Speaker 1: Hello, everyone, In case you're listening to these episodes out
Speaker 1: of order, we gave a heads up in episode one
Speaker 1: that we have a kind of a grown up talk
Speaker 1: about ADHD in these two episodes, So we wanted to say,
Speaker 1: if you're a parent with a kid who has ADHD,
Speaker 1: maybe listen to it yourself first before you share it
Speaker 1: with them. On with the.
Speaker 2: Show, Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's
Speaker 1: Chuck and Jars here again and we're starting up part
Speaker 1: two of our double episode on ADHD.
Speaker 3: That's right, And if you remember in part one we
Speaker 3: discussed ADHD.
Speaker 2: Some people have it, some.
Speaker 3: People don't, and we're going to talk right now about
Speaker 3: how you can figure that out, and that's called diagnosis.
Speaker 3: Right now, where we are scientifically is that the biggest
Speaker 3: factor on whether or not you have ADHD or not
Speaker 3: is hereditary. If you have kids and you have ADHD
Speaker 3: as a parent, your kid has about a fifty percent
Speaker 3: chance of having it as well. And like we mentioned
Speaker 3: in the first part, a lot of adults from especially
Speaker 3: our generation Gen Xers, are now getting diagnosed in their
Speaker 3: thirties forties, fifties because they found out that their kid
Speaker 3: has ADHD and they're like, wow, little Chucky Junior looks
Speaker 3: a lot like big Chucky.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a symptom. I thought that was charming exactly.
Speaker 2: Cattle's a bug.
Speaker 1: And even if they don't recognize it in them, there's
Speaker 1: a one hundred percent chance that their spouse will be like,
Speaker 1: I really think you have this too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there are some other factors, right.
Speaker 1: Yes, there's issues during pregnancy, that's a big one, usually
Speaker 1: exposure to alcohol or tobacco, premature delivery, if you didn't
Speaker 1: weigh very much when you were born, if you were
Speaker 1: exposed to lead as a kid, if you had a
Speaker 1: brain injury as a kid. There's a lot of concern
Speaker 1: about some other stuff. I think you said at the
Speaker 1: very outset of part one. There isn't any research that
Speaker 1: suggests watching too much TV or living in a go
Speaker 1: go go world. There is some research that suggests that
Speaker 1: blue number one and Blue number two food dies may
Speaker 1: actually at least exacerbate ADHD symptoms, But for the most part,
Speaker 1: they think it's a combination of genetics, the environment you
Speaker 1: were raised in, and then possibly like actual environmental factors
Speaker 1: like being exposed to lead or your mom, you know,
Speaker 1: smoking when she was pregnant with you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just to kind of clear up the TV
Speaker 3: and the screen thing, watching TV or being on screens
Speaker 3: too much or too much TV quote unquote isn't going
Speaker 3: to help give you ADHD, but there is a connection there.
Speaker 3: If you are a kid with ADHD, the pool toward
Speaker 3: a screen is going to be way stronger than a
Speaker 3: kid who doesn't have it. That short attention span is
Speaker 3: gonna really crave like the flashy graphics that video games
Speaker 3: or cartoons can deliver you, it'll deliver that steady dose
Speaker 3: of dopamine. They've done studies, it was. I found one
Speaker 3: a large study of five year olds that compared tension
Speaker 3: span of kids who watched less than thirty minutes per
Speaker 3: day of TV with those who spent more than two
Speaker 3: hours in front of a TV, and of course we
Speaker 3: mean you know, screens basically.
Speaker 2: And pretty dramatic results.
Speaker 3: The kids who watched the most TV had almost an
Speaker 3: eight times more of a chance of meeting the ADHD
Speaker 3: diagnosis criteria, and it even outranked other things that cause
Speaker 3: attention problems like you know, lack of sleep or parents
Speaker 3: stress eutonomic stress stuff like that.
Speaker 2: So there's a link. It's not going to get you ADHD.
Speaker 3: But if you have a kid with ADHD, then you
Speaker 3: should probably just monitor screens even more. You know, you
Speaker 3: should be doing that anyway, but maybe even more so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because those sites are designed to release dopamine and
Speaker 1: train you to come back and do it again and
Speaker 1: again and again. And so kids with ADHD who don't
Speaker 1: normally have a flood of dopamine when they get it,
Speaker 1: they really learn to do that thing that gives them
Speaker 1: that dopamine, which again doesn't give you like a feel
Speaker 1: good rush, It just comes along with that and tells
Speaker 1: your brain this is a really important thing to do,
Speaker 1: so do it again and again and again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: It's also like the age of your kid is really
Speaker 3: important when you're trying to diagnose if you're pre preschool
Speaker 3: aged or younger or I guess that counts as all
Speaker 3: ages younger than preschool, but.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
Speaker 3: That that can be a lot tougher because there are
Speaker 3: other developmental delays that may look like ADHD that change
Speaker 3: and you may not be able to get a good
Speaker 3: diagnosis until they're you know, six, seven, eight, years old,
Speaker 3: and even when they're older, like you know, teenagers.
Speaker 2: You got to rule out a lot of stuff like.
Speaker 3: Learning disabilities, mood disorders, if you have like vision or
Speaker 3: hearing problems or a sleep disorder. A lot of that
Speaker 3: stuff can can fool you into thinking you have ADHD.
Speaker 2: So it can be tricky, it can be.
Speaker 1: So there's two lists. There's an inattentive list and then
Speaker 1: there's a hyperactive list. Yeah, and each one has I
Speaker 1: think nine like criteria things like you know, you lose
Speaker 1: things frequently, you appear to zone out while people are
Speaker 1: talking to you, stuff like that. And if you have
Speaker 1: six out of the nine on the inattentive list, you
Speaker 1: have inattentive type ADHD. If you have six out of
Speaker 1: nine on the hyperactive list, you have hyperactive type ADHD.
Speaker 1: And if you're really running up the numbers and you've
Speaker 1: got six of nine on inattentive and six of nine
Speaker 1: on hyperactive, you've got the combined version of ADHD. Adults,
Speaker 1: it's the same thing, although the criterias adjusted a little bit.
Speaker 1: For you know, runs around rambunctiously in class. You don't
Speaker 1: do that, but say you feel restless at it during
Speaker 1: meetings like it's really hard to sit still.
Speaker 2: You may be mentally doing that exactly.
Speaker 3: I would love to jump up and spin in a circle,
Speaker 3: right right, But a kid will actually do that. Where's
Speaker 3: the adult in the meeting will just struggle through that exactly.
Speaker 1: So the criteria is essentially the same, it's just kind
Speaker 1: of adjusted for adults, and then for adults it's five
Speaker 1: of nine yeah, for either lists. And then also with kids.
Speaker 1: When you're diagnosing kids, you look at their educational records,
Speaker 1: you talk to their parents, you talk to the guidance counselors.
Speaker 1: You get as much information as you possibly can to
Speaker 1: properly diagnose somebody with ADHD, because there's not one like
Speaker 1: here's our ADHD test, whether it's a blood test or
Speaker 1: a written test. You're basically pulling all of these disparate
Speaker 1: info together to put together like, Okay, this kid has
Speaker 1: ADHD and it's this kind Yeah.
Speaker 3: And that's why you know, parent teacher conferences are super valuable.
Speaker 2: I think when you first start to have to do
Speaker 2: that stuff.
Speaker 3: You're just like, oh God, kill me, I gotta seriously, like,
Speaker 3: because your experience is from when you're a kid, Like
Speaker 3: what a waste of time.
Speaker 2: But it's not at all.
Speaker 3: When you go in there as a parent, you know
Speaker 3: how your kid is at home. You don't know how
Speaker 3: they are at school because you don't have a little
Speaker 3: camera in their classroom where you can just sit around
Speaker 3: and watch what they're like.
Speaker 2: So rich parents do, right, Yeah, maybe so, but.
Speaker 3: You can really glean Like I think when you have
Speaker 3: challenges with a kid at home as a parent, you're
Speaker 3: dying to know if it's just you or if it's
Speaker 3: just the way it is at home. In other words,
Speaker 3: obviously not just the parent's fault, but you're wondering. So
Speaker 3: you're you're like when we get in there with Ruby's teachers,
Speaker 3: we're always just like, so, what's going on?
Speaker 2: What was she like? Does she have trouble with this
Speaker 2: or that?
Speaker 3: And sometimes it's like, yeah, she has the same trouble
Speaker 3: with this or that at home, And sometimes it's like no,
Speaker 3: it's not at all at school.
Speaker 2: And so it's really super enlightening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is super enlightening. Does it make you feel
Speaker 1: better or is it more just like it just answers
Speaker 1: the question that you have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just I think you know, knowledge is power, So
Speaker 3: just knowing that stuff that.
Speaker 2: Dude, we should start doing that with you and Jerry.
Speaker 2: They needed to be adult versions of parent teacher conferences.
Speaker 1: Oh that's a great idea, you know, I would be
Speaker 1: so anxious.
Speaker 2: Oh no, it'd be good. We do it over drinks.
Speaker 1: Okay. One other thing, you can find a lot of
Speaker 1: really great accurate diagnostic tests on sites like TikTok, which
Speaker 1: have lots of misspelled words in the title. So those
Speaker 1: are always really great to test whether you have ADHD
Speaker 1: or not.
Speaker 3: Be aware of that. I mean, social media stuff can help.
Speaker 3: There's lots some good resources. But what was that study?
Speaker 3: Like half of that stuff on TikTok was just wrong?
Speaker 1: Yeah, if I think fifty two yeah.
Speaker 2: When it came to this, yeah, more than half.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the big questions that we're still
Speaker 1: answering today, and if you haven't picked up that we
Speaker 1: don't have a full grasp of ADHD in any way,
Speaker 1: shape or form yet. That's correct. But one of the
Speaker 1: factors that we're trying to figure out is the prevalence
Speaker 1: of ADHD among kids and among adults, and it's kind
Speaker 1: of all over the map. It does seem like we're
Speaker 1: starting to kind of zero in a little bit. We're
Speaker 1: figuring out like the criteria to really like to really
Speaker 1: diagnose ADHD, and it seems like the numbers are starting
Speaker 1: to get a little smaller as time goes on and
Speaker 1: we get a little better with recognizing ADHD.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I know
Speaker 3: that you found some other numbers, but we'll just go
Speaker 3: through them and you can just say.
Speaker 2: If I'm wrong.
Speaker 3: Between ages of three and seventeen, so school age kids
Speaker 3: in the US United States of America, around ten percent
Speaker 3: have been diagnosed with ADHD. That number does get bigger
Speaker 3: with age because a lot of times you won't get
Speaker 3: tested until a little later, and some you know, diagnostic
Speaker 3: testing requires money, and sometimes a lot of money.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can do.
Speaker 3: Like a just a sort of a psychiatric evaluation maybe
Speaker 3: if your kids go into a therapist or something, and
Speaker 3: they may just look at criteria and ask a few questions.
Speaker 2: But if you want like.
Speaker 3: A real deal diagnostic diagnostic evaluation, like those aren't cheap.
Speaker 3: And that sucks because, like these numbers are kids who
Speaker 3: have been diagnosed because they were able to be diagnosed.
Speaker 3: So I'm sure there are a lot of situations where
Speaker 3: that's not possible.
Speaker 1: There's also a shortage of psychiatrists in the United States,
Speaker 1: so it's often there's a long wait list to even
Speaker 1: be seen from that psychiatrist, so you have to pay
Speaker 1: a lot of money too. Not all psychiatrists specialize in ADHD,
Speaker 1: so you really need to find from an even like
Speaker 1: smaller pool to choose from of psychiatrists. And then also
Speaker 1: once they diagnose you that the outlay of money is
Speaker 1: not over there, like you have to keep seeing them
Speaker 1: and they charge you every time for that. And psychiatrists
Speaker 1: are medical doctors, so their fees are not on the
Speaker 1: par or on the order of a psychologist or a therapist.
