1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Hey, girlfriends, it's Anna here. Welcome to the first of 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: four special bonus episodes of The Girlfriend's Jelhouse Lawyer. In 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: these episodes, we'll give you a sneak peek behind the 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: curtain of our production. You'll hear extra interviews and conversations 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: that we gathered while reporting on Kelly's story, and this 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: episode is one of my favorites. Just a warning, this 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: conversation includes a lot about addiction and substance abuse and 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: probably some colorful language. But you'll also get to hear 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: a story of how a mother and daughter survived one 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: tragedy after another, and how, in the end, their struggle 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: brought them together. One day, about three or so years 12 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: ago in Queens, New York, Judge Bruner DBC is sitting 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: in court when she hears a voice. 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 2: He said, Judge, can I speak to you? And I 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: know this is strange. 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: It's an attorney she knows well, and he's looking a 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: little sheepish. 18 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 2: You know, you did the case of Kelly Harnett and 19 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: I know her. I've represented her and she's really very sincere. 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: But she wants to come and see you and thank you. 21 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: It's an unusual request. Defendants don't usually make calls to 22 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: the judges chamber, but of course not all defendants are 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: like Kelly Harnett. 24 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: She did, in fact come to see me in the courtroom. 25 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 2: She came in person, and the officers alerted me that 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 2: there was someone here who wanted to see me, who 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 2: had a dozen roses. 28 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: This isn't just a nice gesture. You'll remember that Kelly 29 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 1: is a devout follower of Saint Herez, a Catholic saint 30 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 1: whose signature token is a rose. Everything Kelly believes and 31 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: holds near to her heart is represented in these flowers. 32 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: If you look behind you, you see that vase with 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: the red roses. They are red silk roses. Those are 34 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: the roses. I still keep them in a vase in chambers. 35 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: And she spoke to me from a distance, and she 36 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 2: came up and she said hello, Judge Debasi, and then 37 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: I just embraced her and hugged her. 38 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: Do you remember what you spoke about. 39 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: Her gratitude mostly was gratitude. She shared with me that 40 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: by not delaying her case, she was able to spend 41 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: time with her mother, who then I think died three 42 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 2: weeks after she was released. So that was her biggest 43 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: gratitude that I didn't delay her case and that as 44 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 2: a result of that, she was able to be with 45 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: her mother when her mom passed. Once you leave Supreme 46 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: Criminal Court, you really don't want to come back, even 47 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 2: if it's with good news. Some do, but she was 48 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: definitely the most enthusiastic and willing, and I'm sure she 49 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: would come back every day if she could. 50 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: I don't doubt that. I still find it hard to 51 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: reckon with the eye idea of a judge physically embracing 52 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: a formally incarcerated person. The system doesn't usually give room 53 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: for that sort of warmth. But just like Kelly isn't 54 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: like all the other defendants, Bruna isn't like all the 55 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: other judges. 56 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: My life experiences, I think now informs how I operate 57 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: in those courts, and I would say now I feel 58 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: more of an insider to understanding the underlying issues that 59 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: bring someone into court. 60 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: Around thirteen years ago, Judge Bruna's son Eric died of 61 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: a drug overdose. Then just a few years later, her 62 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: daughter Lisa nearly ended up going down the same path, 63 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: but this time it was someone else who died because 64 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: of her addiction. In today's episode, I'm going to sit 65 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: down with this mother and daughter who accidentally and tragically 66 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: found themselves on different sides of the law. I'm Anison 67 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: Field and from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts. 68 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: This is the girlfriend's Gelhouse lawyer is Bonus Episode one, 69 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: Lisa and Bruner. 