8: when you have an injury like this and you've lost

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Speaker 8: so much blood, it's almost impossible to get in there

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Speaker 8: and repair it in time to save the patient. It's

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Speaker 8: just it's a horrible experience.

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Speaker 1: I know that all of the newly released nine to

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Speaker 1: one audio is upsetting, but to me, this one with

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Speaker 1: the medic.

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Speaker 2: Made me the most upset, because you know, when you're

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Speaker 2: in a crisis situation, a lot of people, including me,

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Speaker 2: just power through it and it's only after it's over

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Speaker 2: that you think, oh my stars, I nearly X, or

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Speaker 2: she nearly X was hit by a car, or fell

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Speaker 2: off the tree, or it's after it's over that you

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Speaker 2: have a sigh of relief. But here I hear the

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Speaker 2: resignation in the medic's voice.

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Speaker 3: Listen, there's just a.

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Speaker 12: Lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood,

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Speaker 12: and everybody's bringing that she got stabbed. And I don't

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Speaker 12: know if anybody's called on one yet.

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Speaker 6: People are just freaking out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's on the train.

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Speaker 12: She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.

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Speaker 12: There's people around her right now. I think they're holding

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Speaker 12: pressure on the website.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of blood. Karon start that was the

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Speaker 1: most upsetting part of all the nine one one we're about.

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Speaker 3: To play.

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Speaker 9: Well, because you hear it in her voice when she sighs, Nancy.

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Speaker 10: But I also want to point out and watching that

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Speaker 10: video that Twynne is suffering. It's not that he stabs

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Speaker 10: her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can

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Speaker 10: very clearly see the horror on her face, the pain

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Speaker 10: and the fact that she's suffering.

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Speaker 9: Hold in her mouth before she balls down and ultimately, don.

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Speaker 1: You're right, Karen, she's looking down.

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Speaker 2: She's looking down she looked down at her stab You're right, Karen,

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Speaker 2: she's just oh, she's dying right in front of us.

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Speaker 1: Here's more of the nine on one calls the person

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Speaker 1: who's a little No, I did not.

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Speaker 12: We were on a different train park down the road

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Speaker 12: line and this is the very flat train car.

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Speaker 6: I think the person.

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Speaker 12: In the I believe it looks like them, but we're

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Speaker 12: not confident that she's gone it.

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Speaker 3: I'm not looking.

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Speaker 6: There's a lot of people around her that they're.

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Speaker 12: All saying that the pupils are blown out, and there's no.

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Speaker 1: Call back to Dodger Thomas Coin. Two things, what is

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Speaker 1: that main.

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Speaker 2: Stabbed in the carroted and and the pupils are blown out.

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Speaker 2: Whoever this is seems to have medical training.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Sure, So.

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Speaker 8: The carotid artery is that is the main artery that

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Speaker 8: supplies blood to our brain. So it travels within our

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Speaker 8: neck along the lateral sides of our neck. It's where

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Speaker 8: like you'd feel your pulse if you put your fingers

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Speaker 8: on your neck. That that's the carotid artery. And it's

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Speaker 8: one of the arteries that this certainly could have cut

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Speaker 8: in that area of her neck, and it will pump

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Speaker 8: a high volume of blood out of the body if cut.

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Speaker 8: The pupils being blown just likely indicates that she's lost

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Speaker 8: normal neurologic function. I mean, as you can imagine, if

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Speaker 8: those arteries are cut, the blood supply to her brain

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Speaker 8: has been separed, and so within probably less than a

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Speaker 8: minute's time, her brain's not getting the oxygen or blood

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Speaker 8: flow it needs. And therefore, you know, her brain's not

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Speaker 8: being responsive. So her pupils are blown, her her cranial

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Speaker 8: nerves and her brain stem are not working like they should,

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Speaker 8: and those just simply really speak to her her dire situation.

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Speaker 2: Kessler, or a veteran trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Randy,

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Speaker 2: I know you're looking at the video right now. You

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Speaker 2: do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his

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Speaker 2: bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can

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Speaker 2: consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt.

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Speaker 2: The guys getting rid of his bloody clothes before he

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Speaker 2: steps off the train, that indicates he knows there'll be

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Speaker 2: a problem if he goes out on.

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Speaker 1: That platform covered in blood, right and personally, this probably

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Speaker 1: goes more to the sentencing right.

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Speaker 4: In normal cases, at flight, if you're leaving a scene,

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Speaker 4: you're trying to get away, you're trying to escape, you're

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Speaker 4: trying to hide.

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Speaker 5: That shows you did something wrong, you're trying to get away.

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Speaker 5: In this case, we know he did.

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Speaker 1: We've got him gangut E double L n oh. I

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Speaker 1: spelled it out for you. That can be used as

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Speaker 1: evidence of guilt, of course, but what I'm telling you.

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Speaker 2: Many generations it was actually a jury charge that the

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Speaker 2: general would give the jury. Somehow that defense bar got

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Speaker 2: rid of that, but the jury can't consider that as

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Speaker 2: evidence of guilt.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to get his bloody shirt. That's not sentiencing.

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Speaker 4: No, but you don't you're right, NANSW. But you don't

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Speaker 4: leave with that. You don't leave with Look, he's covering

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Speaker 4: it up. When you got a video of him actually

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Speaker 4: stabbing her, you don't need to start with, Hey, he

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Speaker 4: was trying to cover it up. You got him dead

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Speaker 4: rights on the conviction. That's going to go further to

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Speaker 4: wasn't mentally instane, he knew that what he did was wrong.

