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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy Zephi. Fast

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Speaker 1: start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Caitlyn Duranday, Hey Jamie, do you have that article

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Speaker 2: for me? You're a reporter and I need you to

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Speaker 2: talk really fast to be so that we.

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Speaker 1: Haven't And I didn't do any research because I'm tired,

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Speaker 1: so I just made it up and here it is.

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Speaker 1: Let's put it in the paper.

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Speaker 2: Well that's okay. Yeah, let's just keep overlapping and talking

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Speaker 2: like this so that no one can understand what we're saying.

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Speaker 1: Okay, then that's kind of the charm of the movie,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, I guess for me, but for me, and

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Speaker 1: it's my birthday. God damn it.

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Speaker 2: Not anymore, Jamie, not anymore?

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Speaker 1: Oh shit, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. Say, my name

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Speaker 1: is Jamie Loptis.

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Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where

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Speaker 2: we examine movies through an intersecttional feminist lens, using the

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Speaker 2: Bechdel test as a jumping off point. But Jamie what's

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Speaker 2: the Bechdel Test.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you. I'll tell you what it is. I've

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Speaker 1: got it in this big old book right here. It's

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Speaker 1: a video metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, often

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Speaker 1: called the Bechdel Wallace test because she co created it

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Speaker 1: with a dame named Oh abroad, a broad name less Wallace.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, sorry, Les Wallas. Lots of versions of the test.

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Speaker 1: The version we use is this, two characters of a

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Speaker 1: marginalized genders with names you hear speak to each other

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Speaker 1: about something other than a fella for for two lines

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Speaker 1: or more. Does it happen in this movie? I would argue, yes,

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Speaker 1: which kind of feels like a miracle. Uh oh does it?

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Speaker 2: I didn't even notice because I didn't know who was

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Speaker 2: talking at any point.

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Speaker 1: It's like there's conversations between women that eventually divert to

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Speaker 1: be about a man. There's not a full conversation that

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Speaker 1: passes the Bechtel test, but there are exchanges between Hildy

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Speaker 1: and Molly that pass the Bechdel test. Yeah, and other

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Speaker 1: than that, it's like two incidentals account But I do

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Speaker 1: think that there's a conversation between Hilldy and Molly that

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Speaker 1: passes and that's the episode folks. No, just kidding, yod

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Speaker 1: bye see Laos so long It's his Girl Friday week

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Speaker 1: on the backdel cast. I was originally going to choose

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Speaker 1: this as one of my birthday picks on the Matreon,

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Speaker 1: but we went another direction to learn about that direction

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Speaker 1: head over to the Matreon. Wow, but this is still

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Speaker 1: I think a movie that warrants discussion because it's a

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Speaker 1: very famous movie, and yeah, what's your history with this movie?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I thought I had seen it because it's one of

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Speaker 2: those like classic Hollywood movies that you have to see

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Speaker 2: if you want to know about film, you know, say,

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Speaker 2: but twist. I thought I had seen it, and it

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Speaker 2: turns out I hadn't. I think I was getting it

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Speaker 2: confused with Philadelphia Story, which I have seen.

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Speaker 1: This does feel, Yeah, I always kind of forget that,

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Speaker 1: which is unfair to Rassalin Russell, who I think gives

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Speaker 1: an unbelievable performance in this movie. I always sort of

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Speaker 1: code this in my brain as a Katherine Hepburn movie,

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Speaker 1: which it is not. But I also think that's somewhat

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Speaker 1: understandable given the fact that at the Howard Hawks movie

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Speaker 1: it feels like a Howard Hawks movie. And I just

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Speaker 1: associate those movies with Carrie Grant and Katherine Hepburn because

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Speaker 1: he did bringing up baby with her. Anyways, so this

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Speaker 1: was your first time watching.

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Speaker 2: This was my first time watching it. I wasn't super

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Speaker 2: thrilled with it at the top. I generally like Carrie

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Speaker 2: Grant movies. Say, he's probably my favorite actor of that era, sure,

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Speaker 2: because he's sort of the only one who I know

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Speaker 2: about other than Gene Kelly. Jimmy Stewart.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I like Geen Kelly, you do, but you hate

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Stewart.

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Speaker 2: I hate Jimmy Stewart.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Honestly, I think that you have slowly moved me

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Speaker 1: against Jimmy Stewart. Yes, yeah, there I said it.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're welcome. But anyway, I generally like Cary Grant movies.

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Speaker 2: This is not one of the ones I care for

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Speaker 2: very much, partly because his character is despicable. I think,

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Speaker 2: I mean, we'll have an interesting discussion about this movie,

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Speaker 2: but it just wasn't quite for me. What about you, Jamie,

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Speaker 2: what's your relationship with the movie?

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Speaker 1: So interestingly, and I feel like this is just because

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Speaker 1: this show has been on for so long that we're

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Speaker 1: running out of genuine favorite movies to cover. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I originally picked this as a birthday pick for the Matreon,

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Speaker 1: not because it's one of my favorite movies. This is

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Speaker 1: only my second time seeing it, but because I saw

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Speaker 1: it in theaters last year and I was not watching

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Speaker 1: it critically. I was just kind of letting it wash

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Speaker 1: over me and was like, Wow, that movie was I mean,

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Speaker 1: I also thought maybe I'd seen it in film school.

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Speaker 1: I didn't. I have seen like a couple Howard Hawk's

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Speaker 1: movie before and seen Bringing Up Baby. We've covered gentlemen

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Speaker 1: preferred blondes on this very show, so you know, I

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Speaker 1: sort of assumed that I that I'd seen this before.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't, and I kind of I mean, it's interesting

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Speaker 1: because I think where I generally come down on this

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Speaker 1: movie is I really enjoyed seeing it in theaters. I

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Speaker 1: really enjoyed seeing it with an audience. It was really

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Speaker 1: fun listening to jokes written eighty five years ago still

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Speaker 1: play in a theatrical setting. Like I was very taken

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Speaker 1: in by the experience. I was with people who I love,

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Speaker 1: who loved the movie. It was like it was a blast.

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Speaker 1: And then upon leaving the movie. I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: I really love the performances in this movie, and I

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Speaker 1: think that it is like a tricky movie for us

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Speaker 1: to talk about, which is why I want to try,

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Speaker 1: because it, you know, I think, fails as a feminist

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Speaker 1: story but succeeds as a satire, and if a few

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Speaker 1: elements were adjusted, it could be successful as both. And

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Speaker 1: then I did some more reading and it sort of

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Speaker 1: brought back this like latent. You know, early film school

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Speaker 1: talks of the Hoxian woman, and I don't. I honestly

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Speaker 1: don't remember. Listeners, you may be a better authority on

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Speaker 1: this than we were if we talked about the tropes

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Speaker 1: that are associated with the Hoxian woman, like the one

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Speaker 1: of the like a guy's girl, kind of like the

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Speaker 1: original guys girl in film tropes. But I don't know. Like,

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Speaker 1: I think this movie is a super fun watch. I

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Speaker 1: think as a satire it's like really successful and I

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Speaker 1: enjoy letting it wash over me. But if you are

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Speaker 1: watching it for a feminist hero, unfortunately you do not

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Speaker 1: get one, which is which is frustrating. It almost like

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Speaker 1: reminds me of I feel like these kind of like

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Speaker 1: Hoxyan women are in conversation with so many other tropes

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Speaker 1: around women that come up later in film, of like

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Speaker 1: the girl power girl who is doing all the cool stuff,

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Speaker 1: is saying all this stuff. There is the illusion of agency,

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Speaker 1: but it like collapses under scrutiny of like, well, no,

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Speaker 1: she is still very much being heavily manipulated by the

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Speaker 1: male protagonist or by the patriarchal system on the whole.

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Speaker 1: It's so tricky and it's like also quite evil to

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Speaker 1: loop in this brutal manipulation of Hildy with something that

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Speaker 1: she appears to be very good at and loves, which

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Speaker 1: is drill like it's just it's I don't know. It'll

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Speaker 1: be an interesting discussion for sure, because I'm not like

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Speaker 1: super attached to Like, I won't defend this movie. I

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Speaker 1: won't go to the map for it, but I do

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Speaker 1: understand why people still watch it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Yeah. Hmm, well let's get into it,

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Speaker 2: how we Alrighty, here is the recap, and I'll place

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Speaker 2: the content warning for a brief kind of mentioned slash

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Speaker 2: discussion of suicide. We open on the busy office of

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Speaker 2: the morning Post newspaper from what city I can't tell,

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Speaker 2: not New York, somewhere else ever, heard of somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: No me either.

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Speaker 2: We meet Hildy played by Rosalind Russell, who is there

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Speaker 2: to see her her ex husband, Walter played by Kerry Grant.

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Speaker 2: He is the editor in chief of the newspaper which

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Speaker 2: Hildy used to write for until she quit, no longer

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Speaker 2: wanting to be in the newspaper business right.

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Speaker 1: Unclear why, because it's like this is where it gets

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Speaker 1: so fascinating already, where it's like she's like, it's corrupt,

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Speaker 1: and then you look at how they do business and

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh, yeah, true. But then you're like, but

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Speaker 1: that's but that's not why. She actually loves being corrupt.

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Speaker 1: It's her favorite.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she doesn't mind it all.

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Speaker 1: These two are just like there is something interesting about

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Speaker 1: watching two characters that you're like, hmm. These characters are

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Speaker 1: both kind of you're.

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Speaker 2: Evil, and they deserve each other.

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Speaker 1: They found each other and they're really going to like

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Speaker 1: win a pulis or saying something very fucked up someday,

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Speaker 1: very true.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So Hildy goes to see Walter. They talk about

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Speaker 2: their relationship, why it didn't work out. Then he plays

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Speaker 2: a little trick to try to get Hildy to come

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Speaker 2: back and work for him again, because he's always tricking people,

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Speaker 2: double crossing people, manipulating people, doing sneaky and shady stuff

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Speaker 2: to get what he.

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Speaker 1: Wants in life and at work.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and Hildy is like, I'm not gonna come back

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Speaker 2: and work for you. And if you're trying to get

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Speaker 2: back together with me, I'm not doing that either. I'm engaged,

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Speaker 2: I have a fiance and I'm getting married tomorrow. And

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Speaker 2: he's like, damn, that sucks.

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Speaker 1: And then it's just like your first hint that something

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Speaker 1: is amiss is the fact that she's like, and I

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Speaker 1: need to do this in person, and you're like, no,

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Speaker 1: you don't, No, you don't. This could have been an email,

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Speaker 1: you know this. Yeah, why didn't she email him? That's

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Speaker 1: what that's us. This is our twenty fourteen feminist critique.

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Speaker 1: She should have texted him, Okay, So that's weird. I

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Speaker 1: also feel like there is a coding specifically during well

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Speaker 1: not even specifically during this, like throughout romantic comedies that

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Speaker 1: if someone if the like alternate romantic interest, is like

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Speaker 1: an accountant or works in insurance, he is fundamentally unworthy

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Speaker 1: of love. I think they're like this this trope carries

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Speaker 1: through the nineties weirdly.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think there's like a career coded thing and

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Speaker 2: then also a personality thing where if.

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Speaker 1: Yes, were you kind right, if you're like you don't

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Speaker 1: deserve if you're romantic and sweet, or on the flip

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Speaker 1: side of it, like the other end of the spectrum,

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Speaker 1: if you're pure evil a la cal Hockley from Titanic

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Speaker 1: right right. There are exceptions, but it's like I just

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Speaker 1: moments ago listeners tested negative for COVID, but I have

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Speaker 1: been a part of a COVID movie club consisting of

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Speaker 1: me and my boyfriend. Who else who has COVID? And

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Speaker 1: okay really exclusive? But we watched Pretty Woman for the

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Speaker 1: first time last night. I'd never seen it, and I

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Speaker 1: mean we that's been a request on this show for years.

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Speaker 1: We've just been waiting for the right guess, the right moment.

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Speaker 1: But I just you know, it's so like the Richard

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Speaker 1: gear character, and Pretty Woman also like a very fundamentally

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Speaker 1: evil capitalist, yes, who like makes one good choice, and

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Speaker 1: then you know it's just like so bizarre. It reminds

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Speaker 1: like the Tom Hanks Jeff Bezos character. And you've got

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Speaker 1: male and you're like, we have to be rooting for

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Speaker 1: someone who's like I guess that. The thing with with

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Speaker 1: Cal Hockley is he's despicable, but he's not charming and

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Speaker 1: the whole like it's like if you have less RIZ

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Speaker 1: than the other guy. I mean you could say he's

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Speaker 1: not try.

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Speaker 2: I mean Billy Zane is trying, right, Cal, Yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 2: he's cow.

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Speaker 1: Is like a phony, and I feel like it reads

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Speaker 1: to people who are not millionaires. Sure, yeah, but it's

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Speaker 1: just like it's a RIZ contest. It doesn't matter what

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Speaker 1: Carry Grant's values are, He's going to have more RIZ

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Speaker 1: than the other guy, because that's like Cary Grant, right, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in any case, she is engaged to a

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Speaker 2: different man now. Walter is clearly disappointed, but he wants

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Speaker 2: to meet her fiance. Bruce, an insurance salesman.

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Speaker 1: Parentheses will be fucked over and arrested forty times because

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Speaker 1: fuck him.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean insurance is a scam, so.

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Speaker 1: It definitely is.

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Speaker 2: But I don't feel feel bad.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the job is coded as quote unquote boring,

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Speaker 1: not like corrupt, because it's like Carrie Grant is corrupt

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Speaker 1: as hell, Like, yeah, that's why they love each other

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Speaker 1: because they're both. I mean, she's a less corrupt reporter

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Speaker 1: than the rest of them, but that's like grading on

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Speaker 1: a curve exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So Walter insists on taking them out to lunch,

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Speaker 2: where he learns that Hildy and Bruce are taking a

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Speaker 2: train later that day to move to Albany Forever.

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Speaker 1: Which does, with all due respect to my Albany heads,

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Speaker 1: which does sound really really unpleasant. Yeah, wouldn't be me,

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Speaker 1: That's all I'll say.

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Speaker 2: So Walter keeps trying to concoct a scheme to get

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Speaker 2: Hildy to stay, and he's talking about this unfolding news

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Speaker 2: story that he wants her to cover about a man

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Speaker 2: named Earl Williams who shot and killed a and who

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Speaker 2: is about to be hanged for it, but how his

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Speaker 2: life could be saved if the newspaper interviews him and

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Speaker 2: publishes the interview to show that he's not of sound mind,

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Speaker 2: which would get him off the hook because he has

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Speaker 2: been declared sane by a doctor. So if there's like

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Speaker 2: contradicting evidence to support he is not, you know, quote

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Speaker 2: unquote saying, they could save his life. Although there's going

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Speaker 2: to be another psychiatric evaluation of this man Earl Williams

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Speaker 2: right before the hanging, so keep that in mind, everybody. Now,

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Speaker 2: Hildy agrees to take the later train so that she

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Speaker 2: can do this interview with Earl Williams in exchange for

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Speaker 2: Walter buying life insurance from Bruce so that Bruce will

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Speaker 2: get a sizeable commission. And Walter agrees to this, and

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Speaker 2: he also names Hildy his beneficiary for the life insurance policy.

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Speaker 1: And we're like, also, he's like topless in the same

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Speaker 1: like he's just like, it's so weird, Like this, okay,

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Speaker 1: we have not renamed it in five years, but this

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Speaker 1: feels like a Boushemi test thing to me, where it's like,

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Speaker 1: if it's not Carrie Grant getting like shirtless doctors examinations

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Speaker 1: in the room with this other guy and like doing

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Speaker 1: all this stuff that is clearly designed to make him

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Speaker 1: feel threatened and uncomfortable, if it's not like the sexiest

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Speaker 1: movie star in the entire world conventionally doing that, it

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Speaker 1: is like more transparently villainous behavior. But if like, because

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Speaker 1: it's Kry Grant, it's easier to sell in the time

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Speaker 1: it comes out like, well, it's kind of funny because

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Speaker 1: it's carry Grant, right.

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Speaker 2: And all these dames watching the movie, we're so distracted by.

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Speaker 1: His nipplesmaa humana.

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Speaker 2: Right, So anyway this is happening. Then there's it's like

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Speaker 2: something something certified check that Bruce has to put in

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Speaker 2: the lining of his hat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of YadA YadA with the money moneys.

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Speaker 1: I had to google. I'd googled bravely. I googled some stuff.

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Speaker 1: Whoa not about the money transfers, but about the the

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Speaker 1: nature of like what Earl Williams was listening to in

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Speaker 1: the park. I had to like check what that was.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So there's another thing about five hundred dollars in cash,

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Speaker 2: which Hildy and Bruce have, and he gives that to Hildy, right,

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Speaker 2: And it's all because she suspects someone aka Walter and

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Speaker 2: his minions are going to try to like rob Bruce,

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Speaker 2: which does keep happening. Meanwhile, Hildy goes to see Earl

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Speaker 2: Williams at the county jail. The story with him is

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Speaker 2: that he had lost his job, tried to get another

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Speaker 2: one was not able to. He was living on the

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Speaker 2: streets and one night he found himself with a gun

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Speaker 2: in his hands and he shot a cop, claiming it

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Speaker 2: was an accident.

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Speaker 1: Which the movie we'll get to goes out of the

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Speaker 1: way to say it was a black cop, yes, which

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Speaker 1: we'll get to, right, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so Hildy, while she's interviewing him, is like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: you heard a speech in the park about production for use.

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Speaker 2: You know how objects have use, and a gun's purpose

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Speaker 2: or use is to be shot, So that's why you

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Speaker 2: shot the gun. And he's like, yeah, exactly, and the

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Speaker 2: girl right, And so Hildy writes up this interview to

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Speaker 2: be published in the Morning Post, which again makes him

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Speaker 2: seem not quite of sound mind, but it's to save

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Speaker 2: his life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So she's lying for good question mark where she

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Speaker 1: is like basically saying he heard a socialist talk in

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Speaker 1: the park that confused him so much that he shot

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Speaker 1: a cop, right, and that's why he can't be yeah, executed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a.

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Speaker 1: Stretch, but you know, the pros from what we heard

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Speaker 1: was pretty compelling, right.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So then we also meet a woman named Molly Molloy,

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Speaker 2: a friend of sorts of Earl Williams. There's this group

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Speaker 2: of reporters at the Criminal Court's Office who have been

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Speaker 2: kind of like harassing this woman. They made up a

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Speaker 2: bunch of stories about how she's like desperately in love

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Speaker 2: with Earl in order to sell papers. In reality, she

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Speaker 2: barely knows him, but it's that she like showed him

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Speaker 2: kindness one night, and she's trying to advocate for him

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Speaker 2: to not be executed.

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Speaker 1: And which would be impossible unless you were in love

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Speaker 1: with someone.

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Speaker 2: Right according to all of these men. Yes, Hildy leaves

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Speaker 2: and meets up with Bruce, who has been arrested for

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Speaker 2: steel a watch. But it seems like he was framed

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Speaker 2: because Walter has a mister Lovejoy type of undertaker of

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Speaker 2: a man servant, if you will, this guy named Louis

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Speaker 2: who frames people for stealing expensive accessories, just like how

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Speaker 2: Cal framed Jack for stealing the heart of the Ocean.

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Speaker 1: A wild guy to have on retainer.

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Speaker 2: Yes, truly, and so Hildy finds this out and she

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Speaker 2: calls Walter to be like you double crossing, slimy, no good,

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Speaker 2: So and so I never want to see you again, right,

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Speaker 2: And she rips up the story and is about to leave,

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Speaker 2: but just then Earl Williams escapes from the county jail

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Speaker 2: during his final psychiatric evaluation before the hanging, and so

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Speaker 2: there's all this hubbub and a bunch of reporters are

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Speaker 2: trying to break the story of his escape. Hildy chases

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Speaker 2: down a guy named Cooley. I think he's the warden

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Speaker 2: of the jail.

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Speaker 1: I think. So it's really honestly hard for me to tell,

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Speaker 1: but it is really fun to watch hilde tackle his ass.

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Speaker 1: That was, like, I just I remember, like the first

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Speaker 1: time I watched it. I don't know, there are certain

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Speaker 1: subversive like I just was not prepared to see a

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Speaker 1: woman in a movie this old be that active, I know, right,

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Speaker 1: and like, but she like takes his ass down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like linebacker style tackles his ass.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she Travis Kelsey. I don't know what position he plays.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she potentially Travis Kelsey's him. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: We don't know, and we're not gonna look at him.

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Speaker 1: Not that kind of show. It's not that kind of show.

356
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Speaker 2: No. Anyway, she's trying to get the story about how

357
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Speaker 2: Earl Williams escapes, and she does, and she relays this

358
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Speaker 2: story to Walter. She also wants to be reimbursed for

359
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Speaker 2: the four hundred and fifty dollars she spent bribing, and

360
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Speaker 2: Walter does pay her back, but with counterfeit money rats

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Speaker 2: and then he frames Bruce and gets him arrested again.

362
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Speaker 2: He just keeps trying to put Bruce in jail and

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Speaker 2: it's working, but keep in mind the rule of threes.

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Speaker 1: It's not brusus last time, and no it's not.

365
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Speaker 2: Then there are some scenes and I think this movie

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Speaker 2: is a bit guilty of getting too caught up in

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Speaker 2: the like logistics and plottiness of this case where it

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Speaker 2: should be I think, focusing more on Hildy and her

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Speaker 2: like skills as a reporter and journalists and stuff.

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Speaker 1: I agree with that. I feel like there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of like I mean, and I know that it's relevant

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Speaker 1: to the satire they're trying to get across, which is

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Speaker 1: like very rooted in the time, but yeah, it almost

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Speaker 1: feels like, I don't know, I feel like there's the

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Speaker 1: same with like a lot of classic novels where you're

376
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Speaker 1: like in the middle of like a really compelling story

377
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Speaker 1: and then it just switches to like agricultural law for

378
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Speaker 1: like forty pages. You're just like what you're like That

379
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: happens in a lot of Fressian novels. You're just like

380
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 1: reading about like a marriage that's failing, and then they're like,

381
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Speaker 1: and here's what that has to do with agrarian law

382
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Speaker 1: in eighteen forty, And you're like, I'm sorry, that's none

383
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Speaker 1: of my business. That's not what I'm here for.

384
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Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's right around here in the movie that

385
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Speaker 2: there are scenes where there's the mayor, I think, the sheriff.

386
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Speaker 2: I think a bunch of men are talking about a

387
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Speaker 2: reprieve for Earl. I think this is like a pardon

388
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Speaker 2: and this guy named Joe Pettybone comes in to deliver

389
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Speaker 2: the reprieve that would get now Earl off the hook.

390
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Speaker 1: Now this guy is an MVP of the movie. For me, agree,

391
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Speaker 1: it is unreal how and then I had to like

392
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Speaker 1: look the actor up and like, was what a thrilling? Like?

393
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: Looking this actor up really delivers? Did you look him

394
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Speaker 1: up at all? No?

395
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 2: I didn't.

396
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: Okay, For first of all, he's Sneezy the dwarf. Whoa.

397
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Speaker 1: He's like he was in so many Like he was

398
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Speaker 1: a prolific famous character actor of this time. He was

399
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Speaker 1: in something I know I had to watch in college,

400
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: Laureln Hardy's The Music Box. He's the guy who hates Pianos.

401
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: He was in The Great Dictator this same year, like

402
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 1: he was just in a lot of hit movies, and

403
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Speaker 1: he got his comic timing is so good. He's so funny,

404
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: and then he comes back and everyone's like, I don't

405
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Speaker 1: know that. That was my favorite part of seeing this

406
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: movie in person was that when he comes back at

407
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Speaker 1: the end spoiler alert. Although it doesn't really make that

408
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: much of a difference, but he comes back at the

409
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Speaker 1: end and everyone's like, whoa, because he's so awesome. He's

410
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Speaker 1: such a good actor.

411
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Speaker 2: Great and Joe Pettibone is a great character name m hm. Anyway,

412
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Speaker 2: he comes in to deliver this reprieve to the Mayor,

413
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Speaker 2: but the may who wants Earl Williams to be executed,

414
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: bribes Joe Pettibone not to actually like hand over this pardon.

415
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 2: Then Earl Williams shows up at the Criminal Court's office

416
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Speaker 2: with a gun. The only other person there at the

417
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 2: moment is Hildy, and she's able to get the gun

418
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Speaker 2: away from him. She offers to help him, and she

419
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 2: hides him in a roll top desk and then calls

420
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 2: Walter and Bruce to let them know what's going on.

421
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Speaker 2: Shortly after a bunch of people show up, first Molly Molloy,

422
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 2: then all of those crime reporters that we've been seeing

423
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: throughout the movie, then Bruce's mother, and they're all yelling

424
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: about where's Earl, where's this guy? Yeah, and the reporters

425
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 2: are bullying Molly. So she jumps out of a window

426
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Speaker 2: to kill herself.

427
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Speaker 1: It's weird. I've seen this like alternatively described as like

428
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 1: an attempt to kill herself. I've also seen it as

429
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: an attempt to escape the situation. Because she's jumping from

430
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Speaker 1: a window. That isn't far. I don't buy that, but

431
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: I just wanted to mention that I've repeatedly seen that

432
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: moment characterized that way. Interesting.

433
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I interpret it as she was intending to

434
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: die by suicide.

435
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: That was my original assumption as well. I don't know

436
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: where that's coming from. I don't know if that's like

437
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: something that's noted in the script. I don't know if

438
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: that's like something from the source material. And I agree

439
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: with you. I just wanted to mention that I saw

440
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: it mentioned that way. I don't know what that is

441
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: rooted in. Exactly interesting.

442
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 2: Either way, we never see her again. We don't know

443
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: what happens to her really.

444
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: And the movie does not care, which is too bad

445
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: because what the fuck?

446
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, So this causes a bit of a distraction,

447
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 2: and right then Walter shows up with his Mignon Louis,

448
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: who kidnaps Bruce's mother and takes her away. So now

449
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: it's just Walter in Hildy and Earl hiding in the desk. Yeah,

450
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: Hildy wants to leave to get Bruce out of prison

451
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: so that they can take the train to Albany, but

452
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 2: Walter convinces Hildy to stay and help him break this story,

453
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 2: which is also about government corruption in the mayor's office

454
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 2: or something. These details were a little foggy for me.

455
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: In any case, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity

456
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: that would like make her career, so Hildy is convinced.

457
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: She starts writing the story. Then her fiance Bruce shows

458
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 2: up to be like are you coming with me or what?

459
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: And she's like nah. Turns out I do want to

460
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: be in the newspaper business. So he's like all right,

461
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: bye and he leaves a few moments later, after she

462
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: sees Walter trick and double crossed yet another person to

463
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 2: get what he wants. Hildy's like, wait a minute, what

464
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: have I done? I should be on that train with Bruce.

465
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 2: Then she finds out that Bruce's mother was maybe killed

466
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 2: in a car accident, and she feels responsible.

467
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: I also feel like the joke of that scene is

468
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: that she is not upset about her almost mother in

469
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: law potentially getting hit. She is upset about herself. Yeah, yeah,

470
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: which iconically selfish character for.

471
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: Sure, and that's who she is as a character. Again,

472
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 2: she and Walter deserve each other.

473
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: It's such a myra they But I also still feel

474
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: like Hildy's get getting a raw into the deal, you know.

475
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: But whatever that's I'll tell they're dead.

476
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: They're fictional characters. Then a bunch of men storm into

477
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: the room, possibly the sheriff. I don't I can't keep

478
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 2: track of any of these people, the crime reporter. Probably.

479
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: They're demanding to know what's going on. They suspect that

480
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: Hildy knows where Earl Williams is and they start manhandling her.

481
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: So she pulls out the gun that she took from

482
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 2: Earl and the sheriff is like, wait a minute, that's

483
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 2: my gun that Earl Williams stole. From me, so you

484
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 2: must know where he is. And then Bruce's mother shows up.

485
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,479
Speaker 2: She is not dead. She tells the sheriff that Hildy

486
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 2: and Walter are hiding Earl right there in the office.

487
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: So they find Earl, and Hildy and Walter are arrested.

488
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: Poor Earl has almost suffer suffocated inside of the desk,

489
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: which I do think is like, really, I don't know,

490
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: we'll get to like the commentary on journalism in this movie,

491
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: but like, you know, could there be a clearer slash

492
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: in like a screwball comedy, way funnier example of how

493
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: little the actual subject of the story matters to them

494
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: than the fact that they nearly let him suffocate inside

495
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: of a desk.

496
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, So in any case, Hildy and Walter

497
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 2: are arrested for harboring a murderer. But then that guy

498
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: Joe Pettybone shows up again.

499
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: And everyone's like, who give him an oscar? He's so good?

500
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: Oh god, what an amazing and then he kills it again.

501
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: He steals the whole damn scene once again.

502
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: For sure, because what happens here He has decided to

503
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: refuse the mayor's bribe.

504
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: Because of something his wife told him to do. Yes. Yeah,

505
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: missus pettybone feminist only feminist hero in the movie never

506
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: meet her.

507
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely, He's there to deliver this reprieve pardon thing after all,

508
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: and to not accept the mayor's bribe. So now Hildy

509
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: and Walter know about this bribery attempt and that the

510
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 2: mayor wanted Earl Williams to be because he figured it

511
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: would get him reelected. That information lets Hildy and Walter

512
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: off the hook. They are unarrested, and then Walter tries

513
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: to kind of show Hildy away, saying that she should

514
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: catch that train and go be with Bruce, and she's like, well,

515
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: I want to stay and write the story. And so

516
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: she seems disappointed that Walter doesn't want her there. And

517
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 2: then Bruce calls he has been arrested for a third

518
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: time trying to spend the counterfeit money that they got

519
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 2: from Walter, which makes Hildy realize that Walter does love her.

520
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: He was trying to get Bruce arrested so many times

521
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 2: because Walter's trying to actually win her back.

522
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: This is so confusing because I was like, read, they're

523
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: so messy, Like it's confused because There are analyzes of

524
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: this movie, and this is how I read it the

525
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: first time I saw it, that somehow Hildy has been

526
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: playing this game of like forty D Chess to yield

527
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: this result. But there's too many There's too many X factors,

528
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: like how could she count on the story of her

529
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: career falling into her lap at this exact moment, Like

530
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: I don't. I feel like it maybe is somewhere in

531
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: between or more likely the writers were thinking about her

532
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: motivations very hard, but like how she first of all

533
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: evil of her to be like I am willing if

534
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: it is her intention to almost get married to someone else,

535
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: to have Walter wake up and ask for her back,

536
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: which it seems like she there is some desire that

537
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: she wants that to happen, but she wants it to

538
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: come from her. She doesn't want to be the one

539
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: to come back to him, so she has to orchestrate this.

540
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 1: But I was like she in order to accomplish that,

541
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: she would have to be willing to ruin Bruce's life,

542
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: which she is. We know she is, yes RP. Bruce

543
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: rotting in jail for no reason. But and so even

544
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: if that's her plan, like it doesn't quite come together

545
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: as like this is a you know, I don't know,

546
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: and then he is I think he is very conniving

547
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: in all of the beats of what he does. Manipulative

548
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: stuff actually does track a little cleaner than to me.

549
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: Then what Hildy would have to do to oh for sure?

550
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 3: But she I don't know. I don't know. I don't

551
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 3: quite understand what her plan is because what if he had, like,

552
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 3: wasn't at work that day, like, what would she do?

553
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: I don't think. My read is that Hildy never has

554
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: a like, she has not premeditated trying to get back

555
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: together with Okay Walter, that she just gets duped the

556
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: way that he dupes everybody. I mean, I read it

557
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: as she was about to embark on a life that

558
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: she probably didn't actually want, but had convinced herself that

559
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: maybe I do want this, and then by being batter

560
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: in the newspaper business, she realizes, oh, I could not

561
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: actually leave this line of work in this lifestyle.

562
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: Which would be an interesting story if it wasn't orchestrated

563
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: by her conniving ex husband, right, but it's not. It's

564
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: so weird. It's such a weird movie. See, I guess

565
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: I always put like a little more. Maybe it's because

566
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: I've conniving like tried to get Ment to say things

567
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: to me via a series of tricks in the past.

568
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: I'm willing to admit that it's true. It often doesn't worry,

569
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: usually doesn't work, but if it works once or twice,

570
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: it's like it's addictive. But I guess I sort of

571
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: that because and again, this might just be like the

572
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: movie that feels like a movie of it all, But

573
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: the fact that she goes in person to me says

574
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: that she wants some reaction out of him, that she

575
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: wants to witness, because this could all be handled over

576
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: the phone, but it isn't. And the fact that she

577
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: brings Bruce with her like means that she wants him

578
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: to bear witness to some dynamic as well. Like I

579
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: don't think what she's doing is healthy or like commendable,

580
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: but I do feel like she like wants some sort

581
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: of cathartic release from having shown up. Like, I think

582
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: you're totally right that I was giving an over you know,

583
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: like planning on her part to say that she would

584
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: expect the rest to happen, that she would expect the

585
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: day to end with her her fiance in jail and

586
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: her re betrothed to her ex husband. But it did

587
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 1: feel like she went there for some sort of catharsis.

588
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that critically because again I don't

589
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: know this stuff with Bruce that's like beyond the pale.

590
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: That's fucked up to bring someone who, for all intents

591
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: and purposes, as far as we can tell, worst crime

592
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: is being boring and just like wave him around and

593
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: sort of open him up to all of this like

594
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 1: ridicule and abuse for no reason. But I do feel

595
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: like her showing up with him something's afoot.

596
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: I think she has intentions that are maybe subconscious and sure,

597
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 2: but I don't think she's actively necessary. I think it's

598
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 2: more of a passive, subconscious thing that she's going for.

599
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: I think she's I think she's brat summer.

600
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: Well, let's take a break to discuss. So the movie

601
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: ends with Hildy realizing that Walter was getting her fiance

602
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: Bruce arrested all these times because he was actually trying

603
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: to win her back, and he actually does love her,

604
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: and this is his way of showing that he loves her. Yeah, yeah,

605
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: He's like, you're right, let's get married again. This time

606
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: we will go on a honeymoon to Albany. And she's like,

607
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: sounds great, okay, bye.

608
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: And then the movie's over so wild that the whole

609
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: time all she really wanted was to go to Albany.

610
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: It's anyways, Yes, let's take a break, say, and we'll

611
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: be back in a moment. You hear h.

612
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: And we're back.

613
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: You hear you see you see. Gosh, this movie is

614
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: so weird and fun to talk about. I would like

615
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: to start, with your permission, with what I think this

616
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: movie is successful at. Okay, on a story basis. What

617
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: I think this movie is very successful at, and sometimes

618
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: at the expense of certain characters or certain story logic,

619
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: is the satire of both politics and journalism of this time.

620
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: But I also think it's very applicable to current day

621
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: politicians and journalists, kind of an evergreen thing to be like,

622
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: the media and the politicians are corrupt, yes, and that

623
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: like occasionally justice can be achieved, but usually it's a

624
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: mistake or just happens to work in one or the

625
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: other's interest. I feel like that point is illustrated very

626
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: clearly in this movie, where there's no point in the

627
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: movie we're weird because I do think that there's a

628
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: lot of movies later on, I know, if we get

629
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: into like All the President's Men and stuff like that,

630
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: that present journalism as wholesale, a noble profession that people

631
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: don't fuck up, you know, that cannot be bought, you know,

632
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: all of this stuff where you know, journalism at its core,

633
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: of course, is a noble endeavor, but it is very

634
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: often not performed that way.

635
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 2: Because it's carried out by humans, and hungman's are often

636
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: not on their best behavior.

637
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 1: Well and even more so there there's a number, I mean,

638
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: there's two super famous movies in this one year span,

639
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: like This and Citizen Kane address the you know, not

640
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: exactly yellow journalism, well, I mean Citizen Kane does, but

641
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: you know, flawed get the story versus get the truth

642
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 1: style journalism that was very prevalent in the late eighteen hundreds,

643
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: and then there was another huge bout of yellow journalism

644
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: in the twenties and thirties, which I think it's more

645
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: likely these movies pulling from with you know, how much

646
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: of the Spanish American War was fueled by bad reporting,

647
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: and that bad reporting was fueled by making sales and

648
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: competition and all this stuff that we still hear about

649
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: today because this is what happens in capitalist societies, and

650
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: the you know, fallout is normal people, which in this

651
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: movie is illustrated through Earl Williams, and that portrayal is

652
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: also flawed, but I feel like that comes across very

653
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: clearly where our romantic heroes are journalists, and so we

654
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: side with the journalists more than the politicians because we

655
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: know them better, they're hotter, we like them, for sure.

656
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: But I appreciate about this movie that it doesn't, at

657
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: least for me, it doesn't really ever make any bones

658
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: about the fact that what they're doing is not true

659
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: or like ideal. Like they are kind of two con

660
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: artists that are very fun to watch and deserve each

661
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: other because you know they're both lying and in different ways.

662
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: And that's interesting where it seems like, you know, Hildy

663
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: generally is lying in favor or at least in the

664
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: case of this story, is lying in the hopes of

665
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: achieving justice in a roundabout way. But still it's not.

666
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: No one in this movie is doing good or like

667
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: laudable reporting. They're all lying, they're all making shit up,

668
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 1: and I feel like it's yeah, it's like a direct

669
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: commentary on the state of media at this time. Also

670
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: because this movie comes out at the very beginning of

671
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: World War Two, so of course people are thinking a

672
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 1: lot about media accuracy of a war that's taking place overseas.

673
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I think that it works. And

674
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: the politicians are equally corrupt, and they try to, you know,

675
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: buy off our king and it doesn't work. And by

676
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: our King, I, of course do mean Joe petty Bone.

677
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: I do not mean Carry Grant. I mean Joe petty Bone,

678
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: the hero of the movie. Yes, you should have been

679
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: on the poster, but yeah, I mean I on that

680
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 1: level it works for me. But on a feminist level,

681
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 1: it very clearly doesn't.

682
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 2: It sure doesn't. And I've got a lot to say

683
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 2: about it, starting with a little bit of context, which

684
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 2: is that this movie was adapted from a play called

685
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: The Front Page from nineteen twenty eight that was written

686
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: by Ben Hect and Charles MacArthur, which was also adapted

687
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: into a nineteen thirty one film of the same name,

688
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: The Front Page. Those versions of the story have it

689
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: so the person who had quit their reporting job and

690
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 2: who the Carry Grant character, tries to recruit back into

691
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: the newspaper business is a man his girl. Friday gender

692
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 2: swaps it so that the reporter is a woman and

693
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: the ex wife of, you know, the editor in chief

694
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: of the newspaper. So this was a pretty significant change

695
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 2: that critics loved, audiences loved, Like this movie was a success,

696
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 2: and so it's interesting that this story introduced a woman

697
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: into the picture and it was well received. But by

698
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: doing so and writing this character in the way that

699
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 2: she's written, leads to some problems.

700
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: Yes, right, because like it sounds like an interesting choice

701
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: on it's I mean, it's weird. It's like a lot

702
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: of quote unquote gender swapped reboots of stuffing where it's like,

703
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: I see what you're going for, but it doesn't quite

704
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: come together.

705
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 2: Doesn't because what happens is she has convinced herself that

706
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 2: she no longer wants to be a reporter. She doesn't

707
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: want to work for her ex husband anymore. She has

708
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: found another man as a romantic partner, and she's going

709
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 2: to go off and live a different type of life.

710
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: So there's all these moments in the movie where people

711
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: are discussing Hildy quitting the newspaper game because she wants

712
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: to be a quote unquote woman, meaning she wants a

713
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: traditional domestic life. She wants to you know, make a home,

714
00:42:54,920 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: have babies, have like a far more traditional gender woman's life,

715
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: especially for this era, right.

716
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 1: Which seems to be like consistent with how Howard Hawks

717
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: talks about women in all of his movies, that like

718
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: the concept of woman is a job, which is like.

719
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 2: Huh, okay, yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting that

720
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: the movie is acknowledging this like traditional gender role of

721
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: what a woman is expected to do and how for

722
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: a while and then again later on or you know,

723
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 2: throughout the movie. She is subverting this expectation because in

724
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: the backstory she was a skilled reporter. This is how

725
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 2: she met Carrie Grant's character. They get married, the marriage

726
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 2: doesn't work out, and she decides, Okay, I'm gonna find

727
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 2: a more stable slash traditional situation for myself. But she

728
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,919
Speaker 2: gets kind of seduced by being a newspaper man and

729
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 2: falls back into it. And we're led to believe, based

730
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: on how the story ends, that she is getting back

731
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: together with Walter and that she will continue to be

732
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: a reporter for him. Right, So you have this story

733
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 2: now that seems like at first, it seems like it's

734
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: being set up so that like a woman is prioritizing

735
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: her career over a relationship with a man, which, as

736
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 2: we've always discussed, like, isn't inherently feminist, Like feminism is

737
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 2: all about choosing what you want for yourself and.

738
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: Right, it's all which is really muddled at this movie

739
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: because we don't it seems as if based on even

740
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: like the first conversation she has with Walter, which for

741
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: all of its flaws, I love to watch. I have

742
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: no idea how you block and act a scene like this.

743
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: It's like how the fun Like, yeah, I guess I'll

744
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: just say it. Like the performances in this movie are

745
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: just so estere to me, where I just like don't

746
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: understand how they were physically possible. Right, But in that

747
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: whole first scene, like you kind of understand why they

748
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: got together. You definitely understand why they broke up, and

749
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: it seemed at least that in their marriage, like Hildy

750
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: wanted both but was not right. And you know, in

751
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 1: the very in the way that you know you're led

752
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: to believe it. You know, long after this movie comes out,

753
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's almost a radical choice that this

754
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: movie presents that you could have one or the other. Usually,

755
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: you know, and in movies that come out ten years later.

756
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's because this is like

757
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: a wartime movie, that it's like a more palatable concept

758
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: for a woman to be a working professional, and the

759
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: fact that I'm sure that it makes it seem like

760
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: it's more palatable for her to be a working professional

761
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: because she's married to someone who's doing the same thing,

762
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: which you see a lot, But it seems like she's

763
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: always wanted both and is being forced to pick one

764
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: or the other and felt diminishing returns with her career

765
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: because of how her husband treated her and also her

766
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: opinions on how dirty a lot of the journalism was,

767
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 1: and so she's choosing quote unquote the other thing, which

768
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: is not fair but probably reflective of the time. But

769
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: it just seems like she, you know, she dumped him

770
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: because of his inflexibility to have both with her, which

771
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 1: is a great reason to get divorced.

772
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 2: True And again, if what she in her heart of

773
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 2: hearts once is to be with Bruce and to it

774
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: seems like she would be. She's describing her future life

775
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 2: as though she will be a homemaker and if you know, again,

776
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 2: if that's what she wants, great, But there's this component

777
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 2: of this movie where you have all these men being like,

778
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 2: that's not what you actually want. You're a newspaper mayan.

