Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Jay here. My wife and I have
Speaker 1: had so much fun creating our own sparkling tea Juni,
Speaker 1: and I've got big news for you. It's at Target
Speaker 1: and we'd love your support. If you can go out
Speaker 1: grab a Juny, You'll be adding adaptagens and new tropics
Speaker 1: into your life with mood boosting properties aimed at promoting
Speaker 1: a balanced and happy mind. Through our commitment to our
Speaker 1: wellness journey and striving to fuel our bodies with the
Speaker 1: healthiest ingredients, It's been our purpose to make healthy choices
Speaker 1: accessible for all, which is why Juni is now on
Speaker 1: shelves at Target. So head to our store locator at
Speaker 1: Drinkjuni dot com and find Juni at a Target near you.
Speaker 2: We have this saying we're burying our unfinished business. We
Speaker 2: date our unfinished business too. If you're not doing the work,
Speaker 2: you're going to be behind. Therapist's best selling author Loory Gotlief.
Speaker 1: What would you say to someone who's saying, I have
Speaker 1: to kind of compromise and make sure this is the
Speaker 1: one because I have to get to that point, because
Speaker 1: I want to be in a relationship. I'm going to
Speaker 1: get the pick of the bunch because I'm thirty five
Speaker 1: years old and I haven't found someone.
Speaker 2: If you are not in a place where you want
Speaker 2: to be with a relationship, you have to understand why.
Speaker 1: Am I behind for being single? At twenty eight, the
Speaker 1: number one health and wellness podcast.
Speaker 2: Jay Sheidy, Jay Sheddy See Only Ja Sheet.
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Welcome back to you on purpose. I am
Speaker 1: so grateful that you're here with me today. Thank you
Speaker 1: for lending me your ears and guys for the next
Speaker 1: few moments as we dive into how you can become happier, healthier,
Speaker 1: and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favorites.
Speaker 1: You absolutely love it whenever she's on the show. We've
Speaker 1: obviously reached out already to you for your questions for
Speaker 1: her as well. I'm talking about your favorite therapist, Laurie Guttlieb,
Speaker 1: saga therapist and New York Times best selling author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has sold nearly
Speaker 1: two million copies and is currently being adapted as a
Speaker 1: television series. In addition to a clinical practice, she's the
Speaker 1: co host of the popular Dear Therapist podcast. If you're
Speaker 1: not subscribed already, make sure you go and do that.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to on Purpose, Lurie Cutleeve. Laurie, it's great
Speaker 1: to have you back.
Speaker 2: It's so great to be here, Jake.
Speaker 1: Honestly, every time you come in here and we have
Speaker 1: these conversations, they just go crazy viral online. People love
Speaker 1: your advice, they love your insight. They always want you back,
Speaker 1: And I'm so thankful to you that you always choose
Speaker 1: to come back. So it means a lot to me
Speaker 1: that you're back here with me.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1: We've done what we did last time because people loved
Speaker 1: it so much. We've gone out to our audience, gone
Speaker 1: out to our community. I've even reached out to some
Speaker 1: friends and I've crowdsourced all of their challenges, all of
Speaker 1: their issues, all of their real life experiences that they're
Speaker 1: going through. And some of these people don't have access
Speaker 1: to therapists. Some of these people maybe can't afford it.
Speaker 1: Some of these people maybe even have therapists but are
Speaker 1: still struggling trying to figure it out. And so I
Speaker 1: love the fact that we can use you as our
Speaker 1: community therapist and learn from you. So I want to
Speaker 1: dive straight in.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: One of the biggest questions I'm hearing and getting from
Speaker 1: people in my community and audience. Is am I behind
Speaker 1: for being single at twenty eight?
Speaker 2: Hmmm? You know, it's so interesting because I think that
Speaker 2: we tend to compare ourselves so much to other people,
Speaker 2: especially with social media. You know, we look at you know,
Speaker 2: what is everybody else doing at my age? Is what
Speaker 2: is the right thing? And you are exactly where you
Speaker 2: need to be if you are doing the work. If
Speaker 2: you're not doing the work, you're going to be behind.
Speaker 2: And what I mean by doing the work is if
Speaker 2: you are not in a place where you want to
Speaker 2: be with a relationship, you have to understand why. So
Speaker 2: are you examining what has not worked yet? Why if
Speaker 2: I am single and I don't want to be single,
Speaker 2: what can I be doing differently? And so I think
Speaker 2: that's the important work. So you're not behind at all.
Speaker 2: In fact, you're probably ahead of people who are in
Speaker 2: relationships who have not and the work and maybe aren't
Speaker 2: in the right relationship or are in a relationship that's
Speaker 2: not going to last or isn't going well.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's such a hard thing to face,
Speaker 1: right because we think the problem is external to us,
Speaker 1: and what you're saying is well, actually the work needs
Speaker 1: to be done internally, and so often we're trying to
Speaker 1: solve and shift and construct what's happening around of us
Speaker 1: rather than looking inward. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1: Why is it that we struggle to actually do the work?
Speaker 1: What does that look like?
Speaker 2: I think it's so much easier when we talk to
Speaker 2: our friends, and you know, I've talked about the difference
Speaker 2: between idiot compassion and why is compassion before idiot compassion
Speaker 2: is you say to your friend, look what happened on
Speaker 2: this date, or look what happened with this person and
Speaker 2: they say, yeah, you're right, they're wrong, and we never
Speaker 2: learn or grow from that right because yes, there might
Speaker 2: be something that the other person did, but also what
Speaker 2: was your role in that interaction? A relationship is all
Speaker 2: about relating, So what was your role in the dance
Speaker 2: that you're doing with this person? And what you get
Speaker 2: in therapy is you get wise compassion where we hold
Speaker 2: up a mirror to you and we help you to
Speaker 2: see something about what your role is, maybe something you
Speaker 2: haven't been willing or able to see, but that's so
Speaker 2: important so you don't repeat these situations where you're in
Speaker 2: this pattern and then you wonder, why do I keep
Speaker 2: ending up with a person who doesn't listen to me,
Speaker 2: or a person where I don't feel seen, or where
Speaker 2: I can't be myself, or where we have a lot
Speaker 2: of volatility, or where this person's really avoidant. Why am
Speaker 2: I always with people who avoid or what makes me avoid?
Speaker 2: And I don't talk to the person about what I
Speaker 2: want or what I need. So that's the work that's
Speaker 2: really important. So you're not behind if you're single at
Speaker 2: twenty eight. It's part of the process. If you're doing
Speaker 2: the work, you're much closer than you've ever been to
Speaker 2: finding the person that you want to be with.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that. I remember talking about
Speaker 1: it in my book that I wrote called Eight Rules
Speaker 1: of Love, and it was this idea of relationship karma,
Speaker 1: and I was using the concept of karma from the
Speaker 1: East in tradition to understand that karma is every action
Speaker 1: has a reaction, and it was can you pinpoint what
Speaker 1: action you've taken in order to end up in the
Speaker 1: same experience with a different person. So as you were
Speaker 1: saying that whether you keep attracting an avoidant person, you
Speaker 1: keep attracting someone who doesn't listen to you. You keep
Speaker 1: attracting someone who is interested for a month, but then
Speaker 1: disconnect or whatever it may be, and it's like, where,
Speaker 1: what action have you taken in your choice, in your
Speaker 1: curation of this individual, in your approach to this individual
Speaker 1: that has potentially led to that.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's so spot on. We know we have this
Speaker 2: saying we bury our unfinished business. We date our unfinished
Speaker 2: business too. So if you, let's say, earlier in your life,
Speaker 2: you were around someone who you know was neglectful, somebody
Speaker 2: who drank too much, somebody who lost their temper, somebody
Speaker 2: who wasn't honest, somebody who wasn't reliable. We think when
Speaker 2: we're dating as adults, like I want the opposite of that.
Speaker 2: I want someone where I feel safe, secure, there's trust.
Speaker 2: But what happens is unconsciously, Again, if we haven't done
Speaker 2: the work our unfinished business, we actually are unconsciousness. Oh
Speaker 2: you look familiar, come closer. So on the surface, they
Speaker 2: don't look like that person, but then when you get
Speaker 2: to know them, you're a month in, you're three months in,
Speaker 2: you're six months in, you think, wow, that person reminds
Speaker 2: me of someone. This person feels so familiar, And that's
Speaker 2: why I was drawn to this person. It turns out
Speaker 2: this person is very much like what I grew up with,
Speaker 2: is very much like the person who hurt me growing up.
Speaker 2: So if you do the work, you're able to see, oh,
Speaker 2: that person, I see why I'm drawn to them, but
Speaker 2: I'm not drawn to them in a healthy way. And
Speaker 2: then if you do even more work, you're not even
Speaker 2: drawn to those people anymore. Now you're drawn to healthy people,
Speaker 2: stable people, flexible people, emotionally generous people, people whose values
Speaker 2: align with yours. That's who you're drawn to. So you
Speaker 2: have to do the work.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I'm so glad that you've made that the
Speaker 1: reminder because I think often we validate and make people
Speaker 1: feel like it's okay that they're single, and I think
Speaker 1: you are doing that, But I think this is a
Speaker 1: step further, which is like you are behind if you're
Speaker 1: not actually learning from the experiences that got you here
Speaker 1: and you're not actually refining it. Another pressure that I
Speaker 1: feel that mounts on people as time goes on. It's
Speaker 1: so fascinating to me that we're in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: We hope that we're living in a society that is
Speaker 1: letting go of timelines. That's letting go of gender roles,
Speaker 1: that's letting go of these boundaries and limits that are
Speaker 1: placed on us because of what age we are and
Speaker 1: what gender we are and everything else. But I find
Speaker 1: that internally, we all actually still carry a lot of
Speaker 1: those pressures. And another big question for our community was
Speaker 1: if I do get into a relationship in my early thirties,
Speaker 1: do I now have to rush things like do I? Often?
Speaker 1: What I heard was people were saying, I feel like
Speaker 1: I have to feel like this person is the one
Speaker 1: because I'm running out of time, and I have this
Speaker 1: fear that the pool is getting so much smaller as
Speaker 1: I get into my early thirties that I'm going to
Speaker 1: have the worst pick because no good people are going
Speaker 1: to be left. Now, we know that all of these
Speaker 1: things are not factually true, they're not data backed, like
Speaker 1: these are ideas, but these are the kind of thoughts
Speaker 1: that I'm hearing from people who are entering that space.
Speaker 1: What would you say to someone who's saying, Laurie, I
Speaker 1: feel I have to rush things. I have to kind
Speaker 1: of compromise and make sure this is the one because
Speaker 1: I have to get to that point because I want
Speaker 1: to be in a relationship, and actually I fear that
Speaker 1: I'm going to get the worst pick of the bunch
Speaker 1: because I'm thirty five years old and i haven't found someone.
Speaker 2: We literally just had someone like this on the podcast,
Speaker 2: and she felt like, I have to decide right away
Speaker 2: if this is the person, and if there's any issues here,
Speaker 2: I have to leave right away, as opposed to understanding
Speaker 2: that if she doesn't understand what these issues are about,
Speaker 2: she will just repeat that in the next relationship. I mean,
Speaker 2: these were not you know, there's certain kinds of issues
Speaker 2: that are red flags. These were not red flag issues.
Speaker 2: These were normal relational types of things, communication types of things.
Speaker 2: And what we told her was, you need to slow
Speaker 2: down in order to save time. And it sounds counterintuitive
Speaker 2: because people think, wait a minute, I need to hurry
Speaker 2: up in order to save time. I don't want to
Speaker 2: waste time. But you need to slow down so that
Speaker 2: you can say what is right in front of me
Speaker 2: right now. If I put that kind of pressure on myself,
Speaker 2: I'm going to make decisions for all kinds of the
Speaker 2: wrong reasons. So I'm going to make them because you know,
Speaker 2: we talk about the difference sort of the head and
Speaker 2: the heart you're going to make head decisions instead of
Speaker 2: heart decisions. You need both. My son taught me this. Actually,
Speaker 2: he was saying, I've been making too many head decisions
Speaker 2: and I need to make more heart decisions. And it's
Speaker 2: about how do you find the balance between those two things.
