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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Jay here. My wife and I have

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Speaker 1: shelves at Target. So head to our store locator at

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Speaker 1: Drinkjuni dot com and find Juni at a Target near you.

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Speaker 2: We have this saying we're burying our unfinished business. We

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Speaker 2: date our unfinished business too. If you're not doing the work,

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Speaker 2: you're going to be behind. Therapist's best selling author Loory Gotlief.

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Speaker 1: What would you say to someone who's saying, I have

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Speaker 1: to kind of compromise and make sure this is the

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Speaker 1: one because I have to get to that point, because

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Speaker 1: I want to be in a relationship. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get the pick of the bunch because I'm thirty five

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Speaker 1: years old and I haven't found someone.

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Speaker 2: If you are not in a place where you want

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Speaker 2: to be with a relationship, you have to understand why.

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Speaker 1: Am I behind for being single? At twenty eight, the

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Speaker 1: number one health and wellness podcast.

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Speaker 2: Jay Sheidy, Jay Sheddy See Only Ja Sheet.

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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Welcome back to you on purpose. I am

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Speaker 1: so grateful that you're here with me today. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for lending me your ears and guys for the next

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Speaker 1: few moments as we dive into how you can become happier, healthier,

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Speaker 1: and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favorites.

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Speaker 1: You absolutely love it whenever she's on the show. We've

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Speaker 1: obviously reached out already to you for your questions for

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Speaker 1: her as well. I'm talking about your favorite therapist, Laurie Guttlieb,

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Speaker 1: saga therapist and New York Times best selling author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has sold nearly

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Speaker 1: two million copies and is currently being adapted as a

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Speaker 1: television series. In addition to a clinical practice, she's the

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Speaker 1: co host of the popular Dear Therapist podcast. If you're

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Speaker 1: not subscribed already, make sure you go and do that.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to on Purpose, Lurie Cutleeve. Laurie, it's great

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Speaker 1: to have you back.

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Speaker 2: It's so great to be here, Jake.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, every time you come in here and we have

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Speaker 1: these conversations, they just go crazy viral online. People love

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Speaker 1: your advice, they love your insight. They always want you back,

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Speaker 1: And I'm so thankful to you that you always choose

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Speaker 1: to come back. So it means a lot to me

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Speaker 1: that you're back here with me.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me back.

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Speaker 1: We've done what we did last time because people loved

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Speaker 1: it so much. We've gone out to our audience, gone

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Speaker 1: out to our community. I've even reached out to some

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Speaker 1: friends and I've crowdsourced all of their challenges, all of

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Speaker 1: their issues, all of their real life experiences that they're

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Speaker 1: going through. And some of these people don't have access

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Speaker 1: to therapists. Some of these people maybe can't afford it.

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Speaker 1: Some of these people maybe even have therapists but are

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Speaker 1: still struggling trying to figure it out. And so I

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Speaker 1: love the fact that we can use you as our

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Speaker 1: community therapist and learn from you. So I want to

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Speaker 1: dive straight in.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 1: One of the biggest questions I'm hearing and getting from

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Speaker 1: people in my community and audience. Is am I behind

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Speaker 1: for being single at twenty eight?

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Speaker 2: Hmmm? You know, it's so interesting because I think that

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Speaker 2: we tend to compare ourselves so much to other people,

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Speaker 2: especially with social media. You know, we look at you know,

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Speaker 2: what is everybody else doing at my age? Is what

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Speaker 2: is the right thing? And you are exactly where you

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Speaker 2: need to be if you are doing the work. If

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Speaker 2: you're not doing the work, you're going to be behind.

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Speaker 2: And what I mean by doing the work is if

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Speaker 2: you are not in a place where you want to

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Speaker 2: be with a relationship, you have to understand why. So

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Speaker 2: are you examining what has not worked yet? Why if

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Speaker 2: I am single and I don't want to be single,

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Speaker 2: what can I be doing differently? And so I think

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Speaker 2: that's the important work. So you're not behind at all.

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Speaker 2: In fact, you're probably ahead of people who are in

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Speaker 2: relationships who have not and the work and maybe aren't

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Speaker 2: in the right relationship or are in a relationship that's

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Speaker 2: not going to last or isn't going well.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's such a hard thing to face,

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Speaker 1: right because we think the problem is external to us,

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Speaker 1: and what you're saying is well, actually the work needs

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Speaker 1: to be done internally, and so often we're trying to

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Speaker 1: solve and shift and construct what's happening around of us

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Speaker 1: rather than looking inward. Why do you think that is?

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Speaker 1: Why is it that we struggle to actually do the work?

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Speaker 1: What does that look like?

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Speaker 2: I think it's so much easier when we talk to

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Speaker 2: our friends, and you know, I've talked about the difference

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Speaker 2: between idiot compassion and why is compassion before idiot compassion

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Speaker 2: is you say to your friend, look what happened on

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Speaker 2: this date, or look what happened with this person and

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Speaker 2: they say, yeah, you're right, they're wrong, and we never

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Speaker 2: learn or grow from that right because yes, there might

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Speaker 2: be something that the other person did, but also what

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Speaker 2: was your role in that interaction? A relationship is all

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Speaker 2: about relating, So what was your role in the dance

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Speaker 2: that you're doing with this person? And what you get

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Speaker 2: in therapy is you get wise compassion where we hold

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Speaker 2: up a mirror to you and we help you to

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Speaker 2: see something about what your role is, maybe something you

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Speaker 2: haven't been willing or able to see, but that's so

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Speaker 2: important so you don't repeat these situations where you're in

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Speaker 2: this pattern and then you wonder, why do I keep

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Speaker 2: ending up with a person who doesn't listen to me,

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Speaker 2: or a person where I don't feel seen, or where

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Speaker 2: I can't be myself, or where we have a lot

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Speaker 2: of volatility, or where this person's really avoidant. Why am

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Speaker 2: I always with people who avoid or what makes me avoid?

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Speaker 2: And I don't talk to the person about what I

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Speaker 2: want or what I need. So that's the work that's

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Speaker 2: really important. So you're not behind if you're single at

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Speaker 2: twenty eight. It's part of the process. If you're doing

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Speaker 2: the work, you're much closer than you've ever been to

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Speaker 2: finding the person that you want to be with.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that. I remember talking about

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Speaker 1: it in my book that I wrote called Eight Rules

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Speaker 1: of Love, and it was this idea of relationship karma,

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Speaker 1: and I was using the concept of karma from the

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Speaker 1: East in tradition to understand that karma is every action

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Speaker 1: has a reaction, and it was can you pinpoint what

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Speaker 1: action you've taken in order to end up in the

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Speaker 1: same experience with a different person. So as you were

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Speaker 1: saying that whether you keep attracting an avoidant person, you

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Speaker 1: keep attracting someone who doesn't listen to you. You keep

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Speaker 1: attracting someone who is interested for a month, but then

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Speaker 1: disconnect or whatever it may be, and it's like, where,

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Speaker 1: what action have you taken in your choice, in your

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Speaker 1: curation of this individual, in your approach to this individual

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Speaker 1: that has potentially led to that.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's so spot on. We know we have this

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Speaker 2: saying we bury our unfinished business. We date our unfinished

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Speaker 2: business too. So if you, let's say, earlier in your life,

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Speaker 2: you were around someone who you know was neglectful, somebody

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Speaker 2: who drank too much, somebody who lost their temper, somebody

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Speaker 2: who wasn't honest, somebody who wasn't reliable. We think when

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Speaker 2: we're dating as adults, like I want the opposite of that.

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Speaker 2: I want someone where I feel safe, secure, there's trust.

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Speaker 2: But what happens is unconsciously, Again, if we haven't done

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Speaker 2: the work our unfinished business, we actually are unconsciousness. Oh

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Speaker 2: you look familiar, come closer. So on the surface, they

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Speaker 2: don't look like that person, but then when you get

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Speaker 2: to know them, you're a month in, you're three months in,

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Speaker 2: you're six months in, you think, wow, that person reminds

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Speaker 2: me of someone. This person feels so familiar, And that's

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Speaker 2: why I was drawn to this person. It turns out

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Speaker 2: this person is very much like what I grew up with,

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Speaker 2: is very much like the person who hurt me growing up.

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Speaker 2: So if you do the work, you're able to see, oh,

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Speaker 2: that person, I see why I'm drawn to them, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not drawn to them in a healthy way. And

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Speaker 2: then if you do even more work, you're not even

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Speaker 2: drawn to those people anymore. Now you're drawn to healthy people,

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Speaker 2: stable people, flexible people, emotionally generous people, people whose values

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Speaker 2: align with yours. That's who you're drawn to. So you

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Speaker 2: have to do the work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I'm so glad that you've made that the

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Speaker 1: reminder because I think often we validate and make people

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Speaker 1: feel like it's okay that they're single, and I think

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Speaker 1: you are doing that, But I think this is a

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Speaker 1: step further, which is like you are behind if you're

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Speaker 1: not actually learning from the experiences that got you here

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Speaker 1: and you're not actually refining it. Another pressure that I

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Speaker 1: feel that mounts on people as time goes on. It's

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Speaker 1: so fascinating to me that we're in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: We hope that we're living in a society that is

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Speaker 1: letting go of timelines. That's letting go of gender roles,

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Speaker 1: that's letting go of these boundaries and limits that are

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Speaker 1: placed on us because of what age we are and

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Speaker 1: what gender we are and everything else. But I find

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Speaker 1: that internally, we all actually still carry a lot of

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Speaker 1: those pressures. And another big question for our community was

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Speaker 1: if I do get into a relationship in my early thirties,

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Speaker 1: do I now have to rush things like do I? Often?

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Speaker 1: What I heard was people were saying, I feel like

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Speaker 1: I have to feel like this person is the one

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Speaker 1: because I'm running out of time, and I have this

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Speaker 1: fear that the pool is getting so much smaller as

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Speaker 1: I get into my early thirties that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: have the worst pick because no good people are going

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Speaker 1: to be left. Now, we know that all of these

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Speaker 1: things are not factually true, they're not data backed, like

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Speaker 1: these are ideas, but these are the kind of thoughts

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Speaker 1: that I'm hearing from people who are entering that space.

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Speaker 1: What would you say to someone who's saying, Laurie, I

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Speaker 1: feel I have to rush things. I have to kind

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Speaker 1: of compromise and make sure this is the one because

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Speaker 1: I have to get to that point because I want

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Speaker 1: to be in a relationship, and actually I fear that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get the worst pick of the bunch

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Speaker 1: because I'm thirty five years old and i haven't found someone.

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Speaker 2: We literally just had someone like this on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: and she felt like, I have to decide right away

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Speaker 2: if this is the person, and if there's any issues here,

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Speaker 2: I have to leave right away, as opposed to understanding

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Speaker 2: that if she doesn't understand what these issues are about,

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Speaker 2: she will just repeat that in the next relationship. I mean,

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Speaker 2: these were not you know, there's certain kinds of issues

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Speaker 2: that are red flags. These were not red flag issues.

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Speaker 2: These were normal relational types of things, communication types of things.

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Speaker 2: And what we told her was, you need to slow

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Speaker 2: down in order to save time. And it sounds counterintuitive

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Speaker 2: because people think, wait a minute, I need to hurry

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Speaker 2: up in order to save time. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: waste time. But you need to slow down so that

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Speaker 2: you can say what is right in front of me

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Speaker 2: right now. If I put that kind of pressure on myself,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to make decisions for all kinds of the

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Speaker 2: wrong reasons. So I'm going to make them because you know,

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Speaker 2: we talk about the difference sort of the head and

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Speaker 2: the heart you're going to make head decisions instead of

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Speaker 2: heart decisions. You need both. My son taught me this. Actually,

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Speaker 2: he was saying, I've been making too many head decisions

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Speaker 2: and I need to make more heart decisions. And it's

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Speaker 2: about how do you find the balance between those two things.

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Speaker 2: So what we told her, this woman on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: was we said, why don't the two of you go

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Speaker 2: to therapy for let's say you put a time limit

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Speaker 2: on it. We're going to go for six months. And

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Speaker 2: she said six months. I don't have six months to waste.

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Speaker 2: And I said, it's not going to be a waste.

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Speaker 2: No matter whether you stay in this relationship or you

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Speaker 2: go to a different relationship, you're going to learn so

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Speaker 2: much about yourself in relationship that you can't learn if

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Speaker 2: you're not in a relationship, because you need to be

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Speaker 2: able to have these interactions to understand what they trigger

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Speaker 2: in you, what they bring up in you, and you

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Speaker 2: can't do that in isolation. So many people say I

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Speaker 2: need to completely understand myself before I can go and date,

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Speaker 2: and I say, you're going to learn so much about yourself.

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Speaker 2: You want the best tutorial on who you are and

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Speaker 2: your operating instructions and what makes you tick. Get in

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Speaker 2: a relationship with somebody, you will be pushed and challenged

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Speaker 2: in ways that you aren't challenged when it's just you

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Speaker 2: sitting there thinking. So we said to her, go to

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Speaker 2: couple's therapy for six months, and then you will learn

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Speaker 2: so much about yourself and you will know so much

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Speaker 2: more about whether you two are the right combination, are

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Speaker 2: the right couple. And so we do follow ups. We

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Speaker 2: do your follow ups. Since she came back a year later,

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Speaker 2: and she said, I was going to leave this person,

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Speaker 2: and I am so glad that I didn't because I

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Speaker 2: learned that some of this was me and I didn't

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Speaker 2: have the maturity. I didn't understand a lot of things,

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Speaker 2: and I grew so much, and I am so in

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Speaker 2: love with this person. And I would have left because

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Speaker 2: I was panicked. Now it could have ended up the

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Speaker 2: other way too, that she left, which would have also

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Speaker 2: been good if it wasn't the right person, and then

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Speaker 2: she would have found the right person because of the

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Speaker 2: work that she did. So I would say to these

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Speaker 2: people who feel like I have to hurry, I have

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Speaker 2: to know right away. Relax, slow down, give yourself a timeline.

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Speaker 2: Don't stay in that relationship for five years and be

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Speaker 2: ambivalent about what you want to do, but slow down,

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Speaker 2: give yourself a year of doing the work with this person,

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Speaker 2: and then you will know so much more about yourself.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I am so excited about this because we've got

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Speaker 1: the first ever merch drop for on Purpose. It's finally here,

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Speaker 1: and for what mental health? Today we're doing an exclusive

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Speaker 1: limited edition drop with all the proceeds going to the

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Speaker 1: National Alliance on Mental Illness NAMI. So now you can

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Speaker 1: wear your on Purpose merch, listen to the podcast and

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Speaker 1: know that you two are having an impact. I want

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Speaker 1: to thank you so much in advance. I can't wait

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Speaker 1: to see all of your pictures wearing the merch. Their's sweatshirts,

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Speaker 1: a hat, t shirts. Check it out on our website

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Speaker 1: jshetdyshop dot com. That's Jshettishop dot com. And remember, one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent of the proceeds go to NAMI. Some people

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Speaker 1: are good for you now and some people may become

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Speaker 1: good for you forever. But this idea that if someone's

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Speaker 1: good for me now and they're not forever, then I

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Speaker 1: don't want them now isn't the healthiest idea, because the

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Speaker 1: growth you might make with this person who may not

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Speaker 1: be your forever person, could be so powerful and useful

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Speaker 1: in your forever relationship, and you won't know that until

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Speaker 1: you're actually getting to know them. I had a friend

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Speaker 1: recently who went through that scenario where they felt that

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Speaker 1: this individual they were with was helping them grow, helping

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Speaker 1: them understand themselves. They were doing the same back, and

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Speaker 1: they realized during the course of that relationship that this

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Speaker 1: wasn't the one that was going to be the marriage

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Speaker 1: and the long term commitment. But they feel like they

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Speaker 1: both grew so much as individuals. And you constantly in

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Speaker 1: this conversation so far, you've talked about doing the deep

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Speaker 1: work on your own, You've talked about working with that person.

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Speaker 1: What's really interesting is that after all this time, and

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Speaker 1: no matter how many books we read, and no matter

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Speaker 1: how many podcasts we listen to, there's still this belief

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Speaker 1: that when we meet the person, it will be easy,

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Speaker 1: it'll be simple, and everything will just make sense. I

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Speaker 1: feel like a lot of people also who found love

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Speaker 1: in a magical way, will say things like when you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you just feel it, and then people

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Speaker 1: feel like they're have to find that feeling and that

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Speaker 1: love should be easy and simple and flow. I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: from what you're saying so far that it's not really

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Speaker 1: the only way. It can require work. It does require work.

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Speaker 1: I've been with my wife for eleven years now, and

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Speaker 1: I can honestly say that some parts have been really

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Speaker 1: easy and some parts have required work. And I believe

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Speaker 1: we work on it consistently and that's why it becomes

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Speaker 1: easier than it would become harder. But I feel like

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Speaker 1: there's this Disney magic belief we still all carry so

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Speaker 1: deep rooted in us that love should be easy. What

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Speaker 1: would you say to someone who is carrying that experience

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Speaker 1: or that vision of love in their heart and mind? Right?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, you know, when we look at

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Speaker 2: attachment styles, if you have a secure attachment, sometimes it

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Speaker 2: is easier for you to know whether this person is

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Speaker 2: going to be someone you want to pursue long term.

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Speaker 2: But even then things will come up. But also many

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Speaker 2: of us are not securely attached, meaning that we had

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Speaker 2: inconsistent caregivers or we had you know, parents do their best,

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Speaker 2: but parents are also imperfect. Parents have their own parents,

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Speaker 2: and they have their own histories which makes them parent

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Speaker 2: in a certain way. So there are certain ways in

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Speaker 2: which we didn't get parented the way we wanted to

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Speaker 2: get parented, and we come into relationships maybe we don't

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Speaker 2: trust and then we think, oh, I can't trust that person,

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Speaker 2: But it's really not about the other person. They're completely trustworthy,

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Speaker 2: but you just don't trust the world, you don't trust

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Speaker 2: the universe, you don't even maybe trust yourself. So those

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Speaker 2: people maybe feel like, well, this is really hard because

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Speaker 2: I don't really trust this person, but they're not looking

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Speaker 2: at Maybe it's hard because you are bringing something into

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Speaker 2: this right, so the magic might come, might be there,

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Speaker 2: but you have to be able to learn how to trust,

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Speaker 2: and maybe at the beginning of that relationship it's going

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Speaker 2: to be a little bit hard for you. So it's

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Speaker 2: not going to look like the Disney the romantic comedies

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Speaker 2: that we all see. But I think the other thing

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Speaker 2: is there's a study that I love that I think

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Speaker 2: more people should know about, which is that they did

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Speaker 2: this longitudinal study, so that means they followed people over

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Speaker 2: twenty years and they checked in every five years, and

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Speaker 2: they started with the first date. When you met this person,

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Speaker 2: you write down your impressions. And some people said, you know, oh,

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Speaker 2: this person there's so much magic, there's so much chemistry.

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Speaker 2: And some people said it was fine, yeah, I'd probably

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Speaker 2: see this person again, but nothing great, right, And then

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Speaker 2: they followed them every five years, and what they found

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Speaker 2: after twenty years was that the people who were happily

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Speaker 2: married to each other did change their story. So at

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Speaker 2: the time they had said like, yeah, I'm not really sure,

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Speaker 2: nice person, no butterflies, no spark, they said, oh, I

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Speaker 2: knew right away. They changed the story because now the

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Speaker 2: story is filtered through the way their marriage is. Now

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Speaker 2: people who were unhappy, who got divorced or were still

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Speaker 2: married but were unhappy, you know, said things like, oh,

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Speaker 2: there was no chemistry. There was never any chemistry, no

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Speaker 2: right away, even though at the time they said magic, right,

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Speaker 2: that's so good. So I think it's so important for

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Speaker 2: people to realize that don't listen to what your friends

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Speaker 2: say about how they met, because it's going to be

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Speaker 2: filtered through how they feel about each other. Right now.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you raised that. That is such. That's

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Speaker 1: such a great insight, and I wish if everyone's listening

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Speaker 1: right now, please please please, like, let that deeply connect

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Speaker 1: with your heart and head, because I think that's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons we will make mistakes. We're either forcing

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Speaker 1: ourselves to look for the perfection in the moment, and

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Speaker 1: like you said, some of the best relationships start by

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Speaker 1: it's fine, it's okay, I'm not sure. And also to

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Speaker 1: not over amplify that first meeting. I think we put

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Speaker 1: so much pressure on the first date, the first kiss,

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Speaker 1: you know, the first time I'm being intimate with someone,

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Speaker 1: the first the first of everything is like such.

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Speaker 2: A so weighted, so weighted, right, yes, unfairly yes, yes.

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Speaker 2: And what happens is people will go on a date,

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Speaker 2: and so I see this in therapy all the time.

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Speaker 2: People will come in and they'll say, I went on

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Speaker 2: the date with this person, nice person. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I just didn't feel that intensity. I just didn't I

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Speaker 2: don't know, I didn't feel this romantic connection with this person.

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Speaker 2: And I'll say, how did you feel about yourself on

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Speaker 2: this date? I felt good, I felt really comfortable, I

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Speaker 2: felt like myself. Right. Did you have a good time?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Did you feel like this was a fun person to

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Speaker 2: be around?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Well why not go on a second date? Why not

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Speaker 2: spend another hour with this person just to see what

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Speaker 2: it feels like to sit with this person again. And

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Speaker 2: what happens is sometimes not always, Sometimes you sit with

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Speaker 2: this person enough and then all of a sudden you're like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: they're really cute. I didn't see that before, or they're

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Speaker 2: really funny. They were kind of nervous on the first

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Speaker 2: date because it's a first date. It's like a job interview, right,

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Speaker 2: So people are performing. It's a very performative action going

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Speaker 2: on a first date. But when people feel more comfortable

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Speaker 2: and they can be more themselves, you feel like you

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Speaker 2: can be more yourself. They feel like they can and

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Speaker 2: you see the real person and they can become very

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Speaker 2: attractive to you. So this doesn't always happen, but it

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Speaker 2: happens enough that I think that what happens is we

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Speaker 2: feel like there's this abundance that because of dating apps,

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Speaker 2: we feel like if I don't feel like this person

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Speaker 2: is fabulous a ten everything that I've imagined on that

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Speaker 2: first forty five minutes or an hour that I'm meeting

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Speaker 2: them in this weird coffee place, in this weird environment.

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Speaker 2: Because we're strangers, we're both nervous, we're both trying to

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Speaker 2: impress each other. We both have these fantasies that we're

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Speaker 2: bringing in the other person's letting down my fantasy. You know,

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Speaker 2: what a weird way to meet someone. And then they think, Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: there's ten other people on this app that I can

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Speaker 2: swipe on and they'll meet my fantasy. Except they probably

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Speaker 2: won't either, or they might. Here's the danger. They might

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Speaker 2: on that first date, but then they're locking into some

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Speaker 2: fantasy that you have. But then when you really get

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Speaker 2: to know them, you find out, oh, I don't really

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Speaker 2: connect with this person, or this person's kind of superficial,

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Speaker 2: or this person's great at first dates. Because people who

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Speaker 2: are great at first dates can be really charming. But

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Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that that's what you want in a partner.

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Speaker 2: You want someone who's real. You want someone who's authentic,

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Speaker 2: who's annuine, And maybe the person who's a great first

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Speaker 2: dater is not a great partner.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. I mean, Laurie, you just did this genius therapy

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Speaker 1: question thing there that I want people to notice. I

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Speaker 1: think you're so right that after a first day, the

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Speaker 1: number one thing we focus on is how did I

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Speaker 1: feel about them? And our friends will ask us what

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Speaker 1: did you think of them? And you just shifted that

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Speaker 1: question that you asked one of your patients, the question

432
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 1: being how did you feel about yourself? Yeah, And I

433
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 1: think that's so powerful because you're so right that if

434
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 1: you're only looking at the other person and making your

435
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: assumptions and judgments on whether they're interesting, whether they're exciting,

436
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 1: whether there's someone who can entertain you, rather than going

437
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 1: how did I feel about myself? And it was so interesting.

438
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,440
Speaker 1: I was just saying to one of my friends. I

439
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 1: was saying that when do you feel peaceful around someone?

440
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 1: And I was saying, peaceful around someone usually isn't exciting,

441
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: it's usually not exhilarating, but you feel listen to cart

442
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: when you're around them, they kind of relax your no

443
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 1: system a little bit. And so when you ask the

444
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: question how did I feel about myself? And you're like,

445
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: I felt natural, I felt comfortable. I actually felt really

446
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 1: good all of a sudden, like oh, I didn't feel butterflies,

447
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 1: and I wasn't constantly nervous and I wasn't trying to

448
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: impress them. So this is actually a much healthier space

449
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 1: to live in. So I love that reframe of after

450
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,199
Speaker 1: a first date, not asking yourself what did I think

451
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,719
Speaker 1: of them? Are they interesting? Are they the one? How

452
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,679
Speaker 1: did I feel about myself? I think that's a brilliant,

453
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: brilliant note.

454
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how we feel about ourselves often comes from

455
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: the person on that date is really listening to you

456
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 2: and is really interested. So the person who can entertain

457
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 2: you on a first date might be really fun. But

458
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 2: I don't think that you want an entertainer. I think

459
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 2: what you want is you want someone you can actually

460
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 2: have some kind of connection with, and someone who knows

461
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 2: how to listen, and someone who's genuinely curious about you

462
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 2: and not just trying to impress you is going to

463
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 2: make a much better long term partner.

464
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Jay Shatty and I'm throwed to announce

465
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,479
Speaker 1: my podcast tour. For the first time ever. You can

466
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 1: see my On Purpose podcast live and in person. Join

467
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 1: me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations

468
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: with surprise guests. It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert,

469
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 1: or a CEO or business leader. We'll dive into experiences

470
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 1: designed to inspire growth, spark learning, and build real connections.

471
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you there. Tickets are on

472
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 1: cell now. Head to Jayshetty dot me and get yours today.

473
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 1: I think, Laurie, we're uncovering something really interesting here. It's like,

474
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: I feel like we don't know what human connection is, right,

475
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 1: I feel like we don't know what human love is like,

476
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: like what we're getting to here, it's like because it

477
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: is so hard to define, I guess, but there's a

478
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: sense of we don't know what healthy connection communication looks

479
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 1: like because chances are we haven't seen it at home,

480
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: we haven't seen it around us, we haven't seen it

481
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: in the media. So there's a sense of not being

482
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: able to mirror or not being able to reflect something

483
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: that embodies that deep, profound experience of love. So when

484
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 1: you're saying you're not looking at someone who's giving you

485
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: the ability to feel listen heard seeing what is from

486
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: all of your experience and everything you've read. You've done

487
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: this for decades now, Like, what have you seen? Are

488
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: the core values of human connection that we should be

489
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: aspiring for in a healthy relationship? Can we even define those?

490
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: We forget that love is not some kind of airy feeling, right,

491
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 2: love is you know, people say that people in love

492
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: are actually like people on drugs. It's the same dopamine

493
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 2: reaction and so you're not really thinking straight. So that

494
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 2: might feel like infatuation. That feels really good, and yes,

495
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 2: that's a component of feeling really connected and feeling love.

496
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: But love in the day to day is a verb.

497
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 2: How can I be loved to another person? How is

498
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: someone being loving as a verb to me? And so

499
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 2: I remember this struck me so much when I had

500
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: a couple and the woman and the couple said to

501
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: her husband, you know what three words I really want

502
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: to hear and he immediately said, I love you. You

503
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: want to hear I love you more? And she said, no,

504
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 2: I know you love me. I want to hear I

505
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 2: understand you. And that to her was love right. I

506
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: know that you say you love me. I want you

507
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: to show me you love me because I want to

508
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: feel understood by you and I want to understand you.

509
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 2: And I think so much what we don't do in

510
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: a loving relationship is we don't take the time to

511
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: either understand ourselves and communicate that or understand the other person.

512
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 2: It really takes an act of love.

513
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: It's such a great point. And even hearing you say

514
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: that I like it resonates so strongly with how I

515
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: see love and how much I see the conflicts that

516
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: exist and relationships being because people love each other but

517
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: they don't understand each other.

518
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 2: They don't and they're not curious, right, so they feel like,

519
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 2: if you don't understand me, then you know you don't

520
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 2: love me. If you they do this, if you loved me,

521
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 2: you would X as opposed to let me tell you

522
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: how I'm feeling right now, let me explain this to you,

523
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: because the truth is, if they understood you, they would

524
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: do X, probably, but it's not if they love you.

525
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with if they love you,

526
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: they would do X.

527
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's so powerful, that's so true. It's resonating so

528
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: strongly with me too. And that idea of we think

529
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: that if I say I love you, that means I

530
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: understand you. Yes, But the person on the other side

531
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: is saying, no, I get that you love me, but

532
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: you're not understanding me. You're not hearing me, you're not

533
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: seeing me. And I often think that we think love

534
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: makes up for a lack of understanding, but love can't.

535
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: Love can't can't complete a lack of understanding. Love can't

536
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: complete the fact that you haven't really listened to what

537
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: the other person is saying, because love can often be

538
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: this overarching emotion as opposed to what you're saying, this

539
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: active verb that's being expressed. And so I think that's

540
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: a great takeaway for people. Is is someone actually trying

541
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: to understand you? And I think we have this intuitive

542
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: feeling that if someone completes our sentences on the first date,

543
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: or they like the same things we like, then they

544
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: must understand us. Right If we're talking about our favorite

545
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: foods and we both agree that Italian cuisine is our

546
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: favorite food, or we both agree that we love comedy

547
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: movies and we love we almost we feel understood. And

548
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: I feel like both people in that moment of feeling

549
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: understood stop trying to understand and be understood. Does that

550
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: make sense?

551
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: What you're talking about is having things in common which

552
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: is very different from what you're coming into the relationship with.

553
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: So you can have a lot of interest in common.

554
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: You might both like sushi and rollerblading and these kinds

555
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: of movies and these kinds of TV shows and this

556
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 2: kind of cuisine. Right, and you say we have so

557
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: much in common. We love the same music, we you know,

558
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: we read the same things. That's what you have in common.

559
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that you understand the person's operating instructions.

560
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is when you get

561
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: anything a new car, you know it comes with a

562
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 2: manual and it says like, this is how this car operates,

563
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: and it's different from your last car. So just because

564
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: it's a car doesn't mean it operates in the same way.

565
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: Like this button is going to be over here, and

566
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: if you want to control this, it's going to be

567
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: over here, and it doesn't like when you do this,

568
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: and it likes when you do this, right, That's what

569
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: the manual says. We need that for our people. We

570
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: need to know what is there, what are their operating instructions,

571
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: And we assume that because we have all this in common,

572
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: that that person is going to know my operating instructions

573
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: and I'm going to know that person's operating instructions. But

574
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: we have to share our operating instructions with the other person.

575
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: Just because you like to be when you want to

576
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: come to me with something and you just want to vent, right,

577
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: I actually want feedback. That doesn't mean that we have

578
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: the same way of wanting to be listened to. When

579
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: you are feeling sad, you do this when i'm feeling sad,

580
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 2: I need this. Those are different things. When I'm angry,

581
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: I need to talk about it right away. When you're angry,

582
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: you need to walk around the block. Oh that's really

583
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: good information. I didn't read your manual. Tell me more.

584
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: So we have to be really curious about tell me

585
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: you're operating instructions. And we learn that just by experiencing

586
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: the other person and seeing that while we have a

587
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: lot in common and we connect, they're actually separate and

588
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: apart from us, they're a different person. Yeah, and that's

589
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: so important. So how can we be loving? What is love?

590
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: Love is saying I'm taking the time to understand your

591
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: operating instructions.

592
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: That's so well, But and I think we struggle with

593
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: that so much because we don't have enough self awareness

594
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: of our our own operating instructions. And then we have

595
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: this warped view that love means you should be able

596
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: to understand and read that bit in between the lines,

597
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: and none of us read the operating instructions for our

598
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: devices today. So yeah, we're also not reading between the lines.

599
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: And the other person sitting there going, well, if you

600
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: love me, you'd know all of this. How can you

601
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: not know after ten years that I love celebrating my birthday.

602
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: R anniversaries are really important to me, and it's fascinating

603
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: to me that we don't want to help people help us.

604
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: Right, So what we do using the birthday example is

605
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: somebody will say, you know, to their partner, what would

606
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 2: you like to do for your birthday? And they say, oh,

607
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: it's no big deal, but they really actually want something,

608
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: and they think my partner should know that when I

609
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: say it's no big deal, don't worry about it. And

610
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: then the partner says, oh, we're just going to do

611
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 2: a quiet dinner when they wanted a big party. That

612
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: their partner doesn't get them at all. How did their

613
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: partner know that no big deal actually meant I love

614
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: big parties? How do you not notice after being together

615
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: for three years that I love being at big parties?

616
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: So you should have known that my no big deal

617
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: meant I love big parties. Yeah, but why can't we

618
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: just communicate our desires? Why does that take away from

619
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: the magic? We think if I have to explain it,

620
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: there's no chemistry between us. You should just know. But

621
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 2: we should be able to say, hey, I would love

622
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: a big party. I love celebrating in the company of

623
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: all of my people and all of my friends. What

624
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: a relief for your partner to know I can please

625
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: my partner and give my partner exactly what my partner wants,

626
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 2: because now I know, Yeah, that doesn't take away from

627
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: the chemistry or the magic or the connection between you.

628
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: That enhances the connection.

629
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree. A few years ago, me and

630
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: my wife, after never knowing what to do for each

631
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: other's birthdays and always getting it wrong, we set that

632
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: packed with each other where we're like, we're just going

633
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: to tell each other three to four months in advance

634
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: what we'd like to do for our birthdays. Her birthdays

635
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: in July. It just starts you in two day years ago,

636
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: and then my birthday is in September, and we're just like,

637
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: we're just going to tell each other what we want,

638
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: what kind of party we want, what we want. So

639
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: this year she was thinking about doing something. She was

640
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: like one day and then she's like, no, actually, I

641
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: just want to do nothing, and she's generally I over

642
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: the years, I always did extravagant things because I like

643
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: extravagant things, and realized I was giving her the birthday party.

644
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: I wanted yes, and she was giving me the birth

645
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: device she wanted, and so that's where we just started

646
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: telling each other. And so she said to me, she

647
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: was like, I just want to do something really small.

648
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: That's what we did. It was beautiful. And then she

649
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: was telling me what do you want? I was like,

650
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: I just want to someone to do something with just

651
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: me and you. I was like, whatever it is, as

652
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: long as it's just me and you, I'm open to it.

653
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: And I think it's become so much more fun being

654
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: able to not have to live in this anxiety and

655
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: anticipation of do they understand me? Have I dropped enough hints?

656
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: Do they get the magic? And then feeling disappointed or

657
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: even feeling like they got it all? But oh, it's

658
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: because I gave them all the notes anyway. And so

659
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: you're so right that we've removed the magic because we've

660
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: shared what we want, right.

661
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: And it's so funny what you said, this whole thing

662
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 2: about if I give them the notes, that somehow it's

663
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: not special anymore, as opposed to this person took the

664
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: time to understand exactly what I want and to make

665
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: my day the magical day that I want it to be.

666
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: That's the magic. This person cares enough to give you

667
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: exactly what you want, but we don't give them credit

668
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: for that. We actually give them demerits.

669
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and we give ourselves credit for yeah yeah, exactly.

670
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: Yeah no, And you're so right, Like I think it

671
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: comes with so many things that we think asking for

672
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: help or telling people what we actually need or having

673
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: a request is a weakness. We see it as a

674
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: sign of a weak relationship, when actually it's a sign

675
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: of strong self awareness and a strong relationship that you

676
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: have the ability to share your desires, your needs, your

677
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: interests and the other person has the ability to comprehend

678
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: and take action on them. That is actually a healthy,

679
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: long term relationship. And yeah, I hope that this conversation

680
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,959
Speaker 1: can encourage people if you're in a relationship, even if

681
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: you're starting out in one, These are great habits to

682
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: set early on rather than wasting three to five years

683
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: making mistakes, trying to figure it out, carrying that baggage

684
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: and then figuring it out right.

685
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: And the setting the early on is the really important part,

686
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: because relationships are like cement if you you know, be

687
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 2: in the beginning. Everyone's trying to be the ambassador of themselves,

688
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 2: so they think, oh, I don't want to ask for

689
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 2: too much, or I didn't really like that the person's

690
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 2: always late, but I'll deal with that later. But it

691
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 2: really frustrates you. And so then, you know, six months

692
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 2: a year into the relationship, you just blow up and

693
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: you say, how come you're always late? I don't like

694
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 2: it you're always late, and the person's like, this never

695
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: bothered you before. I don't understand. Okay, thank you for

696
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 2: telling me, but you're so upset about it at that point,

697
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: or the person doesn't call when they say they will,

698
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. It's really important because now the

699
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: cement is dried, and now you have to, you know,

700
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 2: get a jackhammer out there and bring up the sm

701
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: if you do it when the cement is wet, and

702
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: you say, you know, after the first couple times, you

703
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: know what, when you're late, I feel like you don't

704
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: prioritize us getting together at this time, or you don't

705
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 2: prioritize me. I would really appreciate it if you could

706
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 2: come on time. And now you get to see, as

707
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 2: the cement is drying, can this person respond to that right?

708
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: And that's really important to know because why do you

709
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: want to spend a long time with this person if

710
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 2: they're never going to be able to respond to it,

711
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 2: or why do you want to be frustrated for all

712
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: this time when you could have just told them early on.

713
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: And now this person is used to being late, they

714
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 2: don't know it's a problem. It's going to take a

715
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: while for them to reverse their pattern. Whereas if they

716
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: know in the beginning this is really important, they're going

717
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: to reverse their pattern or they're not, and that's good

718
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: information for you.

719
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: And totally, I feel like a lot of the reason

720
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: why we don't say something in the beginning or in

721
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: the early stages is either we want to give the

722
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: other person grace, we don't want to be disliked for

723
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: giving feedback, and we want to be liked. It can

724
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: be well intentioned of maybe the change, maybe they'll notice,

725
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: But actually, as you said, all we're doing is the

726
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 1: problems getting bigger and bigger and bigger for us. It's

727
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: becoming less and less big for that individual. And so

728
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: now the distance between you and that person when you

729
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: share that problem is so far and wide because they've

730
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: started to devalue being on time, because you don't seem

731
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: to care, and you've started overvalue being on time, and

732
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: so now you're at two opposite ends of the spectrum,

733
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: and now you can't hear each other because you're so

734
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: far away from each other. And I find that so

735
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: interesting that when you try to avoid problems and the

736
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: other person becomes more and more unaware, you just become

737
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 1: further apart, so that then when you raise the problem,

738
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: they can't hear you because you're so far away from

739
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:45,959
Speaker 1: each other.

740
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: Right, because then it becomes blame. So if at the

741
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: beginning you say, you know, when you come late, I

742
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 2: feel like you're not prioritizing me, that person might because

743
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 2: you said it calmly, that person might say, oh, well,

744
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 2: the reason is I really was prioritizing you. I know

745
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: you like to eat early, so I was trying to

746
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 2: leave work early for you. But I see that that's

747
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: not working. So what can we do? Because you like

748
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: to eat early, it's hard for me to leave work

749
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: at that time. So I agree to it. But then

750
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: I'm never on time, and then you've got a problem

751
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: you can work through together. Oh maybe we can just

752
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 2: meet half an hour later from now on, and now

753
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 2: you're both happy. Yeah, right, But if you do it later,

754
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 2: it's kind of like, well, you never leave work for me, Well,

755
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: I didn't know I was leaving early for you know,

756
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 2: it just becomes a fight.

757
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: Yeah. I wish what I'm hearing is and I think

758
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: about this all the time when I'm working with coaching clients,

759
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: we're talking to friends, or our community is just I

760
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: wish and hope for everyone listening that we could be

761
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: more curious about the context of people's decisions and choices

762
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: rather than just the choice or decision in isolation. So

763
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: we see someone being late as they're just late, rather

764
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 1: than the context, which you just so beautifully described, which

765
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: could be anything from I can't leave work early through

766
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: to whatever else it may be. And it's almost like

767
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: we see those as excuses rather than as context. Yes,

768
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 1: if we start recognizing that every person you're looking at

769
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: has a whole history of relationships and experiences and background,

770
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: and your job in order to be with someone is

771
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: to research that and to discover that and understand how

772
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: those points connect and that's connect and then all of

773
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: a sudden you're looking at a real human being who

774
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: has complexities and has layers as opposed to this idea

775
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: of they chose to be late because they disrespected me

776
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: when it's not really about you potentially, right.

777
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: You see it as they're lazy, they're disrespectful, and we

778
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: don't realize, we don't think we are. Context becomes the

779
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 2: whole story, you know. I always say we're unreliable narrators

780
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: because we're telling the story through our particular lens, but

781
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 2: we're not saying. I will say to people in therapy,

782
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: if the other person were here and they were telling

783
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 2: their version of this story, what would it be? And

784
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the story becomes so much more expansive.

785
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 2: There's the context, and that makes the person not a villain.

786
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: But oh, I feel I understand that, I can see,

787
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: I have compassion in fact, for why they made that decision,

788
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: or at least I understand why they made that decision.

789
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: A lot of what Laurie you're saying and I agree with,

790
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: and I also am sharing is this sense of taking accountability,

791
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: taking responsibility. But a lot of the time, a lot

792
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: of therapy speak on social media especially has made it

793
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 1: feel like we're always the victim and everyone else is

794
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: the problem. And so when we use words like gaslighting

795
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: and you know, boundary setting and whatever else, it may

796
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 1: be a lot of that language starts to make it

797
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 1: feel like, well, I'm perfect and the other person was

798
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: the issue. But you're actually you know, and I'm totally

799
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: with you on that. We're flipping that and going, well, no,

800
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: let's really look at how we can look at things

801
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: differently and how we can change how we behave walk

802
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: me through that balance and how you encourage people to

803
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: makes sense both because it's saying is as old as

804
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: it goes, like you know, it takes two to tango,

805
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: it takes too, like you know, it's always going to

806
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: take too and so but we try and make it

807
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: that it has to be one of the others. So

808
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 1: how do we balance that, reconcile that in a healthy way.

809
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it's great that people are

810
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: talking more about mental health on social media. What drives

811
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: me absolutely bananas is how people use words like we

812
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: were saying, boundaries, gaslighting, narcissism. If you looked at social media,

813
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 2: you'd think, like, eighty percent of the population or narcissists. Yes,

814
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: eighty percent of the population is being gas lit. Eighty

815
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: percent of the population has no one who will respect

816
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 2: their boundaries, and so these terms are being misused and

817
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: what happens is you lose the fact of what you're

818
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: talking about, which is that we're all doing a dance

819
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: in a relationship. There's a dance going on, and if

820
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 2: you change your dance steps, the other person either has

821
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 2: to change their dance steps too because they can't dance

822
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: with the otherwise, or they'll just get off the dance floor.

823
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 2: That's really good to know. So we don't think of

824
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: about what dance steps can I change? We think, oh,

825
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 2: they did this, that's it, and they're mislabeling people. Someone

826
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 2: is not a narcissist if they didn't see what your

827
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: need was, or they talk a lot about themselves, there's

828
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: a reason that that's happening. You need to be curious

829
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: about that. Narcissistic personality disorder is very rare, so not

830
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: everybody is a narcissist. Gaslighting. Gaslighting is not I have

831
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 2: a different opinion from you. Gaslighting is making someone feel

832
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: like they're crazy for feeling how they're feeling. Those are

833
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 2: very different things, so someone can feel differently about the

834
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 2: same experience. This happens with couples all the time. They're

835
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: not gaslighting each other. They have different feelings about the

836
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: same experience. This is not gaslighting, but people on social

837
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: media will say, well, I said that I felt this

838
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 2: about this experience. I'm being gas lit because my partner

839
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 2: doesn't agree with my feelings. You don't have to agree,

840
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: you don't have to have the same feelings. You can

841
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: just notice that the person has those feelings and that

842
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 2: you might have different feelings. That's okay. So what I

843
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 2: I think is important about this is that you know

844
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: the boundaries is a really great example of this. People say, well,

845
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 2: this person doesn't you know we have to set these

846
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: very rigid boundaries. Well, a boundary is something you set

847
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 2: with yourself. So a boundary is a request that you

848
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: make to somebody else. And this is why we see

849
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 2: so many people say on social media, I'm going to

850
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 2: cut this person off, and everyone says, great, cut them off.

851
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: They're terrible because they didn't respect your boundary. They can't

852
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: respect your boundaries. Did you give them an opportunity to

853
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: respect your boundaries? And did you respect your own boundary?

854
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 2: So an example might be let's say that your mother

855
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 2: is always asking about when you're going to be in

856
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 2: a relationship, right and are you dating anyone? What's happening

857
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 2: and that just ruins your time together. You can say,

858
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 2: you know what, Mom, I will let you know if

859
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 2: there's someone important in my life. But in the meantime,

860
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: it really makes it hard to be around you when

861
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 2: you're asking about something that you know is very stressful

862
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: for me. So if you ask about that, I'm going

863
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 2: to end the visitor. I'm going to end the phone

864
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: call very calm. Okay. So then next time you get

865
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: together with your mom, she's really good for the first

866
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 2: half hour, and then she's like, oh, and is there

867
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: anyone that you're dating? Mom? Remember, I don't have a

868
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: good time with you. When that comes up, I'm gonna leave.

869
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 2: But I really look forward to getting together with you

870
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: another time when we can talk about something else. Oh no,

871
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. No, Mom, I'm gonna leave.

872
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 2: But next time, right next time, your mom maybe she

873
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: remembers and it's like an hour later and she's like, oh,

874
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 2: but are you Oh sorry, sorry, sorry? Oh mom? Great,

875
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go now, right, And so you realize, like,

876
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: is this person able to respect your boundary? But the

877
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 2: main thing is you respected yours. You said I'm going

878
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 2: to leave if you ask that question, and then over time,

879
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 2: and you have to be consistent. If sometimes you say, oh,

880
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: it's okay, Mom, I understand no, because she's just gonna

881
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 2: keep doing it. So if you're consistent with yourself, you

882
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 2: have to keep your own boundary. This isn't her fault.

883
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,439
Speaker 2: This is about you. And if you are not going

884
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: to value your boundary enough to keep it every time,

885
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 2: that's on you. And so if you keep doing that

886
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 2: and your mom eventually probably will stop because she knows

887
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: that she wants to have a conversation with you or

888
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: have an outing with you, she'll probably stop asking you

889
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: about it. But if she doesn't, you've learned that she

890
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: cannot do that. So I'm going to keep with my

891
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 2: boundary and maybe I'm going to get together with her

892
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: less or I'm still going to leave every time she

893
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: brings that up, right, So it's about what you're going

894
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 2: to do. So it's not that you know nobody can

895
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: keep your boundaries. It's about I've said something that I

896
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: think is reasonable, and I'm going to see what the

897
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: other person is capable of. And so when people say

898
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to be I'm going to cut this person off, well,

899
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: are you really like you know or can you set

900
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 2: a boundary that works for you so that you can

901
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: have the good parts of the relationship and not the

902
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: parts that are problematic.

903
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: The way we have to think about it is that

904
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 1: people are probably going to keep breaking your boundaries. Are

905
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 1: you going to keep them in that situation? Right? That's

906
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: what's happening there. It's like a boundary set for you

907
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: to protect you from yourself, yes, from giving in to

908
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: a scenario in a situation would you call contra But

909
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: we think a boundary is almost an order or a

910
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 1: law that other people have to follow. And the truth

911
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: is you can't control them like they're going to act

912
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: how they're going to act, and you've got to set

913
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: a boundary where you know how to behave and you

914
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 1: know how to act one of them. I'm so glad

915
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: that you talked about your feelings around how therapy speakers

916
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: is healthy. It's important for people to have these conversations

917
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: about how certain words are being misused and bent online

918
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: because I do think that it creates exactly what you said,

919
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: a culture where we think that everyone we meet is

920
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: a narcissist because everyone has one percent of a narcissist

921
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: in them, or everyone we meet is a gas light,

922
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: and it starts to create a really unhealthy belief system

923
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: around who we're around. I watched this movie recently. I

924
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: didn't get great ratings on Rotten Tomorrows, but I saw

925
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 1: on a plane and I watched it out of intrigue.

926
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: It's called cat Person and it's based on this element

927
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,240
Speaker 1: of catfishing. It's a kind of like a satire parody

928
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: thriller of the challenges of modern dating about how so

929
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: much of those challenges are in our head, but how

930
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: they can transform into reality. And if anyone hasn't watched it,

931
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: it's a fun one time watch on a plane or

932
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: you know, one night with a friend or whatever it

933
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: may be. But what I appreciated about it is it

934
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 1: talked about this idea of how we kind of start

935
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: viewing people as more crazy or psychotic than they might

936
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: be because of these little clues that we've been trained

937
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: to look out for.

938
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 2: If that makes sense, Yes, and we do. We look

939
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: at other people as they're doing things that are very

940
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 2: human and we label that crazy. When we do it,

941
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: we say, oh, but there's a reason, and here's why

942
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 2: I'm not crazy. I had context, Like you said, Yeah,

943
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: we don't give them the context. Now, I'm not talking

944
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 2: about abusive behavior, of course, but I'm talking about the

945
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: things that we will literally say oh, that's unacceptable without saying,

946
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 2: wait a minute, why is this happening right now? All

947
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: of our behavior, by the way, is motivated by we

948
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 2: want to be loved. We really do, and sometimes we

949
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:01,879
Speaker 2: do it in a way that makes people not want

950
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 2: to love us, and we don't realize that we're pushing

951
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: people away with our behavior. But at the core, we

952
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 2: are doing it because we want to be liked. We

953
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: want to be loved. So is this person doing this

954
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: very strange thing because they're a horrible person or because

955
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: they're human like me, and at their core they're very vulnerable,

956
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 2: and they don't Their behavior doesn't reflect the wish the

957
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 2: wishes I want you to like me, or I want

958
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: to protect myself from being hurt. The behavior is not okay.

959
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 2: It's kind of like when you say to little kids,

960
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: it's okay to be angry, it's not okay to hit someone, right,

961
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: So what is that equivalent as an adult? It's okay

962
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: to feel the feeling, but what do we do with it?

963
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 2: And can we understand why that person is acting that way?

964
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: Can we understand the context?

965
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. One of the ways that that kind of

966
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: transpires into a bigger moment that a community had a

967
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: lot of questions around was what's the right amount of

968
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: pressure for someone to get married or proposed to you?

969
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: Because I think people get to this point where they

970
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: feel like we've invested someone's time, we're together, we're here,

971
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: but this person is just not proposing, they're not getting

972
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: they don't you know, they don't want to get married,

973
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: whatever it may be. And there it gets to this

974
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: point of this ultimatum of like, and now there's even

975
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: a TV show called The Ultimatum, which is all about

976
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: people dealing with that period in their life. So what

977
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 1: does someone do in that scenario where they feel there's

978
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: good commitment, we're getting somewhere, but the other person isn't

979
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: showing this excitement, enthusiasm, or even taking action on taking

980
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: this relationship to the next level.

981
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 2: This is like that birthday party thing where you feel like,

982
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: you know, the other person should just know, but we're

983
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: not communicating about it. The fact that people don't talk

984
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 2: about whether they want to get married before a proposal

985
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 2: happens is insane to me. It just said it makes

986
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: it makes no sense that it shouldn't be a total surprise.

987
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 2: You should know that you are both on the same page,

988
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 2: and you should know that the other person is definitely

989
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: going to say yes that you've talked about this. So

990
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: many people come to me for pre marital therapy where

991
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: they can talk about because they know they want to

992
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 2: get married and maybe they want to they're not even

993
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 2: having any problems. They just want to talk about their

994
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: families and how they're going to blend their families and

995
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 2: the in laws and the siblings and you know this

996
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 2: person and this personality. Or they want to talk about money,

997
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 2: or they want to talk about whether they want to

998
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: have kids and how many and how that might work,

999
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 2: and they want to talk about balancing their careers. They

1000
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 2: want to talk about sex and all the different things

1001
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: that might be hard to talk about before you get

1002
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 2: married that are so important and they might not have

1003
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: the answers right now, but they're learning how to talk

1004
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: about these challenging topics. And people say, oh, you're in

1005
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 2: therapy and you're not even married yet, something must be

1006
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: terribly wrong. It's like, no, something's terribly right. And so

1007
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: the fact that people are saying, like I really want

1008
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 2: this person to propose, but I don't understand why they're

1009
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 2: not and they don't feel like they can ask the

1010
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: person means you are not ready to marry that person

1011
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 2: if you don't feel like you can bring this up

1012
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 2: and say where are we We've been together for this

1013
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: amount of time. I'm feeling this. I'm wondering where you

1014
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: are with this and the person You'll get so much

1015
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 2: information from. I do want to marry you. I don't

1016
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 2: feel ready yet because of this, but I think I

1017
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 2: will feel ready in six months. Right, and then you

1018
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 2: have a choice. Do you want to wait for that

1019
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 2: or do you not want to wait for that?

1020
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: Or right?

1021
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: Or they might say, actually, I don't know how I

1022
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: feel about getting married. I don't know if I'm going

1023
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 2: to come around to that. You have a choice about

1024
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 2: what you want to do with that. I you know, Oh,

1025
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that. I thought I did want to

1026
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,919
Speaker 2: get married, but now I'm not so sure. Well, that's

1027
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 2: really important to know why what's happening between us, so

1028
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 2: that conversation is so important. Or do you just want

1029
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 2: to sit there scheming with your friends about how you

1030
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: can drop hints or how you can like analyze the

1031
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 2: behavior because the person did this, and what does that mean?

1032
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 2: That doesn't sound like the kind of marriage you want

1033
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: to be in. Don't you want to be in the

1034
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 2: kind of marriage where you can say to the person, Hey,

1035
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 2: this is what i'm desiring, this is what i'm wanting.

1036
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 2: Where are you with this? If? That's such a basic conversation.

1037
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: But that's so much healthier than an ultimatum, too, because

1038
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: I think we also get Again, it goes back to

1039
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier. You haven't given that

1040
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 1: regular check in, you haven't touched base. You don't really

1041
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: know what that person's belief system is around marriage or

1042
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: whatever else it may be. And all of a sudden

1043
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: it's built up for you as this big thing and

1044
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: now you're like, okay, well either you marry me or

1045
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: we're over. And then that's not comfortable for that person either,

1046
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: because now they feel they're forced into a choice, as

1047
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: opposed to a sense of how do you feel about

1048
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 1: this and what are your thoughts about this? Again, it

1049
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: comes back to we're so scared of appearing to be naggy. Yeah,

1050
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: we're so scared of appearing to be high maintenance. We're

1051
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,760
Speaker 1: so scared of appearing to be the one who's needy

1052
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: or desperate or whatever. Maybe, but we are feeling all

1053
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: of those things because we're not checking. How do we

1054
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: get over this hurdle? And by the way you experienced

1055
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: it in both like a lot of people don't break

1056
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: up with people for years because they don't want to

1057
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: be seen as the bad person. The amount of people

1058
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 1: I've spoken to who are like, oh, if I break

1059
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: up with her, if I break up with them, if

1060
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 1: I break up with him, oh my god, he's just

1061
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: going to hate me and I'm going to be the worst.

1062
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: And I just don't want to do that to them,

1063
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 1: and they're a nice person. But really always saying is

1064
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 1: I just don't want to I want to be liked. Yeah,

1065
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: in both scenarios, whether it's I don't want to nag

1066
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: them to marry me and propose, I don't want to

1067
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 1: break up with them because I don't want them to

1068
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: see me negatively. How do we get over that hurdle

1069
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: of recognizing that we're putting off the best decision for

1070
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: us or conversation because we want to be liked in

1071
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 1: a space that does that make sense? You're not trying

1072
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:43,439
Speaker 1: to say right.

1073
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: Right, well, it's like a parent, like if you've set

1074
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 2: a boundary with your child, they might not like you

1075
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 2: in that moment, but you're doing something loving. And so

1076
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 2: if you break up with someone that you know you

1077
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: don't want to be with, you're doing something loving. So

1078
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 2: I think that we need to reframe what we're actually doing.

1079
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 2: What you're doing by staying in a relationship and stringing

1080
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 2: someone along is actually cruel and it's wasting their time.

1081
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 2: So you're not being nice, you're not going to be liked.

1082
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 2: But I think the other thing we were talking about

1083
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 2: about bringing things up, it's not just about a proposal,

1084
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: it's even about lots of people will say, oh, you know,

1085
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 2: I know, I think by the person that I'm dating

1086
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 2: is also dating other people. I would like to not

1087
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 2: date other people, but I'm afraid that all appear too

1088
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 2: needy too early, right as opposed to just being honest

1089
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,320
Speaker 2: about what you want. They can say yes or no,

1090
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 2: but to be clear about look, we're dating. I don't

1091
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: feel comfortable with I can't really feel like I can

1092
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 2: get close to you if I know that you're dating

1093
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 2: other people at this point, because we're spending a lot

1094
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 2: of time together. So how do you feel about this?

1095
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 2: Are you ready to be in an exclusive relationship? Is

1096
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 2: that of interest to you? If they say no, wow, great,

1097
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 2: you've learned a lot. You can make a choice like

1098
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 2: I'm comfortable doing this for another month or I'm not,

1099
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 2: or you know, whatever it is. Or they can say, oh,

1100
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: I didn't know that that was important to you and

1101
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 2: I would like that too, let's do that, or I'm

1102
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 2: not ready to do that. So people do this in

1103
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: all kinds of situations. It's not just about marriage. They're

1104
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 2: so afraid to just bring their true selves into the

1105
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 2: kind of relationship where the whole game here is bringing

1106
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 2: your true self to it. So if you can't practice

1107
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 2: that at any point in the relationship, you're not ready

1108
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 2: to be together for the long term. You can't just say, oh,

1109
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 2: now that we're engaged, now I can bring my true self. Well,

1110
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 2: that's a recipe for a disaster, because now it's like

1111
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 2: you've misrepresented what you actually want to need in a relationship,

1112
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 2: and maybe the other person has misinterpreted what you want

1113
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 2: to need because you haven't expressed it.

1114
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: But we're so I'm frilly with you. I just find

1115
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 1: that we're so it's so hardwired in us, like we're

1116
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 1: so scared of rejection, we're so scared of being able

1117
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 1: to say this is how I feel, because we're like, oh,

1118
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: that person's just going to walk away from me, Like

1119
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: this is the thing that I'm going to lose this

1120
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: person over if I really tell them. And I think often, Laurie,

1121
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 1: you've probably seen that people don't know how to effectively

1122
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: weigh their emotions. So everything's a ten. So right, it's like, oh,

1123
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,439
Speaker 1: they were late, that's a ten. They're seeing other people,

1124
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 1: that's a ten. Like everything's a ten. And so I

1125
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,359
Speaker 1: think we're all so bad at being like, Okay, well

1126
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: this doesn't need to be raised because it's a two,

1127
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: and yet this does need to be raised because it

1128
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: is a nine and this is a minus five. Like

1129
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 1: I'm just being ridiculous here. And so I think because

1130
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: we weigh everything is a ten, then we don't know

1131
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: how to Does that make sense?

1132
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 2: It does? And I think that's because again, we bring

1133
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 2: so much of the relationship outside where people don't have

1134
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 2: the context. So, and that's what I was talking about earlier,

1135
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 2: is like you say, listen to what this person did,

1136
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:44,839
Speaker 2: or listen to what this person is doing, and your

1137
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 2: friends sees that you're upset about it, so they say, yeah,

1138
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 2: you should really bring that up. You don't have to

1139
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 2: bring up every thought that crosses your mind. That is

1140
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 2: not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what do

1141
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 2: you value what makes you uncomfortable to the point that

1142
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 2: this is something that you want to address. So I

1143
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,359
Speaker 2: think people either undervalue it, which is what we were

1144
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 2: talking about, and they don't bring it up because they're afraid, well,

1145
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 2: maybe it's not such a big deal, even though it

1146
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 2: is a big deal to you that this person is

1147
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 2: seeing other people. You don't feel safe, you don't feel comfortable.

1148
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 2: But then there are things that they overvalue, you know,

1149
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 2: like well this person does this or that, right. I

1150
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 2: hear this in therapy all the time, and I'm thinking, really,

1151
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 2: you know, like this is but I'm glad we're talking

1152
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,280
Speaker 2: about it. I'm glad they brought it up in therapy

1153
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 2: because now they can understand it better and now and

1154
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,320
Speaker 2: by the way, I think the other blind spot that

1155
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,359
Speaker 2: people have in dating is they think these are things

1156
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 2: that make the other person not perfect, and they don't realize, oh,

1157
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 2: there are things that the other person has to compromise

1158
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 2: on to be with me that I am not perfect either.

1159
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are so many things that I do

1160
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 2: that the other person is annoyed by or frustrated by.

1161
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 2: Or maybe if they could create, you know, a la

1162
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 2: carte the perfect person, they might not order that particular feat, sure,

1163
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 2: but I have it and they are with me anyway, right,

1164
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 2: And so we think we're going to change all these

1165
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 2: things about them without thinking about the other person is

1166
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 2: being so chill about some of my maybe less than

1167
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 2: perfect features. Absolutely so, how can we see the other

1168
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 2: person as human in these ways? So we don't have

1169
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 2: to kind of craft them, We don't have to shape

1170
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 2: them or mold them in a certain way. We just

1171
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 2: have to say, Okay, these are the big things and

1172
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,439
Speaker 2: the other little things. Remember, they're putting up with things

1173
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 2: about me too, and I'm very grateful for that.

1174
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. There's that famous statement that says we judge

1175
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: other people by their actions, not their intentions. Yes, and

1176
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 1: we judge ourselves by our intentions, not our actions. And

1177
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: when we're looking at someone else, we're blind to their intention.

1178
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: It's just what they said or what they did, Whereas

1179
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: when we look at ourselves, we can justify why we

1180
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: said it. And why we did that, And we have

1181
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: to start offering both sides that grace and compassion and empathy,

1182
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 1: because otherwise we're going to constantly feel that everything's against

1183
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: us and everyone's not for us.

1184
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: Right when I cancel on someone, I have a good,

1185
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: valid reason and I still care about them. When they

1186
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: cancel on me, they're disrespectful and they don't care about me.

1187
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. One of the biggest this is, I'm

1188
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: enjoying this conversation so much, Laurie, because I feel like

1189
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,919
Speaker 1: we're really getting to like the heart and the core

1190
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: of so much of what I feel is making dating

1191
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: so challenging right now. And you know, finding love is

1192
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: just such an important pillar of human happiness and connection

1193
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: that it breaks my heart when I see that we're

1194
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: tripping ourselves up. Yeah. And when I ask my community,

1195
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: what was one of the things that they think trips

1196
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: them up, it was this idea that they have now

1197
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: coined future tripping, this idea of planning the future in

1198
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: their head, visioning a future with this person. When things

1199
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: are looking okay or good in their head, they're you know,

1200
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 1: in the most extreme cases in Madame, their wedding day

1201
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 1: or what their kids might look like. But even in

1202
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: the immediate sense, like this could be it, this is amazing,

1203
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: this is going to last, and then all of a

1204
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: sudden they get a reality check with that person is

1205
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 1: not really mirroring that back. How do we stop ourselves

1206
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: from future tripping? Or is there a healthy way of

1207
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: future tripping with the person? Is there a collective collaborative

1208
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 1: future tripping? Like what does that look like?

1209
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 2: I think the future tripping is being in the present,

1210
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 2: And what I mean is what's happening now is what

1211
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 2: is going to look like in the future. So instead

1212
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 2: of imagining, oh, this person will change in this way,

1213
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 2: or we're going to have this kind of life, but

1214
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 2: you don't know if the other person wants that kind

1215
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: of life. If you're not talking about it now in

1216
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 2: the present, you don't know how does this person treat me?

1217
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: Now?

1218
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 2: What is it like when we're together? The biggest indicator

1219
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 2: would be we had a disagreement. How did we get

1220
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 2: through it? That's what your future is going to look like.

1221
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 2: We didn't agree on this, We were frustrated with each other,

1222
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 2: We had a difference of opinion. How did we repair

1223
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 2: that rupture? We talk a lot about rupture and repair.

1224
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 2: Everybody's going to have ruptures. You have it with your

1225
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 2: family members, with your friends, with your coworkers, with your parents,

1226
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 2: with your children, especially with your romantic partners, because we

1227
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 2: have this misguided notion that we shouldn't have a rupture

1228
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 2: with them because we're so in love and we see

1229
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 2: each other and we see eye to eye. But of

1230
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 2: course you're going to have ruptures. It's not so much

1231
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 2: whether you're going to have a rupture, it's what do

1232
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 2: you do with it and what does it look like.

1233
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 2: So if you have been dating for let's say six months,

1234
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 2: and you haven't had a rupture, you guys are not

1235
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 2: going deep enough. You guys don't know each other well enough.

1236
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 2: You're still on your best behavior. You have to be

1237
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 2: able to be yourselves. That's going to tell you what

1238
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 2: the future looks like. So stop the pretending. Be yourself,

1239
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,439
Speaker 2: Be what you want your future to look like, Act

1240
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 2: like you want your future to look like, See how

1241
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 2: the other person acts, and see what happens between the

1242
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 2: two of you, and a repair would look like something like, Oh,

1243
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 2: I didn't you know we're having a disagreement right now.

1244
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 2: Why don't we take fifteen minutes and let's come back

1245
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 2: when we're not so heated and let's talk about that.

1246
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 2: Or you know, you made a mistake, you know what

1247
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about this. You know, say you have

1248
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 2: an argument, you say, we're not going to talk for

1249
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 2: a few minutes, let's go cool off. Whatever. You call

1250
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:18,439
Speaker 2: them back and you say, you know what I thought

1251
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 2: about it. I was wrong and I'm so sorry. Here's

1252
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 2: what I did, and I wish I had done it

1253
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 2: this way. And that's great if your partner can do that,

1254
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 2: or if you can do that right, and then if

1255
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 2: your partner then can accept that without shaming you, if

1256
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 2: your partner can say, I really appreciate that, and I

1257
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 2: wish that I had reacted differently in this way, and

1258
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: how can I be more supportive in those moments. That's beautiful.

1259
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 2: That's your future, but you have to see it in

1260
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 2: the present. You can't imagine what the future is going

1261
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 2: to be. You have to actually live it in the

1262
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 2: present and say, oh, now, I know it's going to

1263
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 2: be just like it is right now.

1264
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you're saying, like if you are making

1265
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: plans in your head but comfortable to talk about those plans,

1266
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 1: then they only exist in your head like they aren't real.

1267
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: They aren't they aren't going there. I was going to.

1268
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to get your thoughts. I don't know if

1269
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: you watch any of these shows or whether you're exposed

1270
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 1: to them. And I know that your book's being turned

1271
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 1: into a scripted show. I believe, yes, yes, but when

1272
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: you look at like unscripted shows, like you look at

1273
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 1: shows like Love Island or Love is Blind, I mean

1274
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 1: Love Island right now is culturally like one of the

1275
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: most talked about shows in for young people for sure.

1276
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: How do you feel about those shows? And yes, they're entertaining,

1277
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 1: and yes we love to get into all the gossip

1278
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: and what's going on and everything. How is that affecting

1279
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 1: our views and our own relationships?

1280
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't actually seen those shows, but many of

1281
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 2: my therapy clients talk about them. I did just watch Bridgerton,

1282
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 2: which is a scripted show but very much like what

1283
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: I imagine those other shows to be. And I just

1284
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 2: think that, you know, people think that that's what it's

1285
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 2: supposed to be like. So many times people will come

1286
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 2: into therapy and they'll say, is this what it's supposed

1287
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 2: to feel like? Was it supposed to be like? And

1288
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 2: it's like, how does it feel to you? Oh, it

1289
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 2: feels really good, Well, then that's how it's supposed to be.

1290
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 2: How does it feel to you? I don't know, doesn't

1291
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 2: feel right? Well, then that's not how it's supposed to be.

1292
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 2: And that's really again coming back to can you tap

1293
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 2: into how do I feel around this person? Does it

1294
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 2: feel as you said, peaceful, calm? Do I feel safe?

1295
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 2: Do I feel comfortable? And it's not just that. It's

1296
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 2: not just that because you're gonna have friends that you

1297
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 2: feel that way around, But if you don't have that

1298
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 2: and you have the other things, that's not enough.

1299
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: That kind of brings me onto this next team that

1300
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: I want to dive into you deeply around is what

1301
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 1: is it about the five to seven year mark that

1302
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 1: ends in a divorce or a breakup?

1303
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 2: Like?

1304
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 1: Why is that the number that you see in the research?

1305
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: Why has that become such a prominent pivot point or

1306
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 1: end point? What have you seen over the years?

1307
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 2: What I see how happen around that time is several

1308
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 2: things are happening. There's a developmental change that happens throughout

1309
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 2: a marriage, and you both become different people and the

1310
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 2: relationship becomes different and you adapt together, and those are

1311
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 2: the strong marriages and the strong relationships.

1312
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 1: So that's what you're being called in to. Either you

1313
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: grow together or you grow.

1314
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 2: Up well, so different things happen. So, first of all,

1315
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 2: I think that sometimes people don't know each other well

1316
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:27,920
Speaker 2: before they get married. Then they're married and they're like

1317
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 2: a year in and they think, oh, this isn't exactly

1318
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 2: what I wanted, but I'm in it. I'm married, And

1319
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 2: then they say, okay, let's have a baby, right, because

1320
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 2: then that's the next step. And then now that's really hard.

1321
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 2: Parenting is really challenging, and if you and your partner

1322
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 2: are not already on solid ground, it's going to be

1323
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 2: extra challenging. So then you think, oh, my partner's the problem,

1324
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 2: when actually the relationship is the problem. So many times

1325
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 2: people come into couple's therapy and the first thing that

1326
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 2: they say is the problem is and let me tell

1327
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 2: you everything that's wrong with my partner. What I do

1328
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 2: with couples therapy is I say, before you come in,

1329
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 2: I want you each to come in and say, if

1330
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:08,919
Speaker 2: you were to be your best selves in this relationship,

1331
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 2: what would you need to change of yourself? Each of you?

1332
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 2: And they say it out loud, and that's all they're

1333
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 2: working on is changing that. They're not working on changing

1334
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 2: the other person. And when they do that, they say,

1335
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 2: oh wow, like that actually changes the relationship. The relationship

1336
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 2: is an entity. It's not just you know, there's two people.

1337
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 2: It's like there's three people happening. It's like there's you,

1338
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 2: there's you, and then there's the two of you. And

1339
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 2: so I think around five years either they realize I

1340
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 2: didn't know enough about this person, or I still have

1341
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 2: work to do, or other things have come into our lives.

1342
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 2: A parent got sick. It was really challenging. We didn't

1343
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 2: know how to deal with it. We had children, we

1344
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 2: didn't know how to deal with that. You know, we've

1345
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 2: had we've had difficulties, we've had loss, All kinds of

1346
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 2: things happen at that point.

1347
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to say to your point, I've

1348
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 1: had so many friends who had given the advice that

1349
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:04,160
Speaker 1: if your relationship's not working out, have a baby and

1350
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 1: it will save it. Terrible It's never made sense to me,

1351
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: because if your relationship's not working, now you have another

1352
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: relationship to take care of. Who is a new child,

1353
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 1: a new human being in the in the world, And

1354
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 1: so how are you you're going to give less attention

1355
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 1: to each other. You've already been given no attention. Now

1356
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 1: you have less attention to share with each other and

1357
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: more attention on this another being. I'm shocked that that

1358
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 1: advice still gets passed around and people still see it

1359
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: as a viable solution to a bad relationship. Yeah.

1360
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they think of it as like sunk costs, Like

1361
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 2: we've been married this long, so we can't we can't

1362
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 2: start over, We can't you know, what do we do

1363
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 2: to save this? Let's have a baby because it's a distraction.

1364
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 2: They think like, this will be great, it's exciting, it'll

1365
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 2: bring some vitality and energy and a liveness into the relationship,

1366
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 2: when if you don't already have that aliveness and that

1367
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 2: vitality between the two of you, the baby is not

1368
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 2: going to provide that for you. You're going to get

1369
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 2: a lot of outside attention like, oh that's so great,

1370
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 2: look at the baby. But in reality, you guys are

1371
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 2: going to have to be more of a team than

1372
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 2: you've ever been and problem solved more than you've ever

1373
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 2: had to, and figure out how to create connection under

1374
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 2: much more challenging circumstances. So it's the most counterintuitive advice.

1375
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 2: And I always tell people, if you are not solid,

1376
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 2: do not bring another person into this family.

1377
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like you already don't have problem solving skills,

1378
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,800
Speaker 1: you don't have collaboration skills, and now you're having to

1379
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 1: make choices on behalf of an entirely new human being

1380
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: where the stakes are so high and everything feels like

1381
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 1: it's personal of whether things are going well for the

1382
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 1: child or not.

1383
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 2: Well, what happened? Does the Pain Olympics start? And what

1384
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:44,400
Speaker 2: I mean is that you know I had the baby

1385
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 2: all day. I have it harder. You didn't do this. No,

1386
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:48,960
Speaker 2: I had it harder because I've been at work all

1387
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 2: day and now I have to take over this and

1388
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 2: you didn't have to work all day. Whatever it is.

1389
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 2: They vie for who has the most pain, and then

1390
01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:00,080
Speaker 2: they compete for it, and that becomes their relationship. You know, well,

1391
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 2: you owe me because I won the Pain Olympics today. No,

1392
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 2: you owe me because yesterday I won the Pain Olympics

1393
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 2: and I never got my reward, and that becomes their

1394
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 2: whole relationship.

1395
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the questions I asked people when they

1396
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 1: say to me like should we have kids now? Or

1397
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 1: is it the right time to have children? I often

1398
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 1: say that I think we're asking the wrong question, Like

1399
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 1: the question should be do I know how my life

1400
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 1: is going to change? And am I ready for that?

1401
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 1: And am I aware of that? And are we aware

1402
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: of how our life is going to change? To the

1403
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 1: point you're making of well, who is going to take

1404
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 1: the responsibility? And am I going to feel like you're

1405
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 1: not helping out? And what does that look like? Again,

1406
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 1: having a conversation about it seems like the practical thing

1407
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:43,680
Speaker 1: to do. Another relationship that seems to add more complexity

1408
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,840
Speaker 1: since the beginning of time is in laws. You mentioned

1409
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:48,600
Speaker 1: it earlier that you have clients that come in to

1410
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:50,559
Speaker 1: see you for that the amount of friends of going

1411
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: to recently, you have this challenge where they feel that

1412
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 1: the in laws are too involved, their in laws are

1413
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:59,720
Speaker 1: not involved, when their in laws are too involved, There too,

1414
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 1: can controlling of either or one of the partners, or

1415
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:08,480
Speaker 1: their expectations. They have certain demands on time and holidays

1416
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:10,719
Speaker 1: and where they're spent and all of these kinds of things.

1417
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:15,519
Speaker 1: What I've found to be the core pain again, going

1418
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 1: back to our earlier conversation, is people feel their partners'

1419
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: parents are too involved, too demanding, too hands on, but

1420
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 1: they feel their partner can't stand up to their parents

1421
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: and their partner doesn't understand how it affects them. That's

1422
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 1: kind of where I've seen the main pressure that people

1423
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 1: are carrying. How does someone deal with the fact that

1424
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 1: they feel their partner doesn't defend them or stand up

1425
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: for them in front of their partner's parents, and therefore

1426
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: they feel their partner doesn't understand what they're going through.

1427
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 2: I have gotten thousands of letters to my column and

1428
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:56,000
Speaker 2: to my podcast about in laws, and what I always

1429
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,719
Speaker 2: say is in law issues are couples issues. So people

1430
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 2: think it's about the mother in law the father in law.

1431
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:05,719
Speaker 2: It's about the two of you. And if your partner,

1432
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 2: whose parent that is, cannot talk to their parent on

1433
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 2: your behalf, that's a couple's issue. So the person will say, oh,

1434
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 2: it's really not that bad. But if your partner is saying,

1435
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:20,800
Speaker 2: I am really struggling with this and it's not your

1436
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 2: you know it's not their parent. You need to talk

1437
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:26,800
Speaker 2: to your own parent about this. You need to have

1438
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,760
Speaker 2: your partners back, and if you don't, your partner is

1439
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 2: going to feel that you are treating them the same

1440
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 2: way that their parent is. You might not be doing

1441
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 2: the same thing, but the fact that they don't have

1442
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 2: your support is going to pull you apart in this

1443
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:44,200
Speaker 2: marriage because your partner. It's not about taking sides, it's

1444
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 2: about prioritizing this couple's relationship and saying, listen, when you

1445
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 2: do this, it makes my wife feel like she's not

1446
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 2: a good parent or she's not a good wife. And

1447
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 2: you might have these values, mom, and I understand that,

1448
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:00,760
Speaker 2: but I don't want you saying the kinds of things.

1449
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 2: You can have. Whatever thoughts you have, please don't say

1450
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 2: them to me or to my wife, because I'm very

1451
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 2: happy with our relationship. And what you're really standing up

1452
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 2: for is the relationship. It's not just standing up for

1453
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 2: your partner, is standing up for we understanding each other.

1454
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 2: We can talk about these things with each other and

1455
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 2: we do not want that kind of interference.

1456
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:20,920
Speaker 1: What do you do when your partner doesn't have the

1457
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:25,800
Speaker 1: guts to do that, When they don't have the authority

1458
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 1: or the relationship with their own parents, which is constantly

1459
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: being they've been baby, they've been you know, the mummy's boy,

1460
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 1: or whatever it may be, and they don't really have

1461
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: the courage to stand up to their parents and say

1462
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 1: what you just said, which isn't rude, it's not mean,

1463
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 1: but in their head they're like, how could I ever

1464
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: defy my parents? Like what does that look like? Or

1465
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 1: or they're guilt tripped like by their parents, where it's

1466
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 1: like they're like, I can never do that to my mom,

1467
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:54,640
Speaker 1: like she's loved me since day one, Like you just

1468
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 1: turned up in my life two years ago, Like what

1469
01:11:57,200 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 1: do you do when your partner's feeling that way?

1470
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think you help your partner to understand

1471
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:04,560
Speaker 2: that this is a very loving thing for the relationship

1472
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 2: with the parent too. So you're not telling the parent

1473
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:10,519
Speaker 2: I don't want you in our lives. You're saying I

1474
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 2: want you in our lives. We both want you in

1475
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,680
Speaker 2: our lives, but we want you in our lives in

1476
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 2: a way that makes us feel like we're enjoying our

1477
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 2: time with you. And if it becomes this thing where

1478
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:24,760
Speaker 2: we're not enjoying our time with you and it becomes problematic,

1479
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,200
Speaker 2: we're going to be spending less time with you, and mom,

1480
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 2: I don't want that and my wife doesn't want that.

1481
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 2: We both want to spend time with you. We just

1482
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 2: want it to be enjoyable. So we're asking that you

1483
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:38,600
Speaker 2: not talk about this whatever the issue is, or you

1484
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 2: not do this, or you not tell my wife to

1485
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:43,320
Speaker 2: do this, or you're not criticized, because that makes it

1486
01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 2: not enjoyable, and then we're going to see you less.

1487
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,679
Speaker 2: And we love you so much that we feel comfortable

1488
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:50,760
Speaker 2: saying this to you. If we didn't love you and

1489
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:52,759
Speaker 2: we didn't care how much we saw you, we wouldn't

1490
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 2: be bringing this up. I'm bringing this up because I

1491
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 2: love you and I want to be able to see you.

1492
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 2: And I think when people when you set back in

1493
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:02,720
Speaker 2: a loving way, when you say I want to see

1494
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 2: more of you, I want to be able to continue

1495
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:07,719
Speaker 2: to see you. I'm not pushing you away. I'm pulling

1496
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:10,640
Speaker 2: you close. But the way to pull you close is

1497
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 2: to make sure that we have a good time together.

1498
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I find that sometimes it can be

1499
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 1: different in every relationship, but often this at least and

1500
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 1: the people I know, the pressure often falls on the

1501
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: man who feels like he's in between his mom and

1502
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 1: his wife that in that kind of a setup, or

1503
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 1: at least those are the ones that I'm aware of

1504
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 1: and I'm sure it has takes all sorts of forms,

1505
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:37,439
Speaker 1: but it's often quite a heavy pressure that I know

1506
01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 1: a lot of men feel. And they're like, I don't

1507
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 1: want to let my mom down and I don't want

1508
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 1: to let my wife down. And now I'm stuck in

1509
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:45,600
Speaker 1: between these two things, and it's almost like who do

1510
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 1: I choose?

1511
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 2: And I feel like I have to choose a side, right,

1512
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:51,240
Speaker 2: But you're not choosing, You're actually choosing to bring everyone together.

1513
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 2: You're saying, I want us all to be able to

1514
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 2: be together, and so what I'm doing is I'm making

1515
01:13:57,280 --> 01:13:59,639
Speaker 2: sure that we can spend more time together.

1516
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:02,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great advice, and I really hope that reframe

1517
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 1: is kind of, you know, permeates. One of the things

1518
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:07,840
Speaker 1: I imagine you see a lot in therapy is one

1519
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:10,240
Speaker 1: partner has forced the other partner to come there. Maybe

1520
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 1: in couples therapy, it's hard for two people to feel

1521
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 1: equally as excited. Maybe if they're premarrit or that may

1522
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 1: be more equal, but when it's reactive, it's definitely one

1523
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:20,760
Speaker 1: saying we need to go to therapy, and someone may

1524
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 1: feel forced. One thing I've found that a lot of

1525
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:24,880
Speaker 1: people say to me is Jair, I just can't get

1526
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 1: my partner to open up, Like, whether it's in therapy,

1527
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 1: whether it's with me, I'm asking them, I'm talking to them,

1528
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I just want to know what you feel.

1529
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:35,479
Speaker 1: Like even with the question you said earlier of like, hey,

1530
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:37,240
Speaker 1: I have a dream to get married. What's your take

1531
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 1: on it? And they'll be like, I don't know, or

1532
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 1: they'll they'll go quiet when it's like, hey, we need

1533
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 1: to go talk to your parents about this because they're

1534
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 1: getting really involved and they just go quiet. They don't

1535
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:49,639
Speaker 1: know what to say, and they constantly feel that these

1536
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:54,240
Speaker 1: their partner doesn't have the capacity to open up. And

1537
01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:56,560
Speaker 1: I find this especially with young couples, where they're just like,

1538
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 1: my partner doesn't have an emotional vocabulary, Like they don't

1539
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 1: have the ability. How have you encouraged people in those

1540
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 1: scenarios to be able to open up or help their

1541
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 1: partners open up or create a safe space when a

1542
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 1: lot of people don't have that skill and that ability

1543
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 1: to actually even know what they're feeling and thinking.

1544
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:17,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to create the space for that person

1545
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 2: to feel comfortable opening up. So often people who can't

1546
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:24,519
Speaker 2: open up or have a hard time with it. They

1547
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 2: were not given the space before, so when they opened up,

1548
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:30,640
Speaker 2: someone would say, oh, no, you don't feel that way, right.

1549
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:32,640
Speaker 2: So when they were growing up, they'd say, you know,

1550
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:35,720
Speaker 2: I'm upset about this, or I'm sad about this, and

1551
01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:37,800
Speaker 2: the parent would say, no, don't be sad, let's go

1552
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,880
Speaker 2: get ice cream. Right, So there was no space for

1553
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 2: the sadness. Or I'm really angry about this. Oh, you're overreacting.

1554
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 2: You're so sensitive, So they don't tell someone that they're

1555
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,640
Speaker 2: angry about something, or I'm really worried about this. Oh,

1556
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,360
Speaker 2: don't worry, It'll all work out. Or what do you

1557
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 2: mean you're worried about that? Why are you always so

1558
01:15:56,479 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 2: worried about everything? So they never felt like they had

1559
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 2: a space for their feelings to be received and held.

1560
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,920
Speaker 2: We talk about in therapy the concept of feeling felt.

1561
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:08,000
Speaker 2: What does it mean to feel felt? And I love

1562
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 2: that expression because I think that when you want someone

1563
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 2: to open up, they want to feel felt. They want

1564
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:15,880
Speaker 2: to know that you're going to receive whatever they have

1565
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 2: to offer in a compassionate way and in a way

1566
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:23,519
Speaker 2: that feels connecting. So when you tell someone tell me

1567
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 2: what you're feeling, open up that feels like so much

1568
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:30,360
Speaker 2: pressure as opposed to just you know, being with them.

1569
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:31,720
Speaker 1: So maybe you.

1570
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 2: Start with something like, hey, I'm feeling really this about this.

1571
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 2: You know, what was that like for you? And they

1572
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:42,960
Speaker 2: might say it was fine because they don't know did

1573
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:43,880
Speaker 2: you have a good time?

1574
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 1: You know?

1575
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:47,400
Speaker 2: Did it make you sad when this happened? It made

1576
01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 2: me sad? But maybe you didn't feel that way, you know,

1577
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 2: just just helping them to have the vocabulary. There's this

1578
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 2: thing called a feelings wheel, and a lot of people

1579
01:16:57,120 --> 01:17:00,240
Speaker 2: only learned like with the colors, the primary colors, right,

1580
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:03,800
Speaker 2: so red, yellow, blue, right, And then if you mix

1581
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 2: red and yellow you get orange and there's more nuance.

1582
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,840
Speaker 2: And if you put more yellow, it becomes more yellowy orange, right,

1583
01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:12,240
Speaker 2: And so people only know like happy, sad, mad, but

1584
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:16,519
Speaker 2: they don't know like I felt frustrated, I felt scared,

1585
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:20,160
Speaker 2: I felt vulnerable, I felt anxious. But where did you

1586
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 2: feel the anxiety? Well, I felt it in my belly,

1587
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 2: I felt it in my chest, right, So there's so

1588
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,760
Speaker 2: much nuance. And for people who don't open up, they

1589
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:30,840
Speaker 2: often only have those three primary emotions, and then they

1590
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:33,840
Speaker 2: don't really know how to describe what they're feeling, so

1591
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:36,200
Speaker 2: you can mirror that for them and model that when

1592
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 2: you talk about your feelings, Like I was really afraid

1593
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:43,479
Speaker 2: of that and I was really angry, but actually, underneath

1594
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:46,680
Speaker 2: the anger with my friend, I was feeling hurt and

1595
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:48,879
Speaker 2: I realized I was feeling really hurt by her behavior

1596
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,599
Speaker 2: and it seemed like I was angry, but I'm feeling

1597
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:55,000
Speaker 2: really neglected. And so, you know, did you ever feel

1598
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:58,479
Speaker 2: that way? Have you ever felt you know, whatever it is,

1599
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:00,679
Speaker 2: But it just like it just becomes part of the air.

1600
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:03,800
Speaker 2: It's not like, sit down, face me and tell me

1601
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 2: how you're feeling. Open up to me. That feels like

1602
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 2: so much pressure, but it just like it's in the air.

1603
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:10,760
Speaker 2: And they've never lived in that environment before, you have

1604
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:13,799
Speaker 2: to remember, So it's just this is a new planet

1605
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:16,439
Speaker 2: that they've landed on, and here's it's like a new

1606
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:18,719
Speaker 2: Let's say it's a new city and in this city,

1607
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:21,320
Speaker 2: we speak a different language and we speak in the

1608
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 2: language of emotion, and they're going to start to pick

1609
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:25,720
Speaker 2: up the language bit by bit, but they're not going

1610
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:27,599
Speaker 2: to be fluent right out the cause they don't say,

1611
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:31,320
Speaker 2: speak French to me. It's like, oh, here's this new language.

1612
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:32,680
Speaker 2: You'll pick up a few words here and there.

1613
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:37,440
Speaker 1: That's so good. That's such a great visual and analogy.

1614
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 1: Like if I turn up in a different city or

1615
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:41,600
Speaker 1: a different country and someone just expected me to know

1616
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 1: how to speak that language, I would feel so much pressure.

1617
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 1: And actually we've all experienced that. We're like, I don't

1618
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 1: even want to try and say a sentence yea, I

1619
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 1: feel I'm going to sound so stupid. It's that comfortability,

1620
01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:52,519
Speaker 1: and that could take a while. This is my last

1621
01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 1: question I want to ask you today, Laurie. What how

1622
01:18:55,720 --> 01:19:01,200
Speaker 1: long no abuse? Not some is extremely that? How long

1623
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:08,759
Speaker 1: can you tolerate disrespect, confusion and distance from your partner

1624
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 1: before you feel this is enough? I can't do it anymore.

1625
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 1: I feel like every relationship goes through phases and periods

1626
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:23,559
Speaker 1: of distance, of disconnect, of disagreements. It's normal, it's going

1627
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:26,439
Speaker 1: to happen across a long period of time. But when

1628
01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 1: does an individual say, you know what, I can't do

1629
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:32,240
Speaker 1: this anymore. I can't keep tolerating this. What have you

1630
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:35,600
Speaker 1: found that makes people feel strongly about leaning in that

1631
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,599
Speaker 1: direction versus I can I'm in it for some more. Yeah.

1632
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:40,760
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, there's a study that shows that

1633
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 2: if you think of your relationship like a bank account

1634
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 2: and you want to have lots of good will in there,

1635
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:50,519
Speaker 2: Let's say it's an account of good will, and you

1636
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:52,840
Speaker 2: don't want to take a lot of withdrawals. So when

1637
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:57,720
Speaker 2: we talk about disrespect, so you need five positive interactions

1638
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:01,360
Speaker 2: for every one negative interact, or you're going to be

1639
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:05,280
Speaker 2: operating in deficit spending and it won't work. But we're

1640
01:20:05,320 --> 01:20:08,599
Speaker 2: talking about maybe the confusion, or somebody had a bad

1641
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 2: moment but they repaired it. Those kinds of things. Disrespect

1642
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:17,599
Speaker 2: is so corrosive in a relationship. So if someone does

1643
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 2: it the first time, like the cement during you say,

1644
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:24,680
Speaker 2: hey that you don't tell them you were so disrespectful,

1645
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 2: that was so mean. You say, I felt really disrespected

1646
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:30,040
Speaker 2: by that. Can you tell me what you actually meant?

1647
01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 1: Right?

1648
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 2: And they may say, oh, I'm sorry I said it

1649
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:35,519
Speaker 2: that way. I should not have said it that way.

1650
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:39,639
Speaker 2: Here's what I meant and it came off completely different,

1651
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:42,479
Speaker 2: and I will make sure that doesn't happen anymore. That's

1652
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 2: the response you want, right, And here's what I was thinking,

1653
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:48,760
Speaker 2: and I need to work on that. If someone says

1654
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 2: that wasn't you know, if you said I felt disrespected,

1655
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:53,559
Speaker 2: and they said, well, it wasn't disrespectful or I didn't

1656
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:55,559
Speaker 2: intend for it to be. You say, okay, you didn't

1657
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:58,080
Speaker 2: intend for it to be, but it felt disrespectful to me,

1658
01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 2: and let me explain more about why. And the person

1659
01:21:00,720 --> 01:21:03,080
Speaker 2: still is like, well, I didn't mean it, okay, but

1660
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 2: here's how it landed on me. That person doesn't seem

1661
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 2: like they have a lot of flexibility. The number one

1662
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:12,680
Speaker 2: trait after emotional stability that predicts the success of two

1663
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 2: people having a good relationship is flexibility. You cannot have

1664
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:21,240
Speaker 2: a good relationship with neuroticism, rigidity, lack of self awareness.

1665
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 2: So if this person can't respond to you and they're

1666
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 2: still being disrespectful, I would not wait. The question is

1667
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:32,599
Speaker 2: are you being clear about what disrespect is, because again

1668
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:35,640
Speaker 2: then we get to you know, someone said something that

1669
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:40,280
Speaker 2: maybe was not disrespectful, but because of your history, you

1670
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:44,160
Speaker 2: hear something as being disrespectful. You know, they might have

1671
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 2: said like, oh, I don't know if that that job

1672
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:51,439
Speaker 2: is worthy of you, and you hear that is are

1673
01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:54,000
Speaker 2: you saying that like I have a bad job and

1674
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 2: you're saying no, I think your worth is higher than

1675
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 2: your job. Right, So that person was actually being very

1676
01:21:59,280 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 2: respectful of you and saying the opposite of what you thought.

1677
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:03,760
Speaker 2: So you have to really be clear about can I

1678
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:06,280
Speaker 2: hear this person clearly? But if this person is critical

1679
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 2: of you, and sometimes the way they frame it is, oh,

1680
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:12,880
Speaker 2: I was just kidding. You can't take a joke that

1681
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 2: is so abusive, so it's not funny. Criticism is not

1682
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 2: a funny way of making a joke. And if you

1683
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:23,760
Speaker 2: have to put someone down to be funny, then that's

1684
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:25,880
Speaker 2: probably not someone you want to be in a relationship with.

1685
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:29,240
Speaker 1: Laurie, thank you so much for coming and sharing your

1686
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 1: wealth of wisdom and depth of insight today with our community.

1687
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:34,559
Speaker 1: I want to thank everyone who's been listening and watching

1688
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:37,640
Speaker 1: for your amazing questions. Please keep sending them through so

1689
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:40,120
Speaker 1: that we can keep getting Lorrie back. I think you've

1690
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 1: helped identify so many root issues today. I feel like

1691
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 1: we've really got to a place of talking about some

1692
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:48,680
Speaker 1: of the deepest aspects of where we go wrong at

1693
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:50,920
Speaker 1: the same time as talking about a lot of the

1694
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 1: day to day challenges that we seem to hear about.

1695
01:22:53,120 --> 01:22:55,679
Speaker 1: And I really hope that everyone who's listening and watching,

1696
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:58,160
Speaker 1: I hope this helps you in your love life to

1697
01:22:58,280 --> 01:23:02,080
Speaker 1: find deeper connections, to find more meaningful relationships, and ultimately

1698
01:23:02,240 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: maintain a natural, healthy, truly nourishing relationship with a partner.

1699
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:12,559
Speaker 1: And wishing you all the best in your love life.

1700
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:14,280
Speaker 1: So thank you so much again, Laurie for being here.

1701
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and thank you so much for having me, And

1702
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:18,320
Speaker 2: thank you to your audience for submitting so many great questions.

1703
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:22,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks Larie. Hey everyone, if you love that conversation,

1704
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:26,080
Speaker 1: go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist,

1705
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:30,439
Speaker 1: Laurie Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people

1706
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:34,920
Speaker 1: ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak,

1707
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 1: and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space

1708
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:40,680
Speaker 1: right now, you won't want to miss this conversation.

1709
01:23:41,120 --> 01:23:45,400
Speaker 2: If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard

1710
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:49,040
Speaker 2: to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold

1711
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:51,840
Speaker 2: hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.