779
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 2: Just accept it. And so there's this idea of like, oh,

780
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: a woman doesn't actually know what she wants and men

781
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: are telling her what she does want, and they turn

782
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: out to be right, and it turns out that she

783
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 2: was tricking herself. And this is something that women are

784
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 2: so often accused of and assumed to not know what

785
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: women want with their romantic or personal life, what women

786
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: want with their career, with their own bodies, like yeah,

787
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 2: and so that was very frustrating that all of these

788
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 2: men who kept telling her like, you're never gonna succeed

789
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 2: in that lifestyle of like a domestic homemaker, you're in

790
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: the newspaper business. Just accept it.

791
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: And the ending is left fairly ambiguous as to what

792
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: I meant. And I would guess, based on what we

793
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: know abou him that Walter probably hasn't moved on that,

794
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: and that will be an unfortunate argument taking place in

795
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: front of Niagara Falls. But yeah, like I one of

796
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: the first things I wrote down, you know, like why

797
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: this movie critically, it is like all of the internal

798
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: logic of their relationship is based on no means yes,

799
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: And her coming to you know, for the divorce is

800
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: actually like a test and her you know and like

801
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: taking in you know, human weirdness and blah blah blah.

802
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, the logic of the relationship depends on

803
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,760
Speaker 1: when she says I don't want to be a reporter,

804
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: I don't want to be married to you, that she

805
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 1: actually means try and change my mind, and you know,

806
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: like and keep trying. And I mean she mentions repeated

807
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: like and it's like alluded to that he's heavily stalking her.

808
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: He's calling her NonStop or something. She is like actively

809
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: shielding her present life because he doesn't know Bruce exists,

810
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, and it's like she's built this whole life

811
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: without him, and so you know, on its face, it's

812
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: just like he's again and if you BOUSHEMI test it,

813
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: It's like he's stalking her. He is not respecting her boundaries.

814
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: He is assuming his conception of her is more accurate

815
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: than what she is telling him to his face, like

816
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: it's just the whole relationship depends on him hearing no

817
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: and assuming yes, and then the fact that the logic

818
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: of that ends up to be basically correct is very

819
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: clearly demonstrated that this movie was men top to bottom

820
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: because it's like a fantasy. I feel like it's like

821
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: a you know, sort of a traditionally masculine fantasy that

822
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: no means yes and that your wife who divorces you

823
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: secretly wants to, you know, like test you and doesn't

824
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: actually you know, blah blah blah blah, and wants to

825
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: do exactly what you want her to do. And the

826
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: fact that this story ends, which you know, I know

827
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: is accurate to the time most likely, but that you know,

828
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: this still ends with she's his girlfrida. She is his employee,

829
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: his girl, Yeah, his girl, but like that's like his

830
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: go to reporter. She's his employee still, and so it's

831
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: just like she is. I don't understand other than a

832
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: re affirmation that I'm sure he's lied about the thing

833
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: is like, I don't know. I just feel for Hildy,

834
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: even though she is quite evil and like Bruce just

835
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: catches so many strays. That is, I feel for Bruce

836
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: big time. I'm like, buddy, buddy, he'll be fine or not.

837
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: Maye where he's in jail forever. Uh.

838
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 2: He seems to get out and go off to Albany's movie.

839
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,919
Speaker 1: Gel, but like, I don't know, It's just I feel

840
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,399
Speaker 1: like he's duped her yet again. I mean, he has

841
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: duped her yet again. And I don't think that we

842
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: have any reason to believe that Walter wouldn't just say

843
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,439
Speaker 1: anything he needed to to get what he wanted, which

844
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: is to get Hildy back. I don't believe that he's

845
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: like and yes, I am fully supportive of you being

846
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: a mother and a journalist, Like I just I just

847
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 1: don't see it.

848
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 2: You know, it would be one thing if over the

849
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 2: course of this movie he realizes he needed to be

850
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: more flexible and less horrible as a person and more

851
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 2: respectful of her wishes and boundaries and stuff like that.

852
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 2: But he doesn't learn anything, and instead we just you know,

853
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,720
Speaker 2: see him manipulating and exploiting and deceiving people. He makes

854
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 2: sexist remarks, he makes xenophobic, anti immigrant remarks, He threatens

855
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 2: a woman with violence on the phone, He makes ablest remarks.

856
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 2: You know, it's just the list goes on for all

857
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 2: of the horrible things.

858
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,320
Speaker 1: Do I expect more from a nineteen forty movie. No, However,

859
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's just so tricky too, because it's like,

860
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 1: I don't think that we're supposed to believe that these

861
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: are morally upstanding people, but because they're played by the

862
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: most charismatic movie stars of the day, you're still like

863
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: kind of permissive.

864
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 2: You're rooting for You're meant to root for.

865
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: Them exactly exactly, and you know that's a complicate especially

866
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: when it's a movie for adults. It's like, yeah, you

867
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: can root for someone who kind of sucks because you

868
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: know your brain is fully developed you can handle it.

869
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: But but it is, you know, it is telling that

870
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: it's like you're told visually with time, with who's cast

871
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: with all this stuff, who is more worthy of being

872
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: rooted for when it's just like Bruce for sweep Beruce.

873
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 1: This this brings me to the idea of the hawksy

874
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: and Woman, which I'm pretty sure we did not discuss

875
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, although.

876
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 2: That was eighty four years ago, so we don't.

877
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: It's true a movie I remember quite liking. I haven't

878
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: seen it in a while. Uh, and one that I

879
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,720
Speaker 1: definitely feel like falls in under the category of Howard

880
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 1: hawks being like their job is woman because they're like

881
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,839
Speaker 1: almost women in like a I don't know, they're just

882
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: they talk to each other like, I mean, like friends,

883
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: but also like weirdly like they're doing a job and

884
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: the job is a woman. We're right.

885
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: Were they dancers? I don't remember that movie at all.

886
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: I remember them being on like a cruise ship at

887
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: one point, but yeah, I could not say anything else

888
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 2: about it.

889
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: That's okay, let me pull up. So there was a

890
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: great piece I read in Little White Lies Rip. I

891
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: believe that sort of unpacks this trope and why it

892
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: can be very frustrating for you know, feminists who watches

893
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: movies and feel like oh oh oh, because it's like

894
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 1: for nineteen forty Hilty does feel pretty remarkable in terms

895
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: of what you get. On the surface. She is very active.

896
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: She's like nagging the hell out of any man she

897
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 1: comes into contact with. She very often gets the upper hand.

898
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: She's an active reporter. She tackles someone like stuff that

899
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: you're not used to seeing, or it is stuff that

900
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: at least that I wouldn't expect in a movie from

901
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: nineteen forty where you know, and into the fifties and

902
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 1: on and on, where it's like you sort of expect

903
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: a degree of traditional wives and mothers, passivity and hysteria

904
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: quote unquote that you don't get with Hilthy and I

905
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: feel like it's almost like you're You're like, oh, then

906
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 1: she must be a feminist character. How Yeah. This is

907
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: a great piece by Sarah Cleary called who is the

908
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: Hawxyan Woman. I'd like to share a couple passages from it.

909
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: That also explains where this term came from, because the

910
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 1: term of the hoxy and woman didn't exist until nineteen

911
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: seventy one. So from this piece. Film critic Naomi Wise,

912
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: who coined the term Hoxyan woman in nineteen seventy one,

913
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 1: argued that in Hawks' cinema, quote, good girl and bad

914
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: girl are fused into a single heroic heroine unquote. This

915
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 1: assertion is certainly true of Bonnie, a different movie, whose

916
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: worldliness and irreverence might have easily marked her as a

917
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,959
Speaker 1: fallen woman. In another film of the nineteen thirties, upon

918
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 1: her arrival in fog shrouded Baranka, she isn't at all

919
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: scandalized by the sexy dancing she happens upon in the

920
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 1: down and Dirty saloon. Instead, she sings along with the

921
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: band and shoots the dancers a cheeky aok hand gesture.

922
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: Despite the customary mid Atlantic accent, She's assault of the

923
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: earth girl from Brooklyn, moving on in the piece a

924
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: little bit. It's endings like this talking about the ending

925
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: of His Girl Friday, which usually put the kebash on

926
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: reading Hawks's heroines as feminist figures, tempting as those readings

927
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 1: may be. Quote, it's been said like there's a new

928
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 1: women's lib unquote, Hawks told a German documentary crew in

929
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven. But they don't talk as much as

930
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 1: the people today do. Despite this characterization, Hawks's leading ladies

931
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: are usually rather for both articulate and witty, none more

932
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 1: so as Rosalind Russell and His Girl Friday. His Girl

933
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: Friday is frustrating when viewed from a feminist's perspective, in

934
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: that it comes tantalizingly close to being a feminist work.

935
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: Russell caughts a thoroughly modern silhouette, and one gets the

936
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: sense that Hawks sincerely believes that she's a tough nut

937
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 1: who belongs in a tough business. She ought to be there.

938
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,439
Speaker 1: He does, not, however, trust her to make her own decisions.

939
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 1: She continually asserts and reasserts that she wants to quit

940
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,760
Speaker 1: journalism to settle down with her new dul fiance, Bruce,

941
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 1: but Walter wants her back in his newsroom. Not to

942
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: mention his marital bed. Grant plays Walter so irresistibly, and

943
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: his chemistry with Russell is so sparky that one hardly

944
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: notices quite how cruel his manipulation of Hilty really is. Moreover,

945
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: we want to see Hildy' scuffle and snoop her way

946
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: to a big story. If we squint, it almost looks

947
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 1: like emancipation. The piece goes on, I would I would

948
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,720
Speaker 1: recommend checking it out. But what the Hoxy and woman

949
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: kind of boils down to that really reminded me of

950
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: many movies we've covered that feel like kind of a

951
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 1: feminist bait and switch over the years, is that Hoxy

952
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: and women are generally guys girls. Which is Hilty to

953
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,320
Speaker 1: a tea you know she's to some you know she

954
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: is She's a woman who is successful in a world

955
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 1: of men. She can hang with the guys, She can

956
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: walk into the room of like crooked journalists and say

957
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 1: like the boy, and she is accepted. She is respected

958
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 1: in this world, which is what is remarkable about her

959
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: in the opinion of the writer and the director, But

960
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: there's no follow through on like what is she like

961
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: with other women? We get very little and we get

962
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 1: again more than zero, which was surprising to me, but

963
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: like it's just very like proto guy's girl stuff. And

964
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: at the end she is still at the you know,

965
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 1: operating at the whims of a man in a patriarchal system,

966
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: whether she realizes that or not. So it's like the

967
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,479
Speaker 1: illusion of feminism. It gets so like I totally get

968
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: because when I got when I walked away from this movie,

969
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: I was like, was that And then when you see

970
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: the end, you're like, oh, never mind, uh right.

971
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 2: No, But I totally agree that if you're watching this

972
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 2: maybe only kind of half paying attention, or if you

973
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 2: don't know that much about feminism modern feminism, you'd be like, wow, again,

974
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 2: a movie about a woman who prioritizes her career that

975
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 2: she's really good at over a relationship with a boring

976
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 2: man whooh feminism, but because she ends up with a

977
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 2: different man who is way worse of a person and

978
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 2: who manipulates her and everyone around him. And again it's

979
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 2: like this idea of like, well, you know, women actually

980
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 2: can't have it all. So feminism looks like women in career,

981
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 2: not women as a homemaker or like woman doing domestic things,

982
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 2: and that is not what feminism is. Again, it's all

983
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 2: about choice, and it's all about choosing what works best

984
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 2: for you. But I understand why you'd have the notion of, oh, well,

985
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 2: choosing career over domestic things, Well, that's feminist because women

986
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 2: were expected to take on this role of traditional domestic homemaker,

987
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 2: and so choosing career, which is the opposite of what

988
00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 2: women were traditionally expected to do under the patriarchy, well

989
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 2: that must be feminist. And that is not the case.

990
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 2: But that is sort of the logic, right, I think

991
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 2: this movie is operating under.

992
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 1: Totally like it's like and I understand, like, particularly if

993
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: you're a viewer of the time, why if you would

994
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 1: if you reactionally would be like this is way more

995
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: than I'm used to, Like, sure, she gets to talk,

996
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: but I mean, you know, also movies of this day,

997
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: it's weird, like how World War two movies and movies

998
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: of the forties like women generally do tend to have

999
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: more agency when like Katherine Hepburn is at her peak

1000
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 1: of fame and all of this stuff, and then there

1001
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: is like a pretty severe pullback of that in the

1002
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: fifties as women's roles changed. So this kind of is

1003
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: the most you know, agency you might see a woman

1004
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: with in a big movie for some time in the

1005
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: early forties. There's movies that are you know, still all

1006
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,440
Speaker 1: made by men, but you do have like more you know,

1007
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: women that have there's a dual protagon. I would still

1008
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 1: argue that Hildy is the protagonist of this movie. She

1009
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 1: gets more screen time than Carry Grant. I would argue, like, so, yeah,

1010
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 1: and she is driving the narrative more. You know, he

1011
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,439
Speaker 1: is doing his Greu shit. He's very gru code, he's

1012
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: doing evil stuff. Grew interesting, nicer to his wife than

1013
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 1: Carrie Grant is in this movie. Interesting. He does have

1014
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: a Kevin yes, But yeah, that, like, she you know,

1015
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: is driving the narrative. She has a job, she's good

1016
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: at it, she's respected for it, she's desired professionally, not

1017
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: just as a but all of that is undercut by

1018
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 1: the fact that like that, you know, this movie does

1019
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: not suggest any radical ideas in terms of like a

1020
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 1: woman can have quote unquote at all. It just doesn't.

1021
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: But I still think for nineteen forty it's it's doing.

1022
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,479
Speaker 1: It's doing a lot. I didn't think it was going

1023
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 1: to do. Agree, But it's not a feminist movie. Sorry, folks, no,

1024
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 1: it's not.

1025
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 2: In my research about this movie because again, when Howard

1026
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 2: Hawks got his hands on this play slash screenplay and

1027
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 2: was like casting the movie, he originally intended for it

1028
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 2: to be a pretty faithful adaptation to the original source

1029
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:19,479
Speaker 2: material as far as like having both the interesting editor

1030
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 2: in chief and the reporter be both men. But when

1031
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 2: he was doing auditions, Howard Hawks had his assistant, who

1032
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 2: was a woman, read the reporter's lines in the auditions,

1033
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 2: and he was like, wait a minute, I like the

1034
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 2: sound of this. I like that it's you know, a

1035
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: woman with those interesting these lines. And so it was

1036
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 2: rewritten for the reporter to be a woman, and then

1037
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: they made the changes that the backstory was that they

1038
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:55,439
Speaker 2: were formerly married now divorced, and which is.

1039
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 1: Also like, oh, you know, there's no other way to

1040
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: get a woman into the story than his wife and

1041
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: him to some extent.

1042
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 2: Right, So that's a little bit more of the context.

1043
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 2: A little bit more is that in his comedies, Howard

1044
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 2: Hawks would often let his actors improv some of their lines.

1045
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 2: So this ability to improv allowed Rosalind Russell to basically

1046
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: she hired a ghost writer to punch up some of

1047
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 2: her dialogue because she felt that she didn't have nearly

1048
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 2: as many like good lines or little quips or whatever

1049
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 2: as Carrie Grant was given, because the screenwriters were like, well,

1050
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 2: women are boring. The man should get all the good lines.

1051
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: And I didn't know this, This is so cool.

1052
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 2: Yes, She talks about this in her autobiography entitled Life

1053
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 2: is a Banquet. So she was upset that she wasn't

1054
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 2: given as good of dialogue as the man. So she

1055
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 2: hired a ghostwriter to punch up her lines. And because

1056
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 2: they were allowed to improve a little bit, she would

1057
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 2: not really improv because they had been pre written for her,

1058
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 2: but she would slip in these lines. And the only

1059
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 2: person who knew this was Carrie Grant, and so he

1060
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 2: would like go to her on set every day to

1061
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 2: be like, what have you got today? Meaning like, what

1062
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 2: did the ghostwriter write for you for this scene?

1063
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 1: Oh? So, and so he was like supportive of it

1064
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 1: and seem like he did.

1065
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 2: He didn't seem to like nark on her at least.

1066
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,439
Speaker 1: That's so that's lovely mm hmm.

1067
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 2: I mean sucks that she was not written to have

1068
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 2: better lines in the original script, but cool that she

1069
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: had the freedom to kind of and the instinct to

1070
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 2: have better lines written for her.

1071
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. I wonder how common a practice that would

1072
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 1: have been. I mean that that makes a lot of

1073
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 1: sense because you have so few women working as screenwriter.

1074
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: I mean it speaks to completely to how much diversity

1075
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,120
Speaker 1: behind the scenes makes a difference that for the fact

1076
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,919
Speaker 1: that she had to out of pocket, I'm assuming hire

1077
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 1: a ghost writer to write her better lines. I mean

1078
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: money well spent ultimately shouldn't have been money she had

1079
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 1: to spend. But like she I feel like, you know,

1080
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,440
Speaker 1: Carrie Grant, his character is evil and if you can

1081
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 1: accept that, I think his performance is really really funny,

1082
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: like there's like so many expressions or like Deliverered, I mean,

1083
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: they're just both so good. The only person that is

1084
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 1: better than them at any moment is Billy Gilbert Joe

1085
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: Petty Bone, who just drowns them all and kills them yeah,

1086
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: but I mean that's that's fascinating. And Rosalind Russell is

1087
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 1: in another movie that we've been threatening to cover for

1088
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 1: years that came out the year before The Women. She's

1089
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 1: one of the women. Wow, that's fascinating. Yeah, we have

1090
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: a couple other women in this movie, which again was

1091
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 1: brave of the filmmakers. But now knowing that, that's fascinating

1092
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: because you can tell that the rest of the women

1093
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: in this movie are reading the dialogue is written, not

1094
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: a criticism of them. No one should have to hire

1095
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: another writer to write their lines better. But the other

1096
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 1: three characters you have are I think the most prominent

1097
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 1: is Molly molloy. You have Bruce's his mom, and you

1098
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: have a character who appears very briefly named Evangeline I believe,

1099
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 1: who is one of Walter's minions who he sends her again.

1100
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 1: She's hanging out with the with Kevin's. It seems like

1101
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 1: they're both minions on retainer for various illegal hijinks Walter

1102
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 1: wants to pull.

1103
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 2: Louis is the Kevin le Mignon. I think this other

1104
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 2: this woman the not to reduce a woman to her

1105
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 2: hair color, but that's what everyone else in the movie does.

1106
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 2: But these she's blonde woman.

1107
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, hawks also has a whole thing about blondes.

1108
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 2: I mean, gentlemen prefer them. Obviously, it's been said she

1109
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 2: is I guess she's the Stewart or the Bob of

1110
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 2: the group of the uncle. Yeah, and she I mean,

1111
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 2: I guess I mean she is deployed in a gendered way, right,

1112
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 2: because she is sent to seduce Bruce, seduce Bruce.

1113
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 1: Bruce, Yeah, to get him arrested a second time, basically

1114
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 1: like and I guess Hildy knows that this is a

1115
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 1: part of Walter's minion playbook. Who knows if she has also,

1116
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, used It's unclear that because we only see

1117
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 1: Hilldy returning to reporting, and we don't see what she

1118
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:34,040
Speaker 1: was like before, it's unclear how on board she is

1119
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 1: with this stuff. I'm assuming, mih that's the feeling I

1120
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: was gonna. Yeah, I still wouldn't say she's an ethical

1121
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 1: reporter because the only reports we sear writing are fake,

1122
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 1: but at least you know there is moral intent behind

1123
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: them than a lot of the men she works with.

1124
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:53,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, we are given a name for this character.

1125
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: Carrie Grant kind of mumbles it, so I had to

1126
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: look it up, but her name is Evangeline. But then

1127
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: she's just referred to as that blonde lady that is

1128
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 1: paid to seduce people. So they go to jail question Mark,

1129
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 1: So not much going on there. I would say Bruce's

1130
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: mom's character is treated in a pretty ageist and gendered way.

1131
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 1: You know, she's the hysterical mother even though she's right.

1132
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 1: Obviously she's like which I mean it is? Is it

1133
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 1: pity women against women? Yes, but Hildy is being despicable

1134
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: to her son. Why would she side with Hildy in

1135
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: this situation? She's just like, you are a little brat,

1136
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: and she's like me, and then she gets kidnapped. She's like, well,

1137
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 1: it's brat's summer, so what do you expect nineteen forty

1138
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 1: brat summer.

1139
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 2: I would also argue that the way Molly Molloy jumps

1140
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 2: out of a window is leaning into like women be hysterical.

1141
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 1: Tropes, and that matches any read I think whether it

1142
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 1: is being characterized as an attempt on her own life

1143
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 1: or if it's being like as like a hysterical attempt

1144
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 1: at escape, either way it leans into tropes around women.

1145
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,920
Speaker 1: And again I think that like Molly Malloy's character works

1146
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 1: with the satirical bend to this story where she you

1147
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 1: know her and earl her in a more gendered way,

1148
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 1: which I feel like is at least an attempt or

1149
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: maybe accidental commentary on how women are treated in reporting

1150
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 1: of like, oh, she's a woman who he knew, so

1151
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 1: of course we're going to make up that there was

1152
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 1: like this whole affair and they're in love and blah

1153
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 1: blah blah, and then they lie to her and say, well,

1154
01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 1: that's what Earle said when it's clear that that's not true.

1155
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:51,200
Speaker 1: Like and so she is. I can appreciate her character

1156
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 1: where she is just beside herself that there is no

1157
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 1: she cannot get anyone to take her seriously. She is

1158
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 1: very much like upon in this narrative, a narrative that

1159
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 1: she's on board with because she doesn't want Earle to

1160
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 1: be killed, but you know, like no one is listening

1161
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:13,599
Speaker 1: to her, and the closest she can get to anyone

1162
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 1: listening to her is when Hilty takes her aside and

1163
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:17,760
Speaker 1: takes her out of the room and sort of extracts

1164
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 1: her from this really traumatic, upsetting situation she's in. But

1165
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:26,599
Speaker 1: even Hildy doesn't really do much to know. I think

1166
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:30,800
Speaker 1: she like calms her down, but doesn't do anything to

1167
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:33,639
Speaker 1: meaningfully alter that narrative. And we know because of how

1168
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 1: you know like she what we know about Hildy. The

1169
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 1: one thing I'll say for her is that she she

1170
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 1: doesn't reproduce the sexist here's a woman, Earle knew, they're

1171
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 1: in love, they have a loved as blah blah blah.

1172
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:52,680
Speaker 1: She does more accurately characterize Molly as someone who just

1173
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 1: really cares about him and would be very upset if

1174
01:09:56,560 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 1: he was killed by the government, which which is more true.

1175
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 1: And that is like the I think, the most sort

1176
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 1: of noble thing that Hildy does in the course of

1177
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:12,720
Speaker 1: the movie. But Hildy is still despicable in that, Like

1178
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 1: her reporting is less bad than everyone else's, it's more

1179
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:19,599
Speaker 1: empathetic than everyone else's, but she still leaves this guy

1180
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 1: to die in a desk, you know, after it makes

1181
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 1: sense too, Like there's a part of like, at least

1182
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:28,720
Speaker 1: I like there there's a hyjinx portion where no one

1183
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 1: can know Earls in the room because he'll be arrested

1184
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:32,680
Speaker 1: and then he'll be killed. Okay, fine, he has to

1185
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:35,559
Speaker 1: stay in the desk for that portion, but they also

1186
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 1: leave him in the drawer while they're just having a

1187
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: conversation about how she's going to win an award for

1188
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 1: writing this, and while they're like hashing out their relationship,

1189
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:48,719
Speaker 1: like he is suffocating. So I don't know. But with Molly,

1190
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:52,719
Speaker 1: she's I don't know. Molly's just underwritten and under thought. Yeah.

1191
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 1: I feel for her character because and I think that

1192
01:10:56,080 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 1: like she is presented as a character who is worthy

1193
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 1: of consideration, but like the writing just isn't there and

1194
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 1: it falls into tropes around hysteria, and then ultimately the

1195
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:10,640
Speaker 1: plot does not care what happens to her after this

1196
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: late And part of the reason that we don't know

1197
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:17,479
Speaker 1: what her motivation narratively is for jumping out of the

1198
01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 1: window is because we never hear about her again, right, yes,

1199
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:22,120
Speaker 1: because I think that all they say is like, oh,

1200
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:23,639
Speaker 1: we think she's going to make.

1201
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:26,920
Speaker 2: It, Oh she moved, she wasn't killed, and yeah, we

1202
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 2: don't know. We don't know if she survives or not.

1203
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 2: I do like the monologue she gives to that group

1204
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 2: of crime reporters where she's like, oh, you wouldn't give

1205
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 2: me the time of day or listen to me until

1206
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:41,839
Speaker 2: it's like serving you and your story. Now you're listening

1207
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:45,439
Speaker 2: to me, that's some bullshit hypocrisy, and that's really cool.

1208
01:11:45,439 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 2: But then again, two seconds later she jumps out of

1209
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 2: a window and we never see her again.

1210
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 1: So it's all very mellow, dramatic like the way it

1211
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 1: plays at even though I yeah, I agree like that

1212
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 1: what she's saying makes a lot of sense, and I

1213
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 1: feel like, unfortunately, is still very applicable to true crime

1214
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 1: reporting that you see today, which just is so largely

1215
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:10,920
Speaker 1: base and scary, with like the lack of consideration it

1216
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:16,320
Speaker 1: gives to anybody dead or alive. So it's definitely like

1217
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 1: relevant commentary. But again it's like, because it's like written

1218
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:23,599
Speaker 1: and orchestrated by men, it just seems like they can't

1219
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:29,720
Speaker 1: help themselves. They as far as Earl himself goes, I

1220
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like there are some tropes around

1221
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:35,720
Speaker 1: the working class in general at play, because the two

1222
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 1: working class characters, or I guess the three working class

1223
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 1: characters we get to know are Molly Molloy, who is

1224
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:43,600
Speaker 1: treated I think unkindly in a more gendered way, and

1225
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 1: then with Earle and our boy Joe petty Bone, they're

1226
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 1: just made out to be. They are made out to

1227
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 1: be sympathetic, we're not rooting against them, but they're also

1228
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:56,280
Speaker 1: not made out to be very smart correct, and are

1229
01:12:56,479 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 1: just being actively manipulated by politicians and journalists. And I

1230
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:04,599
Speaker 1: guess what I can say is that both of those

1231
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 1: characters do seem aware that that's happening, because Joe Pettybone

1232
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:11,760
Speaker 1: comes back and is like, wait, no, fuck you, you

1233
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 1: know I will I will not be bought.

1234
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 2: But he is presented as being like quite doofy.

1235
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,679
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly I mean, And that's this actor's bread and butter.

1236
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:23,559
Speaker 1: And I do feel like the two working classmen that

1237
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 1: we get to know are presented to be pretty malleable

1238
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:31,920
Speaker 1: and like easily manipulated and unintelligent, which is just never

1239
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:36,280
Speaker 1: a trope I like to see. It is I think

1240
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 1: an attempt at commentary, but it certainly like rubbed me

1241
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 1: very much the wrong way. The way that it's The

1242
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:45,680
Speaker 1: plot goes out of its way to say that Earl,

1243
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 1: like we are led to believe that Earl, you know,

1244
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 1: did shoot someone by mistake, but they go out of

1245
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:53,599
Speaker 1: their way to say that it was a cop who's

1246
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 1: a person of color. I think we're led to believe

1247
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:56,639
Speaker 1: a black cop.

1248
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:59,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the language they use, which is you know, very outdated,

1249
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 2: but it's specific to black people, so.

1250
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 1: Right, And so they they mentioned that, and then the

1251
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 1: attempt at commentary that follows is that politicians will want

1252
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: to hang Earl whether he's guilty or not because they

1253
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:20,880
Speaker 1: value the black vote, which I don't know. I see

1254
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 1: what they're going for, but it just is like, not,

1255
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,840
Speaker 1: it's not well done at all, especially because there are

1256
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:28,560
Speaker 1: no movie where no black people.

1257
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 2: Black characters having any perspective on the matter whatsoever. Every

1258
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:35,839
Speaker 2: single actor and character we see is a white.

1259
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: Person, so right. So it's like, you know, bringing race

1260
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:42,960
Speaker 1: into the conversation at all when there's not going to

1261
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 1: be any attempt which I don't know, this is Hayes

1262
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: code era, but it's still just like if if you

1263
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:54,599
Speaker 1: are unable or unwilling to cast any people of color

1264
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 1: in your movie, that doesn't need to be there. I

1265
01:14:57,320 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 1: don't know. It just felt like a throwaway attempt to

1266
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: commentary that didn't sit very well with me.

1267
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, very of the era, Yeah, dud, do you have

1268
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 2: anything else you wanted to talk about?

1269
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:12,280
Speaker 1: I don't think so.

1270
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:14,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1271
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:19,000
Speaker 1: Ultimately, I feel like the real tricky thing for me

1272
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 1: with this movie is making Hildy's career that she does

1273
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:31,280
Speaker 1: seem to love inextricable with this marriage that she's being

1274
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 1: coerced into re entering. Just makes this, you know, at

1275
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:39,640
Speaker 1: least from an analytical point, I still think it's a

1276
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:42,559
Speaker 1: blast to watch. I'll watch it again. It's a movie

1277
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:45,640
Speaker 1: to watch with soup, I think. But yeah, as a

1278
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:49,920
Speaker 1: feminist work, it just making those two things inextricable from

1279
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: each other. It just, you know, it's unfortunate because I

1280
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:54,680
Speaker 1: think it is preventable.

1281
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:58,559
Speaker 2: I think there could be a modern retelling of this

1282
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 2: that using a lot of the same kind of foundational

1283
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 2: story beats, could be a feminist text, but this was

1284
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 2: nineteen forty, so it was never really gonna happen that way.

1285
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:13,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I do. I mean, it's like I also

1286
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:18,040
Speaker 1: just like I'm a sucker for a movie about girl reporters,

1287
01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:21,920
Speaker 1: girls spies, blah blah blah, Like I'd love it all.

1288
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 1: I'm a sucker for it. And it's a bummer when

1289
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:28,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, you know, going into nineteen a

1290
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:31,880
Speaker 1: movie made at this time, you don't really expect a

1291
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 1: feminist masterpiece, but it's this movie feels like it's teasing

1292
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 1: you with the fact that, with some adjustment, it could

1293
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:39,920
Speaker 1: have been way closer. Yeah.

1294
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:42,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and for all we know, it might have been

1295
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:45,960
Speaker 2: considered a feminist masterpiece in nineteen forty.

1296
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:48,280
Speaker 1: For the time it might have been, because I mean, yeah,

1297
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 1: hard to.

1298
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,880
Speaker 2: Say, we're way too young, we would We don't know

1299
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 2: if we were.

1300
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:54,679
Speaker 1: We weren't alive in nineteen forty.

1301
01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this movie, as we've already hinted at, does

1302
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 2: pass the Bechdel test.

1303
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:05,599
Speaker 1: Kind of very fleetingly, but in a way that does

1304
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 1: feel plot relevant because it's between Hildy and Molly, and

1305
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 1: those those are consequential interactions, but they're brief.

1306
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 2: Right, And then when Hildy speaks to her mother in law,

1307
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:24,479
Speaker 2: Missus Bruce whatever, Missus Baldwin, I think it's always about Bruce.

1308
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:26,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's never gonna work.

1309
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:27,240
Speaker 1: I agree.

1310
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:30,200
Speaker 2: As far as our nipple scale, where we rate the

1311
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 2: movie zero to five nipples based on examining the movie

1312
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 2: through an intersectional feminist lens, I'll give it like a

1313
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:47,200
Speaker 2: one point five, maybe a two, because of what it

1314
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 2: seemed to be attempting to do. As far as like, look,

1315
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:55,160
Speaker 2: a woman can have a career but it's presented as

1316
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 2: though she doesn't actually know what she wants, and it

1317
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 2: takes a bunch of men to convince her what she wants,

1318
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 2: because a woman can't be trusted to know what she

1319
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 2: desires for herself and her life. Oh and the fact

1320
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 2: that as I was watching this and seeing all of

1321
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 2: the horrible things that Walter the carry Grant character does

1322
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:22,040
Speaker 2: and says repeatedly in every single scene he's in, I

1323
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 2: was like, if she ends up with him, I'm gonna

1324
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 2: be so pissed, even though I knew that was bound

1325
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 2: to happen. And then she does, and I was so pissed.

1326
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 1: But by the end, I'm not even convinced that she

1327
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 1: deserves better. Now, that's not something she does deserve better,

1328
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:37,600
Speaker 1: But it's like she does so many garbage things. I

1329
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:40,400
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know. It's the way she treats Bruce,

1330
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 1: not me being team Bruce, but like unforgivable. The crime

1331
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:46,280
Speaker 1: of being boring does should not lead you in jail

1332
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:47,360
Speaker 1: three times in a day.

1333
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, left by the person who was

1334
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 2: supposed to marry you tomorrow and all his money is

1335
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:56,040
Speaker 2: gone and his money's gone.

1336
01:18:56,439 --> 01:18:58,160
Speaker 1: The crime of being boring, unreal.

1337
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 2: The other thing I have to say about this movie

1338
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 2: is so Howard Hawks was. He was very interested in

1339
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:10,719
Speaker 2: like overlapping dialogue. He thought it resembled the way people

1340
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:14,400
Speaker 2: actually speak more realistically, which is true. Yeah, but he

1341
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:20,080
Speaker 2: was determined to break the record for fastest film dialogue,

1342
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:25,080
Speaker 2: which was a thing I guess, the Olympics of film dialogue.

1343
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 2: He wanted to get the gold medal. And I am

1344
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:32,719
Speaker 2: reminded of a quote from one of my favorite movies

1345
01:19:32,880 --> 01:19:36,559
Speaker 2: which I just rewatched last night, Jurassic Park. And here's

1346
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:40,559
Speaker 2: what I'll say. The director was so preoccupied with whether

1347
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:43,599
Speaker 2: or not he could he didn't stop to think if

1348
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 2: he should trying to break this record for fast It

1349
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 2: gave me such a I had such a headache after

1350
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:52,519
Speaker 2: watching this. I didn't know what anyone was saying. I

1351
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:56,840
Speaker 2: couldn't parse out anything, so headache inducing.

1352
01:19:56,880 --> 01:20:01,679
Speaker 1: Different strokes Baby at think air Rocks bring it back.

1353
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:05,520
Speaker 2: I don't mind like quippy, fast back and forth dialogue,

1354
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:08,799
Speaker 2: but there are some scenes where ten people are talking

1355
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:11,760
Speaker 2: all at once, and I just I was like, to

1356
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:13,760
Speaker 2: what end? I can't I don't know what any of

1357
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:14,240
Speaker 2: you say.

1358
01:20:14,160 --> 01:20:20,639
Speaker 1: Making Jamie smile, Marylyn frown. Wow. Another classic episode of

1359
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:21,519
Speaker 1: the Basketball Cast.

1360
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:24,120
Speaker 2: So true anyway, I'll give it one and a half nipples.

1361
01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 2: I think it seemed feminist ish for the time, for

1362
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:35,760
Speaker 2: nineteen forty, but obviously nearly one hundred years later doesn't

1363
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:39,760
Speaker 2: really cut the mustard. Is that an expression?

1364
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:42,160
Speaker 1: I think it's an old timey It sounds like an

1365
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 1: old timey expression.

1366
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:50,880
Speaker 2: Appropriate. And I'll give one nipple to Rosalind Russell, and

1367
01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 2: I'll give my half nipple to Joe pettibone.

1368
01:20:55,840 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 1: King of him, King Joe Pettybone. I'm going to get

1369
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:00,720
Speaker 1: I'm going to do this, but done the middle. I'm

1370
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:03,599
Speaker 1: gonna give this two and a half nipples. I think that,

1371
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:07,439
Speaker 1: you know, taking into consideration the time, the two and

1372
01:21:07,479 --> 01:21:09,920
Speaker 1: a half nipples are cleanly cut off by the fact

1373
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:14,080
Speaker 1: that really the whole of this character's false, like Hildy's

1374
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:17,960
Speaker 1: false liberation is you know, her being kind of pulled

1375
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:24,759
Speaker 1: back in by this manipulative x husband and predatory system. However,

1376
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,120
Speaker 1: for the time, I think you're seeing so much of

1377
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, like women's agency and capability that wasn't considered

1378
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:34,760
Speaker 1: kind of verboten in a lot of earlier movies. There's

1379
01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 1: no time in this movie, which I feel like also

1380
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:41,080
Speaker 1: in any sort of I mean, this is a rom com,

1381
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 1: but it's also a crime movie, which is interesting. But

1382
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 1: we don't see Hildy ever damseled in any way. We

1383
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:49,920
Speaker 1: see her actively moving the story forward. She's really good

1384
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:52,120
Speaker 1: at her job. I mean, even though a lot of

1385
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:54,400
Speaker 1: this is surface level, I think for the time the

1386
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:58,479
Speaker 1: surface level is pretty subversive, and I like that Rosalind Russell.

1387
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:02,680
Speaker 1: I hate that she had to resort to having to

1388
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:04,760
Speaker 1: pay someone under the table to give her good lines,

1389
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:08,519
Speaker 1: but I love that her performance, I mean, almost against

1390
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:12,800
Speaker 1: the wishes of the creatives. She steals the show except

1391
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:15,519
Speaker 1: when Joe Pettibone is in the room, and then she

1392
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:18,679
Speaker 1: loses those scenes. But she, for me, like steals every scene.

1393
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:22,320
Speaker 1: She's in such an amazing performance. I love movies about

1394
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:24,679
Speaker 1: women journalists, so kind of a sucker for this stuff

1395
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:28,439
Speaker 1: plenty to be desired. You couldn't call it a feminist movie,

1396
01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:30,519
Speaker 1: but I do think that it's subversive, and I want

1397
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:33,440
Speaker 1: to give it some credit for I think really effective

1398
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:38,439
Speaker 1: and unfortunately still relevant commentary around how politics and media

1399
01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:42,840
Speaker 1: are inextricably linked in a way that makes it impossible

1400
01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:48,840
Speaker 1: to get justice on fair terms. So I'm going to

1401
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:50,200
Speaker 1: give it two and a half nibbles. I'm going to

1402
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:53,400
Speaker 1: give one to Rosalind Russell. I'm going to give one

1403
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:56,880
Speaker 1: to Slim Keith, who Howard Hawks was married to, I

1404
01:22:56,960 --> 01:23:00,679
Speaker 1: believe at the tie or he was dating at the time,

1405
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 1: who was just a really fascinating historical figure who later

1406
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 1: gets entrenched into the world of Truman Capote's Swans, which

1407
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 1: was there was a terrible mini series about earlier this year,

1408
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,599
Speaker 1: but a really great book that I read. And she's

1409
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:18,439
Speaker 1: just like a fascinating person who was said to be

1410
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:21,200
Speaker 1: sort of an inspiration for a lot of haxy and

1411
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:27,280
Speaker 1: women as someone who was very self possessed and assertive

1412
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:30,960
Speaker 1: and cool. And I will give the other half nipple,

1413
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:34,200
Speaker 1: of course to King Joe Patty Bone, mister Sneeze himself.

1414
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:38,439
Speaker 1: We love him. It is ultimately his movie.

1415
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:40,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, no arguing that.

1416
01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 1: And that is his Girl Fridays, Wow Friday. I know

1417
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,960
Speaker 1: it's because I would say his his fems on Friday

1418
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:51,679
Speaker 1: was what I was going to say about us.

1419
01:23:52,000 --> 01:24:00,080
Speaker 2: I think it's about the restaurant franchise Fridays, His Girl Fridays.

1420
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:05,080
Speaker 1: Tgi Friday Wow Wow. And it makes you think it does.

1421
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:07,840
Speaker 1: You can watch this movie also. If you haven't seen

1422
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:10,640
Speaker 1: this movie, I would still recommend it. I mean, and

1423
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:13,040
Speaker 1: you can watch it really wherever because it's in the

1424
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 1: public domain. I watched it on to b Wow. To

1425
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:18,600
Speaker 1: be or not to be?

1426
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:20,000
Speaker 2: That is the question.

1427
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:22,600
Speaker 1: I just love watching eighty commercials, so I watched it

1428
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:24,320
Speaker 1: on to be. But you can watch it like ad

1429
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 1: free in a lot of places. All right, Caitlin, I

1430
01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:32,040
Speaker 1: guess that that that's that's a case cracked. Let's get

1431
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:32,920
Speaker 1: married in Niagara Fall.

1432
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:38,080
Speaker 2: That's all, folks. This is not a Learney Tunes. I

1433
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:39,040
Speaker 2: don't know why I said that.

1434
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:44,799
Speaker 1: Well, if you'd like to hear more of our basic

1435
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:48,559
Speaker 1: reparte right up there with Howard Hawks's Best, you could

1436
01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:53,479
Speaker 1: follow our Patriot aka Matreon joined for five dollars a month,

1437
01:24:54,280 --> 01:24:58,760
Speaker 1: which will get you access to two new episodes a

1438
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:02,880
Speaker 1: month with Kaitlyn and myself about frequently requested episodes, often

1439
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:05,880
Speaker 1: on a ridiculous the Way Makeup, and it also gives

1440
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:08,320
Speaker 1: you access to over one hundred and fifty episodes in

1441
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:10,360
Speaker 1: our back catalog. How do you like that?

1442
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:14,400
Speaker 2: I love that. Yes, thank you so much for listening.

1443
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 2: You can also follow us on Instagram. At Bechdel Cast

1444
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:23,719
Speaker 2: you can buy our Little merch designed by Jamie Loftus.

1445
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:29,920
Speaker 1: Ever heard of her, The Little merch Maid. Yeah, I'm sorry,

1446
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm riding on this negative COVID test. Let's get silly.

1447
01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:37,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to go see trap.

1448
01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:43,280
Speaker 2: Wow Yeah Merch at teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel

1449
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:49,719
Speaker 2: Cast and we'll see you back here next week. Yes see,

1450
01:25:49,880 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 2: so long, So long, folks, see yes see, bye bye.

1451
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:01,040
Speaker 2: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeart Media, hosted

1452
01:26:01,040 --> 01:26:04,479
Speaker 2: by Caitlin Drante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman,

1453
01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:08,160
Speaker 2: edited by Moe laboord. Our theme song was composed by

1454
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:12,439
Speaker 2: Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in

1455
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:15,880
Speaker 2: Merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks

1456
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:20,080
Speaker 2: to Aristotle Assevedo. For more information about the podcast, please

1457
01:26:20,160 --> 01:26:22,000
Speaker 2: visit link tree slash Bechtelcast