Speaker 1: They're four or five times more on average. Probably I'm
Speaker 1: pulling that out of thin air, but it's very clear
Speaker 1: that you're going to pay more for your psychiatrists than
Speaker 1: you would for a therapist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: Generally still boys are more likely to get that diagnosis
Speaker 3: than girls, about thirteen percent to six percent. There's also
Speaker 3: variations by race. I believe the highest percentage Black kids
Speaker 3: are at twelve percent, ten percent for White kids, eight
Speaker 3: percent for Hispanic kids, and three percent for Asian children,
Speaker 3: which is just super interest.
Speaker 1: It is interesting, for sure, and there's got to be
Speaker 1: some clue in there somewhere like, Yeah, that seems like
Speaker 1: there's that's weird that there's a difference because I think
Speaker 1: all of those numbers were for kids in the United States.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: I think globally they've come up within a twenty seventeen
Speaker 1: study across the world that five almost five point three
Speaker 1: percent of kids have ADHD. And there's a there's a
Speaker 1: question like, Okay, is this over diagnosed because I said
Speaker 1: that the prevalence rate seem to be kind of getting
Speaker 1: a little smaller as we zero in better and better.
Speaker 1: But the diagnostic or the rates of diagnosis have really
Speaker 1: picked up where they really did at the beginning of
Speaker 1: the twenty first century. Between two thousand and five and
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, diagnoses of kids with ADHD doubled, doubled. That's crazy.
Speaker 1: That's a huge increase doubled. It's almost like one hundred
Speaker 1: percent more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, there's just no scientific consensus right
Speaker 3: now on whether it's an over diagnosis or whether it's
Speaker 3: just we know more now and there's less stigma. There's
Speaker 3: more kids getting tested now there. You know, the criteria
Speaker 3: changed in twenty thirteen from the DSM four to the
Speaker 3: d S m five as far as that threshold, So
Speaker 3: all of those things probably factor in.
Speaker 2: To the doubling.
Speaker 1: I would think, Yeah, one thing though, if you are
Speaker 1: taking your kid into be tested, make sure that it's
Speaker 1: since they kind of evaluate the kid against the expectations
Speaker 1: of their grade level. If they're young for their grade, Yep,
Speaker 1: that needs to be taken into account because they can
Speaker 1: easily be misdiagnosed because they're actually not at that grade
Speaker 1: level yet, because they're not of that age quite yet,
Speaker 1: even though they're in that grade.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and with COVID kids, you know, potentially missing out
Speaker 3: on depending on what happened where you were, on a
Speaker 3: lot of valuable school. So yeah, it's important to look
Speaker 3: at because because Ruby is young for her grade, so
Speaker 3: in some cases she's like eight or nine months younger
Speaker 3: than some of her classmates. And then when you throw
Speaker 3: even though she did COVID kindergarten, which was a real boon,
Speaker 3: they did their best, they it wasn't like regular school. Still,
Speaker 3: so teachers and educators are having to sort and parents
Speaker 3: are having to sort through all of that.
Speaker 2: Still chuck.
Speaker 1: Just to kind of give a hat tip to some
Speaker 1: of our listeners in other countries, I saw that the
Speaker 1: NHS says in the UK five percent of kids have ADHD.
Speaker 1: In Australia they estimate six to ten percent of kids
Speaker 1: have ADHD, Canada rich five to seven percent.
Speaker 2: Not bad eh.
Speaker 1: And then our friends in Germany can expect a percentage
Speaker 1: of four point three three for the number or for
Speaker 1: the percentage of kids that have ADHD in that country.
Speaker 2: Funderbar.
Speaker 1: So what about adults, because as we now realize, adults
Speaker 1: have ADHD too, or they probably had it in childhood
Speaker 1: and it was just undiagnosed and they just didn't get
Speaker 1: diagnosed until later in life. That's typically what happens.
Speaker 3: Well, my friends, let's take a break and find out
Speaker 3: those results right after this.
Speaker 4: Definitely should.
Speaker 1: Childhood each other?
Speaker 4: Y s K. Lately I've been learning some stuff about
Speaker 4: insomnia or aluminia. How about the one on border like
Speaker 4: disorder that are nder border that one before, but it
Speaker 4: was so nice I learned this.
Speaker 5: Why everybody listen, all right?
Speaker 3: What a cliffhanger that was our adult listeners on the
Speaker 3: edges of their collective seat seats seat collective seat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, collective, yeah, because it's collective, collective soul.
Speaker 2: Collective soul. That's a good one.
Speaker 3: The rate of the condition into adulthood is all over
Speaker 3: the map. Some you might look at one thing that
Speaker 3: says about five percent, because you know, that's kind of
Speaker 3: what it is for kids, ish, and then you might
Speaker 3: read something else that said, now like seventy five percent
Speaker 3: adults have it. It's really really startling when you start
Speaker 3: looking into this as an adult. There was a study
Speaker 3: from twenty twenty one that found that it can fluctuate
Speaker 3: over time, and you know, it's kind of what I
Speaker 3: was talking about being on a spectrum. But about nine
Speaker 3: percent of those diagnosed as kids, they said, had quote
Speaker 3: unquot fully recovered in young adulthood. So I don't know
Speaker 3: if what that means though that that like our systems
Speaker 3: in place such that they've learned to manage it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the weird thing is there's no known cure
Speaker 1: for ADHD. All of the stuff that we use for
Speaker 1: is just managing it. But I think one of the
Speaker 1: reasons also that they were like it's just a childhood
Speaker 1: disorder that you outgrow is because some people actually do so.
Speaker 3: You actually can way, so that maybe the nine percent
Speaker 3: or part of that nine percent.
Speaker 1: I guess, But to pull one of your old old
Speaker 1: school wards and it seems shinky to me, like I
Speaker 1: don't understand how. Yeah, I don't understand how you could
Speaker 1: outgrow something that arises from your brain being literally different
Speaker 1: than other people's brains. Yeah, I don't get it. But
Speaker 1: maybe we just don't don't understand it quite yet. But
Speaker 1: it is true. I'm not one hundred percent sure, but
Speaker 1: for the most part, it does seem like if you
Speaker 1: have ADHD as a kid, you have it as an
Speaker 1: adult as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you're in a adult with ADHD, you're
Speaker 3: probably seeing it play out with organization and focus, you
Speaker 3: know a lot of times with your job, but in
Speaker 3: just in your life as well, because it's always there.