Speaker 2: So what we told her, this woman on the podcast,
Speaker 2: was we said, why don't the two of you go
Speaker 2: to therapy for let's say you put a time limit
Speaker 2: on it. We're going to go for six months. And
Speaker 2: she said six months. I don't have six months to waste.
Speaker 2: And I said, it's not going to be a waste.
Speaker 2: No matter whether you stay in this relationship or you
Speaker 2: go to a different relationship, you're going to learn so
Speaker 2: much about yourself in relationship that you can't learn if
Speaker 2: you're not in a relationship, because you need to be
Speaker 2: able to have these interactions to understand what they trigger
Speaker 2: in you, what they bring up in you, and you
Speaker 2: can't do that in isolation. So many people say I
Speaker 2: need to completely understand myself before I can go and date,
Speaker 2: and I say, you're going to learn so much about yourself.
Speaker 2: You want the best tutorial on who you are and
Speaker 2: your operating instructions and what makes you tick. Get in
Speaker 2: a relationship with somebody, you will be pushed and challenged
Speaker 2: in ways that you aren't challenged when it's just you
Speaker 2: sitting there thinking. So we said to her, go to
Speaker 2: couple's therapy for six months, and then you will learn
Speaker 2: so much about yourself and you will know so much
Speaker 2: more about whether you two are the right combination, are
Speaker 2: the right couple. And so we do follow ups. We
Speaker 2: do your follow ups. Since she came back a year later,
Speaker 2: and she said, I was going to leave this person,
Speaker 2: and I am so glad that I didn't because I
Speaker 2: learned that some of this was me and I didn't
Speaker 2: have the maturity. I didn't understand a lot of things,
Speaker 2: and I grew so much, and I am so in
Speaker 2: love with this person. And I would have left because
Speaker 2: I was panicked. Now it could have ended up the
Speaker 2: other way too, that she left, which would have also
Speaker 2: been good if it wasn't the right person, and then
Speaker 2: she would have found the right person because of the
Speaker 2: work that she did. So I would say to these
Speaker 2: people who feel like I have to hurry, I have
Speaker 2: to know right away. Relax, slow down, give yourself a timeline.
Speaker 2: Don't stay in that relationship for five years and be
Speaker 2: ambivalent about what you want to do, but slow down,
Speaker 2: give yourself a year of doing the work with this person,
Speaker 2: and then you will know so much more about yourself.
Speaker 1: Okay, I am so excited about this because we've got
Speaker 1: the first ever merch drop for on Purpose. It's finally here,
Speaker 1: and for what mental health? Today we're doing an exclusive
Speaker 1: limited edition drop with all the proceeds going to the
Speaker 1: National Alliance on Mental Illness NAMI. So now you can
Speaker 1: wear your on Purpose merch, listen to the podcast and
Speaker 1: know that you two are having an impact. I want
Speaker 1: to thank you so much in advance. I can't wait
Speaker 1: to see all of your pictures wearing the merch. Their's sweatshirts,
Speaker 1: a hat, t shirts. Check it out on our website
Speaker 1: jshetdyshop dot com. That's Jshettishop dot com. And remember, one
Speaker 1: hundred percent of the proceeds go to NAMI. Some people
Speaker 1: are good for you now and some people may become
Speaker 1: good for you forever. But this idea that if someone's
Speaker 1: good for me now and they're not forever, then I
Speaker 1: don't want them now isn't the healthiest idea, because the
Speaker 1: growth you might make with this person who may not
Speaker 1: be your forever person, could be so powerful and useful
Speaker 1: in your forever relationship, and you won't know that until
Speaker 1: you're actually getting to know them. I had a friend
Speaker 1: recently who went through that scenario where they felt that
Speaker 1: this individual they were with was helping them grow, helping
Speaker 1: them understand themselves. They were doing the same back, and
Speaker 1: they realized during the course of that relationship that this
Speaker 1: wasn't the one that was going to be the marriage
Speaker 1: and the long term commitment. But they feel like they
Speaker 1: both grew so much as individuals. And you constantly in
Speaker 1: this conversation so far, you've talked about doing the deep
Speaker 1: work on your own, You've talked about working with that person.
Speaker 1: What's really interesting is that after all this time, and
Speaker 1: no matter how many books we read, and no matter
Speaker 1: how many podcasts we listen to, there's still this belief
Speaker 1: that when we meet the person, it will be easy,
Speaker 1: it'll be simple, and everything will just make sense. I
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of people also who found love
Speaker 1: in a magical way, will say things like when you know,
Speaker 1: you know, and you just feel it, and then people
Speaker 1: feel like they're have to find that feeling and that
Speaker 1: love should be easy and simple and flow. I'm assuming
Speaker 1: from what you're saying so far that it's not really
Speaker 1: the only way. It can require work. It does require work.
Speaker 1: I've been with my wife for eleven years now, and
Speaker 1: I can honestly say that some parts have been really
Speaker 1: easy and some parts have required work. And I believe
Speaker 1: we work on it consistently and that's why it becomes
Speaker 1: easier than it would become harder. But I feel like
Speaker 1: there's this Disney magic belief we still all carry so
Speaker 1: deep rooted in us that love should be easy. What
Speaker 1: would you say to someone who is carrying that experience
Speaker 1: or that vision of love in their heart and mind? Right?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, you know, when we look at
Speaker 2: attachment styles, if you have a secure attachment, sometimes it
Speaker 2: is easier for you to know whether this person is
Speaker 2: going to be someone you want to pursue long term.
Speaker 2: But even then things will come up. But also many
Speaker 2: of us are not securely attached, meaning that we had
Speaker 2: inconsistent caregivers or we had you know, parents do their best,
Speaker 2: but parents are also imperfect. Parents have their own parents,
Speaker 2: and they have their own histories which makes them parent
Speaker 2: in a certain way. So there are certain ways in
Speaker 2: which we didn't get parented the way we wanted to
Speaker 2: get parented, and we come into relationships maybe we don't
Speaker 2: trust and then we think, oh, I can't trust that person,
Speaker 2: But it's really not about the other person. They're completely trustworthy,
Speaker 2: but you just don't trust the world, you don't trust
Speaker 2: the universe, you don't even maybe trust yourself. So those
Speaker 2: people maybe feel like, well, this is really hard because
Speaker 2: I don't really trust this person, but they're not looking
Speaker 2: at Maybe it's hard because you are bringing something into
Speaker 2: this right, so the magic might come, might be there,
Speaker 2: but you have to be able to learn how to trust,
Speaker 2: and maybe at the beginning of that relationship it's going
Speaker 2: to be a little bit hard for you. So it's
Speaker 2: not going to look like the Disney the romantic comedies
Speaker 2: that we all see. But I think the other thing
Speaker 2: is there's a study that I love that I think
Speaker 2: more people should know about, which is that they did
Speaker 2: this longitudinal study, so that means they followed people over
Speaker 2: twenty years and they checked in every five years, and
Speaker 2: they started with the first date. When you met this person,
Speaker 2: you write down your impressions. And some people said, you know, oh,
Speaker 2: this person there's so much magic, there's so much chemistry.
Speaker 2: And some people said it was fine, yeah, I'd probably
Speaker 2: see this person again, but nothing great, right, And then
Speaker 2: they followed them every five years, and what they found
Speaker 2: after twenty years was that the people who were happily
Speaker 2: married to each other did change their story. So at
Speaker 2: the time they had said like, yeah, I'm not really sure,
Speaker 2: nice person, no butterflies, no spark, they said, oh, I
Speaker 2: knew right away. They changed the story because now the
Speaker 2: story is filtered through the way their marriage is. Now
Speaker 2: people who were unhappy, who got divorced or were still
Speaker 2: married but were unhappy, you know, said things like, oh,
Speaker 2: there was no chemistry. There was never any chemistry, no
Speaker 2: right away, even though at the time they said magic, right,
Speaker 2: that's so good. So I think it's so important for
Speaker 2: people to realize that don't listen to what your friends
Speaker 2: say about how they met, because it's going to be
Speaker 2: filtered through how they feel about each other. Right now.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you raised that. That is such. That's
Speaker 1: such a great insight, and I wish if everyone's listening
Speaker 1: right now, please please please, like, let that deeply connect
Speaker 1: with your heart and head, because I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons we will make mistakes. We're either forcing
Speaker 1: ourselves to look for the perfection in the moment, and
Speaker 1: like you said, some of the best relationships start by
Speaker 1: it's fine, it's okay, I'm not sure. And also to
Speaker 1: not over amplify that first meeting. I think we put
Speaker 1: so much pressure on the first date, the first kiss,
Speaker 1: you know, the first time I'm being intimate with someone,
Speaker 1: the first the first of everything is like such.
Speaker 2: A so weighted, so weighted, right, yes, unfairly yes, yes.
Speaker 2: And what happens is people will go on a date,
Speaker 2: and so I see this in therapy all the time.
Speaker 2: People will come in and they'll say, I went on
Speaker 2: the date with this person, nice person. I don't know,
Speaker 2: I just didn't feel that intensity. I just didn't I
Speaker 2: don't know, I didn't feel this romantic connection with this person.
Speaker 2: And I'll say, how did you feel about yourself on
Speaker 2: this date? I felt good, I felt really comfortable, I
Speaker 2: felt like myself. Right. Did you have a good time?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Did you feel like this was a fun person to
Speaker 2: be around?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well why not go on a second date? Why not
Speaker 2: spend another hour with this person just to see what
Speaker 2: it feels like to sit with this person again. And
Speaker 2: what happens is sometimes not always, Sometimes you sit with
Speaker 2: this person enough and then all of a sudden you're like, Oh,
Speaker 2: they're really cute. I didn't see that before, or they're
Speaker 2: really funny. They were kind of nervous on the first
Speaker 2: date because it's a first date. It's like a job interview, right,
Speaker 2: So people are performing. It's a very performative action going
Speaker 2: on a first date. But when people feel more comfortable
Speaker 2: and they can be more themselves, you feel like you
Speaker 2: can be more yourself. They feel like they can and
Speaker 2: you see the real person and they can become very
Speaker 2: attractive to you. So this doesn't always happen, but it
Speaker 2: happens enough that I think that what happens is we
Speaker 2: feel like there's this abundance that because of dating apps,
Speaker 2: we feel like if I don't feel like this person
Speaker 2: is fabulous a ten everything that I've imagined on that
Speaker 2: first forty five minutes or an hour that I'm meeting
Speaker 2: them in this weird coffee place, in this weird environment.
Speaker 2: Because we're strangers, we're both nervous, we're both trying to
Speaker 2: impress each other. We both have these fantasies that we're
Speaker 2: bringing in the other person's letting down my fantasy. You know,
Speaker 2: what a weird way to meet someone. And then they think, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: there's ten other people on this app that I can
Speaker 2: swipe on and they'll meet my fantasy. Except they probably
Speaker 2: won't either, or they might. Here's the danger. They might
Speaker 2: on that first date, but then they're locking into some
Speaker 2: fantasy that you have. But then when you really get
Speaker 2: to know them, you find out, oh, I don't really
Speaker 2: connect with this person, or this person's kind of superficial,
Speaker 2: or this person's great at first dates. Because people who
Speaker 2: are great at first dates can be really charming. But
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that that's what you want in a partner.
Speaker 2: You want someone who's real. You want someone who's authentic,
Speaker 2: who's annuine, And maybe the person who's a great first
Speaker 2: dater is not a great partner.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean, Laurie, you just did this genius therapy
Speaker 1: question thing there that I want people to notice. I
Speaker 1: think you're so right that after a first day, the
Speaker 1: number one thing we focus on is how did I
Speaker 1: feel about them? And our friends will ask us what
Speaker 1: did you think of them? And you just shifted that
Speaker 1: question that you asked one of your patients, the question
Speaker 1: being how did you feel about yourself? Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think that's so powerful because you're so right that if
Speaker 1: you're only looking at the other person and making your
Speaker 1: assumptions and judgments on whether they're interesting, whether they're exciting,
Speaker 1: whether there's someone who can entertain you, rather than going
Speaker 1: how did I feel about myself? And it was so interesting.
Speaker 1: I was just saying to one of my friends. I
Speaker 1: was saying that when do you feel peaceful around someone?
Speaker 1: And I was saying, peaceful around someone usually isn't exciting,
Speaker 1: it's usually not exhilarating, but you feel listen to cart
Speaker 1: when you're around them, they kind of relax your no
Speaker 1: system a little bit. And so when you ask the
Speaker 1: question how did I feel about myself? And you're like,
Speaker 1: I felt natural, I felt comfortable. I actually felt really
Speaker 1: good all of a sudden, like oh, I didn't feel butterflies,
Speaker 1: and I wasn't constantly nervous and I wasn't trying to
Speaker 1: impress them. So this is actually a much healthier space
Speaker 1: to live in. So I love that reframe of after
Speaker 1: a first date, not asking yourself what did I think
Speaker 1: of them? Are they interesting? Are they the one? How
Speaker 1: did I feel about myself? I think that's a brilliant,
Speaker 1: brilliant note.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how we feel about ourselves often comes from
Speaker 2: the person on that date is really listening to you
Speaker 2: and is really interested. So the person who can entertain
Speaker 2: you on a first date might be really fun. But
Speaker 2: I don't think that you want an entertainer. I think
Speaker 2: what you want is you want someone you can actually
Speaker 2: have some kind of connection with, and someone who knows
Speaker 2: how to listen, and someone who's genuinely curious about you
Speaker 2: and not just trying to impress you is going to
Speaker 2: make a much better long term partner.
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Jay Shatty and I'm throwed to announce
Speaker 1: my podcast tour. For the first time ever. You can
Speaker 1: see my On Purpose podcast live and in person. Join
Speaker 1: me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations
Speaker 1: with surprise guests. It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert,
Speaker 1: or a CEO or business leader. We'll dive into experiences
Speaker 1: designed to inspire growth, spark learning, and build real connections.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you there. Tickets are on
Speaker 1: cell now. Head to Jayshetty dot me and get yours today.
Speaker 1: I think, Laurie, we're uncovering something really interesting here. It's like,
Speaker 1: I feel like we don't know what human connection is, right,
Speaker 1: I feel like we don't know what human love is like,
Speaker 1: like what we're getting to here, it's like because it
Speaker 1: is so hard to define, I guess, but there's a
Speaker 1: sense of we don't know what healthy connection communication looks
Speaker 1: like because chances are we haven't seen it at home,
Speaker 1: we haven't seen it around us, we haven't seen it
Speaker 1: in the media. So there's a sense of not being
Speaker 1: able to mirror or not being able to reflect something
Speaker 1: that embodies that deep, profound experience of love. So when
Speaker 1: you're saying you're not looking at someone who's giving you
Speaker 1: the ability to feel listen heard seeing what is from
Speaker 1: all of your experience and everything you've read. You've done
Speaker 1: this for decades now, Like, what have you seen? Are
Speaker 1: the core values of human connection that we should be
Speaker 1: aspiring for in a healthy relationship? Can we even define those?
Speaker 2: We forget that love is not some kind of airy feeling, right,
Speaker 2: love is you know, people say that people in love
Speaker 2: are actually like people on drugs. It's the same dopamine
Speaker 2: reaction and so you're not really thinking straight. So that
Speaker 2: might feel like infatuation. That feels really good, and yes,
Speaker 2: that's a component of feeling really connected and feeling love.
Speaker 2: But love in the day to day is a verb.
Speaker 2: How can I be loved to another person? How is
Speaker 2: someone being loving as a verb to me? And so
Speaker 2: I remember this struck me so much when I had
Speaker 2: a couple and the woman and the couple said to
Speaker 2: her husband, you know what three words I really want
Speaker 2: to hear and he immediately said, I love you. You
Speaker 2: want to hear I love you more? And she said, no,
Speaker 2: I know you love me. I want to hear I
Speaker 2: understand you. And that to her was love right. I
Speaker 2: know that you say you love me. I want you
Speaker 2: to show me you love me because I want to
Speaker 2: feel understood by you and I want to understand you.
Speaker 2: And I think so much what we don't do in
Speaker 2: a loving relationship is we don't take the time to
Speaker 2: either understand ourselves and communicate that or understand the other person.
Speaker 2: It really takes an act of love.
Speaker 1: It's such a great point. And even hearing you say
Speaker 1: that I like it resonates so strongly with how I
Speaker 1: see love and how much I see the conflicts that
Speaker 1: exist and relationships being because people love each other but
Speaker 1: they don't understand each other.
Speaker 2: They don't and they're not curious, right, so they feel like,
Speaker 2: if you don't understand me, then you know you don't
Speaker 2: love me. If you they do this, if you loved me,
Speaker 2: you would X as opposed to let me tell you
Speaker 2: how I'm feeling right now, let me explain this to you,
Speaker 2: because the truth is, if they understood you, they would
Speaker 2: do X, probably, but it's not if they love you.
Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with if they love you,
Speaker 2: they would do X.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's so powerful, that's so true. It's resonating so
Speaker 1: strongly with me too. And that idea of we think
Speaker 1: that if I say I love you, that means I
Speaker 1: understand you. Yes, But the person on the other side
Speaker 1: is saying, no, I get that you love me, but
Speaker 1: you're not understanding me. You're not hearing me, you're not
Speaker 1: seeing me. And I often think that we think love
Speaker 1: makes up for a lack of understanding, but love can't.
Speaker 1: Love can't can't complete a lack of understanding. Love can't
Speaker 1: complete the fact that you haven't really listened to what
Speaker 1: the other person is saying, because love can often be
Speaker 1: this overarching emotion as opposed to what you're saying, this
Speaker 1: active verb that's being expressed. And so I think that's
Speaker 1: a great takeaway for people. Is is someone actually trying
Speaker 1: to understand you? And I think we have this intuitive
Speaker 1: feeling that if someone completes our sentences on the first date,
Speaker 1: or they like the same things we like, then they
Speaker 1: must understand us. Right If we're talking about our favorite
Speaker 1: foods and we both agree that Italian cuisine is our
Speaker 1: favorite food, or we both agree that we love comedy
Speaker 1: movies and we love we almost we feel understood. And
Speaker 1: I feel like both people in that moment of feeling
Speaker 1: understood stop trying to understand and be understood. Does that
Speaker 1: make sense?
Speaker 2: What you're talking about is having things in common which
Speaker 2: is very different from what you're coming into the relationship with.
Speaker 2: So you can have a lot of interest in common.
Speaker 2: You might both like sushi and rollerblading and these kinds
Speaker 2: of movies and these kinds of TV shows and this
Speaker 2: kind of cuisine. Right, and you say we have so
Speaker 2: much in common. We love the same music, we you know,
Speaker 2: we read the same things. That's what you have in common.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that you understand the person's operating instructions.
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is when you get
Speaker 2: anything a new car, you know it comes with a
Speaker 2: manual and it says like, this is how this car operates,
Speaker 2: and it's different from your last car. So just because
Speaker 2: it's a car doesn't mean it operates in the same way.
Speaker 2: Like this button is going to be over here, and
Speaker 2: if you want to control this, it's going to be
Speaker 2: over here, and it doesn't like when you do this,
Speaker 2: and it likes when you do this, right, That's what
Speaker 2: the manual says. We need that for our people. We
Speaker 2: need to know what is there, what are their operating instructions,
Speaker 2: And we assume that because we have all this in common,
Speaker 2: that that person is going to know my operating instructions
Speaker 2: and I'm going to know that person's operating instructions. But
Speaker 2: we have to share our operating instructions with the other person.
Speaker 2: Just because you like to be when you want to
Speaker 2: come to me with something and you just want to vent, right,
Speaker 2: I actually want feedback. That doesn't mean that we have
Speaker 2: the same way of wanting to be listened to. When
Speaker 2: you are feeling sad, you do this when i'm feeling sad,
Speaker 2: I need this. Those are different things. When I'm angry,
Speaker 2: I need to talk about it right away. When you're angry,
Speaker 2: you need to walk around the block. Oh that's really
Speaker 2: good information. I didn't read your manual. Tell me more.
Speaker 2: So we have to be really curious about tell me
Speaker 2: you're operating instructions. And we learn that just by experiencing
Speaker 2: the other person and seeing that while we have a
Speaker 2: lot in common and we connect, they're actually separate and
Speaker 2: apart from us, they're a different person. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 2: so important. So how can we be loving? What is love?
Speaker 2: Love is saying I'm taking the time to understand your
Speaker 2: operating instructions.
Speaker 1: That's so well, But and I think we struggle with
Speaker 1: that so much because we don't have enough self awareness
Speaker 1: of our our own operating instructions. And then we have
Speaker 1: this warped view that love means you should be able
Speaker 1: to understand and read that bit in between the lines,
Speaker 1: and none of us read the operating instructions for our
Speaker 1: devices today. So yeah, we're also not reading between the lines.
Speaker 1: And the other person sitting there going, well, if you
Speaker 1: love me, you'd know all of this. How can you
Speaker 1: not know after ten years that I love celebrating my birthday.
Speaker 1: R anniversaries are really important to me, and it's fascinating
Speaker 1: to me that we don't want to help people help us.
Speaker 2: Right, So what we do using the birthday example is
Speaker 2: somebody will say, you know, to their partner, what would
Speaker 2: you like to do for your birthday? And they say, oh,
Speaker 2: it's no big deal, but they really actually want something,
Speaker 2: and they think my partner should know that when I
Speaker 2: say it's no big deal, don't worry about it. And
Speaker 2: then the partner says, oh, we're just going to do
Speaker 2: a quiet dinner when they wanted a big party. That
Speaker 2: their partner doesn't get them at all. How did their
Speaker 2: partner know that no big deal actually meant I love
Speaker 2: big parties? How do you not notice after being together
Speaker 2: for three years that I love being at big parties?
Speaker 2: So you should have known that my no big deal
Speaker 2: meant I love big parties. Yeah, but why can't we
Speaker 2: just communicate our desires? Why does that take away from
Speaker 2: the magic? We think if I have to explain it,
Speaker 2: there's no chemistry between us. You should just know. But
Speaker 2: we should be able to say, hey, I would love
Speaker 2: a big party. I love celebrating in the company of
Speaker 2: all of my people and all of my friends. What
Speaker 2: a relief for your partner to know I can please
Speaker 2: my partner and give my partner exactly what my partner wants,
Speaker 2: because now I know, Yeah, that doesn't take away from
Speaker 2: the chemistry or the magic or the connection between you.
Speaker 2: That enhances the connection.
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree. A few years ago, me and
Speaker 1: my wife, after never knowing what to do for each
Speaker 1: other's birthdays and always getting it wrong, we set that
Speaker 1: packed with each other where we're like, we're just going
Speaker 1: to tell each other three to four months in advance
Speaker 1: what we'd like to do for our birthdays. Her birthdays
Speaker 1: in July. It just starts you in two day years ago,
Speaker 1: and then my birthday is in September, and we're just like,
Speaker 1: we're just going to tell each other what we want,
Speaker 1: what kind of party we want, what we want. So
Speaker 1: this year she was thinking about doing something. She was
Speaker 1: like one day and then she's like, no, actually, I
Speaker 1: just want to do nothing, and she's generally I over
Speaker 1: the years, I always did extravagant things because I like
Speaker 1: extravagant things, and realized I was giving her the birthday party.
Speaker 1: I wanted yes, and she was giving me the birth
Speaker 1: device she wanted, and so that's where we just started
Speaker 1: telling each other. And so she said to me, she
Speaker 1: was like, I just want to do something really small.
Speaker 1: That's what we did. It was beautiful. And then she
Speaker 1: was telling me what do you want? I was like,
Speaker 1: I just want to someone to do something with just
Speaker 1: me and you. I was like, whatever it is, as
Speaker 1: long as it's just me and you, I'm open to it.
Speaker 1: And I think it's become so much more fun being
Speaker 1: able to not have to live in this anxiety and
Speaker 1: anticipation of do they understand me? Have I dropped enough hints?
Speaker 1: Do they get the magic? And then feeling disappointed or
Speaker 1: even feeling like they got it all? But oh, it's
Speaker 1: because I gave them all the notes anyway. And so
Speaker 1: you're so right that we've removed the magic because we've
Speaker 1: shared what we want, right.
Speaker 2: And it's so funny what you said, this whole thing
Speaker 2: about if I give them the notes, that somehow it's
Speaker 2: not special anymore, as opposed to this person took the
Speaker 2: time to understand exactly what I want and to make
Speaker 2: my day the magical day that I want it to be.
Speaker 2: That's the magic. This person cares enough to give you
Speaker 2: exactly what you want, but we don't give them credit
Speaker 2: for that. We actually give them demerits.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and we give ourselves credit for yeah yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, And you're so right, Like I think it
Speaker 1: comes with so many things that we think asking for
Speaker 1: help or telling people what we actually need or having
Speaker 1: a request is a weakness. We see it as a
Speaker 1: sign of a weak relationship, when actually it's a sign
Speaker 1: of strong self awareness and a strong relationship that you
Speaker 1: have the ability to share your desires, your needs, your
Speaker 1: interests and the other person has the ability to comprehend
Speaker 1: and take action on them. That is actually a healthy,
Speaker 1: long term relationship. And yeah, I hope that this conversation
Speaker 1: can encourage people if you're in a relationship, even if
Speaker 1: you're starting out in one, These are great habits to
Speaker 1: set early on rather than wasting three to five years
Speaker 1: making mistakes, trying to figure it out, carrying that baggage
Speaker 1: and then figuring it out right.
Speaker 2: And the setting the early on is the really important part,
Speaker 2: because relationships are like cement if you you know, be
Speaker 2: in the beginning. Everyone's trying to be the ambassador of themselves,
Speaker 2: so they think, oh, I don't want to ask for
Speaker 2: too much, or I didn't really like that the person's
Speaker 2: always late, but I'll deal with that later. But it
Speaker 2: really frustrates you. And so then, you know, six months
Speaker 2: a year into the relationship, you just blow up and
Speaker 2: you say, how come you're always late? I don't like
Speaker 2: it you're always late, and the person's like, this never
Speaker 2: bothered you before. I don't understand. Okay, thank you for
Speaker 2: telling me, but you're so upset about it at that point,
Speaker 2: or the person doesn't call when they say they will,
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. It's really important because now the
Speaker 2: cement is dried, and now you have to, you know,
Speaker 2: get a jackhammer out there and bring up the sm
Speaker 2: if you do it when the cement is wet, and
Speaker 2: you say, you know, after the first couple times, you
Speaker 2: know what, when you're late, I feel like you don't
Speaker 2: prioritize us getting together at this time, or you don't
Speaker 2: prioritize me. I would really appreciate it if you could
Speaker 2: come on time. And now you get to see, as
Speaker 2: the cement is drying, can this person respond to that right?
Speaker 2: And that's really important to know because why do you
Speaker 2: want to spend a long time with this person if
Speaker 2: they're never going to be able to respond to it,
Speaker 2: or why do you want to be frustrated for all
Speaker 2: this time when you could have just told them early on.
Speaker 2: And now this person is used to being late, they
Speaker 2: don't know it's a problem. It's going to take a
Speaker 2: while for them to reverse their pattern. Whereas if they
Speaker 2: know in the beginning this is really important, they're going
Speaker 2: to reverse their pattern or they're not, and that's good
Speaker 2: information for you.
Speaker 1: And totally, I feel like a lot of the reason
Speaker 1: why we don't say something in the beginning or in
Speaker 1: the early stages is either we want to give the
Speaker 1: other person grace, we don't want to be disliked for
Speaker 1: giving feedback, and we want to be liked. It can
Speaker 1: be well intentioned of maybe the change, maybe they'll notice,
Speaker 1: But actually, as you said, all we're doing is the
Speaker 1: problems getting bigger and bigger and bigger for us. It's
Speaker 1: becoming less and less big for that individual. And so
Speaker 1: now the distance between you and that person when you
Speaker 1: share that problem is so far and wide because they've
Speaker 1: started to devalue being on time, because you don't seem
Speaker 1: to care, and you've started overvalue being on time, and
Speaker 1: so now you're at two opposite ends of the spectrum,
Speaker 1: and now you can't hear each other because you're so
Speaker 1: far away from each other. And I find that so
Speaker 1: interesting that when you try to avoid problems and the
Speaker 1: other person becomes more and more unaware, you just become
Speaker 1: further apart, so that then when you raise the problem,
Speaker 1: they can't hear you because you're so far away from
Speaker 1: each other.
Speaker 2: Right, because then it becomes blame. So if at the
Speaker 2: beginning you say, you know, when you come late, I
Speaker 2: feel like you're not prioritizing me, that person might because
Speaker 2: you said it calmly, that person might say, oh, well,
Speaker 2: the reason is I really was prioritizing you. I know
Speaker 2: you like to eat early, so I was trying to
Speaker 2: leave work early for you. But I see that that's
Speaker 2: not working. So what can we do? Because you like
Speaker 2: to eat early, it's hard for me to leave work
Speaker 2: at that time. So I agree to it. But then
Speaker 2: I'm never on time, and then you've got a problem
Speaker 2: you can work through together. Oh maybe we can just
Speaker 2: meet half an hour later from now on, and now
Speaker 2: you're both happy. Yeah, right, But if you do it later,
Speaker 2: it's kind of like, well, you never leave work for me, Well,
Speaker 2: I didn't know I was leaving early for you know,
Speaker 2: it just becomes a fight.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I wish what I'm hearing is and I think
Speaker 1: about this all the time when I'm working with coaching clients,
Speaker 1: we're talking to friends, or our community is just I
Speaker 1: wish and hope for everyone listening that we could be
Speaker 1: more curious about the context of people's decisions and choices
Speaker 1: rather than just the choice or decision in isolation. So
Speaker 1: we see someone being late as they're just late, rather
Speaker 1: than the context, which you just so beautifully described, which
Speaker 1: could be anything from I can't leave work early through
Speaker 1: to whatever else it may be. And it's almost like
Speaker 1: we see those as excuses rather than as context. Yes,
Speaker 1: if we start recognizing that every person you're looking at
Speaker 1: has a whole history of relationships and experiences and background,
Speaker 1: and your job in order to be with someone is
Speaker 1: to research that and to discover that and understand how
Speaker 1: those points connect and that's connect and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you're looking at a real human being who
Speaker 1: has complexities and has layers as opposed to this idea
Speaker 1: of they chose to be late because they disrespected me
Speaker 1: when it's not really about you potentially, right.
Speaker 2: You see it as they're lazy, they're disrespectful, and we
Speaker 2: don't realize, we don't think we are. Context becomes the
Speaker 2: whole story, you know. I always say we're unreliable narrators
Speaker 2: because we're telling the story through our particular lens, but
Speaker 2: we're not saying. I will say to people in therapy,
Speaker 2: if the other person were here and they were telling
Speaker 2: their version of this story, what would it be? And
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the story becomes so much more expansive.
Speaker 2: There's the context, and that makes the person not a villain.
Speaker 2: But oh, I feel I understand that, I can see,
Speaker 2: I have compassion in fact, for why they made that decision,
Speaker 2: or at least I understand why they made that decision.
Speaker 1: A lot of what Laurie you're saying and I agree with,
Speaker 1: and I also am sharing is this sense of taking accountability,
Speaker 1: taking responsibility. But a lot of the time, a lot
Speaker 1: of therapy speak on social media especially has made it
Speaker 1: feel like we're always the victim and everyone else is
Speaker 1: the problem. And so when we use words like gaslighting
Speaker 1: and you know, boundary setting and whatever else, it may
Speaker 1: be a lot of that language starts to make it
Speaker 1: feel like, well, I'm perfect and the other person was
Speaker 1: the issue. But you're actually you know, and I'm totally
Speaker 1: with you on that. We're flipping that and going, well, no,
Speaker 1: let's really look at how we can look at things
Speaker 1: differently and how we can change how we behave walk
Speaker 1: me through that balance and how you encourage people to
Speaker 1: makes sense both because it's saying is as old as
Speaker 1: it goes, like you know, it takes two to tango,
Speaker 1: it takes too, like you know, it's always going to
Speaker 1: take too and so but we try and make it
Speaker 1: that it has to be one of the others. So
Speaker 1: how do we balance that, reconcile that in a healthy way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it's great that people are
Speaker 2: talking more about mental health on social media. What drives
Speaker 2: me absolutely bananas is how people use words like we
Speaker 2: were saying, boundaries, gaslighting, narcissism. If you looked at social media,
Speaker 2: you'd think, like, eighty percent of the population or narcissists. Yes,
Speaker 2: eighty percent of the population is being gas lit. Eighty
Speaker 2: percent of the population has no one who will respect
Speaker 2: their boundaries, and so these terms are being misused and
Speaker 2: what happens is you lose the fact of what you're
Speaker 2: talking about, which is that we're all doing a dance
Speaker 2: in a relationship. There's a dance going on, and if
Speaker 2: you change your dance steps, the other person either has
Speaker 2: to change their dance steps too because they can't dance
Speaker 2: with the otherwise, or they'll just get off the dance floor.
Speaker 2: That's really good to know. So we don't think of
Speaker 2: about what dance steps can I change? We think, oh,
Speaker 2: they did this, that's it, and they're mislabeling people. Someone
Speaker 2: is not a narcissist if they didn't see what your
Speaker 2: need was, or they talk a lot about themselves, there's
Speaker 2: a reason that that's happening. You need to be curious
Speaker 2: about that. Narcissistic personality disorder is very rare, so not
Speaker 2: everybody is a narcissist. Gaslighting. Gaslighting is not I have
Speaker 2: a different opinion from you. Gaslighting is making someone feel
Speaker 2: like they're crazy for feeling how they're feeling. Those are
Speaker 2: very different things, so someone can feel differently about the
Speaker 2: same experience. This happens with couples all the time. They're
Speaker 2: not gaslighting each other. They have different feelings about the
Speaker 2: same experience. This is not gaslighting, but people on social
Speaker 2: media will say, well, I said that I felt this
Speaker 2: about this experience. I'm being gas lit because my partner
Speaker 2: doesn't agree with my feelings. You don't have to agree,
Speaker 2: you don't have to have the same feelings. You can
Speaker 2: just notice that the person has those feelings and that
Speaker 2: you might have different feelings. That's okay. So what I
Speaker 2: I think is important about this is that you know
Speaker 2: the boundaries is a really great example of this. People say, well,
Speaker 2: this person doesn't you know we have to set these
Speaker 2: very rigid boundaries. Well, a boundary is something you set
Speaker 2: with yourself. So a boundary is a request that you
Speaker 2: make to somebody else. And this is why we see
Speaker 2: so many people say on social media, I'm going to
Speaker 2: cut this person off, and everyone says, great, cut them off.
Speaker 2: They're terrible because they didn't respect your boundary. They can't
Speaker 2: respect your boundaries. Did you give them an opportunity to
Speaker 2: respect your boundaries? And did you respect your own boundary?
Speaker 2: So an example might be let's say that your mother
Speaker 2: is always asking about when you're going to be in
Speaker 2: a relationship, right and are you dating anyone? What's happening
Speaker 2: and that just ruins your time together. You can say,
Speaker 2: you know what, Mom, I will let you know if
Speaker 2: there's someone important in my life. But in the meantime,
Speaker 2: it really makes it hard to be around you when
Speaker 2: you're asking about something that you know is very stressful
Speaker 2: for me. So if you ask about that, I'm going
Speaker 2: to end the visitor. I'm going to end the phone
Speaker 2: call very calm. Okay. So then next time you get
Speaker 2: together with your mom, she's really good for the first
Speaker 2: half hour, and then she's like, oh, and is there
Speaker 2: anyone that you're dating? Mom? Remember, I don't have a
Speaker 2: good time with you. When that comes up, I'm gonna leave.
Speaker 2: But I really look forward to getting together with you
Speaker 2: another time when we can talk about something else. Oh no,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. No, Mom, I'm gonna leave.
Speaker 2: But next time, right next time, your mom maybe she
Speaker 2: remembers and it's like an hour later and she's like, oh,
Speaker 2: but are you Oh sorry, sorry, sorry? Oh mom? Great,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go now, right, And so you realize, like,
Speaker 2: is this person able to respect your boundary? But the
Speaker 2: main thing is you respected yours. You said I'm going
Speaker 2: to leave if you ask that question, and then over time,
Speaker 2: and you have to be consistent. If sometimes you say, oh,
Speaker 2: it's okay, Mom, I understand no, because she's just gonna
Speaker 2: keep doing it. So if you're consistent with yourself, you
Speaker 2: have to keep your own boundary. This isn't her fault.
Speaker 2: This is about you. And if you are not going
Speaker 2: to value your boundary enough to keep it every time,
Speaker 2: that's on you. And so if you keep doing that
Speaker 2: and your mom eventually probably will stop because she knows
Speaker 2: that she wants to have a conversation with you or
Speaker 2: have an outing with you, she'll probably stop asking you
Speaker 2: about it. But if she doesn't, you've learned that she
Speaker 2: cannot do that. So I'm going to keep with my
Speaker 2: boundary and maybe I'm going to get together with her
Speaker 2: less or I'm still going to leave every time she
Speaker 2: brings that up, right, So it's about what you're going
Speaker 2: to do. So it's not that you know nobody can
Speaker 2: keep your boundaries. It's about I've said something that I
Speaker 2: think is reasonable, and I'm going to see what the
Speaker 2: other person is capable of. And so when people say
Speaker 2: I'm going to be I'm going to cut this person off, well,
Speaker 2: are you really like you know or can you set
Speaker 2: a boundary that works for you so that you can
Speaker 2: have the good parts of the relationship and not the
Speaker 2: parts that are problematic.
Speaker 1: The way we have to think about it is that
Speaker 1: people are probably going to keep breaking your boundaries. Are
Speaker 1: you going to keep them in that situation? Right? That's
Speaker 1: what's happening there. It's like a boundary set for you
Speaker 1: to protect you from yourself, yes, from giving in to
Speaker 1: a scenario in a situation would you call contra But
Speaker 1: we think a boundary is almost an order or a
Speaker 1: law that other people have to follow. And the truth
Speaker 1: is you can't control them like they're going to act
Speaker 1: how they're going to act, and you've got to set
Speaker 1: a boundary where you know how to behave and you
Speaker 1: know how to act one of them. I'm so glad
Speaker 1: that you talked about your feelings around how therapy speakers
Speaker 1: is healthy. It's important for people to have these conversations
Speaker 1: about how certain words are being misused and bent online
Speaker 1: because I do think that it creates exactly what you said,
Speaker 1: a culture where we think that everyone we meet is
Speaker 1: a narcissist because everyone has one percent of a narcissist
Speaker 1: in them, or everyone we meet is a gas light,
Speaker 1: and it starts to create a really unhealthy belief system
Speaker 1: around who we're around. I watched this movie recently. I
Speaker 1: didn't get great ratings on Rotten Tomorrows, but I saw
Speaker 1: on a plane and I watched it out of intrigue.
Speaker 1: It's called cat Person and it's based on this element
Speaker 1: of catfishing. It's a kind of like a satire parody
Speaker 1: thriller of the challenges of modern dating about how so
Speaker 1: much of those challenges are in our head, but how
Speaker 1: they can transform into reality. And if anyone hasn't watched it,
Speaker 1: it's a fun one time watch on a plane or
Speaker 1: you know, one night with a friend or whatever it
Speaker 1: may be. But what I appreciated about it is it
Speaker 1: talked about this idea of how we kind of start
Speaker 1: viewing people as more crazy or psychotic than they might
Speaker 1: be because of these little clues that we've been trained
Speaker 1: to look out for.
Speaker 2: If that makes sense, Yes, and we do. We look
Speaker 2: at other people as they're doing things that are very
Speaker 2: human and we label that crazy. When we do it,
Speaker 2: we say, oh, but there's a reason, and here's why
Speaker 2: I'm not crazy. I had context, Like you said, Yeah,
Speaker 2: we don't give them the context. Now, I'm not talking
Speaker 2: about abusive behavior, of course, but I'm talking about the
Speaker 2: things that we will literally say oh, that's unacceptable without saying,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, why is this happening right now? All
Speaker 2: of our behavior, by the way, is motivated by we
Speaker 2: want to be loved. We really do, and sometimes we
Speaker 2: do it in a way that makes people not want
Speaker 2: to love us, and we don't realize that we're pushing
Speaker 2: people away with our behavior. But at the core, we
Speaker 2: are doing it because we want to be liked. We
Speaker 2: want to be loved. So is this person doing this
Speaker 2: very strange thing because they're a horrible person or because
Speaker 2: they're human like me, and at their core they're very vulnerable,
Speaker 2: and they don't Their behavior doesn't reflect the wish the
Speaker 2: wishes I want you to like me, or I want
Speaker 2: to protect myself from being hurt. The behavior is not okay.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like when you say to little kids,
Speaker 2: it's okay to be angry, it's not okay to hit someone, right,
Speaker 2: So what is that equivalent as an adult? It's okay
Speaker 2: to feel the feeling, but what do we do with it?
Speaker 2: And can we understand why that person is acting that way?
Speaker 2: Can we understand the context?
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. One of the ways that that kind of
Speaker 1: transpires into a bigger moment that a community had a
Speaker 1: lot of questions around was what's the right amount of
Speaker 1: pressure for someone to get married or proposed to you?
Speaker 1: Because I think people get to this point where they
Speaker 1: feel like we've invested someone's time, we're together, we're here,
Speaker 1: but this person is just not proposing, they're not getting
Speaker 1: they don't you know, they don't want to get married,
Speaker 1: whatever it may be. And there it gets to this
Speaker 1: point of this ultimatum of like, and now there's even
Speaker 1: a TV show called The Ultimatum, which is all about
Speaker 1: people dealing with that period in their life. So what
Speaker 1: does someone do in that scenario where they feel there's
Speaker 1: good commitment, we're getting somewhere, but the other person isn't
Speaker 1: showing this excitement, enthusiasm, or even taking action on taking
Speaker 1: this relationship to the next level.
Speaker 2: This is like that birthday party thing where you feel like,
Speaker 2: you know, the other person should just know, but we're
Speaker 2: not communicating about it. The fact that people don't talk
Speaker 2: about whether they want to get married before a proposal
Speaker 2: happens is insane to me. It just said it makes
Speaker 2: it makes no sense that it shouldn't be a total surprise.
Speaker 2: You should know that you are both on the same page,
Speaker 2: and you should know that the other person is definitely
Speaker 2: going to say yes that you've talked about this. So
Speaker 2: many people come to me for pre marital therapy where
Speaker 2: they can talk about because they know they want to
Speaker 2: get married and maybe they want to they're not even
Speaker 2: having any problems. They just want to talk about their
Speaker 2: families and how they're going to blend their families and
Speaker 2: the in laws and the siblings and you know this
Speaker 2: person and this personality. Or they want to talk about money,
Speaker 2: or they want to talk about whether they want to
Speaker 2: have kids and how many and how that might work,
Speaker 2: and they want to talk about balancing their careers. They
Speaker 2: want to talk about sex and all the different things
Speaker 2: that might be hard to talk about before you get
Speaker 2: married that are so important and they might not have
Speaker 2: the answers right now, but they're learning how to talk
Speaker 2: about these challenging topics. And people say, oh, you're in
Speaker 2: therapy and you're not even married yet, something must be
Speaker 2: terribly wrong. It's like, no, something's terribly right. And so
Speaker 2: the fact that people are saying, like I really want
Speaker 2: this person to propose, but I don't understand why they're
Speaker 2: not and they don't feel like they can ask the
Speaker 2: person means you are not ready to marry that person
Speaker 2: if you don't feel like you can bring this up
Speaker 2: and say where are we We've been together for this
Speaker 2: amount of time. I'm feeling this. I'm wondering where you
Speaker 2: are with this and the person You'll get so much
Speaker 2: information from. I do want to marry you. I don't
Speaker 2: feel ready yet because of this, but I think I
Speaker 2: will feel ready in six months. Right, and then you
Speaker 2: have a choice. Do you want to wait for that
Speaker 2: or do you not want to wait for that?
Speaker 1: Or right?
Speaker 2: Or they might say, actually, I don't know how I
Speaker 2: feel about getting married. I don't know if I'm going
Speaker 2: to come around to that. You have a choice about
Speaker 2: what you want to do with that. I you know, Oh,
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that. I thought I did want to
Speaker 2: get married, but now I'm not so sure. Well, that's
Speaker 2: really important to know why what's happening between us, so
Speaker 2: that conversation is so important. Or do you just want
Speaker 2: to sit there scheming with your friends about how you
Speaker 2: can drop hints or how you can like analyze the
Speaker 2: behavior because the person did this, and what does that mean?
Speaker 2: That doesn't sound like the kind of marriage you want
Speaker 2: to be in. Don't you want to be in the
Speaker 2: kind of marriage where you can say to the person, Hey,
Speaker 2: this is what i'm desiring, this is what i'm wanting.
Speaker 2: Where are you with this? If? That's such a basic conversation.
Speaker 1: But that's so much healthier than an ultimatum, too, because
Speaker 1: I think we also get Again, it goes back to
Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier. You haven't given that
Speaker 1: regular check in, you haven't touched base. You don't really
Speaker 1: know what that person's belief system is around marriage or
Speaker 1: whatever else it may be. And all of a sudden
Speaker 1: it's built up for you as this big thing and
Speaker 1: now you're like, okay, well either you marry me or
Speaker 1: we're over. And then that's not comfortable for that person either,
Speaker 1: because now they feel they're forced into a choice, as
Speaker 1: opposed to a sense of how do you feel about
Speaker 1: this and what are your thoughts about this? Again, it
Speaker 1: comes back to we're so scared of appearing to be naggy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're so scared of appearing to be high maintenance. We're
Speaker 1: so scared of appearing to be the one who's needy
Speaker 1: or desperate or whatever. Maybe, but we are feeling all
Speaker 1: of those things because we're not checking. How do we
Speaker 1: get over this hurdle? And by the way you experienced
Speaker 1: it in both like a lot of people don't break
Speaker 1: up with people for years because they don't want to
Speaker 1: be seen as the bad person. The amount of people
Speaker 1: I've spoken to who are like, oh, if I break
Speaker 1: up with her, if I break up with them, if
Speaker 1: I break up with him, oh my god, he's just
Speaker 1: going to hate me and I'm going to be the worst.
Speaker 1: And I just don't want to do that to them,
Speaker 1: and they're a nice person. But really always saying is
Speaker 1: I just don't want to I want to be liked. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in both scenarios, whether it's I don't want to nag
Speaker 1: them to marry me and propose, I don't want to
Speaker 1: break up with them because I don't want them to
Speaker 1: see me negatively. How do we get over that hurdle
Speaker 1: of recognizing that we're putting off the best decision for
Speaker 1: us or conversation because we want to be liked in
Speaker 1: a space that does that make sense? You're not trying
Speaker 1: to say right.
Speaker 2: Right, well, it's like a parent, like if you've set
Speaker 2: a boundary with your child, they might not like you
Speaker 2: in that moment, but you're doing something loving. And so
Speaker 2: if you break up with someone that you know you
Speaker 2: don't want to be with, you're doing something loving. So
Speaker 2: I think that we need to reframe what we're actually doing.
Speaker 2: What you're doing by staying in a relationship and stringing
Speaker 2: someone along is actually cruel and it's wasting their time.
Speaker 2: So you're not being nice, you're not going to be liked.
Speaker 2: But I think the other thing we were talking about
Speaker 2: about bringing things up, it's not just about a proposal,
Speaker 2: it's even about lots of people will say, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: I know, I think by the person that I'm dating
Speaker 2: is also dating other people. I would like to not
Speaker 2: date other people, but I'm afraid that all appear too
Speaker 2: needy too early, right as opposed to just being honest
Speaker 2: about what you want. They can say yes or no,
Speaker 2: but to be clear about look, we're dating. I don't
Speaker 2: feel comfortable with I can't really feel like I can
Speaker 2: get close to you if I know that you're dating
Speaker 2: other people at this point, because we're spending a lot
Speaker 2: of time together. So how do you feel about this?
Speaker 2: Are you ready to be in an exclusive relationship? Is
Speaker 2: that of interest to you? If they say no, wow, great,
Speaker 2: you've learned a lot. You can make a choice like
Speaker 2: I'm comfortable doing this for another month or I'm not,
Speaker 2: or you know, whatever it is. Or they can say, oh,
Speaker 2: I didn't know that that was important to you and
Speaker 2: I would like that too, let's do that, or I'm
Speaker 2: not ready to do that. So people do this in
Speaker 2: all kinds of situations. It's not just about marriage. They're
Speaker 2: so afraid to just bring their true selves into the
Speaker 2: kind of relationship where the whole game here is bringing
Speaker 2: your true self to it. So if you can't practice
Speaker 2: that at any point in the relationship, you're not ready
Speaker 2: to be together for the long term. You can't just say, oh,
Speaker 2: now that we're engaged, now I can bring my true self. Well,
Speaker 2: that's a recipe for a disaster, because now it's like
Speaker 2: you've misrepresented what you actually want to need in a relationship,
Speaker 2: and maybe the other person has misinterpreted what you want
Speaker 2: to need because you haven't expressed it.
Speaker 1: But we're so I'm frilly with you. I just find
Speaker 1: that we're so it's so hardwired in us, like we're
Speaker 1: so scared of rejection, we're so scared of being able
Speaker 1: to say this is how I feel, because we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: that person's just going to walk away from me, Like
Speaker 1: this is the thing that I'm going to lose this
Speaker 1: person over if I really tell them. And I think often, Laurie,
Speaker 1: you've probably seen that people don't know how to effectively
Speaker 1: weigh their emotions. So everything's a ten. So right, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: they were late, that's a ten. They're seeing other people,
Speaker 1: that's a ten. Like everything's a ten. And so I
Speaker 1: think we're all so bad at being like, Okay, well
Speaker 1: this doesn't need to be raised because it's a two,
Speaker 1: and yet this does need to be raised because it
Speaker 1: is a nine and this is a minus five. Like
Speaker 1: I'm just being ridiculous here. And so I think because
Speaker 1: we weigh everything is a ten, then we don't know
Speaker 1: how to Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: It does? And I think that's because again, we bring
Speaker 2: so much of the relationship outside where people don't have
Speaker 2: the context. So, and that's what I was talking about earlier,
Speaker 2: is like you say, listen to what this person did,
Speaker 2: or listen to what this person is doing, and your
Speaker 2: friends sees that you're upset about it, so they say, yeah,
Speaker 2: you should really bring that up. You don't have to
Speaker 2: bring up every thought that crosses your mind. That is
Speaker 2: not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what do
Speaker 2: you value what makes you uncomfortable to the point that
Speaker 2: this is something that you want to address. So I
Speaker 2: think people either undervalue it, which is what we were
Speaker 2: talking about, and they don't bring it up because they're afraid, well,
Speaker 2: maybe it's not such a big deal, even though it
Speaker 2: is a big deal to you that this person is
Speaker 2: seeing other people. You don't feel safe, you don't feel comfortable.
Speaker 2: But then there are things that they overvalue, you know,
Speaker 2: like well this person does this or that, right. I
Speaker 2: hear this in therapy all the time, and I'm thinking, really,
Speaker 2: you know, like this is but I'm glad we're talking
Speaker 2: about it. I'm glad they brought it up in therapy
Speaker 2: because now they can understand it better and now and
Speaker 2: by the way, I think the other blind spot that
Speaker 2: people have in dating is they think these are things
Speaker 2: that make the other person not perfect, and they don't realize, oh,
Speaker 2: there are things that the other person has to compromise
Speaker 2: on to be with me that I am not perfect either.
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are so many things that I do
Speaker 2: that the other person is annoyed by or frustrated by.
Speaker 2: Or maybe if they could create, you know, a la
Speaker 2: carte the perfect person, they might not order that particular feat, sure,
Speaker 2: but I have it and they are with me anyway, right,
Speaker 2: And so we think we're going to change all these
Speaker 2: things about them without thinking about the other person is
Speaker 2: being so chill about some of my maybe less than
Speaker 2: perfect features. Absolutely so, how can we see the other
Speaker 2: person as human in these ways? So we don't have
Speaker 2: to kind of craft them, We don't have to shape
Speaker 2: them or mold them in a certain way. We just
Speaker 2: have to say, Okay, these are the big things and
Speaker 2: the other little things. Remember, they're putting up with things
Speaker 2: about me too, and I'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. There's that famous statement that says we judge
Speaker 1: other people by their actions, not their intentions. Yes, and
Speaker 1: we judge ourselves by our intentions, not our actions. And
Speaker 1: when we're looking at someone else, we're blind to their intention.
Speaker 1: It's just what they said or what they did, Whereas
Speaker 1: when we look at ourselves, we can justify why we
Speaker 1: said it. And why we did that, And we have
Speaker 1: to start offering both sides that grace and compassion and empathy,
Speaker 1: because otherwise we're going to constantly feel that everything's against
Speaker 1: us and everyone's not for us.
Speaker 2: Right when I cancel on someone, I have a good,
Speaker 2: valid reason and I still care about them. When they
Speaker 2: cancel on me, they're disrespectful and they don't care about me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. One of the biggest this is, I'm
Speaker 1: enjoying this conversation so much, Laurie, because I feel like
Speaker 1: we're really getting to like the heart and the core
Speaker 1: of so much of what I feel is making dating
Speaker 1: so challenging right now. And you know, finding love is
Speaker 1: just such an important pillar of human happiness and connection
Speaker 1: that it breaks my heart when I see that we're
Speaker 1: tripping ourselves up. Yeah. And when I ask my community,
Speaker 1: what was one of the things that they think trips
Speaker 1: them up, it was this idea that they have now
Speaker 1: coined future tripping, this idea of planning the future in
Speaker 1: their head, visioning a future with this person. When things
Speaker 1: are looking okay or good in their head, they're you know,
Speaker 1: in the most extreme cases in Madame, their wedding day
Speaker 1: or what their kids might look like. But even in
Speaker 1: the immediate sense, like this could be it, this is amazing,
Speaker 1: this is going to last, and then all of a
Speaker 1: sudden they get a reality check with that person is
Speaker 1: not really mirroring that back. How do we stop ourselves
Speaker 1: from future tripping? Or is there a healthy way of
Speaker 1: future tripping with the person? Is there a collective collaborative
Speaker 1: future tripping? Like what does that look like?
Speaker 2: I think the future tripping is being in the present,
Speaker 2: And what I mean is what's happening now is what
Speaker 2: is going to look like in the future. So instead
Speaker 2: of imagining, oh, this person will change in this way,
Speaker 2: or we're going to have this kind of life, but
Speaker 2: you don't know if the other person wants that kind
Speaker 2: of life. If you're not talking about it now in
Speaker 2: the present, you don't know how does this person treat me?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: What is it like when we're together? The biggest indicator
Speaker 2: would be we had a disagreement. How did we get
Speaker 2: through it? That's what your future is going to look like.
Speaker 2: We didn't agree on this, We were frustrated with each other,
Speaker 2: We had a difference of opinion. How did we repair
Speaker 2: that rupture? We talk a lot about rupture and repair.
Speaker 2: Everybody's going to have ruptures. You have it with your
Speaker 2: family members, with your friends, with your coworkers, with your parents,
Speaker 2: with your children, especially with your romantic partners, because we
Speaker 2: have this misguided notion that we shouldn't have a rupture
Speaker 2: with them because we're so in love and we see
Speaker 2: each other and we see eye to eye. But of
Speaker 2: course you're going to have ruptures. It's not so much
Speaker 2: whether you're going to have a rupture, it's what do
Speaker 2: you do with it and what does it look like.
Speaker 2: So if you have been dating for let's say six months,
Speaker 2: and you haven't had a rupture, you guys are not
Speaker 2: going deep enough. You guys don't know each other well enough.
Speaker 2: You're still on your best behavior. You have to be
Speaker 2: able to be yourselves. That's going to tell you what
Speaker 2: the future looks like. So stop the pretending. Be yourself,
Speaker 2: Be what you want your future to look like, Act
Speaker 2: like you want your future to look like, See how
Speaker 2: the other person acts, and see what happens between the
Speaker 2: two of you, and a repair would look like something like, Oh,
Speaker 2: I didn't you know we're having a disagreement right now.
Speaker 2: Why don't we take fifteen minutes and let's come back
Speaker 2: when we're not so heated and let's talk about that.
Speaker 2: Or you know, you made a mistake, you know what
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about this. You know, say you have
Speaker 2: an argument, you say, we're not going to talk for
Speaker 2: a few minutes, let's go cool off. Whatever. You call
Speaker 2: them back and you say, you know what I thought
Speaker 2: about it. I was wrong and I'm so sorry. Here's
Speaker 2: what I did, and I wish I had done it
Speaker 2: this way. And that's great if your partner can do that,
Speaker 2: or if you can do that right, and then if
Speaker 2: your partner then can accept that without shaming you, if
Speaker 2: your partner can say, I really appreciate that, and I
Speaker 2: wish that I had reacted differently in this way, and
Speaker 2: how can I be more supportive in those moments. That's beautiful.
Speaker 2: That's your future, but you have to see it in
Speaker 2: the present. You can't imagine what the future is going
Speaker 2: to be. You have to actually live it in the
Speaker 2: present and say, oh, now, I know it's going to
Speaker 2: be just like it is right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you're saying, like if you are making
Speaker 1: plans in your head but comfortable to talk about those plans,
Speaker 1: then they only exist in your head like they aren't real.
Speaker 1: They aren't they aren't going there. I was going to.
Speaker 1: I wanted to get your thoughts. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you watch any of these shows or whether you're exposed
Speaker 1: to them. And I know that your book's being turned
Speaker 1: into a scripted show. I believe, yes, yes, but when
Speaker 1: you look at like unscripted shows, like you look at
Speaker 1: shows like Love Island or Love is Blind, I mean
Speaker 1: Love Island right now is culturally like one of the
Speaker 1: most talked about shows in for young people for sure.
Speaker 1: How do you feel about those shows? And yes, they're entertaining,
Speaker 1: and yes we love to get into all the gossip
Speaker 1: and what's going on and everything. How is that affecting
Speaker 1: our views and our own relationships?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't actually seen those shows, but many of
Speaker 2: my therapy clients talk about them. I did just watch Bridgerton,
Speaker 2: which is a scripted show but very much like what
Speaker 2: I imagine those other shows to be. And I just
Speaker 2: think that, you know, people think that that's what it's
Speaker 2: supposed to be like. So many times people will come
Speaker 2: into therapy and they'll say, is this what it's supposed
Speaker 2: to feel like? Was it supposed to be like? And
Speaker 2: it's like, how does it feel to you? Oh, it
Speaker 2: feels really good, Well, then that's how it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2: How does it feel to you? I don't know, doesn't
Speaker 2: feel right? Well, then that's not how it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2: And that's really again coming back to can you tap
Speaker 2: into how do I feel around this person? Does it
Speaker 2: feel as you said, peaceful, calm? Do I feel safe?
Speaker 2: Do I feel comfortable? And it's not just that. It's
Speaker 2: not just that because you're gonna have friends that you
Speaker 2: feel that way around, But if you don't have that
Speaker 2: and you have the other things, that's not enough.
Speaker 1: That kind of brings me onto this next team that
Speaker 1: I want to dive into you deeply around is what
Speaker 1: is it about the five to seven year mark that
Speaker 1: ends in a divorce or a breakup?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Why is that the number that you see in the research?
Speaker 1: Why has that become such a prominent pivot point or
Speaker 1: end point? What have you seen over the years?
Speaker 2: What I see how happen around that time is several
Speaker 2: things are happening. There's a developmental change that happens throughout
Speaker 2: a marriage, and you both become different people and the
Speaker 2: relationship becomes different and you adapt together, and those are
Speaker 2: the strong marriages and the strong relationships.
Speaker 1: So that's what you're being called in to. Either you
Speaker 1: grow together or you grow.
Speaker 2: Up well, so different things happen. So, first of all,
Speaker 2: I think that sometimes people don't know each other well
Speaker 2: before they get married. Then they're married and they're like
Speaker 2: a year in and they think, oh, this isn't exactly
Speaker 2: what I wanted, but I'm in it. I'm married, And
Speaker 2: then they say, okay, let's have a baby, right, because
Speaker 2: then that's the next step. And then now that's really hard.
Speaker 2: Parenting is really challenging, and if you and your partner
Speaker 2: are not already on solid ground, it's going to be
Speaker 2: extra challenging. So then you think, oh, my partner's the problem,
Speaker 2: when actually the relationship is the problem. So many times
Speaker 2: people come into couple's therapy and the first thing that
Speaker 2: they say is the problem is and let me tell
Speaker 2: you everything that's wrong with my partner. What I do
Speaker 2: with couples therapy is I say, before you come in,
Speaker 2: I want you each to come in and say, if
Speaker 2: you were to be your best selves in this relationship,
Speaker 2: what would you need to change of yourself? Each of you?
Speaker 2: And they say it out loud, and that's all they're
Speaker 2: working on is changing that. They're not working on changing
Speaker 2: the other person. And when they do that, they say,
Speaker 2: oh wow, like that actually changes the relationship. The relationship
Speaker 2: is an entity. It's not just you know, there's two people.
Speaker 2: It's like there's three people happening. It's like there's you,
Speaker 2: there's you, and then there's the two of you. And
Speaker 2: so I think around five years either they realize I
Speaker 2: didn't know enough about this person, or I still have
Speaker 2: work to do, or other things have come into our lives.
Speaker 2: A parent got sick. It was really challenging. We didn't
Speaker 2: know how to deal with it. We had children, we
Speaker 2: didn't know how to deal with that. You know, we've
Speaker 2: had we've had difficulties, we've had loss, All kinds of
Speaker 2: things happen at that point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to say to your point, I've
Speaker 1: had so many friends who had given the advice that
Speaker 1: if your relationship's not working out, have a baby and
Speaker 1: it will save it. Terrible It's never made sense to me,
Speaker 1: because if your relationship's not working, now you have another
Speaker 1: relationship to take care of. Who is a new child,
Speaker 1: a new human being in the in the world, And
Speaker 1: so how are you you're going to give less attention
Speaker 1: to each other. You've already been given no attention. Now
Speaker 1: you have less attention to share with each other and
Speaker 1: more attention on this another being. I'm shocked that that
Speaker 1: advice still gets passed around and people still see it
Speaker 1: as a viable solution to a bad relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they think of it as like sunk costs, Like
Speaker 2: we've been married this long, so we can't we can't
Speaker 2: start over, We can't you know, what do we do
Speaker 2: to save this? Let's have a baby because it's a distraction.
Speaker 2: They think like, this will be great, it's exciting, it'll
Speaker 2: bring some vitality and energy and a liveness into the relationship,
Speaker 2: when if you don't already have that aliveness and that
Speaker 2: vitality between the two of you, the baby is not
Speaker 2: going to provide that for you. You're going to get
Speaker 2: a lot of outside attention like, oh that's so great,
Speaker 2: look at the baby. But in reality, you guys are
Speaker 2: going to have to be more of a team than
Speaker 2: you've ever been and problem solved more than you've ever
Speaker 2: had to, and figure out how to create connection under
Speaker 2: much more challenging circumstances. So it's the most counterintuitive advice.
Speaker 2: And I always tell people, if you are not solid,
Speaker 2: do not bring another person into this family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like you already don't have problem solving skills,
Speaker 1: you don't have collaboration skills, and now you're having to
Speaker 1: make choices on behalf of an entirely new human being
Speaker 1: where the stakes are so high and everything feels like
Speaker 1: it's personal of whether things are going well for the
Speaker 1: child or not.
Speaker 2: Well, what happened? Does the Pain Olympics start? And what
Speaker 2: I mean is that you know I had the baby
Speaker 2: all day. I have it harder. You didn't do this. No,
Speaker 2: I had it harder because I've been at work all
Speaker 2: day and now I have to take over this and
Speaker 2: you didn't have to work all day. Whatever it is.
Speaker 2: They vie for who has the most pain, and then
Speaker 2: they compete for it, and that becomes their relationship. You know, well,
Speaker 2: you owe me because I won the Pain Olympics today. No,
Speaker 2: you owe me because yesterday I won the Pain Olympics
Speaker 2: and I never got my reward, and that becomes their
Speaker 2: whole relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the questions I asked people when they
Speaker 1: say to me like should we have kids now? Or
Speaker 1: is it the right time to have children? I often
Speaker 1: say that I think we're asking the wrong question, Like
Speaker 1: the question should be do I know how my life
Speaker 1: is going to change? And am I ready for that?
Speaker 1: And am I aware of that? And are we aware
Speaker 1: of how our life is going to change? To the
Speaker 1: point you're making of well, who is going to take
Speaker 1: the responsibility? And am I going to feel like you're
Speaker 1: not helping out? And what does that look like? Again,
Speaker 1: having a conversation about it seems like the practical thing
Speaker 1: to do. Another relationship that seems to add more complexity
Speaker 1: since the beginning of time is in laws. You mentioned
Speaker 1: it earlier that you have clients that come in to
Speaker 1: see you for that the amount of friends of going
Speaker 1: to recently, you have this challenge where they feel that
Speaker 1: the in laws are too involved, their in laws are
Speaker 1: not involved, when their in laws are too involved, There too,
Speaker 1: can controlling of either or one of the partners, or
Speaker 1: their expectations. They have certain demands on time and holidays
Speaker 1: and where they're spent and all of these kinds of things.
Speaker 1: What I've found to be the core pain again, going
Speaker 1: back to our earlier conversation, is people feel their partners'
Speaker 1: parents are too involved, too demanding, too hands on, but
Speaker 1: they feel their partner can't stand up to their parents
Speaker 1: and their partner doesn't understand how it affects them. That's
Speaker 1: kind of where I've seen the main pressure that people
Speaker 1: are carrying. How does someone deal with the fact that
Speaker 1: they feel their partner doesn't defend them or stand up
Speaker 1: for them in front of their partner's parents, and therefore
Speaker 1: they feel their partner doesn't understand what they're going through.
Speaker 2: I have gotten thousands of letters to my column and
Speaker 2: to my podcast about in laws, and what I always
Speaker 2: say is in law issues are couples issues. So people
Speaker 2: think it's about the mother in law the father in law.
Speaker 2: It's about the two of you. And if your partner,
Speaker 2: whose parent that is, cannot talk to their parent on
Speaker 2: your behalf, that's a couple's issue. So the person will say, oh,
Speaker 2: it's really not that bad. But if your partner is saying,
Speaker 2: I am really struggling with this and it's not your
Speaker 2: you know it's not their parent. You need to talk
Speaker 2: to your own parent about this. You need to have
Speaker 2: your partners back, and if you don't, your partner is
Speaker 2: going to feel that you are treating them the same
Speaker 2: way that their parent is. You might not be doing
Speaker 2: the same thing, but the fact that they don't have
Speaker 2: your support is going to pull you apart in this
Speaker 2: marriage because your partner. It's not about taking sides, it's
Speaker 2: about prioritizing this couple's relationship and saying, listen, when you
Speaker 2: do this, it makes my wife feel like she's not
Speaker 2: a good parent or she's not a good wife. And
Speaker 2: you might have these values, mom, and I understand that,
Speaker 2: but I don't want you saying the kinds of things.
Speaker 2: You can have. Whatever thoughts you have, please don't say
Speaker 2: them to me or to my wife, because I'm very
Speaker 2: happy with our relationship. And what you're really standing up
Speaker 2: for is the relationship. It's not just standing up for
Speaker 2: your partner, is standing up for we understanding each other.
Speaker 2: We can talk about these things with each other and
Speaker 2: we do not want that kind of interference.
Speaker 1: What do you do when your partner doesn't have the
Speaker 1: guts to do that, When they don't have the authority
Speaker 1: or the relationship with their own parents, which is constantly
Speaker 1: being they've been baby, they've been you know, the mummy's boy,
Speaker 1: or whatever it may be, and they don't really have
Speaker 1: the courage to stand up to their parents and say
Speaker 1: what you just said, which isn't rude, it's not mean,
Speaker 1: but in their head they're like, how could I ever
Speaker 1: defy my parents? Like what does that look like? Or
Speaker 1: or they're guilt tripped like by their parents, where it's
Speaker 1: like they're like, I can never do that to my mom,
Speaker 1: like she's loved me since day one, Like you just
Speaker 1: turned up in my life two years ago, Like what
Speaker 1: do you do when your partner's feeling that way?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think you help your partner to understand
Speaker 2: that this is a very loving thing for the relationship
Speaker 2: with the parent too. So you're not telling the parent
Speaker 2: I don't want you in our lives. You're saying I
Speaker 2: want you in our lives. We both want you in
Speaker 2: our lives, but we want you in our lives in
Speaker 2: a way that makes us feel like we're enjoying our
Speaker 2: time with you. And if it becomes this thing where
Speaker 2: we're not enjoying our time with you and it becomes problematic,
Speaker 2: we're going to be spending less time with you, and mom,
Speaker 2: I don't want that and my wife doesn't want that.
Speaker 2: We both want to spend time with you. We just
Speaker 2: want it to be enjoyable. So we're asking that you
Speaker 2: not talk about this whatever the issue is, or you
Speaker 2: not do this, or you not tell my wife to
Speaker 2: do this, or you're not criticized, because that makes it
Speaker 2: not enjoyable, and then we're going to see you less.
Speaker 2: And we love you so much that we feel comfortable
Speaker 2: saying this to you. If we didn't love you and
Speaker 2: we didn't care how much we saw you, we wouldn't
Speaker 2: be bringing this up. I'm bringing this up because I
Speaker 2: love you and I want to be able to see you.
Speaker 2: And I think when people when you set back in
Speaker 2: a loving way, when you say I want to see
Speaker 2: more of you, I want to be able to continue
Speaker 2: to see you. I'm not pushing you away. I'm pulling
Speaker 2: you close. But the way to pull you close is
Speaker 2: to make sure that we have a good time together.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I find that sometimes it can be
Speaker 1: different in every relationship, but often this at least and
Speaker 1: the people I know, the pressure often falls on the
Speaker 1: man who feels like he's in between his mom and
Speaker 1: his wife that in that kind of a setup, or
Speaker 1: at least those are the ones that I'm aware of
Speaker 1: and I'm sure it has takes all sorts of forms,
Speaker 1: but it's often quite a heavy pressure that I know
Speaker 1: a lot of men feel. And they're like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to let my mom down and I don't want
Speaker 1: to let my wife down. And now I'm stuck in
Speaker 1: between these two things, and it's almost like who do
Speaker 1: I choose?
Speaker 2: And I feel like I have to choose a side, right,
Speaker 2: But you're not choosing, You're actually choosing to bring everyone together.
Speaker 2: You're saying, I want us all to be able to
Speaker 2: be together, and so what I'm doing is I'm making
Speaker 2: sure that we can spend more time together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great advice, and I really hope that reframe
Speaker 1: is kind of, you know, permeates. One of the things
Speaker 1: I imagine you see a lot in therapy is one
Speaker 1: partner has forced the other partner to come there. Maybe
Speaker 1: in couples therapy, it's hard for two people to feel
Speaker 1: equally as excited. Maybe if they're premarrit or that may
Speaker 1: be more equal, but when it's reactive, it's definitely one
Speaker 1: saying we need to go to therapy, and someone may
Speaker 1: feel forced. One thing I've found that a lot of
Speaker 1: people say to me is Jair, I just can't get
Speaker 1: my partner to open up, Like, whether it's in therapy,
Speaker 1: whether it's with me, I'm asking them, I'm talking to them,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I just want to know what you feel.
Speaker 1: Like even with the question you said earlier of like, hey,
Speaker 1: I have a dream to get married. What's your take
Speaker 1: on it? And they'll be like, I don't know, or
Speaker 1: they'll they'll go quiet when it's like, hey, we need
Speaker 1: to go talk to your parents about this because they're
Speaker 1: getting really involved and they just go quiet. They don't
Speaker 1: know what to say, and they constantly feel that these
Speaker 1: their partner doesn't have the capacity to open up. And
Speaker 1: I find this especially with young couples, where they're just like,
Speaker 1: my partner doesn't have an emotional vocabulary, Like they don't
Speaker 1: have the ability. How have you encouraged people in those
Speaker 1: scenarios to be able to open up or help their
Speaker 1: partners open up or create a safe space when a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't have that skill and that ability
Speaker 1: to actually even know what they're feeling and thinking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to create the space for that person
Speaker 2: to feel comfortable opening up. So often people who can't
Speaker 2: open up or have a hard time with it. They
Speaker 2: were not given the space before, so when they opened up,
Speaker 2: someone would say, oh, no, you don't feel that way, right.
Speaker 2: So when they were growing up, they'd say, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm upset about this, or I'm sad about this, and
Speaker 2: the parent would say, no, don't be sad, let's go
Speaker 2: get ice cream. Right, So there was no space for
Speaker 2: the sadness. Or I'm really angry about this. Oh, you're overreacting.
Speaker 2: You're so sensitive, So they don't tell someone that they're
Speaker 2: angry about something, or I'm really worried about this. Oh,
Speaker 2: don't worry, It'll all work out. Or what do you
Speaker 2: mean you're worried about that? Why are you always so
Speaker 2: worried about everything? So they never felt like they had
Speaker 2: a space for their feelings to be received and held.
Speaker 2: We talk about in therapy the concept of feeling felt.
Speaker 2: What does it mean to feel felt? And I love
Speaker 2: that expression because I think that when you want someone
Speaker 2: to open up, they want to feel felt. They want
Speaker 2: to know that you're going to receive whatever they have
Speaker 2: to offer in a compassionate way and in a way
Speaker 2: that feels connecting. So when you tell someone tell me
Speaker 2: what you're feeling, open up that feels like so much
Speaker 2: pressure as opposed to just you know, being with them.
Speaker 1: So maybe you.
Speaker 2: Start with something like, hey, I'm feeling really this about this.
Speaker 2: You know, what was that like for you? And they
Speaker 2: might say it was fine because they don't know did
Speaker 2: you have a good time?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: Did it make you sad when this happened? It made
Speaker 2: me sad? But maybe you didn't feel that way, you know,
Speaker 2: just just helping them to have the vocabulary. There's this
Speaker 2: thing called a feelings wheel, and a lot of people
Speaker 2: only learned like with the colors, the primary colors, right,
Speaker 2: so red, yellow, blue, right, And then if you mix
Speaker 2: red and yellow you get orange and there's more nuance.
Speaker 2: And if you put more yellow, it becomes more yellowy orange, right,
Speaker 2: And so people only know like happy, sad, mad, but
Speaker 2: they don't know like I felt frustrated, I felt scared,
Speaker 2: I felt vulnerable, I felt anxious. But where did you
Speaker 2: feel the anxiety? Well, I felt it in my belly,
Speaker 2: I felt it in my chest, right, So there's so
Speaker 2: much nuance. And for people who don't open up, they
Speaker 2: often only have those three primary emotions, and then they
Speaker 2: don't really know how to describe what they're feeling, so
Speaker 2: you can mirror that for them and model that when
Speaker 2: you talk about your feelings, Like I was really afraid
Speaker 2: of that and I was really angry, but actually, underneath
Speaker 2: the anger with my friend, I was feeling hurt and
Speaker 2: I realized I was feeling really hurt by her behavior
Speaker 2: and it seemed like I was angry, but I'm feeling
Speaker 2: really neglected. And so, you know, did you ever feel
Speaker 2: that way? Have you ever felt you know, whatever it is,
Speaker 2: But it just like it just becomes part of the air.
Speaker 2: It's not like, sit down, face me and tell me
Speaker 2: how you're feeling. Open up to me. That feels like
Speaker 2: so much pressure, but it just like it's in the air.
Speaker 2: And they've never lived in that environment before, you have
Speaker 2: to remember, So it's just this is a new planet
Speaker 2: that they've landed on, and here's it's like a new
Speaker 2: Let's say it's a new city and in this city,
Speaker 2: we speak a different language and we speak in the
Speaker 2: language of emotion, and they're going to start to pick
Speaker 2: up the language bit by bit, but they're not going
Speaker 2: to be fluent right out the cause they don't say,
Speaker 2: speak French to me. It's like, oh, here's this new language.
Speaker 2: You'll pick up a few words here and there.
Speaker 1: That's so good. That's such a great visual and analogy.
Speaker 1: Like if I turn up in a different city or
Speaker 1: a different country and someone just expected me to know
Speaker 1: how to speak that language, I would feel so much pressure.
Speaker 1: And actually we've all experienced that. We're like, I don't
Speaker 1: even want to try and say a sentence yea, I
Speaker 1: feel I'm going to sound so stupid. It's that comfortability,
Speaker 1: and that could take a while. This is my last
Speaker 1: question I want to ask you today, Laurie. What how
Speaker 1: long no abuse? Not some is extremely that? How long
Speaker 1: can you tolerate disrespect, confusion and distance from your partner
Speaker 1: before you feel this is enough? I can't do it anymore.
Speaker 1: I feel like every relationship goes through phases and periods
Speaker 1: of distance, of disconnect, of disagreements. It's normal, it's going
Speaker 1: to happen across a long period of time. But when
Speaker 1: does an individual say, you know what, I can't do
Speaker 1: this anymore. I can't keep tolerating this. What have you
Speaker 1: found that makes people feel strongly about leaning in that
Speaker 1: direction versus I can I'm in it for some more. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, there's a study that shows that
Speaker 2: if you think of your relationship like a bank account
Speaker 2: and you want to have lots of good will in there,
Speaker 2: Let's say it's an account of good will, and you
Speaker 2: don't want to take a lot of withdrawals. So when
Speaker 2: we talk about disrespect, so you need five positive interactions
Speaker 2: for every one negative interact, or you're going to be
Speaker 2: operating in deficit spending and it won't work. But we're
Speaker 2: talking about maybe the confusion, or somebody had a bad
Speaker 2: moment but they repaired it. Those kinds of things. Disrespect
Speaker 2: is so corrosive in a relationship. So if someone does
Speaker 2: it the first time, like the cement during you say,
Speaker 2: hey that you don't tell them you were so disrespectful,
Speaker 2: that was so mean. You say, I felt really disrespected
Speaker 2: by that. Can you tell me what you actually meant?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And they may say, oh, I'm sorry I said it
Speaker 2: that way. I should not have said it that way.
Speaker 2: Here's what I meant and it came off completely different,
Speaker 2: and I will make sure that doesn't happen anymore. That's
Speaker 2: the response you want, right, And here's what I was thinking,
Speaker 2: and I need to work on that. If someone says
Speaker 2: that wasn't you know, if you said I felt disrespected,
Speaker 2: and they said, well, it wasn't disrespectful or I didn't
Speaker 2: intend for it to be. You say, okay, you didn't
Speaker 2: intend for it to be, but it felt disrespectful to me,
Speaker 2: and let me explain more about why. And the person
Speaker 2: still is like, well, I didn't mean it, okay, but
Speaker 2: here's how it landed on me. That person doesn't seem
Speaker 2: like they have a lot of flexibility. The number one
Speaker 2: trait after emotional stability that predicts the success of two
Speaker 2: people having a good relationship is flexibility. You cannot have
Speaker 2: a good relationship with neuroticism, rigidity, lack of self awareness.
Speaker 2: So if this person can't respond to you and they're
Speaker 2: still being disrespectful, I would not wait. The question is
Speaker 2: are you being clear about what disrespect is, because again
Speaker 2: then we get to you know, someone said something that
Speaker 2: maybe was not disrespectful, but because of your history, you
Speaker 2: hear something as being disrespectful. You know, they might have
Speaker 2: said like, oh, I don't know if that that job
Speaker 2: is worthy of you, and you hear that is are
Speaker 2: you saying that like I have a bad job and
Speaker 2: you're saying no, I think your worth is higher than
Speaker 2: your job. Right, So that person was actually being very
Speaker 2: respectful of you and saying the opposite of what you thought.
Speaker 2: So you have to really be clear about can I
Speaker 2: hear this person clearly? But if this person is critical
Speaker 2: of you, and sometimes the way they frame it is, oh,
Speaker 2: I was just kidding. You can't take a joke that
Speaker 2: is so abusive, so it's not funny. Criticism is not
Speaker 2: a funny way of making a joke. And if you
Speaker 2: have to put someone down to be funny, then that's
Speaker 2: probably not someone you want to be in a relationship with.
Speaker 1: Laurie, thank you so much for coming and sharing your
Speaker 1: wealth of wisdom and depth of insight today with our community.
Speaker 1: I want to thank everyone who's been listening and watching
Speaker 1: for your amazing questions. Please keep sending them through so
Speaker 1: that we can keep getting Lorrie back. I think you've
Speaker 1: helped identify so many root issues today. I feel like
Speaker 1: we've really got to a place of talking about some
Speaker 1: of the deepest aspects of where we go wrong at
Speaker 1: the same time as talking about a lot of the
Speaker 1: day to day challenges that we seem to hear about.
Speaker 1: And I really hope that everyone who's listening and watching,
Speaker 1: I hope this helps you in your love life to
Speaker 1: find deeper connections, to find more meaningful relationships, and ultimately
Speaker 1: maintain a natural, healthy, truly nourishing relationship with a partner.
Speaker 1: And wishing you all the best in your love life.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much again, Laurie for being here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and thank you so much for having me, And
Speaker 2: thank you to your audience for submitting so many great questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks Larie. Hey everyone, if you love that conversation,
Speaker 1: go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist,
Speaker 1: Laurie Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people
Speaker 1: ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak,
Speaker 1: and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space
Speaker 1: right now, you won't want to miss this conversation.
Speaker 2: If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard
Speaker 2: to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold
Speaker 2: hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.