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Speaker 1: Oh hey, everybody, episode coming right at you. This is

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Speaker 1: a good one. That's the end of the year, right Phil, Yep,

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Speaker 1: it is. It's the end of the year. It's the

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Speaker 1: end of the year. And so we're gonna go quick

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Speaker 1: right through this one. And you're gonna hear about Game

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Speaker 1: of Thrones. You canna hear about The Bachelor, you canna

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Speaker 1: hear from Cam Haynes and Steve Ronella. You're gonna go

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Speaker 1: to Berkeley with me all in TACs. Best of Volume two.

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Speaker 1: We stay goodbye. Possibly, we don't know. So the Work

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Speaker 1: Sharp announces of Sharp Moments and we'll say hello to

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Speaker 1: another poop story. Yes, you're gonna love it. But before

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Speaker 1: we get to any of that, we have to say

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Speaker 1: thank you to all our sponsors from this year, Yeddie,

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Speaker 1: First Light, Federal Premium, Work Sharp, everybody that put time

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Speaker 1: and energy into our program. We thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: I hope to see you next year. Thank you everybody else.

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Speaker 1: It was a good one, and enjoy Best of Volume

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Speaker 1: two coming at you right now. I guess I grew

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Speaker 1: up on an older road, a pedal to the medals.

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Speaker 1: I always did what I told until I found out

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Speaker 1: that my brand new close the game se can hand

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Speaker 1: from the rich kids next door. And I grew up fast.

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Speaker 1: I guess I grew up me. There are a thousand

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Speaker 1: things inside of my head I wish I ain't seen,

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Speaker 1: and now I just wanted through a real bad dream

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Speaker 1: or being in like I'm coming apart of the scenes.

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Speaker 1: But thank you Jack Daniel seven. Hey, everybody, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the final episode of the twenty nineteen year for the

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Speaker 1: Hunting Collectors. Who Wow, Wow, I'm not gonna kiss you. Phil,

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Speaker 1: Please don't stop looking at me like that. For down

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Speaker 1: the Champagne volume to the best of th a c

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Speaker 1: ald lang zign. Tonight you will sing this to someone,

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Speaker 1: I think, Ben, do we know what old lang sign is?

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Speaker 1: It's crazy that you ask Phil? Okay, because I know

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Speaker 1: this without reading it. Good. That's that's crazy that I know.

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Speaker 1: I know. What? Do you think that old lang sign

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Speaker 1: translates roughly to old lobster sandwich? Perfect? That was it,

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Speaker 1: and then it gets smelly. No, rough it roughly translates

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Speaker 1: to times gone by? Yeah, which is nice. Did you

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Speaker 1: know that Robert Burns, the great eighteenth century Scottish poet,

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Speaker 1: transformed this old song, this old Scottish song for publication.

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Speaker 1: And when he did that, Phil, he turned old lang

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Speaker 1: sign into very popul song around the world. No, I didn't.

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Speaker 1: And I'm incredibly impressed that you just knew that off

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Speaker 1: the top of your head. Yeah. And I just it's

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Speaker 1: something that I've been learning about for years. You did

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Speaker 1: your dissertation about this topic when I was a doctor.

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Speaker 1: I'm a doctor now, yep, since last week I got

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Speaker 1: my doctorate. Uh. This song is first print in se Si.

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Speaker 1: That's a long time ago, Uh for sure. And he

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Speaker 1: of course lent some artistry to an old, old traditional song. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And the next question might have phils. Why is it

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Speaker 1: so significant he took the word to ride out of

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Speaker 1: my Yeah, why why do we sing it? Uh? Well,

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Speaker 1: here's a here's a brief uh story that I read

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Speaker 1: years ago, many years ago about the significance of all things.

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Speaker 1: You know. In World War One, it was a tough

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Speaker 1: time and this the this is pointly illustrated. The power

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Speaker 1: of this song was during the Christmas Truths at the

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Speaker 1: beginning World War One. For a brief moment, the guns

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Speaker 1: fell silent, and troops from both sides left the trenches

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Speaker 1: to swap souvenirs and sing songs. Yeah, this is like

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Speaker 1: that did Was there really a truth during World War Yeah?

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Speaker 1: This could all be. They put down their guns and

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Speaker 1: they passed the bottle around and sang songs. According to

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Speaker 1: a lead a letter from Sir Edward Holtz, okay, he's

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Speaker 1: a Scottish guard, the British and German soldiers joined together

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Speaker 1: to sing Old Lang's Eye during the Truth Powerful fending

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Speaker 1: off wolves as they sang yeah, shooting, just shooting wolves

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Speaker 1: as they sang uh. The next question you have, you

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Speaker 1: have any other questions? Phil? Why do we sing it

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Speaker 1: on New Year's Eve? Is that maybe the question you

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Speaker 1: were thinking of you didn't have, You didn't want, You

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Speaker 1: don't wonder, well, who do we have to thank for that?

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Speaker 1: You might ask? Inine Guy Lombardo his band took the

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Speaker 1: stage age at the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City.

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Speaker 1: I've heard of it, you heard of it, and they

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Speaker 1: actually did that on New Year's Eve, which is a coincidence.

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Speaker 1: I think maybe um it was broadcast on the radio

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Speaker 1: because there's there's no television, and then by CBS NBC

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Speaker 1: on radio at midnight as a transition between these two

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Speaker 1: broadcast CBS NBC the song. They chose to play. Was

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Speaker 1: that that old folk song that we've been talking about,

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Speaker 1: old Lang sign and it stuck and in our culture. Wow. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: From that moment we decided that's what we would saying

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Speaker 1: on the New Year's Eve. It's not really as a

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Speaker 1: as exciting as I thought it would be. Phil. Phil

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Speaker 1: is sleeping, Phil, Phil has gone to sleep. No, I'm

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Speaker 1: just being an asshole. Feel it? Phil is now putting

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Speaker 1: a chap stick. Stay away from me, Phil, God, it

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Speaker 1: gives you all the feels. All right, I hear. We

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Speaker 1: have another best of episode of volume volume to volume two,

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Speaker 1: Happy New Year, Volume two. All right, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the actual show, Volume two. You like Did you like that? Phil? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I love New Year's. Do you ever drink champagne for

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Speaker 1: New Year's Phil? No? Sometimes look at this the Martinelli's

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Speaker 1: sparkling cider for the kiddos. Kiddos um I. I rarely

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Speaker 1: buy shampa. That's why I like living in Montana, because

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Speaker 1: we can celebrate. The ball drops at like ten, and

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Speaker 1: then you go to bed and at midnight you're soundly sleeping.

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Speaker 1: It's nice in the bed with your wife. Not your wife,

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Speaker 1: my wife. So what stay away from my wife? Don't

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Speaker 1: stay away from her. Um. So yeah, Happy New Year

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Speaker 1: to everybody out there, thanks for spending with us, and

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Speaker 1: we got volume two coming to you straight from Bosman, Montana.

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Speaker 1: I hope all those facts stuck in your head because

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Speaker 1: I've known them for quite some time. Um. It's that

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Speaker 1: in no way that I just google it and read

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Speaker 1: to you from there. It is. Every episode of th

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Speaker 1: HC has an email notification from my laptop and you're now.

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Speaker 1: I'll meet it for everybody. So if you want to

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Speaker 1: go back and listen to the best of th HC,

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Speaker 1: try to find all the moments or my emails started.

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Speaker 1: Anyone wants to put together a montage of all these,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do it. If you do, we'll send

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Speaker 1: you all kinds of free stuff. If anybody out there

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Speaker 1: can send us a compilation of the email notification dings

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Speaker 1: from all episodes. People shower you with gifts. I will

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Speaker 1: shower you with all the gifts that I have to

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Speaker 1: give this holiday season. But this is volume two, and

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Speaker 1: before we get to all the cool stuff that's in

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Speaker 1: volume two, we have to wind down not so sharp moments.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a sad, it's a little sad it's

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Speaker 1: the end of an era. It's the end of an

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Speaker 1: era on THHC. Now, let me just say this, Like

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Speaker 1: every good idea, it could be resurrected at any time.

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Speaker 1: It can come back at any time. So why we'll

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Speaker 1: say goodbye to it briefly now? Uh, it could come back,

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Speaker 1: and we hope it comes back because we sure do

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Speaker 1: like work Sharp, and we thank them for all they've

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Speaker 1: done with this podcast and being a part of your

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Speaker 1: listening experience out there and listener Land, and so we're

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Speaker 1: gonna try. There's no way really to close this out, Phil,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's just no there's no story that can

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Speaker 1: encapsulate all the dumb things that you have done out there,

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Speaker 1: the audience I'm talking to now too, and Phil Um

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Speaker 1: and me, I've done a lot of dumb stuff this year,

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Speaker 1: Like some of the dumbest things I've ever done happened.

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Speaker 1: It's been a real stinker, Um. But we're gonna try, So, Phil,

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Speaker 1: play the jingle not so sharp moment so you don't

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Speaker 1: have me. Okay, this is kind of an international not

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Speaker 1: a Sharp moment because Henrik Henrik is originally from Finland

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Speaker 1: and he wrote he put it in his name. H

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Speaker 1: E n R I K. And then he just said

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Speaker 1: pronounced like it's spelled. Well, that doesn't help me at all. Henri. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's I think that's what he means, Henrik, Henri. If

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Speaker 1: he would have if it would have been like hen

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Speaker 1: r E K when Henri Henric. So we also have

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Speaker 1: to say say goodbye to me mispronouncing your names during

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Speaker 1: this segment. All right, here we go from Henrik Henri

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Speaker 1: hi beginner adult hunter. Here, Oh, welcome to the club.

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Speaker 1: He started last year bow hunting because as a chef,

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Speaker 1: I started to feel like I wanted better and more

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Speaker 1: sustainable meat to feed my family. And after watching lots

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Speaker 1: of meat eater wired to hunt, I would just put

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Speaker 1: he didn't put this, but I'll put. And listening to

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Speaker 1: the hunting collective and buying equipment I could afford, spending

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Speaker 1: lots of time practicing archery, I felt I was ready

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Speaker 1: to get on with my newfound hobby of trying to

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Speaker 1: get some delicious, dear meat. Being a city boy, I

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Speaker 1: lived in work mostly in big cities like Stockholm, Sweden,

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Speaker 1: and then moved to Philadelphia to be with my American

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Speaker 1: wife and start a life closer to her family and

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Speaker 1: start one of our own. I had not been in

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Speaker 1: a rural setting for the last twenty years since a

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Speaker 1: kid growing up in the archipelago near Finland. Fast forward,

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Speaker 1: my wife took a job in Charlottesville, Virginia. We really

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Speaker 1: relocated our family there. I thought, awesome, lots of public land,

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Speaker 1: more tags, I'm gonna be hunting until I shipped camouflage,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to be eating year meet every day.

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Speaker 1: So a couple of weeks ago, I got out early

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Speaker 1: from work. It was beautiful weather outside, truly a wonderful,

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Speaker 1: wonderful day. I drove to a spot I had been

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Speaker 1: looking up on Onyx maps of public land, a place

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Speaker 1: I wanted to try. As I got there, no cars

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Speaker 1: in the parking lot. It was quiet and peaceful, and

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Speaker 1: I thought to myself, this is the day I kill

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Speaker 1: a deer. After speaking a big eight on my way in,

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Speaker 1: I was super stoked to have seen a dear mid

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Speaker 1: gun season that was that big. After it started getting darker,

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Speaker 1: I decided it's not going to happen today, so I

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Speaker 1: started making my way back to the car. I noticed

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Speaker 1: that people leave trash in the woods. I'll usually pick

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Speaker 1: it up and throw it out When I get home.

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Speaker 1: Pretty common philms. He seems like a pretty nice fella

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Speaker 1: that don't want anything bad to happen to him, that's

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Speaker 1: for sure. As I get to the parking lot, I

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Speaker 1: see some tissue paper spread out like a trail, and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, why does one not just blow their nose

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Speaker 1: and not put in their pocket? Why would you drop

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Speaker 1: that tissue paper on the ground. As I get closer

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Speaker 1: to the paper, I noticed there are brown spots on

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Speaker 1: that paper. And just then, just in that moment, I

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Speaker 1: feel something squishy under my boot. It's probably just like

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Speaker 1: a mushroom. What do you think it is? Something? My

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Speaker 1: brain put two and two together and I realized I

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Speaker 1: successfully tracked and identified human dropping. Oh no, yep, stepped

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Speaker 1: and ship. After throwing away my boots in a plastic

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Speaker 1: bag and driving home, my brain started to sing the

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Speaker 1: Not So Sharp Moment song and I started laughing at

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Speaker 1: this shitty hunt. Yes, the end play the jingle Phil,

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Speaker 1: not so sharp Moment you don't have? All right, that's

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Speaker 1: a pretty good way to end it. Yeah, even though

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Speaker 1: we talked about the last episode, you specifically asked people

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Speaker 1: to not send anymore. I guess I guess you. You

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Speaker 1: said shark specifically. Yeah, this is already this is a

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Speaker 1: little different, a little different. I've already told people that

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Speaker 1: have a child's mind and anything like any nudity or

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Speaker 1: pp you poopoo. Yes, I find it be it makes

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Speaker 1: me giggle and inside, and so I like to put

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Speaker 1: it on the show. And this is the only place

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Speaker 1: I have power in my life. So like so like

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Speaker 1: hansl and Gretel following a trail of candy a chair

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Speaker 1: into a witch's house. Yeah, Henrick followed a trail of

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Speaker 1: toilet paper and they had increasingly brown, bigger brown spots,

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Speaker 1: followed it right into uh so, congratulations, Henric. Hopefully we

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Speaker 1: can't send you new boots, but we can said you

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Speaker 1: a work sharp field sharpener thanks to our friends at

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Speaker 1: work Sharp and we'll hopefully sending a lot more of

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Speaker 1: these out in the future. Um so we'll just put

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Speaker 1: a little bow on that. We'll put a little bow in,

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Speaker 1: put a little bow on not so sharp moments. Thankful

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Speaker 1: for all of your participation. Now, Phil, volume two of

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Speaker 1: Best Off. I hope you guys like last week's best stuff.

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Speaker 1: I enjoyed it. This week we're gonna get into some

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Speaker 1: more contemporary THHC moments moments that have happened a little

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Speaker 1: more recently the last couple of months of the year.

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Speaker 1: But I still love them. Um, they're all I think

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Speaker 1: they're all. Yeah, they're all. So you should be familiar

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Speaker 1: with all these phil Oh, this was nervous. This was

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Speaker 1: b P. Yeah, this was BP. Like these episodes they're

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Speaker 1: still are some of them are still be Stephen Ronella

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Speaker 1: talking about games, that's still that's Jes talking about that. THAT'SP.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you've been around for years. Yeah, when

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Speaker 1: do you start working here? June June mid June. Wow, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so long ago you were but a but a babe

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Speaker 1: when you walked in the door. Someone says, still, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is prior to Skimpy Mickweek's staff. Yeah, Mango, Hey,

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Speaker 1: did you see there was a news story where police

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Speaker 1: dog named Mango, just like rip the ship out of

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Speaker 1: a child or something. No, I didn't see that. No, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that seems yeah, that seems like an accurate way retelling

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Speaker 1: of it. So yeah, look that up. Okay, rip the

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Speaker 1: ship out of a child something I'll google. Maybe it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a child, like, it's something like that. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was the TC news minute, do a little sound

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Speaker 1: effect TC news minute. That was it, So go look

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Speaker 1: that up. All right, We're gonna get to the best

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Speaker 1: of TC volume two and now that there's moments. Volume

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Speaker 1: one was a little serious. It was kind of I

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Speaker 1: was trying to be poignant. Hopefully I achieved it. Put

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Speaker 1: it up, And in volume two, we're just going to

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Speaker 1: kind of move through some the moments that I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the most. We're gonna start with maybe the quintessential THHC

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Speaker 1: moment explaining Game of Thrones to Steve or No. I

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Speaker 1: have a couple of emails here. That's the one most

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Speaker 1: emailed in moment that people have requested. And I think

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Speaker 1: as we go into the new year, Phil, it's important

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Speaker 1: to understand just the differences we have culturally, maybe physically,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Some people are bigger than others, some

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Speaker 1: people are smaller than others. Yes, some people like episodic dramas,

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Speaker 1: some people don't. Some people like fantasies. You love a

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Speaker 1: nice elf or some ship that has a sword. We

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Speaker 1: love a good elf, love a good troll. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: a good like a laser gun. Laser guns, top notch,

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Speaker 1: top top tier entertainment. There you like it all. I

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Speaker 1: I don't. I can't say I don't enjoy a nice

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Speaker 1: superhero from time to time. But you know who doesn't,

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Speaker 1: Steve yep doesn't like it. Uh. And so if you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard it, you're about to hear any Racer are

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Speaker 1: VP of production here, a big time Game of Thrones

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Speaker 1: fan and myself trying to explain the ins and outs

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Speaker 1: of the show Game of Thrones to Steve Ernellan. And

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Speaker 1: if you've ever tried this is right around when the

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Speaker 1: season was was last season was ending earlier this year.

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Speaker 1: If you ever tried to explain something like that that

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Speaker 1: someone who's never is not aware of any part of it,

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Speaker 1: it's impossible and you end up sounding like a weirdo.

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Speaker 1: And so I won't. I won't go any further into it.

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Speaker 1: That's what happens here, and hilarity ensues, at least in

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Speaker 1: my opinion, So enjoy a little. Steve gave it her.

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Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an older row. I'm

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Speaker 1: joined by one Stephen Ronnella, which is in the future. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's in the future. Let's be clear, we're not recording

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Speaker 1: it as you're listening to it. That's not how it works.

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Speaker 1: We had I had some someone right in and asked

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Speaker 1: me that are you recording it live? Like no, I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying the date that's going to get out. We're

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Speaker 1: here in the uh Meat Eater offices and Boson Montana,

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Speaker 1: and um, we're gonna run a sneak attack on Steve

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Speaker 1: real quick here. Uh. We're also joined by Annie Razor

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Speaker 1: Racer like racer, Yeah, like car racer. Is this your

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Speaker 1: any is? This is your the VP of production here?

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Speaker 1: You're behind the scenes a lot. Uh like films like

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Speaker 1: Stars in the Sky and other than the Meat Eater

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes, you're behind the scenes. This is your

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Speaker 1: Is it your first foray into into actually being out front? Um,

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Speaker 1: I've been on one other podcast, but uh the other

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Speaker 1: Meat Eaters before and um some maybe some cameos and

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Speaker 1: some digital content. Yeah, well we're you're here as an expert.

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Speaker 1: You were a child actor. Uh yeah, what child acting?

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Speaker 1: Oh tell us about that before we get into some

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Speaker 1: commercials and things like what commercials, car commercials? What kind

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Speaker 1: of car? You're driving a car? Yeah? I was driving

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Speaker 1: the car no just uh yeah, I don't know Toyota,

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Speaker 1: those are those are car companies? Um, you're here because

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Speaker 1: you're an expert on something, and you're the office expert,

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Speaker 1: I believe on on a show called Game of Thrones.

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Speaker 1: Game of Thrones, it's probably the best television program ever

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Speaker 1: to air ever. Ever. I know this is a hunting podcast,

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Speaker 1: but here's me not giving a ship, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to have a segment what we call Game of Thrones

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Speaker 1: recap and Steve, if you ever you're aware of what

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Speaker 1: the Game of Thrones is, certainly, certainly, but you've never watched,

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Speaker 1: never watched. No desire is that on principle, it's because

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Speaker 1: I don't. I watched, and I watched, and I watch

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Speaker 1: a lot of movies. I don't like serial I don't

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Speaker 1: like I don't like any serial drama, any serial drama,

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Speaker 1: because it cuts into my ability to watch the number

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Speaker 1: of movies that I want and need to watch, because

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Speaker 1: once you get into a serial drama, it takes up

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Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours. And I'm very deliberate about

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Speaker 1: how I spend all of my time. I do not

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Speaker 1: waste time. I don't vege out. And so for me

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Speaker 1: to commit to watching dozens of hours of a single

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Speaker 1: thing in that time, I could have taken in some

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Speaker 1: succinct things, some substinct, succinct, free standing pieces of art

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Um and and and and and I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna like go give some individual that much of my attention,

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Speaker 1: is it. It's so it's not that it's dragons and

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Speaker 1: sorcery and things of that nature. Definitely not like that.

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Speaker 1: That's not. Yeah, I'm not I'm not seduced by that.

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Speaker 1: I'm not like, Oh, if it's about zombies, I like it,

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Speaker 1: or if it's about dragons, I like it. Like, no,

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Speaker 1: I would tend to count I would that would count

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Speaker 1: that as a mark against it. But in and of itself, no,

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Speaker 1: that wouldn't prevent me from watching something we're hoping to

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Speaker 1: seduce you in the Game of Thrones at this point.

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Speaker 1: Ok Yeah, like what if it had zombies and dragons,

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Speaker 1: then I would then I would actually not watch it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Well it's a good it's a good way to start

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Speaker 1: this segment and to know that Steve, I'll never watch

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Speaker 1: a game with us because it is what's at eight seasons?

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Speaker 1: Any Yeah, this is the eighth season. Do you know

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying about? Like my like I don't like

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Speaker 1: to do mindless activities. Yeah, this is roughly ten hours

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Speaker 1: times eight. This is almost it'll be almost a hundred

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Speaker 1: hours of television serial dramas. You can smell them trying

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Speaker 1: to stretch it out. You can smell them adding new

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Speaker 1: characters and smell them keeping it going, and that, to

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Speaker 1: me is very irritating. I feel like you might be

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Speaker 1: surprised if you watch this show. It's I just rewatched

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Speaker 1: all of the hundred hours in the last days and

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Speaker 1: if you know what you know now and you watch

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Speaker 1: rewatch the beginning, it's everything is intentional. From the first season.

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Speaker 1: They're probably it's probably not, but they're probably good at

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Speaker 1: making it seem like that, which is nice. I appreciate

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Speaker 1: that sixteen point five million people tuned into the well,

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Speaker 1: seventeen point four million people turned into the episode to

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Speaker 1: this last episode of game Game of Thrones. That's good

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Speaker 1: for TV show. That's a good one. Yeah, it's millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars. They spent millions, probably billion dollars they spent

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Speaker 1: on the production of these dudes. I bet they spent

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Speaker 1: like ten million dollars on the new intro. Did you

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Speaker 1: notice that the new intro was was was always called dope.

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Speaker 1: That's what word I would use where's this headed? Uh,

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Speaker 1: mostly just because I see like Dragon aggravated. That's really

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Speaker 1: what I wanted to get to. I just don't know,

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Speaker 1: like I don't know, like, uh, go on, We're gonna

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Speaker 1: go on now. As a hunting podcast, we're not probably

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Speaker 1: not supposed to talk about Game of Thrones, but I

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Speaker 1: love the show and it's my podcast. That's what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna do. And Annie's here as the expert because she

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Speaker 1: just got finished watching how many hours eighty hours over

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Speaker 1: the last forty five days. She's been inundated with Game

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Speaker 1: of Thrones content over the last months or so, and

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Speaker 1: so how many hours have you spent watching TV at night?

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Speaker 1: I mean I go home and I like turn on

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Speaker 1: like do some stuff, like do more work, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I've seen all of them already, So I'm just like

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Speaker 1: catching up. Are you the kind of person who leaves

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Speaker 1: the TV on in their house just to have it on?

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Speaker 1: I'm just just like trying to catch up, Like is

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Speaker 1: there anything I missed here? Yeah, the subtleties of this one,

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Speaker 1: and there were things now and set us up where

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Speaker 1: we are right now in the series. We're entering the

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Speaker 1: final season Throne, which I'm very excited about. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it's the final season. Everyone is still basically at war

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Speaker 1: for the Iron Throne, and meanwhile the White Walkers are ascending. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they're like snow zombies and they yea anyway, UM

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Speaker 1: don't know, Steve needs to know this stuff there. I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how detailed I can get here. The

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Speaker 1: easiest way to describe it as, yeah, there's snow zombies.

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Speaker 1: But if you want me to tell you they've become one, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you get like bit or like stabbed by one, or

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Speaker 1: you have a little transformation and you're like the open

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Speaker 1: your eyes. Yeah, your eyes are blue. So they did

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Speaker 1: a little twist down the zombie thing, like this infectious problem.

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Speaker 1: And the zombies live north of the Wall, which is

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Speaker 1: a giant ice wall that was constructed by the humans

401
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Speaker 1: to keep out the zombies. Built it out ice. They

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Speaker 1: took hoses and turned it on there until they froze.

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Speaker 1: There's also some magic. It's a magical wall. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a bit of there's some magic in the wall at

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Speaker 1: the wall. How they build the wall, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Brand the builder built. I don't think guys just melt

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Speaker 1: a hole through it. Well, that's actually what happened. So

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Speaker 1: what happened is change now the ice. This is the

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Speaker 1: most entertaining that anythody has ever been. The The the

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Speaker 1: de Naia stargarian who is the Dragon Queen came came

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Speaker 1: over from the other side of the world to fight

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Speaker 1: basically the Chines in the Middle East or Africa most

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Speaker 1: of the series, and then she comes over to like

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Speaker 1: Europe and she she little on fire in a in

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Speaker 1: a funeral fire, and when the fire like an accident

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Speaker 1: on purpose purpose, and when the fire burns out, she's

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Speaker 1: left with She's completely nude, but she has baby dragons

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Speaker 1: because in the fire were dragon eggs, so she has

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Speaker 1: these baby dragons, which were the only three dragons that

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Speaker 1: exists on on in West funeral Yep gets lit on fire,

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Speaker 1: her husband dies off, and then there she's standing with

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Speaker 1: three dragons they hatched in the fire, naked. So these

423
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: are like ponderosa pine where they need to burn to

424
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: totally to incubate, but she's they need to burn in

425
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: order to become viable. Yeah, so she becomes she gets

426
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: very powerful and builds these armies to go and take

427
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: back the throne which is in West ROAs, which is

428
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: where she's from. She was driven out of West Ros

429
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: into excellent. She's bad or good, She's she's we don't know,

430
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: it's questionable. She's mostly but she shows some signs of

431
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: maybe not skipping ahead, Like seventy hours, SI had seventy

432
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: hours of content. You get to the point where she

433
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: her and John Snow, who was a bastard of winter

434
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: Fowl when we found out in this last episode, using

435
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: bastard as in like he sired a child. He yes,

436
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: any children are illegitimate in this world. They are like

437
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: if you're not like a child born to two people

438
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: that were married, you're considered a bastard and you're given

439
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: a different name. Kind of an antiquated idea. So like

440
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: he was how Stark, but since his he lived his

441
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: whole life thinking he was a bastard. He wasn't John Stark,

442
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 1: he was John Snow. Snow is like the name they

443
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: use for Harry Potter. No, that's dumb, No, that's dumb.

444
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: This is what we're talking about, Harry step off for Nella.

445
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: This is the greatest show. Someone told me there was

446
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: like a fire and some dragon eggs came out of

447
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: Harry Potter. That's true, that's true. But I don't know

448
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: anything about Harry Potter like all that stuff. Yeah, I

449
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: read one of my kids. Sounds exactly like exactly what

450
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: you're talking about. All right, So John Snow he comes

451
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: in as the King of the North. Now because you

452
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: like him, you'd like him. You're kind of guy, he'd

453
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: be your favorite character. He gets. He gets he got

454
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: stabbed in the heart by his his nights wats brothers,

455
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: but was brought back to life by a red priestess.

456
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: She's basically a witch. She brings him back to life

457
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: and by cutting his hair. She cuts his hair and

458
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: then she cuts his hair and then trims his beard

459
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: and then she like it goes like this on his chest,

460
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: right in the heart. It was not good and he

461
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: was dead and she brought him back to life. It

462
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: comes back to life. He meets the Dragon Queen. They

463
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,360
Speaker 1: get together. They fall in love. They need he needs

464
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: to prove to her love. Yeah, they fall in love

465
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: kind of. They're still working on the love thing. He

466
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: starts getting a crush on her, develops into love. Yeah,

467
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: it's quick. It's like like magical people two episodes. He's

468
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: more of a she's a little magical he's more just

469
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: magic was applied to him. Yeah, more more of a deal.

470
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: They get together. He needs to prove to her that

471
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: the ice zombies exist because she doesn't believe him. So

472
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: they have to fly north of the wall just check

473
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: it out. He goes, want to drag it. He gets

474
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: he gets up there with some other dudes. They're trying

475
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 1: to capture one of these zombies to bring it back

476
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: to show him that it exists. And that's how he's

477
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: got to do it. Yeah, it was very I didn't

478
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: agree with This doesn't sound well. Yeah, yeah, no, they

479
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: had to bring it back to Searcy. Yeah, it's like

480
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: in the old days when they would come from Europe

481
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: and bring Native Americans back to show off. Right, they

482
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: had to like go up there and get this thing,

483
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: bring it back and be like this exists because everybody's

484
00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: out of war for the throne. They got to convince.

485
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: But he's like, hey, you know up north, Yeah, let's

486
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: not do the war anymore for a while, Like who

487
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: cares about this iron throw And they're like bullshit, and

488
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: he's like, no, I'm gonna fly my dragon up yes,

489
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: because you know we have dragons like that, you believe,

490
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: But you don't believe that there's a guy out there.

491
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: So he flies up to kidnap a snow zombie and

492
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: bringing back and be like I told you, Yeah, here's

493
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: one right here. And there's like a hundred thousands these

494
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: snow zombies all marching towards the ice wall. And so

495
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: why is the ice ball there if they don't believe

496
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: in the snow zombies. Well, they believe it was a

497
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: legend that is no longer true. It's been so long

498
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: since they built the wall that that people kind of

499
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: like forgot. Okay, yeah, so John snow out of blocks

500
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: of ice. Yeah, yeah, big ones. It's a big walls

501
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: kind of welded together with like welded it with water. Sure. Yeah,

502
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: I think it was like kind of how you would

503
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 1: build a snowman. They just kind of kept very cold climate.

504
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: Cold climate. It's cold. Winners last for decades forever. Winter

505
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: is coming coming. I mean it's here now. Um Am

506
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: I getting this good? So I don't know Steve's retaining

507
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: any It's easy. I'm following it, very easy to get it.

508
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: And then so Johnstows is going to find he's trying

509
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: to get that white walker to bring back to prove

510
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: to everyone that did exist. They get stuck amongst hundreds

511
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: of thousands of them, and then they send a pigeon

512
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: a raven, a raven. They put a note on a

513
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: raven and they get it back to Um the Dragon Queen,

514
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: who reads the note and says, holy shit, I've got

515
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: to get up there and save john snow because they're

516
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: you know, they've been they haven't gotten it on. But

517
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: she's skeptical about the existence. So how does this if

518
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: how does this prove? Like? She still hasn't seen one.

519
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: So the fact that someone says, hey, I'm stuck in

520
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of them, she would say, but they don't exist.

521
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: She kind of believes it. At this point, he didn't

522
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: even need to bring it back. Him telling her that

523
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: they exist than enough for her. So she's like, I

524
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: don't believe. You have to go get one. He goes

525
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: to get one, and then he sends a raven with

526
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,719
Speaker 1: a note saying I'm sorry, I'm not able to bring

527
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: one back because I'm stuck with them, at which point

528
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: she now believes in them and is going to rescue.

529
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: That's this We might have told him this round. Another

530
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: woman who we haven't talked about introduced. Her name is

531
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: Cercy and she is the worst and she is currently

532
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: the queen in King's Landing, which is like their capital.

533
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: Her both her sons were kings and they both died

534
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: and now she's just like taken over and she has

535
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: no kids left. Anyway, she doesn't believe she's the one

536
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: that's refusing to like band together and like go fight

537
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: this enemy from the north. She's like, I don't believe

538
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: you guys, you're all crazy, and they're like, the only

539
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: way she's gonna believe us is if we bring one

540
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: to her and show her she's the actual queen. She's

541
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: the one wants to see the carcass. So then John

542
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: goes up to get it, and then while he's up there,

543
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: they're like, oh crap, we're getting surrounded by these things.

544
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: This dude Gendre runs back to the wall, the ice Wall,

545
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: to where the ravens are, and they send a raven

546
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: to the Dragon Queen who's down south still and it

547
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: says like basically send help. She gets on her dragon

548
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: to go rescue them, and three dragons, all three dragons

549
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: go together to rescue John Snow and his crew of

550
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: people that were trying to get the White walker There's

551
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: another character called the Night King who was the leader

552
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 1: of the White Walkers. He's like used to be a man.

553
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: They stabbed him in the heart with dragon glass. Then

554
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: he became a zombie. Um. He has a spear and

555
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: throws this ice spear at a dragon, kills the dragon,

556
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: and then he has powers to bring the dragon back

557
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: to life, so becomes an ice dragon. He then gets

558
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: on the dragon, flies it to the wall and uses

559
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: blue fire to to bring down the wall. Like the

560
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: dragon breathes it out, breathes out the blue fire got it,

561
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: and everybody down. The wall comes crashing down. Then everyone

562
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: goes down down, and then all of the little gap

563
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: it's a gap, it's a big gap. It's a gap

564
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: like hundreds thousands of people. Then not people, there's zombies.

565
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: They walk through it and seen the World War Z

566
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: or whatever that was called. Yeah, like when they when

567
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: they break the Wall of Jericho or whatever, the wall

568
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: surrounding that wall of Jericho, but the wall surrounding the zombies.

569
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: They kind of stole that from the zombies are trying

570
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: to get through the wall that surrounds Israel. Similar, there's

571
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: a lot of similar They draw yeah, they they probably

572
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: stole some stuff like that. They just marched through it.

573
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: They also have a slow also have a zombie giant

574
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: that's in there too, Goliath. They stole that from the

575
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: Old Testament, mag the Mighty and Um. So that's what's

576
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: happening right now. And um what do you think of

577
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: this last episode there? Annie, Um, I feel like it

578
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: was a little tame. It was setting the groundwork for

579
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: all the the stuff we're in the final season, so

580
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot of It was a lot of reunions.

581
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: It was like fifty minutes of people because everyone's been

582
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: all over the place, which I think is important for

583
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Um. But I'm exciting now they're

584
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: all really like they're reunited, the team coming back together.

585
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: They still left from a team, but there's there's fantastic

586
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 1: there's one. There's like a dwarf who used to be

587
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: married to the lady of winter Fell. They were forced

588
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: to be married by the door's father, so they got

589
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: back together. There was a magical face changing girl who

590
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: used to live at winter Fell. She got reunited with

591
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: the hound who had her as a captive for a

592
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: long time. Um, I didn't get what I needed out

593
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: of that unity. They needed to hug it out some

594
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: real bull um. So yeah, we're gonna continue this segment.

595
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: Steve's probably gonna come back for it. Look, I learned

596
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: two kinds of people in this world, me and Ben

597
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: and you the kind of people. I think you can

598
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: lump everybody into two categories, two kinds of people in

599
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: the world from what you guys are telling me. Like,

600
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: if I was gonna put two kinds of not two

601
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: guys people with two kinds of people who likes like

602
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: like film and television, I think there's the David Lynch

603
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: people in the in the Dragon people. I'm a David

604
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: Lynch guy. See, I would consider myself sounds entirely incompatible

605
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: with a mind. I think a mind that appreciates David Lynch.

606
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,720
Speaker 1: This sounds like incompatible materials. Talking about in intellectual cinema

607
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: and more fantasy based less intellectual. I would say that

608
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones has has has done for fantasies what

609
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: no other fantasy has done. It's like made a lot

610
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: of people that don't like this kind of stuff interested

611
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: in because of the character building in the writing. Yeah,

612
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: Like I'm not in that into fantasy. It's not either.

613
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: I don't. I've never seen more of the Rings. Hate it,

614
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: hate it, Harry Potter, the books or the movie. I

615
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: took a class in high school that all we do

616
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: is read Lord of the Rings and we looked at

617
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: it the lens of World War two in the nazis.

618
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: That sounds interesting. It's really unbelievable and it was heart

619
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: wrenching to see some of the films that came out.

620
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: The films were real bad, and so yeah, I'm into it.

621
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: I would not say it's my genre. It's like the

622
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 1: only thing that I watch. It's definitely not. There's nothing

623
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: hunting related, but it's something they do did a little

624
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: bit of hunting. It's a big part of my life

625
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: right now or not Lord of the Rings, but big

626
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: part of my life. You know. I'm glad you guys

627
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: are I'm glad you guys have found something you enjoy.

628
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: But I mean, no, no, I used to be honestly

629
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: as you're describing, and it sounds really silly. I accept

630
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: that there's so much more complexity to it that it's

631
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: probably not silly, but it sounds silly. Yeah, I can

632
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 1: see that les and dragons and whatnot, and yeah, having

633
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: a fire and getting the eggs out of it, the

634
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 1: queen and flying in a dragon. The rest that part

635
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: is a little much for everybody. Well, but then this

636
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: last episode, John Snow actually flew on a dragon with

637
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: you remember the scene in Tombstone. You know a guy

638
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: named John Snow? You do, Yeah, he lives here in town.

639
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: That's what I thought I got messing with. Yeah, we're

640
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: always whenever we hear, whenever we like. But so you

641
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: remember the scene in Tombstone where Wider rides with his

642
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: lady uh interest. They ride horses together and they're like

643
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: off into the distance and their horses are kind of

644
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: in heat and playing with each other. It's like a

645
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: nice Hollywood trope of like we're in love or we

646
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: shouldn't be that this happened. This happened in the last

647
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 1: episode with John Snow and the Nares start gearing the

648
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: dragon Queen. They rode dragons together and the dragons were

649
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: playfully like it was a lot too much, and then

650
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: they and then they landed in like a like a

651
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: ice waterfall scenario, and then they kissed. It was the worst,

652
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: And then they panned to the dragon. The dragon was

653
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: like the dragons like looking at the John's it was

654
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: the dragon was kind of getting off on looking at

655
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: the drag. The dragon was like flapping his wings and

656
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: it was like I think I read online somewhere someone

657
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: said it was like I saw a meme where it

658
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: was that scene and it said like when she kisses

659
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: you in front of her dad. Yeah, that's like what

660
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 1: it was like like that, but it was very terrible

661
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,959
Speaker 1: that it was one of the worst scenes. You feel.

662
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: It was like made me crch. It was bad. It

663
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: was bad. It was kind of like if she fell off,

664
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: I wouldn't care. Yeah, I was hoping that the ice

665
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: hobbies were just coming get him right there. I was like,

666
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: aren't they getting close to them? Now? They just keep

667
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: going north. They're flying around and dragons. There's been great.

668
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: Uh No, I'm glad. I really had no idea what

669
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: it's about. So this is a great Okay, I can

670
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: talk about it intelligently though. All right, any thank you

671
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: for your service. Welcome podcast back to our normal schedule program.

672
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming. Hopefully right now you need to come,

673
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: you're to stay, but thanks for your expertise. Thanks for

674
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 1: your expertise. Well, when we get back to the regular

675
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: scheduled program. Really because I'm glad because people bring it up.

676
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: I'll be like, yeah, I don't know about that. I

677
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: like the part where he throws the icicle at the

678
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: dragon kissing part. I like it too. If you want

679
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: to come over Sunday, like sometimes I thought I'd be gone,

680
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: we'll be gone. There's a thing where the people in

681
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: Flea Bottom, which is like the very poor area, they

682
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: make bowls of brown, which is like what the poor

683
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: people eat there, and then the King's landing. You're gonna

684
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 1: make it. We're gonna make bowls of brown this Sunday. Dude,

685
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: this is exactly you guys aren't really this is a

686
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: Harry Potter thing too. People make the food to eat

687
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: on Harry Potter. Yeah, and watch Harry Potter. Yeah. I

688
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: mean it's not like specific to just one like enter

689
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: like I think it happens a lot of times, so

690
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: into it that I would dress up, like I'll be

691
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: doing a little thing called hunting on Sunday. What do

692
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: you do Sunday when it gets dark? You're gonna come

693
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: over a little called I made a poll for the

694
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: whole office, which only like and people participated in. There's

695
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: twenty of us. That's pretty good. And it's like who

696
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: it's everyone that's still left remaining their name obviously if

697
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: they live, if they die, If they die, who killed them?

698
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 1: And if they turn into a white walker? And there's

699
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: like three different questions at the bottom. Did you get

700
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 1: my form? Yes? And then right here's made me really

701
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: upset by the way, because you said all the Starks

702
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: die but brand barf and then you said something else.

703
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: I was like, what, I there's a strategy there. I

704
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: don't want to let it out right. It was deeply

705
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 1: upsetting to me. I think I'm gonna win. I guess

706
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: I grew up on an older row. All right, cool, cool, yeah, yeah, alright.

707
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: This shows we're only on volume two, Ben and it's

708
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: already it's already completely I'm gonna say, aft, you don't

709
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: know what my life is thanks to Steve, you know,

710
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: for all the things uh Mary Mary Christmas to him

711
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: and his family. Christmas already passed. I forgot to tell him, um.

712
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: And now we're gonna move on to another another time.

713
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: This was you know, Phil, you weren't here for this either,

714
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 1: but I wish you were. This is bp um Cam Haynes.

715
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: But it's really not. This is really bad camyness. This

716
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: This was the episode. This Cam Haynes episode was when

717
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: we we launched the new format of THHC New Music,

718
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: New Segments. It was a big deal. UM, but a

719
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: lot of you didn't like this, the new song we

720
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: have at the outset. He thought it was hipster trash

721
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: something's hipster crack trash music, hipster trash music. But we

722
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 1: launched that new song all kinds of new UH segments

723
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 1: and just fun stuff for you to enjoy. Some of

724
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 1: you loved it, some of you didn't like it. UM,

725
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: but we we launched it with a man named Cameron Haynes.

726
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: Do you are you familiar with Cameron Haynes. Yeah, I am.

727
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: I love Camon Haynes. I love the dude as you,

728
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: as you hopefully can tell from our podcast you're gonna hear.

729
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: But I went to his house in Oregon, hung out

730
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: with him, hung out with his family. He was nice

731
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: enough to let me into his UH, into his abode,

732
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: and we got to see behind the scenes of the

733
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: man so many people love on the social media's um I.

734
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: I absolutely and positively think um Cam is badass and UH.

735
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: I grew up with a father that ran ultra marathon.

736
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: So here's a man who runs fifty miles at the

737
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: drop of a hat. Uh, and so he's superhuman in

738
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: that way, at least in my mind. And so this

739
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: little clip as we kind of dig into the pop

740
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: culture part of THHC was it packed up? We did

741
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: with Cam Hagnes, which is cool. You get to find

742
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: out all the crazy ship. He's got a giant knife

743
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: in his pack. He's trying to show me how to

744
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: kind of stab a bear with it. Ridiculous. And then

745
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: we get into the Bachelor, and so this is really

746
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 1: like pop culture beat. We got into Game of Thrones,

747
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: now we're gonna get into the Bachelor. These are important,

748
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: important cultural touchpoints that we care about here at t

749
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: j C. We care about you, We care about your

750
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: knowledge of pop culture. And so this is kind of

751
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: a short one, but a fun one. Cam Hayes, I

752
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: guess I grew up on in All the Road, Dude.

753
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: We're in your layer. We're in like thet We've transported

754
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: from the inside of the house into like your upper

755
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: hunting layer room. At some point down here below us

756
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: is going to be a trophy room. Oh, because I'm

757
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: a trophy hunter. But right now, this is just kind

758
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: of where I want to pick up. We're filming this too,

759
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna pick up the cameras so everybody could

760
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: see what's going down. Yeah, so we could see all

761
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: the you're trophy room on the floor. Yeah. Yeah, we

762
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: got the wall space cleared out and it's all I'm

763
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: taking up floor space. All right, We're gonna do a

764
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: quick like this is a segment I'm trying out, trying

765
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 1: to all these newsments where trying to make things interesting.

766
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: So this is called what's in your Pack. It's generally

767
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: where you just pulls it out of your pack and

768
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: then you tell me what's what's really going on in there?

769
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: So this is what it looks like here, right, So

770
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: this is what I would take on a hunt if

771
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: I'm traveling out of state and there's just random stuff

772
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: in here, Like if I if I just pull something out, Well,

773
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: here's some This used to be a full set of wrenches. Oh,

774
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: now there's one because they're probably in the bottom of

775
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 1: this bag. That's we all have that Alan Rent set

776
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: hot hands. Hot hands. Yeah, everyone needs those broad heads.

777
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: There's Muzzy, what's up. Let's see what else we got

778
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: here underpants underwhere I'm assuming clean, but I'm not gonna

779
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna judge you. I don't want to quiver

780
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: extra quiver. It's like a half of a quiver. Yeah.

781
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: I always worry about breaking, Like if you break your

782
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: quiver on a hunt. Yeah, that's you gotta have. There's

783
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: some you can't just put arrows in your pocket. Okay,

784
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: So I got always taking picture about that quiver parts. Um, oh,

785
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: oh what's this mine bullet? Are these vitamins pre workout? Yeah?

786
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: Some kind of a little here's the other part of

787
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: the quiver. Okay, half the quiver? Oh? A bear knife?

788
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: So when I go bear hunting, this is what this

789
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: would be sticking in the tree. Is that got some

790
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: fat on it? Like a little tallow? This Usually my

791
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: knives are usually like this until I go hunting again.

792
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, see everybody, you're normal too. I guarantee you

793
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,919
Speaker 1: still have guts when your knife from the last hunt. Yeah,

794
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: let's see here cam does the same thing. See what

795
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: else we got? Um chapstick yep yep? Is that lip zips?

796
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: What kind of chapstick is that? We get a shout out?

797
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: The shout out to see if we can't get a sponsor,

798
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: says under Arm, under arm chaps sick. Yeah, you've gone

799
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: too far, under gone too far. Of course, everybody knows

800
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: that these are wet wipes. The Biday of the Woods

801
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: I call it, Yeah, the Bidday of the Woods. That's important,

802
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: that's important. We got these are from John Dudley. These

803
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: are from Lena. I John Dudley de pads. Yeah, And

804
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 1: I was crawling around so much, and he had killed

805
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: like twenty deer already, so I said, hey, k barrows

806
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: neat pads, crawled around, killed a couple of bucks. And

807
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: the thing about one I you'll find is that every

808
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 1: damn thing you have from a lie is red from

809
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: red dirt. Yeah, not like you remember that always. It's

810
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: nothing you can do. Gotta arrange finding yep. Yeah, I

811
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: gotta know how far things are. And in here we've

812
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: got some Swarovski's. They've been through a little bit. Yeah,

813
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: they've seen this swash. Those are some nice buy knows

814
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: um is a camel back, Oh, drinking apparatus. I like it?

815
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 1: What else we god? Oh, we got a quivalizer part

816
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: right here. I guess we've got another spare quiver. You

817
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: never know because this something you can just zip this

818
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: bag up and be gone if you two quivers and

819
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: you're really screwed. Um, I feel like something really good

820
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: is going to come out of eventually. I feel like

821
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: we got some good stuff. Let's see what this is

822
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: exactly how I pictured it. It really is working well.

823
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: We got oh Astuley, I didn't know I had this

824
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: the sponsor alert spot hog, keep hammering, keep paying my

825
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: trigger release, probably end up giving that away to somebody,

826
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: and and oh, this is what we're gonna end with this.

827
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: We're gonna have with this? What is this? What is

828
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: one of my friends in the Marines gave me this

829
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: keep hammering k bar. We gonna get a little zume

830
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: that right there with my name on the side, and

831
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: that's for that's from the street fights or bear attacks.

832
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: What this is gonna be my bear hunting knife. I'm

833
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: gona look at that. So you got the explain how

834
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: you do this on the podcast. But this the left

835
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,439
Speaker 1: arm in the bear's mouth, this under the pit into

836
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: the heart to do it on you. No, no, no,

837
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm good. Bear attack. Yeah, so we've all

838
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 1: seen anchor man bear fight. You know what's up becoming

839
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: d Yeah. I think that's a good one to end

840
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: somebody hopefully. Yeah. That thanks James. He gave me this night.

841
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: That's the first time we've done What's in Your Pack?

842
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: And that ship was fantastic. Well done. Okay to end

843
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: this out, like, we gotta finish this up. We've talked

844
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: about some serious stuff. But now your wife was showing

845
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 1: me that you guys watch a television program called The Bachelor.

846
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 1: Is that true? Okay, what you're saying it's okay? Is

847
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: this working? Yeah? Yeah it is? This is real. You

848
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: have to come clean. Bachelor? Is that it's a show

849
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: that I saw that your wife was watching. She admitted

850
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: to me, Now, would you watch it every Monday? And

851
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 1: then that's just every Monday season finale, which has been

852
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: like the last three nights. Who you who you're rooting for?

853
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: I always tell her I'm going to put an application

854
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: in because I always feel like those guys are kind

855
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: of like big pussies, and I'm like, they should have

856
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 1: a hunter on there. Yeah, they should. I am married,

857
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: So I don't know if that's gonna screw up the

858
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: concept of the show. He might throw a wrench in there,

859
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: but it's TV, they'll tag yourself would be a nice twist.

860
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: Your wife would come in halfway through what the fund

861
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: camp all these like honey, we're making a show. Yeah,

862
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: what are you doing? I'm gonna be famous. Yeah. So

863
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 1: you don't have any like uh the Bachelor's where a

864
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: dude has lots of ladies. You don't have any like

865
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: a lady you're rooting for in this this go around. Um,

866
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. I kind of like this one because

867
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: the Bachelor at the end he had to switch around

868
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: on him because normally he picks the ladies. They're all

869
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: crying because the ones don't get picked. Well the one

870
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: he wanted to pick, uh, So he that how it showed.

871
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: Then she he's supposed to ask one of them to

872
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: marry him, like they get married, right, they're like a fantasy,

873
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: serious stuff. Well, he was gonna ask her to marry him,

874
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 1: and she I was gonna say she wanted to go home.

875
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: She wasn't sold on him anymore. And so then he

876
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: was like tables are turned. And so then he was

877
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 1: like pulling out all the stops trying to he was shaking.

878
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: He was so upset, and she's like, are you shaking?

879
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: So I feel like he's sort of lost his man

880
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: card there on that one. If a dude so upset

881
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 1: he's shaking on a show where he could pick from

882
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 1: bassal Bassal of beauties. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's uh,

883
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,879
Speaker 1: it sounds like it sounds like a very stressful show.

884
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: But anyway, that wasn't the season fally that he was

885
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: shaking on. That's what's on right now till we go.

886
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 1: We gotta get our footy jamas, hot cocoa. Yeah yeah,

887
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 1: so that's the next stop. All right, brother, Well, thanks

888
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: for having me and I can't wait for our slumber party.

889
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: I guess I grew there. He is Cameron haynes Man,

890
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: the myth, the legend straight out of Oregon. Now this

891
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: all ties together. I didn't even intended to tie together,

892
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 1: but all ties together. Phil. Do you know how Well

893
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: after we were done recording with Cam, I went, I

894
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: drove up to Portland. I want to say it was, yeah,

895
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 1: I think it was. We did a Mediate Life podcast

896
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: in Portland and they were like some protesters and some

897
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: animal rights protesters hanging around that show. And I got

898
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: to we got to talking to him a little bit,

899
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: and I realized, like I think I might want to

900
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: explore this mindset a little bit more. I've written it

901
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 1: off for my entire life, thinking that's these are crazy people.

902
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: But it's not like this mindset, this ideology is going away.

903
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: It's in our face all the time, and it's and

904
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 1: it certainly has its threads. And as we're talking about

905
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: pop culture, so I experienced this through some quote unquote

906
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: protests of our live show and the turn it was

907
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: determined to kind of go back to the belly of

908
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 1: the beast, which I feel like it's Berkeley, California, and

909
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: explore these ideas and maybe come face to face with

910
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: why my own ideas are right or wrong and at

911
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: least hear people out and why they think this stuff.

912
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: When it turned when it comes to animal rights, and

913
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: so I I went to Berkeley, California. Is this this

914
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: is pp yep, Yeah, you're here for this. This is

915
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: about when I got I started. Oh so you were

916
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: introduced to th HD with a little bit of this.

917
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: What do you think I it's it's like jumping into

918
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: the deep end. It really is. Yeah for me it

919
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: was too. So what we're gonna hear now is kind

920
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: of a wrap up a little complation of my time

921
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 1: in Berkeley, California, and then that includes a little chat

922
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: with Cal about going to a vegan delic tessant called

923
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: the Butcher's Son and the confusing ship that happened to

924
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 1: me there, and then a little interview, a little bit

925
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 1: of the interview with Matt Johnson from Direct Action Everywhere

926
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: they called d X eight. I went to the Dingo

927
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: Den to Animal Rights Den. I don't know why they

928
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: called it den. Seems weird with a lot of dogs there, though,

929
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: I'll give them that. And then um I talked to

930
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: Robert C. Jones, vegan philosopher and professor. That all happened it.

931
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: I think it probably changed the course of this podcast

932
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: because it was so well received and everybody. It was

933
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: so impactful to everybody that wrote in and commented wherever

934
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: that ended up. And one it just just challenged me

935
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: to do more, do more, to go and find different perspectives,

936
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: especially perspectives that were divergent from my own. And so

937
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: not that that didn't that I did didn't spring from

938
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: this these couple of episodes, but it certainly did codify

939
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,439
Speaker 1: a bit became maybe bill are cemented in my own mind.

940
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it. It was confusing, it was I

941
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: was angry at some parts of it. Uh, but at

942
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: the end I took a lot from it. So I

943
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: think that's probably what would happen to everybody in a

944
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,320
Speaker 1: situation where they chanting their own ideas and perspectives and

945
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: ideologies are being challenged by someone sitting across from you.

946
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: So hopefully you felt that, and if you haven't heard it,

947
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: get ready for it. This is my Berkeley trip. Enjoy

948
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an older row. Well,

949
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: we're here on an interesting day. This is the day

950
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: where where you're going to hear the much discussed interview

951
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: that I did with a fella named Matt Johnson. And

952
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: Matt Johnson is the UM Press coordinator and also spokesman

953
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: for a group called Direct Direct a Action Everywhere, and

954
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: it's best described as an animal rights organization. They're best

955
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: known for their investigative work in the factory farms and

956
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:15,240
Speaker 1: disrupting UM talks by Jeff Bezos and getting felony charges.

957
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: In fact, the first time I met with Matt and

958
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: his friend Priya, who was one of the founders of

959
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,399
Speaker 1: Direct Action Everywhere, one of the first things that came

960
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: up in conversation was that Priya was facing several different

961
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 1: felony charges for her activism. One of those was when

962
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: she jumped up on stage with Amazon's Jeff Bezos to

963
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 1: protest factory farming conditions, and then she was charged for

964
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 1: interrupting the talk. And she faces now felony charges that

965
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: could put her in jail for up to ten years.

966
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: And so one of the things Kalin I what first

967
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: struck Jeff Bezos on a factory farm? Seems that a

968
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 1: way or many farms. He apparently the there's a California

969
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 1: poultry farm that supplies Amazon that she was very upset about.

970
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: She said, I have been inside of Amazon's chicken farms

971
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 1: where animals are criminally abused. She said, Jeff, please, you're

972
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: the richest man on the planet. You can help the animals.

973
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 1: That's what she said. I'm assuming that's on stage. Did

974
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: he say I didn't get to be the richest man

975
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: on the planet by helping animals? How do you get

976
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: to be rich these days? You abuse animals by helping

977
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 1: very few animals? Um, yeah, no, that's not yeah. Chickens

978
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 1: and chickens are gross, man, They're little little dinosaurs. Evil,

979
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,919
Speaker 1: evil little dinosaurs. Yeah, chicken chicken farms aren't aren't pretty things.

980
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: There's definitely some work that can be done there. Yeah,

981
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: And I would say that Priya and Matt are part

982
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: of this organization that would call themselves whistleblowers. Often, very

983
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: often their invest investigations are pointed towards factory farms, which

984
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 1: we can start off by saying, you and I both

985
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 1: aren't big fans back factory farms. Least, that's my guess.

986
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, No, I think there's there's a better

987
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: way out there for sure. For sure. I mean again,

988
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: it's not gonna flip light switch, right because you're getting

989
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 1: this argument of like, well, this is how much it

990
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: takes to efficiently feed people, and this is the only

991
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: way to do that. I think we're all smart folks.

992
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: You can figure out a better way. I would agree,

993
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: um and pri and Matt and their group feel like

994
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: they've they've found a better way. But just as is

995
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 1: a way to color my experiences. I was in Berkeley

996
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: sunny day in Berkeley, and I met pre and Matt

997
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: at a restaurant called the Butcher's Son that's located there

998
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: in Berkeley. It is what they call at least these

999
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: folks call a vegan delicatessent, but they also call it

1000
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 1: a vegan butcher shop, which could fused me from the outset.

1001
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: What do you feel, does that confuse you? Cal a

1002
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: vegan butcher shop? I guess yeah, butcher and butcher ring

1003
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: is a word that we've reserved for meat. Yes, so

1004
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: they have things like fried chicken, bagel, witch steak, and

1005
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: egg HOGI uh, the original chicken grinder, which is what

1006
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: I had, chicken palm, buffalo, bacon, ranch, fried chicken, barbecue,

1007
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: pulled pork, b lt lemon chicken can go on, lemon, chicken, pesto.

1008
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 1: These are all this has chicken. None of this has meat. Yeah,

1009
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: none of this has meat at all. I had this

1010
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: really bad joke. I actually my cousin used to be

1011
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: a lot of stand up comedy, um, you know, open

1012
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: my Mike Knight stuff back in his college day. I

1013
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: gave him this joke on you know things like that,

1014
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: where I just don't feel so like if if that

1015
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: part of not eating meat, if it was set up

1016
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: to like, listen, I desperately want to eat meat, but

1017
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: my convictions are such that I have to get as

1018
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 1: close to it as possible without eating meat. And that

1019
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: was like the mantra the public message, I can make

1020
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 1: room for that type of establishment. However, that that is

1021
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: not the messenging that I hear the most um by

1022
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 1: far and away. It's like, no, eating meat is wrong,

1023
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 1: then why do you go through great lengths and effort

1024
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: to transform what you do want to eat into something

1025
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 1: that resembles I don't want to eat the thing that

1026
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: you don't want to eat. So and this terrible joke

1027
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: that involved um, you know, like sexual preference. I ought

1028
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: to be good and uh it was like, no, no, no,

1029
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 1: that's not what I'm into at all. But excuse me

1030
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: while I eat this thing that resembles that thing. But

1031
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: just so there's no confusion, I'm not into that. Cousin

1032
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: on the college circuit did well with that. Yeah, And

1033
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: it's just like the righteous indignation right of like, no,

1034
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 1: it's wrong to eat chicken. What are you eating? I'm

1035
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: eating a chicken parmesan sandwich. And here's the thing that

1036
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: maybe was the most worrisome to me, because there are

1037
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: some ingredients in these dishes or sandwiches that are unlisted.

1038
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 1: Not only are they unlistened from the title of the sandwich.

1039
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 1: They're listed within when you look at the description on

1040
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: the menu, and this is all I have to go on.

1041
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: I've never met the owner of this place. Like usually

1042
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: when you go to a place, it has all the

1043
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: ingredients listed of the of the meal you're about to eat.

1044
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: So they have a steak bond me. It says served

1045
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 1: on a soft hogi with seasoned steak, sarata, mayo, cilantro, garlic,

1046
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: fish sauce, fresh alpino, shredded savoy, cabbage, and carrots and cucumber.

1047
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 1: It says seasoned steak in the ingredients list, right next

1048
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 1: to things like cilantro, which are actual things. It is

1049
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 1: the the most confusing. Now, I asked another guy that

1050
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 1: you're here on the podcast next week. His name is

1051
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 1: Robert C. Jones. He's a vegan philosopher, and you'll hear

1052
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 1: his kind of I don't want to spoil it, but

1053
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: you'll hear his reasoning for why someone might do this

1054
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: just as a just to boil it down. He feels

1055
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: like you're changing what the word chicken means if you're

1056
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 1: using it to describe things that aren't actually what we

1057
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 1: wait today understand his chicken. You are functionally changing what

1058
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: chicken is. Everyone eats chicken, but if chicken isn't just chicken,

1059
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 1: then that that opens up the definition of the term

1060
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: what people might accept as chicken. It's interesting chickens the

1061
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 1: most consumed protein in the US, and so that was

1062
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 1: his explation, is the most consumed protein worldwide. I think

1063
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: that's what Kyl brings these conversations nowadays. Now that Cow's

1064
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 1: weaken review is going You're interjections of like really hot

1065
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: facts is going up. I'm gonna say tenfold, maybe twentyfold.

1066
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 1: It's impressive. Yeah, I'm gonna start hiring myself out as

1067
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 1: like a ringer for pub trivia, like you cover all

1068
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 1: my cocktails and or you just come over to people

1069
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: if if somebody's having a boring family member over, or

1070
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: like having a boring family get together, Cow will come

1071
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,360
Speaker 1: to your house, sit at the dinner table and just say,

1072
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: did you know every once in a while in the

1073
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 1: in the conversation, you don't have I know at all, uncle,

1074
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 1: I can be that know at all uncle? He can

1075
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,959
Speaker 1: a little price a hundred bucks an hour. It's easy

1076
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:31,439
Speaker 1: anyways that that that this is how I was first

1077
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,439
Speaker 1: introduced to these folks. Nice people. Let me just say

1078
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: Matt Johnson and Priya, I don't know her last name.

1079
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 1: We had a nice lunch, like they I ate the

1080
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: chicken grind your sandwich. It tasted like a sandwich with

1081
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 1: stuff on it that looked like meat. And the biggest

1082
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: thing I thought as I was eating this, and regular

1083
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: listeners to the Old Show will know this, that my

1084
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 1: wife and I had this thing where she was asking

1085
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: for more white meat. And so then I made this

1086
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: mission killed ten turkeys a year because I felt like,

1087
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: after some calculations, that that would be enough white meat

1088
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 1: for us to to carry on through the year without

1089
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: having to buy some other white meat at the store,

1090
01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: because I'm pretty um dedicated to not buying meat from

1091
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 1: the store were store bought meat of any kind. And

1092
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 1: so I just thought, well, I would rather eat this

1093
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 1: foede chicken that was in this chicken grinder than some

1094
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 1: factory farms produce meat. I would much I would eat

1095
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 1: this before that because I would feel better about it.

1096
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: So the point I made to them, and I made

1097
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: it to Robert Jones as well, and you're here next week,

1098
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: is that I would rather you just call this what

1099
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 1: it is, so then I could better understand it, and

1100
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 1: it could be better useful in my life because I

1101
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: would rather eat fode chicken wheat filler or whatever this was,

1102
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 1: because it doesn't say on the menu what it was

1103
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 1: say there was. It says there's soy and wheat in

1104
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 1: it and tree nut treat nut. I would rather have

1105
01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: that than some factory from chicken. Yeah, but it's very

1106
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 1: confusing it. Yeah. Man, that's kind of been the you know,

1107
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: burer under my saddle on this stuff is like, if

1108
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: you're real proud of your life choices, why are they

1109
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 1: masked in things that you apparently despise? And I'm telling

1110
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: you that Burger King's getting a chicken sandwich, he knows it,

1111
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: and a Chick fil A. There's a picture of a

1112
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: chicken on the bag, so there's no way you can

1113
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 1: miss that in this. I looked on their website. I

1114
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 1: looked at all the information I could find about a

1115
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 1: Butcher's the Butcher's Vegan sun dot com. I went all

1116
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: over that thing, and I'm trying to find where they

1117
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 1: list what the actual chicken is made of. It's not there.

1118
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 1: It lists grinder meat one time, and a list of

1119
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: the allergens being soy wheat and tree nut, like I

1120
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: said earlier there, but it doesn't say what's what the

1121
01:05:56,160 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 1: chicken is. So I feel like I thought going to

1122
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: Berkeley would be strange because this is just not It's

1123
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: kind of the epicenter of a of what I of

1124
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 1: a worldview I don't know intimately that maybe I don't

1125
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 1: agree with, but at the very least it seems strange

1126
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 1: to me. This was one of the first interactions I

1127
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: had kind of with this core ideology, and it threw

1128
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: me for a loop straight off. Didn't really understand what

1129
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,439
Speaker 1: I was looking at, what I was eating, or whether

1130
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 1: I was missing something at the core of this that

1131
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 1: they were seeing that I was not. But I never

1132
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: did get much of an answer. Is it all right

1133
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: if I play a minor devil's advocate here? Please a second?

1134
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 1: Please Phil? I think, I mean, I think it's clearly

1135
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 1: like a like a tongue in cheek kind of clever

1136
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 1: way to bridge that gap for people who might look

1137
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 1: at a cube of tofu and kind of I don't think.

1138
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: I don't want to put that in my body. I

1139
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, it looks, it looks funky. Okay,

1140
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 1: So we have this other this other quote un meat

1141
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 1: products and we're going to call them chicken and steak

1142
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I think if you put that on

1143
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: your menu and that's the name of the item, okay,

1144
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: I think that's funny. But I think that you should

1145
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 1: be able to, like you said, when you tried to

1146
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 1: dig a little deeper to look into what these products

1147
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:18,439
Speaker 1: actually were. Then I think it should be crystal clear

1148
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 1: up front. They should be like, Okay, this thing that

1149
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 1: we're calling chicken parm this is what's actually gonna I

1150
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: thought for sure I was missing something. For sure I

1151
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: was missing the point because there is this you know

1152
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 1: I've had. We used to get these giant puffball mushrooms.

1153
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: Um during uh UM branding. We had this least property

1154
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 1: and we grew these huge, like pumpkin sized, puffball mushrooms

1155
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 1: and we'd cut those into steaks and you'd have like

1156
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 1: a mushroom steak. And so there's kind of a bridge

1157
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 1: to that gap. But you're not like, but what is

1158
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 1: the mushroom steak. It's it's a mushroom. That's that's that's

1159
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: what it is, right, And if you have you know

1160
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: they have like the Portobello burger right places, Yeah, I

1161
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:19,680
Speaker 1: get behind that. No problem. Yet, take those portobellos, fill

1162
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: them with a bunch of stuff on the grill, you know,

1163
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 1: and make make little um. You can make Paramesan out

1164
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah. Yeah, but nobody's gonna be like, but

1165
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 1: what is the mushroom part. It's a mushroom, right, Well

1166
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 1: maybe that's what you do, but that's what I thought

1167
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 1: to fill. This is a mushroom sandwich. Yeah. To Phil's point,

1168
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 1: I'm looking at this thing and this has to be

1169
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 1: This is like tongue in cheek because this is like

1170
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:45,400
Speaker 1: highlighting what the great alternatives to the things you really

1171
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 1: love are, which I would find value in that. And

1172
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:51,679
Speaker 1: the slternative is a bunch of smoking mirrors. Yeah, why

1173
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 1: the smoking mirrors? I don't understand. I don't get it either,

1174
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: Like I mean, that is so confusing to me. So

1175
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:00,640
Speaker 1: that that was the first part of our meeting, and

1176
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 1: when we talked about I learned what was most shocking

1177
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 1: to me is I learned the commitment that these folks

1178
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:08,799
Speaker 1: have too their worldview, in their ideologies, and the commitment

1179
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,719
Speaker 1: is such that they're willing, like Priya, to face failing

1180
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 1: the charges. And it seems like a bit of a

1181
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 1: badge of honor in the community that they're in, which ye,

1182
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 1: by point of fact, is a very small is when

1183
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 1: I have people over and people are like, man, this

1184
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:28,040
Speaker 1: is really good. What is it, I'm like, well, this

1185
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:30,280
Speaker 1: is exactly what it is. Yeah, and I'm super excited

1186
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:32,720
Speaker 1: about it. Like this mountain lion, I did this to it,

1187
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: and then I did this to it, and now it's

1188
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 1: on your plate. Well, that's glad you enjoyed it to

1189
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 1: that point. To the point you just made we as

1190
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 1: hunters are like are used to celebrating the closeness to

1191
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 1: our food, celebrating the story behind our food, celebrating the

1192
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 1: reality of what it is, the interaction with the natural

1193
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:52,479
Speaker 1: world that led to this food being where it is,

1194
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 1: knowing point to point contact how where it was and

1195
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 1: how it got to where it is. I'm sitting in

1196
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 1: a place with people that are are espousing like a

1197
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 1: similar belief in the consumption and how their consumption affects

1198
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:08,639
Speaker 1: the world. And they're pulling the wool over people's eyes.

1199
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 1: And this is a very nice establishment and it was packed.

1200
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 1: What was the name the name of it again, it's

1201
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,439
Speaker 1: called the Butcher's See. I think a better way they

1202
01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 1: could have done. It would be to have their own

1203
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 1: names of the items, just flat out and tell you

1204
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:24,080
Speaker 1: what they are or what their names for the items are,

1205
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 1: and then have something like they could still go get

1206
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:29,640
Speaker 1: like a legend, and they could still go with the

1207
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:33,040
Speaker 1: whole butcher's theme. If you like chicken palm, then maybe

1208
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 1: you'll like our blobbity blue. Like I said, I would

1209
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 1: love to have some blob but he blew at home

1210
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: with my wife rather than having to go by the

1211
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 1: produce chicken that I know was raised in a crap.

1212
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,679
Speaker 1: If you like an Italian sub than those similar flavors

1213
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 1: and textures you could find in our whatever. Yes, well,

1214
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,360
Speaker 1: yes exactly. There's another thing you'll hear into the podcast

1215
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:56,320
Speaker 1: with Robert C. Jones, where we talk about reasoning in

1216
01:10:56,479 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 1: and arguing in and debating in good faith. The good

1217
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:04,160
Speaker 1: faith is the point of these very twisted up ideological arguments.

1218
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: Always be talking in good faith. Don't be trying to trick,

1219
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 1: pull the wool over, or push into a corner. The

1220
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:12,639
Speaker 1: person that you're debating with her, talking with her, exchange

1221
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: and ideas with I feel like this is a pretty

1222
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 1: bad faith. Well it's interesting too, because man, if you're

1223
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 1: gonna feed masses of people, Like it doesn't matter what

1224
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: like if if Soy is the base of that that's

1225
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 1: coming out of cost, you know, I mean, it just

1226
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 1: it is. And we're seeing it. Like there's a lot

1227
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 1: of cases right now where it's like, oh yeah, Soy

1228
01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 1: productions up, So we're gonna you know, slash and burn

1229
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:46,720
Speaker 1: a bunch of rainforest. Um you know that that's an example.

1230
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's being done elsewhere very very well. You

1231
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 1: know obviously, like isn't udon noodles are soyer? Right? And

1232
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: Japanese been doing that for thousands and thousands of years.

1233
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 1: Uh um. Yeah. I mean this is when we go

1234
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 1: into this again in some of these conversations while I

1235
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:08,719
Speaker 1: was in Berkeley. But you look at avocados in Mexico,

1236
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 1: you look at keenwa in the Andes. There's all these

1237
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 1: these really really specific, uh examples of what you're talking about,

1238
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 1: especially with Keenwa and the Andies like that the market there,

1239
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 1: they deforcedd a ton of land to plant keenewa and

1240
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 1: then the market went bust. There's a bunch of people

1241
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,799
Speaker 1: that were poor. So, like what you said, we're consuming

1242
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: something regardless of whether we feel good about it or not,

1243
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:39,639
Speaker 1: and we are affecting someone or something regardless of whether

1244
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:42,639
Speaker 1: we feel good about it or not. And that's when

1245
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 1: you know the next step. For me. In this trip,

1246
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 1: I went to the a animal rights activist house, which

1247
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 1: is basically like a six bedroom house in the middle

1248
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 1: of this pretty quaint neighborhood in Berkeley. And in in

1249
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 1: this house lived oh I want to I want to

1250
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 1: say eight to ten, and writes activists that were working

1251
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 1: for direct action everywhere. They introduced me to a couple

1252
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 1: of dogs. One of the dogs was rescued from a

1253
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:12,799
Speaker 1: dog meat factory in China. The other one was rescued

1254
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:16,360
Speaker 1: from a dog fighting ring. And so there's a bunch

1255
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:19,200
Speaker 1: of animals. There's a bunch of people pretty stuffed into

1256
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:22,559
Speaker 1: this house and not in decent conditions but not great.

1257
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 1: But they're all they're they're all sacrificing, you know, they're

1258
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 1: living conditions a lot of times their freedom, as we've

1259
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: discussed already, two to fight this fight. And these are

1260
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 1: not um, baseless, stupid individuals. These are intelligent, well meaning people,

1261
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:43,920
Speaker 1: at least from what I could see. They're not crazy.

1262
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 1: They just have this worldview that is so different from ours,

1263
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:53,040
Speaker 1: that it's driving them to do things that we would

1264
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 1: never do and to think things that we have never

1265
01:13:56,520 --> 01:14:00,840
Speaker 1: you know, conceived of thinking, and being in that does

1266
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,479
Speaker 1: it kind of diving into their space. I sat in

1267
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 1: their house when we did an I don't have podcasts,

1268
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 1: which you'll hear after we're done this conversation, and then

1269
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:12,000
Speaker 1: they streamed it live on there um Facebook page, and

1270
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:15,880
Speaker 1: it was a fine conversation. I would say that there

1271
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:19,760
Speaker 1: are certainly some stumbling blocks from me in the way

1272
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 1: that their logic works. And one of the things I

1273
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:25,880
Speaker 1: believe that they do is they have a cascading form

1274
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:28,599
Speaker 1: of logic that as long as you you can continue

1275
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 1: to back them into a corner with counter logic and

1276
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 1: kind of get them, you know, prove disproved some of

1277
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 1: the points they make, but there's always a fallback piece

1278
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 1: of logic that one is shocking and two is difficult

1279
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,639
Speaker 1: to wrangle for most regular folks. And one of those,

1280
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 1: be interested to get your thoughts on this cow one

1281
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 1: of those which I am actively going to cut out

1282
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:53,800
Speaker 1: of the conversation you're about to hear. I want to

1283
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:55,800
Speaker 1: address it here just just to let people know why

1284
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 1: I cut it out. It is in the discussion of

1285
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 1: dominion over animals. Animal personal animal personhood is what they're

1286
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:05,639
Speaker 1: arguing for. The animals should have the same rights as people.

1287
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:09,240
Speaker 1: In fact, the constitutional Amendment would be passed to give

1288
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: animals those rights, right to live being the major factor,

1289
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: the right to not be murdered, things like that. We're

1290
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 1: talking about dominion. I said that the animal. You could

1291
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 1: not articulate those rights to the animal, and it could

1292
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 1: not articulate those rights back to you. You couldn't explain

1293
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:26,840
Speaker 1: to a bear, I'm going to give you rights. That

1294
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: means you have to act differently. I'm gonna give you rights,

1295
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:31,519
Speaker 1: so you have the right to live, so don't kill

1296
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:34,759
Speaker 1: any more bear cups. Like so, we're having a discussion

1297
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:38,800
Speaker 1: on dominion over animals. The fallback point when that gets tough,

1298
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:42,680
Speaker 1: the fallback point was just simply this. There are disabled

1299
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 1: humans who can't speak for themselves, and we give them rights.

1300
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:51,360
Speaker 1: They have the right to live, basic human rights is

1301
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 1: what they have. And the question then is why if

1302
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 1: we give disabled humans these basic rights, will we not

1303
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 1: give to extend them to animals. Neither of the two

1304
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:06,720
Speaker 1: can speak for themselves, and so I'm cutting that out.

1305
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 1: I cut that out because I feel like this's a

1306
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 1: very very offensive line to walk. As soon as I

1307
01:16:14,439 --> 01:16:18,080
Speaker 1: as soon as I'm starting to counter reason why disabled

1308
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:21,400
Speaker 1: people are like animals or vice versa, it gets it

1309
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:26,840
Speaker 1: gets into an almost impossible line of conversation, and like

1310
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 1: I said earlier, I think that's how it's set up.

1311
01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:34,599
Speaker 1: It's set up too slowly back into a corner logically

1312
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 1: a person that's not expecting, and then throw that at him.

1313
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 1: And that's just not something I want to acknowledge the idea,

1314
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:45,200
Speaker 1: but I don't. I'm not going to include that discussion. Right,

1315
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,519
Speaker 1: So it's like, so bad you think that disabled people

1316
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:52,720
Speaker 1: should be eaten? And they're like, well no, but you

1317
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 1: said what you said, right, These are logical traps that

1318
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 1: are designed, because that's really all this is. Animal personhood

1319
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 1: is just a lot jical construct. It's like, can you

1320
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 1: logically argue against what I'm saying? And so all I

1321
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:07,280
Speaker 1: have to do is build in some fail safe, some

1322
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 1: trapdoors in the conversation. I pull this lever, you're gonna

1323
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 1: fall through it one way or the other. So I

1324
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:14,720
Speaker 1: felt like that's what that was, and I very much

1325
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:17,640
Speaker 1: left the conversation upset by that you know, and I

1326
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:21,200
Speaker 1: felt like that was a bad faith move. And I

1327
01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 1: don't think there was an intentionally bad faith move. I

1328
01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:28,240
Speaker 1: just think because that logic is so connected to their worldview,

1329
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 1: they don't see it the way I saw it. And

1330
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 1: for me to have to stumble through the idea of

1331
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:38,320
Speaker 1: animals versus disabled people, I felt it was an impossible task.

1332
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 1: And it's not respectful to to those folks that are disabled,

1333
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:48,200
Speaker 1: or maybe um parents of folks that are, to say,

1334
01:17:48,200 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 1: it's just it's as weird to me. It's as weird

1335
01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:52,320
Speaker 1: as eating a chicken grinder that has no chicken in it.

1336
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 1: It's just weird. I do, I do, I do get

1337
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 1: hung up on some of this. And in the fact that,

1338
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, I definitely think that there's a lot of

1339
01:18:03,600 --> 01:18:08,719
Speaker 1: folks out there that like to think much higher of humans,

1340
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 1: then we probably should be thinking of ourselves, you know,

1341
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 1: like the example of Homo erectus. Uh. You know, people,

1342
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:26,600
Speaker 1: it's odd, like the evolution of man. Uh, It's like

1343
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 1: we really like to have like these placeholders, right and

1344
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:35,400
Speaker 1: be like, well, Homo erectus it was like this, and man,

1345
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 1: we've come so far, but it's almost daily that we're

1346
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 1: learning so much more about home erect us that we

1347
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 1: have an insane amount in common, right, and as well,

1348
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 1: what about this, this and this. It's like oh no, no,

1349
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:57,639
Speaker 1: no that you know, look at the evolutionary steps here. Okay,

1350
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:03,000
Speaker 1: that's that's way back then. Yeah, well a lot of

1351
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 1: what was happening way back then is still happening right now.

1352
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 1: We just came up with fancier names for it. Yeah, well,

1353
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 1: you're right, And I think there's the other constructor that

1354
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:16,639
Speaker 1: I agree with a little bit, but them to your point,

1355
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:20,920
Speaker 1: I diverge from that agreement is like, the history is progressive,

1356
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:26,920
Speaker 1: there are there's always these ideas that were held is

1357
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 1: either sacred or at least held in in the communal sense,

1358
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 1: is okay that when we look back, or like, that's insane?

1359
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:36,720
Speaker 1: Why did people ever do that? And so that's kind

1360
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:39,840
Speaker 1: of how they feel about this idea. They feel as

1361
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:45,719
Speaker 1: if they would be akin to someone that was, for example,

1362
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:49,800
Speaker 1: against slavery, when our entire culture was for it. In fact,

1363
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:53,280
Speaker 1: our entire country was built on the idea of enslaving

1364
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:55,680
Speaker 1: other human beings. So I feel like that's how they

1365
01:19:55,840 --> 01:20:01,320
Speaker 1: feel that their place in history is their revolutionary the

1366
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 1: revolutionaries in a way that we can't understand because we're

1367
01:20:05,080 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 1: we're akin to the slavers saying slavery is just a

1368
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:11,040
Speaker 1: part of our country, this is how it was built.

1369
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 1: Why would we get rid of it? And so that

1370
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 1: that's another logical constrict that they've built that kind of

1371
01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:20,400
Speaker 1: eliminates a lot of Hey, let's argue, what's happened in

1372
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:22,800
Speaker 1: the past two million years of evolution has led to

1373
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:24,719
Speaker 1: where we are today. Why would we throw that away?

1374
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:29,400
Speaker 1: So they're, like I said, there's there's arguments that they've

1375
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:31,759
Speaker 1: built that kind of you know, work their way around

1376
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:33,720
Speaker 1: some of these things. But to your point, I think

1377
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:36,560
Speaker 1: two million years of evolution is a lot different than slavery.

1378
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:40,760
Speaker 1: There's a lot less human of that human condition than

1379
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:42,839
Speaker 1: there is of the hunting or eating meat human condition.

1380
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:45,920
Speaker 1: So it's those things that's not apples to apples, but

1381
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 1: it is a way to kind of get around that

1382
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:51,760
Speaker 1: comparison that they've used. Yeah, yeah, and you definitely hear

1383
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 1: that right. Well, we used to think right and there

1384
01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:58,160
Speaker 1: was a time when and they're not wrong about that, No,

1385
01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:00,920
Speaker 1: they're right about And I would make the point that

1386
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:04,880
Speaker 1: history is progressive, but like comparatively, the space and time

1387
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 1: where we enslaved humans, even though it was a very

1388
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:10,360
Speaker 1: very very long time in our history, is much shorter

1389
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 1: than the amount of time that are even you know,

1390
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:17,960
Speaker 1: you're talking Homo erectus to Homo sapien and even before

1391
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:22,160
Speaker 1: that even you know, lower hominids that were I mean it,

1392
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:26,200
Speaker 1: it is like, you know, I'm sorry, but you just can't.

1393
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:31,519
Speaker 1: There's there was no period in time where everybody was

1394
01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:39,560
Speaker 1: for one thing, slavery cuneaform writing how to chisel a

1395
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:43,640
Speaker 1: freaking rock, like all of society wasn't ever on the

1396
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:47,040
Speaker 1: same page at one point in time, just never never was,

1397
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:51,679
Speaker 1: especially if you want to talk about slavery, right because

1398
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,320
Speaker 1: the enslaved, we're probably like, you know what, I'm starting

1399
01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:58,080
Speaker 1: to have second thoughts about this whole slavery thing. Turns

1400
01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: out not that great, Yes, and I and they're able

1401
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 1: to do that right. Um there. There's there's a thing

1402
01:22:07,320 --> 01:22:11,519
Speaker 1: that happens to with this argument, and it twists me.

1403
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:13,200
Speaker 1: Another thing that twists me up a little bit is

1404
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:17,280
Speaker 1: these folks. The the ideology is so powerful that these folks,

1405
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 1: I'm not saying they may or may not be willing

1406
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:21,040
Speaker 1: to die for it. I don't know, but they're certainly

1407
01:22:21,040 --> 01:22:22,920
Speaker 1: willing to go to prison and ruin their lives over it.

1408
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:26,680
Speaker 1: And so the feeling that they have when they wake

1409
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:28,640
Speaker 1: up in the morning, whether it's a misguided feeling or not.

1410
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:31,519
Speaker 1: And I went to Berkeley in hopes to kind of

1411
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:34,840
Speaker 1: understand it better. And I left this particular conversation you're

1412
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:37,679
Speaker 1: about to hear more confused than ever. But it certainly

1413
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 1: did help me. Um, you know, go to the gym

1414
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:43,320
Speaker 1: with my ideas and make sure they were strong enough

1415
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:47,360
Speaker 1: to hold up. But and another thing I will say

1416
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:50,880
Speaker 1: is I went into this interview with no I didn't

1417
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,719
Speaker 1: prep I didn't rename books or have any quotes or stats.

1418
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 1: I just wanted to see what that conversation would be

1419
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:58,960
Speaker 1: like with what I currently knew and what this person

1420
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:03,120
Speaker 1: currently knew, you know, and just in weigh those things

1421
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 1: with each other without having without me, with no cards,

1422
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:09,200
Speaker 1: with like here's a statue ought to consider. I didn't

1423
01:23:09,240 --> 01:23:12,040
Speaker 1: want that. I wanted to be natural flow of conversation,

1424
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 1: at least on my end. So you got to know that.

1425
01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:18,080
Speaker 1: But you also got to know that these people believe

1426
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:22,000
Speaker 1: this so mind alteringly that they're willing to do just

1427
01:23:22,120 --> 01:23:25,280
Speaker 1: about anything because they feel like they're saving lives that

1428
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:28,919
Speaker 1: are being to do anything other than call a sandwich

1429
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:33,840
Speaker 1: what it is outside of that, willing to go to prison. Okay,

1430
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:40,480
Speaker 1: but this is chicken, but my Phillies cheese steak contains

1431
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:45,160
Speaker 1: some things, yeah that we shan't talk about. We shan't. No,

1432
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:48,880
Speaker 1: we shan't not. Yeah, And I so like I said this,

1433
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:52,120
Speaker 1: this is there's two parts of of my trip to

1434
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:55,960
Speaker 1: Berkeley specifically to pursue these ideas. The first one you're

1435
01:23:55,960 --> 01:23:58,320
Speaker 1: about to hear, and the second one you're here next

1436
01:23:58,360 --> 01:24:02,000
Speaker 1: week on part of a vegan philosopher named Robert C. Jones.

1437
01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:07,080
Speaker 1: I came out of both these conversations better equipped to

1438
01:24:07,200 --> 01:24:10,280
Speaker 1: handle these conversations in the future. I learned a lot.

1439
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:12,880
Speaker 1: I feel like I got twisted up a lot with

1440
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:16,320
Speaker 1: some of this stuff. Um, I think as anybody probably

1441
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,639
Speaker 1: would if I was saying wins and losses. I think

1442
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:21,719
Speaker 1: there were a lot of winds logically and some losses.

1443
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:25,400
Speaker 1: But um, I'm glad I did it because I'm now better. One.

1444
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:28,000
Speaker 1: I understand what it's like to be, just for a

1445
01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 1: brief moment, what it's like to be these people, and

1446
01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:33,439
Speaker 1: what it's like to feel that way, and to devote

1447
01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:35,559
Speaker 1: your life to saving the lives of things you think

1448
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 1: are being murdered on mass scale. Um, what it must

1449
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:43,120
Speaker 1: feel like for them to grab run into a factory

1450
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:45,160
Speaker 1: farm and grab a chicken and run out, they must

1451
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:49,759
Speaker 1: feel it. I think that there, you know, heroes saving lives,

1452
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:52,080
Speaker 1: and so I have better understanding of that. But I

1453
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:54,720
Speaker 1: don't know that I came out of there with a

1454
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:59,560
Speaker 1: better appreciation. But it's kind of like like the you know,

1455
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:04,479
Speaker 1: they're they're the argument isn't against factory farming, right, It's

1456
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 1: it's against animals being cultivated and eaten, you know, and

1457
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:13,720
Speaker 1: and and they but they like to boil it down

1458
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:16,800
Speaker 1: to like, well, this is what we're against. Yeah, but

1459
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 1: you know you and I talked to those uh animal

1460
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:25,639
Speaker 1: rights folks and Sacramento and uh Anonymous for the Voiceless. Yeah,

1461
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 1: and you know it's like, I mean, it's just so funny,

1462
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:33,679
Speaker 1: like my mom's little farm there and outside of Billings,

1463
01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:38,400
Speaker 1: you know, half of those freaking animals would walk up

1464
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 1: to We're looking to get their ears scratched, you know,

1465
01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:46,240
Speaker 1: like they were not living in a stressed environment at all.

1466
01:25:47,600 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 1: And uh, you know a lot of those things turned

1467
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 1: into meat. Those creatures turned into meat. So um, it's

1468
01:25:55,479 --> 01:26:03,280
Speaker 1: like yeah, man, it is. And it's really interesting thing

1469
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:07,240
Speaker 1: as far as like you know, those animals don't have

1470
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:14,800
Speaker 1: super long lifespans. This is like people need to be fed.

1471
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:19,679
Speaker 1: This is how they're currently being fed. Yeah. They they're

1472
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:23,040
Speaker 1: talking about a sea change to our humanity. You know,

1473
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 1: they're talking about a shift in how we interact with

1474
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:30,479
Speaker 1: the natural world and the world around us. It's in

1475
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:33,920
Speaker 1: and of itself that's going to have a cascading negative

1476
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:36,600
Speaker 1: effect to our our entire world if we were to

1477
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:39,000
Speaker 1: go the way that they want us to go. And

1478
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 1: I think maybe they partly understand the means of production

1479
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:49,599
Speaker 1: there against the consumption. Imagine, imagine if a world where

1480
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 1: next year, for the next presidency, the first thing they

1481
01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:57,080
Speaker 1: do is try to get a constitutional amendment past that's

1482
01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:01,280
Speaker 1: talking about animal for personhood and saying you if you

1483
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:04,479
Speaker 1: kill an animal, you're a murderer. You go to jail.

1484
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:09,120
Speaker 1: That's that's that's the idea, and so that's what that's

1485
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:11,840
Speaker 1: the strength of that idea, at least for the people

1486
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:16,640
Speaker 1: that hold it is is ridiculously strong. I mean it

1487
01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:22,639
Speaker 1: is it's in their minds infallible and so at least

1488
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:25,120
Speaker 1: I got to understand that from their perspective, And hopefully

1489
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:26,800
Speaker 1: if you listen to the interview coming up here in

1490
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:30,240
Speaker 1: a minute, you'll you'll get that too. But it's certainly

1491
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:33,160
Speaker 1: if you would a race, if you call, if you

1492
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:36,160
Speaker 1: and I and even you feel would relay a race

1493
01:27:36,240 --> 01:27:38,240
Speaker 1: what you currently believe and kind of approach the world

1494
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:41,559
Speaker 1: with a blank slate. At the very least, what they

1495
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:46,360
Speaker 1: what they're saying would be compelling because they believe it's

1496
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:50,200
Speaker 1: evan strongly. You know it could. Could I make as

1497
01:27:50,240 --> 01:27:53,200
Speaker 1: compelling a case for hunting as they do for murdering animals?

1498
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:57,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if I could, because they I mean,

1499
01:27:57,360 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 1: they're willing to go to their felony charges, multiple felony

1500
01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:05,280
Speaker 1: charges for multiple members. In fact, the founder, the true

1501
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:08,720
Speaker 1: founder of d x c's React Action everywhere, he's going

1502
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:11,080
Speaker 1: to go to jail for a long time. He's just

1503
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:17,680
Speaker 1: awaiting sentencing and awaiting a trial. So it's that's a

1504
01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:21,800
Speaker 1: person going to jail over the over this idea. So

1505
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:25,360
Speaker 1: it's that's pretty strong. I don't think of any examples

1506
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:29,200
Speaker 1: in hunting where people are going to jail for this.

1507
01:28:30,280 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to go to the clank like comparing stories.

1508
01:28:35,040 --> 01:28:39,360
Speaker 1: What are you in for? Interrupted Jeff Bezo? He uh,

1509
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:46,120
Speaker 1: pretty good. Minutes in I jumped up on stage. All right, Well, um,

1510
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:52,080
Speaker 1: any final words there child before we transport to Berkeley. No,

1511
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:57,200
Speaker 1: take us away, Phil, Are you good? Yeah, I'm I'm

1512
01:28:57,280 --> 01:28:58,559
Speaker 1: doing good. I don't know if he wanted to put

1513
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:00,960
Speaker 1: throw down some some Simon gar Funkle to set the

1514
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 1: scene or something while we transport to Berkeley. I guess it.

1515
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:14,360
Speaker 1: It weighs heavy on your ideologies that there's millions of

1516
01:29:14,479 --> 01:29:18,040
Speaker 1: years of doing these activities now removing just just talking

1517
01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:23,160
Speaker 1: about hunting and removing factory farming because that's industrial evolution onward. Um,

1518
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:28,320
Speaker 1: there's I just think you have a lot to explain,

1519
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:32,479
Speaker 1: Like you have to to make the jump from racism

1520
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:36,040
Speaker 1: to species is M seems like such a gigantic gap

1521
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 1: to me, you know, from from understanding an African Americans

1522
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:43,720
Speaker 1: right to eat at the same counter to say a

1523
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:48,200
Speaker 1: pig's right not to be slaughtered. There's a huge gap.

1524
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:52,360
Speaker 1: And there's all there's no human history too to back

1525
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:55,519
Speaker 1: it up, right, So I'll set that up for you.

1526
01:29:56,240 --> 01:29:58,200
Speaker 1: Take it away? Oh yeah, I mean yeah, I think

1527
01:29:58,240 --> 01:30:00,600
Speaker 1: we should explore you know it might you know, I

1528
01:30:00,640 --> 01:30:03,439
Speaker 1: can understand it. It feels like a huge gap. Uh,

1529
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:06,000
Speaker 1: and so you should just like explore exactly what that is.

1530
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:08,600
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, just just you take like

1531
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:11,800
Speaker 1: discrimination by the book. I think it it fits. It's

1532
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:14,080
Speaker 1: it's just group A, it's group B. You're not saying,

1533
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:17,559
Speaker 1: you know, you know, like the activists will always say,

1534
01:30:17,600 --> 01:30:19,880
Speaker 1: like name the traite, Like what is the trait? Don't

1535
01:30:20,160 --> 01:30:22,439
Speaker 1: not the group, but what is the trait by which

1536
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:25,280
Speaker 1: we you know, respect right, the right to life, the

1537
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:27,680
Speaker 1: right to bodily autonomy, the right to freedom. And there

1538
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:32,679
Speaker 1: really is nothing but we haven't touched that term bodily autonomy.

1539
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:34,960
Speaker 1: What's Yeah, I mean, it's just it's just like I

1540
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:37,400
Speaker 1: nobody can do anything with my body that I don't

1541
01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:41,080
Speaker 1: consent to. You can't you know, you know, from cutting

1542
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:43,439
Speaker 1: the tail off of a pig or you know, or

1543
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:46,160
Speaker 1: you know obviously just killing animals like that sort of

1544
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 1: a thing. Um, So that goes down to like just

1545
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 1: consent basically. Yeah, And and we wouldn't you know, you

1546
01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:53,479
Speaker 1: would you would never dream in a million years of saying,

1547
01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:55,559
Speaker 1: you know, because a human is you know, you name,

1548
01:30:55,600 --> 01:30:58,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't doesn't communicate the same way you do, or

1549
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:00,200
Speaker 1: isn't as smart as you, or has some sort of disability,

1550
01:31:00,320 --> 01:31:03,799
Speaker 1: or is less intelligent. However, you know how we measure intelligence,

1551
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:06,200
Speaker 1: less intelligent than a pig. You know, never in a

1552
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:08,760
Speaker 1: million years will we dream of saying like okay, forgot him,

1553
01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:10,760
Speaker 1: you know, and in fact, we'll go through a great

1554
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:14,240
Speaker 1: expense to to enrich the life of that human, you know,

1555
01:31:14,320 --> 01:31:16,720
Speaker 1: great expense to to make sure that they, you know,

1556
01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:20,160
Speaker 1: have have a meaningful life and have these rights. Um,

1557
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:23,840
Speaker 1: and so yeah, I mean I think that uh, you know,

1558
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:25,920
Speaker 1: it probably sounded like a big jump for for white

1559
01:31:25,960 --> 01:31:28,280
Speaker 1: people to say, wait a second, these these these slaves,

1560
01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:30,120
Speaker 1: like we're gonna give them rights Like that feels like

1561
01:31:30,160 --> 01:31:31,760
Speaker 1: such a jump, Like I can't how they wrap my

1562
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 1: head around it. And it's a very strange concept. And

1563
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:35,559
Speaker 1: it takes time, and it takes a lot of these

1564
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:38,920
Speaker 1: kind of conversations, and it takes activism and eventually, um,

1565
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:40,960
Speaker 1: you know, society shifts when we look back and it

1566
01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:45,320
Speaker 1: all seems so obvious. Um, Like I said, I don't

1567
01:31:45,400 --> 01:31:47,880
Speaker 1: I'm not blind to that that that that's happened. What

1568
01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:50,720
Speaker 1: I am what I don't understand is how we get

1569
01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:54,000
Speaker 1: from from A to B there and it seems circular,

1570
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:59,720
Speaker 1: and it's and it's logic. Um we circular can if

1571
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:03,400
Speaker 1: so if if an animal is a person and a

1572
01:32:03,439 --> 01:32:06,560
Speaker 1: person is an animal, where it seems circular to me

1573
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:08,960
Speaker 1: is that animals kill other animals, right Like if if

1574
01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:12,600
Speaker 1: if I was to say, like, it's more natural for

1575
01:32:12,720 --> 01:32:15,040
Speaker 1: me if I am, if I'm the same thing as

1576
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:17,320
Speaker 1: a deer, the deer is the same thing for me.

1577
01:32:18,520 --> 01:32:20,439
Speaker 1: It's more natural for me to act as in the

1578
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 1: predator prey you know, relationship that's been around for as

1579
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:27,640
Speaker 1: long as we've been around, as long as we've been

1580
01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:32,360
Speaker 1: cohabitating with these creatures. It seems to me more logical

1581
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:35,760
Speaker 1: that I would fall into. And I don't. I don't

1582
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:38,679
Speaker 1: usually use this argument, but if you were to level

1583
01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:42,679
Speaker 1: the playing field and there's one species, right, every everything

1584
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:44,439
Speaker 1: is the same and it's rights in the way that

1585
01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:48,640
Speaker 1: it's treated, I then feel that I fall into what

1586
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:51,000
Speaker 1: a grizzly bear feels about. You know, like if you

1587
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:53,480
Speaker 1: asked a grizzly bear about an elk, it would say delicious,

1588
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:56,439
Speaker 1: yeah so so so with human beings, you know, to

1589
01:32:56,520 --> 01:32:58,920
Speaker 1: take to take the analogy. So you know, I think

1590
01:32:58,960 --> 01:33:01,040
Speaker 1: you and I would hold it value that all humans,

1591
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:04,719
Speaker 1: you know, deserve this right to personhood. And the fact

1592
01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:06,840
Speaker 1: that maybe there are humans on the other side of

1593
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:09,560
Speaker 1: the planet who, because they don't know any better or

1594
01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:12,479
Speaker 1: for the sake of survival, are killing one another, that

1595
01:33:12,600 --> 01:33:15,120
Speaker 1: doesn't change our view that that all humans should have

1596
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:19,360
Speaker 1: basic personhood. Yeah. But but a grizzly bear, it's innate

1597
01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:23,120
Speaker 1: and a grizzly bear to kill like. I've been around

1598
01:33:23,120 --> 01:33:25,479
Speaker 1: grizzly bears, have been around wolves, have been around mountain lions,

1599
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 1: apex predators, in in their totality, it is in their

1600
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,639
Speaker 1: being to kill like that's what they do. They don't

1601
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:39,160
Speaker 1: reason it, they don't feel it emotionally. A grizzly bear

1602
01:33:39,240 --> 01:33:41,560
Speaker 1: is a grizzly bear, and part of its being is

1603
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:45,080
Speaker 1: to part of it's it's grizzly barness, if you will,

1604
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:48,880
Speaker 1: is to kill things like it that you can't remove.

1605
01:33:48,920 --> 01:33:51,200
Speaker 1: You would, you would. You can never sit down with

1606
01:33:51,200 --> 01:33:53,840
Speaker 1: the grizzly bear and reason it out of eating a

1607
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:59,320
Speaker 1: fawn from a pregnant deer, or killing killing the cubs

1608
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:02,479
Speaker 1: of a sal eating I'm you know, I've seen this,

1609
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:03,680
Speaker 1: and I have a lot of friends have seen this.

1610
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:07,000
Speaker 1: A grizzly bear or a you know, brown bear will

1611
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:10,560
Speaker 1: kill cubs of a stal to make that stile go

1612
01:34:10,680 --> 01:34:13,120
Speaker 1: back and heat. You can't. You couldn't remove that. You

1613
01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:16,000
Speaker 1: couldn't remove that from the grizzly bears. You can't. So

1614
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:17,680
Speaker 1: my argument would be, if we're the same as a

1615
01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:19,559
Speaker 1: grizzly bear, you wouldn't be able to rumin that from us.

1616
01:34:20,320 --> 01:34:22,080
Speaker 1: And if if you can remove that from us, are

1617
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:24,519
Speaker 1: we are we? Then not? We're then we're different. If

1618
01:34:24,560 --> 01:34:28,639
Speaker 1: I'm able to remove my predatory instinct that's been built

1619
01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:33,599
Speaker 1: over hundreds of thousands, millions of years, if I can

1620
01:34:33,640 --> 01:34:35,519
Speaker 1: remove it from me, that makes me different than the bear.

1621
01:34:35,800 --> 01:34:39,840
Speaker 1: Well so, so um, we could again take take the

1622
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:42,080
Speaker 1: same conversation and you'd say, well what about you know,

1623
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:43,720
Speaker 1: how how did how did I get here today? Well,

1624
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:46,679
Speaker 1: you know, in addition to consumption of animals and hunting

1625
01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:48,800
Speaker 1: of animals, I got here today by a product of

1626
01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:50,840
Speaker 1: all sorts you know, the winners of wars, you know,

1627
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:53,600
Speaker 1: by through through all sorts of violence, all sorts of

1628
01:34:53,720 --> 01:34:56,160
Speaker 1: rape on down the line. This is how I became

1629
01:34:56,160 --> 01:34:57,880
Speaker 1: who I am. And so this you could argue that

1630
01:34:57,960 --> 01:35:00,240
Speaker 1: this is innate in all humans do is extreme violence

1631
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:03,200
Speaker 1: towards other humans and we but we don't fall back

1632
01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:05,800
Speaker 1: on that and say exactly that's my point. My point

1633
01:35:05,880 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 1: is we can innately change. We have the ability to

1634
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:13,160
Speaker 1: innately change that predatory instinct. We've changed it through technology,

1635
01:35:13,840 --> 01:35:17,799
Speaker 1: the advancement our civilizations. How we think about and relate

1636
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:20,639
Speaker 1: towards animals has changed over time because we have changed

1637
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:25,360
Speaker 1: over time. I haven't seen a grizzly bear or been

1638
01:35:25,360 --> 01:35:27,280
Speaker 1: around a grizzly bear from a hundred thousand years ago,

1639
01:35:27,600 --> 01:35:32,000
Speaker 1: but I imagine that it's the same thing like grizzly bears, aren't.

1640
01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:34,920
Speaker 1: I promise you you'll never find a grizzly bear that

1641
01:35:34,960 --> 01:35:37,280
Speaker 1: you're gonna be able to convince over time, through technology,

1642
01:35:37,360 --> 01:35:42,360
Speaker 1: through advancement, through through even better sentience, not to kill

1643
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:45,720
Speaker 1: a need. And so I think what you're saying kind

1644
01:35:45,720 --> 01:35:48,120
Speaker 1: of makes the point. If if, if humans are able

1645
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:51,519
Speaker 1: to change the way we feel about animals in the

1646
01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:55,040
Speaker 1: way that you would like to that that just by

1647
01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:58,639
Speaker 1: the ability to do that makes us different than animals. Yeah,

1648
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:02,519
Speaker 1: against like uh, I think you could again make the

1649
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:04,680
Speaker 1: human comparison like there are just like there are some

1650
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:07,599
Speaker 1: animals named you know, bears in this example, who you're

1651
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:09,280
Speaker 1: not gonna be able to change. There are some humans

1652
01:36:09,320 --> 01:36:10,880
Speaker 1: who you're not gonna be able to change. So some

1653
01:36:11,120 --> 01:36:13,120
Speaker 1: so you do take the the animal kingdom, and and

1654
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:15,360
Speaker 1: you subdivide and say some can, some can't. Take the

1655
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:18,200
Speaker 1: human species will some can, some can't. Some some humans

1656
01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: are you don't have a mental disorder or whatever. And

1657
01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:23,400
Speaker 1: that doesn't change what's income in upon us, you know,

1658
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:26,479
Speaker 1: individuals with moral agency to say like, hey, like you

1659
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:28,439
Speaker 1: know this, how what's the right way for us to live?

1660
01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:30,720
Speaker 1: And and and the question of you know, what do

1661
01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:33,240
Speaker 1: we do with with these individuals who have you know,

1662
01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:37,160
Speaker 1: whether it's humans who have violent tendencies or not our

1663
01:36:37,320 --> 01:36:39,400
Speaker 1: animals who have have it in aid in them to

1664
01:36:39,439 --> 01:36:43,280
Speaker 1: be violent. That's an extremely complicated question. But I think

1665
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:47,040
Speaker 1: that where where I think many people fall short is

1666
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:49,080
Speaker 1: that they say, well, it's complicated, so therefore we throw

1667
01:36:49,080 --> 01:36:51,280
Speaker 1: our hands in there. We say it's fine, or even

1668
01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:54,880
Speaker 1: say it's beautiful frankly, you know, and there's funny things

1669
01:36:54,880 --> 01:36:58,800
Speaker 1: about nature of seeing the non beautiful parts. Yeah, yeah,

1670
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:04,160
Speaker 1: I think I struggle with in that idea is a

1671
01:37:04,240 --> 01:37:09,560
Speaker 1: grizzly bear must have it, must have it's it's a carnivore.

1672
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:14,719
Speaker 1: It must have that dear to live. It can't it's

1673
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:19,360
Speaker 1: digestive system, the way that it functions. It can't remove

1674
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:22,240
Speaker 1: that from the way it is. It can't just all

1675
01:37:22,240 --> 01:37:25,559
Speaker 1: of a sudden decide well, I don't want to eat

1676
01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:28,519
Speaker 1: these things anymore. It is program. It is in its DNA,

1677
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 1: it's in its genetics. Now I'm not I'm not saying

1678
01:37:33,040 --> 01:37:35,719
Speaker 1: I agree with the bears feelings, but but the bear

1679
01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:39,600
Speaker 1: is the bear, right, And so I see it more pragmatically,

1680
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:42,479
Speaker 1: and I gotta look and I would encourage you to

1681
01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:44,960
Speaker 1: look at the animal, you know, not compared. Can I

1682
01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:46,840
Speaker 1: keep comparing the animals to the human, the animals to

1683
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:49,639
Speaker 1: the human. Look at the animal like that. The animal

1684
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:53,360
Speaker 1: they are what it are, They are what they are,

1685
01:37:53,479 --> 01:37:57,960
Speaker 1: they function, how they function. And being close to nature

1686
01:37:58,160 --> 01:38:00,920
Speaker 1: in the natural world, and understanding that predator prey and

1687
01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:04,320
Speaker 1: understanding the mating habits and where they sleep and what

1688
01:38:04,479 --> 01:38:07,040
Speaker 1: they eat and kind of how all that comes together,

1689
01:38:07,439 --> 01:38:09,640
Speaker 1: which Honey has done for me. It's allowed me to

1690
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:13,280
Speaker 1: kind of understand these things. And I'm happy for that,

1691
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:16,839
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not necessarily happy for having killed dozens,

1692
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:20,360
Speaker 1: hundreds of animals. That's not where I get my happiness.

1693
01:38:20,439 --> 01:38:22,960
Speaker 1: I get my happiness been able to. It's changed the

1694
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:25,280
Speaker 1: way I value animals. It's changed the way that I

1695
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:27,640
Speaker 1: see them and I feel about them. It's changed the

1696
01:38:27,680 --> 01:38:29,840
Speaker 1: way that I understand their role in my role in

1697
01:38:29,880 --> 01:38:32,920
Speaker 1: the in the natural world. I see them. I think

1698
01:38:33,120 --> 01:38:34,960
Speaker 1: we said we differ here for sure. It's like I

1699
01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:37,200
Speaker 1: see them as a resource, you know, I see them

1700
01:38:37,240 --> 01:38:40,960
Speaker 1: as if I take one and there's a thousand healthy ones,

1701
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:43,040
Speaker 1: that that makes me happy, and I feel like I've

1702
01:38:43,120 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 1: I've taken part in and this dance that that is

1703
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:48,840
Speaker 1: valuable to our world, and it has been shown to

1704
01:38:48,880 --> 01:38:52,040
Speaker 1: be valuable to our world. So that's I think that's

1705
01:38:52,240 --> 01:38:54,280
Speaker 1: you know, that's part of where we come up at odds.

1706
01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:58,040
Speaker 1: But I think you have to think about the animal,

1707
01:38:58,320 --> 01:39:01,519
Speaker 1: like even if you've removed humans from the equation, which

1708
01:39:01,560 --> 01:39:03,840
Speaker 1: would probably be the best thing we could do for

1709
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:06,280
Speaker 1: any of these animals, because we eat up their habitat

1710
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:09,800
Speaker 1: and we plant roads, We are we pay a row

1711
01:39:09,840 --> 01:39:14,240
Speaker 1: as we build houses like this one and destroy their habitat.

1712
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:18,000
Speaker 1: So in thinking about the animal, like remove if if

1713
01:39:18,080 --> 01:39:19,560
Speaker 1: you can, and then tell me if you can't, like

1714
01:39:20,080 --> 01:39:25,080
Speaker 1: remove the comparison to humans. If if we were to

1715
01:39:25,160 --> 01:39:28,640
Speaker 1: then say, these things are gonna live and thrive, how

1716
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:30,439
Speaker 1: would they do it without killing each other? How would

1717
01:39:30,439 --> 01:39:34,200
Speaker 1: they do it without without the predator prayer relationship and

1718
01:39:34,240 --> 01:39:37,200
Speaker 1: the food chain? And so I think it, Yeah, like

1719
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:39,959
Speaker 1: you rightfully point out that it is. It's very complex,

1720
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:42,280
Speaker 1: like to just just wrap your head around, like how

1721
01:39:42,439 --> 01:39:45,040
Speaker 1: is such a thing even possible? And I think that

1722
01:39:45,680 --> 01:39:49,000
Speaker 1: you know, um, you know, you you use the term pragmatic,

1723
01:39:49,320 --> 01:39:52,439
Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, again, I just think

1724
01:39:52,479 --> 01:39:55,040
Speaker 1: it's just apt. So like you know, if you like, well,

1725
01:39:55,240 --> 01:39:56,840
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do if we if we free

1726
01:39:56,920 --> 01:39:59,280
Speaker 1: the slaves, and so it's not pragmatic. These people, like

1727
01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:01,960
Speaker 1: how are they gonna get jobs? They're not educated, Like

1728
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:03,600
Speaker 1: it's just such a huge problem and it was just

1729
01:40:03,960 --> 01:40:07,040
Speaker 1: this this rationale to just try to stay in trenched

1730
01:40:07,080 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 1: and what we're doing right now. And so you're you're right.

1731
01:40:09,280 --> 01:40:12,360
Speaker 1: So I think that you know, prag you know, to

1732
01:40:12,560 --> 01:40:16,720
Speaker 1: do what you might call pragmatic, a pragmatic solution, it

1733
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:19,800
Speaker 1: really dismisses, you know, what's possible and the fact that

1734
01:40:19,840 --> 01:40:21,880
Speaker 1: we can do so much more. And as far as

1735
01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:23,720
Speaker 1: like what do we actually do about these animals to

1736
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:27,160
Speaker 1: stop them from eating one another. Extremely complex. I mean

1737
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:28,840
Speaker 1: there are like you know, we have some hints of

1738
01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:31,439
Speaker 1: some solutions of things like you can do like um,

1739
01:40:32,439 --> 01:40:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, like you can do like highway over passes,

1740
01:40:34,479 --> 01:40:38,519
Speaker 1: or like like uh, wildlife can can crawl, you know,

1741
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:41,639
Speaker 1: walk underneath roads, or you can have there's like high

1742
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:44,160
Speaker 1: pitched sound emitters that you can do on on machinery

1743
01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:47,000
Speaker 1: so that animals run away. But frankly we're not even

1744
01:40:47,040 --> 01:40:49,440
Speaker 1: like scratching the surface of that. So so my perspective

1745
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:51,920
Speaker 1: is that if we can move from a place where

1746
01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:54,479
Speaker 1: we look at animals as just it means to to

1747
01:40:54,600 --> 01:40:57,400
Speaker 1: our ends, and then we can shift the whole narrative,

1748
01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 1: the whole game around that, and we say animals are

1749
01:41:00,479 --> 01:41:03,280
Speaker 1: individual persons and they have a right to to bodily

1750
01:41:03,320 --> 01:41:05,839
Speaker 1: autonomy and so on. That's when we bring in the experts.

1751
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 1: We bring in the the animal behaviorists, the biologists that

1752
01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:12,360
Speaker 1: you know, the Silicon Valley techie people, and and we

1753
01:41:12,560 --> 01:41:14,200
Speaker 1: we look at all these solutions. Is there a way

1754
01:41:14,240 --> 01:41:16,560
Speaker 1: to to control their breeding, Is there a way to

1755
01:41:17,040 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 1: maybe change their genetics? Maybe maybe animals can be bred

1756
01:41:20,200 --> 01:41:22,880
Speaker 1: away from from some of these hatits and that that

1757
01:41:22,960 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 1: sounds like some sci fi stuff right now. But you know,

1758
01:41:26,960 --> 01:41:28,639
Speaker 1: like we we we've we made it to the moon,

1759
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:31,080
Speaker 1: and we we got the Internet and we got airplanes,

1760
01:41:31,360 --> 01:41:33,400
Speaker 1: and so you know, as much as as you rightfully

1761
01:41:33,439 --> 01:41:36,000
Speaker 1: point out also that humans are so destructive towards animals,

1762
01:41:36,040 --> 01:41:39,080
Speaker 1: I think we have the capacity to do great good

1763
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:42,920
Speaker 1: if we were to you know, prioritize, prioritize doing it.

1764
01:41:43,479 --> 01:41:44,960
Speaker 1: The way that I look at the natural world is

1765
01:41:45,040 --> 01:41:48,200
Speaker 1: like it would be sad for me to change the

1766
01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:50,240
Speaker 1: grizzly bear or I keep saying that that's not the

1767
01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:52,680
Speaker 1: only animal out there. It's like some reason I have

1768
01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:55,720
Speaker 1: a fixation in this conversation on grizzly bears. Um, it

1769
01:41:55,760 --> 01:42:00,200
Speaker 1: would be sad for me to to take that, to

1770
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:02,400
Speaker 1: change an elk from being an elk, or change a

1771
01:42:02,479 --> 01:42:04,360
Speaker 1: deer for being a deer, or a songbird from being

1772
01:42:04,360 --> 01:42:06,880
Speaker 1: a somber. It would be sad for me because I like, like,

1773
01:42:07,560 --> 01:42:10,479
Speaker 1: I want to preserve the way that they are right um,

1774
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:12,120
Speaker 1: and I don't want to adjust them in any way

1775
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:15,080
Speaker 1: to kind of meet any feelings of of of what

1776
01:42:15,200 --> 01:42:18,560
Speaker 1: they should be. And so you see this when you

1777
01:42:18,640 --> 01:42:22,360
Speaker 1: remove apex predators from an environment, right, you see what

1778
01:42:22,520 --> 01:42:25,760
Speaker 1: it does to the prey the prey. Part of an

1779
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:29,000
Speaker 1: elk being an elk is that it has these forces

1780
01:42:29,040 --> 01:42:31,800
Speaker 1: that are fighting against it. Winter kill, we say, And

1781
01:42:32,720 --> 01:42:37,360
Speaker 1: in the wildlife management there's winter kill, there's predation, there's

1782
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:40,679
Speaker 1: all these things that that affect animals. But they also

1783
01:42:40,800 --> 01:42:43,479
Speaker 1: make those animals what they are now. You may argue

1784
01:42:43,479 --> 01:42:47,320
Speaker 1: through history animals are changing based on additioning different conditions

1785
01:42:47,360 --> 01:42:51,560
Speaker 1: and different influences on those animals. But the animals the

1786
01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:54,240
Speaker 1: way that they are now, I kind of feel I

1787
01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:57,160
Speaker 1: would like to preserve that way. Like if I can

1788
01:42:58,040 --> 01:42:59,680
Speaker 1: kill one or two or be a part of the

1789
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:03,519
Speaker 1: man has been of one herd of elk, and that

1790
01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:07,800
Speaker 1: allows those elk to be elk forever, I would be

1791
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:10,200
Speaker 1: happy with that. I wouldn't want to just for the

1792
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 1: sake of not killing them, change what they are, or

1793
01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:15,000
Speaker 1: change their breathing, or force them to be like that.

1794
01:43:15,200 --> 01:43:19,240
Speaker 1: That seems it seems counterintuitive. I think it's I mean,

1795
01:43:19,360 --> 01:43:22,360
Speaker 1: I I don't see that there's not like a rationale

1796
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:25,960
Speaker 1: behind it. It seems that seems sentimental. Frankly, and just

1797
01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:28,240
Speaker 1: to say like I I like, I like to appreciate

1798
01:43:28,280 --> 01:43:29,560
Speaker 1: the elk, and I want the elk to stay the

1799
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:32,640
Speaker 1: way the elk is. It's like it isn't wouldn't there

1800
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:36,759
Speaker 1: be their right to kind of their naturally. I haven't. Again,

1801
01:43:36,800 --> 01:43:38,320
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to just like hone in

1802
01:43:38,360 --> 01:43:40,880
Speaker 1: on only species of hunt. But that's that's my perspective.

1803
01:43:42,280 --> 01:43:44,760
Speaker 1: I don't when I see that, when I see elk,

1804
01:43:45,080 --> 01:43:47,200
Speaker 1: I'm almost a preventionist in the way that I look

1805
01:43:47,200 --> 01:43:49,240
Speaker 1: at wildlife. When I see an elk, or I see

1806
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:52,040
Speaker 1: a bear, or I see a mountain lion, I don't

1807
01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:53,680
Speaker 1: want to go I don't want to change that. I

1808
01:43:53,760 --> 01:43:57,160
Speaker 1: want to preserve its relationship to other animals and to

1809
01:43:57,280 --> 01:44:00,479
Speaker 1: me and my my hunting is a better way to

1810
01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:03,040
Speaker 1: understand all that and be involved in that. And again

1811
01:44:03,120 --> 01:44:06,479
Speaker 1: going back to the value system, you know, admit a

1812
01:44:06,680 --> 01:44:10,240
Speaker 1: value on that animal that's more than just it being there.

1813
01:44:11,040 --> 01:44:12,679
Speaker 1: Like when I kill it, I hang it on my wall,

1814
01:44:12,760 --> 01:44:14,519
Speaker 1: so I so it can be a part of my life,

1815
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:18,439
Speaker 1: it can be a part of my story. Um I eat,

1816
01:44:18,600 --> 01:44:20,559
Speaker 1: I eat it's flesh, so it can be a part

1817
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:23,439
Speaker 1: of feeding my family. And I see that, and I

1818
01:44:23,520 --> 01:44:25,720
Speaker 1: can see how you guys see that as like a

1819
01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:28,840
Speaker 1: barbaric act. I get that, and I understand that that's

1820
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:32,960
Speaker 1: you know, something something that I'll have to and probably

1821
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:35,240
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. Even explained to my son, Hey, look,

1822
01:44:35,920 --> 01:44:38,519
Speaker 1: this is what I've I've done and been doing my

1823
01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:43,400
Speaker 1: basically my whole life. My dad did it, my granddad

1824
01:44:43,439 --> 01:44:46,280
Speaker 1: before him did it. It is as much part of

1825
01:44:46,360 --> 01:44:48,960
Speaker 1: me as anything. But I still that still doesn't give

1826
01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:51,920
Speaker 1: me the right not to rationalize it, not to think

1827
01:44:52,000 --> 01:44:54,560
Speaker 1: it through, not to understand what it means. And so

1828
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:57,360
Speaker 1: in that way, I'm with you, you know, I just

1829
01:44:57,479 --> 01:45:00,439
Speaker 1: like I want to just distinguished between you know, caring

1830
01:45:00,439 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 1: about the individual elk or the individual animal and and

1831
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:06,800
Speaker 1: you know, the continuance of the you know, the elk,

1832
01:45:06,880 --> 01:45:09,759
Speaker 1: the elk that's that's before us today. Isn't thinking about,

1833
01:45:10,120 --> 01:45:11,880
Speaker 1: you know, the continuance of species. It isn't you know,

1834
01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:14,439
Speaker 1: I mean, the scientific the definition of the word species

1835
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:18,320
Speaker 1: is all the individuals who can uh copulate and reproduce

1836
01:45:18,400 --> 01:45:21,000
Speaker 1: viable offspring, like the elk has no no, no, no

1837
01:45:21,160 --> 01:45:23,840
Speaker 1: notion of how many elk live in the world. The

1838
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:28,240
Speaker 1: continuance of of the continued life of future elk like

1839
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:30,679
Speaker 1: the elk isn't thinking about that. So the elk doesn't

1840
01:45:30,960 --> 01:45:34,560
Speaker 1: care or have any consciousness or even thought about the

1841
01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:37,880
Speaker 1: future elk or non elk or other animals or whatever.

1842
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:40,759
Speaker 1: So the you know, so focusing on that elks existence.

1843
01:45:40,800 --> 01:45:42,720
Speaker 1: And I just I think that to just have an

1844
01:45:42,760 --> 01:45:45,960
Speaker 1: attachment to particular species, like I think there's not any

1845
01:45:46,040 --> 01:45:48,560
Speaker 1: species that really matters. The existence or not exists of

1846
01:45:48,600 --> 01:45:51,400
Speaker 1: any species only matters to the extent in my view,

1847
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:54,840
Speaker 1: that it affects the individual, you know, other individuals, so

1848
01:45:54,880 --> 01:45:58,439
Speaker 1: they're sentient life, like the principles of I think you're

1849
01:45:58,439 --> 01:46:00,400
Speaker 1: talking about, like the principles of bide over see, like

1850
01:46:00,720 --> 01:46:04,360
Speaker 1: the natural world needs all types of species working in

1851
01:46:05,240 --> 01:46:07,360
Speaker 1: in concert, even if they don't know it with each other.

1852
01:46:08,160 --> 01:46:10,320
Speaker 1: When in Honey we talk about biodiversity all the time,

1853
01:46:10,320 --> 01:46:12,720
Speaker 1: and that's something that I think the hunting community has

1854
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:15,560
Speaker 1: gotten better at understanding, but still needs, still has some

1855
01:46:15,680 --> 01:46:17,840
Speaker 1: ways to go as understanding. Not only do we care

1856
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:20,360
Speaker 1: about the things that feed our families and the things

1857
01:46:20,439 --> 01:46:22,640
Speaker 1: we go out and take out of the herd and

1858
01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:26,280
Speaker 1: bring home, but all the other things in the these

1859
01:46:26,360 --> 01:46:29,639
Speaker 1: ecosystems that we go out and we removed things from.

1860
01:46:29,680 --> 01:46:32,120
Speaker 1: And I feel very strongly that you know, we were

1861
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:34,720
Speaker 1: talking earlier about harvesting versus killing. We are going out

1862
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:38,800
Speaker 1: into a landscape and removing something that we didn't put there, right,

1863
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:42,360
Speaker 1: So there there is a relationship to that that differs

1864
01:46:42,400 --> 01:46:44,479
Speaker 1: from just going out and looking at through a pair

1865
01:46:44,479 --> 01:46:48,800
Speaker 1: of binoculators, are looking at through any other device. So

1866
01:46:49,880 --> 01:46:52,360
Speaker 1: there's a closeness that I have with with animals that

1867
01:46:52,400 --> 01:46:55,240
Speaker 1: I would posit that most people just don't have. Um.

1868
01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:58,080
Speaker 1: I feel that's a that's an additive to my life,

1869
01:46:58,160 --> 01:47:00,840
Speaker 1: an added it's a way I think about animals. Um.

1870
01:47:01,400 --> 01:47:03,760
Speaker 1: And that's something that hunters always argues, like, guys in

1871
01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:06,280
Speaker 1: your position, there may not be a way for you

1872
01:47:06,400 --> 01:47:10,200
Speaker 1: to kind of understand these animals in the way that

1873
01:47:10,280 --> 01:47:13,160
Speaker 1: I might understand them. And I mean, I just want

1874
01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:16,640
Speaker 1: to get your what's your reaction? I mean, I uh so,

1875
01:47:16,920 --> 01:47:19,640
Speaker 1: so for one thing, UM, I just I would I

1876
01:47:19,640 --> 01:47:20,960
Speaker 1: don't want to conflate. I don't know if you are,

1877
01:47:20,960 --> 01:47:23,040
Speaker 1: but I think people might interpret like a conflation with

1878
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, whatever fulfillment you get out of animals, like

1879
01:47:26,360 --> 01:47:28,639
Speaker 1: that's that's great, And like I get, you know, fulfillment

1880
01:47:28,680 --> 01:47:30,760
Speaker 1: out of my relationship with the dogs downstairs, and that

1881
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:33,960
Speaker 1: sort of a thing. But what's what's important is like,

1882
01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:37,640
Speaker 1: is that an exploitative relationship or is that not? So

1883
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:40,439
Speaker 1: you know, I mean humans who work in a facility

1884
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:43,680
Speaker 1: for for disabled people, they might draw some fulfillment out

1885
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:45,080
Speaker 1: of that, and you know, that might be a fulfilling

1886
01:47:45,120 --> 01:47:47,920
Speaker 1: thing for them due to help those individuals. But but

1887
01:47:48,080 --> 01:47:50,160
Speaker 1: that's not where that conversation starts. You didn't like build

1888
01:47:50,160 --> 01:47:52,240
Speaker 1: a facility and say, okay, let's have this facility for

1889
01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:54,640
Speaker 1: people to help them, and you know, have that be

1890
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:57,639
Speaker 1: the purpose of it was for the betterment of those

1891
01:47:57,800 --> 01:48:00,800
Speaker 1: those humans. So I think that, like, it's great that

1892
01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:02,760
Speaker 1: it makes you feel good and that gives you these

1893
01:48:02,800 --> 01:48:04,960
Speaker 1: the sense of fulfillment in this closeness that you refer to.

1894
01:48:05,280 --> 01:48:07,040
Speaker 1: But I don't think that in and of itself is

1895
01:48:07,120 --> 01:48:10,200
Speaker 1: a no, no, no, not at all. And I think

1896
01:48:10,280 --> 01:48:13,599
Speaker 1: that I think all that really, all that relationship does

1897
01:48:13,720 --> 01:48:17,519
Speaker 1: is make me feel way more intensely that I've got us.

1898
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:20,439
Speaker 1: I've got to earn that, Like I can't just go

1899
01:48:20,600 --> 01:48:24,360
Speaker 1: out and frivously kill animals. I've got to understand the ecosystem.

1900
01:48:24,360 --> 01:48:27,000
Speaker 1: I've got to understand Um, I've got to understand our

1901
01:48:27,040 --> 01:48:31,000
Speaker 1: society and our culture. I've got to understand cohabitation. I've

1902
01:48:31,040 --> 01:48:33,400
Speaker 1: got to understand how an animals body works and what

1903
01:48:33,520 --> 01:48:35,439
Speaker 1: parts of his flesh I can eat and what I can't.

1904
01:48:35,760 --> 01:48:38,280
Speaker 1: I've got to understand conservation, how to make sure that

1905
01:48:38,400 --> 01:48:41,040
Speaker 1: there are the proper amounts of land for the proper

1906
01:48:41,080 --> 01:48:44,439
Speaker 1: amounts of animals. I gotta understand how how many elk

1907
01:48:44,520 --> 01:48:47,280
Speaker 1: do there need to be, how many uh songbirds don't

1908
01:48:47,400 --> 01:48:49,960
Speaker 1: need to be I feel pressure as a hunter to

1909
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:53,640
Speaker 1: understand those things. So, yes, you're right to conflate like

1910
01:48:53,800 --> 01:48:56,080
Speaker 1: to to continue to say like hunting and enriches my life,

1911
01:48:56,439 --> 01:48:58,360
Speaker 1: that's my relationship with this animal. I feel like it's

1912
01:48:58,360 --> 01:49:01,600
Speaker 1: deeper than other people. That's not an inflation of or

1913
01:49:01,720 --> 01:49:05,880
Speaker 1: justification of hunting. That's that's the my honest take on

1914
01:49:06,000 --> 01:49:10,040
Speaker 1: the result of my hunting if and that's just my

1915
01:49:10,120 --> 01:49:12,320
Speaker 1: personal experience. I can't speak for all hunters in that way.

1916
01:49:12,439 --> 01:49:15,560
Speaker 1: My personal experiences I've gone hunting. The killing of the

1917
01:49:15,600 --> 01:49:18,479
Speaker 1: animal is not a fun part for me. I don't

1918
01:49:20,200 --> 01:49:21,760
Speaker 1: I don't jump up and down. In fact, people that

1919
01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:24,679
Speaker 1: know me, I get get really calm when it happens,

1920
01:49:24,880 --> 01:49:26,560
Speaker 1: and I sit over the animal and I think about it.

1921
01:49:26,560 --> 01:49:28,679
Speaker 1: And I say thank you, and I go about my business,

1922
01:49:29,560 --> 01:49:33,479
Speaker 1: and so I do that. Um, but yes, completely agree

1923
01:49:33,520 --> 01:49:37,040
Speaker 1: that I would never conflate anything that happens to me

1924
01:49:37,200 --> 01:49:40,280
Speaker 1: through hunting is some justification for doing it. I'm also

1925
01:49:40,439 --> 01:49:44,120
Speaker 1: trying to think of this thing enriches me, but it

1926
01:49:44,200 --> 01:49:46,960
Speaker 1: does it also do good for the animal, for society,

1927
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:49,320
Speaker 1: and I think society in the way that you guys

1928
01:49:49,439 --> 01:49:52,880
Speaker 1: challenge hunting. It's it's the question is like, is this

1929
01:49:53,080 --> 01:49:55,760
Speaker 1: good for society? Is this good for our collective group?

1930
01:49:56,400 --> 01:49:59,479
Speaker 1: You know, is this killing of animals good for everyone?

1931
01:50:00,439 --> 01:50:02,479
Speaker 1: And to the point where we could say the point

1932
01:50:02,560 --> 01:50:04,760
Speaker 1: where like you or someone else might say no to that,

1933
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:07,439
Speaker 1: I disagree, but I think is that the question? Well,

1934
01:50:07,640 --> 01:50:10,760
Speaker 1: so I think I think that you are you know,

1935
01:50:10,800 --> 01:50:12,799
Speaker 1: I think we're both trying to answer the same question,

1936
01:50:12,920 --> 01:50:15,360
Speaker 1: you know, as you alluded to, and I think there

1937
01:50:15,400 --> 01:50:19,639
Speaker 1: are certain circumstances in a very very immediate term type

1938
01:50:19,680 --> 01:50:22,360
Speaker 1: of sense where it's you know, I think, and I

1939
01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:25,240
Speaker 1: know you've made the point that people who hunt care

1940
01:50:25,280 --> 01:50:27,120
Speaker 1: more about animals and people who don't hunch. I think

1941
01:50:27,320 --> 01:50:29,640
Speaker 1: reverencing referencing people who eat. Yeah, I don't want to

1942
01:50:29,640 --> 01:50:30,880
Speaker 1: put it that I don't want to put it that way.

1943
01:50:30,920 --> 01:50:32,360
Speaker 1: I think I know it. Yeah, I was gonna clarify.

1944
01:50:32,360 --> 01:50:33,880
Speaker 1: I think you mean like people who eat factory farm

1945
01:50:33,920 --> 01:50:36,880
Speaker 1: animals and don't don't like you said we were saying

1946
01:50:36,920 --> 01:50:39,000
Speaker 1: earlier at lunch, And I think this is a good

1947
01:50:39,040 --> 01:50:42,120
Speaker 1: point to be made that if I were one questions like,

1948
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:44,360
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get you to go hunt with me,

1949
01:50:45,280 --> 01:50:46,960
Speaker 1: and I probably are. I'm probably not going to go

1950
01:50:47,400 --> 01:50:49,320
Speaker 1: to an animal rights right, actually I might do that.

1951
01:50:49,840 --> 01:50:53,800
Speaker 1: Who knows, UM, we're not going to get there. But

1952
01:50:54,320 --> 01:50:55,920
Speaker 1: one thing I would ask of you, and I'm asking

1953
01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:57,560
Speaker 1: this of you. I'm not telling you just said you

1954
01:50:57,600 --> 01:50:59,800
Speaker 1: should feel I'm saying, like, if if someone was gonna

1955
01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:02,000
Speaker 1: eat me, do you feel that hunting is a better

1956
01:51:02,120 --> 01:51:05,759
Speaker 1: way than all the other ways. I that's a tricky

1957
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:08,240
Speaker 1: question because I think, like all the concerns that you raise,

1958
01:51:08,280 --> 01:51:12,839
Speaker 1: you know, it probably is pretty pretty pretty certainly actually

1959
01:51:13,120 --> 01:51:17,400
Speaker 1: causes less immediate term suffering. There are some complicated questions around, um,

1960
01:51:17,760 --> 01:51:20,479
Speaker 1: when you kind of normalize animal use, so so you know,

1961
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:23,240
Speaker 1: in another context, you have these companies like Whole Foods

1962
01:51:23,280 --> 01:51:25,479
Speaker 1: that that to out everything is humane and make people

1963
01:51:25,479 --> 01:51:28,120
Speaker 1: feel really good about consuming animals and in some ways

1964
01:51:28,160 --> 01:51:29,720
Speaker 1: like maybe their farms are a tiny bit and I

1965
01:51:29,800 --> 01:51:32,280
Speaker 1: do mean a tiny bit better. Um, But at the

1966
01:51:32,320 --> 01:51:33,760
Speaker 1: same time, it's it's kind of I think there is

1967
01:51:34,200 --> 01:51:37,479
Speaker 1: a harm done in terms of making people feel good

1968
01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:40,760
Speaker 1: about you know, an idea, ideology that that you know

1969
01:51:41,040 --> 01:51:42,439
Speaker 1: abottom line, at the end of the day, we want

1970
01:51:42,479 --> 01:51:45,639
Speaker 1: to see overthrown. And so I mean, I think you're

1971
01:51:45,720 --> 01:51:48,519
Speaker 1: certainly correct, You're certainly more thoughtful than the average person,

1972
01:51:48,600 --> 01:51:52,639
Speaker 1: and you're certainly causing less harm less suffering towards animals

1973
01:51:52,720 --> 01:51:55,720
Speaker 1: than the average person on the street. So um, you know,

1974
01:51:55,880 --> 01:51:58,800
Speaker 1: it's it's a complicated, it's a complicated thing. But I mean,

1975
01:51:58,880 --> 01:52:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, we're in turn of opposing factory farm you

1976
01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:05,599
Speaker 1: know where you know A long ways When I when

1977
01:52:05,600 --> 01:52:08,479
Speaker 1: I see let's see the documentars on factory farms, and

1978
01:52:08,520 --> 01:52:10,080
Speaker 1: you see something even in some of the videos I've

1979
01:52:10,080 --> 01:52:12,760
Speaker 1: seen that you guys have produced, you just don't I

1980
01:52:12,840 --> 01:52:18,839
Speaker 1: don't feel I feel cheated, man. I feel like society

1981
01:52:18,960 --> 01:52:21,880
Speaker 1: wants to to cheat me and trick me, like it

1982
01:52:22,000 --> 01:52:25,559
Speaker 1: wants to present this reality that isn't true. I feel

1983
01:52:26,240 --> 01:52:30,080
Speaker 1: I don't know where it began. I haven't looked. But

1984
01:52:30,200 --> 01:52:32,360
Speaker 1: I don't feel as though the drive through with Chick

1985
01:52:32,439 --> 01:52:35,519
Speaker 1: fil A wants to present me with the reality. I

1986
01:52:35,560 --> 01:52:37,320
Speaker 1: feel like it wants to just sell me. It's wears,

1987
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:39,479
Speaker 1: And we were talking about it earlier. So it seems

1988
01:52:39,479 --> 01:52:41,439
Speaker 1: silly to me to put a cartoon chicken on a

1989
01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:44,280
Speaker 1: bag with a dead chicken in it. I mean, it

1990
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:48,479
Speaker 1: doesn't It seems silly. So I I just feel as

1991
01:52:48,520 --> 01:52:51,920
Speaker 1: you feel. I'm sure that is this a disingenuous nature

1992
01:52:51,960 --> 01:52:56,200
Speaker 1: to the way that our industries, factory farms and others

1993
01:52:56,320 --> 01:53:00,760
Speaker 1: present the reality of these situations? And and how could

1994
01:53:00,800 --> 01:53:04,160
Speaker 1: you be in that situation conveniently forget to make sure

1995
01:53:04,200 --> 01:53:07,639
Speaker 1: everyone understood that there's a dead chicken in that bag,

1996
01:53:08,000 --> 01:53:10,880
Speaker 1: you know, And so what's what's the rationale for that?

1997
01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:12,920
Speaker 1: I feel? I feel the rationale is more people will

1998
01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:15,000
Speaker 1: buy the chicken sandwich if they're not connecting it to

1999
01:53:15,080 --> 01:53:17,479
Speaker 1: a dead chicken. Yeah, it's I mean, you you just

2000
01:53:17,560 --> 01:53:20,240
Speaker 1: look at kind of like what's what's normalized around people?

2001
01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:22,080
Speaker 1: And they, you know, the same people if they saw

2002
01:53:22,160 --> 01:53:23,840
Speaker 1: what was going on inside of chickil A Farms, they

2003
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:27,760
Speaker 1: they'd be totally put off by it. And then you know,

2004
01:53:27,920 --> 01:53:30,040
Speaker 1: maybe that caused them to change, or maybe they kind

2005
01:53:30,080 --> 01:53:31,760
Speaker 1: of forget about it a few hours later, and the

2006
01:53:31,840 --> 01:53:34,680
Speaker 1: whole the rest of the world is continues to to

2007
01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:36,320
Speaker 1: normalize it. So you end up with a lot of

2008
01:53:37,000 --> 01:53:39,640
Speaker 1: good people participating in some some bad stuff. Yeah, and

2009
01:53:39,720 --> 01:53:42,080
Speaker 1: there's there there, there's a self destructive nature, I think,

2010
01:53:42,120 --> 01:53:46,240
Speaker 1: to humanity. And and we we have taken over the

2011
01:53:46,320 --> 01:53:48,960
Speaker 1: last part four decades, we've taken cigarettes and made them,

2012
01:53:49,320 --> 01:53:51,320
Speaker 1: you know, and out at them and said, look look

2013
01:53:51,360 --> 01:53:53,800
Speaker 1: at what this is. Cigarettes is not good for you.

2014
01:53:54,040 --> 01:53:57,960
Speaker 1: They are not good for you. The the the tobacco

2015
01:53:58,080 --> 01:54:02,720
Speaker 1: industry has been deceiving you intentionally for decades. But even then,

2016
01:54:03,080 --> 01:54:05,400
Speaker 1: even after all that, even after forcing them to put

2017
01:54:05,640 --> 01:54:09,479
Speaker 1: pictures of decaying lungs on their product, people are still

2018
01:54:09,600 --> 01:54:13,000
Speaker 1: hitting the hitting the East sick in twenty nine. And

2019
01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:17,719
Speaker 1: so there's something about there's something about that intentional deception

2020
01:54:19,160 --> 01:54:21,960
Speaker 1: of the of of like an industry or industrial nature

2021
01:54:22,320 --> 01:54:25,639
Speaker 1: that is always going to work on on some people

2022
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:28,600
Speaker 1: enough to make it worth it for that industry to

2023
01:54:28,760 --> 01:54:32,040
Speaker 1: see you. It seems, um you go to the line

2024
01:54:32,080 --> 01:54:33,440
Speaker 1: that you can see the line of Chick fil A's

2025
01:54:33,440 --> 01:54:37,720
Speaker 1: out the door, you know. Um, And so Yeah, I

2026
01:54:37,760 --> 01:54:40,360
Speaker 1: mean that we agree on that all day. I my

2027
01:54:40,760 --> 01:54:44,920
Speaker 1: my values around animals are always shifting and changing, and

2028
01:54:45,000 --> 01:54:48,360
Speaker 1: I'm always having to go back and think about why

2029
01:54:48,400 --> 01:54:50,600
Speaker 1: am I killing this thing, what am I doing with it?

2030
01:54:51,280 --> 01:54:53,600
Speaker 1: How can I do that better? So I guess for

2031
01:54:53,760 --> 01:54:56,840
Speaker 1: for folks that are that are there and watching them

2032
01:54:57,520 --> 01:54:59,920
Speaker 1: watched this whole time, I would say that that part

2033
01:55:00,080 --> 01:55:02,720
Speaker 1: of why this podcast exists. And I think part of

2034
01:55:03,680 --> 01:55:07,240
Speaker 1: the new generation of hunters that I've seen part of

2035
01:55:07,280 --> 01:55:09,440
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do is understand ethically and morally

2036
01:55:09,560 --> 01:55:13,880
Speaker 1: what we're doing. We're in generation generations before us that

2037
01:55:14,000 --> 01:55:16,520
Speaker 1: wasn't there as much. Honey was a thing we always

2038
01:55:16,560 --> 01:55:19,720
Speaker 1: did and it was accepted. I think now we're starting

2039
01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:22,560
Speaker 1: to question more. I think that leads to this conversation. Yeah,

2040
01:55:22,680 --> 01:55:25,160
Speaker 1: it's certainly good that those questions are being raised, and

2041
01:55:25,280 --> 01:55:28,320
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, I mean, to me, there's

2042
01:55:28,320 --> 01:55:31,160
Speaker 1: so there's this question there that it's you know, what

2043
01:55:32,680 --> 01:55:34,960
Speaker 1: what what what? What is this this trait of that

2044
01:55:35,120 --> 01:55:37,240
Speaker 1: that you know, we wouldn't we would never justify, you know,

2045
01:55:37,520 --> 01:55:41,040
Speaker 1: humans are overpopulated, and so we're going to you know,

2046
01:55:42,080 --> 01:55:44,560
Speaker 1: we're we're gonna we're just gonna just gonna shoot him down,

2047
01:55:44,640 --> 01:55:46,040
Speaker 1: like hey, this is all this is the best we

2048
01:55:46,080 --> 01:55:48,160
Speaker 1: can do whereby you know, that is what we say

2049
01:55:48,200 --> 01:55:51,600
Speaker 1: with animals and even look at um, you know, even

2050
01:55:51,640 --> 01:55:53,680
Speaker 1: people who who are who are putting a lot more

2051
01:55:53,720 --> 01:55:56,200
Speaker 1: thought into it than than than than most you know,

2052
01:55:56,360 --> 01:55:58,720
Speaker 1: most of the rest of the world is um. You know,

2053
01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:00,640
Speaker 1: there is this species is m where you're looking at

2054
01:56:00,680 --> 01:56:02,680
Speaker 1: them as an object, as a means of entertainment. I mean,

2055
01:56:02,720 --> 01:56:04,680
Speaker 1: you look at something like bow hunting in general, Like

2056
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:08,320
Speaker 1: even if we said like okay, let's just you know grant, okay,

2057
01:56:08,360 --> 01:56:10,880
Speaker 1: they the best thing to do is to kill off

2058
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:14,560
Speaker 1: these animals, you know, this animal right here, like you

2059
01:56:14,640 --> 01:56:16,600
Speaker 1: know why you do this bow hunting thing where you

2060
01:56:16,680 --> 01:56:19,640
Speaker 1: have like blood tracking and in many instances where you're

2061
01:56:19,640 --> 01:56:21,200
Speaker 1: like chasing down for days and it just seems like

2062
01:56:21,240 --> 01:56:23,280
Speaker 1: you're trying to like make this like fun little human

2063
01:56:23,320 --> 01:56:25,480
Speaker 1: game out of it, this human centered thing game out

2064
01:56:25,520 --> 01:56:27,720
Speaker 1: of it, instead of just saying like, Okay, if you've

2065
01:56:27,760 --> 01:56:29,240
Speaker 1: come to that place, which is a huge if that

2066
01:56:29,280 --> 01:56:30,760
Speaker 1: you have to kill these animals, you need to do it,

2067
01:56:30,840 --> 01:56:33,080
Speaker 1: and it is this most efficient way possible. Yeah, we

2068
01:56:33,200 --> 01:56:34,440
Speaker 1: talk about that a lot of the time we talk

2069
01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:38,160
Speaker 1: about an argument, we talk about fair chase right. And

2070
01:56:38,280 --> 01:56:41,480
Speaker 1: I'm been open on this podcast in past episodes of

2071
01:56:41,560 --> 01:56:45,240
Speaker 1: talking about fair chase right, is fair to fair to what? Like?

2072
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:48,200
Speaker 1: We you know, there's there's there's a lot of oxymoronic

2073
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:50,800
Speaker 1: things that go on with this this topic in general.

2074
01:56:50,880 --> 01:56:53,440
Speaker 1: And I will say before I get to that, we

2075
01:56:53,560 --> 01:56:57,440
Speaker 1: have archery seasons, so so more people can go hunting,

2076
01:56:57,720 --> 01:57:01,200
Speaker 1: they can hunt longer. Right with with archery tackle, your

2077
01:57:01,640 --> 01:57:04,440
Speaker 1: efficiency is going to be lower. And that's how state

2078
01:57:04,520 --> 01:57:07,760
Speaker 1: game agencies, state governments, and even the federal government get

2079
01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:10,160
Speaker 1: into how do we have an archery season than a

2080
01:57:10,200 --> 01:57:12,520
Speaker 1: muzzle other season, which is which is a less efficient

2081
01:57:12,560 --> 01:57:15,880
Speaker 1: firearm than a high powered center fire rifle. So we

2082
01:57:16,040 --> 01:57:19,480
Speaker 1: have different levels of hunting to allow for us to say,

2083
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:22,880
Speaker 1: the state game agencies and the and the state governments

2084
01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:25,240
Speaker 1: will go in and say, okay, Colorado, you can kill

2085
01:57:25,280 --> 01:57:27,400
Speaker 1: this many elk? Can this unit? This many el can

2086
01:57:27,440 --> 01:57:30,280
Speaker 1: this unit? They do that through population surveys and other things,

2087
01:57:31,160 --> 01:57:34,480
Speaker 1: harvest surveys from hunters as well. So they do those things,

2088
01:57:34,960 --> 01:57:36,760
Speaker 1: they identify how many elk they can kill, and then

2089
01:57:36,760 --> 01:57:39,960
Speaker 1: they allot those elk per season. Right, so that's human center.

2090
01:57:40,080 --> 01:57:42,080
Speaker 1: It's not it's all No. I would say it's most

2091
01:57:42,120 --> 01:57:44,880
Speaker 1: definitely human center, but it's also animal centered. It's centered

2092
01:57:44,920 --> 01:57:47,440
Speaker 1: around We're not doing that because we like bows and

2093
01:57:47,560 --> 01:57:50,520
Speaker 1: we like guns. We're doing that because we do want

2094
01:57:50,880 --> 01:57:53,800
Speaker 1: the most hunting opportunity. We don't like. Hunters don't see

2095
01:57:53,840 --> 01:57:55,760
Speaker 1: it the way that that you guys see it, So

2096
01:57:55,760 --> 01:57:56,960
Speaker 1: we don't see it as a bad thing. So we

2097
01:57:57,040 --> 01:58:01,160
Speaker 1: think more hunting opportunity the better, right, But there is

2098
01:58:01,280 --> 01:58:03,800
Speaker 1: I mean, and I've said this on this podcast in

2099
01:58:03,880 --> 01:58:07,680
Speaker 1: recent weeks, there is an issue with the hypothesis saying, hey,

2100
01:58:08,160 --> 01:58:09,920
Speaker 1: I want the meat. Well, if you want to me,

2101
01:58:09,960 --> 01:58:11,440
Speaker 1: why don't you just go get in the most efficient

2102
01:58:11,480 --> 01:58:16,320
Speaker 1: way possible. So I'm not I'm really probably not in

2103
01:58:16,400 --> 01:58:18,960
Speaker 1: a place just just totally disagree with you there. But

2104
01:58:19,520 --> 01:58:24,120
Speaker 1: at the same time, we have there's a million things

2105
01:58:24,200 --> 01:58:26,879
Speaker 1: you can do as as a hunter in the experience

2106
01:58:26,880 --> 01:58:29,440
Speaker 1: of hunting before you get to the killing that doesn't

2107
01:58:29,680 --> 01:58:32,280
Speaker 1: seem to make sense or that doesn't seem to to

2108
01:58:32,400 --> 01:58:34,120
Speaker 1: get up to the killing part. And so what I

2109
01:58:34,280 --> 01:58:37,040
Speaker 1: argue generally is not fair. Chase, I'm not trying to

2110
01:58:37,080 --> 01:58:39,720
Speaker 1: be fair to the animal in my pursuit of the animal.

2111
01:58:39,920 --> 01:58:42,400
Speaker 1: I want to kill it as efficiently as humanly possible.

2112
01:58:43,080 --> 01:58:44,880
Speaker 1: In the pursuit of the animal, which is oftentimes a

2113
01:58:44,960 --> 01:58:48,440
Speaker 1: very hard thing to do. I'm thinking in different terms

2114
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:50,600
Speaker 1: than when I get to the actual killing of it.

2115
01:58:51,440 --> 01:58:53,440
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of if I just wanted to kill animals,

2116
01:58:53,480 --> 01:58:55,040
Speaker 1: I'd find animals on the side of the road and

2117
01:58:55,120 --> 01:58:56,640
Speaker 1: to shoot him and put them back in my truck,

2118
01:58:56,680 --> 01:58:58,040
Speaker 1: cut them up and eat him, if that's all I

2119
01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:01,840
Speaker 1: was there to do. There's other benefits that I tell

2120
01:59:02,560 --> 01:59:04,960
Speaker 1: that mean a lot to me, And as I said,

2121
01:59:05,000 --> 01:59:08,040
Speaker 1: that's humans. Those are human centered things. But at the

2122
01:59:08,120 --> 01:59:09,720
Speaker 1: end of the day, I can sit back and go, Okay,

2123
01:59:10,360 --> 01:59:14,120
Speaker 1: that question is is this thing I'm doing good? Right?

2124
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:16,560
Speaker 1: It's good for me? Yes, Personally, it's good for me.

2125
01:59:16,720 --> 01:59:18,720
Speaker 1: It's great for me, and it has done things in

2126
01:59:18,800 --> 01:59:22,160
Speaker 1: my life that no one could understand. I imagine that

2127
01:59:22,600 --> 01:59:24,919
Speaker 1: that isn't that hasn't been with me for those experiences.

2128
01:59:25,680 --> 01:59:27,160
Speaker 1: So you have that part it has. It has been

2129
01:59:27,200 --> 01:59:28,560
Speaker 1: good for me. It's not good for my family. It's

2130
01:59:28,600 --> 01:59:31,480
Speaker 1: fed him a lot than they love it. Um, has

2131
01:59:31,520 --> 01:59:34,200
Speaker 1: it done good for the animal? Yeah? I mean there's

2132
01:59:34,240 --> 01:59:37,080
Speaker 1: more wild turkeys, there's more elk, there's more deer, there's

2133
01:59:37,120 --> 01:59:41,880
Speaker 1: more Mallard ducks than than a hundred years. But I

2134
01:59:41,960 --> 01:59:43,760
Speaker 1: think that the whole like notion of like the further

2135
01:59:43,840 --> 01:59:46,280
Speaker 1: who was species is also human centered because they think, again,

2136
01:59:46,720 --> 01:59:49,360
Speaker 1: the Mallard duck doesn't think how many more Mallard ducks?

2137
01:59:49,440 --> 01:59:51,480
Speaker 1: I mean, why wouldn't they think how many more ducks?

2138
01:59:51,560 --> 01:59:53,440
Speaker 1: Why don't they think how many more animals? Why wouldn't

2139
01:59:53,440 --> 01:59:55,760
Speaker 1: they you know, like the Mallard duck, The individual Mallard

2140
01:59:55,840 --> 02:00:00,880
Speaker 1: duck doesn't well yeah, yeah, the individual Mallard duck doesn't.

2141
02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:04,480
Speaker 1: But that individual Mallard duck also doesn't understand that it

2142
02:00:04,560 --> 02:00:08,960
Speaker 1: needs other Mallard ducks. It needs nests, it needs wetlands,

2143
02:00:09,480 --> 02:00:12,760
Speaker 1: it needs the prairie pothole region. And we as humans,

2144
02:00:12,800 --> 02:00:14,960
Speaker 1: because we are different than the duck, can go and say, hey,

2145
02:00:15,000 --> 02:00:17,920
Speaker 1: what does that duck? We have organizations the Duck's Unlimited

2146
02:00:18,600 --> 02:00:22,280
Speaker 1: Um and Rocky Mount Nulk Foundation that are there to say, okay,

2147
02:00:22,360 --> 02:00:24,920
Speaker 1: what does that Even though I'm a hunter and I'm

2148
02:00:25,360 --> 02:00:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm out to when i'm hunting kill them, what can

2149
02:00:28,120 --> 02:00:31,280
Speaker 1: I do to make sure that we maintain this? Not

2150
02:00:31,560 --> 02:00:33,800
Speaker 1: just that individual duck. And again, I think this is

2151
02:00:33,840 --> 02:00:35,920
Speaker 1: where we will continue kind of bounce off each other.

2152
02:00:36,720 --> 02:00:39,920
Speaker 1: Not that individual duck. That individual duck matters, but it

2153
02:00:40,000 --> 02:00:43,120
Speaker 1: only matters as part of that whole because that because

2154
02:00:43,160 --> 02:00:46,400
Speaker 1: those species matter to the ecosystem, that ecosystem matters to

2155
02:00:46,480 --> 02:00:49,640
Speaker 1: the greater ecosystem. And if we can take care of

2156
02:00:49,680 --> 02:00:52,720
Speaker 1: those individual species and those individual habitats in a way

2157
02:00:52,800 --> 02:00:56,200
Speaker 1: that we'll make a whole lot of sense, then we're

2158
02:00:56,200 --> 02:00:58,240
Speaker 1: gonna be will we just find these animals will be

2159
02:00:58,320 --> 02:01:01,160
Speaker 1: just fine, and we'll have taken the thing that enriches us.

2160
02:01:01,280 --> 02:01:04,640
Speaker 1: The human center part will have participated in that. But

2161
02:01:04,840 --> 02:01:08,320
Speaker 1: only if, if, and only if the human center part

2162
02:01:08,520 --> 02:01:12,360
Speaker 1: also benefits the greater population of animals. And that's that's

2163
02:01:12,440 --> 02:01:15,520
Speaker 1: that's I think the concept of hunting and we'll I

2164
02:01:15,600 --> 02:01:18,160
Speaker 1: think we know where we just don't line up there. Yeah,

2165
02:01:18,320 --> 02:01:20,840
Speaker 1: So so I think like that that's moving us in

2166
02:01:20,920 --> 02:01:23,360
Speaker 1: a good direction. Though, so it's not you know, the

2167
02:01:24,040 --> 02:01:26,920
Speaker 1: greatest goods. So basically like kind of this net sum

2168
02:01:27,080 --> 02:01:30,520
Speaker 1: of maximum kind of well being in happiness and minimum

2169
02:01:30,720 --> 02:01:33,760
Speaker 1: kind of suffering, whether that means zero mallards or a

2170
02:01:33,840 --> 02:01:36,360
Speaker 1: billion mallards, like whatever, that net sum is like, that's

2171
02:01:36,400 --> 02:01:41,040
Speaker 1: what we're kind of after and to me, um, you

2172
02:01:41,120 --> 02:01:43,720
Speaker 1: know again, it's just it's always been the case that

2173
02:01:43,760 --> 02:01:46,360
Speaker 1: when you elevate the a class of individuals, you know,

2174
02:01:46,720 --> 02:01:49,360
Speaker 1: the rights of the individual within that that that the

2175
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:51,880
Speaker 1: entire class of an individuals on the whole has been

2176
02:01:51,960 --> 02:01:54,760
Speaker 1: better off. So I don't see you know, an argument

2177
02:01:55,240 --> 02:01:57,160
Speaker 1: I mean, number one, an argument where it's not logically

2178
02:01:57,240 --> 02:02:00,280
Speaker 1: consistent to did you know, to do we deny rights

2179
02:02:00,320 --> 02:02:02,320
Speaker 1: to humans that we don't give to other animals? And

2180
02:02:02,400 --> 02:02:04,280
Speaker 1: number two like why if we did do that, why

2181
02:02:04,320 --> 02:02:06,400
Speaker 1: it wouldn't follow the same results that we've seen with

2182
02:02:06,520 --> 02:02:09,320
Speaker 1: all these movements throughout history were like you know, nobody's

2183
02:02:09,320 --> 02:02:10,920
Speaker 1: saying like, oh, we should go back and you know,

2184
02:02:11,160 --> 02:02:13,640
Speaker 1: remove rights from X, y Z individual. Like I don't

2185
02:02:13,680 --> 02:02:16,440
Speaker 1: see a world where we have animal personhood, where where

2186
02:02:16,560 --> 02:02:19,040
Speaker 1: there's just not a massive improvement in the overall well

2187
02:02:19,120 --> 02:02:21,360
Speaker 1: being of life on earth. Like I said in the

2188
02:02:21,480 --> 02:02:25,040
Speaker 1: very beginning, like it's weighty for for any movement to change.

2189
02:02:25,720 --> 02:02:28,560
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a would be if twenty years

2190
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:30,680
Speaker 1: from now we're animal personhood is a thing that would

2191
02:02:30,680 --> 02:02:33,480
Speaker 1: be a huge, huge sea change in our culture and

2192
02:02:33,560 --> 02:02:36,640
Speaker 1: society and our humanity. Uh, it would be, it would

2193
02:02:36,640 --> 02:02:38,680
Speaker 1: be monumental, will be probably one of the biggest changes

2194
02:02:38,720 --> 02:02:42,080
Speaker 1: in our species ever. Um. And so that's I mean,

2195
02:02:42,600 --> 02:02:44,320
Speaker 1: you know, I can said, actually be like prove that,

2196
02:02:45,560 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 1: but I don't want to do that. I don't I

2197
02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:49,080
Speaker 1: want to give the idea of the credence that I

2198
02:02:49,120 --> 02:02:51,040
Speaker 1: think it deserves, which is that that that there's a

2199
02:02:51,040 --> 02:02:52,320
Speaker 1: lot of people that believe it. There's a lot of

2200
02:02:52,320 --> 02:02:55,840
Speaker 1: people that that fight for it. And and to Joe's point,

2201
02:02:55,920 --> 02:02:57,240
Speaker 1: Joe and I talked about this all the time, and

2202
02:02:57,280 --> 02:02:58,800
Speaker 1: I talked about with all a lot of other people.

2203
02:02:58,840 --> 02:03:04,480
Speaker 1: I believe I truly leave the humans are consumption engines,

2204
02:03:05,000 --> 02:03:07,960
Speaker 1: Like most beings on this earth are consumption set of ends.

2205
02:03:08,040 --> 02:03:12,160
Speaker 1: We were born into this world to consume things. There's

2206
02:03:12,200 --> 02:03:14,120
Speaker 1: nothing we can do about it, like if we if

2207
02:03:14,160 --> 02:03:17,560
Speaker 1: we stop consuming, we die, And so we know that

2208
02:03:17,840 --> 02:03:19,600
Speaker 1: and we know that's the same for animals. We know

2209
02:03:19,680 --> 02:03:21,960
Speaker 1: that's the same for for most beings on this planet

2210
02:03:22,040 --> 02:03:26,360
Speaker 1: that they consume. And so I give all vegans respect

2211
02:03:26,400 --> 02:03:28,000
Speaker 1: and I would give you respect to the thing that

2212
02:03:28,120 --> 02:03:30,080
Speaker 1: like if if we're all looking at how we consume

2213
02:03:30,160 --> 02:03:33,640
Speaker 1: and we're being critical of it, and then I think

2214
02:03:33,720 --> 02:03:38,600
Speaker 1: that's that's that's being progressively good, like just saying I

2215
02:03:38,760 --> 02:03:41,360
Speaker 1: really got to figure out this consumption thing because I

2216
02:03:41,400 --> 02:03:43,560
Speaker 1: can't get around it. I can't stop consuming, but I

2217
02:03:43,600 --> 02:03:46,400
Speaker 1: could maybe better consume, you know, And I think generationally

2218
02:03:46,440 --> 02:03:47,960
Speaker 1: I want my kid to think like that. I went

2219
02:03:48,040 --> 02:03:50,400
Speaker 1: in to think, how can I better consume? How can

2220
02:03:50,440 --> 02:03:52,800
Speaker 1: I better treat animals? How can I better understand what

2221
02:03:52,880 --> 02:03:56,280
Speaker 1: animals are, what I am, my balance with them, like

2222
02:03:56,360 --> 02:03:58,560
Speaker 1: scept my argument where where we differ? My argument is

2223
02:03:58,600 --> 02:04:00,480
Speaker 1: hunting has helped me do that, But could see how

2224
02:04:00,520 --> 02:04:03,400
Speaker 1: people would would wonder why that is? Um, And so

2225
02:04:04,400 --> 02:04:06,720
Speaker 1: I think my podcast and these conversations are just like

2226
02:04:06,800 --> 02:04:09,680
Speaker 1: a journey to be able to better articulate that. I

2227
02:04:09,760 --> 02:04:11,960
Speaker 1: think you're challenging me in ways, and me challenging you

2228
02:04:12,080 --> 02:04:14,560
Speaker 1: in ways will help us better articulate our beliefs later on.

2229
02:04:14,880 --> 02:04:18,840
Speaker 1: And um, if if, if this, and only if that

2230
02:04:19,000 --> 02:04:20,560
Speaker 1: and only that is what comes to this podcast. I

2231
02:04:20,640 --> 02:04:22,600
Speaker 1: think that's great, But I think probably more came from

2232
02:04:22,640 --> 02:04:26,520
Speaker 1: with than that. Yeah, absolutely cool. Well, I think, um,

2233
02:04:27,720 --> 02:04:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, I really want to elevate I think for

2234
02:04:29,440 --> 02:04:32,280
Speaker 1: your audience for ours, like I mean in alignment in

2235
02:04:32,320 --> 02:04:35,800
Speaker 1: opposition to factory farming is is something that that you know,

2236
02:04:35,840 --> 02:04:38,000
Speaker 1: I'd encourage people to get involved with. I think there's

2237
02:04:38,480 --> 02:04:41,840
Speaker 1: it's just undeniable that it's you know, frankly about it

2238
02:04:41,880 --> 02:04:44,920
Speaker 1: is unethical industry is could possibly exist animal agriculture. I mean,

2239
02:04:44,960 --> 02:04:47,760
Speaker 1: what's happening to animals, what it's doing the environment, even

2240
02:04:47,920 --> 02:04:50,600
Speaker 1: even to human health. Um So I think that'd be

2241
02:04:50,680 --> 02:04:52,680
Speaker 1: a you know, I think for people to look into.

2242
02:04:53,080 --> 02:04:55,480
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I think that. I think that is is

2243
02:04:55,560 --> 02:04:57,520
Speaker 1: big of an impact as that has on our world

2244
02:04:57,720 --> 02:04:59,880
Speaker 1: and who we are. You better damn we'll be looking

2245
02:04:59,920 --> 02:05:01,920
Speaker 1: at do it. You can't turn a blind eye to it,

2246
02:05:02,000 --> 02:05:04,600
Speaker 1: even if you don't agree with what Matt's saying. If

2247
02:05:04,640 --> 02:05:07,320
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, but and you have a you have

2248
02:05:07,400 --> 02:05:09,440
Speaker 1: a bunch of retorts, and you think factory farming is

2249
02:05:09,520 --> 02:05:11,880
Speaker 1: useful and there's there's humane ways to do it. Yeah,

2250
02:05:12,240 --> 02:05:15,200
Speaker 1: I'm with you, okay, But you gotta look into it, man,

2251
02:05:15,640 --> 02:05:18,520
Speaker 1: You have to. You cannot turn away from it. You

2252
02:05:18,640 --> 02:05:21,680
Speaker 1: can't eat that bag of chicken and not be thinking

2253
02:05:21,720 --> 02:05:25,680
Speaker 1: about You can't. And and we all we all have

2254
02:05:25,760 --> 02:05:27,840
Speaker 1: our things. Man, Like I said, I'll rip out a

2255
02:05:27,920 --> 02:05:31,120
Speaker 1: nice chicken sandwich. In the airport like as good as anybody.

2256
02:05:31,840 --> 02:05:35,440
Speaker 1: But I'm always understanding of of I gotta get better.

2257
02:05:35,720 --> 02:05:37,840
Speaker 1: There's there's ways that I can consume that they're better

2258
02:05:37,880 --> 02:05:40,560
Speaker 1: than this, and hunting has been one of hopefully the

2259
02:05:40,640 --> 02:05:43,200
Speaker 1: many vehicles for me to do that. But but but yeah,

2260
02:05:43,360 --> 02:05:47,800
Speaker 1: looking like you know, direct action everywhere, Like there's I

2261
02:05:48,160 --> 02:05:52,560
Speaker 1: watched all the videos, you know, I all the ones

2262
02:05:52,600 --> 02:05:54,160
Speaker 1: that we're on there. I watched them all because I

2263
02:05:54,160 --> 02:05:56,920
Speaker 1: just wanted to see, you know what in two and

2264
02:05:56,960 --> 02:06:00,880
Speaker 1: I will admit to having like me, you guys and

2265
02:06:01,000 --> 02:06:03,880
Speaker 1: putting a face to your organization and putting a conversation

2266
02:06:03,920 --> 02:06:06,160
Speaker 1: and ideas to it has helped me not to like

2267
02:06:06,280 --> 02:06:10,040
Speaker 1: see those videos and we're gonna look at those extremists

2268
02:06:10,240 --> 02:06:13,000
Speaker 1: run around with chickens. It's like, it's not it's not that, man,

2269
02:06:13,400 --> 02:06:15,320
Speaker 1: it's not that. So those who are listening to this

2270
02:06:15,360 --> 02:06:19,480
Speaker 1: podcast that that may want to label Matt or or

2271
02:06:19,720 --> 02:06:22,360
Speaker 1: you know, those that are listening on d x c

2272
02:06:22,520 --> 02:06:25,320
Speaker 1: s the thing you want to label me, I would

2273
02:06:25,360 --> 02:06:28,360
Speaker 1: just encourage you to listen to the conversation's totality takes

2274
02:06:28,360 --> 02:06:30,280
Speaker 1: someone away from it. You go about your freaking day

2275
02:06:30,560 --> 02:06:42,240
Speaker 1: like you can learn something from this, I promise you. Robert.

2276
02:06:42,280 --> 02:06:44,760
Speaker 1: How's it going, Hey man, it's good to see it,

2277
02:06:44,800 --> 02:06:47,520
Speaker 1: good to be here. Yeah, it's good to meet you too.

2278
02:06:47,600 --> 02:06:51,160
Speaker 1: I have been reading a lot about you and watching

2279
02:06:51,200 --> 02:06:54,600
Speaker 1: some of your videos and and going deep into the

2280
02:06:55,120 --> 02:07:00,160
Speaker 1: category of veganism. And we were just talking about four

2281
02:07:00,160 --> 02:07:03,280
Speaker 1: we hit record. I'm I'm fresh off the heels of

2282
02:07:03,440 --> 02:07:08,080
Speaker 1: an interview with Matt Johnson from Direct Action Everywhere learning

2283
02:07:08,080 --> 02:07:12,400
Speaker 1: about species is um and learning about um animal personhood,

2284
02:07:12,520 --> 02:07:15,120
Speaker 1: things of that nature. So my my mind is let's

2285
02:07:15,120 --> 02:07:17,960
Speaker 1: forgive me, my mind is spinning right now. UM. But

2286
02:07:18,080 --> 02:07:20,080
Speaker 1: I do, as we were saying before, I do very

2287
02:07:20,200 --> 02:07:22,640
Speaker 1: much want to learn about these things that I have

2288
02:07:22,680 --> 02:07:27,160
Speaker 1: an open curiosity. There's absolutely nothing about me being a

2289
02:07:27,240 --> 02:07:28,720
Speaker 1: hunter in a met eater that makes me want to

2290
02:07:28,760 --> 02:07:31,800
Speaker 1: know less about this or fight against it. I'm I

2291
02:07:31,880 --> 02:07:35,960
Speaker 1: have a legitimate, open curiosity about what you do and

2292
02:07:36,080 --> 02:07:38,720
Speaker 1: what Matt does. So before we get going, give us

2293
02:07:38,720 --> 02:07:43,200
Speaker 1: a quick rundown of of your background, UM, in both

2294
02:07:43,440 --> 02:07:46,760
Speaker 1: philosophy and then also veganism as it were. Well, I

2295
02:07:46,840 --> 02:07:49,560
Speaker 1: can tell you, and the short version of the story

2296
02:07:50,200 --> 02:07:53,400
Speaker 1: is that I no, I grew up in a basic,

2297
02:07:53,760 --> 02:07:57,800
Speaker 1: basic American household meet three times a day. And um,

2298
02:07:58,360 --> 02:08:00,520
Speaker 1: my mother, she would always tease me because after I

2299
02:08:00,600 --> 02:08:05,680
Speaker 1: became vegan, she would say to me, I remember when

2300
02:08:05,800 --> 02:08:08,240
Speaker 1: you were a teenager and I didn't serve meat at

2301
02:08:08,280 --> 02:08:10,600
Speaker 1: a at a meal and you would say. I would

2302
02:08:10,640 --> 02:08:12,920
Speaker 1: say to her, mom, this isn't a real meal. You're

2303
02:08:12,920 --> 02:08:15,120
Speaker 1: supposed to have meat at a meal. So I so, now,

2304
02:08:15,360 --> 02:08:18,680
Speaker 1: of course she would now she looks at me, but um, yeah.

2305
02:08:18,720 --> 02:08:20,040
Speaker 1: So I grew up in that, you know, a basic

2306
02:08:20,280 --> 02:08:24,280
Speaker 1: American lifestyle, grow growing up on the East Coast in Philly,

2307
02:08:24,320 --> 02:08:28,400
Speaker 1: and then I moved to um To l A. And

2308
02:08:29,120 --> 02:08:31,320
Speaker 1: I had a friend who worked at a natural food store.

2309
02:08:31,880 --> 02:08:33,760
Speaker 1: And the first thing that happened was he showed me

2310
02:08:33,800 --> 02:08:37,400
Speaker 1: a little brochure of a veal crate. You and I

2311
02:08:37,480 --> 02:08:39,280
Speaker 1: eat a lot of veal because that was somewhat part

2312
02:08:39,320 --> 02:08:43,880
Speaker 1: of my food deal cut lants, veal scalapini called. My

2313
02:08:44,000 --> 02:08:46,920
Speaker 1: mother was Italian, so um, so I was like, oh,

2314
02:08:46,960 --> 02:08:48,800
Speaker 1: I had no idea they put these little things in

2315
02:08:48,880 --> 02:08:52,280
Speaker 1: little crates, and so that sort of planted a seat

2316
02:08:52,320 --> 02:08:54,440
Speaker 1: in my head and I was like, oh, man, I

2317
02:08:54,560 --> 02:08:55,880
Speaker 1: kind of feel bad, like I don't know if I

2318
02:08:55,880 --> 02:08:59,080
Speaker 1: could eat veal anymore. So that was the first exposure.

2319
02:08:59,280 --> 02:09:02,640
Speaker 1: And then I read a book called Diet for a

2320
02:09:02,720 --> 02:09:06,320
Speaker 1: New America written by John Robbins. I don't know if

2321
02:09:06,320 --> 02:09:09,640
Speaker 1: you know John Robins. John Robbins, he was the heir

2322
02:09:09,760 --> 02:09:13,240
Speaker 1: to the Baskin Robbins ice cream throne. His father and

2323
02:09:13,360 --> 02:09:16,760
Speaker 1: his uncle started basking Robbins. And at some point in

2324
02:09:16,880 --> 02:09:20,680
Speaker 1: his development he decided to be a vegan and animal

2325
02:09:20,760 --> 02:09:24,080
Speaker 1: rights person. And he he actually renounced, He turned down

2326
02:09:24,120 --> 02:09:27,360
Speaker 1: the family business and moved to Hawaiian and grew plants.

2327
02:09:27,640 --> 02:09:30,680
Speaker 1: But anyway, he wrote a book called Diet for New America,

2328
02:09:30,960 --> 02:09:35,080
Speaker 1: and and really I had one of those like Road

2329
02:09:35,200 --> 02:09:38,120
Speaker 1: to Damascus moments, like the scales fell from my eyes.

2330
02:09:38,120 --> 02:09:40,440
Speaker 1: I read this book in like two days. It just

2331
02:09:40,600 --> 02:09:43,160
Speaker 1: laid out like here's the animal rights argument, here's the

2332
02:09:43,280 --> 02:09:46,840
Speaker 1: environmental argument, here's the health argument. And I just I

2333
02:09:47,000 --> 02:09:49,000
Speaker 1: was it. I was just like, this makes perfect sense.

2334
02:09:49,000 --> 02:09:51,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to cause unnecessary suffering. I want to

2335
02:09:51,120 --> 02:09:54,560
Speaker 1: decrease it. And I just on the spot kind of

2336
02:09:54,600 --> 02:09:57,480
Speaker 1: became a vegan. How old were you then, It's in

2337
02:09:57,560 --> 02:10:01,600
Speaker 1: my twenties, the early twenties. Yeah, and I think we're

2338
02:10:01,600 --> 02:10:05,640
Speaker 1: talking about again before we recorded that there is there

2339
02:10:05,760 --> 02:10:08,120
Speaker 1: is this idea that that that I want to fight

2340
02:10:08,160 --> 02:10:11,280
Speaker 1: against that all. You know, like you kind of fringe.

2341
02:10:11,400 --> 02:10:14,160
Speaker 1: You assigned that fringe motive to all the thing you

2342
02:10:14,200 --> 02:10:16,480
Speaker 1: don't agree with. And I think it's good to hear

2343
02:10:16,560 --> 02:10:18,760
Speaker 1: your story and other stories about how you came to

2344
02:10:18,840 --> 02:10:20,880
Speaker 1: this to one, you know what it's like to eat, mean,

2345
02:10:21,080 --> 02:10:23,080
Speaker 1: you understand what it tastes like. You didn't. You didn't

2346
02:10:23,080 --> 02:10:25,080
Speaker 1: grow up in a liberal incubator in l A and

2347
02:10:25,480 --> 02:10:28,440
Speaker 1: Jane and Jane Fonda was not your your mother, so

2348
02:10:28,960 --> 02:10:30,920
Speaker 1: like she did sit in our tank a few times

2349
02:10:30,960 --> 02:10:36,560
Speaker 1: outside the house. Well well you know, let's see thats

2350
02:10:36,640 --> 02:10:40,640
Speaker 1: reaffirms at all vegans, no Jane Fonda. But yeah, I

2351
02:10:40,720 --> 02:10:43,280
Speaker 1: mean for us, I wanted to set that up. You

2352
02:10:43,360 --> 02:10:45,680
Speaker 1: know who you are and how you came to what

2353
02:10:45,800 --> 02:10:49,760
Speaker 1: you believe because I feel very strongly that my path

2354
02:10:49,920 --> 02:10:52,800
Speaker 1: came to my passion a certain way and you you

2355
02:10:54,320 --> 02:10:56,040
Speaker 1: came in your own You got to your passion in

2356
02:10:56,080 --> 02:10:58,440
Speaker 1: your own way. Um, and your in your studies in

2357
02:10:58,520 --> 02:11:01,160
Speaker 1: your own way. So I mean it's it's it's critical

2358
02:11:01,280 --> 02:11:03,920
Speaker 1: to that to that understanding your story is critical. I

2359
02:11:03,960 --> 02:11:06,600
Speaker 1: think for hunters to understand. Well, I have hunted too

2360
02:11:07,840 --> 02:11:13,640
Speaker 1: as a teenager. As a teenager, I hunted just locally

2361
02:11:13,720 --> 02:11:18,520
Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania, obviously, hold on a seconds. Oh yeah yeah,

2362
02:11:20,280 --> 02:11:22,840
Speaker 1: let me take a drink of water. Believe it in me,

2363
02:11:22,920 --> 02:11:27,880
Speaker 1: Like the vegan guy can't he's unhealthy, throw his drive

2364
02:11:27,960 --> 02:11:31,760
Speaker 1: because he doesn't. So you know, as you know, Pennsylvania's

2365
02:11:31,760 --> 02:11:35,080
Speaker 1: a hunting state, and I grew up, Um, you know,

2366
02:11:35,160 --> 02:11:37,160
Speaker 1: people would go up to like Scranton and they would

2367
02:11:37,200 --> 02:11:39,480
Speaker 1: go hunting, and deer hunting is a big, big deal.

2368
02:11:39,600 --> 02:11:43,240
Speaker 1: And um, so I did. I've actually killed animals with

2369
02:11:43,280 --> 02:11:47,960
Speaker 1: a gun. So, I mean, I do feel bad about

2370
02:11:47,960 --> 02:11:49,440
Speaker 1: it now when I think about it as a little

2371
02:11:49,520 --> 02:11:52,560
Speaker 1: innocent I just they were just lit. They were like

2372
02:11:52,640 --> 02:11:54,840
Speaker 1: sitting ducks. They had no idea that I was ready

2373
02:11:54,840 --> 02:11:57,080
Speaker 1: to kill them. And so but I was doing it

2374
02:11:57,120 --> 02:11:59,160
Speaker 1: as a teenager where I was like it was fun,

2375
02:11:59,400 --> 02:12:02,600
Speaker 1: like I got I got a certain kind of gratification

2376
02:12:02,720 --> 02:12:04,879
Speaker 1: from it. So I do have that in my background

2377
02:12:05,560 --> 02:12:08,680
Speaker 1: as far as what happened with me, Like how did

2378
02:12:08,720 --> 02:12:12,560
Speaker 1: I end up, say, being a professor who's writing you know,

2379
02:12:12,680 --> 02:12:16,280
Speaker 1: professional philosophy on animal rights after I did that whole

2380
02:12:16,720 --> 02:12:19,520
Speaker 1: kind of vegan thing. I read that book. Then I

2381
02:12:19,600 --> 02:12:23,680
Speaker 1: started to Then I discovered that there was, actually there

2382
02:12:23,720 --> 02:12:29,200
Speaker 1: were there were philosophical arguments that would undergird these beliefs.

2383
02:12:29,280 --> 02:12:32,120
Speaker 1: So rather than saying something like, you know, animals are

2384
02:12:32,200 --> 02:12:35,160
Speaker 1: like you and they have rights and stuff, when I

2385
02:12:35,240 --> 02:12:37,320
Speaker 1: started to dig deep into it, and I started to

2386
02:12:37,400 --> 02:12:40,360
Speaker 1: read sort of the classics, which would be Peter Singer

2387
02:12:40,440 --> 02:12:43,160
Speaker 1: Animal Liberation and Tom Reagan The Case for Animal Rights.

2388
02:12:44,120 --> 02:12:46,040
Speaker 1: Then I started to get into like the nitty gritty

2389
02:12:46,200 --> 02:12:49,240
Speaker 1: because I've always kind of been analytical. And so then

2390
02:12:49,280 --> 02:12:53,600
Speaker 1: I went to graduate school and I, um, I just

2391
02:12:53,680 --> 02:12:57,480
Speaker 1: wanted to get a master's. But my professors, they they

2392
02:12:58,000 --> 02:13:01,040
Speaker 1: encouraged me to do the PhD thing. And you know,

2393
02:13:01,080 --> 02:13:03,280
Speaker 1: I'm a blue collar guy. I applied to a bunch

2394
02:13:03,320 --> 02:13:05,960
Speaker 1: of schools and I got a phone call one day

2395
02:13:06,000 --> 02:13:08,640
Speaker 1: from Stanford saying, you're in, you know, the PhD program.

2396
02:13:08,720 --> 02:13:11,880
Speaker 1: And I was like, I was like, wait, I know

2397
02:13:12,000 --> 02:13:14,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of Robert Jones, isn't maybe there's another

2398
02:13:14,280 --> 02:13:17,080
Speaker 1: Robert Jones. No, there was no way I did it.

2399
02:13:17,440 --> 02:13:19,200
Speaker 1: So that was like they made me an offer I

2400
02:13:19,280 --> 02:13:23,800
Speaker 1: couldn't refuse. So when I went there, I you know,

2401
02:13:23,920 --> 02:13:26,520
Speaker 1: animal rights in the even in the in the world

2402
02:13:26,560 --> 02:13:29,680
Speaker 1: of philosophy, it's itself fringe. There's not a lot of

2403
02:13:29,680 --> 02:13:32,080
Speaker 1: philosophers who do this work. I mean, there's more now,

2404
02:13:32,240 --> 02:13:35,800
Speaker 1: but this was in nine nine years is yeah, this

2405
02:13:35,960 --> 02:13:37,960
Speaker 1: is all I got accepted to. You know, it's like

2406
02:13:38,280 --> 02:13:41,880
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen years ago. So so what I'm getting at

2407
02:13:41,960 --> 02:13:45,520
Speaker 1: is that, um is that at the time, I thought,

2408
02:13:45,960 --> 02:13:48,960
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna write my dissertation. My dissertation is called

2409
02:13:49,000 --> 02:13:52,120
Speaker 1: the Moral Significance of Animal Cognition. So I really got

2410
02:13:52,200 --> 02:13:57,240
Speaker 1: into like the moral the relationship between cognitive properties of

2411
02:13:57,320 --> 02:13:59,760
Speaker 1: non humans and how we value them. That was something

2412
02:13:59,840 --> 02:14:03,560
Speaker 1: I got really obsessed with. But what I decided was,

2413
02:14:03,760 --> 02:14:06,400
Speaker 1: I thought, there's no one whoever went to Stanford in

2414
02:14:06,400 --> 02:14:08,960
Speaker 1: the philosophy department who did animal rights. So I'm going

2415
02:14:09,040 --> 02:14:11,760
Speaker 1: to be that person, and I'm going to use the

2416
02:14:11,880 --> 02:14:15,640
Speaker 1: cash of you know, West Coast Ivy to kind of

2417
02:14:15,920 --> 02:14:20,920
Speaker 1: legitimate in a certain way aspects of animal rights. So

2418
02:14:21,360 --> 02:14:23,160
Speaker 1: so that's how that's so I've been doing that now

2419
02:14:23,320 --> 02:14:26,120
Speaker 1: for you know, I've got this job in two thousand eight,

2420
02:14:26,240 --> 02:14:28,080
Speaker 1: so it's been eleven years since i've been you know,

2421
02:14:28,280 --> 02:14:35,760
Speaker 1: quote professional philosopher and yeah, it's I mean, I I

2422
02:14:35,840 --> 02:14:38,360
Speaker 1: think there's a lot there. I think I think the

2423
02:14:38,480 --> 02:14:43,200
Speaker 1: issue of the moral sort of the moral status of

2424
02:14:43,320 --> 02:14:47,440
Speaker 1: non human animals, it's a really complicated issue. It's super complicated,

2425
02:14:47,600 --> 02:14:51,440
Speaker 1: and I think I'm drawn to those complicated issues. I

2426
02:14:51,480 --> 02:14:54,120
Speaker 1: think that's where the meat of our humanity and like

2427
02:14:54,240 --> 02:14:56,160
Speaker 1: the things that were really tugging at us, even as

2428
02:14:56,280 --> 02:14:59,160
Speaker 1: Ben did you have to say meat there tofu, I'm

2429
02:14:59,160 --> 02:15:02,280
Speaker 1: just trying to make you score tofu kill stuff too.

2430
02:15:04,560 --> 02:15:09,120
Speaker 1: We'll get there, get there. Um. I just think these

2431
02:15:09,200 --> 02:15:12,440
Speaker 1: issues are you know, I keep saying the meaty and

2432
02:15:13,000 --> 02:15:14,760
Speaker 1: and that's where like, that's where we can really get

2433
02:15:14,840 --> 02:15:17,360
Speaker 1: to the things that tug at us philosophically. I feel,

2434
02:15:17,360 --> 02:15:20,600
Speaker 1: at least there's a lot of things that tug at

2435
02:15:20,640 --> 02:15:23,360
Speaker 1: me philosophically about hunting, and I'm just unabashed at trying

2436
02:15:23,400 --> 02:15:25,600
Speaker 1: to explore them. Just happened to do it in the

2437
02:15:25,680 --> 02:15:28,880
Speaker 1: public forum. But I mean, there's really if I were

2438
02:15:28,960 --> 02:15:30,880
Speaker 1: to sit down and be like, what, you know, what

2439
02:15:31,080 --> 02:15:36,000
Speaker 1: worries me about hunting personally intrinsically? What what is it

2440
02:15:36,160 --> 02:15:41,000
Speaker 1: that that just just makes me ache? And it's just like, boy, man,

2441
02:15:41,080 --> 02:15:43,160
Speaker 1: this thing is it's my it's the industry I'm in,

2442
02:15:43,280 --> 02:15:46,400
Speaker 1: it's the lifestyle I've chosen. It's the thing I'm most

2443
02:15:46,440 --> 02:15:48,400
Speaker 1: passionate about. It is the thing I think the most about.

2444
02:15:49,320 --> 02:15:52,240
Speaker 1: And it involves killing things and ripping their guts out.

2445
02:15:52,680 --> 02:15:57,760
Speaker 1: And so is that you know, historically, if I look

2446
02:15:57,800 --> 02:15:59,600
Speaker 1: at the span of history in thirty years, are we

2447
02:15:59,640 --> 02:16:01,400
Speaker 1: gonna look back at me and be like, what was

2448
02:16:01,560 --> 02:16:04,080
Speaker 1: this guy doing? Um? So that talks to me, and

2449
02:16:04,120 --> 02:16:05,960
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, I'm open about it. I'm not

2450
02:16:06,000 --> 02:16:08,400
Speaker 1: ashamed of that. It's like probably should because if I'm

2451
02:16:08,400 --> 02:16:11,440
Speaker 1: going to do something as serious as go out into

2452
02:16:11,480 --> 02:16:14,200
Speaker 1: the you know, go out into the woods and find

2453
02:16:14,240 --> 02:16:16,720
Speaker 1: an animal to pick the animal I'd like to kill,

2454
02:16:16,840 --> 02:16:19,960
Speaker 1: go and kill it and then dismember and bring it

2455
02:16:20,000 --> 02:16:21,879
Speaker 1: home and feed to my family. That's a pretty complex

2456
02:16:21,920 --> 02:16:24,160
Speaker 1: and serious thing to go and do. It's not it's

2457
02:16:24,200 --> 02:16:27,000
Speaker 1: not a bike ride, you know. It's a pretty three

2458
02:16:27,040 --> 02:16:29,720
Speaker 1: dimensional kind of like way to to way to like

2459
02:16:29,880 --> 02:16:33,640
Speaker 1: recreate or to to to find joy in the world.

2460
02:16:33,680 --> 02:16:37,560
Speaker 1: So it's something that I that talks at me, and

2461
02:16:37,600 --> 02:16:39,840
Speaker 1: I think that's probably like we probably have this go

2462
02:16:40,080 --> 02:16:43,400
Speaker 1: same kind of quandaries within within our consumption within the

2463
02:16:43,920 --> 02:16:46,720
Speaker 1: what we're really involved in. It's just like you look

2464
02:16:46,760 --> 02:16:48,320
Speaker 1: at the world and like, I got some problems with this.

2465
02:16:49,120 --> 02:16:52,280
Speaker 1: How can I solve those problems? Um? And I think

2466
02:16:52,360 --> 02:16:54,879
Speaker 1: that's where most vegans, I don't know about you, most

2467
02:16:55,000 --> 02:16:56,520
Speaker 1: vegans and me kind of a line like we're just

2468
02:16:56,760 --> 02:17:00,720
Speaker 1: there's we see the issues with consumption and the human

2469
02:17:00,800 --> 02:17:03,760
Speaker 1: engine that we are, and we're trying to solve those things. Yeah,

2470
02:17:04,480 --> 02:17:07,000
Speaker 1: do you think so? I read I want to talk

2471
02:17:07,000 --> 02:17:08,680
Speaker 1: about it. We'll probably talk about this forever. But I

2472
02:17:08,720 --> 02:17:11,960
Speaker 1: read veganism as an aspiration and I was like clapping

2473
02:17:12,040 --> 02:17:14,880
Speaker 1: during most of it because I think, I think what

2474
02:17:14,959 --> 02:17:17,879
Speaker 1: I'd like to do is first set up what most

2475
02:17:17,959 --> 02:17:20,880
Speaker 1: hunters are, most folks might think about vegans and and

2476
02:17:21,000 --> 02:17:24,160
Speaker 1: and veganism. Veganism as an aspiration, you knock a lot

2477
02:17:24,240 --> 02:17:27,600
Speaker 1: of those right over, Like, at least in my opinion,

2478
02:17:27,760 --> 02:17:30,840
Speaker 1: you do. Um, So give us your like the two

2479
02:17:30,959 --> 02:17:33,560
Speaker 1: forms of veganism that you can see there to be

2480
02:17:33,680 --> 02:17:36,920
Speaker 1: there are two different ways that people can conceive of veganism. Yeah.

2481
02:17:37,200 --> 02:17:38,720
Speaker 1: So in that paper, and I want to say I

2482
02:17:39,200 --> 02:17:42,360
Speaker 1: I co authored that with Lori Gruin. Yes, she's she's

2483
02:17:42,840 --> 02:17:44,800
Speaker 1: uh one of the giants in the in the world

2484
02:17:44,840 --> 02:17:47,360
Speaker 1: of animal waits, and I owe her a lot for that, um.

2485
02:17:47,600 --> 02:17:50,360
Speaker 1: But actually I've I've since developed that idea a little

2486
02:17:50,360 --> 02:17:51,960
Speaker 1: bit more. Yeah, I was gonna say it's been a while,

2487
02:17:51,959 --> 02:17:54,160
Speaker 1: I should say that it's been two so I'm sure

2488
02:17:54,280 --> 02:17:57,520
Speaker 1: there's there's lots. Yeah, I've developed some stuff. But basically,

2489
02:17:57,760 --> 02:17:59,960
Speaker 1: the way I was, the way that I can see

2490
02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:02,879
Speaker 1: even of veganism, the way that Lori and I conceived

2491
02:18:02,920 --> 02:18:04,600
Speaker 1: of it, and then I've been thinking more about it

2492
02:18:04,879 --> 02:18:07,240
Speaker 1: is so let me ben, let me just say first

2493
02:18:07,280 --> 02:18:13,000
Speaker 1: of all that it's so I feel like I've kind

2494
02:18:13,040 --> 02:18:15,560
Speaker 1: of gone around the circle on this. I've gone around

2495
02:18:15,560 --> 02:18:19,119
Speaker 1: the wheel. And what I mean by that is when

2496
02:18:19,160 --> 02:18:24,640
Speaker 1: people say, like, do I identify as a vegan? Because

2497
02:18:24,720 --> 02:18:30,279
Speaker 1: of the way that the term and the concept vegan

2498
02:18:30,879 --> 02:18:33,920
Speaker 1: has sort of traveled through the culture, It's almost like

2499
02:18:34,480 --> 02:18:42,080
Speaker 1: I distanced myself these days because veganism, in many ways,

2500
02:18:42,120 --> 02:18:43,600
Speaker 1: and I talked about it in the paper You're talking

2501
02:18:43,680 --> 02:18:48,439
Speaker 1: about veganism is in some ways well, first of all, veganism,

2502
02:18:48,800 --> 02:18:54,360
Speaker 1: at least today in in popular culture, it's about It's

2503
02:18:54,400 --> 02:18:57,280
Speaker 1: about food choices, right, It's about the choices you you

2504
02:18:57,400 --> 02:18:59,920
Speaker 1: make when you when you go to purchase food or

2505
02:19:00,040 --> 02:19:05,520
Speaker 1: make food. And in many ways it's divorced from the

2506
02:19:05,640 --> 02:19:11,880
Speaker 1: issue of justice. And I see quote animal rights or

2507
02:19:11,920 --> 02:19:15,240
Speaker 1: animal ethics issues as it as a social justice issue

2508
02:19:15,320 --> 02:19:21,760
Speaker 1: about non human animals. And so I'm reluctant to use

2509
02:19:21,959 --> 02:19:27,760
Speaker 1: veganism interchangeably with animal justice or animal ethics because you know,

2510
02:19:27,879 --> 02:19:30,600
Speaker 1: Beyonce's a vegan, and all these people are vegan and

2511
02:19:30,640 --> 02:19:34,880
Speaker 1: they eat plant based foods, and so what I argue

2512
02:19:34,920 --> 02:19:36,640
Speaker 1: in that paper is, you know, you can think of

2513
02:19:36,720 --> 02:19:40,160
Speaker 1: yourself what I call like identity vegan or lifestyle vegans.

2514
02:19:40,240 --> 02:19:45,040
Speaker 1: So there are there are vegans. I mean, I don't

2515
02:19:45,080 --> 02:19:47,720
Speaker 1: know that this is not scientific by any means, but

2516
02:19:48,400 --> 02:19:51,160
Speaker 1: there is a stigma attached to vegans where people think

2517
02:19:51,240 --> 02:19:55,440
Speaker 1: that vegans are kind of zealous, self righteous kinds of people,

2518
02:19:55,560 --> 02:19:58,360
Speaker 1: and they think I'm holier than now, and I sort

2519
02:19:58,400 --> 02:20:01,680
Speaker 1: of I have clean hands because I don't consume any

2520
02:20:01,720 --> 02:20:05,000
Speaker 1: animal products. I don't wear leather, I don't eat honey,

2521
02:20:05,120 --> 02:20:07,120
Speaker 1: I don't use wool, I don't write and and and

2522
02:20:07,600 --> 02:20:10,040
Speaker 1: I know all this stuff because I lived it. Right,

2523
02:20:10,320 --> 02:20:12,440
Speaker 1: So it says in the papers as these vegans have

2524
02:20:12,480 --> 02:20:16,080
Speaker 1: an air of moral certitude and moral spirit art. So

2525
02:20:16,240 --> 02:20:19,440
Speaker 1: so there's a certain, whether it be factual or not,

2526
02:20:19,560 --> 02:20:23,200
Speaker 1: at least there's a certain caricature of vegans that they

2527
02:20:23,320 --> 02:20:26,160
Speaker 1: have a kind of moral superiority. And I was at

2528
02:20:26,480 --> 02:20:29,720
Speaker 1: at the butcher's son shout out to the butcher's side,

2529
02:20:29,800 --> 02:20:31,560
Speaker 1: how did you like it there? It was good? What

2530
02:20:31,680 --> 02:20:34,000
Speaker 1: did you well? I'm curious, I'm so curious. What did

2531
02:20:34,040 --> 02:20:37,080
Speaker 1: you What is your order? I had? Uh, hopefully you

2532
02:20:37,120 --> 02:20:39,000
Speaker 1: can give me some more like some more dope on

2533
02:20:39,120 --> 02:20:41,840
Speaker 1: what's really going on there. I had the chicken grinder,

2534
02:20:42,360 --> 02:20:44,960
Speaker 1: which is a is a nice sandwich with some kind

2535
02:20:45,000 --> 02:20:48,440
Speaker 1: of chicken facima. Suddenly they're like, whatever that was? I

2536
02:20:48,520 --> 02:20:50,600
Speaker 1: didn't really, I didn't have time. I was like, I

2537
02:20:50,640 --> 02:20:52,680
Speaker 1: gotta eat lunch, then we gotta go to coord of podcast.

2538
02:20:52,720 --> 02:20:54,400
Speaker 1: I don't have really time to take this menu and

2539
02:20:54,520 --> 02:20:55,920
Speaker 1: kind of like, but I took a picture of the menu,

2540
02:20:55,959 --> 02:20:57,600
Speaker 1: said go back and look at the ingredients and kind

2541
02:20:57,600 --> 02:21:00,040
Speaker 1: of break down what was what? But it was good it.

2542
02:21:00,520 --> 02:21:03,360
Speaker 1: I would eat there every day. I ain't problem with that.

2543
02:21:03,480 --> 02:21:06,160
Speaker 1: I just why did they We're gonna go We'll go

2544
02:21:06,240 --> 02:21:08,520
Speaker 1: down this rabbit hole because we should. Why do they

2545
02:21:08,680 --> 02:21:11,400
Speaker 1: why do they say chicken though, like I didn't anything.

2546
02:21:11,400 --> 02:21:14,360
Speaker 1: I understand. Why would you why would you say that

2547
02:21:14,440 --> 02:21:17,640
Speaker 1: it's chicken when it's not. I don't understand. And they

2548
02:21:17,680 --> 02:21:20,560
Speaker 1: also said, like, much like you're saying, we don't like

2549
02:21:20,720 --> 02:21:23,320
Speaker 1: the term vegan. When I was talking to the cashier's again,

2550
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:26,160
Speaker 1: we don't really we say vegan. It's in there, but

2551
02:21:26,240 --> 02:21:28,360
Speaker 1: we don't really like to say it anymore. It's plant based,

2552
02:21:29,080 --> 02:21:31,120
Speaker 1: That's what he was saying, and much the same the

2553
02:21:31,200 --> 02:21:32,760
Speaker 1: much the same way you're saying it, and I think

2554
02:21:32,840 --> 02:21:35,680
Speaker 1: plant based, and I want to go back. I want

2555
02:21:35,720 --> 02:21:37,400
Speaker 1: to go back to that issue about it where they

2556
02:21:37,440 --> 02:21:41,400
Speaker 1: say chicken and the butcher's son, I mean, I I

2557
02:21:41,400 --> 02:21:43,080
Speaker 1: don't know if people who are listening to the podcast,

2558
02:21:43,080 --> 02:21:46,440
Speaker 1: but your son is a fully vegan deli in Berkeley,

2559
02:21:46,520 --> 02:21:48,240
Speaker 1: and I don't know if it was when you were there.

2560
02:21:48,280 --> 02:21:50,120
Speaker 1: Every time I've been there, it's it's a pretty packed,

2561
02:21:50,160 --> 02:21:51,680
Speaker 1: you can get a table. And in fact, the guy

2562
02:21:51,720 --> 02:21:54,880
Speaker 1: that the folks I was with from direct action everywhere,

2563
02:21:55,040 --> 02:21:57,680
Speaker 1: they were like, this is the this is the slowest

2564
02:21:57,760 --> 02:22:00,440
Speaker 1: we've seen it. It's good and it's it's all I

2565
02:22:00,520 --> 02:22:03,760
Speaker 1: care about a good food. No, it's good it's great

2566
02:22:03,800 --> 02:22:06,240
Speaker 1: food to me. I just was like a bit like,

2567
02:22:07,040 --> 02:22:09,520
Speaker 1: why we just tell me what's in it? I want

2568
02:22:09,560 --> 02:22:11,800
Speaker 1: to know what I'm eating. It's not chicken, I know that,

2569
02:22:12,760 --> 02:22:14,160
Speaker 1: So I just like to know if it's a wheat

2570
02:22:14,240 --> 02:22:17,160
Speaker 1: based you know, like shred or whatever it is. I

2571
02:22:17,320 --> 02:22:20,080
Speaker 1: just like to know that. I don't don't You're not

2572
02:22:20,120 --> 02:22:23,320
Speaker 1: tricking me. Yeah, but what you are doing is confusing me.

2573
02:22:23,720 --> 02:22:25,840
Speaker 1: I think I think we're going This is a good point.

2574
02:22:25,879 --> 02:22:28,800
Speaker 1: I had you brought up the the plant based thing

2575
02:22:28,840 --> 02:22:31,080
Speaker 1: because this touches on exactly what I was talking about,

2576
02:22:31,120 --> 02:22:36,120
Speaker 1: and that you know, within the vegan movement there is

2577
02:22:36,200 --> 02:22:38,720
Speaker 1: like the plant based. Now, when you say plant based,

2578
02:22:38,879 --> 02:22:41,360
Speaker 1: usually not always, but usually what that implies is that

2579
02:22:42,520 --> 02:22:46,320
Speaker 1: I'm a vegan for these reasons. Um, it's not so

2580
02:22:46,440 --> 02:22:49,200
Speaker 1: much focus, say on animal justice issues as much, and

2581
02:22:49,280 --> 02:22:51,600
Speaker 1: it can be they overlap, there's a lot of overlap,

2582
02:22:51,720 --> 02:22:56,400
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's more about perhaps maybe health reasons,

2583
02:22:57,200 --> 02:23:00,840
Speaker 1: or it could be something like environmental reasons and mental degradation,

2584
02:23:00,920 --> 02:23:04,800
Speaker 1: and and it's associated with or I should say, factory

2585
02:23:05,280 --> 02:23:12,240
Speaker 1: industrial produce, agriculture and environmental degradation. So plant based for me,

2586
02:23:13,000 --> 02:23:15,960
Speaker 1: if if you looked at my diet. If you just said, Robert,

2587
02:23:16,000 --> 02:23:17,640
Speaker 1: write down everything you eat for a week, it would

2588
02:23:17,680 --> 02:23:21,280
Speaker 1: look like a plant based person. But I personally, I

2589
02:23:21,400 --> 02:23:25,600
Speaker 1: feel like my cause is a political cause. It's a

2590
02:23:25,680 --> 02:23:30,280
Speaker 1: social justice cause. It's not about diet, right, so so

2591
02:23:30,480 --> 02:23:33,280
Speaker 1: so going back to our original questions, so and I

2592
02:23:33,480 --> 02:23:35,200
Speaker 1: really what I don't ben, what I definitely don't want

2593
02:23:35,240 --> 02:23:38,320
Speaker 1: to do is come on this podcast and pile on

2594
02:23:38,600 --> 02:23:42,280
Speaker 1: vegans and because they're already demonized enough. But what I

2595
02:23:42,360 --> 02:23:46,040
Speaker 1: want to say is the version of veganism that I

2596
02:23:46,560 --> 02:23:49,840
Speaker 1: advocate for, and I'm writing on it now. I'm actually

2597
02:23:49,879 --> 02:23:51,800
Speaker 1: I've been struggling with writing this book for a year,

2598
02:23:51,879 --> 02:23:55,680
Speaker 1: which is which is thinking about the social justice aspects

2599
02:23:55,720 --> 02:24:01,760
Speaker 1: of of this issue. But um, the eganism as as

2600
02:24:01,800 --> 02:24:05,200
Speaker 1: a liberation movement, not so much as a food movement, right, So,

2601
02:24:05,400 --> 02:24:13,160
Speaker 1: veganism as a political stance rejecting things like corporate consumer

2602
02:24:13,240 --> 02:24:16,760
Speaker 1: capitalism and environmental degradation. All these things are all tied

2603
02:24:16,840 --> 02:24:20,520
Speaker 1: together human health issues. So the picture is very big

2604
02:24:21,080 --> 02:24:23,160
Speaker 1: if you're a vegan. And I mentioned this all the

2605
02:24:23,200 --> 02:24:25,760
Speaker 1: time when I give these talks like let's say you're

2606
02:24:25,760 --> 02:24:28,200
Speaker 1: a vegan and buy vegan what you mean is that

2607
02:24:28,440 --> 02:24:32,000
Speaker 1: you do not consume and I mean that literally and

2608
02:24:32,200 --> 02:24:35,960
Speaker 1: figuratively with regard to say purchasing, You don't consume animal products.

2609
02:24:36,560 --> 02:24:41,440
Speaker 1: So you might think, I'm I've removed myself from the

2610
02:24:41,600 --> 02:24:44,480
Speaker 1: cycle of suffering, right, because I don't. I'm not causing

2611
02:24:44,520 --> 02:24:48,480
Speaker 1: any suffering. However, let's say you, for example, you go

2612
02:24:48,680 --> 02:24:51,320
Speaker 1: to Walmart and you buy a cotton T shirt because

2613
02:24:51,320 --> 02:24:54,680
Speaker 1: it's cheap, and that cotton. To produce the cotton is

2614
02:24:54,800 --> 02:24:58,560
Speaker 1: really environmentally it takes a lot of resources to produce cotton.

2615
02:24:59,200 --> 02:25:02,680
Speaker 1: And then there might be a young a young girl

2616
02:25:02,840 --> 02:25:09,760
Speaker 1: who's in Indonesia making you know, crap wages um to

2617
02:25:09,879 --> 02:25:14,000
Speaker 1: produce that that clothing under this kind of you know, um,

2618
02:25:14,280 --> 02:25:20,320
Speaker 1: global corporate capitalist economy. And so if you think that

2619
02:25:20,520 --> 02:25:24,039
Speaker 1: withholding your you're voting with your dollars. If you're voting,

2620
02:25:24,400 --> 02:25:27,360
Speaker 1: you're saying I'm gonna I'm gonna avoid suffering. Because most

2621
02:25:27,520 --> 02:25:29,960
Speaker 1: vegans who are ethical vegans, and I don't mean I

2622
02:25:30,000 --> 02:25:34,520
Speaker 1: mean non like health plant based versions, I mean of veganism.

2623
02:25:35,200 --> 02:25:37,200
Speaker 1: But most people who say, if I say to you,

2624
02:25:37,280 --> 02:25:38,840
Speaker 1: why are you a vegan, and you say, because I

2625
02:25:38,879 --> 02:25:42,160
Speaker 1: don't want to cause unnecessary suffering. So there's an implication

2626
02:25:42,280 --> 02:25:47,800
Speaker 1: that by refraining from eating animal products, I'm decreasing the

2627
02:25:47,879 --> 02:25:51,880
Speaker 1: suffering in the world. But all of our purchases. This

2628
02:25:52,000 --> 02:25:53,520
Speaker 1: is what I say, and that I think that's the

2629
02:25:53,520 --> 02:25:55,840
Speaker 1: paper where I say, I say we all have blood

2630
02:25:55,879 --> 02:25:58,920
Speaker 1: on our hands on our hands has some great quotes

2631
02:25:58,959 --> 02:26:01,320
Speaker 1: inherence and things like that. That's where I'm reading them. Like, look,

2632
02:26:02,400 --> 02:26:05,720
Speaker 1: I think I think conceptually veganism is great, like i'm

2633
02:26:05,800 --> 02:26:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm I think it's a if. It's it's like, it's

2634
02:26:08,120 --> 02:26:09,920
Speaker 1: a choice, is the thing I want to do. Conceptually,

2635
02:26:09,959 --> 02:26:15,000
Speaker 1: it's great because it's you are metering or limiting in

2636
02:26:15,200 --> 02:26:18,080
Speaker 1: some way your impact on the world, and you're doing

2637
02:26:18,120 --> 02:26:22,080
Speaker 1: it for altruistic reasons. But the big argument that I've

2638
02:26:22,120 --> 02:26:25,600
Speaker 1: always that most people, most even ford facing folks that

2639
02:26:25,640 --> 02:26:27,920
Speaker 1: I know, you're like listen, you can't your your hands

2640
02:26:27,920 --> 02:26:31,480
Speaker 1: aren't your hands aren't clean, they just aren't, you know,

2641
02:26:31,560 --> 02:26:36,160
Speaker 1: and you look at like, say, oh, keenwa right. Kea

2642
02:26:36,280 --> 02:26:39,680
Speaker 1: was mostly produced in the Andies. I mean there's when

2643
02:26:39,760 --> 02:26:43,720
Speaker 1: the when there's more higher demand for keena, that the

2644
02:26:43,840 --> 02:26:45,520
Speaker 1: price goes up for the people that are using it

2645
02:26:46,040 --> 02:26:49,400
Speaker 1: and eating it where they are you know, Mexican avocados

2646
02:26:49,600 --> 02:26:52,600
Speaker 1: was another great example of like, you know, the more

2647
02:26:52,680 --> 02:26:56,240
Speaker 1: demand from Exican avocados raise the prices and screws with

2648
02:26:56,280 --> 02:26:59,520
Speaker 1: a lot of things, right, and deforestation comes from people

2649
02:26:59,680 --> 02:27:02,040
Speaker 1: like I, I gotta prove more avcatos. Let's just get

2650
02:27:02,160 --> 02:27:05,360
Speaker 1: rid of this far us. And so there is there's

2651
02:27:05,400 --> 02:27:08,600
Speaker 1: just this this acknowledgement of that is a good Like

2652
02:27:08,680 --> 02:27:11,439
Speaker 1: when I was reading through that, I'm like, this acknowledgement

2653
02:27:12,400 --> 02:27:16,320
Speaker 1: helps to mitigate almost everything, almost everything we disagree on,

2654
02:27:16,800 --> 02:27:19,760
Speaker 1: at least the core basic issues. I think most hunters

2655
02:27:19,800 --> 02:27:22,760
Speaker 1: are most meat eaters have with me. It's like the

2656
02:27:22,840 --> 02:27:25,640
Speaker 1: moral superiority thing is just that's where I get off

2657
02:27:25,680 --> 02:27:27,640
Speaker 1: the bus. You know, that's where most that's I think

2658
02:27:27,680 --> 02:27:30,080
Speaker 1: that's where most folks get off the bus. So if

2659
02:27:30,080 --> 02:27:32,000
Speaker 1: you could start the conversation by saying, yeah, we get it.

2660
02:27:32,840 --> 02:27:34,800
Speaker 1: We had a lot a lot of things to figure

2661
02:27:34,840 --> 02:27:37,360
Speaker 1: out here. But this is just my way of trying

2662
02:27:37,400 --> 02:27:41,000
Speaker 1: to general better the world by consuming in a better way.

2663
02:27:42,080 --> 02:27:46,039
Speaker 1: I think that's that's understandable because That's what I'm doing. Again,

2664
02:27:46,080 --> 02:27:49,440
Speaker 1: I see I think that and I don't know, you know,

2665
02:27:49,520 --> 02:27:53,200
Speaker 1: I don't know the hunting culture then as well as

2666
02:27:53,240 --> 02:27:56,800
Speaker 1: you do, obviously, But I'm I would say, if I

2667
02:27:56,879 --> 02:28:01,160
Speaker 1: had to guess, both in the animals world and in

2668
02:28:01,200 --> 02:28:04,440
Speaker 1: the hunting world, the kind of thing that you and

2669
02:28:04,480 --> 02:28:08,000
Speaker 1: I are talking about is not the predominant view, at

2670
02:28:08,080 --> 02:28:11,520
Speaker 1: least from my experience. It's not like i'd say this

2671
02:28:11,760 --> 02:28:15,760
Speaker 1: in the population in general, most people, most consumers don't

2672
02:28:15,840 --> 02:28:20,680
Speaker 1: think about the interconnectedness of all these kinds of industries

2673
02:28:20,760 --> 02:28:24,320
Speaker 1: and human endeavors as the impacts that they have, right, So,

2674
02:28:25,360 --> 02:28:28,320
Speaker 1: so I think it's important for no matter where you're

2675
02:28:28,600 --> 02:28:31,760
Speaker 1: where you come down on this issue of hunting or

2676
02:28:32,560 --> 02:28:38,320
Speaker 1: um animal rights, we're all involved in this cycle of destruction.

2677
02:28:38,560 --> 02:28:40,600
Speaker 1: You can't get out of the cycle of destruction. You

2678
02:28:40,680 --> 02:28:43,520
Speaker 1: can't have seven and a half billion people, nine billion

2679
02:28:43,560 --> 02:28:46,120
Speaker 1: people by twenty fifty, eleven billion people by the end

2680
02:28:46,160 --> 02:28:50,360
Speaker 1: of the century. You can't have that many people and

2681
02:28:50,520 --> 02:28:54,080
Speaker 1: have the place be sustainable. I mean, you know, you

2682
02:28:54,160 --> 02:28:56,800
Speaker 1: may have heard the statistic if everyone on the planet

2683
02:28:56,920 --> 02:29:00,040
Speaker 1: lived an affluent Western lifestyle, we would need five and

2684
02:29:00,160 --> 02:29:03,400
Speaker 1: it Earth's as like resources, right, So we're all we're

2685
02:29:03,400 --> 02:29:10,000
Speaker 1: all in this together. I guess I grew up an

2686
02:29:10,000 --> 02:29:15,320
Speaker 1: older that's it. That's all another episode in the books,

2687
02:29:15,640 --> 02:29:17,920
Speaker 1: another year in the books of the Hunting Collective. Certainly

2688
02:29:17,959 --> 02:29:21,360
Speaker 1: in our second year, and it's our year really will

2689
02:29:21,400 --> 02:29:26,600
Speaker 1: be defined as BP and PP before Phil and post

2690
02:29:26,640 --> 02:29:30,000
Speaker 1: Phil right like right in the middle, instead of pre

2691
02:29:30,120 --> 02:29:32,640
Speaker 1: and post or after and before. We're doing a combination

2692
02:29:32,760 --> 02:29:36,760
Speaker 1: combination of the two free before and then after. Yes,

2693
02:29:36,879 --> 02:29:39,400
Speaker 1: that's right, it makes sense. It makes sense to us, um,

2694
02:29:39,640 --> 02:29:41,680
Speaker 1: and that's what we're gonna do. So the year will

2695
02:29:41,680 --> 02:29:44,960
Speaker 1: be defined really by by Phil. Phil brought us joy,

2696
02:29:45,720 --> 02:29:50,000
Speaker 1: he brought us pain with his Star Wars segment. He

2697
02:29:50,080 --> 02:29:53,640
Speaker 1: brought us laughter. I can't really remember when the laughter came,

2698
02:29:53,720 --> 02:29:56,520
Speaker 1: but it was in there. It was in there, Um,

2699
02:29:56,800 --> 02:29:59,959
Speaker 1: And we'll admit that we just recorded and threw away

2700
02:30:00,560 --> 02:30:04,320
Speaker 1: the first attempt at this ending. Yeah, we're planning on

2701
02:30:04,480 --> 02:30:07,640
Speaker 1: recording Peek behind the Curtain again. I like saying that

2702
02:30:07,760 --> 02:30:10,560
Speaker 1: it's fun because there's a curtain by the curtain. We

2703
02:30:10,680 --> 02:30:14,440
Speaker 1: were planning on recording all the setups and intros for

2704
02:30:14,800 --> 02:30:17,080
Speaker 1: all four of these best of episodes you're going to

2705
02:30:17,240 --> 02:30:19,960
Speaker 1: here in the next in the coming weeks. We just

2706
02:30:20,120 --> 02:30:23,680
Speaker 1: finished number two and we're already loopy loop. We're out.

2707
02:30:24,240 --> 02:30:27,040
Speaker 1: If you couldn't tell the intro of this episode, it

2708
02:30:27,160 --> 02:30:29,959
Speaker 1: was already it's already gone. It's yeah, it's a loop

2709
02:30:30,000 --> 02:30:32,760
Speaker 1: time and you know, like we've said, I've having having

2710
02:30:32,800 --> 02:30:35,440
Speaker 1: a child, so I'll be out for some time at January.

2711
02:30:36,440 --> 02:30:38,800
Speaker 1: We're just trying to get ahead God bless us, get

2712
02:30:38,800 --> 02:30:41,960
Speaker 1: ahead of thanks. But it's also the thing that we

2713
02:30:42,080 --> 02:30:44,480
Speaker 1: just threw away is also emblematic in a way of

2714
02:30:44,560 --> 02:30:48,240
Speaker 1: the show itself, because there's a lot of times that

2715
02:30:48,280 --> 02:30:50,920
Speaker 1: I just wing it. Have you haven't? Have you noticed

2716
02:30:50,920 --> 02:30:53,320
Speaker 1: that Phil, where I just wing it and it doesn't work.

2717
02:30:54,160 --> 02:30:56,480
Speaker 1: I have noticed, but we put it in anyway, and

2718
02:30:56,520 --> 02:30:57,760
Speaker 1: then some people are like, what the hell is why

2719
02:30:57,760 --> 02:30:59,320
Speaker 1: did you do that? I'm like why, I don't want

2720
02:30:59,320 --> 02:31:02,040
Speaker 1: it to be there either, But honest, yeah, it's honest.

2721
02:31:02,160 --> 02:31:06,360
Speaker 1: I think that's a virtue. It's imperfect, should be held up.

2722
02:31:06,480 --> 02:31:09,439
Speaker 1: We're in perfect heartus. Some of our stuff is hilarious.

2723
02:31:09,480 --> 02:31:11,680
Speaker 1: Other stuff like what is even going on? It's a

2724
02:31:11,760 --> 02:31:14,120
Speaker 1: hunting pockets? What are you talking about that? And I

2725
02:31:14,200 --> 02:31:18,920
Speaker 1: think that's just really me. So to close out the year,

2726
02:31:19,720 --> 02:31:23,440
Speaker 1: Phil is going to sing, No, Phil is not how

2727
02:31:23,480 --> 02:31:26,360
Speaker 1: he's shaking his head. He's not going to sing, well you,

2728
02:31:26,560 --> 02:31:28,440
Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're about to say, so

2729
02:31:29,120 --> 02:31:39,440
Speaker 1: I just started shaking my head. Phil, I just want

2730
02:31:39,480 --> 02:31:50,000
Speaker 1: to say thank you. What are you gonna sing? No, well,

2731
02:31:50,040 --> 02:31:52,840
Speaker 1: then you're ruining the end of the segment if you're

2732
02:31:52,840 --> 02:31:55,760
Speaker 1: not gonna sing. How can we end this year with

2733
02:31:55,920 --> 02:32:04,680
Speaker 1: you not singing? Come on, Phil, all right, that's it.

2734
02:32:05,520 --> 02:32:11,960
Speaker 1: We'll see you next year. All right, we red that again.

2735
02:32:12,200 --> 02:32:16,600
Speaker 1: I was so bad because I can't go a week

2736
02:32:16,680 --> 02:32:24,720
Speaker 1: without doing run oh with absolute run, drinking out and

2737
02:32:25,520 --> 02:32:46,320
Speaker 1: run absolutely wrong. Drinking in heaven, don't sit in at

2738
02:32:46,400 --> 02:32:49,880
Speaker 1: the possible would stop the row root. I'm being there again.

2739
02:32:50,000 --> 02:32:52,720
Speaker 1: Hold on out, bar rush shoes down my