Speaker 3: You might have some pretty severe mood swings. You might
Speaker 3: be a procrastinator a lot of times, you're misdiagnosed because
Speaker 3: it might make you really anxious. So there's like, now
Speaker 3: you have anxiety or it might really bum you out
Speaker 3: with these mood swings, and they might say, oh, you're
Speaker 3: just depressed. All of that could just be ADHD or
Speaker 3: a kill morbidity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll talk about cole morbidities in a second.
Speaker 1: I got it. But with adults, you know, again, the
Speaker 1: adults don't get up in meetings and run around the
Speaker 1: table and they're like, just go ahead, I'm listening, you know.
Speaker 1: Instead great, they're just going to sit there and just
Speaker 1: you know, use all of their energy to not do that,
Speaker 1: and then also to try to focus on what's being said.
Speaker 1: And then girls with ADHD, Chuck, tend to fall through
Speaker 1: the cracks much more frequently for a couple of reasons,
Speaker 1: but the main one that I saw is that girls
Speaker 1: are so expected to be like demure and quiet and
Speaker 1: self possessed that girls learn to mask their symptoms earlier
Speaker 1: than boys do, who can get away with being more
Speaker 1: rambunctious than girls can, so it goes undetected. And then
Speaker 1: finally when they grow up and have a family, there's
Speaker 1: like I can't there's too many plates, I can't do this.
Speaker 1: I'm just exhausted and I'm not doing any of this
Speaker 1: the way that I'm supposed to be. And they'll usually
Speaker 1: get diagnosed with depression and then anxiety or something like that,
Speaker 1: but if they find the right doctor, they'll be properly
Speaker 1: diagnosed as ADHD.
Speaker 2: For sure.
Speaker 3: You mentioned comorbidities. Autism is a very interesting one. Thirty
Speaker 3: to eighty percent of people with autism spectrum disorder are
Speaker 3: also diagnosed with ADHD. In about twenty to fifty percent
Speaker 3: of people with ADHD also have autism spectrum disorder.
Speaker 1: And you're just like, why aren't they the same percentages?
Speaker 1: But it turns out that ADHD is actually more common
Speaker 1: than autism, so that, yeah, is solved.
Speaker 2: For sure, and there's a lot of overlap there.
Speaker 3: I think before twenty thirteen with the updated criteria in
Speaker 3: the DSM five, they thought that was like a mutually
Speaker 3: exclusive thing, and some people this is much the minority
Speaker 3: for sure, but there are some researchers that do think
Speaker 3: it's just sort of a single condition manifesting in a
Speaker 3: couple of different ways. But most researchers don't think that.
Speaker 3: They think it's like, you know, two separate things that
Speaker 3: live alongside one another a lot of times.
Speaker 1: Right, And Chuck, I just I just realized, I don't
Speaker 1: know if we've shouted out Livia this whole time yet
Speaker 1: for helping us out with this one. But she did
Speaker 1: a great job.
Speaker 2: She did a great job. And before I forget the other.
Speaker 3: Thing, as far as ADHD and autism spectrum disorder is,
Speaker 3: you're more likely to just do better if you have
Speaker 3: one or the other than if you have both. That
Speaker 3: may feel intuitive, but I think it was you know,
Speaker 3: Bear saying.
Speaker 1: Did I interrupt and interject that Livia thing.
Speaker 2: No, it's fine.
Speaker 1: Depression is another one, Chuck. I think kids with are
Speaker 1: people with ADHD are five times likelier to have depression
Speaker 1: than neurotypical peers, and they're not exactly sure why. A
Speaker 1: lot of people are like, well, it's obvious. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: it can be a really hard life to have ADHD,
Speaker 1: especially when it's undiagnosed and untreated, so of course people
Speaker 1: have depression. Other people are like, no, we're talking about
Speaker 1: actually like clinical, like brain based depression. It's possible that
Speaker 1: there's actually they share similar roots in the structure of
Speaker 1: the brain, and that might account for it that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of overlap physically between depression and ADHD.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: And about forty percent of kids, and I think we
Speaker 3: touched on this a little bit in Part one, also
Speaker 3: have anxiety, which just makes it all tougher to deal
Speaker 3: with because it kind of feeds on itself. Thirty to
Speaker 3: fifty percent of kids with ADHD fit the criteria for
Speaker 3: a couple of other conditions, one called oppositional defiant disorder
Speaker 3: and conduct disorder, which we should maybe cover.
Speaker 2: We could probably cover both of those in one episode
Speaker 2: at some.
Speaker 1: Point, we should. Man One of the most heartbreaking things
Speaker 1: I've ever seen in my life was on a plane
Speaker 1: and this kid was just kicking the back of my
Speaker 1: chair and on stop hard. And I turned around to you, like,
Speaker 1: what the heck's going on?
Speaker 2: You said, don't Josh, no, right, And.
Speaker 1: The parents were there with them, and they just gave
Speaker 1: me a look like what do you want us to do?
Speaker 1: We can't do anything. Yeah, And I've never seen two
Speaker 1: people look more tired and more defeated in my life.
Speaker 1: And their kid was probably only three or four, and
Speaker 1: it was just like, like I still today, I just
Speaker 1: feel so bad for those people because that's your kid,
Speaker 1: and like there's not a lot of understanding or treatment
Speaker 1: with that, and certainly not out in the general public,
Speaker 1: who turns around like you know, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Why is your kid doing that?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And in the old days, like you would tie your
Speaker 3: kid to a plane seat or something a barbaric like.
Speaker 1: That, yeah, which I'm sure helps a lot.
Speaker 2: All right, So.
Speaker 3: If you don't have ADHD, like me, It helps you
Speaker 3: grow older because you do get a little wiser and
Speaker 3: you do gain empathy, hopefully at least I have. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so it's hard to put yourself in someone's shoes until
Speaker 3: you are close to someone with ADHD and then it,
Speaker 3: like I said, it really benefit it's everyone you can
Speaker 3: if you can lead with empathy and understanding, like in
Speaker 3: your case with that kid even and that's coming from
Speaker 3: someone with ad ADHD recognizing maybe this behavior and a kid.
Speaker 3: But it can be hard if you don't have it
Speaker 3: to understand this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So people like low empathy generally with people walking
Speaker 1: around who know about autism or probably like yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's that has to do with autism. Turns out it's
Speaker 1: a huge symptom with ADHD too, and probably the exact
Speaker 1: same stuff applies to people with autism. But with ADHD,
Speaker 1: it's not that you don't care, you couldn't care less
Speaker 1: or whatever. You do care. You just either lack the
Speaker 1: ability to, like you said, put yourself in that person's situation,
Speaker 1: so your empathy can be triggered, or you lack emotional empathy,
Speaker 1: which is where you're like, oh man, that's terrible that
Speaker 1: that happened to you, but I'm not feeling empathy, Like
Speaker 1: I don't feel it. That's the difference. They're not sure
Speaker 1: how many people with ADHD have low empathy and exactly
Speaker 1: how it works, but it is a huge problem because again,
Speaker 1: like they're if you can't if you can't empathize with people,
Speaker 1: that's a basic human thing, and that will really cut
Speaker 1: down on the number of connections you have with people.
Speaker 1: Because if somebody's telling you something and they've just you know,
Speaker 1: inserted that pop like the end of it, and like
Speaker 1: this is what happened, and you're like, oh uh, like
Speaker 1: you're just taking their words at face value and you're
Speaker 1: losing the emotional component. It's missing, it's not landing on you.
Speaker 1: And they're just like, well, what is wrong with you?
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 1: Like you did you not hear what I just said?
Speaker 1: And you can stop and think about it and be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's crazy, but like in the moment, it's not, it's
Speaker 1: not there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally another And this is something I never
Speaker 3: knew anything about until we started researching this, but false
Speaker 3: memory or falty memory can.
Speaker 2: Be issue if you have ADHD.
Speaker 3: And it's not just well I just don't remember things
Speaker 3: as they really were.
Speaker 2: It can literally be like a false memory.
Speaker 3: They've done tests with kids and they showed that kids
Speaker 3: with ADHD are much more likely to remember things that
Speaker 3: weren't on a list. And this is sort of the
Speaker 3: key here. Not only that, but be really emphatic that
Speaker 3: those memories were correct and trying to defend those memories.
Speaker 3: And that can be not only a frustration, but a
Speaker 3: real challenge, especially as you get into adulthood to sort
Speaker 3: of be able to construct your autobiography of who you are,
Speaker 3: because that's all based on your memories.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because if you can accept that you have false
Speaker 1: memories and that you embellish stuff that you don't remember
Speaker 1: inadvertently you don't know that you're doing this, you start
Speaker 1: to question all of your memories, like which ones are true,
Speaker 1: which ones are made up. That's a huge problem individually,
Speaker 1: but also as far as relationships go. You're accidentally inadvertently
Speaker 1: gaslighting the people that you're like, no, that totally didn't happen,
Speaker 1: or you said this, I didn't say that. And to
Speaker 1: get to a point where you can trust the other
Speaker 1: person's version of events what you're doing, you're having to
Speaker 1: disavow your own version of reality and rely on somebody
Speaker 1: else's version of reality. And that's probably the hardest mental
Speaker 1: thing a person can do in their life, is abandoned,
Speaker 1: like just like not trust their view of reality and
Speaker 1: be like, okay, I trust your version instead. It's one
Speaker 1: of the hardest things you could possibly ever do. And
Speaker 1: that's what it requires to not accidentally gaslight people and
Speaker 1: not get arguments all the time because your memories are false.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I imagine you know, you keep kind of
Speaker 3: going back to this. How so much of this can
Speaker 3: lead to a lack of ability to connect with people
Speaker 3: in different ways. I imagine when you find your person
Speaker 3: or your person's in your life, it may be maybe
Speaker 3: a smaller number than it would have been otherwise, but
Speaker 3: I'm I would think that maybe some of those connections,
Speaker 3: because so much trust is involved, can be even deeper sometimes.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, for sure, if you can find somebody that
Speaker 1: you feel like you can be yourself around and just
Speaker 1: let your guard down and they accept you as you
Speaker 1: actually are, you hang on to those people for sure.
Speaker 1: And that's true whether you have ADHD or autism. For sure,
Speaker 1: Like if that's how whenever you find those people. But
Speaker 1: it's like you said, they're going to be much fewer
Speaker 1: and farther between because you're lacking that initial easiness of like,
Speaker 1: oh I like you, Oh I like you too, Let's
Speaker 1: start hanging out more and cultivate a friendship naturally without
Speaker 1: even thinking about it. Each relationship is a lot of
Speaker 1: work for people with ADHD. So yeah, of course you're
Speaker 1: going to have fewer of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: You and these are you know, we're kind of going
Speaker 3: through just sort of like what it's like to live
Speaker 3: with it. So some of these our downers, but you
Speaker 3: are more I believe, twice as likely to be injured
Speaker 3: in life if you have ADHD, which sounds kind of weird,
Speaker 3: but it makes sense. You know, if you're distractive or distracted,
Speaker 3: or if you're impulsive, if you take more risks, that's
Speaker 3: going to lead to more injury in life. There's also
Speaker 3: this very very strange thing called the ADHD sway, where
Speaker 3: it's a literal physical imbalance, a postural imbalance that's associated
Speaker 3: with ADHD, which could be a short stuff on its own, maybe.
Speaker 1: I think so you have found this hilarious video I
Speaker 1: think on Instagram of somebody saying, like, what it's like
Speaker 1: walking next to somebody with ADHD. And because the ADHD
Speaker 1: person will accidentally walk in front of you or walk
Speaker 1: like kind of sway too close to you or something
Speaker 1: like that, you end up the guy who's like walking
Speaker 1: along next to this girl who's talking to him, and
Speaker 1: like he ends up having to like climb over like
Speaker 1: a jungle. It ends up having to walk through a
Speaker 1: bush and like all this all this stuff, and the
Speaker 1: person with ADHD is totally oblivious that all this is
Speaker 1: going on. But it's because of that that ADHD sway.
Speaker 1: They don't as far as I know, no one knows
Speaker 1: exactly what it is, but they think it could have
Speaker 1: something to do with the differences in brain structure, has
Speaker 1: something to do with the balance as well, because it's
Speaker 1: in the brain as well as in the ears.
Speaker 2: Fascinating. All right, we're in.
Speaker 3: The act one, two, three, four, five, We're headed toward
Speaker 3: the act six.
Speaker 1: Wow, is this the one where the guns go off?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 2: I hope not.
Speaker 3: So we're headed toward act six and we will talk
Speaker 3: more about the destruction of masking behaviors right after this.
Speaker 1: Definitely large chrysk.
Speaker 4: Lately, I've been learning some stop about in.
Speaker 1: Volume.
Speaker 4: How about the one on border like disorder orner before
Speaker 4: but it was so nicety e.
Speaker 5: Body listen.
Speaker 4: Stop.
Speaker 1: So Chuck, you promised that we're going to talk about masking.
Speaker 1: So I feel like my back's against the wall. I
Speaker 1: have to start talking about masking, which I will right now.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, are you masking right now?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think at all times people with ADHD mask to
Speaker 1: varying degrees. For sure. I feel very comfortable on the episode.
Speaker 2: But you know, yeah, I didn't mean to put you
Speaker 2: on the spot. I was kind of just joking. What
Speaker 2: is masking? Let me ask you.
Speaker 1: That masking is camouflaging your symptoms to blend in better.
Speaker 3: And how bad can that get? And how bad is
Speaker 3: that for somebody?
Speaker 1: In some ways it's necessary and needed just to navigate
Speaker 1: the world just to blend in and not to blend
Speaker 1: in like don't look at me, but to seem but
Speaker 1: to be able to interact with people in levels that
Speaker 1: they're not like, huh, what's wrong with you? They're paying
Speaker 1: attention instead to what you're saying or you know, the
Speaker 1: value that you have. Yeah, you have to if you
Speaker 1: have ADHD and autism. A lot of neurotypical disorders, if
Speaker 1: not all of them require you to mask to be
Speaker 1: able to just kind of live in the world. Right,
Speaker 1: So in that sense, it stinks. And there's a lot
Speaker 1: of I think you kind of mentioned it either earlier
Speaker 1: in Part one. Some employers are starting to create more neurodiverse,
Speaker 1: inclusive workplaces where it's just like, just be yourself. But traditionally,
Speaker 1: if you want to just make it in the world,
Speaker 1: you have to mask to some degree, right, And so
Speaker 1: in that sense that's okay, or at the very least
Speaker 1: that's not the most insidious version of masking. The problem
Speaker 1: with that is that starts to carry over throughout other
Speaker 1: parts of your life, and you find that you eventually
Speaker 1: develop a version of yourself that you assume other people
Speaker 1: would prefer to be around, and in a lot of
Speaker 1: cases you're probably correct. And so in addition to, you know,
Speaker 1: all of the exhaustingness that it keeps from not you know,
Speaker 1: getting up and running around the conference table during a
Speaker 1: meeting and being like, now go ahead, I'm just keep going,
Speaker 1: I'm listening you. You. Also, your self esteem takes a
Speaker 1: real nose dive because what you're training yourself is that
Speaker 1: your you is not good enough. You have to you
Speaker 1: have to hide yourself for people to accept you or
Speaker 1: value you. That's the most insidious part of masking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't imagine that to even It can get
Speaker 3: so bad where you lose your sense of self because
Speaker 3: you're masking so much. Obviously, something like this can manifest
Speaker 3: in bad ways. Swings, anger, those are symptoms that can
Speaker 3: be associated with ADHD because of the masking, and you know,
Speaker 3: regulating those mood swings. Being unable to to be sort
Speaker 3: of generally in a stable emotional state can be very,
Speaker 3: very challenging, and that takes a lot of energy. And
Speaker 3: that's part of the fatigue that can come along with
Speaker 3: ADHD is you're if you're always on or playing a
Speaker 3: role that you think you should play to fit into
Speaker 3: work or life for the world, it's got to be exhausting.
Speaker 4: It is.
Speaker 1: So you're more irritable, So you're more prone to like
Speaker 1: get mad at somebody who cut you off in traffic,
Speaker 1: whereas like a neurotypical person might be like, huh, that
Speaker 1: guy's having a bad day, or what a jerk or
Speaker 1: something like that. You know, Yeah, you add all this
Speaker 1: stuff together, and research consistently shows that people with ADHD
Speaker 1: have lower self esteem and lower self compassion too than
Speaker 1: neurotypical people. And that's yeah again, like I said, it's
Speaker 1: a really insidious part of ADHD and just being neurodiverse
Speaker 1: in general. Again, it's not just ADHD people who have
Speaker 1: to mask. Anybody who isn't neurotypical will feel like they
Speaker 1: have to mask at least in some situations unless they
Speaker 1: make a conscious decision not to do that. It's almost
Speaker 1: like resisting an impulse and just being like, I am
Speaker 1: going to be me in every situation, and to tell
Speaker 1: you the truth, I'm not even sure that that's possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and resisting impulses one of the challenges anyway.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, exactly, good point.
Speaker 3: So you know, as far as families go, we already
Speaker 3: mentioned that that can you know, family members maybe on eggshells.
Speaker 3: There have been studies that have shown that you may
Speaker 3: have a lower parental warmth and especially maternal warmth toward
Speaker 3: a kid with ADHD, which is super sad, more stress,
Speaker 3: more depression they found among among mothers especially, And if
Speaker 3: you have like one neurodiverse child, one kid with ADHD,
Speaker 3: and two or three other kids or just one other
Speaker 3: kid who is neurotypical, that can be really challenging for everybody,
Speaker 3: including the neurotypical kid. And they have found adults with
Speaker 3: ADHD have about a twice as likely a chance of
Speaker 3: getting divorced as a neurotypical couple.
Speaker 1: Right, So, yeah, there's a lot of challenges just in
Speaker 1: living everyday life at home, even not even just at
Speaker 1: work or at the mall or something like that. There's
Speaker 1: some other real bummer downsides to having ADHD. As a population,
Speaker 1: you're very susceptible to addiction because again, like these things
Speaker 1: flood your brain with dopamine, so you learn to do
Speaker 1: those over and over and over again. So it's really
Speaker 1: easy to get addicted to just about anything if you
Speaker 1: have ADHD. There's a study of people who were in
Speaker 1: treatment in the US. I can't remember when it was conducted,
Speaker 1: but they found a quarter of them had ADHD and
Speaker 1: another quarter. Between twenty four percent and sixty two percent
Speaker 1: of homeless people in the US were found to have
Speaker 1: ADHD despite again only maybe three point one percent of
Speaker 1: adults globally having the disorder, so they're disproportionately represented in those.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for surations. So here's the good news, everybody.
Speaker 3: We've been through five acts and a third of some
Speaker 3: good things, some bad things, and real challenges.
Speaker 2: We cried, we laughed, we cried.
Speaker 3: For sure, it's a very, in fact, one of the
Speaker 3: most highly treatable conditions or disorder.
Speaker 2: I don't even like saying disorder, you know.
Speaker 3: But I guess that's how they list it that you
Speaker 3: can have. There are a few things you can do
Speaker 3: treatment wise. There is coaching, there's therapy, and there's medication.
Speaker 3: You may try one of these things, you might try two,
Speaker 3: you might try all three. As an individual or a parent,
Speaker 3: if you're helping your kid through the situation.
Speaker 1: Well that's the most effective usually is all three of those.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, medication can be very effective.
Speaker 3: As of twenty sixteen, sixty two percent of kids in
Speaker 3: the US that are diagnosed were on medication, thirty percent
Speaker 3: of those were only on medication, thirty two percent were
Speaker 3: on medication and behavioral treatment, and fifteen percent shunned the
Speaker 3: medication and just did behavioral treatment.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of understandable for a parent to make
Speaker 1: a decision, and that many parents to make the decision
Speaker 1: like I don't want to put my kid on speed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because again, like central nervous system stimulants are the go
Speaker 1: to drug for treating ADHD because it really really works.
Speaker 1: It's like flip a light switch, I understand, where like
Speaker 1: just even from the first dose, you're like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is what it feels like to be neurotypical. And one
Speaker 1: of those stimulants that is prescribed one type adderall vivance straterra,
Speaker 1: they are literal amphetamines. So the idea of putting your
Speaker 1: kid on amphetamines really does not sit right with a
Speaker 1: lot of parents, even though the state of understanding the
Speaker 1: consensus in the professional ADHD community, despite a lot of
Speaker 1: non professionals giving contrary advice for information, Yeah, study after
Speaker 1: study has shown that kids on stimulants for ADHD treatment
Speaker 1: do not get addicted to those stimulants, Like it just
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. And then it also doesn't set them up
Speaker 1: for increased addictions later in life, and it may actually decrease.
Speaker 1: Some studies of show the proneness to addiction of other
Speaker 1: stuff later in life even too. And I don't want
Speaker 1: to be just like a lackey for psychostimulants as ADHD treatment.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of different info out there, but from
Speaker 1: what I could tell when I researched it for this.
Speaker 1: The professional community generally agrees they are not harmful to
Speaker 1: be on, even long term.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are a couple of kinds. There's immediate release
Speaker 3: medicines that's sort of as needed, like a maybe up
Speaker 3: to four hour effective time window. You may crash really
Speaker 3: hard after that or get really tired or depressed after that.
Speaker 3: There are extended release medications that's sort of the morning
Speaker 3: pill that can last all day. Sometimes sometimes it's six hours,
Speaker 3: sometimes it's up to sixteen. Sometimes people tag team those
Speaker 3: take that pill in the morning and then either as
Speaker 3: needed or in the afternoon or evening one of the
Speaker 3: immediate release medicines. And you have to get screened, you know,
Speaker 3: for something like this. They're going to do like a
Speaker 3: cardiovascular screen for health risks and stuff like that. But
Speaker 3: it's sort of I believe they haven't found link to
Speaker 3: cardiovascular disease, right, But didn't they there was something about
Speaker 3: the heart you found that was contrary to that, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a study in the Journal of the American
Speaker 1: Medical Association that I think from like twenty twenty three
Speaker 1: that was like, actually, we studied some dudes in Sweden,
Speaker 1: and it seems like they were at an increased risk
Speaker 1: of cardiovascular disease from long term psychostimulant use for ADHD.
Speaker 1: So again it's possible that we just don't know enough
Speaker 1: or people haven't been on it long enough. But again,
Speaker 1: these things were developed in the fifties and kids have
Speaker 1: been on them since the seventies eighties at the latest
Speaker 1: when they started putting them on well effectively speed to
Speaker 1: treat this stuff. And there doesn't seem to be a
Speaker 1: lot of research that suggests they are harmful.
Speaker 3: Right, if you don't respond well of those, if the
Speaker 3: side effects are no good, there are other medicines that
Speaker 3: you can take that are not stimulants alpha antagonists sometimes
Speaker 3: sometimes like they found that some medications to treat high
Speaker 3: blood blood pressure like clonidine, have you know, improved ADHD symptoms.
Speaker 3: So you know, talk to your doctor if this is
Speaker 3: something you're interested in, and you know, just we're not
Speaker 3: medical professionals, so you know, speak, speak to your doctor
Speaker 3: and like really do some research and dig in. It's
Speaker 3: you know, putting your kid or your adult self on
Speaker 3: a on any kind of medication, it's not something to
Speaker 3: take lightly. So just you know, really really dig in
Speaker 3: there and ask questions.
Speaker 1: For sure, and no no shade on you if you're
Speaker 1: a parent, that's like, I don't care what you say.
Speaker 1: I'm not putting my kid on speed for sure, totally
Speaker 1: totally get that. Like I respect anybody's to about that,
Speaker 1: because it doesn't mean that you don't care about your kid.
Speaker 1: I respect anybody's decision about stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Of course.
Speaker 1: So I said that the most effective I guess approach
Speaker 1: to treating ADHD is not just medication, but also different
Speaker 1: types of therapy and then also some other interventions like
Speaker 1: exercise and nutrition, and when you put all that together,
Speaker 1: it's much easier to treat ADHD symptoms. And one of
Speaker 1: the first things, especially with kids with ADHD, is family training,
Speaker 1: where you teach the family how to teach the kid
Speaker 1: how to act and behave like what's expected of them,
Speaker 1: what the consequences are, and not just the kid, the
Speaker 1: whole family is supposed to fully understand and be very
Speaker 1: clear on all of the house rules and the structure
Speaker 1: of the family. And I guess so the younger kids
Speaker 1: can effectively tell on the kid with ADHD when he
Speaker 1: misbehaves or she does. And I saw the authoritative parenting
Speaker 1: type is the most effective, which was described as high
Speaker 1: control with high warmth and high support. Oh interesting, but
Speaker 1: also that means okay, so high warmth, right, does that
Speaker 1: mean that some parents make a decision to not be
Speaker 1: warm to their kids, like they think that that's the
Speaker 1: best way to raise kids?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, sadly, sure there are all kinds of parents,
Speaker 3: but I feel like that probably high warmth probably means
Speaker 3: extra warmth, like being really attuned to providing that extra
Speaker 3: warmth would be my.
Speaker 1: Guests on fire, like a furnace of a parent.
Speaker 2: You mentioned exercise.
Speaker 3: Of course, that's good for everybody when it comes to
Speaker 3: mood regulation and your brain functioning at its highest. But
Speaker 3: for sure, if you have ADHD, it can increase dopamine,
Speaker 3: it can improve your executive functioning. If you have a
Speaker 3: lot of pen of energy, especially if you're a kid,
Speaker 3: you know, with hyperactivity, exercise can really can really help
Speaker 3: for sure.
Speaker 1: Coaching is another one too, this therapy obviously, but coaching
Speaker 1: is huge in the ADHD community because you're not like, Okay,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with you, Let's figure out all your traumas
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. It's like, okay, you're having trouble
Speaker 1: with time management, Let's figure out what works for you
Speaker 1: for getting better at time management. It's a it's a
Speaker 1: legitimate way to approach ADHD symptoms. So are productive strategies
Speaker 1: where that will probably also come out of coaching sessions.
Speaker 1: And one thing that you'll learn very early on is
Speaker 1: phone calendars that are easily accessed, that you can put
Speaker 1: reminders on all the time, alarms on your phone, anything
Speaker 1: that can remind you can become like second nature to
Speaker 1: use it to really help you navigate ADHD symptoms and
Speaker 1: remember important stuff.
Speaker 3: Systems, baby, that's the key, that's right, Getting systems in
Speaker 3: place ADHD or not. Systems are just the older I get,
Speaker 3: the more I realize it. If you don't have a
Speaker 3: system in place, then you're just you're just flailing.
Speaker 2: You know. You got to get a system. They did,
Speaker 2: you know, outcomes are pretty good.
Speaker 3: There was a survey This is a little bit old,
Speaker 3: but it's you know, I think it's probably still pretty
Speaker 3: pretty on par. But twenty twenty twenty twelve, twenty twelve
Speaker 3: survey of three hundred and fifty one English language studies,
Speaker 3: So I guess this is like a meta analysis of
Speaker 3: long term outcomes of people with ADHD found that seventy
Speaker 3: two percent of people treated had improved outcomes when it
Speaker 3: comes to everything from self esteem to fewer accidents behind
Speaker 3: the wheel, less rates of addiction, anti social behavior, increased employment,
Speaker 3: increased academic success. So seventy two percent if you are treated,
Speaker 3: that's that's great, that's really successful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of good resources too for ADHD.
Speaker 1: There's a researcher named Melissa Orlov. She holds marriage seminars
Speaker 1: that really kind of paint ADHD in an almost exclusively
Speaker 1: positive light. And if you were a couple that's tried
Speaker 1: like traditional marriage counseling, you've been like, this isn't working.
Speaker 1: It's because that stuff's geared toward neurotic typical people. Hers
Speaker 1: is geared toward neurodiverse people. Melissa Orlov is very frequently
Speaker 1: criticized as being overly positive about ADHD. There's a researcher
Speaker 1: named Gina Perla who came out with a much more
Speaker 1: balanced look. It seems like an ADHD called is it
Speaker 1: You Me or adult ADHD, which is a yeah. And
Speaker 1: then Russell Barkley has written a lot of books too
Speaker 1: for kids and parents and adults, and he was the
Speaker 1: president of the American Psychological Association for a while, so
Speaker 1: he's no slouch no, And again, be very wary of
Speaker 1: who you're listening to on social media. But there are
Speaker 1: psychiatrists who specialize in ADHD who post a lot on
Speaker 1: social media. And Kim be really helpful on Instagram too
Speaker 1: that I wanted to shout out Perry Nichols mandanis it's great.
Speaker 1: And then the psych doctor Md. Sasha Hamdani, she has
Speaker 1: ADHD yourself and she wrote a book called Self Care
Speaker 1: for People with ADHD.
Speaker 3: All great resources, and you know what, let's skip listener
Speaker 3: email all together and just encourage people to support one another,
Speaker 3: dig into those resources, try and lead with empathy and understanding.
Speaker 2: You get much further in life. And rate and review
Speaker 2: our show.
Speaker 1: Well put Chuck very nice. In the meantime, if you
Speaker 1: want to get in touch with us, you can email us.
Speaker 1: You can send us that email to stuff podcast at
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com.
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