1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Quody Dinars, but Joseph's gotten more. If given the task, 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: could we do it. There's so many people out there 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: that say that they would do it, but yet there's 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: a very small and I mean very small percentage of 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: people that have actually ever done it. What I'm talking 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: about is, let's see what are some of the euphemistic 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: terms pulling switch, pressing the button, or in our case today, 8 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: pulling the trigger. Today we're going to talk about an 9 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: execution that recently took place in the state of South Carolina. Now, 10 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: Brother Dave and I have talked about executions in the past, 11 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: but this one is a particular interest me. So let's 12 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: explore what happens in what failed happened in what summer 13 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: calling a watched execution. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 14 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: is body bags fifteen feet, Dave, that's all that separates 15 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: the end of a muzzle from a static target strapped 16 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: to a chair. Fifteen feet. Let's see, that's five yards. 17 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: Being an old high school football player, I always measure 18 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: things in yards because I can visualize that from being 19 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: on a playing field. So it's weird, I think for 20 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: many people, particularly those that deal in the metric system 21 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: on a regular basis. But that's a conversation for another day. 22 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: But for me, you know, I'm thinking five yards away, 23 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: that's it's not very far. And to be handed a 24 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: weapon and be told that at the other end, only 25 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: a five yard shot with a long barreled weapon that 26 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: is rifled hit this target. And boy, did things take 27 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: a bad turn. 28 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: We know, South Carolina, we're dealing with the execution of 29 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: Mikel Maddy. This is a man who actually wrote in 30 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: a letter for his attorneys to share, I'm guilty as hell. 31 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: What I've done is irredeemable. That is directly from the 32 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 2: subject of today. Mikel Mody was on a crime spree. 33 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: He's twenty one years old. He starts off in Virginia. 34 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 2: He ends up in North Carolina where he steals a 35 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 2: vehicle and he actually kills a clerk. He then heads 36 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: down to South Carolina where he tries to use a 37 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 2: credit card to get gas in his vehicle and he 38 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: spends like forty five minutes trying to do it and 39 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: it's not working because the credit card is not any good. Well, 40 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: the clerk calls cops. Hey, man, there's a guy out 41 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: here trying to get some gas and whatever. And so 42 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: they show up and there's a bit of a you know, 43 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: they're after this guy, Mikel Maddy ends up at a 44 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: farm area, not like a corn farm or you know, 45 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 2: cotton or whatever, but farmland that had been purchased by 46 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: a couple. 47 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 3: As they're piece of heaven on earth. 48 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, beautiful area, a little pond and things, 49 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: and there's this shed that they had built on this property. 50 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: Was it was a big deal for them because they 51 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: don't even the couple won't even marry fifteen months, show 52 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: fifteen months and I'm thinking this is just too cool 53 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: for school. And they get married in front of the 54 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: shed that they had built, and that's where Michel Maddy 55 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: ran into the actual victim of this case, Jim Myers, 56 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: a fifty six year old officer of the law. Yeah, 57 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: Mikel Maddy shot him at least eight times, probably more 58 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: and then poured diesel fuel over his body and set 59 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 2: him on fire. That is what mcelmody admitted to, and 60 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: that's why he was sentenced to death. 61 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, I found this interesting because you know, most 62 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: of the time you have to you know, if you've 63 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: got somebody involved in something like this. The fact that 64 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: he admitted to it. You, I think that many people believe, 65 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: and wrongly believe that for some reason, you're going to 66 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: be shown a level of mercy. Maybe he was thinking 67 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: about that, you know, by the courts, that maybe he'd 68 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: only be looking at potentially life in prison or something. 69 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, this guy is police officer, 70 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: and yeah, he's off duty. Not just a police officer. 71 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: He's a captain and had had a long career. You know, 72 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: he's like in his mid fifties, old Joe. Yeah, and 73 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: can you imagine you've lived this life. You've been away 74 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: from your family at night, working third watch, and I'm 75 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: just thinking about this guy's life. You know now looking back, 76 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: you know he's worked time away from his family. He's 77 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: probably missed ball games and dance recitals and everything else 78 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: that comes along that we always talk about. And then 79 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: you get to this kind of mucolic place where just 80 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: over the horizon you can see that you're finally going 81 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: to be able to hang up your badge and celebrate 82 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: and you found love and maybe even peace. And then 83 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: this descends upon you. Out of all people in the world, 84 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: that this perpetrator could have shown up on the doorstep 85 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: of it's this guy, and this is arguably a just 86 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: an absolute brutal example of overkill of an individual. Why 87 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: would you feel compelled to do this? And you there's 88 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: an interesting point that you brought up, Dave. You use 89 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: the term frenzy with this individual, that he's hishill. His 90 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: sole focus is to get from point A to point B. 91 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: And you really wonder because so many people, and you know, 92 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: I hate the why question. I think more importantly, what 93 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: was his end game? Was he just going to, you know, 94 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: descend upon us like the Angel of Death or the 95 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: Black Plague and wipe out as many people as he could. 96 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: Where are you going to go at that point in time. 97 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated in a general sort of way about 98 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: these people that do this sort of thing. It's always 99 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: amazing to me. And can I back up just for 100 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: a second. You had mentioned North Carolina with this clerk, 101 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: and again the perpetrator in this case was not put 102 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: to death or had not been sentenced to be executed 103 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: regarding the event in South in North Carolina. But I 104 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: have kids that I teach, Okay, that work in convenience 105 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: stores and for my money, for my money. It is 106 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: one of the most dangerous jobs aside from like food delivery, 107 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: this sort of thing where you don't know who's going 108 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: to be walking in the door. And you know, police 109 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: officers actually refer to convenience stores many times as stopping robs. 110 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: That's what they'll refer to it, because they're easy targets, 111 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: and it is, you know, and there's so many of 112 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: these cases out there where convenience store workers have been killed. 113 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's not a it's not a job 114 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: I would take per se. I guess you've got a 115 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: lot of time to study. You know, you can hang 116 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: out behind the counter and study, but you Dave, you 117 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: never know what's going to walk through the door. 118 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: It's shocking to me as well, Joe, that I look 119 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: at convence I get people who work, the people who 120 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: actually punch a time clock working at a convenience store 121 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 2: or whatever they have. I just respect them so much, 122 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: I really do, especially when they're going to school, because 123 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 2: you know, I had to do that too when I 124 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 2: went to school, I had to work. And those who 125 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: punch a time clock and are they're just doing what 126 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: they have to do to get by, to get to 127 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: the next level. I just think it's a great example, 128 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: and too often we dismiss it, we throw that off 129 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 2: of the side. But it's like those jobs you do, 130 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: like working at a convenience store as a clerk, regardless 131 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: of the danger, it is a step to someplace else. 132 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 3: It's not the end all, you. 133 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: Know, it's not where you plan on being when you're 134 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: in college at twenty to be in that same place 135 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: twenty years from now. It's a job that has done 136 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: to get you to the next stop in your life. 137 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 2: And that's when I look at this guy. He's only 138 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: twenty one when he commits this crime, these crimes plural. 139 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 2: I don't know what he was doing, Joe. I don't 140 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: know what his plan was when he woke up July fourteenth, 141 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 2: two thousand and four. We're talking about, you know, in 142 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: this show about a botched execution, the victim is not 143 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: the victim. You know, technically he is in this story, 144 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: but I couldn't write it, Joe. I could not put 145 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: a victim next to this man's name. He was a 146 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 2: victimizer who was paying his debt to society, which had 147 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 2: been your life. Got to give it up. And anyway, 148 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: I don't know what he. 149 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: Was doing, what he left in his wake, though, or 150 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: two people that are statious that are they're neither one 151 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: of these individuals were you know, living somewhere in some palace. Okay, 152 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: they don't. They've given everything that they can give. I mean, 153 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: they both wind up, you know, giving their lives, you know, 154 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: to the appetite of this monster. But I can tell 155 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: you this, the monster that all the way back in 156 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: the early two thousands, that committed both of these crimes, 157 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: he had a day of reckoning, in a day where 158 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: his life ended with a parent awareness of his death, 159 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: writhing in pain while strapped to a chair. There was 160 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: a there's a running joke in in my family. I 161 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: think it was my daughter that you know, this term was, 162 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: you know, kind of used a lot when she was 163 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: a young teenager, and it kind of got adopted by 164 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: our family. And if one of us screwed up something LEXI, 165 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: my daughter would say, way to go, dad, you're ruining 166 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: it for everybody. And and you know, and we would 167 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: we would say that to one another all the way around. 168 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: And that's that's it's a comical remark. It's generally said 169 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: in jest, and that sort of thing but Dave, what 170 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: happened in that execution chamber is literally an example I think, 171 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: at least as far as capital punishment is concerned of 172 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: individuals ruining it for everybody. Uh, let's you know the thing. 173 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: The thing that's so distasteful I think for a lot 174 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: of people is someone has to stand up and you know, 175 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: like I mentioned earlier, you know, flip the lever, push 176 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: the button, pulled the trigger, and we have always, i think, 177 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: try to and the execution process has kind of evolved 178 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: in our country. Capital punishment has where individuals are seeking 179 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: to do it as humanly as they possibly can. You know, 180 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: and years ago, you know, you had judicial hangings and 181 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: yeah there were botched hangings, but the line share of 182 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: the hangings that occurred were successful. Okay, and I'm talking 183 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: about on the first drop. But you can't imagine. I 184 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: think that a lot of people can't imagine seeing someone 185 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: that is suspended in the air by their neck and 186 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: they're flipping around, and that for many people, that's very distasteful. 187 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 3: Can I ask you something very quickly? Yeah? Sure? All right. 188 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: When I was a child, I didn't know when you 189 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 2: hang that the goal of hanging somebody was you know, 190 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: to snap their neck as they fell. I thought that 191 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: it was to strangle them. I really did. I thought 192 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: like they put the noose on and pretty much just 193 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: put their hands tied behind their back, pulled them up 194 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 2: until they died from you know, their neck being strangled, 195 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: you know, by the rope. I didn't know that it 196 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: was a mathematical thing where they had, you know, took 197 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: the weight, height and everything else into consideration when they 198 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: determined where where the news needed to be fashioned and 199 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: how and all that so that when that individual dropped, 200 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: the neck would snap and it would be very quick. 201 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 3: I didn't know that. Yeah, it don't happen that way, 202 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 3: but I didn't know that was that. 203 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: Was the whole point. And it had been literally perfected 204 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: over a period of time where there was a formula 205 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: that was applied to this. But you know, if you 206 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: go back to Noah, my son had he said, if y'all, 207 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: if y'all, I urge you to sit down and watch 208 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: the movie Napoleon with me and the thing with Joaquin 209 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: Phoenix that came out. I thought it was pretty good. 210 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: It's beautifully filmed, and you watch this thing being played out, 211 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: and during that period of time they had developed a guillotine, 212 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: and the guillotine was regarded as like the perfect killing machine. 213 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: The French were even using it. I think there's a 214 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: wood carving or a lithograph. I can't remember what it 215 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: is of the last guillotining that took place in France. 216 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: I think it was in the nineteen twenties, and it's 217 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: like looking over over a wall, and these were spectacles, 218 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: you know, they as time went by, they had tried 219 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: to prevent the public from actually seeing it, and you know, 220 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: they viewed it back then as I think a lot 221 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: of the ancestors did. As it's not just getting rid 222 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: of the individual and making them punished for this or 223 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: punishing them for what they've done their acts, but it 224 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: was also a matter of deterrence because if it happens 225 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: in a vacuum, you're you know, people don't really believe 226 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: that it happened, or they don't see it. It doesn't 227 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: like ingrain in their memory, and of course that memory 228 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: is passed on to the rest of the family. You know, 229 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: if you have a family that is represented by one individual, 230 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: that one individual is going to go back to their 231 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: family and say, you're not going to believe what I 232 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: just saw, and this is a price that is paid. 233 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: I watched it. I watched them walk them out, I 234 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: watch them strap them to a pole or you know, 235 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: make them kneel before guillotine or whatever the case might be. 236 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: And that information has passed on. So even if there 237 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: were not people from that person's family present to witness this, 238 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: that one individual goes back set forth like a little 239 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: sailing ship, just you know, setting out this information. Individual saying, Man, 240 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: it ain't worth whatever it is that you want to 241 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: do to lose your life over this was horrific. We've 242 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: lost that. That doesn't exist anymore. That's that's why, that's 243 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: kind of why capital punishment is not truly in its 244 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: pure sense, not an effective deterrent, because you know, they 245 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: go into a blockhouse. 246 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, when did they stop doing it in public? Joe? 247 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 3: I mean? And why? 248 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: Well, in the early nineteen hundreds, early twentieth century, you 249 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: had individuals that I think up until the nineteen early 250 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, you had public executions by hanging. I don't 251 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: know much about firing squads in the US. I know 252 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: that they did exist, but there was something that took 253 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: place in the American mind where, yeah, we knew that 254 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: we were going to send people away to prisons. We 255 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: knew that they were there, but it was too I 256 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: don't know if it was vic Torrian sensibilities or Edwardian 257 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: sensibilities that you know that changed the mindset of people 258 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: where they did not want to observe the horror of it. 259 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: And let's face it, early nineteen hundreds were brutal. You 260 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: think about World War One and how brutal it was. 261 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: People had had enough death. They didn't want to see 262 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: it now. They didn't want monsters walking on the street either, 263 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: and so I think that it was at that point 264 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: in time where they you know, they kind of covered, 265 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: you know, concealed this look. The first place I ever 266 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: did autopsies Dave on a regular basis was inside of 267 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: a jail. The morgue was actually inside the parish jail. 268 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: And guess what sat on the site of literally right 269 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: where the morgue was prior to the morgue being there, 270 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: the parish gallows. So even at a county level back then, 271 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: at parish's the same as counties, there were gallows there. 272 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: And I think that they had done a public execution. 273 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: I think the last one my history is getting jumbled, 274 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: but I think it's like in the eighteen seventies or something, 275 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: so it's always been kind of part and parcel of 276 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: what happens here in our judicial system. People don't agree 277 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: with it, and that's okay not to agree with it. 278 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: I have my questions as well, But if you're going 279 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: to do it, if you're going to do it, there 280 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: is a level of exactitude that has to be in 281 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: place with your process. Who's going to handle the weapons, 282 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: how this thing is orchestrated. Because those that want to 283 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: make execution more efficient and humane, all it takes is 284 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: for one screw up and everybody else is going to 285 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 1: have to pay the price relative to this, and then 286 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: you're going to go searching for another methodology. We've come 287 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: through so many now, I mean, let's just think about it. 288 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: California used to have gas chamber. That doesn't exist anymore. 289 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: Cruel and unusual. I got admit it's it's it's kind 290 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: of harsh, all right. You think about the gallows, and 291 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: that's not something that we've seen. One of the things 292 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: that people thought was going to answer this question make 293 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: it humane. Is is actually something that that Thomas Edison 294 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: had a hand in and that's the creation of the 295 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: electric chair. We used it for years and years, but 296 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: there are all these horrible mishaps that occurred along the 297 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: way where it was what they were using was not 298 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: necessarily sufficient to the need. And if you want to 299 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: see the brutality of what happens with electrocution as horrible 300 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: as Ted Bundy was, go look at his at his 301 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: post mortem images and you'll see you'll see how scored 302 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: his his his scalp is, you know. And there are 303 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: all of these stories, some of them might be a 304 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: bit apocryphal, but there are all these stories about people 305 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: catching fire. I'm not saying that the capital punishment is wrong. 306 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: I'm just saying the problem is is that you don't 307 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: know how any one event is going to direct how 308 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: the rest of the country is going to go. We 309 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: get it away from the electric chair and suddenly they 310 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: think that we've got the perfect thing. We're going to 311 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: use lethal injection. Well, how are you going to facilitate 312 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: this if you can't get the drugs and you have 313 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: to have the right you have to have the right 314 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: combination of drugs, and you've got drug companies that won't 315 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: sell you the drugs, and then there's horror stories with 316 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: that and people can't bear watching it. So isn't it funny? 317 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: How now we've kind of come full circle back to 318 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: a methodology that I know we've covered at least to 319 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: one other case far. We've come full circle back to 320 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: methodology involving firearms where an individual is tied anchored to 321 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: a fixed object, in this case in South Carolina chair 322 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: and you literally have a firing squad where you know 323 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: they're going to send lead core projectiles down range to 324 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: pierce your body. Unfortunately, the problem is is that some 325 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: people apparently can't shoot straight. Three to eight Winchester. It 326 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: is arguably one of the most storied rounds of ammunition 327 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: in American history. It's existed, the thirty caliber rifle round 328 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: has existed forever and ever. I've mentioned this before, but 329 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: it bears, you know, repeating that most of the stuff 330 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: that we use in the civilian world, as far as 331 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: firearms go, it evolved out of the utility that the 332 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: military had. And we've got several permutations of the thirty 333 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: caliber round or approximately thirty caliber that go all the 334 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: way back to I think probably the most significant it 335 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,479 Speaker 1: is probably thirty odd to six that was used, and 336 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: there's been several iterations along the way, and we landed 337 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: on three oh eight. Again that designation for people that 338 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 1: don't understand calibers, which can be it can be confusing. 339 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: This is the old British system three oh eight. It 340 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: essentially measures out the circumference of the round. That is, 341 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: how big around is this particular round. So if you 342 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: think about it, it's zero point three eight inches and 343 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: that round in particular is still in use today around 344 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: the world, even in our military. Three oh eight. You know, 345 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: you think about the old M fourteen platform, which you 346 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: know still we use a variant of M fourteen in 347 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: the military because many special ops personnel prefer this round 348 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: over five point five six or the two two three 349 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: caliber because it's more robust. It really packs a wallop. 350 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: But this is where South Carolina landed. They landed on 351 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: three oh eight Winchester. And the way their executions are 352 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: set up, this is strictly a voluntary program where if 353 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: you're part of the correctional system, and I don't mean 354 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: as an inmate, but I mean as an employee. Apparently 355 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: they have and they haven't really explained it. They keep 356 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: some of the stuff veiled you have three volunteers that 357 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: step up and they become the executioners. And so they've 358 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: gone they went a long way to kind of perfect 359 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: I guess, or try to account for any kind of 360 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 1: problems that might arise in an execution. Built out or 361 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: redesigned what's referred to as the death house. They've sent 362 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: out one photo of this thing, and it is actually 363 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: the chair that you can see that the individuals are 364 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: strapped to. And then I guess it's kind of hearkening 365 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: back to the past. They brought in their electric chair 366 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: and there's a picture of it. So you've got the 367 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: firing squad chair there that's facing I would assume towards 368 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: the wall, because if you look behind a veil, you 369 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: can see what appears to be clay stacked up there 370 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: or maybe sandbags that's behind a black curtain, and then 371 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: you've got the electric chair that's literally you're staring at. 372 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: So that's the image that they've put out and it's 373 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: a very tight space. 374 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 3: Dave. 375 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: That's that's one of the things about this that when 376 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: this round, if people out there have not heard a 377 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: three h eight round being discharged, this thing would rattle 378 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: your cage. If you've got three of them going off. 379 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: Just the reverberation of the sound in this environment. It's 380 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: not like firing off a twenty two caliber, which is 381 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: very small, it would really get your attention. But this 382 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: is a very confined space. And I'm really amazed by this. 383 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by this because, you know, you think about 384 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: the old idea of a of a firing squad. I 385 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: think about the Kubrick movie Pass the Glory with Kirk 386 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: Douglas and they marched the guys out. They're strapped to 387 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: a post, they're blindfolded, and you've got a whole line 388 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: of soldiers, one line kneeling in the front, the other 389 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: standing in the back, and they're firing at it. Like 390 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: in this thing, it looks like they're firing at a distance. 391 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: They weren't only talking about fifteen feet five yards, man. 392 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 2: That's a very very small range of fire, Joe. And 393 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 2: the reason we're actually spending time on it today is 394 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 2: because even though it is only five yards fifteen feet, 395 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: there was a problem with this execution. There was a problem. 396 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 2: Now did they have I I'm going to ask you 397 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: because I'm curious. I thought that when they an execution 398 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: was done by firing squad, that several people were dummies 399 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: or you know, they were firing blanks pretty much, that 400 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 2: you had say ten people, of which two or three 401 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 2: you know, had both live action and the rest were not. 402 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 2: And so that no, but he knew exactly who did 403 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 2: the killing, because that seems to. 404 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: Be consider Apparently that's not the way South Carolina is 405 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: doing this, and these people have practiced as well, I. 406 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 2: Would think, so, Joe, and fifteen feet is from you 407 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: know nothing. I mean, that's not a first down in football. 408 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,719 Speaker 1: This is a very short distance. It's nothing. You know, 409 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: you're not cracking off a shot from a thousand yards here. 410 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: And what's really interesting, Dave, is that, you know I 411 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: mentioned the three h eight Winchester A round. This is 412 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: fired through a rifled barrel. Okay, now they don't say 413 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: whether or not the rifles are scoped. I would think 414 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: personally that having at a range of five yards, which 415 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: is just very elemental, I think that a scope would 416 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: probably impede your ability to fire accurately at that short 417 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: of a distance. You'd be much better off with iron sights. 418 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: We're dealing with experts, We're not dealing with people who 419 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 2: are trying to pass their class to get a certification 420 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: to viral weapon. 421 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know what the qualification is other than 422 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: being a volunteer with a correction system. And you know, 423 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: I've met some people that work within the correction system 424 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: and they are many times those individuals are the most 425 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: a few, not all, but they've been the most ardent, 426 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: anti capital punished people that you come around. Because when 427 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: you live in an environment with people day in and 428 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: day out, you know, it really humanizes them. It's easy 429 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: for us on the outside to say, yeah, well we 430 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: need to execute this guy. We need to put him away, 431 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: and he never should breathe any more free air. A 432 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: matter of fact, he shouldn't breathe any air at all. 433 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: We're going to end his life. But they've chosen or 434 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: have volunteers that have come up out of this Corrections officers. Uh, 435 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: tough job, one of the most toughest, one of the 436 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: toughest jobs that you can have, because you're going into 437 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: a lockdown situation every single day. I would suffocate. There 438 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: is no way I could do that job. But because 439 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: your corrections officer does not make you an expert with 440 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: a weapon. You know, I'm thinking you know in the 441 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: state of the state of South Carolina. Uh. One place 442 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,239 Speaker 1: that actually produces some of the greatest marksmen in the 443 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: world is right down the road in Paris Island, South Carolina. 444 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: The United States Marine Corps depot down there, Paris Island, 445 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, Uh, and you could. I'm thinking that probably 446 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: somebody in recruit training, even when they get toward the 447 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: end of it, Uh, they would they would fare much 448 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: better under these circumstances as far as accuracy goes. I 449 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: don't know how much. I don't know how much train up, 450 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: you know, these corrections officers have had, did somebody get nervous? 451 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: But the the big thing here, Dave, is that what 452 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: we're being told is that out of three shooters, you've 453 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: only got two defects or bullet holes in the body. 454 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: And I don't see how in the world you could 455 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: have missed, which is I think one of the big questions. 456 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: And not only miss but even the two that entered 457 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: the body were not center mass shots that took out 458 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: the heart. Which is their rationale in this particular case, 459 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: is that if you can go in in these rounds, 460 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: the three oh eight, it's called a what was it 461 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: called again, it's an urban. This particular type of mo 462 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: is a it's like an urban ammunition, ground tap urban ammunition. 463 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: And just so we understand what happens when that round 464 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: strikes dave not to be it's not a through and 465 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: through round. You're not looking. It's not like what you 466 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: would hunt deer with. Necessarily, you're talking about something that 467 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: because they're talking about there's an urban designation on this. 468 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: The idea is that this is like a police sniper 469 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: around that goes in. The projectile actually fragments upon impact 470 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: and it sends these little sharps or the body. And 471 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: what happens is if you're aiming center mass of the heart. 472 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: So if everybody will find their sternum and move just slightly, 473 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: it's not all the way over as far as you 474 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: can go on the left side of the body. Just 475 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: find your sternum, that flat bone right in the center 476 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: of your chest. Move over about an inch and you're 477 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: right on top of your heart. Okay, it's inferior to 478 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: where your sternum is, the sternoclovicular notch up there. Just 479 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: go down about two or three inches and then over 480 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: to the left slightly and you're right on target. They 481 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: missed they missed that area with a rifle round. 482 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: From five yards away, Joe fifteen feet. The only other 483 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 2: person with any kind of marksmen experience that could miss 484 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 2: that shot would be Lee Harvey Oswald. I mean, that's 485 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 2: about it. Everybody else is going to hit something. But 486 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 2: in this case, we have three shooters or three bullets 487 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: coming towards the subject, and you only have two that 488 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 2: they can say definitively entered. Two of the bullets entered 489 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 2: this man's body, and they did not enter in the heart. 490 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 2: Did they not draw an exit the circle around it? 491 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 3: You know? Mark? 492 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: Well, here's one of the things that we're hearing. There's 493 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: actually a marker that is placed on the body. And 494 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: again they haven't demonstrated to us in the public what 495 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: this marker looks like. Okay, I've seen, I've seen, you know, 496 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: it's generally portrayed. Well, it's portrayed. Actually, I think I've 497 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: seen newsreels with this from World War Two where they're 498 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: executing war crimes people. Most of those were executed by 499 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: by hanging, but there are some and you'll see there's 500 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: like a white patch of cloth that is pinned approximating 501 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: the heart. Okay, you know, you know where it is, 502 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: and there's actually a physician there. This is the thing 503 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: about it. You've got a physician there that has a stethoscope. 504 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: My question is is the is the physician involved in 505 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: placement of the patch? And I know that some people 506 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: might say, well, that would violate the hipocratic oath. You know, well, 507 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: I don't think that it would. As a matter of fact, 508 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: I think it's an extension of mercy because if you 509 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: know that this is going to happen, there's nothing you 510 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: can do about it. So if you zero in on 511 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: that area, you have a physician or nurse that stand 512 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: there with the stethoscope, they can actually appreciate and locate 513 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,720 Speaker 1: the exact location of the heart and they say, okay, guys, 514 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: put the patch right here. All right, no question about 515 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: it at this point in time. But there has been 516 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: comment There have been comments made that would indicate that 517 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 1: the patch was misplaced. But even even if it is misplaced, two, 518 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: I would assume to the left, like further away from 519 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: the heart, then you're still even in that location. I 520 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: can't imagine out of the three shooters you're gonna you're 521 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: gonna have what's referred to as a flyer and if 522 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: you ever go to the range, and particularly with handguns, 523 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: people will have flyers every now and then, and that 524 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 1: means that when you fire, you have a bullet or 525 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: projectile that completely misses the target. You rarely see that 526 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: at a range of five yards. I know in law enforcement, 527 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,240 Speaker 1: I qualified twice a year with a handgun and five yards. 528 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: I think now we have a three yard range as well. 529 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: But five yards is really nothing. You know, if you're 530 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: shooting center mass, which are taught to do center mass 531 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: at a static target. This guy's static. He ain't moving anywhere, okay, 532 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: and so you have a weapon that is meant to 533 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: hit the target at long range. It's high velocity. I'm 534 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: failing to understand what happened. What's fascinating about this day 535 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: is that the corner for this particular county and this happens. 536 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: I've been involved in autopsies involving executed individuals. The corner 537 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: in this particular county is assigned to request the examination 538 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: of the dead. This is a homicide, okay, there's no 539 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 1: other way. You know, you and I have spent a 540 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: lot of time recently talking about manner and cause of death. 541 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: There's no other way you can classify this. Okay, this 542 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: is a homicide. Even though it's state sanctioned, this is 543 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: a homicide. So in most states, if you have a 544 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: violent homicide like this, it's required that you do an autopsy. 545 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: And there's another reason you need to do it on 546 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: somebody that is dying at the hands of state. It's 547 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,479 Speaker 1: going to be thorough. It's the most thorough autopsy you've 548 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: ever seen. I mean things places in the body are 549 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: dissected that we would not normally do. It takes a 550 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: long time to conduct one of these autopsies. But apparently 551 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: the pathologists that did the autopsy on this case opined 552 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: that two of the rounds entered the body at the 553 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: same spot. Okay, now, I've seen this happen by an 554 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: individual firing at close range with a handgun and they 555 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: score two hits in the same defect. But and it's 556 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: pretty you can still delineate it. Sometimes they're not perfectly 557 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: matched up. But you've got a physician that's saying pathologists 558 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: that's saying that none, no, no, we've got two rounds 559 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: that enter the same location, and we've got a second one, 560 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: you know, that is off by itself. The problem is 561 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: is that they don't go into a lot of scriptors 562 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: as to what organ systems were impacted. I can only 563 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 1: assume that perhaps the lung, the left lung, and it 564 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: has been implied at least that the heart was clipped 565 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: in some way by one of these rounds, but it 566 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: was not to the point where death was instantaneous, because 567 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: what the report is is that as soon as the 568 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: order was given for the squad to fire simultaneously. Witnesses 569 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: stated that this guy being executed screamed out simultaneously, as 570 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: he's not screaming out in pain at that moment time, 571 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: he is screaming out okay, and he is shot. Well 572 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:41,399 Speaker 1: about forty seconds later, they heard him moan. Okay, most 573 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: of the time with an execution where somebody has shot 574 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: center mass into the heart, they're not going to make 575 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 1: another move. They're dead. That's the efficiency of firing squads. Okay, 576 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 1: that's not what happened. Forty seconds later they heard him moan, 577 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: and approximate a total of seventy seconds after the actual shooting, 578 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: he's heard to kind of whimper again and then dies. 579 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: That's not what you want in an execution, okay, you 580 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: want this thing to be sudden and swift and merciful. 581 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: And I know people are saying, well, he doesn't deserve mercy. 582 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 1: I understand that. But the argument here is the following. 583 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: If a group of people screw this up, then you're 584 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: going to be out walking around the weeds looking for 585 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 1: another means of execution. I mean, what we're going to do. 586 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 1: We're going back to the guillotine now, you know, because 587 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,760 Speaker 1: this case, Dave, and there's already been a lawsuit filed, 588 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that in just a second, this 589 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: case from now on regarding capital punishment is going to 590 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: be cited. Okay, It'll be cited as being cruel and unusual, 591 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: all right. So it's the idea, it's the idea of 592 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: these individuals not doing their job effectively that's problematic. The 593 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 1: family retained the services of a fellow that I've personally met, 594 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: that I've known. Matter of fact, he was I think 595 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 1: he was. He was actually in to become the chief 596 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: medical Examiner in Atlanta. That's how I met him, and 597 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 1: I was working there. His name's Jonathan Arden, and he 598 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: was he was a medical examiner with the Office of 599 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: Chief Medical Examiner in New York. I think he was 600 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. As well, two major offices. And 601 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: this guy is really he's really sharp, hell of a 602 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 1: nice guy and very proficient at what he does. But 603 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, Dave, he he actually stated he got to 604 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: review all of these materials. And the big thing about 605 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: it is this, he said that there were no X 606 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: rays done, The detail in the autopsy with the wound 607 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: tracks was not to his way of thinking, was not 608 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: sufficiently described, and they didn't examine the clothing. Now, you 609 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: don't examine the clothing on a gunfire related death. You're 610 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: going to skew your data. Okay, there's no mention of it. 611 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: According to doctor Art. 612 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 3: What's the purpose for doing the clothing? 613 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,439 Speaker 1: Well, okay, let's think. Let's just think about it this way. 614 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 3: Brother. 615 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: If you've got if you've got somebody wearing a scrub top, 616 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: you know, like many prisoners do you know, having an 617 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: orange orange jumpsuits or scrubtops or whatever, that clothing from 618 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: a forensic standpoint, is like another layer of skin. Okay, So, 619 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: and this could apply to knife wounds as well. But 620 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: when you you fire three through it, it will be 621 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: a another indicator of point of impact relative to a round. 622 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 1: And you haven't examined the clothing. I mean, that's like 623 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: forensic pathology one O one. You know, before you actually 624 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: ever strip the body down, you're going to take detailed 625 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,919 Speaker 1: photographs of everything that the person was wearing while they're 626 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: still wearing it, okay, and you to try to orient everything. 627 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 3: Okay. 628 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 2: And then you said, no X rays, why not take 629 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 2: you're doing an autopsy, why not do X rays? 630 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: I don't understand that. And here's here's another thing that 631 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: comes in with the three O eight round. What did 632 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,439 Speaker 1: I say earlier? And you had actually reminded me of this. 633 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: This is not like my revelation here you actually had 634 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: had It's a fragmented round. And you know the beauty 635 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: of fragmented rounds that are demonstrated on X ray. It's 636 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: it's shocking, you know when you this, because when you 637 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: open up a body, all right, just so folks understand, 638 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: when you open up a body and it's been greatly traumatized, 639 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: you're going to see a mass of hemorrhage, pulled blood, 640 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: ripped tissue, all those sorts of things. X rays cut 641 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: through all of that. You don't see that mass hemorrhage. 642 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: What you see, particularly with a fragmented round, which is 643 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: the intention of this urban round, that you will see 644 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: a little lead storm, okay, and it will be if 645 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: the bullet acts like it does not all bullets. It's 646 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 1: just like Holow points. All Holow points don't necessarily deploy, okay. 647 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: Sometimes they'll just pass right through the body. The hope 648 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: is that it will deploy and it doesn't exit out 649 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: and harm somebody else. That's the point of the sniper round. 650 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: So if you shoot somebody and they're in a window 651 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: and they're holding hostages, you want the round to wind 652 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 1: up in their body and not penetrate the body, but 653 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: you want to kill them so that you know the 654 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: hostages get hurt. It doesn't pass through another wall and 655 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: into another home or somebody bystander or something like that. 656 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 1: The extra here is mind blowing or the absence of it, 657 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,240 Speaker 1: and Arden makes reference to that. He also makes reference 658 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,240 Speaker 1: to the idea that out of all of his years 659 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: of doing autopsies, and I can tell you his count 660 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: is huge, all right, he has. It's such a rare 661 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: occurrence that you would have two rounds go through the 662 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: same defect in the body. You know, it's a real 663 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: head scratcher, you know, as far as I guess, as 664 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: far as doctor Arden is going. 665 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 2: To ask you something that Joe, yeah, man, if there 666 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 2: are two again marksmen, all three are, I'm going to 667 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 2: assume they are marksmen, that these are good shots, even 668 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 2: though it is only five yards away. I'm going to 669 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 2: assume they've done their homework and these three cats are 670 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 2: we don't worry about them hitting the target. But to 671 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,800 Speaker 2: have two bullets go into the same track, that means 672 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,960 Speaker 2: that all three of them missed the mark, and that 673 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,720 Speaker 2: two of them missed the mark in the exact same spot. 674 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 2: I would buy it more if they were in the 675 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 2: right spot, that there were two going in there. 676 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 3: That would make a whole lot more sense to me 677 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 3: than missing. 678 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, we come back to this idea of placement of 679 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 1: the marker. Was the marker misplaced and they happened to 680 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: hit the same spot through the marker, and because of 681 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: the anatomical disorientation here, you know, you you happen to 682 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 1: have two really good shots that were off target. And 683 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's that's hugely problematic here, because you 684 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: want to be able to think at the end of 685 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,200 Speaker 1: the day that people that do research on these sorts 686 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: of things as gruesome as it is, but it is 687 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,879 Speaker 1: it's something that we study. You begin to think about 688 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: effectiveness of rounds that are being utilized for a variety 689 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,319 Speaker 1: of different purposes, in this case, ending the life of 690 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: a cop killer who took this poor man out in 691 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 1: the shed that he and his wife new wife had 692 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: built with their hands, shoots him eight nine times, saturates 693 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 1: his body in diesel fuel, and sets him on fire. Well, 694 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: the problem I think arises is that, to me, in 695 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: one way, your lack of preparedness and your lack of 696 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: attention to detail dishonors his memory. Just think about that, 697 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 1: just for a second, because you cannot be efficient enough 698 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 1: to be counted upon to do your job. That's seventy 699 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:55,279 Speaker 1: seconds that this individual lived after the shooting could be 700 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 1: seventy seconds that might change the way we all view 701 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 1: capital punishment. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags 702 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:09,719 Speaker 1: h