70 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: Marmy can. 71 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: I said, yeah, of course if it was like a fixture, or. 72 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: Is that just daycour right. It's October third, twenty twenty four, 73 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: and I'm sitting in Judge Bruner Dibiazzi's chambers. It should 74 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: have an air of authority to it, maybe even grandiosity, 75 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: but it doesn't. I'm here to see Bruna the judge, 76 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: but I'm also here to see Bruna, the mother who's 77 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: sitting here with her daughter Lisa. They're both kind of 78 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: equal parts warm and brisk, as Queen's natives are wont 79 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: to be. And they're both fussing over what I'm going 80 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: to eat. 81 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: It's an apple here staring at you. 82 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm experiencing the Italian American hospitality. 83 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 84 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: Bruna is on and off the phone to her aging father, 85 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: making sure he made it to his doctor's appointment. After that, 86 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: she facetimes her husband so I can meet him, he's 87 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,799 Speaker 1: also a judge, and as I'm mildly shocked to learn 88 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: a leather wearing biker, Bruna and Lisa are being gorgeous together, 89 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: both worried that the other hasn't eaten, needs water. There's 90 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: a purposefulness to their interactions because they're new. Lisa only 91 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: just got out of prison a month ago, and you 92 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: can tell that they're still figuring out how to be 93 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: together again in real time. So what is your relationship 94 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: like as mother and daughter? 95 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: I can only our daughter, and what is our relationship like? 96 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 4: Our relationship is wonderful. 97 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: It's probably going to be impossible for me not to 98 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 3: get emotional. It's very open, tremendous communication, one of trust, 99 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 3: and I emphasize those things because it wasn't always like 100 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 3: that on my end. You know, I have a mother 101 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 3: that is loving and giving, sacrificing, and I know that 102 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: I was very resistant to that for a long time. 103 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 3: And when I was it was when I was in 104 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: active addiction, and I couldn't even understand why I was 105 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: so resistant to that. Her relationship was one of gratitude. 106 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: I think today I think so too. 107 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: We'll get into why and how Lisa's addiction began to 108 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: take hold and impact their relationship. But first I want 109 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: to put an image in your mind of a young 110 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: Bruna Dbse born in Manhattan and raised in Queens. Could 111 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: we understand a little bit more about your life kind 112 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: of growing up so we can know who has ended 113 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: up at this desk. 114 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: My dad was a New York City cup, very strict. 115 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: I always say the reason I went to law school 116 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: is because the only thing I was allowed to do 117 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: was study. 118 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: But back when she's still a student, Bruna almost takes 119 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: another path. 120 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: I was a psychology major. I wanted to help people. 121 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: I wanted to become a psychologists, a psychiatrists more in 122 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: that area. 123 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: It all changes after she gets what should be a 124 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: prestigious internship with a New York State senator. 125 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: All the young ladies who were in the internship program 126 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 2: were really assigned to do the secretarial functions in the 127 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 2: senator's office. And I remember watching all the men who 128 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: had the positions of authority and who were lawyers, and 129 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: I remember coming back home to my father and saying 130 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: to him, I could do what they do. Daddy, and 131 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 2: I applied to law school really like at the last 132 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: minute in my final year of college and that just 133 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: changed the path of my life. 134 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: Love that. So you kind of got here as an 135 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: act of stubborn defiance against the men, you know. I. Yes, 136 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,239 Speaker 1: earlier in Bruno's career, she was already working on improving 137 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: the court system, bringing in a bit of that drive 138 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: to help people from her psychology. 139 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: Days before I became a judge, I was chief of 140 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: staff to a statewide administrative judge, and in that role, 141 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: we were tasked with creating in the New York state 142 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: court system, problem solving courts. And problem solving courts was 143 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 2: really a unique concept to address the underlying issue that 144 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: would bring somebody into court. We were working on mental 145 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: health courts, we were working on creating domestic violence courts, 146 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: drug courts, veterans courts, adolescent courts. 147 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: And when you say domestic violence courts, youth courts and stuff, 148 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: that means that those are courts that are set up 149 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: specifically to deal with just domestic violence cases. 150 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct. I was helping to create training programs 151 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: and to begin these projects, and at that time they 152 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: didn't seem to touch my life. 153 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: But that all changes when Bruno's son Eric dies in 154 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: twenty twelve following a battle with drug addiction. This family, 155 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: who from the outside must have looked untouchable, is suddenly 156 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: blown apart. 157 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 2: Probably the greatest fear of someone has is to lose 158 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: a child. I remember someone once said to me, well, 159 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: I lost my son. I don't know how you go forward. 160 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: I don't know how you could, you know, continue living. 161 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: So what do you do now? Do you fall apart 162 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: or do you pause, think about it and decide to 163 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: pick yourself up and move forward. 164 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 3: I think we were all grieving in different ways, and 165 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 3: in some ways separate, and then slowly I started getting 166 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: into drinking, and then that led into drug use as well. 167 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 3: I was severely addicted to alcohol and severely addicted to cocaine. 168 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: I didn't know I was making the decisions I was making. 169 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 3: I just I was trying to survive and navigate through pain. 170 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: And I remember saying to my mother when Eric was 171 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 3: still alive and his addiction was just taking over. I 172 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 3: remember thinking, He's going to end up in prison, and 173 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 3: I don't know how I'm going to be able to handle. 174 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 3: I'll be scared thinking about what that would be like 175 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 3: for him every day. And then fast forward in here 176 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 3: I was inside a jail. 177 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: So this is not a late conversation. This is heavy. 178 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: This is are you guys doing okay? 179 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we're I mean, you know, we're open and 180 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: we're honest. 181 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: On October thirtieth, twenty nineteen, Lisa gets into her car 182 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: after spending the evening in a bar. On the drive home, 183 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: Lisa's driving eighty five in a forty mile an hour zone. 184 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: She's twice the legal alcohol limit. She has cocaine in 185 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: her system, and the floor of her Chevrolet Silverado is 186 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: littered with bags of it. At one point, Lisa swerves violently, 187 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: she says, to avoid an oncoming car. Struggling to regain control, 188 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: she collides with a cyclist. His name is John James 189 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: Uzma Quintero. John's taken to the hospital, but his injuries 190 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: are too severe. He's pronounced dead that same day. He 191 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: leaves behind a daughter back home in Columbia who had 192 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: been sending money to that he made from his job 193 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: at the seven eleven. 194 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 3: When I committed my crime and mister Usma Quintero died 195 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 3: because of it. 196 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 4: It changed everything. 197 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: Lisa pleads guilty to multiple charges, including vehicular manslaughter and 198 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: aggravated driving while intoxicated, but due to COVID nineteen restrictions. 199 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: Her sentencing is delayed for more than a year and 200 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: a half. It's not until September of twenty twenty one 201 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: that she's back in court for that. Her mother, Brunna, 202 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: is by her side. 203 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 3: Remember his brother and his mother in the courtroom. And 204 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 3: I watched my parents lose a child, and he was 205 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 3: a child. 206 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: There are always two sides that grieve, and we had 207 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: tremendous grief, and so you know, for me, my grief 208 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 2: for the family was a knowing one as a parent 209 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: who lost a child, I understand from having experienced it myself, 210 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: So it was hard. We grieve. We still grieve for them. 211 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: On September ninth, twenty twenty one, Lisa is sentenced to 212 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: three to nine years in state prison. 213 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 2: You don't really want anyone else to experience the pain 214 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: and horror of that, and those were three years that 215 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: I lived that. 216 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 3: Prison is difficult physically, mentally, emotionally, you get stripped spiritually, 217 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 3: it's loud, it's like chaos going on, and you know, 218 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 3: you're always in survival mode in some aspect. 219 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: At first, there were times when I couldn't even hug her, 220 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: so I would see her but we couldn't have physical contact, 221 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: and so that to me was hard. 222 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 3: I remember the first time I got a hug from you, 223 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 3: and it startled me. 224 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 4: I haven't hugged somebody. 225 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 3: I haven't gotten hugged from somebody, and I don't know 226 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 3: what it was six months. At that point, I. 227 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: Was able to visit my daughter because I'm in a 228 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: different position. But it was obvious to me there were 229 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: hundreds of women in the facility, and on visiting days 230 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: there were maybe at most eight to ten women who 231 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: had visitors. And I did learn from my daughter that 232 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: there are some women who don't get packages, who don't 233 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: get commissary money, and so I mean think about that too, 234 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: you know, and think about the fact that they make 235 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: I don't know how much twenty five cents an hour, no, 236 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: fourteen fourteen cents an hour, and if they have, if 237 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 2: they have fines, restitution, restitution is deducted from the fourteen 238 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: fifteen cents an hour they make, so half of that 239 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: or a percentage of that goes to the fines. And 240 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 2: what they're left was with that money to make purchases 241 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 2: and commissary if they're not getting packages. 242 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: That's impossible. Bruna visits Lisa as much as she can, 243 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: and when she's not there physically, she makes sure she's 244 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: always there at the other end of the phone. 245 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: I would speak to her every morning. I would speak 246 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 2: to her in the evening. But I assure you I 247 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: was the only judge in the building who was receiving 248 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: calls from prison, and I would always make sure I 249 00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: took those calls. 250 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: Lisa tells Bruna about all the things she's getting up 251 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: to to pass the time. She'd already gotten clean because 252 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: her crime had happened around COVID. The case moved really slowly, 253 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: but it meant she could spend a year in rehab 254 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: before prison. 255 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 3: I immersed myself into recovery, and it's a very scary time, 256 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 3: but I just took all the suggestions and I wanted 257 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 3: to live differently. 258 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: Once Lisa got to prison, she just wanted to be useful. 259 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 3: I stayed very, very busy while I was incarcerated. Any 260 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 3: type of positive program. I put myself out there, and 261 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: I applied myself and worked hard to become a part of. 262 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: She did welding as she was part of the outside 263 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: ground crew. 264 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: I was only one of three individuals out of the 265 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 3: whole population. 266 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 4: It's a very trusted position. 267 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: And most excitingly, she rehabilitated shelter dogs. 268 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 4: Also for that, I had. 269 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 3: The up opportunity to go back to school. I became 270 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 3: part of the BPI program that Bard offers. 271 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: Bard is Bard College and BPI is their Prison Initiative program. 272 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 4: I earned thirty six college credits. 273 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 3: It was very important for me once I immersed in 274 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 3: that program to see that I doubted my level of 275 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: intelligence as a woman for a very long time, and 276 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 3: it reminded me that I am an intelligent, thinking woman. 277 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 3: And Bard was wonderful. The way the professors interact with 278 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 3: us as students was very like we were their equals, 279 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 3: and that is difficult to find in the prison environment 280 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 3: when you're wearing green. 281 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: Wearing green, I can't imagine it's something Lisa ever thought 282 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: she'd do. She's a judge's daughter, and yet here she 283 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: is surrounded by the sort of women her mother sends 284 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: to prison, and she's starting to realize they're not so 285 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: different from her. 286 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 3: I have yet to have come across a woman on 287 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 3: the inside that didn't have a trauma or some relation 288 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 3: to addiction. Most women are in there because they committed 289 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 3: their crime. While an active addiction and a lot of 290 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 3: domestic violence cases too, a lot of survivors. 291 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 4: Everyone has a story. 292 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 3: I've met women that have been in there for twenty 293 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: twenty five years, and these women I just like, how 294 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 3: do you get through this? It was very difficult for 295 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 3: me at the end of my sentence, and I'll say 296 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 3: I only did three years compared to some of these women. 297 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 3: That was hard for me. In the end, I was 298 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 3: starting to break. If the point was to break me, 299 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 3: I was getting there. 300 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: Next Lisa comes home and Judge Bruna gets her daughter back. 301 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 3: Today's October third, and I was released on September ninth, nope, 302 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 3: September fifth, so a little less than a month. 303 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: And how are you finding it? 304 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 3: So I'm good, I am good, I'm great. I'm very 305 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 3: grateful to be with my family. I'm very grateful to 306 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: be back home. And so now that I'm out, you 307 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 3: don't necessarily have somebody telling you you have to be 308 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 3: here this time. This is when you eat, this is 309 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 3: when you lock in, this is when you do those things. 310 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 3: And I have lots of lots of love and support 311 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 3: coming in, which I cherish. So it's a little bit 312 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 3: overwhelming in the best way, if that makes sense. 313 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a little sense. You're like figuring out 314 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: how to be your own autonomous human being again on 315 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: the outside of freedom. 316 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 3: And yeah, like in a lot of ways, yes, like 317 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 3: in a lot of ways, your choices are made for you. 318 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 4: On the inside. 319 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 3: You're told where to go, when to go, and what 320 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 3: to do and so so of course I'm under supervision 321 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 3: and I welcome that. But now you know, I'm free 322 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 3: to answer back certain people or not, or your day 323 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 3: to day tasks. So trying to open up a bank 324 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 3: account or you know, like I said, walk the dogs, 325 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 3: you know, trying to train my dogs old dogs, new tricks. 326 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,719 Speaker 2: So, yes, the dogs aren't anything new. When Lisa went in, 327 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 2: she had two dogs and she left them with us, 328 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 2: and I have a dog, so we became a family 329 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,479 Speaker 2: of three dogs. Wow, mom took on the dogs. 330 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: It's busy home. 331 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 4: It's a lot going on. 332 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And Brina, how has it felt having Lisa home? 333 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: I probably cleaned the house one hundred times before she 334 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 2: came home, and Lisa kept reminding me that no matter 335 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: how many times I cleaned it, it was a hundred times 336 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 2: better than where she was coming from. Still, I wanted 337 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 2: everything to be just so for her. 338 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you've got your daughter back? 339 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 2: I do? In fact, that was what I've always said, 340 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: I feel like I got my daughter back. I said 341 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: that to her once. I said that to her when 342 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: she was in recovery. I said, I feel like I 343 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 2: have my daughter back. And she actually said to me, 344 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 2: you don't have your daughter back, Mom, because the person 345 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: I am now never existed before. You are a different person. 346 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 2: I mean, how can you not when things happened to 347 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: you in your life? How can you not? You know, 348 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 2: life changes us, life moves forward. 349 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: I guess like one of my final questions is, Bruna, 350 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: HOWE has this affected your work as a judge? Has 351 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: it affected it at all? 352 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 2: Having had an incarcerated daughter has has informed my decisions 353 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 2: now about the length of a sentence individuals should receive. 354 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: I don't know that it's the length of a sentence 355 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 2: that rehabilitates or breaks a person. I feel now, with 356 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 2: all the knowledge that I have about addiction, about making 357 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: services available to the young kids who appear in my court, 358 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 2: and not just the kids. If I think, and I 359 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 2: strongly support that if someone has an underlying addiction, our 360 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: resource is are better spent in putting the resources into 361 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: treating the addiction, especially someone who wants to be treated generally. 362 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,360 Speaker 1: Do you have sort of like ambitions for the future. 363 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: I know there's a lot that you're sorting out, so 364 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: you do like a fifteen year plan. 365 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 3: But yeah, there's so much that I know about myself 366 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 3: now that I am sober and in recovery for just 367 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 3: about five years. 368 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 4: You know, God willing we take it one day at 369 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 4: a time. 370 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 2: You know. 371 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 3: I think I'll always be somebody that's resilient, relentless, striving 372 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 3: for better. Of course for myself, but because that helps 373 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 3: people around me that I love. But it's very important 374 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: for me to stay of service. 375 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: Lisa's working at a place called Release Recovery. It's where 376 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 1: she got clean before her prison sentence. 