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Speaker 4: Takes away the insanity defense, takes away any excuse for

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Speaker 4: why he did this other than.

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Speaker 1: Were you drinking. What I mean, what you drinking? Smoking?

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Speaker 1: I was going to leave with guilty conscience with that

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Speaker 1: video and the nine one one calls. That's the strongest evidence.

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Speaker 1: I would go with the video that I'm on calls,

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Speaker 1: and then the witnesses, every single person sitting in that tren.

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Speaker 2: Car, even though they didn't help, which they're going to

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Speaker 2: get cross examined on. Yes, that's then i'd bring on

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Speaker 2: doctor Thomas Coin, and then I would bring on Ron Bateman,

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Speaker 2: and then I would bring on Andy Kahn, and then

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Speaker 2: I would bring on Susan Hendrick. Just like that, but

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Speaker 2: having some guilty conscience. That's the last thing I bring on.

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Speaker 2: But you darn right, I'll bring it on.

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Speaker 5: Sure it is piling on, and it's icing on the cake.

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Speaker 5: It's extra, but really you don't need it.

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Speaker 4: That's why I think it goes more towards sentencing, because

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Speaker 4: is there a question that there's any reason why this

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Speaker 4: guy should be given any breaks. No, he knew what

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Speaker 4: he did was wrong. That's what that does for me.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't help.

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Speaker 5: You don't need it for the conviction. I mean, sooner

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Speaker 5: or later it's going to be overkilled. You got him

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Speaker 5: Dead's rights he's guilty of the crime. Now what do

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Speaker 5: we do about it?

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Speaker 6: Death?

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Speaker 1: Because he knew he can't help himself. I can't, Kessler.

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Speaker 2: I love it when defense attorneys starts saying, it's over kill.

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Speaker 2: Stop you're piling on. Isn't it true? The state has

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Speaker 2: one swing at the ball. If there's an energy not guilty,

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Speaker 2: your technical legal phrase, screwed, you have one chance.

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Speaker 1: Why not put on all your evidence.

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Speaker 2: When a defensive attorney starts squealing and whining Overkeell piling on,

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Speaker 2: that's when I really dig in.

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Speaker 4: You can use it, you can add it. But again,

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Speaker 4: it's not my emphasis. The emphasis is on the act,

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Speaker 4: the actual crime.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes you don't have.

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Speaker 4: The photographic or the videographic evidence of the killing, of

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Speaker 4: the murder, of the crime, so that's more important. In

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Speaker 4: this case, I'm just saying it's much less important than

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Speaker 4: actually what happened. What happened is terrible.

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Speaker 5: It's on video. He's done, he's convicted.

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Speaker 1: That is.

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Speaker 5: It is overkill.

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Speaker 4: It is extra sure you use it, Nancy, throw it

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Speaker 4: in there. But I would say to the jury, we're

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Speaker 4: going to show you this, but you don't really even

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Speaker 4: need it because you've already got enough to convict him.

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Speaker 4: But just in case there was any doubt, you're really

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Speaker 4: not helping the defense right now.

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Speaker 1: Now you know that, right, it really need the defense.

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Speaker 5: I'm just trying to explain for the audience.

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Speaker 1: I've got something for you, Kessler. All right, you ready,

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Speaker 1: I'm more nine to one one. Let's take a listen

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Speaker 1: to the newly released audio.

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Speaker 5: I think I'm here, man, I.

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Speaker 6: Paid, the girl might be there, man, the five person,

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Speaker 6: the guy over there's no Poe President, and the guy

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Speaker 6: that he is standing over here on the round, Yeah,

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Speaker 6: he was on the other platform. He's a black male dreadline.

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Speaker 6: He got a hand wrapped up in a red jacket,

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Speaker 6: a black teacher because the players hanging off with hand.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: In the last days, a three story beautiful mural has

385
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Speaker 2: been placed on the side of an apartment building in Bushwick.

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Speaker 1: And for some reason, people are angry. I don't get it.

387
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Speaker 2: The campaign kicked off to make sure Arena's story doesn't

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Speaker 2: just vanish. Her murder cannot be forgotten, and it is

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Speaker 2: the center of so many issues that are dogging America,

390
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Speaker 2: and that is convicted felons walking the streets with innocent

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Speaker 2: people this is what happened to Erna.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: To Susan Henry's joining US investigative journalist, author of Down

394
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Speaker 2: the Hill, My descend into the double murder in Delphi.

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Speaker 1: Susan, the nine woman caller, another one of them. You

396
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Speaker 1: know a lot of the people on the train, which

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Speaker 1: totally is totally reprehensible.

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Speaker 2: They don't even try to help her. They start videoing

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Speaker 2: her dying. What a bunch of googles. However, Yeah, go

400
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Speaker 2: on a video that I guess he posted it. Long

401
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 2: story short, several people did call nine one one, and

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Speaker 2: this last call we played describes the defendant.

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Speaker 1: He was standing on the rout.

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Speaker 2: Now he's on another platform, dreadlocks, he's got his hand

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Speaker 2: wrapped in a red jacket because he cut his hand,

406
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Speaker 2: a black T shirt. He's got on blue jeans, black

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Speaker 2: T shirt, hand wrapped up, dreads. We've got him on

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Speaker 2: video changing clothes and there he goes. Guys, this is

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Speaker 2: newly released video, and there he goes walking off like

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Speaker 2: nothing happened. Susan Hendrix. What's happening in the video right

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Speaker 2: here that we're showing.

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Speaker 13: We're seeing the police move in on this guy and

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Speaker 13: make the arrest, Nancy.

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Speaker 11: It's so disturbing.

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Speaker 13: I watched that entire video this morning. She was stepped

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Speaker 13: quickly three times in the neck, and you mentioned it earlier.

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Speaker 13: That look of horror she's looking down, probably is realizing

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Speaker 13: what is happening to her.

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Speaker 11: She's dying before very eyes.

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Speaker 13: What you're looking at now is the police move in

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Speaker 13: and that last nine one one call, Nancy. You hear

422
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 13: him say, no police presence, where is everyone? He's panicked too,

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Speaker 13: and I believe she falls over and dies before her

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Speaker 13: very eyes on that video.

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Speaker 7: That is huge.

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Speaker 11: That of course is what they'll playing port. But you're

427
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 11: looking at the arrest the video we just saw.

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Speaker 6: I think I'm here, you man. I think the girl

429
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Speaker 6: might be here man, and the power and the guy

430
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Speaker 6: over there's no hole reprove and the guy he was

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Speaker 6: standing over here on the round. Yeah, he's on the

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Speaker 6: other platform. He's a black male. Dread loove. If you

433
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 6: got a hand wrapped up in a red jacket, a

434
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Speaker 6: black teacher because the players like hanging up the tain.

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Speaker 6: He got dread Love. If you got a blue dream,

436
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Speaker 6: the black teacher and the hands wrapped up, he got

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00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 6: lauderiear oars and he no, we got.

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Speaker 12: Okay, definitely lady right now on the ground and a

439
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 12: lot of blood that everybody's breaking the lead up stuff.

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Speaker 13: That's when he got up and he subsequently stabbed her

441
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 13: three times.

442
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 12: He's on the ground right now.

443
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 6: There's people around there.

444
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 12: I mean they're pulling a treasure off.

445
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 6: He heard a lot of blood.

446
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder. And whether you

447
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like

448
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: him or hate him, it doesn't matter.

449
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: He was murdered.

450
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: Do you recall the suspect jumped down off the roof

451
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 2: and took off and tried to blend in, and he

452
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: did blend him with all the other students his age.

453
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: Same thing here.

454
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: I want you to take a look as we're playing

455
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: that nine to one one call one of them at the.

456
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: Defendant just mosying off. Okay, listen, I.

457
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 6: Think I'm the head man. I pay the girl might

458
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 6: be dead man, the five person, the guy over there's

459
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 6: no pre re president and the guy is he is

460
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 6: standing over here on the round. Yeah, he's on the

461
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 6: other platform either. He's a black male dread loss. He

462
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 6: got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket. A

463
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 6: black teachhert because the players like hanging off attaining. He

464
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 6: got dread loge, he got on Blue Jerens, the black

465
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 6: teacher and the teams wrapped up. He got laudary anywhere

466
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 6: or no, he got a black teacher on the hoodies

467
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 6: wrapping entertained.

468
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 1: Okay, and what don't want you to look at Let's

469
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: see the video please of him getting off the train

470
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: and just calmly walking away much as Tyler Robinson did.

471
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: Police are swarming the area. He's just like walking away.

472
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: Don't look at me. I'm normal. I'm not running from

473
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: the scene. I'm totally chill.

474
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: Check it out out, just wandering along until the nine

475
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: one one calls that described what he was wearing.

476
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: Nail him.

477
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: He's just blending in, Castler. He does not want to

478
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: bring attention to himself by running. His hand is dripping

479
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 2: with blood. Is he in a hurry to get to

480
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: the dock in a box? No, because he doesn't want

481
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: police to see him running.

482
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 4: Right, And these two explanations, right, One is he's so

483
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 4: clever that he's just trying to blend in and that's

484
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 4: how clever he is. Or he's got some mental issues

485
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 4: and he's mentally insane and he doesn't even realize that

486
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 4: what he did was wrong, and certainly in this case,

487
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 4: that's got a good good chance of success.

488
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 5: Right.

489
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 4: This guy is absolutely off the deep end, and you

490
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 4: see somebody like that, you immediately jump to why would

491
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 4: you do something like that? You've got to have something

492
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 4: wrong with you. It's got to go right to a

493
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 4: metal insanity defense. That's the only benefit. Otherwise you're thinking,

494
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 4: this is a normal guy who planned that kind of murder,

495
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 4: plan to just walk casually. He didn't plan this, He

496
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 4: didn't plan to get out of trouble. He just didn't

497
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 4: know where he was. You heard later, Right, he's got

498
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 4: going on in his head. He's got some metal issues.

499
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 4: That's why he was walking around as if he did

500
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 4: nothing because he mentally, yes.

501
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 2: Sir, he's got fourteen arrests and just got out of

502
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: Yael in January and immediately did this.

503
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: You know what, everybody there he is there's Kessler.

504
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 2: There is the true Kessler coming up with what some

505
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 2: would say is a brilliant argument that he had he

506
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: walked up because he didn't know he did anything wrong.

507
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: Use what today that he didn't plan the incident Randy

508
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: Kessler under the law.

509
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: Isn't it true that intent can be formed in the

510
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: blink of an eye and a twinkling of a moment,

511
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: As my old judge, Juge Luthor Alberson would say, isn't

512
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: that true?

513
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: Premeditation does not require a long drawn out plan, such

514
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months.

515
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: Isn't that true?

516
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 4: It is true, and you might have That's another point,

517
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 4: which is why did he have a knife on him

518
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 4: in the first place? That probably helps the intent or planet,

519
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 4: but the truth matters. Why would he form intent to

520
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 4: hurt this person? There's no interaction. You're talking about passion murder,

521
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 4: where you see your wife cheating with somebody else, or

522
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 4: you see something that disturbs you and throws.

523
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 5: You into a rage.

524
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: It's his wife cheating.

525
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 5: That's my point.

526
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 4: There's nothing that triggered this premeditation you talk about forming

527
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 4: you know the intent because you see something.

528
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 5: There was nothing that happened to make him form the intent.

529
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: It's just you've never had a criminal that did the

530
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: day just because they felt like it. They had an

531
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: itch and they scratched it, and.

532
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: We always say why, why, why? Why? Ask why. State

533
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't have to be why.

534
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: All I have to know is who did it? Did

535
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 1: they have intent? And am I in the right jurisdiction?

536
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: That's what I need to know, right.

537
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 4: And the defense will come up with the why. The

538
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 4: why is because he's mentally insane. Stop heartstock the explanation

539
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 4: that's going to get him any possibility of.

540
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: A defense, and very quickly if that's possible.

541
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: Randy Kessler, you're used to making long and eloquent arguments

542
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: to juries and appellate judges. But we just agreed that

543
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: intent can be formed in literally the blink of an eye.

544
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: But you were saying he's clearly mainly insane. This is

545
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: a litmus test, a yes no.

546
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: Isn't it true that the rule of insanity, the insanity test,

547
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: is the old McNaughton rule, brought over to the.

548
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: US from Great Britain, And it's one simple question. Did

549
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: the suspect know right from wrong at the time of

550
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: the incident. I don't care what he says he heard

551
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: voices last week or tomorrow.

552
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: Did he know what he did at the time was wrong?

553
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: Isn't that the old McNaughton test.

554
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 4: That's the McNaughton test, and I think it's it's very

555
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 4: applicable here because when at the time he did that, clearly,

556
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 4: it's going to be easy to argue he did not

557
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 4: know that what he was doing was wrong. He was

558
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 4: acting under some impulse, some mental diagnosis, some alternate personality,

559
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 4: something made him do that.

560
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: Clearly personality did you just pull that out of here?

561
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 6: Out of my way?

562
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: What schools?

563
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 5: The bottom line is he did this, and did he

564
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 5: know right from wrong at the moment he did it.

565
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 5: And you can almost argue that anybody doing something like

566
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 5: that must not have known what they were doing. Why

567
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 5: else would they do it? There's no other reason. It's

568
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 5: not somebody he knew. It's not somebody.

569
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: Why, Why does it matter?

570
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 5: That's what you have.

571
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 14: Moments after allegedly stabbing Irena Brown captured on video, nonchalanty

572
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 14: walking the platform of the train station, Police with weapons

573
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 14: drawn and up, surround the suspected killer, taking him to

574
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 14: the ground and taking him into custody. On the train,

575
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 14: Brown was described as wearing a hoodie. Now he's wearing

576
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 14: a black T shirt with the bloody hoodie wrapped around

577
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 14: his hands.

578
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: And here he comes just walking along cavalierly, calmly, don't

579
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: look at me. Nothing to see. Oops. I guess they

580
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: got my description. Joining me and all Star pound to

581
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: makes sense of what we know right now?

582
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 2: Straight out to Ron Bateman, former homicide detective, former undercover

583
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: narc former sheriff, and author of a crime fiction series,

584
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: Silent Blue Tears, his new book coming out next week.

585
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: Question to you, Ron Bateman, when you know when you

586
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: see the police closing in, very often the Fennants.

587
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: Do not run.

588
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: They try to blend in, like Tyler Robinson did after

589
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: he allegedly shot Charlie Kirk. He came down off the

590
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: top of that ruth and then he didn't run. He

591
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 2: walked with Grandpa's long gun.

592
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: And then hit it. See what I mean. That's just

593
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: an example I'm giving you that everyone is familiar with.

594
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 15: Yeah, and it really goes to speak to his intent.

595
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 15: We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes,

596
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 15: and you'll see him if you play the video back,

597
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 15: you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding

598
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 15: blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He

599
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 15: had to think about that, and then I believe when

600
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 15: he was stabbing the victim. I believe it's not a

601
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 15: lock blade. It actually closed and cut his finger, and

602
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 15: that's why all the blood is dripping out on the

603
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 15: floor of the train. But then the further show is intent.

604
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 15: He has the wherewithal. Remember we're talking about a guy

605
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 15: who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which is bull crap.

606
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 15: He has the wherewithal to try to conceal his identity.

607
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 15: He takes off the hoodie, he wraps his hand in

608
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 15: the hoodie. He tries to conceal his identity. He tries

609
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 15: to and walk among the patrons. Let's not even talk

610
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 15: about all the people on the train that didn't do

611
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 15: a thing.

612
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: That's another topic, not a dam n thing, not a thing.

613
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: In fact, some of them, in addition not doing anything

614
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: to help Arena, they actually started videoing her as she's dying.

615
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm glad you brought up what you did, Ron Bateman,

616
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: about the folding knife.

617
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: Unlike the fixed blade knife used by Brian Koberger to

618
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: butcher for innocent Idaho students, this is a folding blade

619
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: used in the murder of Arena to Randy Kessler.

620
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: Uh oh, where's Kessler? Don't see him? Let's see him Kesler, go.

621
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: Ahead and get you kleenex, because many people would argue

622
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: one two seconds don't matter what they do under the law.

623
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: The time it takes, and you can see it on

624
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: video him fidgeting around, digging in his pockets to get

625
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: the kne life. Then he unfolds the knife and positions it.

626
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: That buys me about five more seconds to form intent.

627
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: Way when Kessler, yeah, well.

628
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 4: I don't know what you're going to do, and I

629
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 4: don't know what you want me to do with that.

630
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 4: He opened the knife and he did something with it.

631
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 4: But did he know what he was doing? Did he

632
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 4: know that he was actually did he think it was him?

633
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 5: His argument is going to be some other personality to go.

634
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: I think it was him.

635
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 5: Wait what, Yes, listen to the videos, Listen to the argument.

636
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: I think it was due.

637
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 4: He did not think it was himself. He thought of

638
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 4: somebody else in his body, somebody else making him do this.

639
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 4: He was obviously mentally disturbed. He didn't form the content.

640
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 4: Something in his brain went wrong and made him do that.

641
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: That's the mental insanity defense that he's going to have

642
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 4: to use. I don't know what else he has.

643
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: In the last hours, Newly obtained nine to one one

644
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 2: audio and video.

645
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: Now, this is video from the public transport train.

646
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: There's plenty of video circulating out there because many of

647
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 2: the train riders, the patrons, instead of trying to help Arena, started.

648
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: Videoing her as she died.

649
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 2: Let's see thirty eight showing Arena getting onto the train

650
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 2: and taking her seat, minding her own business. She worked

651
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: two jobs, new to the US, seeking a better life,

652
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 2: according to her family, and God bless her soul.

653
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: Look who is sitting behind her, and he's staring at

654
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: her right now.

655
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: Like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on,

656
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: looks around, and takes a seat fortuitously in front of

657
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 2: the defendant. Let's move to thirty nine. I want you

658
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: to see the defendant moving in his seat. This is

659
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: what we call time deform intent, fidgeting with the knife,

660
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: and we're stopping it right there. We don't need to

661
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: see the next frame. I'll see it again time right

662
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: there under the law to form intent. She comes and

663
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 2: sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like

664
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it,

665
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 2: unfolds it, and stands up to murder her. Let's move

666
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 2: to forty. This video showing a close up of the

667
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: defendant's hands. That's Arena's hat. Look if that's not intent,

668
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: that is intent.

669
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 1: What do you have to say to that? Keep on

670
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: the video, Kessler, look at that. I'm totally gonna slow

671
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: mow that for the jury.

672
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 5: So I've maintained all along this is a case about sentencing. Right.

673
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 4: You can tell me all day long that it's not

674
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 4: just about sensing. You're going to get a conviction, but

675
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 4: what made him do that? You say, the why doesn't matter.

676
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 4: Jury's always want to know why. And you know what,

677
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 4: if there's a mental insanity of defense, the why is

678
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 4: going to matter. And that's going to be the only

679
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 4: thing he has if he goes to trial to argue

680
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 4: is that he was out of his mind, he did

681
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 4: not know what he was doing, he was being controlled, possessed,

682
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 4: whatever it is. Because you're right. Otherwise you've got the intention,

683
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 4: the you've got the conviction. If he doesn't use him an.

684
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: Sore, if he was quote possessed all the other fourteen times,

685
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: maybe that he committed a crime, some of them violent.

686
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: This is not age progression, people. This is just a

687
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 2: few of his many arrests. Can I see Kessler, because

688
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: I don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're

689
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: putting up Kessler. Did you actually just say maybe he

690
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 2: was possessed. You're going to bring demonic spirits in as

691
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: a defense.

692
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: I can't wait. Is that what you just said? I

693
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: heard it. I can play it back.

694
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 4: You said he using a laborerson term. It's you know,

695
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 4: you want to use psychological term schizophrenic. Somebody he thought

696
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 4: that he was possessed. He thought that somebody else was

697
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 4: in his body, some sort of government device was in

698
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 4: his body. He thought something else was going He is

699
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 4: not owning this act. You do not say I don't

700
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 4: know why I did this. He was saying, look, you know,

701
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 4: I don't know what happened, but they need to scan me,

702
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 4: they need to investigate me. They need to figure this out.

703
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 4: Something was going on in his brain, and we don't

704
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 4: understand brains yet far enough to understand why this happened.

705
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 5: But clearly he did not say I did it and

706
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, or I can't figure out why I did it.

707
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 5: He doesn't seem to have any recollection, so it's a

708
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 5: mental health defense.

709
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: It's clearly recollection.

710
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: I can tell you this is the death nil for

711
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 2: the defense When a JD starts talking.

712
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: Like an MD. I just heard you trying to describe

713
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: the human brain. Good luck with that.

714
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: I know my limitations. I am not Did you hear

715
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: me talking to Coin? I know that I don't know,

716
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: but I love you theorizing on his brain function. I

717
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: want to go to a special guest joining us any Con.

718
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 2: He is director of Victim Services and Advocacy Crime Stoppers

719
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: out of Houston. Longtime friend and colleague who for to

720
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: introduce me to murderabilia people making money off murder?

721
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: Andy Con?

722
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: How many times have you heard a defense attorney much

723
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: like Randy Kessler joining us tonight state he didn't know

724
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 2: what he was doing? Well, you know what, he knew

725
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: what train stopped to get off, didn't he He needed

726
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 2: to take off that bloody shirt and wrap it around

727
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: his hand, not just the hurt hand that he sliced himself,

728
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: but to change clothes. He got off that train at

729
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 2: the very next stop and tried to walk away.

730
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: Hit it.

731
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 16: Andy, You know the video speaks volumes. I mean, there's

732
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 16: no way of answer. But he knew exactly what he

733
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 16: was doing. He tried to cover up, but the real

734
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 16: story to.

735
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 7: Me is you had a young lady who fled war torn,

736
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 7: war torn Ukraine only to end up being murdered in

737
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 7: the United States. Now we look at what happened with

738
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 7: the defendant. This defendants got a rap sheet yalong fourteen

739
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 7: arrest and in and out of jail, in and out

740
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 7: of prisons, in and out of mental hospitals, and so forth.

741
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 7: This is a total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure.

742
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 16: This is a tragedy, yes, but it was so utterly preventable.

743
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 16: And my position again.

744
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 7: Is we continue to allow repeat offenders right back into

745
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 7: our community to do what they do best, and that's

746
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 7: commit crimes. This is not just a North Carolina it's

747
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 7: a national issue. In Houston, we've documented over two hundred

748
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 7: plus people that have been murdered by defendants released on

749
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 7: what's called a personal recognance bond, which is what this

750
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 7: defendant was recently released on.

751
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 16: That is about as disturbing as it gets. And I'm

752
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 16: hoping that this will ultimately open.

753
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 7: Up everybody's eyes, not just in North Carolina, but all

754
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 7: over the country that the criminal justice reform movement has

755
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 7: led to more victimization, more murders.

756
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 16: Than any other natural disaster in this country's history.

757
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray.

758
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: Why are people angry about a mural of slain Ukrainian?

759
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: A hardworking, beautiful young girl slain on a public rail system,

760
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 2: broad daylight?

761
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: This is what happened.

762
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix joining US investigator journalists. I want to follow

763
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 2: up on what Andy Khan just said.

764
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: This guy just got out of jail again, Why who

765
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: let him out of jail?

766
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 11: Exactly?

767
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 13: And it was mentioned of reform laws, they're not working fourteen.

768
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 13: When you put up those mug shots, Nancy, and that's

769
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 13: not all of them, you think, how could this guy

770
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 13: have gotten out?

771
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 11: What was he doing there in the first place? The

772
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 11: governor signing a law in her name, Arena's law. But

773
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 11: he even says, look, this isn't enough.

774
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 13: It's a step in the right direction, but it's clearly

775
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 13: not enough, meaning it will take away some of the

776
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 13: power from the judges to make that decision in letting

777
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 13: someone who has priors out of prison.

778
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 2: Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about

779
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:34,439
Speaker 2: as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name

780
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 2: is Judge Teresa Stokes. Let's listen.

781
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 14: In September twenty twenty two. Brown arrested on assault on

782
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 14: a female an injury to property. April twenty twenty four.

783
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 14: Brown arrested for misusing nine one one May twenty twenty four,

784
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 14: misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five, misusing nine

785
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 14: one one January twenty twenty five. Judge Theresa Stokes release

786
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 14: Brown the same day he was arrested on a written

787
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 14: promise to appear. Brown did not present himself for evaluation

788
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 14: three weeks later. He is alleged to have killed Irena.

789
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 14: If that order was followed, he would have been evaluated

790
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 14: weeks before the stabbing. The public defender in his murdered

791
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 14: charge filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity, and Wiggins

792
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 14: again ordered d be evaluated. Police have not identified any

793
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 14: motive or lengthy attack to mental illness in the last hours.

794
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: Newly released nine to one one audio and video. Let's

795
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: take a look.

796
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: This video is showing the defendant calmly waiting to exit

797
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 2: the train.

798
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 1: He knows exactly what he's doing, making way for people.

799
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: And look at everybody walking around the blood.

800
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 2: Yeah they didn't help her, but they don't want to

801
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: get their tennis shoes bloody. And there he goes he

802
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 2: knows exactly what's going on around him. He knows when

803
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 2: the train door opens that this is his exit, and

804
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 2: he's leaving. Aranda, by the way, is bleeding out dead

805
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: right now. Two Randy Kessler joining us. This is not

806
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 2: only a state case, but a federal case as well.

807
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: Explain why a special fleet of lawyers have been appointed

808
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: that are death qualified?

809
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

810
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 4: Because you want to make it appeal proof, right, lawyers

811
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 4: that are qualified to take on death penalty cases. Then

812
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 4: he can't after the fact say well, I had ineffective

813
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 4: assistance of counsel. My lawyers didn't understand how to handle

814
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 4: a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and the conviction, straightforward,

815
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 4: easy as that.

816
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 2: The case will get reversed if there is a conviction,

817
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: if there is a death penalty sentence, if the lawyers

818
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: are not death qualified. In other words, you have to

819
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 2: sit on x number of death penalty cases either first

820
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: chair or second chair. So you know what you're doing

821
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 2: has got to be a fair fight, now, isn't a

822
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: true Susan Hendrix that Hey, the suspect has been sent

823
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 2: for evaluation, mental evaluation to see if he is competent

824
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 2: to stand trial.

825
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 11: Yes, absolutely, he is and will be evaluated.

826
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 13: I was listening to a prison phone call between him

827
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 13: and his sister, and he doesn't make any sense.

828
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 11: I don't know if that's because he is insane or

829
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 11: he's acting like he does have a problem. But I

830
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 11: think they will, of course be brought into court and he.

831
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 13: Will be evaluated. And I think that that's the way

832
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 13: the defense will go. But how can you erase these

833
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 13: fourteen mugshots in all and the video there is just,

834
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 13: like you said, Nancy planning this out, opening the knife

835
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 13: and doing it. He said to his sister in the

836
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 13: jailhouse call that he felt that they wanted him.

837
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 5: To do it.

838
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 11: He didn't do it, he was told to do it.

839
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 11: We'll see if that works.

840
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: I doubt it, you know, Kessler, there's a big difference

841
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: in evaluating someone for incompetency and insanity. Explain and a nutshell,

842
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 2: what is incompetency?

843
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 5: Well, competency you have to understand the proceedings.

844
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 6: It's not fair.

845
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 4: You can't help the lawyer defend you if you're incompetent

846
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 4: to stand trial if you don't understand the proceedings. To

847
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 4: get off the hook for murder, you have to have

848
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 4: been insane at the time that it happened that the

849
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 4: thing happened. In Competency is more a question of ability

850
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 4: to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings? You need

851
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 4: to be able to help in your own defense, and

852
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 4: if you're not able to help in your own defense,

853
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 4: then you don't have a trial until you are able

854
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 4: to assist in your own defense.

855
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: Nutshell, I kel slur.

856
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 2: Would you agree that competency is being able to assist

857
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: your lawyers in your defense at your trial? Competent you

858
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 2: are competent to assist your defense attorneys?

859
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:55,479
Speaker 1: Yes, okay?

860
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: And insanity is whether you knew right from wrong at

861
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 2: the time of the incident. The time of arena is killing.

862
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 2: They're two very different.

863
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: Things, right.

864
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 5: Don't like to agree with you, but yes, So first.

865
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: The lawyer is going to try to get enrled incompetent.

866
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 2: Why delay, delay, delay, That's the first and the last

867
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: rule in the defense playbook.

868
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: Why people forget about it.

869
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 2: Their memories fade, Witnesses actually die, important witnesses actually die

870
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 2: or move, you can't find them, and the inflammation surrounding

871
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 2: the murder of an innocent young woman can die d

872
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: help people forget about it.

873
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: That's why the defense wants a delay. Would you at

874
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: least agree with.

875
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 4: That, Yes, And it's probably easier to find incompetent at

876
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 4: the time of trial than insanity at the time.

877
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 5: How do you get inside of.

878
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 4: His mind at that exact moment, whereas right now they

879
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 4: can interview him, Now, we can have a psychologists test him. Now,

880
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 4: you know, it's easier for just to say I'm going

881
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 4: to put off the trial than do say, oh, we're

882
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 4: going to let them off hook for murder because of insanity.

883
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 4: So it's an easier thing to argue for the defense council,

884
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 4: and you get a second bite at the apple. If

885
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 4: you lose that argument, you still can argue insanity at

886
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 4: the time of the murder.

887
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 2: Right So if at some point, if he is rehabbed

888
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then

889
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 2: when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity.

890
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 1: And there are a host of variations.

891
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 2: There's guilty but mentally ill, there's not guilty by reason

892
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: of insanity, there's guilty but insane.

893
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: Just a whole variation of what a jury can come

894
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: back on. Just throw me a few choices.

895
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 4: Kessler I mean, you've named them. It really doesn't matter

896
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 4: what you call him, and it's state by state. Each

897
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 4: state calls them different things. But you're giving the jury options.

898
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 4: If there are people on the jury that say there's

899
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 4: something wrong with him, I can't find that he is

900
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 4: a normal person that just intentionally went after this person.

901
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 14: And did it.

902
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,919
Speaker 5: I want to give him some minor little break because

903
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 5: he's got mental issues.

904
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 4: They all to do use one of those other excuses

905
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 4: to convict and say he had mental issues. Mental you know,

906
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 4: but you're right you named three or four of them.

907
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 4: They're called a whole bunch of different things depending on

908
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 4: which state you're in. But there are other options besides

909
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 4: murder one.

910
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: What about Andy Kahn?

911
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 16: You know, as much as you want to blame the offender,

912
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 16: and obviously he deserves a lot of blame, what happened

913
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 16: to this young lady, I blame our criminal justice system

914
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 16: even more. They kept knowingly allowing.

915
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 7: Him to re enter society time and time again, only

916
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,919
Speaker 7: to see him reoffend time and time again. And how

917
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 7: on the heck do you justify giving someone are you

918
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 7: no bond? A cash no cash bond and.

919
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 16: Say here, you know, appear in court.

920
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 7: That's insane to actually allow someone with his rap sheet

921
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 7: just to walk out of court on the promise that

922
00:50:55,920 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 7: you'll reappear again. This is what's driving our system and

923
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 7: why the public has just lost faith because we keep

924
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 7: seeing offenders like him that are recycled all over the time,

925
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 7: and they end up killing people. This was a tragedy,

926
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 7: but it was so utterly preventable and it's a total

927
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 7: systematic failure.

928
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 16: And I know you'll agree with me on this, Nancy,

929
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 16: but I get sick.

930
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 7: And tired of naming laws after dead people. And now

931
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,240
Speaker 7: we have a new law named after Arena that hopefully

932
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 7: others won't end up with the same fate as she.

933
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 16: Has now become.

934
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 17: Despite all of this past documented criminal history, when Brown

935
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 17: was arrested yet again in January of this past year,

936
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 17: a Democrat judge who will I will add was a supporter,

937
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 17: a strong supporter of former Vice President Kamala Harris, released

938
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 17: this insane criminal once again without requiring him to pay

939
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 17: any bail. He simply had to sign a written promise

940
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 17: to return for his court hearing.

941
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: Think about how crazy.

942
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 17: It is to ask a career criminal, someone who by

943
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 17: definition repeatedly breaks the law to just sign a written

944
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 17: promise and come back again another day. This is madness.

945
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 17: This monster should have been locked up and Arena should

946
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 17: still be alive.

947
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 2: From Fox straight Out to Karen's Stark forensics psychologist renowned

948
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 2: TV radio trauma expert Karen way In, I.

949
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 10: Have to tell you, Nancy, Yes, this guy has been diagnosed,

950
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 10: I've heard with schizophrenia.

951
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 9: But I see intent. He knew to have that knife.

952
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 10: He fled after he committed that crime, and when her

953
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 10: sister said to him, why did you do that?

954
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 9: Why did you do that to this citizen person?

955
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 10: And he said she was reading my mind, which tells

956
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 10: me that he has a rationalization that he actually, after

957
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 10: the fact, was trying to explain what he did, which

958
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 10: means that he knows the difference.

959
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,439
Speaker 9: He understands he did something, and he wants to come

960
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 9: up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent.

961
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 9: I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing.

962
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 2: Ron Bateman joining me, former homicide detective, former undercover narc

963
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 2: and author of a series Silent Blue Tears. You can

964
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 2: find it at Ronbatemanbooks dot com. Ron is The investigators here,

965
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 2: much like yourself, have their work.

966
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: Cut out for them. They don't have to prove just

967
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,240
Speaker 1: what happened. They've got the right guy. Now the state,

968
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 1: including investigators, are going to have to prove he knew

969
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: what he was doing and that it was wrong. Ron,

970
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: how do you go about doing that?

971
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 15: Well, you know, you got to ask the question which

972
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 15: is really obvious. If you didn't know what he was

973
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 15: doing was wrong, then why did he leave his seat?

974
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 15: If he was completely schizophrenic and didn't know what was

975
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 15: going on, what he did was right, he would have

976
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 15: stayed put. But we know we've already talked about it.

977
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 15: He did all those things. He tried to conceal his

978
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 15: identity and tried to burn into the crowd and blah

979
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 15: blah blah, try to cover his hand up and all that.

980
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 15: But I got to make one point that the community

981
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 15: is crying about that. Maybe you don't hear, Nancy, but

982
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 15: I do. What the hell is wrong with the media

983
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 15: by Keith repeatedly showing these this murder over and over again.

984
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 15: Thank god your staff didn't do it today. We saw

985
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 15: Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen this poor

986
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 15: girl staff a thousand times. Are we so desensitized? That

987
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 15: we have totally thrown away the victims dignity and respect.

988
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 15: That her parents probably most likely saw this and didn't

989
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 15: learn about it in private like they should have. This

990
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 15: is really despicable that the media released this video. Now

991
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 15: you can release stills of the suspects so we can

992
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 15: find them good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department,

993
00:54:58,280 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 15: you know, I don't know if it was a PIA

994
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 15: that went out Public Information Act request, but they've released

995
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 15: it and they didn't give it any thought, and it

996
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 15: was just for a god darn sound bite. And that's

997
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 15: bull crap. That is so desensitized. Desensitivity is just altho charts.

998
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 1: Andy con He's right.

999
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 7: We are caring more about defendants rights than we are

1000
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 7: about victims' rights, and we repeatedly see this with crime

1001
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 7: scene photos being sold online, videos being made of victims

1002
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 7: that are murdered. And she deserves better. But again I'm

1003
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 7: going to close with this. The defendant fair share of

1004
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 7: the blame. But this is a total systematic failure. It

1005
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 7: never should have happened. You cannot continue to continue to

1006
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 7: recycle offenders over and over again and expect a better outcome.

1007
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 7: She paid the ultimate price, the only question is how

1008
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 7: many more are going to pay the price under the

1009
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 7: guise of criminal justice reform that has taking its toll

1010
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 7: on all our citizens throughout the country.

1011
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:08,359
Speaker 16: Enough is enough?

1012
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 5: This has to end.

1013
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: Hey Nancy, Yeah, jump Han please, yeah.

1014
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 15: But I want to say, you know, we're so we

1015
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 15: were so hell bent on showing this video over and

1016
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 15: over again. Are we going to show a firing squad, which,

1017
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 15: by the way, I could clear my schedule for that day.

1018
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 15: Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No,

1019
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 15: that's where not because we just care about this little

1020
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 15: cool SoundBite to get some attention, which is horrible, horrible

1021
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 15: for the victims.

1022
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 2: And I assume you're referring to the moment that Arena

1023
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 2: was actually stabbed, doctor Coin. Question to you, many people

1024
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 2: want to believe that Arena's death was instantaneous, that she

1025
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 2: felt nothing, that one moment she's looking at her phone.

1026
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 2: In the next moment, she's looking at angels. That's not

1027
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 2: what happened, Doctor Coin.

1028
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: She suffered.

1029
00:56:58,000 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 7: No.

1030
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 8: I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious,

1031
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 8: you know, within a minute or just less, but she

1032
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 8: certainly would have felt that stab wound and you could

1033
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 8: see when she looked at her attacker. She certainly would

1034
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 8: have had that sudden rush of fear and panic before

1035
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 8: she passed out.

1036
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 2: A beautiful young girl, Arena Zaritska, comes to America for

1037
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 2: a better life, leaving war torn Ukraine and ends up

1038
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 2: getting stabbed dead by a convicted felon on a light

1039
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 2: rail in Charlotte, North Carolina.

1040
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: Why why was he free? Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend.