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Speaker 1: Murder in Oregon is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: After Mike Frankie's death, gossip in the drug and crime

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Speaker 2: community linked two men to it, Johnny Krause, who actually

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Speaker 2: confessed to the murder, and Tim Natividad. In our last episode,

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Speaker 2: Natividad's childhood friend Vince Taylor said he believed Tim could

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Speaker 2: easily have been the man who killed Frankie, and he

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Speaker 2: wasn't the only one.

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Speaker 3: There were a number of people in the underworld who

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Speaker 3: right away thought that Natividad had been involved. One of

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Speaker 3: them was Greg Johnson. His name was then. He was

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Speaker 3: one of the inmates who came forward in the eighty

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Speaker 3: six investigation, and he's back out on the streets in

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Speaker 3: the drug business again.

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Speaker 2: Greg Johnson first met Timothy Natividad in the Salem drug

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Speaker 2: scene in the early eighties. In nineteen eighty three, Johnson

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Speaker 2: was jailed for robbery charges, essentially taking the wrap for

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Speaker 2: Natividad locking in their association, and when Johnson was released

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty six, the two reconnected.

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Speaker 3: The morning after Frankie murder, his drug partner, John Bray,

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Speaker 3: was driving down the street going home from work release

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Speaker 3: and Greg hailed him and got him to drive into

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Speaker 3: a parking lot there in roths and Brace told me

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Speaker 3: Greg Johnson was sweating, he was obviously scared and had

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Speaker 3: taken a lot of myth. And he told him that

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Speaker 3: he had picked up Tim Natividad the night before at

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Speaker 3: the Dome building. And that's all Bray could get out

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Speaker 3: of him. But it was clear, he said that Johnson

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Speaker 3: was trying to tell him he knew something about the murder.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lauren brit Pacheco, and this is murder in Oregon.

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Speaker 2: Nigel Jaquis is a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter who

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Speaker 2: writes for the Willamette Week in Portland. He's a tall,

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Speaker 2: lean man with a direct, intellectual way about him that

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Speaker 2: mirrors his meticulous reporting. In two thousand and seven, Natividad's

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Speaker 2: drug buddy, Greg Johnson reached out to Nigel from an

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Speaker 2: Oregon prison, claiming to have information about who killed Michael Frankie.

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Speaker 4: I was skeptical, as you would be, but he said

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Speaker 4: enough to make me willing to go see him. And

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Speaker 4: he had enough information and enough specific details and a

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Speaker 4: good enough story that I think I went and saw

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Speaker 4: him four times. He said that he had often served

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Speaker 4: as muscle or backup for Natividad, that he would come

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Speaker 4: to drug deals with a gun and sort of be

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Speaker 4: the enforcer, and that Natividad had asked him to drive

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Speaker 4: him to the office where my Frankie was killed it's

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Speaker 4: called the Dome building, and that he later picked Natividad

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Speaker 4: up and also had driven him to another location in

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Speaker 4: Salem subsequently, where Natividad received an envelope.

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Speaker 2: Full of cash, and the man Johnson claims delivered that

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Speaker 2: envelope of cash an Oregon Department of Corrections official, and

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Speaker 2: not just any official.

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Speaker 4: It was actually a the warden at the Oregon State Prison,

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Speaker 4: which was then the largest prison in the state. So

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Speaker 4: his story was fit into a narrative that many people

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Speaker 4: had speculated about, which was that Frankie's murder was not

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Speaker 4: a car prow gone bad, as it has been portrayed

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Speaker 4: by law enforcement, but was a contract killing orchestrated by

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Speaker 4: corrupt prison officials who were threatened by Michael Frankie.

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Speaker 5: He found his story plausible.

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Speaker 4: I found it plausible. Again, I couldn't prove it because

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Speaker 4: key players are dead.

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Speaker 2: So the question was what did Greg Johnson have to

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Speaker 2: get by coming forward with his story?

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Speaker 4: When I talked to him. He was facing a twenty

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Speaker 4: year sentence, and his stated motivation was in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighty six, I believe he had been a witness

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Speaker 4: in a corruption proceeding against senior Department of Corrections officials.

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Speaker 4: He had basically said, here's what I saw on these

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Speaker 4: guys are corrupt.

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Speaker 2: Just a reminder, that's the same nineteen eighty six Lbeday

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Speaker 2: investigation into corruption within Corrections. So Johnson said, since nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty six he'd considered himself a marked man for speaking

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Speaker 2: out against that corruption. But why would he come forward

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Speaker 2: with this two decades later? What did he have to lose?

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Speaker 4: Then, he said he knew that Department of Corrections officials

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Speaker 4: had ordered Michael Frankie's murder, so he thought he was

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Speaker 4: doublely vulnerable. So his view was, he's going to do

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Speaker 4: twenty years in the Oregon State prison system, he's a

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Speaker 4: marked man, and for two reasons, he's unlikely to survive.

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Speaker 4: So at the time he had spoken to me, he

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Speaker 4: had already asked to be an administrative segregation and people

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Speaker 4: call that the whole. In other words, he wanted to

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Speaker 4: be separated from the mainstream prison population. So His state

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Speaker 4: of motivation was he wanted to serve his time in

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Speaker 4: another state where he was not under the thumb impossible

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Speaker 4: retribution of people that he thought were.

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Speaker 2: Corrupt, whether you believe Greg Johnson or not, like Vince Taylor,

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Speaker 2: it's another association between Tim Natividad and Michael's murder, and

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Speaker 2: another connection tying Natividad to the murder would soon come forward.

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Speaker 3: Conrad Garcia is a very unusual character. Obviously intelligent, he's artistic.

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Speaker 3: At least at one point in his life, he was

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Speaker 3: quite out of control. At this time, he had been

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Speaker 3: serving I think eleven years for a nine point rape.

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Speaker 3: He was due to get out on parole, in fact

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Speaker 3: that he was scheduled for release on week before the murder. Then,

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Speaker 3: about six months after Michael Frankie is murdered, he goes

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Speaker 3: to his counselor in prison and tells the counselor that

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Speaker 3: he knows something about the murder. He says he was

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Speaker 3: approached by Tim Natividad to do the murder, and he

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Speaker 3: knows that Scott McCallister, the prison lawyer, arranged it.

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Speaker 2: Is there a record of that.

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Speaker 3: I pulled up the report by Laurance Conrad's counselor and

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Speaker 3: it says this is what the task force wrote from

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Speaker 3: his report, Laurance was interviewing inmate Garcia concerning an institutional matter.

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Speaker 3: During the conversation, Garcia told Durance, mister Frankie was killed

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Speaker 3: by Timothy David Natividad. This was arranged by Scott McCallister.

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Speaker 3: So that's the information they had.

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Speaker 2: Wow, now the police have an official memo from someone

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Speaker 2: in corrections that they just can't ignore the counselor.

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Speaker 3: Lawrence then does what he's required to do and he

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Speaker 3: writes a short memorandum on what Conrad has told him

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Speaker 3: sends it to the Frankie Task for US, which of

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Speaker 3: course creates a problem for them because it's now part

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Speaker 3: of the public record and they can't pretend it doesn't exist.

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Speaker 3: So they send one of the lead detectives, Ken Passinia,

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Speaker 3: to talk to Conrad, and it's clear from Pasaya's report

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Speaker 3: that they're not really much interested in talking about Natividad,

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Speaker 3: and he doesn't even ask about McAllister.

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Speaker 2: The lead detective on the task force doesn't even ask

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Speaker 2: Conrad Garcia about it, or.

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Speaker 3: If he did, he sure didn't write anything about it.

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Speaker 3: I've got his report here too, nothing about McCallister.

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Speaker 2: So then what happens to Natividad as a suspect in

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Speaker 2: the investigation at that point.

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Speaker 3: So he's effectively dropped and that's pretty much the end

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Speaker 3: of Natividad as far as the official investigation goes.

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Speaker 5: That's incredible.

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Speaker 3: They can't pursue him without pursuing McAllister.

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Speaker 2: Conrad Garcia's name comes up in connection with another Salem

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Speaker 2: criminal when it comes to theories about Mike's murder, Buck Burgess,

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Speaker 2: remember that name. That's the guy who lived at the

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Speaker 2: house near the Dome building. The same guy Johnny Krause,

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Speaker 2: the man who confessed to Mike's murder then recanted said

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Speaker 2: was involved.

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Speaker 6: Here's Kevin Charles James Belden Buster aka Buck Burgess aka

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Speaker 6: Bear aka Teddy Bear.

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Speaker 2: Multiple convictions and according to Kevin Burgess was also charged

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Speaker 2: with murder, but served time for manslaughter.

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Speaker 6: In California where he killed a baby, numerous robberies, assaults,

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Speaker 6: assault in the prison here in Oregon. He was a

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Speaker 6: person of interest back in the New Mexico prison riots

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Speaker 6: as a major shit disturber from what I understand, and

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Speaker 6: he was an inmate down there along with I think

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Speaker 6: about forty or fifty other inmates from Oregon that Oregon

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Speaker 6: had shipped down there because of overcrowding in the organ system.

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Speaker 6: He's formerly married to Melody Garcia. Melody Darlene Rothschild was

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Speaker 6: her maiden name. Melody was subsequently married to Conrad Garcia,

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Speaker 6: who is an inmate doing time at the Oregon State Penitentiary.

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Speaker 2: And Conrad Nick Garcia buck Burgess's cellmate. Melody and the

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Speaker 2: drugs turn out to be a common thread that connects

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Speaker 2: them all. While Melody passed a few years ago, we

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Speaker 2: spoke with her daughter, Carrie, who was subjected to her

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Speaker 2: mother's drug dealing, abuse and depravity.

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Speaker 7: My name is Rothschild. I am the daughter of Melody

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Speaker 7: Rothschild Garcia Burgess. I don't know honestly, Melody Rothschild Burgess,

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Speaker 7: then Garcia, my mother's I think fourth and fifth husband

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Speaker 7: were inmates. Instead of dating, she married people. She's married

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Speaker 7: eight times. The death certificate was a nightmare.

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Speaker 8: I handled that.

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Speaker 2: Carrie and her siblings had been raised in an upper

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Speaker 2: middle class home in Utah until her mother abruptly decided

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Speaker 2: to divorce their father and moved to Oregon to marry Burgess,

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Speaker 2: a distant cousin. That's when their lives and mother really

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Speaker 2: began to downhill spiral.

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Speaker 8: My mom was on meth amphetamines.

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Speaker 7: She was using them with an ivy drug use and

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Speaker 7: they're often lace with different things. And there were people

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Speaker 7: that were doing heroin there as well, And I don't

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Speaker 7: believe she was really into heroin. Her primary drug was

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Speaker 7: crank because what they called it at that time, but

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Speaker 7: there were all sorts of drugs around us.

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Speaker 2: In person, Carrie is slim and delicate. She apparently inherited

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Speaker 2: her striking looks from her mother, and her refined features

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Speaker 2: are very much in keeping with her regal last name,

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Speaker 2: but she projects a toughness and uneasiness about her that

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Speaker 2: reflects her abusive upbringing.

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Speaker 7: It was just a nightmare. The whole thing was a nightmare.

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Speaker 7: It was just complete insanity. My mom was just not

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Speaker 7: a mother. We were I don't really know, like as

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Speaker 7: far as my sister and brother and I, there was

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Speaker 7: no sense of family.

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Speaker 8: My mom was just complete.

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Speaker 7: Doing everything in anything, you know, for her own self

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Speaker 7: or visitation. Her life completely involved getting up and going

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Speaker 7: to the prison.

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Speaker 8: She literally would.

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Speaker 7: Do her makeup in the morning and go do prison visitation.

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Speaker 7: Come back and do her makeup and go.

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Speaker 8: To the prison again.

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Speaker 7: And that was absolutely the center of her life.

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Speaker 8: Like that was it.

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Speaker 2: So she'd go to the prison two times a day

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Speaker 2: to visit one of her husbands at the time.

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Speaker 7: It was always Nick, That's always what I remember.

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Speaker 8: It was always Nick Conrad Garcia.

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Speaker 7: And actually the whole thing was she was completely insanely

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Speaker 7: obsessed with it. It was that was her entire life

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Speaker 7: was I got to get him out. It was all

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Speaker 7: she talked about was Nick and this conspiracy about getting

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Speaker 7: him out. And you were either with her or against her,

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Speaker 7: and that was it.

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Speaker 2: Aside from visiting the man she was obsessed with. Melody's

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Speaker 2: other perhaps main purpose was moving drugs into the prison

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Speaker 2: and contraband out.

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Speaker 7: I know she was bringing drugs and I know she

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Speaker 7: was getting jewelry, So those would be the two things

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Speaker 7: I would say. And when I say jewelry, I mean

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Speaker 7: it was always gold and different kinds of jewels in

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Speaker 7: the jewelry. So and bringing drugs in and it would

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Speaker 7: be in balloons and different things.

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Speaker 2: Melody would even take Carrie and her siblings to the

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Speaker 2: prison for twisted family visits.

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Speaker 8: Especially at the beginning.

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Speaker 7: She wanted us to embrace Nicky as our stepdad. Actually,

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Speaker 7: she wanted us to call him dad and things like that.

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Speaker 8: So he was young. He was as old as my

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Speaker 8: oldest sister.

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Speaker 7: Young, good looking guy, soft spoken. Really, I mean, looking back,

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Speaker 7: I see like he came across as a real nice guy.

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Speaker 7: He was very well mannered, gentle, you know. It was like,

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Speaker 7: crawl up on his laugh and love your daddy.

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Speaker 2: Melody's multiple daily visits to the prison would obviously have

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Speaker 2: raised red flags and violated visitation protocol, but it was

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Speaker 2: allowed to happen, and it happened openly.

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Speaker 7: When we were at the prison. It seemed like she

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Speaker 7: knew everyone who worked there. She did have a few

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Speaker 7: people she knew she was talking to them, but she

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Speaker 7: had been going to the prison for visitation, so she'd

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Speaker 7: be like, you stay right here, you know, and she'd

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Speaker 7: walk up and talk to people, and she had a

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Speaker 7: way about her though she was never.

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Speaker 8: In fear, like she knew what she was doing while

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Speaker 8: we were there.

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Speaker 2: Here's Kevin's take.

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Speaker 6: She's moving a lot of drugs into the joint. She's

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Speaker 6: going into visit three times a day, seven days a week,

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Speaker 6: which is unheard of. You've got to have some sort

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Speaker 6: of connection there to get in that many visits. You're

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Speaker 6: not allowed that many that often unless your name doesn't

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Speaker 6: go in the visitation records. So you must have known

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Speaker 6: somebody that could get you in without documenting your visit.

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Speaker 7: Look back now, and like, remember she didn't seem scared

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Speaker 7: and they I remember her having to go into the bathroom,

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Speaker 7: and I think that's what they did, is they put

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Speaker 7: stuff in the bathroom and then the inmate would go

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Speaker 7: in the bathroom and get it and you know, put

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Speaker 7: it in their butt or a mouth or wherever.

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Speaker 2: Melody's interaction with the prisoners and corrections officials wasn't limited

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Speaker 2: to prisons, and Carrie's home soon deteriorated into a disturbing

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Speaker 2: flophouse due to overcrowding in the prisons. Inmates would be

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Speaker 2: in periodic passes and they'd wind up crashing at Melody's

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Speaker 2: place to very physically reconnect with their wives or girlfriends.

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Speaker 2: They would do like conjugal visits at your house.

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Speaker 7: Yes, so while they were getting out on pass to

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Speaker 7: do whatever job it was to you know, trade for

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00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,360
Speaker 7: an early parole release, their wives would be able to

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Speaker 7: meet them at our house and see them that night.

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Speaker 7: Or nights while they were out.

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Speaker 5: And nobody would be the wiser.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And according to Kevin, prisoner passes were also passed out

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Speaker 2: for favors.

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Speaker 6: The people that were involved could get inmates out at

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Speaker 6: any time at their leisure out of their permission, slipped,

264
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Speaker 6: getting signed and from that from the maximum security prison.

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Speaker 8: It got to be pretty bad around there.

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Speaker 7: And I remember one guy that he was a biker

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Speaker 7: that most people would not talk to.

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Speaker 8: This guy, he came in.

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Speaker 7: He looked at our house, He looked at our fridge,

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Speaker 7: he saw nothing in there. He looked at me and

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Speaker 7: he said, I'm taking you to the store to get

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Speaker 7: some groceries. He filled his saddle bags with groceries. We

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Speaker 7: got back on his bike and came back. I think

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Speaker 7: that's all he said.

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Speaker 8: The whole time that he was at our house.

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Speaker 7: There were some scary people, like I probably shouldn't have

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Speaker 7: gone on his motorcycle, you know, Like I think back,

278
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Speaker 7: but like he probably wasn't a rapist or jolb abuser,

279
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Speaker 7: you know, but he was probably out to do a hit.

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Speaker 5: So twenty four to seven, there are people coming in

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Speaker 5: and out.

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Speaker 7: Of your constantly, and they're like they're fucking they're ruining things,

283
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Speaker 7: they're stealing, they're doing drugs. There's needles. I mean, it's horrible.

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Speaker 2: Carrie would have been barely thirteen when her older sister,

285
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 2: Christy fled the dysfunctional chaos. Carrie lost her protector and

286
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,560
Speaker 2: the room they shared when a move to another house

287
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,680
Speaker 2: left her with no space of her own.

288
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Speaker 7: I know, sounds so weird, but all of a sudden,

289
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Speaker 7: my bedroom became under the kitchen table.

290
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Speaker 8: I just took.

291
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Speaker 7: Blankets and I piled them over. I made a bedroom

292
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Speaker 7: for myself under there because that was the only space

293
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Speaker 7: I had that I could create to have like, you know, privacy.

294
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Speaker 8: So that was my bedroom.

295
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Speaker 7: So it seems so weird now, But Tracy had a

296
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Speaker 7: bedroom because she had now I think, two kids.

297
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Speaker 8: I can't even remember.

298
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Speaker 2: The situation around the house eventually got so dangerous that

299
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Speaker 2: Melody finally decided to send Carrie away.

300
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Speaker 7: She sent me away because she said that they were

301
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 7: trafficking kids and she was trying to keep me safe.

302
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 7: And so I left.

303
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,480
Speaker 2: And of all the places Melody could have sent Carrie,

304
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 2: including her biological father's functional home, Melody chose Conrad Garcia's mother.

305
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Speaker 7: It was so weird, like I look back and I'm like,

306
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,880
Speaker 7: why you just send me to my dad's. So I'm

307
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 7: in Hellsburg, California with a Jehovah witness in like a

308
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,359
Speaker 7: liberal area where they're like teaching sex education and she

309
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 7: won't sign off on me being able to participate.

310
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Speaker 8: And I'm like coming from this totally like interesting.

311
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,680
Speaker 7: Situation, like where things were not exactly conservative.

312
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Speaker 2: But Carrie had grown up around the type of people

313
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Speaker 2: her mom surrounded herself with, and at that point was

314
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,160
Speaker 2: used drugs herself, so she willingly returned to the dysfunction

315
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 2: she knew.

316
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Speaker 7: I remember calling my mom and she's like, you better

317
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Speaker 7: get back here, and I'm like, now.

318
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Speaker 8: You know he sent me away. And then eventually I.

319
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Speaker 7: Ended up getting on a I think it was a

320
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Speaker 7: Greyhound bus maybe, And that's really when Tim got in

321
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:22,680
Speaker 7: Brooster got in my life.

322
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Speaker 8: Right around there.

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Speaker 2: That Tim or Roosters Carrie calls him, is Tim Natibidad.

324
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Speaker 2: Tim became one of the main suppliers of Melodies drugs

325
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Speaker 2: and he was a frequent visitor to the house. But

326
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Speaker 2: he wasn't like the usual criminals that hung around.

327
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Speaker 7: He was well dressed, good looking, you know, had good dope.

328
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Speaker 7: I mean he was just a completely different situation. He

329
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 7: wasn't coming over to just like come hang about. Had

330
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 7: purpose when he came there. He was a businessman, finly

331
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Speaker 7: a businessman.

332
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Speaker 2: Carrie would barely have been a teenager at this point,

333
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Speaker 2: and the dashing Natividad stuck out because of his looks

334
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 2: and his companions.

335
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 7: When Natividad would come to our house, usually he would

336
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 7: come alone, and he came to our house on a

337
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 7: couple of different occasions with different people.

338
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Speaker 8: One time he came.

339
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Speaker 7: With who I believe is Scott McAllister, and then the

340
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 7: other time he came with someone who I believe is

341
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:38,200
Speaker 7: the guard from the prison. They pulled up in government vehicles.

342
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Speaker 7: And I only know that now from working in the

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Speaker 7: field of federal law and seeing government vehicles and knowing

344
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Speaker 7: you know.