377 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 3: I would love to turn that into a career. I 378 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: would love to see in the recovery world. I mean, 379 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 3: one of the reasons why I stay in a twelve 380 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 3: step program and go to meetings is to give to 381 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 3: those what was so freely given to me. Right Like 382 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 3: I remember when I was first getting sober and people 383 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 3: showed up for me in a way that I could 384 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 3: not show up for myself, and that made all the difference. 385 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 3: And they sat with me and they listened to me, 386 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 3: and they cared for me, and that has carried me. 387 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 4: So if I can. 388 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 3: Continue on that path, that would continue, you know, a 389 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 3: world beyond my wildest dreams. 390 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: That's amazing. And Brunner, I know the perspective is a 391 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: little different as a mother. 392 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: So what would you like for Lisa the same? I 393 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 2: support her vision. I love her vision. I think it's beautiful. 394 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 2: And she has taught me also that to value every 395 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: day that's a good day. And you know, and so 396 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: today is a good day. I thank you for being 397 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 2: with us, and I thank you for giving me the 398 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: opportunity to hear these words from my daughter. 399 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: The pain that both Bruna and Lisa have been through 400 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: separately together is tangible. You can hear it in their voices, 401 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: and I can see it in the way that they 402 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: look at each other when they're speaking. But I also 403 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: see a deep, persevering love between a mother and a daughter, 404 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: between a judge and a former prisoner. And now I'm 405 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: going to get a little bit woo woo here, but 406 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: just indulge me. Something I've come to believe deeply during 407 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: the making of this podcast. Series is that every extra 408 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: turn that we get to spend on this silly little 409 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: planet is a blessing. It's why it must be taken 410 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: seriously when that opportunity, the opportunity of life is taken 411 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: from someone. But it also means that we have to 412 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: grant people like Lisa the opportunity to actually live too, 413 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: to grow and to move on. Judge Dbs puts it 414 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 1: a bit more succinctly. 415 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 2: I say to the kids in my court that we 416 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: all fall down in life, but what matters is what 417 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: you do when you pick yourself up, Because remember, what 418 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 2: is possible is greater than what is past. 419 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: Look to the future because you can't change the past, 420 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: but what if we can change how people look at it. 421 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: In our next bonus episode, I delve into a case 422 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: that at one point see clean cut woman violently attacks 423 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: man and admits it. But years later, the way people 424 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: and the law look at this case has changed. So 425 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: buckle up because next week I give you my most 426 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: challenging case study yet. And I asked, what should the 427 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: state have done with Tina. 428 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 5: I'm looking at this grease boil and I'm still thinking 429 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 5: of not just him, per se. It was about everything 430 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 5: in life. I'm Backgrountrolls. I've disappointed so many people that 431 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 5: don't know I'm backgn Rolls again. I remember putting the 432 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 5: part down on It radiated like I had two voices. 433 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 5: One was saying, don't do this, this is so wrong, 434 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 5: and another like fuck that. 435 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: The Girlfriend's Gelhouse Lawyer is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts. 436 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: For more from novel, visit novel dot Audio. The show 437 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: is hosted by me Annasinfield and is written and produced 438 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: by me and Lee Meyer, with additional production from Jako 439 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: Taivich and Michael Jinno. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr. 440 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: The editors are Georgia Moody and me Annasinfield. Production management 441 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: from Shie Houston, Joe Savage, and Charlotte Wolfe. Our fact 442 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: checker is Daniel Suleiman. Sound design, mixing and scoring by 443 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision by me alis Infield, 444 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: Lee Meyer and Nicholas Alexander. Original music composed by Nicholas Alexander, 445 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: Daniel Kempson and Louisa Gerstein. Story development by Nell Gray 446 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: Andrews and Willard Foxton. Creative director of novel. Max O'Brien 447 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: and Craig Strachan are executive producers for Novel, and Katrina 448 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 1: Norvell and Nikki Etor are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts, 449 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: and the marketing lead is Alison Cantor. Thanks also to 450 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: Carrie Lieberman and the whole team at WME.