1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So today we are 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: going to talk about a very controversial trial. If you 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: have ever been frustrated by the criminal justice system, this 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: is not going to help, but it may at least 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: offer the knowledge that the problems that many people experience 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: in that system, and how biased and unfair it can be, 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: particularly to people who are not wealthy, have always been around. 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: This is the story of a poisoning and a trial 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: and a whole lot of bias in that trial. We 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: are talking about Eliza Fenning, who worked as a cook 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: in a London household until she found herself in the 14 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: middle of a very serious poisoning accusation. So Elizabeth Fenning, 15 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: who went by Eliza, was born on June tenth, seventeen 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: ninety three to William and Mary Fenning. William was a 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: soldier and was stationed on the Caribbean island of Dominica. 18 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 1: That's where Eliza was born. The Fennings had nine other 19 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: children in addition to Eliza, but she was the only 20 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: one of the ten to survive to adulthood. In the 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: late seventeen nineties, William's regiment moved to Dublin, and then 22 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: in eighteen o two he was discharged and the family 23 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: moved to London. William got a job selling potatoes, Mary 24 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: worked as an upholsterer, and Eliza started working when she 25 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: was fourteen. In March of eighteen fifteen, so at the 26 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: age of twenty one, Eliza was working as a cook 27 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: in the home of Robert Gregson Turner. She had not 28 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: been there long. Her higher date was January thirtieth of 29 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: that year. Robert Turner is described as a law stationer, 30 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: and while some accounts of this whole story have kind 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: of misinterpreted this to suggest that he practiced law, it 32 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: actually means that he sold and provided the kinds of 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: supplies that legal offices and lawyers would need, like the 34 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: various forms and log books, etc. Robert and his wife 35 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: Charlotte Turner lived at number sixty eight Chancery Lane, with 36 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: a housemaid named Sarah Pierre, two apprentices named Roger Gadsden 37 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: and Thomas King. Robert's father, or Labar Turner, was Robert's 38 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: business partner, and he was often in the home as 39 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: well as were two part time clerks, and this was 40 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: overall a very young household. Robert was only twenty four, 41 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: Charlotte was twenty three, and those two apprentices were just 42 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: eighteen and sixteen. That misinterpretation amuses me a little bit, 43 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: because to me, it's very obvious that a law stationer 44 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: who would be someone who sells supplies or law. On 45 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: March twenty first, Eliza prepared dinner for the turn nurse 46 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: that included Roger, Charlotte and Orlabar, and according to Orlabar's account, 47 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: they had rump steak, potatoes and yeast dumplings. Before dinner 48 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: was over, Charlotte Turner excused herself to her room, where 49 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: she experienced what she told her husband and father in 50 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 1: law was a quote violent sickness. Robert and Orlabar were 51 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: soon very sick as well. The father in law stated 52 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: later that he quote vomited dreadfully. A Princess Gadsden and 53 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: Eliza were also sick. The family's doctor, Henry Ogilvie, was 54 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: called to help. He arrived at five o'clock and several 55 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: hours later, at around eight thirty pm, he asked a colleague, 56 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: surgeon John Marshall, to also come and give an opinion. 57 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: Marshall believed Robert Turner might actually die. All of the 58 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: affected members of the household were prescribed fluids in great 59 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: quantities in the hopes that what the doctor believed to 60 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: be poisoned would be flushed out of their systems, and 61 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: over the course of several days they did all improve. 62 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: But from the very first or Labar suspected that Eliza 63 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: had poisoned them all. Eliza was arrested on March twenty third, 64 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: which was a Thursday. Police officer William Thistleton found her 65 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: still quite sick when he arrived to take her into custody. 66 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: That day, she was charged with attempted murder. She was 67 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: held in an infirmary ward at Clarkenwell Prison for four 68 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: days before being brought before the Hatton Garden Magistrates to 69 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: determine if her case would go to trial. Witness testimony 70 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: was included. Roger Gadsden, one of Turner's apprentices, stated that 71 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: he had wandered into the kitchen where Eliza was as 72 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: the dinner was being cleared. He had seen the dumplings 73 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,799 Speaker 1: and had tried to take some and as a quick aside, 74 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: here there are lots of foods that are called dumplings 75 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: in different cultures and even different regions within the same culture. 76 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: So just so you understand, the dumplings that we're talking 77 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: about here are a type traditionally made with flower and wit, 78 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: kind of formed into little a dough that's then cut 79 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: into little pieces their seasonings, and then those pieces are 80 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: poached in a stalker a stew. But though Gadsden thought 81 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: these dumplings looked appealing, according to his testimony, Eliza tried 82 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: to shoo him away from them, saying that they were 83 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: cold and heavy, But he did eat some and he 84 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: became ill, just as the Turners had. But Eliza also 85 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: ate some of those leftover dumplings, and she also, as 86 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: we mentioned, got sick. Oral of our Turner was suspicious 87 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 1: of the fact that everyone got sick, so he searched 88 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: the house for arsenic. He did not find any, but 89 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: there actually was some in the house, and that was 90 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: not unusual for any household at the time. Arsenic was 91 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: the primary way to handle rats and mice. The parcel 92 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: of arsenic in the Turner home was kept in an 93 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: office drawer, and it was there to make sure that 94 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: none of his documents got gnawed on by unwanted pests. Yeah, 95 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: we'll talk about whether that arsenic was there or not 96 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: in just a bit. But according to or Labar Turner, 97 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: he examined the pan where the dumplings had been mixed 98 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: and he found what he thought was a suspicious powder 99 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: on the bottom when questioned about this dish in court. 100 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: And we're using some various terms interchangeably throughout this, in 101 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: terms of dish, pan and bowl, because they all get 102 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: used interchangeably, and it's unclear exactly what the actual vessel was. 103 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: But just so you know, but when she was questioned 104 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: about this dish, Eliza stated she had been the only 105 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: one to mix the dumplings in it. Or Labar kept 106 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: the dish and its contents so that it could be 107 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: examined by the two doctors, John Marshall and Ogilvie. When 108 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: John Marshall arrived at the Turner house after being called 109 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: the day of the poisonings, he found Eliza conscious but 110 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: quite limp, on the stairs. She said she had been 111 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: vomiting a great deal. Marshall checked on all the sick 112 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: family members, as well as Eliza and Gadsden, and determined 113 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: that they had likely all been poisoned, and he also 114 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: determined that there was indeed arsenic in the bottom of 115 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: the pan that Eliza had been using. If you knew 116 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: anything about poisoning history, you know that that was not 117 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,119 Speaker 1: an exact science in terms of identifying arsenic at this point. 118 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: So just remember that as we go through this well, 119 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: by having made dumplings, I'm like, could it have been flower? 120 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: It will come up on the stand. The Charlotte Turner 121 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: gave testimony that made it clear she believed that Eliza 122 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: had poisoned the family. She told the court that three 123 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: weeks before the arsenic in the dumplings, as it was believed, 124 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: she and Eliza had gotten into an argument. Charlotte stated 125 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: that Eliza had some quote indelicacy in her conduct and 126 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: she was thinking of firing her, but took pity on her. 127 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: In the weeks between the argument and the poisoning, Ali, 128 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: she said, had been telling Missus Turner that she made 129 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: wonderful dumplings and that the Turners must allow her to 130 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: make some for dinner. On Monday, March twentieth, Eliza told 131 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: Charlotte that she had received an order of yeast from 132 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: the brewer, which she had procured so she could make 133 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: dumplings for dinner the following night. Charlotte also stated that 134 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: she had seen the dumpling dough and thought that it 135 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: looked suspicious, describing it as flat, black and heavy. Sarah Pierre, 136 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: the housemaid, was also called and she stated that she 137 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: heard Eliza say after her argument with Missus Turner that 138 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: she would quote never like them anymore. With all this testimony, 139 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: prosecutors got their committal. Eliza was given three choices. She 140 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: could be set free on bail with two sureties each 141 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: in the amount of fifty dollars, She could do a 142 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: year of incarceration at Clarkenwell, or she could stand trial. 143 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: She opted for the trial because she didn't want to 144 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: burden her parents financially and she thought it would be 145 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: the fastest solution. Her trial bait was set for April 146 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: eleventh at the Old Bailey. Yes, so all of this testiment, 147 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: why we've talked about up to this point, is essentially 148 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: her arraignment. Some of it will repeat a little bit 149 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: when we get to the trial, but just fy so 150 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: you don't become confused. During all of this, Eliza had 151 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: a sweetheart, a young man named Edward. We don't have 152 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: a lot of information about him beyond that, but we 153 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: do know that Eliza wrote him letters while she was 154 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: in custody. The first of these explains her situation, as 155 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: well as a degree of embarrassment about the whole thing. 156 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: She wrote quote, Dear Edward, you may be truly surprised 157 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: at me for not writing or sending to you, But 158 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: no doubt you have heard what has happened to me. 159 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: For I now lay ill in the infirmary, sick ward 160 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: at the New Clarkenwell Prison, for on last Tuesday week 161 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: I had some yeast dumplings to make, and there was 162 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: something in which I cannot answer for, And they made 163 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: four of us, including myself, dangerously ill. As an side, 164 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: there were actually five, but I'm not sure why she 165 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: maybe didn't count Gadsden, I don't know. And because I 166 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: made them, they suspect me that I have put something 167 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: in them, which I assure you I am innocent of. 168 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: But I expect I shall be cleared on Thursday. If 169 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: in case I can't attend, I shall never be right 170 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: or happy again to think I was ever in prison. 171 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: Eliza's mother visited her several times a day in the 172 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: infirmary to help take care of her, and as it 173 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: fell to the Fennings to pay the prison to cover 174 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: the costs of Eliza's incarceration, they had to sell a 175 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: lot of their possessions to do so. We'll get into 176 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: the particulars of Eliza Fenning's trial after we pause for 177 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: a sponsor break. Mister John Kearney, King's counsel, was the 178 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: prosecutor in Eliza's case, and a barrister named Peter Ali 179 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: was her defense. Charlotte Turner was once again called to testify, 180 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: and she was asked about that time that she had 181 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: scolded Eliza. She was asked, quote, what was the reason 182 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: that you reproved her? Charlotte's answer was, quote, I observed 183 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: her one night go into the young men's room partly undressed. 184 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: I said it was very indecent of her to go 185 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: into the young men's room undressed. Charlotte Turner also stated 186 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: that after this, Eliza was generally sullen and disrespectful. She 187 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: also stated that even though she did not like to 188 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: trouble the brewer for yeast, preferring to get ready made 189 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: dough from the baker, Eliza had gone ahead and gotten 190 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: the yeast from him anyway. Charlotte also stated that she 191 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: had instructed Eliza how to make the dumplings, and also 192 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: to make a beefsteak pie for the apprentices to have 193 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: for dinner that same day. Missus Turner also told the 194 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: court that Sarah Pierre had been busy on March twenty 195 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: first and had not been in the kitchen with Eliza. 196 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: She also said that though the dough for the dumplings 197 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: had been set in its pan before the fire to rise, 198 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: it never did. Of Eliza's dough, Charlotte said, quote, I 199 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: observed it never did rise. I took off the cloth 200 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: and looked at it. My observation was it had not risen, 201 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: and it was in a very singular position, in which 202 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: position it remained until it was divided into dumplings. It 203 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: was not put into the pan as I have seen dough. 204 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: Its shape was singular. It retained that shape till the last. 205 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: I am confident it never was meddled with after it 206 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: had been put there. Just the longest way to say, 207 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: the dough looked weird to me. Yeah. Charlotte then described 208 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: for the court the way that she had begun to 209 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: feel sick after eating just a small piece of dumpling. 210 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: She estimated she had only eaten a quarter of one. 211 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: She described being quote affected in the stomach, very faint, 212 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: and an extreme burning pain which increased with every minute 213 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: she was She told the court surprise that no one 214 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: came to check on her, but then when she made 215 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: her way downstairs about half an hour after she had retired, 216 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: she found that her husband and father in law were 217 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: also quite sick. When or Labar Turner was brought to 218 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: the stand as a witness, he stated he had become 219 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: sick within three minutes of eating Eliza's dumplings. He said 220 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: that he barely made it into the yard before throwing up, 221 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: and that quote I felt considerable heat across my stomach 222 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: and chest and pain. He said he had not seen 223 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: Eliza eat any of the dumplings, and he immediately suspected arsenic. 224 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: He mentioned that they kept arsenic in the house and 225 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 1: that Eliza would have had access to it. He also 226 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: stated that the last time he recalled seeing the arsenic 227 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: in the office drawer was on March seventh. Or Labar 228 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: Turner also asked Eliza what prejudicial ingredients she had put 229 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: into the dumplings, and she stated that she thought it 230 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: had not been the dumplings, but a pail of milk 231 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: brought in by Sarah Peer that had made them all sick. 232 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: Milk had been used in the sauce, yes, and that 233 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: sauce was not made by Eliza. We'll get to that. 234 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: When called as a witness, Roger Gadsden also gave the 235 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: March seventh eight as the last time that he had 236 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: seen the Arsenic in the office. Gadsden also repeated the 237 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: story about Eliza urging him not to eat the dumplings, 238 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: and that he had eaten what he described as a 239 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: walnut size amount with sauce. He stated quote, in consequence 240 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: of the distress the family were in, I was sent 241 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: off to Missus Turner, the mother. I was very sick 242 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: going and coming back. I thought I should die. He 243 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: also told the court that Eliza had made dumplings for 244 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: the household staff the night before she made them for 245 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: the Turners, and that they had been quite different and 246 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: no one had gotten sick. The Missus Turner, Gadsden was 247 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: mentioning here was Margaret Turner, Roger's mother and Orlabar's wife. 248 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: She stated that immediately she went to the house and 249 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: found everyone Ill, including Eliza, immediately thought it must be 250 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: the dumplings. But she told the court that Eliza told 251 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: her quote, not the dumplings, but the milk. Ma'am. Eliza 252 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: said that Roger Gadsden hadn't had much dumpling at all, 253 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: but quote had licked up three parts of a boat 254 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: of sauce with a bit of bread. That sauce had 255 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: been mixed not by Eliza but by Charlotte Turner. Seems 256 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: like there was a bit of friction between Eliza and Sarah. 257 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: Eliza made clear that Sarah had been the one to 258 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: bring the milk. So after this sauce issue was brought up, 259 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: other members of the household were asked before the judge 260 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: whether they had eaten any of the sauce. Robert Turner 261 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: said that he had not eaten any sauce, but he 262 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: did have dumplings. Sarah Peer, who had not eaten the 263 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: dumplings but had eaten some of the beefsteak pie that 264 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: had a crust that had been made with the very 265 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: same flour, had not gotten sick. One of the pieces 266 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: of evidence introduced into the trial was the family's table 267 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: from the dinner in question. The knives and forks had tarnished. 268 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: They were described as being black or turning black, and 269 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: John Marshall testified that arsenic could cause that, but Marshall 270 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: had also searched for scientific proof. He cut open the 271 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: remaining dumplings and found what he described as white particles throughout. 272 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: He put a portion on a polished coin and then 273 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: set that coin on a knife blade to hold it 274 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: over a candle flame. It smelled of garlic when he 275 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: did this, and left a white residue on the metal 276 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: after burning, both of which Marshall said were signs of arsenic. 277 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: He performed additional tests, burning the white powder that he 278 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: found in the dumplings, and once again found that they 279 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: smelled of garlic and left the white residue. Eliza's barrister, 280 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: Peter Alley, was to be frank kind of a dud. 281 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: He didn't ask many questions of the witnesses or try 282 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: to reframe anything they said with a simple explanation, or 283 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: point out any discrepancies that came up between their arraignment hearing. 284 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: In the trial, Eliza was put on the stand to 285 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: defend herself. She told the judge and jury quote, I'm 286 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: truly innocent of the whole charge. As God is my witness. 287 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: I am innocent. Indeed I am. I liked my place. 288 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: I was very comfortable. As to my master saying I 289 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: did not assist him, I was too ill. I had 290 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: no concern with the drawer at all. When I wanted 291 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: a piece of paper, I always asked for it. Eliza 292 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: defended herself against all of the accusations and claims that 293 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: were made against her, even the claim that she had 294 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: been partly undressed in the room of the apprentices, which 295 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: is what had led to Charlotte's scolding of her several 296 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 1: weeks before the poisonings. Her explanation there was that she 297 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: had needed a light in the night and had gone 298 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: to their room still dressed, and that the boys, as 299 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: she called them, had tried to take liberties with her, 300 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: so she had called for Missus Turner. But by the 301 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: time Charlotte Turner got to the hall, Eliza was back 302 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: in her own room and had started to undress there, 303 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: and Missus Turner made assumptions. Yeah, there are some discrepancies 304 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: in various statements, even that Charlotte Turner gave that sometimes 305 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: she claimed she had seen Eliza in her own room 306 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: and other times she said that she had seen her 307 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: undressed in the apprentices room, so there's some inconsistency. As 308 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: for the day that the fateful dinner was cooked, there was, 309 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: according to Eliza, a period she was out of the 310 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: kitchen because Charlotte Turner had sent her to the butcher. 311 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: That was part of telling her to make a beefsteak pie. 312 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: And Eliza stated that she had seen Thomas King, that 313 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: is the other apprentice that we haven't really talked about 314 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: much yet, leave the kitchen, but he had not answered 315 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: her when she asked why he was there, and he 316 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: just left. The defense then had five character witnesses testify 317 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: to Eliza's good nature, but when one of them stated 318 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: that Eliza had told him just a few days before, 319 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,239 Speaker 1: in March twenty first, that she was quite happy with 320 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: her work and her employers, that testimony was struck down 321 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: by the judge is inadmissible. Similarly, a written statement from 322 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: Eliza's father, William Fenning, was not allowed to be introduced 323 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: to the court. It stated that he had stopped by 324 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: the Turner home on March twenty first, the day of 325 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: the poisonings, to say hello to his daughter, but was 326 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: told by Sarah Peer that Eliza was out on an errand, 327 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: and reality Eliza was there, had already eaten the foul 328 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: dumplings and was sick at the time. Eliza wanted to 329 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: have Thomas King brought to the stand, but the court 330 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: was only willing to produce Roger Gadsden. The trial, the verdict, 331 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: and the sentence all took place on the same day. 332 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 1: When all of the testimony was done and the judge 333 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: began to address the jurors, Eliza's barrister just got up 334 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: and left. He didn't even stick around. The jury deliberated 335 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: for mere moments before returning a guilty verdict, and Eliza 336 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: was sentenced to death. It wasn't until Friday, April fourteenth 337 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: that the sentence was formally issued. That's because the session 338 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: of the court would record all sentences from the week 339 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: on the same day, so that Friday, Eliza and fourteen 340 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: other people who had been tried that week formally received 341 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: their sentences. Eliza waited in Newgate Prison, hoping that her 342 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: verdict could be overturned. When it seemed that no reprieve 343 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: was coming, Eliza wrote to Edward, telling him that she 344 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: was making her peace with God and that arrangements were 345 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: to be made for Edward to visit, but Eliza also 346 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: wrote him that she wanted him to find someone else, 347 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: quote when I am no more. Perhaps having taken her 348 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: words too hastily to heart, Edward was a no show. 349 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: When his May fourth visitation day came, Eliza wrote to 350 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: him again, this time clearly hurt to have been a band. Meanwhile, 351 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: the entire case had become the main focus of all 352 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: of England, it seemed, as her trial was reported on 353 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: the papers. The way the entire thing had been handled 354 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: came under suspicion. Sir John Sylvester, the judge in the case, 355 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: was known to form opinions on defendants and then steer 356 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: the proceedings in the way he chose. The fact that 357 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: the Turners worked in legal circles led people to question 358 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: whether things had been slanted against Eliza from the beginning. 359 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: There were also detractors who believed the testimony of the 360 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: Turners and their apprentice Gadsden, and thought that Eliza was 361 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: a cold blooded killer thwarted only by the work of 362 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: surgeon John Marshall. As for Eliza's own illness, the explanation 363 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: that kind of went around these circles was that she 364 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: must have poisoned herself just a little to try to 365 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: avoid suspicion. We'll talk more about how people debated Elia's 366 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: innocence or guilts, and how pleased for a pre were 367 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: made both by her and on her behalf after we 368 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: hear from the sponsors that keep stuffy miss in history 369 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: class going. Soon reporters were clamoring to meet with Eliza 370 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: so that they could share with readers how innocent or 371 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: guilty she seemed to them, although most really did seem 372 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: to find her to be very unlikely of attempting to 373 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: murder anyone. Pamphlets were written pointing out the various holes 374 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: in the case. Why would a poisoner take the poison herself, 375 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: Why would she not wash the pan that the poison 376 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: had been mixed in, Why would she have opted to 377 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: go to trial confident that it would be the fastest 378 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: way to put the matter behind her, And why was 379 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: any positive testimony about Eliza not admitted in court? Why 380 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: was Thomas King not called similarly? Why not Sergeant Ogilvie, 381 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: who was with the family and Eliza for several hours 382 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: before getting John Marshall involved in an effort to bolster 383 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: an appeals case, a medic named Thomas William Windsborough performed 384 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: his own experiments with arsenic to show that it would 385 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: not blacken knives in the way that had been claimed 386 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: in the court. Wansborough wrote up his results and sent 387 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: them to the Secretary of State, Lord Sidmus. As spring 388 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: stretched into early summer, Eliza wrote to the Secretary of 389 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: State herself, begging him to intervene. She also wrote to 390 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: the High Chancellor of Great Britain, Lord Eldon, similarly requesting 391 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: his help and pointing out inconsistencies in the testimony of 392 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: Charlotte Turner and the huge gap in the record that 393 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: resulted in not calling Thomas King to the stand. She 394 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: wrote to the Turners and asked them to save her life. 395 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: She wrote to the examine Or to thank the press 396 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: for their kindness to her, and to assert her innocence 397 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: publicly one more time. The Turners did visit Eliza in 398 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: prison at Eliza's request. She also told them that she 399 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: wanted Thomas King to come with them, and it seemed 400 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: that they believed she was going to confess, but she 401 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: did the opposite and once again proclaimed her innocence unwavering. 402 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: It kind of seemed like she was hoping that having 403 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: all of them there together might prompt someone to actually confess, 404 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: because she told them that she hoped the real culprit 405 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: would be identified. There was a lot of public support 406 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: for Eliza, and quite a few prominent people tried to 407 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: advocate on her behalf. A banker named Corbin Lloyd went 408 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: to Sir John Sylvester to beg for her execution to 409 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: be held off until additional investigations could be completed. There 410 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,959 Speaker 1: just was not enough evidence to conclusively prove her guilt 411 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: in the eyes of Lloyd and many others, but Sylvester 412 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: was really having none of it. A bookseller named J. M. 413 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: Richardson's similarly worked to get the attention of Lord Sidmouth 414 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: and Sir John Sylvester after a visitor to his home 415 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: told him that a member of the Turner household had 416 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: been seen in a moment of seeming public madness, threatening 417 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: to poison his entire household. That particular piece of information 418 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: went from what seemed like a hazy sort of rumor 419 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: to a very clear picture when a mister Gibson, who 420 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: worked at Corbin and Company, chemist and druggist, went on 421 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: record with details about very unsettling statements made in his 422 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: place of work by Robert Turner. Gibson recounted the following 423 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: quote about the month of September or October last, to 424 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: the best of my recollection, mister Turner Junior called at 425 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: our house, and, appearing in a wild and deranged state. 426 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: I invited him into a back room, where I detained him, 427 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: whilst mister Crockford went to his father's. In this interval, 428 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: mister Turner Junior used the most violent and incoherent expressions, 429 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: such as, my dear Gibson, do for God's sake, get 430 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: me secured and confined. For if I am at liberty, 431 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 1: I shall do some mischief. I shall destroy myself and 432 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: my wife. I must and shall do it. Something from 433 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: above tells me I must do it, and unless I 434 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: am prevented, I shall certainly do it. Gibson also stated 435 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: that he had, after Eliza's arrest, gone to Orlabar Turner 436 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: and asked him not to proceed in trying to have 437 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: Eliza prosecuted. Part of the reason was that he believed 438 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: if she was executed and Robert was allowed to walk 439 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: freely in the world, Robert posed a very great danger, 440 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: but once again there was no shift in their position 441 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: on this matter. Thomas Winsborough appealed directly to the Turners, 442 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: showing them the experiments he had done that called John 443 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: Marshall's scientific evidence. It's a question. Allegedly, the family seemed 444 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: almost on the verge of considering signing a reprieve request, 445 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: but then Marshall and Sylvester, who arrived at the Turner 446 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: home as Winsborough was planning his efforts, dismissed all of it. 447 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: They suggested to the Turners that if they signed any 448 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: document helping Fenning, it would cast doubt on their family. Additionally, 449 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: Sylvester told men who spoke out in support of Eliza 450 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: Fenning they were only doing it because she was young 451 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: and pretty. None of their efforts made a difference. Yeah, 452 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: there's some speculation about how magically John Marshall and Sylvester 453 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: just churned up at the house while someone was refuting 454 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: Marshall's evidence, and their suspicion that someone else in the 455 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: household went and told them that he was there, but 456 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure. The judge reported the pending 457 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: cases to the Prince Regent on July twentieth, with recommendations 458 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: for the carrying out of the sentences. The Prince Regent 459 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: was George the Fourth, who ruled as regent from eighteen 460 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: eleven to eighteen twenty after King George the Third was 461 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: deemed mentally unstable. George the Fourth was crowned as king 462 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty when George the Third died. So this 463 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: step of the judge reporting to the Prince Regent is 464 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: sort of like checking in to see if any of 465 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: the sentenced would be pardoned or given a stay of execution. 466 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: But no such grace was given, and the execution list 467 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: was approved by the Prince Regent. On July twenty sixth, 468 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: eighteen fifteen, just three short months after the whole ordeal began, 469 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: Eliza Fennings stood on the hangman's scaffold. Despite the fact 470 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: that it was a rainy day, A large crowd had 471 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: turned out to watch this horrific spectacle. One of the 472 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: last things Eliza did was whisper into the ear of 473 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: the chaplain who stood next to her, which a number 474 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: of witnesses believed to be a last minute confession. It 475 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: was not. She had turned to the religious leader to 476 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: assert one more time that she was innocent. She had 477 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: chosen a white muslin dress as a symbol of her innocence, 478 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: and according to witness accounts, her last words were I 479 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: am innocent. Eliza was buried on July thirty first at 480 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: George the Murder Church in the churchyard. Her parents had 481 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 1: to pay fourteen shilling sixpence in executioner's fees before their 482 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: daughter's body was released to them for burial. While Eliza 483 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: had been laid out for visitation prior to being interred, 484 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: a number of visitors, seeing how poor her parents were 485 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: and how they had been completely taxed by this whole process, 486 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: gave her father money as they passed through. As Eliza's 487 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: body was carried from her parents house to her final 488 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: resting site, a crowd of thousands is said to have 489 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: formed behind the processional. After Eliza's death, her entire story 490 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: continued to play out in the press, with journalists speculating 491 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: about whether she had or hadn't done it, and there 492 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: were plenty of people who held her case up as 493 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: an example of the problems with Britain's legal system. Writer 494 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: John Watkins became deeply invested in the story and what 495 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: he believed, as many did, was a miscarriage of justice. 496 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: He made the case that there was no way the 497 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: amount of arsenic the doctor had claimed to have found 498 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: in the bowl was plausible. There was only a tiny 499 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: amount of dough residue left in the bowl, but it 500 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: had produced a half teaspoon of arsenic per the doctor's estimation. 501 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: A half teaspoon sounds like a very little amount, but 502 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: just a few grains of arsenic are enough to kill 503 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: a person, So if there had been a half teaspoon 504 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: in the leftover dish residue, Watkins calculated that there would 505 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: have been about eighteen hundred grains of arsenic in the 506 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: dumplings that were consumed. Everyone involved should have been dead 507 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: and would not have been able to recover. No matter 508 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: how much fluid was prescribed. Just a bite of a 509 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: dumpling would have easily killed multiple people. So things just 510 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: did not add up. Watkins asserted that the arsenic had 511 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: to have been added after the dough was made, suggesting 512 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: that someone other than Eliza had sprinkled the arsenic on 513 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: the dough after she had mixed the ingredients. For a 514 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: brief moment in eighteen twenty nine, seemed that the truth 515 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: of what had happened at sixty eight Chancery Lane had 516 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: at last come to light. A pamphlet published that year 517 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: by the firm of Cowie and Strange was titled Circumstantial 518 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: Evidence The Extraordinary Case of Eliza Fenning, who was executed 519 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifteen for attempting to poison the family of 520 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: Erlabar Turner by mixing arsenic in yeast dumplings, with a 521 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: statement of facts since developed tending to prove her innocence 522 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,479 Speaker 1: of the crime. This pamphlet was sold for a penny, 523 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: and in its introduction states quote years passed away without 524 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: there appearing to be any reason to doubt the justice 525 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: of the verdict. But fresh interest has been lately given 526 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: to the subject by a report that has been circulated, 527 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: charging another with the dreadful deed. So the pamphlet goes 528 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: on to state that quote. Within the last few weeks 529 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: a paragraph has appeared in many of the newspapers stating 530 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: that the son of mister Turner had died lately in 531 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: the hospital after confessing that he had mixed the poison 532 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: in the food prepared by Eliza Fenning, and was consequently 533 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: guilty of the offense for which she suffered but it 534 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: also states that no one can verify this information. While 535 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: this story started to appear in other papers as well, 536 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: in June of eighteen twenty nine that Essex Herald printed 537 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: a note that this information was false and that Robert 538 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: Turner was in fact still alive. While Eliza's story is 539 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: one that evidences biases of class and a very broken 540 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: justice system, one of the results is that it actually 541 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: got a lot more people thinking about the criminal justice 542 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: system and about what would eventually be called forensic science. 543 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: In eighteen twenty eight, John Gordon Smith, a former Army surgeon, 544 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: became the first professor of Medical Jurisprudence at the University 545 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: of London. That was the beginning of forensics education in 546 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: the country, and he used Eliza's case in lectures and 547 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: provided demonstrations that showed that so called expert testimony was 548 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: not always correct. The blackened cutlery issue with something Gordon 549 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: Smith was particularly interested in. He used knives soaked in 550 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: different substances as examples for his class. One that he 551 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: had soaked in arsenic for ten hours showed no signs 552 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: of discoloration, but one that he had set in pickled 553 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: walnuts for the same period did indeed turn black. The 554 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: frustrating story of Eliza Femming. I have much less frustrating 555 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: and delightful listener mail oh good. As you may recall, 556 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: on a recent episode, I had mentioned that I had 557 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: run into one of our listeners at my specialty vet, Tabitha, 558 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: and I said, Tabitha resend that because I cannot find it. 559 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if it just went into the ether 560 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: or what, but she did resend it done as an update, 561 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: her kiddie's doing very well, and she also mentions that 562 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: she makes one of the drinks on Criminalia regularly and 563 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: people love it, which makes me very happy in my 564 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: dark little heart. But her initial email reads hello ladies. 565 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: Over the holidays, I was talking on my eighty five 566 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: and a half year old aunt in law and she 567 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: was reminiscing about her childhood cat, Totem, adopted in nineteen 568 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: forty two, whose tail looked like a Totem pole. She 569 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: told me how very many kittens Totem had, all of 570 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 1: which were adopted out to other families. We were contrasting 571 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: this idea with our neighborhood Mama Cat, who has gifted 572 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: the neighborhood and my house with many lovely kittens, but 573 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: we are trying to catch her to retire her kitten 574 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: making days. So far we have only caught and spay, neutered, released, 575 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: or adopted some of her kittens. Then we started wondering 576 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: at what point in the USA people switched from simply 577 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: expecting kittens to spaying and neutering their cats. I feel 578 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: like all my life, from the seventies until now, there 579 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: has been a campaign to spay neuter your pets. Obviously, 580 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: it used to be different when who figured out how 581 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: to spain, neuter or pets safely. I've heard mention of 582 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: horses being a gelding in old novels, but never other 583 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: animals being retired from reproduction in ways other than isolation. 584 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: This seemed like a research topic you might enjoy looking into. 585 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: And then Tabitha shared beautiful pictures of her kiddies who 586 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: are just adorable, and I did get to meet her 587 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: one of her kiddies while we were at the vet together, 588 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: so I'm so glad that he's doing well and all 589 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: of these kiddies are beautiful. One thing I wanted to 590 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: mention I didn't go into researching all of the neutering stuff, 591 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: but I did specifically want to look at because I 592 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: can answer it pretty quickly. Trap neuter release programs or 593 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: you'll sometimes also see them as trap neuter return programs 594 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: or TNVR, which is trap neuter vaccinate programs, which basically, 595 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: for anyone that doesn't know what that is, if you're 596 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: somewhere where there is a population of feral cats, it's 597 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: like cats that are not ever really going to socialize 598 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: to be somebody's pet. A lot of people have started 599 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: these efforts to capture those cats, get them spade or neutered, 600 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: get them vaccinated if possible, and then they release them again. 601 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: And in some places this is a really good like 602 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: rodent control approach. There are lots of companies that will 603 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: do this with animals on their property, etc. There are 604 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: lots of people that just do like grassroots efforts. But 605 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: it's a cool thing, and it actually has not been 606 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: around all that long, so I know there are people 607 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: that will argue about it and don't like these programs. 608 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: I am obviously not one of them, but just step YI. 609 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: This started actually in Great Britain in the nineteen fifties, 610 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: where they realize that if they culled a feral population 611 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: like if you kill the cats that are there that 612 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: you think are a nuisance, or if you just had 613 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: them carted away, other cats just move in. But if 614 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: you fix them, they'll stay in their territory. They have 615 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: population roll and as we said, they'll get rid of 616 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: rodents and other pests. So great Britain did this in 617 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: the fifties, Denmark started doing it in the nineteen seventies, 618 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 1: and then somewhere in the late seventies or early eighties, 619 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: it's estimated, people started trying it here in the US, 620 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: although it really didn't become a big thing in the 621 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: US until the nineteen nineties, and now it is really 622 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: common in a lot of particuliarly a lot of cities 623 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: in the US, but all over. I'm a big fan 624 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: of the t in Our program. Have tried to do 625 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: my best to help some of those out now and again. 626 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: One of my favorite cats in the world is a 627 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: t in Our failure who my dear friend took pity 628 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: on when she was kind of getting mistreated by other cats, 629 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: took her inside. She didn't wanted to be touched by 630 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,919 Speaker 1: anybody until she hit about fourteen, and then she wanted 631 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: to be hugged and petted by every single person she met. 632 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: We don't know what happened there, but she's a diet 633 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: our cat's mother was a TNR. I don't think they 634 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: that was necessarily where they were planning to go with 635 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: her at the shelter, but she was clearly not thriving 636 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: in the shelter and as a result, her kittens were 637 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: not thriving in the shelter, and so she was returned 638 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: back to her feral community. And now you have the 639 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: babies now have so they're very spoiled at love. They're 640 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,280 Speaker 1: very spoiled. Anyway, that was probably a long listener mail segment. 641 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,240 Speaker 1: I feel very strong about trabue release programs. So thanks 642 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:32,919 Speaker 1: for coming along for the ride if you stuck around 643 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: for it. And again, Tabitha, thank you for resending that email. 644 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: If you would like to email us about this or 645 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: something else, you can do so at History Podcast at 646 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com. You can also find us on Instagram, Twitter, 647 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: basically all the all of the interweb socials as missed 648 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: in History. And if you would like to subscribe to 649 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,280 Speaker 1: the podcast and you haven't, I promise it's the easiest 650 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: thing ever. You can just do that on the iHeartRadio app, 651 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Stuff you 652 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 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