WEBVTT - Federal Police Clash with Portland Protesters 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:05.720 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:09.200 Oregon is now locked in a battle with the federal government, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:13.440 suing the Department of Homeland Security and the US Marshall Service, 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.040 alleging they've overstepped their powers and threatening injuring or arresting 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.800 protesters with militarized units on the streets of Portland. Mayor 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.560 Ted Wheeler said the actions of the federal troops are 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:31.040 unconstitutional and he wants them to leave unmarked vehicles driving 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.440 in the crowds, pulling people off the streets without any 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:37.600 probable cause as far as I can tell, and the 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:40.600 people who are engaging in those activities aren't even willing 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.600 to identify who they are, and they don't wear insignia 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:47.480 on their uniforms. That's a real threat to democracy because 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:51.880 ultimately there's no accountability for that. But Acting Deputy Secretary 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.920 for the Department of Homeland Security Ken Cucinelli defended the 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.840 actions of federal troops and explained a video circulating of 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.160 a men being apprehended by federal troops and put into 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.440 an unmarked vehicle, Well, they determined that was not the 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.240 person who did the assault and released him, joining me 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:13.080 as former federal prosecutor Eli Hoenig of Lowenstein Sandler. Do 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.440 you remember another time in our history where there were 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:23.039 cases of unidentified federal officers in camouflage throwing people into 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.720 unmarked vans, taking them into custody, putting them in a 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:31.080 jail cell, questioning them, and then releasing them without any 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.199 record of their arrest. Absolutely not. And there's so much 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.919 about this that sticks out as being not just unusual, 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:43.399 but extraordinary and potentially extraordinarily dangerous. So let's start with this. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.200 First of all, we don't have secret police here in 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:48.480 the United States. I think that's one of the core 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.040 theories that are democracy or a criminal justice system is 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.480 built on um. I think what this really is a 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.960 sort of performative law and order for some reason. There's 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:01.680 obviously a political mode of behind this whole song and dance, 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.559 but it's really dangerous, and I can sort of tick 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.360 through the ways. First of all, there's no such thing 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.639 as federal police in the way that people normally think 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.560 of police doing patrols. There are certainly are federal law 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:17.080 enforcement agents at the I being the most widely known, 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.240 but D E. A and A T S and on 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:21.640 down the line. US marshals who are involved in this 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.680 case DHS Homeland Security, but they do not ordinarily do 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.440 what we would think of as street patrol, crowd control, 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.680 that kind of thing, particularly if you're not dealing with 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:35.440 federal property. The streets of Portland are not federal property, 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.360 so let's start with that. Second, of all, most law 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.799 enforcement agencies require that unless you're talking about an officer 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.520 who's working in an undercover setting, which these guys are not. 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.560 At a minimum, the agency is identified on the uniforms, 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.400 and frequently the name of the person is identified on 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.320 the uniform. Same thing with our military, look at and 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.600 even generals have their names on their breast pockets. So 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.280 the fact that there's this level of secrecy about this 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.200 is extraordinarily alarming and I think also potentially dangerous to 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.280 citizenry and to law enforcement officers. To put this in context, 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:11.640 for example, early Monday, dozens of people were gathered at 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:15.480 the Federal building with shields and helmets and bats and 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.520 hockey sticks, and the Feds used tear gas and apparently 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.040 shut projectiles at them. Are they within their rights to 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.880 be defending the federal building in the abstract sense, Yes, 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.639 a federal building is federal property, not necessarily everything around it, 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.920 but sure, But the question is is the level of 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:37.520 force being used here justified by the situation. I mean, 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.720 there's been videos that have gone viral that show these 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.840 sort of mystery federal troopers using vastly excessive force on 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.160 people who pose no threat whatsoever. And when you get 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.760 into things like shooting tear gas and concussion grenades and 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.800 flares and things like that, that is on the very 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:58.280 aggressive side of enforcement. I mean, that is far more 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.000 than just defending and for texting a property. The other 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:04.440 thing that alarms me from a sort of criminal justice 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:09.320 and former prosecutorial standpoint is process or lack of process here. 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.000 I mean, people have a right to know who is 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.240 arresting them and what they are being charged for. And 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.000 that's for a couple of reasons. One, anyone who's charged 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.159 with a crime has the right to challenge the arrest, 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.640 and you need to know who you're being arrested by. 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.559 And two is, in order to make a federal arrest, 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.120 you need probable cause. And there are a couple of 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.279 ways to establish probable cause. You can go to a judge, 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:32.960 you can go to a grand jury, or if an 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.359 officer sees a crime committed right in front of his eyes. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.320 Those are the three ways. But just randomly picking up 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.160 protesters and throwing them into cars and then releasing them 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.800 without charges is completely against the way our system works. 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:49.359 The New Year of Times got ahold of uh memo 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.479 of the Department of Homeland Security that said that these 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.040 people have not been trained in this crowd control. That 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.520 lack of training is a serious concern because crowd control 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.800 is not just something that an officer can into it 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.120 that that you just sort of automatically. No, it's not 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:08.719 common sense. You need specialized training to learn how to 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.680 manage a crowd without escalating that crowd. Right that the 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.640 real job of a good police officer is de escalation, 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.120 taking the temperature down, not rilling things up. And if 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.160 you watch what's happening, I think you can see that 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.440 lack of training. I also want to point out another 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.520 potential danger here, which is people need to know which 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.799 officers are real. I mean, there is a federal crime 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.800 of impersonating a law enforcement officer. I'm not suggesting these 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.279 people are, but if someone wanted to go down to 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.599 the Army Navy store buy some surplus and slap a 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.720 police badge on there. Who's going to know the difference. 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:41.440 And the last thing that I want to say that 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:43.520 goes to an issue of danger is what law enforcement 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:48.000 officers called deconfliction. Whatever you have law enforcement officials who 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.360 may cross path, then it happens all the time. Maybe 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.360 there's local police in an area where the federal FBI, 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:55.440 let's say, is going to be doing a search for it. 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:57.520 You need to give everyone a heads up say hey, 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.360 we're gonna be in your area where cops don't shoot. 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.960 We're not breaking into a house. It's not a robbery. 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.000 And so if you have law enforce from officers who 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.200 are off the record and unidentifiable, that poses a risk 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.520 to those officers and to other law enforcement officers in 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:16.640 are coming up next Oregon's lawsuit. I've been talking to 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.919 former federal prosecutor Ali Hoenig about Oregon suing the US 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:25.400 over the attention of residents during anti racism protests in Portland, 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:29.200 shortly after a judge rule that journalist alleging local police 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:33.000 had assaulted them could add federal agents to their own lawsuits. 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.799 In the States, lawsuit against the Department of Homeland Security 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:40.400 in the U. S. Marshal Service. The Attorney General alleges 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:45.040 they've overstepped their powers in threatening, injuring, or arresting protesters. 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.880 In its lawsuit, Oregon sided two incidents it says took 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:52.839 place in the past week. A peaceful protester was allegedly 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.040 struck in the head with an impact weapon and sustained 0:06:56.080 --> 0:07:00.760 severe injuries, and an unmarked minivan with undercover federal agents 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:05.760 wearing generic green military fatigues allegedly forcibly detained a second 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.320 protester who was later released. Elly tell us about the 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.440 grounds of the lawsuit by the Oregon A G. Yeah, 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:15.560 so there's several lawsuits here, but essentially the essence of 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:20.160 the the Oregan Ages lawsuit is that these secret police 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:25.320 are unlawfully arresting and detaining people, meaning without probable cause, 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:29.280 without proper due process and documentation. And again that I mean, 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.920 this is core Bill of rights constitutional stuff that you 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.120 are entitled to be advised of the charges against you, 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.320 you are entitled to have council appointed, you are entitled 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.560 to defend yourself. You're entitled to enter a plea of 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.560 or not guilty. I mean, all of that is being violated. 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.080 So that's the essence of the AGES lawsuits. There's also 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:51.840 a separate lawsuit that's been filed by the a c 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:56.600 l U complaining about restraints and limits, um and intimidation 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.840 tactics being directed at the media and at other official 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.720 observers from law enforcement or from other sort of governmental 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.120 entities that are trying to figure out what's happening there. 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.800 So I and the U. S Attorney, who is the 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:15.520 chief federal prosecutor for the district, also has requested an 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.200 investigation and assistance. So I think it's a good thing 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.040 that a lot of different people, coming from a lot 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.320 of different levels of government and from outside government are 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:27.320 raising flags here. Suppose the judge, in let's take the 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:32.720 AGES lawsuits, suppose the judge issues a preliminary injunction against 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:36.480 the FEDS. Who's going to enforce that right? Well, I 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.040 think the answer is it would It would fall to 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.320 either the a G or the individual whose rights were violated. 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.720 But violating an injunction from the federal judges is very 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.120 serious business. I mean that could be to contempt findings, 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:50.719 which can be there is a criminal form of contempt. 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.640 So if it gets to that point, then we're talking 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.360 real lawlessness. But but there there could be real consequences 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.120 for people who violate such an order. The President has 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:05.360 said that he sent troops in because it was obvious 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.760 that the Oregon couldn't take care of its its own problems. 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:13.839 When it comes to the president's power versus the power 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.560 of city and state officials who have said we don't 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:19.000 want you here. In fact, the mayor said please leave. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.440 Does the president have the authority to send troops in. 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:27.600 The president does have fairly broad not fairly very broad 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:32.360 authority to deploy federal troops. Now, look, there's an important 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:36.760 distinction here. The president cannot deploy the military, and it 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.160 doesn't appear these people are military, even though their dressed 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:44.200 military style. Cannot deploy the military to perform law enforcement functions, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.520 that's against the law. But that the president can deploy 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.560 the military to keep order, and he can deploy federal 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:55.320 law enforcement to perform law enforcement functions really um very 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:58.320 very broadly. Any and while one way to do that 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:00.960 is upon request from a governor, he doesn't need a 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:02.960 request from a duffer. I mean think back the Little 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:05.600 Rock for example, with the civil rights movement, president sent 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:10.480 in the National Guard against the wishes of segregation governors. UM, So, look, 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.200 there's a legitimate question to hear about whether the president 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.600 should be doing this and whether it's necessary. I think 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.360 it's clearly not necessary. I think it's largely for show. 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:20.680 And like you said, the leaders of the area have 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.400 asked the President not to send people in. But but 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:27.800 legally he does have fairly broad discretion to deploy federal 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.880 agents in this case. The federal response has been that 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:37.280 we're protecting federal buildings and federal officers. So as long 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.360 as they're you know, within the building parameters, are they 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.800 properly there? But once I go into the streets, does 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:48.360 that then start to raise questions. I have no problem 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.679 with defending and protecting federal buildings, federal property, federal assets, 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.480 and there's an argument that a certain area of the 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.280 sort of vicinage around the building is included in that. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.720 But if you're going to do that, do it right, 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.440 do it lawfully, do it transparently. Do it the way 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.920 that virtually all law enforcement functions in this country, which 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:13.000 is a identify yourself, what agency you're representing, and preferably 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:17.000 your name, uh be only make a rest if you 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.560 have established probable cause through a judge through a grand 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:25.080 jury or through directly observing an obvious crime rate in 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:27.760 front of you, and then see give people who you 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.560 arrest their due process. They are entitled legally to be 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.600 advised of the charges against them, to make appearance in court, 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:39.080 to have counsel appointed, etcetera. So saying that well, we're 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.600 just here defending federal assets is fine, but it doesn't 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:47.080 excuse anything in the world being done in order to 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.480 achieve that. You still have to play by the rules 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:54.720 in defending those federal properties and assets. This might end 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.240 before these lawsuits actually find their way through the courts. 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.839 Is the Oregon a G also asking for damages. I 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.719 don't see a request for monetary damages. I think that 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.439 would be hard to prove on a statewide level that 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.679 the a G represents. But I look, I think individuals 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:14.800 who have been wrongly detained, if they can show that, 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.960 absolutely would have a potential lawsuit for damages against the 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.200 federal government. I mean, if somebody can show their rights 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.080 were violated, they were wrongly taken into custody, they were 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:28.080 wrongly arrested, apprehended, their absolutely could be a civil suit 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.880 for monetary damages there and we should also point out 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:36.000 that local authorities are also doing criminal investigations into some 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.160 of these incidents. For example, there was a lot of 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.840 video of former Navy civil engineer who was beaten with 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:46.160 a baton and pepper sprays, so those are also going 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.520 on at the same time. Yeah, yeah, what criminal law 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.480 needs to prevail here, I would say, um, in a 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.559 couple of respects. First of all, if protesters are genuinely 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:01.480 committing crimes assaults, uh, destruy action of property, then those 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:06.240 crimes need to be investigated and prosecuted in accordance with 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:11.840 the law and do process. But certainly if these camouflaged 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:17.280 federal troops or agents are committing crimes, are using unjustified 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.480 levels of force, then they can be charged with assaults 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.840 as well. I mean, there's no immunity from criminal charges 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.760 for police officers or law enforcement aidens who use excessive force. 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.200 There is this thing called qualified immunity which is now 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.320 become a controversial notion, which says that a federal law 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.440 enforcement officer cannot be sued civilly for money damages in 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.920 his personal capacity. But you absolutely are subject to potential 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:47.040 criminal charges if you use excessive force or assault somebody. Um, 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:51.920 without justification. Thanks Eli. That's former federal prosecutor Elie Honig 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.520 of Lowenstein Sandler. Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show. 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.240 The legal battle over the subtoinas for President Trump's financial 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:03.079 records goes on. I'm June Grosso and this is Bloomberg. 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.120 The Supreme Court has already ruled on the grand jury 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:18.560 subpoena and congressional subpoenas for President Trump's financial records, but 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.880 the legal battle is far from over its return to 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.320 the lower courts. The Supreme Court has cleared the way 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.600 for the lower courts to move ahead in the clash 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.600 over the grand jury subpoena. Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vans 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.880 had asked the justices not to wait twenty five plus days, 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:38.440 as they normally do after issuing an opinion. The court 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.320 had rejected Trump's claim of sweeping immunity, while leaving open 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.680 the possibility he could raise more specific objections in the 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.800 lower courts, and Trump is doing just that. Joining me 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:52.560 is Harold crant, A, professor of the Chicago Kent College 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.960 of Law. This seems to be moving fast, how fast 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:02.240 compared to other cases Courts typically waits the twenty five 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.480 days or so to issue a mandate or issue in 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.960 order to lower court to resume jurisdiction over a case 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.840 once it's been decided by the Supreme Court. Here, uh, 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.240 the District Attorney of New York advance decided to ask 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.480 for the case to be returned to New York more 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.520 quickly than that in order to get the whole controversy 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:28.200 of Trump's taxes before the court again to move with 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.160 their case along. And the Supreme Court agreed, largely because 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.200 Trump's attorneys evidently acquiesced. But still we're going to have 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:41.360 at least one more round of litigation, at least in 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:45.800 the New York Federal Court, because Trump's attorney has said 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:50.920 that he's goes claimed probably that this is a phishing expedition, 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:56.800 it's the intent to harass um the president um and 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:01.720 that indeed the subpoena for taxes is too broad. So 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.760 they will have to be a hearing on those queens 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.800 probably at some point in August. It was surprising to 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:13.520 me that Trump's lawyers didn't fight the speeding up of 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:15.720 the case. They agreed to it, and that was a 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.000 big part of why Justice Roberts let it go forward. 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.760 If they're fighting this too, then, noww why would they 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.520 agree to move it along quicker? The question crossed my 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.800 mind as well, and my only speculation is that the 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.280 attorney did not want to take off the Supreme Court 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:36.160 anymore because it's a chance at this case, in some 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.760 form or other, whether a contempt or direct appeal may 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.400 find its way back to the the Supreme Court a second time. 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.440 This is the case involving the subpoena from the New 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:51.080 York Grand Jury Prosecutor Cyrus Vance's office. Remind us what 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:55.520 the Supreme Court said about President Trump being in nearly 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.800 the same situation as any other person with regard to 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:04.400 the subpoena. So the Court first held, and most importantly, 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.280 that the president is not above the law, that the 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.640 president does not have a complete immunity from civil process 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.720 or from criminal process for that matter, while he's in office, 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.440 and that that's true with respect to a subpoena from 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.560 a state investigatory agency, as it would be from a 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.920 federal investigatory agency. But and so holding, the Court did 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.359 say that the president should have the opportunity to contest 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.280 the subpoena on grounds, first of all, available to anybody else, 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.080 such as sects too broad, but also on the grounds 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.400 that somehow the subpoena will interfere with the president's conduct 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:45.439 us his constitutional office of presidency um. In this case, 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.720 uh the Trump's attorney Secolo has suggested that there may 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:54.760 be some valid reasons for challenging subpoena. I mean, I 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.480 think most of us think that they're frivoleates um. But 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.720 there may be one claim that has a bit of mirror, 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.119 which is the fact that they've looked for I believe, 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.280 eight years of tax returns and if the grand jury 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:11.159 is really focusing merely on the hush money paid to 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:16.320 Stormy Daniels by Michael Cone, which was the thesis, that's 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.880 a one or two year process of looking at the taxes, 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.119 if not an eight year But these are the kinds 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:27.000 of issues that will be resolved relatively expeditiously by the 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.399 cord upon reman from the Supreme Court. That was the 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.960 argument that I thought carried the most weight, that the 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:37.960 scope of the subpoena was overbroad, and President Trump's attorney 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:42.400 said that the d A just copied the congressional subpoenas. 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.479 Do you think that's their strongest argument. I do think 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:49.000 that the strongest argument is the question of scope of 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.520 the subpoena. But we don't know exactly what the grand 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.000 jury is investigating. If the grand jury is only investigating 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.960 hush money, obviously that would be triggered with respect to 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:04.600 the Camp Hayne because that's when evidently President Trump paid 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.040 this money and then tried to claim the deduction for 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:10.440 it as a legitimate expense. But on the other hand, 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.160 maybe the grand jury has investigated a pattern of these payments. 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.560 Maybe the grand jury has investigated some other kind of 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:22.040 financial impropriety with respect to the campaign, and so needs 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:25.040 to look at a couple more years of cash returns. 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.320 But I do think it's questionable of where this eight 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.800 year of cash returns came up. They came up with, 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.840 and that may not be directly linked to the investigation 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:39.600 that they're undertaking. You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.639 Grazzo from Bloomberg Radio. I've been talking to Harold Branch, 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.760 professor at the Chicago Camp College of Law, about the 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.679 Supreme Court clearing the lower courts to move ahead in 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.800 a clash over a grand jury subpinia for President Trump's 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:57.920 financial records. From the Manhattan District Attorney Trump's attorneys want 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:03.000 more information about the injury investigation. Grand Jury investigations are 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.040 supposed to be secret. Would the judge allow them to 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.960 get more information? I doubt it. I mean, I think 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.479 the argument by Trump's attorney is that how do we 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.840 know if this is a legitimate investigation and not for 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:21.080 harassment unless we know what the focus of the investigation is. Now, 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:26.600 there are some alternatives here, and for instance, the Advance 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:32.480 could give a overview of the investigation in camera, meaning 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.880 in secret, to the presiding judge and in that way 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:39.439 satisfy the judge that this is not a frivolous or 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:44.280 vexatious attempt to get information about the president. That's a possibility, 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:48.560 So there is. It is extremely rare that someone would 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.800 have the right to know what the grand jury is 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.280 looking into. But there is a kind of kernel here 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:58.480 formed by uh by President fromp lawyers that suggest that 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.480 if you know, we need to have some baseline to 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:06.160 hold that this investigation is not purely for harassment. And 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.960 if that's true, then the question is what will Vance 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.560 be willing to say public or will he be willing 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:18.280 to tell the judge again in private? Um what the 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.680 injury generally is looking into now that remains to be seen. 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.919 Trump's attorneys also indicated that they are going to raise 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:32.240 the claim that there is a political motivation behind the subpoena, 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:35.919 is a desire to harass the president. But this judge 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:40.479 previously found the subpoena to be proper, and he asked 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.280 them whether there were any new facts or different facts 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.840 to suggest the investigation was in bad faith. Does it 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:49.640 seem likely that the judge is just going to affirm 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.080 his prior ruling. Yeah. The argument that this is purely 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:56.359 a frivolous investigation on the on behalf of the New 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.400 York authorities is already been raised. It's already been rejected. Um. 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:02.320 And I think from what we know, just in terms 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:05.320 of the payment to the hushmoney to Stormy Daniels, that 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.879 itself suggests that there is a good faith basis for 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.639 this investigation, and again it might be proper. We simply 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:15.560 don't know. I think the only claim really that that 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:17.920 the Trump's attorney has that may have a little some 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.359 merrita is narrowing down the subpoena to show that there's 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:25.679 at least some relevance or some connection between the years 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:30.840 of tax material sought and the scope of the investigation. 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.040 But that being said, we simply don't know how broad 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.320 the investigation is right now, and there may be other 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:41.040 things that are being swept within the sites of the 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:46.080 prosecutors in New York. Trump's attorneys mentioned an argument that 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.399 it would interfere with his constitutional duties. But didn't the 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.800 Supreme Court take that argument away from the president by 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:56.040 saying he should be treated as any other person would be. 0:22:56.760 --> 0:23:00.040 I think that the Supreme Court let a small, a 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.800 very narrow outlet show that if there's something not in general, 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:08.040 that in general that an investigation would interfere with the 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:11.480 president's conduct of its constitutional responsibilities, but there was something 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:17.919 particular or unique about an investigation which would undermine or 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:22.959 frustrate president's ability to lead. There has been nothing suggested 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:26.840 here whatsoever, and it's impossible to understand how it could 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:31.320 given that these it's not this tax information is being 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:36.440 held by the accountant. It causes no duties on Trump 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:41.280 at all. And indeed, Trump previously promised he would reveal 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:45.320 the text um information to the public. He was nicked 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:49.560 on that um. But but it's unbelievable to think that 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:54.440 there could be a valid claim here that the release 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:58.280 of the tax materials would frustrate the president's ability to 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:01.960 lead the country. During a court hearing, the d A 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:06.000 said that the longer Trump fights, the higher the chance 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:10.120 that the statute of limitations will expire. Let's not let 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:14.160 delay kill this case. Yeah, there is a statue limitations here. 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:16.320 It's a little bit unclear for which crimes because there 0:24:16.320 --> 0:24:19.840 are different setual limitations. Um. And what that leads to. 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.480