345
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Speaker 3: Well, we know that she definitely recognized a guard from

346
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 3: the prison she'd see at the visitors desk. So that

347
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 3: is the person who had to allow her mother, Melody,

348
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 3: to go back and forth several times a day into

349
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Speaker 3: the prison, you know, in and out of the prison

350
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 3: carrying drugs. That was the major game that was being

351
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 3: played here. Beyond that, why other state cars would have

352
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 3: been there, I don't know, except that obviously you can't

353
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 3: deal drugs that openly into a prison without protection. So

354
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Speaker 3: at some point or another, corrections officials, state police officials

355
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 3: are involved.

356
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Speaker 7: She specifically didn't know and have detailed conversations with people.

357
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Speaker 8: Scott McAllister.

358
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Speaker 7: He came with him and they had conversations, and my

359
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 7: mom was very much like poktok talk and she wouldn't

360
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 7: shut up. My mom wouldn't shut up. She was like

361
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 7: a conspiracy theorist. It drove me crazy.

362
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 8: She couldn't keep anything quiet.

363
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Speaker 2: I questioned Phil about Carrie's recollection of the players involved.

364
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 2: She also believes that she saw Scott McCallister in her house.

365
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: Did she mention that to you?

366
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 3: Oh yeah. She said that she saw his picture in

367
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 3: the paper and she said, oh yeah, I remember him.

368
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 3: He was in our house.

369
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Speaker 5: At this point.

370
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 2: We want to stress that we have attempted to reach

371
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 2: out to Scott McAllister and others mentioned in this podcast

372
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 2: multiple times via phone, email, and certified letter requesting an

373
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 2: interview and or statement regarding the murder of Michael Frankie.

374
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: To this date, no one has agreed to our requests,

375
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 2: but Carrie is adamant that correction officials were in and

376
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 2: out of her home visiting her mother.

377
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 5: Did you know what they were talking about?

378
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 8: I would try to avoid it as much as possible.

379
00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 7: But she would always just blab her mouth everything, and oh,

380
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 7: we gotta have.

381
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 8: This part of phone call.

382
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 2: Oh we gotta have this call.

383
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 8: They're gonna call, and we're gonna go in there.

384
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 7: We're gonna have a call, and when they come.

385
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 8: We're gonna be in there, you know.

386
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 7: And I just didn't pay attention to it all. But

387
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 7: it was a big deal that I know, a big

388
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 7: big deal.

389
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 2: It was also around this time that Melody began to

390
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 2: treat Carrie like currency, a possession she could trade for

391
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: drugs and money. And this is how Carrie and Tim's

392
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 2: arrangement began.

393
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 8: That was really when I started getting involved with him

394
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 8: and he started coming around, and then he would just

395
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 8: take me away, you know, kind of like take me away.

396
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 7: And then and I remember I was really intrigued with him.

397
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 7: He was always on his motorcycle or in a fancy car,

398
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 7: and it was, you know, I much preferred to be there,

399
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 7: you know, like I hated being at my mom's.

400
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 8: It was just way better.

401
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 7: But then it was I was like I needed to

402
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 7: shut up when I was around people that he was with,

403
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 7: and I was okay with that, Like I was much

404
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 7: much happier doing that, like than being at my mom's house.

405
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 5: You're fourteen, he's how old.

406
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 7: Twenty twenty something, twenty three, twenty two. I don't even

407
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 7: know what.

408
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 5: Kind of relationship did you guys.

409
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 7: Have, So I guess this is the weird thing is that,

410
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 7: like I don't know, like I think that she thought

411
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 7: that she was going to be selling me for sacks.

412
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 8: And at the time, I was still a virgin, you.

413
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 7: Know, and when I went with him, you know, at first,

414
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 7: it was really really tense. And I remember like him

415
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 7: coming around at first, and he had gotten chlamydia and

416
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 7: so he was taken like pills for chlamydia.

417
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 8: Oh god. At one point when he was like, are

418
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 8: like good with us?

419
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 7: And I was like, I'm I've never done this, and

420
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 7: he was like what you've never you know?

421
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, And maybe it was Carrie's innocence

422
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: or her young age or just pity, but Tim Natividad

423
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 2: did something decent.

424
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 7: He didn't push himself on me at all. And then

425
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 7: he was like, I paid your mom for you to

426
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 7: come with me, and I'm like, oh, I think at

427
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 7: that point, I was just like, everything's just like sunk in,

428
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 7: and he was like, I'm gonna take care of you.

429
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: In a very heartbreaking way, Tim became more of a

430
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: caretaker to carry than her own mother.

431
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 9: It's like, it's such a feeling of betrayal from the

432
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 9: person who's supposed to protect you.

433
00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 10: But but he paid my mom again and again, and

434
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 10: he never ever made me be with him, never, So

435
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 10: it was really confusing.

436
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 7: You know, I thought I was in love with him.

437
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 8: You know, he bought me jewelry, me tris fed.

438
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: Carrie's home life was so unbearable that to her time

439
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: spent with Natividad was just better by comparison. Even when

440
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: he would take her along on drug deals and worse.

441
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 7: I'd go with him and I would be quiet, and

442
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 7: I would I wouldn't look if he didn't want.

443
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: Me to look.

444
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 8: And he did a lot of really bad things.

445
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 7: You know, there's a lot of really bad things.

446
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 8: He was really confusing.

447
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 10: He was always.

448
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 8: Really really good to me. It was really really difficult

449
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 8: to sort out.

450
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 9: It's hard when somebody's character is so conflicted, and I

451
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 9: think he was a really conflicted person.

452
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 8: I'd hear him like biting with people.

453
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: In the other room all the time.

454
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 8: He just wanted to be like a big.

455
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 2: Mobster, as much of a caretaker as Natividad may have been,

456
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 2: and despite Carrie's fondness for him, he was dragging her

457
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: into extremely dangerous situations.

458
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 9: I remember one time we literally like picked up kilos

459
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 9: of stuff and I just was with him, and I'm

460
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 9: literally like I was so so high because the method

461
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,479
Speaker 9: or crank, whatever it was was so strong that I

462
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 9: was like wound up and I just didn't know what

463
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 9: I was doing, you know. And I'm literally like lifting kilos,

464
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 9: like I didn't know there were kilos. But I'm just

465
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 9: helping him, like load him into Shorty's van, like so

466
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 9: many of them.

467
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: A quick aside. Shorty is Shorty Harden, a drug dealing

468
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: cohort of Natividad who will also figure into the Frankie

469
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: murder trial. Back to Carrie and Natividad, he.

470
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 9: Was moving so much, I mean probably like fifty and

471
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 9: I wouldn't shut up because I was so high. I

472
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 9: mean I was a young girl anyway, so I wouldn't

473
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 9: shut up. But I just was so spun out. All

474
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 9: I wanted was to not be at home. So that's

475
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 9: all I wanted, was really to go with him, because it.

476
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: Was better Carrie would witness Natividad's irrational and violent side firsthand.

477
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 7: We were at a house in I don't even know

478
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 7: where it was. I was too young to drive, and

479
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 7: I don't know exactly where, but you know, we would

480
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 7: go places and there would be dealings or whatever they

481
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 7: were doing.

482
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 8: I don't know. I would never ask. I would sit outside.

483
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 8: I would wait if.

484
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 7: I needed to wait in the car, in the van,

485
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 7: or in the kitchen or whatever. In this time, I

486
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 7: was sitting in at a table with a and he

487
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 7: was in another room, and there was a lot of shouting,

488
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 7: and then there were some gunshots.

489
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 8: Then the door opened.

490
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 7: And somebody in the other room, obviously I don't know

491
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 7: if it was him, had shot one of the people

492
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 7: that he was with and killed him. And he had

493
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 7: them over his shoulder, and I'm pretty sure it was

494
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 7: the woman that I'm sitting with, her boyfriend or husband,

495
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 7: and she just started screaming, and.

496
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 8: I mean, I've had nightmares about this day forever. But

497
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 8: he takes them out and puts some.

498
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 7: In a trunk of a car, and then we drove

499
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,479
Speaker 7: in Shorty's van and we took off and drove away,

500
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 7: and I went with him and I helped him, unfortunately

501
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 7: clean up the blood in the van because it was

502
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 7: on him.

503
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 8: Nick on the van. He looked at me and said,

504
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 8: we'll never ever speak of this again. And I was

505
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 8: so scared from that day.

506
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 7: You know.

507
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: And sometime after that is when someone supposedly taps Tendatividad

508
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: to have one of his prison connections kill Michael Frankie

509
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: while out on a pass. Here's Kevin.

510
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 6: The idea that they would get somebody out of the

511
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 6: joint to do the murder seems a little overwhelming, I

512
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 6: guess to the average person. But you have to realize that,

513
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 6: you know, guys like McAllister had been in and out

514
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 6: of that prison thousands of times and had a key

515
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 6: to every passageway, every booby hatch in the entire joint,

516
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 6: and there's hundreds of him, and he was very familiar,

517
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 6: very comfortable in the prison. And for years you've been

518
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 6: able to have this relationship with some of the inmates

519
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 6: that you be able to profit from those relationships. So

520
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 6: it is no stretch of the imagination that if you

521
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,239
Speaker 6: want somebody to commit a criminal act. Where would you

522
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 6: go to the farm that grows the criminal acts, but

523
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 6: the prison, and that you could take that person out

524
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 6: and they would have the perfect gallibi to commit the

525
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 6: crime and get back in. And who's going to be

526
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 6: the wiser.

527
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: So he had access to let anybody in or out

528
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: that he wanted at any time.

529
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 6: He could go in and out at his leisure, and

530
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 6: he could take anybody out with him at his leisure

531
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 6: and take him back at his leisure.

532
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: Sounds like a pretty full proof alibi. If people think

533
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: you're in prison, it's.

534
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 6: A pretty good alibi.

535
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 2: Even if that were the case, in terms of Conrad Garcia,

536
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 2: none of that would have been necessary because Garcia was

537
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: already scheduled to be paroled the week before Mike Frankie

538
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 2: was murdered. It was almost a little too convenient.

539
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 6: But Conrad had felt like he was getting set up

540
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 6: and he got scared, so he got himself into trouble

541
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 6: that got him put in the hole just a few

542
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 6: weeks before the murder. He was going to be the guy.

543
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: Years after Michael's murder, when the theories regarding Tim Nativitad

544
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: and Scott McAllister began to emerge, Kevin wanted to speak

545
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: to Conrad Garcia face to face to confirm the things

546
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: he'd heard, so he tracked him down at a halfway

547
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: house in Portland.

548
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 6: I went up there and asked the guy, I'd like

549
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 6: to meet Conrad Garcia, and he went my name signed in,

550
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 6: and he said, I don't know if he wants to

551
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 6: talk to you, because I know why you're here. And

552
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 6: he went and talked to Conrad, and Conrad came out

553
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 6: and he said, let's go sit down. I got some

554
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 6: things to tell you. You know, you expect a pretty rough character,

555
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 6: but he seemed like he was very muscular, and you

556
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 6: know it obviously been in the weight room a lot.

557
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 6: He said that he felt guilty that Mike was dead,

558
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 6: that he could have prevented it if he'd opened his

559
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 6: mouth sooner, and he started crying, and I started crying

560
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 6: to see him crying, and he apologized to me that

561
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 6: he didn't stop it. He said, your brother was a

562
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 6: good man and he shouldn't have died, and I could

563
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 6: have prevented it and I didn't. And I said, how

564
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 6: could you have prevented it? And he said what I

565
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 6: told the police was not everything that I could have

566
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 6: told them I knew specifically that Tim Natividad wanted me

567
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 6: to kill Mike Frankie. Not just a big guy with corrections,

568
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 6: It was specifically Mike Frankie.

569
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: On the next Murder in Oregon, another woman linked with

570
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: Tim Natividad reveals his obsession with his weapon of choice.

571
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 5: Tim always carried a knife. Tim had a huge knife collection.

572
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 5: With controlling her, Tim was threatening to kill me, my family.

573
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 2: And with murder.

574
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 5: I told God, you know I'm ready. You're gonna kill me.

575
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 5: I'm ready.

576
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: Murder in organ is hosted by Lauren Bright Pacheco and

577
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: Phil Stanford. Executive producers are Noel Brown, Lauren brt Pacheco,

578
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: and Phil Stanford. Supervising producer and lead editor is Taylor Chicogyne.

579
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: Sound designed by Tristan McNeil, Story editing by Matt Riddle,

580
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: Written by Phil Stanford, Matt Riddle, and Lauren Bright Pacheco.

581
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: Music written and performed by the Diamond Street Players and

582
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: mixed by Taylor Chiricogne, with music supervision by Noel Brown.

583
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: Additional music by Tristan McNeil. Murder in Oregon is a

584
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio