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Speaker 1: Pushkin. The Happiness Lab has just turned five years old.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to believe, but our first series went out

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Speaker 1: in the fall of twenty nineteen. Since then, we've made

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Speaker 1: a couple hundred episodes and say to all of you

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Speaker 1: out there, we've racked up more than one hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty million doubtloads. We don't have much data on how

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Speaker 1: much happiness this has sparked, but I think it's probably

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Speaker 1: a ton. We've certainly tackled a lot of topics and

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Speaker 1: talked to some amazing people. But to celebrate these five years,

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Speaker 1: I've picked five episodes from the archive that holds a

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Speaker 1: special place in my heart. My producer, Ryan Dilly, has

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Speaker 1: been with me every step of this half decade journey.

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Speaker 1: So Ryan, tell me what the first show out of

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Speaker 1: the archive is.

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Speaker 2: So it's an episode called Mistakingly Seeking Solid Shoot, it's

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Speaker 2: from our very first season. So why did you have

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Speaker 2: me grab this particular episode?

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Speaker 1: Picked this episode because it's one of my favorite episodes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, which is always hard for me to say.

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Speaker 1: I love all my episodes. They're like children to me,

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Speaker 1: and so you have to love all of them. So

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Speaker 1: Mistakenly Singing Solitude is an episode about what we get

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Speaker 1: wrong when it comes to human connection, and in particular

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Speaker 1: our assumption that solitude, not chatting with people, enjoying our

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Speaker 1: space by ourselves, is maybe the right path to happiness,

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Speaker 1: when all the research seems to suggest that we'd be

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Speaker 1: much happier if we reached out to other people. But

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Speaker 1: this is genuinely one of my favorite. When I get asked,

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Speaker 1: you know, what are some of my favorite ones, this

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Speaker 1: one comes up at the top, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. I really loved the science part.

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Speaker 1: It includes one of my favorite overall scientific guests, Nick Applee.

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Speaker 1: But it was also one of the first episodes that

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Speaker 1: we've recorded, I think the first episode that we recorded together,

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Speaker 1: right yeah, And I.

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Speaker 2: Guess it was also the first time you went on

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Speaker 2: a solo recording journey out in the field. You bet

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Speaker 2: the inventor of the ATM, didn't you, And you found

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Speaker 2: that immediately as a recalled, you found the woes of

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Speaker 2: being an audio producer, Right, Yes, that.

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Speaker 1: Was a trip that I got to take to Texas

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Speaker 1: to meet Don Walt's the inventor of the ATM, and

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Speaker 1: he had a lovely house. He actually let me journey

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Speaker 1: to his house so that I could record with him

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Speaker 1: at his house live. But his house had lots of clocks,

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Speaker 1: like he collected Google clocks that all kind of seemed

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Speaker 1: to go off at really random times, which was lovely.

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Speaker 1: It sounded beautiful, but it did not make for very

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Speaker 1: clean audio.

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Speaker 3: If I re call.

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Speaker 2: We made the best of it. I think it was

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Speaker 2: really lovely though, but yeah, there was lots and lots

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Speaker 2: of clocks going off. Since we've recorded this, you know,

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Speaker 2: five years ago, society seems to have gone in the

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Speaker 2: wrong direction since the episode aired. Whenever I get on

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Speaker 2: a train, I always lament the fact that there were

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Speaker 2: quiet cars still, but there are no chatty cars, which

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Speaker 2: is something we talk about. The chatty car is where

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Speaker 2: you can go to meet your fellow commuteritis and actually

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Speaker 2: get to know them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all a little bit depressing. I mean, when

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Speaker 1: we made the episode, I'd hope the idea for the

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Speaker 1: chatty car would resonate and some company would take it

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Speaker 1: on and we'd all have like you know, trains now

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Speaker 1: that everyone was chatting and stuff. But it didn't seem

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Speaker 1: to happen, And so I think that's another one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that I loved this episode so much is

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Speaker 1: that I think it matters now just as much as

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Speaker 1: it did five years ago when we first put the

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Speaker 1: episode out. So given all of that, here is possibly

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Speaker 1: my favorite ever Happiness Lab episode. Mistakenly Seeking Solitude.

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Speaker 4: The fighting in the streets of Saigon during the New

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Speaker 4: Year or Test Offensive made the war.

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Speaker 5: Too real tonight.

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Speaker 4: I have ordered aircraft and our naval vessels to make

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Speaker 4: no attacks on North Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: It's nineteen sixty eight, a pretty tumultuous year had wrapped

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Speaker 1: in the combat.

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Speaker 6: Ban agting helped the crock the road Now officers also

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Speaker 6: reportedly chased and fired on a radio equipped.

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Speaker 5: Cark and very good negotiators.

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Speaker 3: Certainly not optimistic about one hundred Peter League that one

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Speaker 3: Tumar Tumar wounded great.

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Speaker 1: But there was one event in nineteen sixty eight that

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Speaker 1: didn't make the headlines even though it's still having a

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Speaker 1: huge effect on your well being.

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Speaker 4: I had to wait, wait, wait, and I really got

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Speaker 4: a little bit averrogage because I knew I had the

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Speaker 4: money there, so all I had to do is, you know,

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Speaker 4: cashy check and get out of there.

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Speaker 1: This is Don Wetzel calling a fateful day in November

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Speaker 1: of that year when he was trying to do something simple.

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Speaker 1: He just wanted to withdraw some cash at his bank.

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Speaker 4: I was scheduled to take a trip on a Monday

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Speaker 4: morning on so on Friday, on the lunch hour, I

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Speaker 4: went to my bank to get some money. I would

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Speaker 4: say maybe eight to ten people in line. My guess is,

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Speaker 4: you know, maybe I was in that line for like

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Speaker 4: eighteen to twenty minutes just to cash and check.

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Speaker 1: Don's time was really valuable. He was a talented engineer

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Speaker 1: and vice president of a technology company that was on

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Speaker 1: the hunt for a new business. But instead of problem

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Speaker 1: solving at his desk at work, he was stuck in

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Speaker 1: a bank lobby.

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Speaker 4: So my job was to come up with one or

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Speaker 4: more new products, and I was getting nowhere.

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Speaker 1: Half a century later, we still share Don's misery. We're

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Speaker 1: stuck in lines all the time, when we wait for

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Speaker 1: coffee in a cafe, when we stand on a crowded

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Speaker 1: train platform, when we get stuck for hours in airport security.

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Speaker 1: We know exactly what he was feeling watching time slip

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Speaker 1: through his fingers. My brother Aaron wrote a book called

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Speaker 1: how Many Licks? Hey, Hey, Santo's How's it going? Or

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Speaker 1: How to estimate damn near anything. I asked him to

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Speaker 1: calculate for us how much time we're likely to spend

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Speaker 1: waiting in line over our entire lifetimes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I think the number one came up with

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Speaker 2: was seven thousand hours.

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Speaker 1: Seven thousand hours waiting in line. That's more than six

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Speaker 1: months of our life stuck in some cue. That's crazy,

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Speaker 1: right With seven thousand hours, you could take a massive vacation.

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Speaker 1: You could learn a new instrument, or a new language,

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Speaker 1: or a new sport. But you're not doing any of that.

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Speaker 1: You're just waiting, staring at the back of someone's head,

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Speaker 1: and it sucks. We tell ourselves that standing in line

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Speaker 1: is an awful, annoying, happiness straining waste of time. But

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Speaker 1: what if we could see that line not has a

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Speaker 1: huge pain in the butt, but as an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: be happier. Our minds are constantly telling us what to

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Speaker 1: do to be happy. What if our minds are wrong?

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Speaker 1: What if our minds are lying to us, leading us

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Speaker 1: away from what will really make us happy. The good

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Speaker 1: news is that understanding the science of the mind can

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Speaker 1: point us all back in the right direction. You're listening

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Speaker 1: to the Happiness Lab with me, doctor Laurie Santos.

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Speaker 5: Hey.

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Speaker 1: Don Don Wetzel doesn't have the same name recognition as

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Speaker 1: Thomas Edison or Steve Jobs, but he's an inventor too,

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Speaker 1: and it turns out his irritation with waiting in line

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Speaker 1: led to a creation that revolutionized the financial sector. It

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Speaker 1: has also completely changed the daily routines of ordinary people

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Speaker 1: around the world. Before I met Don, I had a

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Speaker 1: certain image of him in my mind. I rang the doorbell,

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Speaker 1: expecting to meet a slick, self important inventor guy. But

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Speaker 1: then ninety year old Don welcomed me into the cozy

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Speaker 1: Dallas home that he shares with his wife, Eleanor, and

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Speaker 1: I realized Don wasn't the Elon Musk type I had imagined.

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Speaker 4: Well, I've delighted your ear.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Don was like the friendliest grandpa you've ever met. I

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Speaker 1: sat with Don and Eleanor in their living room, which

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Speaker 1: was filled with comfy pillows, smiling photos of their twelve children,

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Speaker 1: and clocks, lots of clocks. They were lovely, but clocks

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Speaker 1: are kind of the nemesis of the podcaster. And wait

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Speaker 1: till this answer stops at a second, and I'll finish up.

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Speaker 6: I can stop that no, that's okay.

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Speaker 1: The clocks are kind of fitting though, because Don understands

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Speaker 1: the value of time. In fact, it was that feeling

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Speaker 1: of wasted time back in nineteen sixty eight that led

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Speaker 1: to his life changing idea.

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Speaker 4: So, while I was in line, I thought, seems to

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Speaker 4: me a teller's job mostly is cashy chick and taken deposits.

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Speaker 4: So I just got the idea that, hm, I think

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Speaker 4: a machine could do that.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Don had just dreamed up the ATM, the

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Speaker 1: automated teller machine that millions upon millions of busy people

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Speaker 1: use every day nowadays. The idea of an ATM seems

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Speaker 1: really obvious, but Don faced a lot of resistance. When

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Speaker 1: he first pitched the idea.

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Speaker 4: On the board of our company. There was a banker.

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Speaker 4: He thought it was the dumbest idea he had ever heard.

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Speaker 4: He said, we have tellers to do that. Has anybody

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Speaker 4: told you that?

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Speaker 5: Yet?

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Speaker 4: You know, we do have tellers that do exactly what

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Speaker 4: you're saying your machine can do, So why you think

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Speaker 4: anybody would buy this?

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Speaker 1: That board member wasn't entirely crazy. There had been earlier

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Speaker 1: attempts at automated bank machines and they'd all failed, including

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Speaker 1: one that took deposits. It's inventor, Luther Simjion lamented the

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Speaker 1: only people using the machine were prostitutes and gamblers who

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Speaker 1: didn't want to deal with the teller face to face.

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Speaker 1: The genius of Don's ATM is that it won the

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Speaker 1: trust of millions of regular customers who loved its convenience.

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Speaker 4: You know, everybody prefers to get things done quicker, and

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Speaker 4: you know, the ATM was a quick and easy way

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Speaker 4: anybody could use an ATM, really, because it's very simple.

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Speaker 4: Stick the card in, key in your pin number, and bingo,

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Speaker 4: here comes the money if you got it in the bank,

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Speaker 4: of course.

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Speaker 1: But now in hindsight, can you see that this started,

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Speaker 1: you know, in some ways a revolution of convenience?

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Speaker 4: Well, I never thought of it that way, really, Laurie.

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Speaker 4: Now I'll tell you a story about that. You know,

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Speaker 4: I had to come up with a forecast as to

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Speaker 4: how many of these ATMs were going to sell, and

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Speaker 4: I felt like we could sell four thousand of these machines.

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Speaker 1: I think there might have been four thousand just in

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Speaker 1: the in the airport where I was just at DFW today.

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Speaker 4: Well, at the latest report that I heard throughout the world.

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Speaker 4: They estimate there is one point three million ATMs installed nowadays.

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Speaker 1: But the real success of the ATM, according to Don,

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Speaker 1: is that it improves people's well being. It gets them

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Speaker 1: out of those annoying lines.

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Speaker 4: It just made sense that nobody wanted to wait in

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Speaker 4: the tell A line like I did, so it makes

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Speaker 4: every bank customer happy to get in and get out

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Speaker 4: and do some other things.

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Speaker 1: A bit more free time is something we all need,

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Speaker 1: and down simple idea has probably freed up millions, possibly

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Speaker 1: billions of hours the world over. But it turns out

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Speaker 1: there's an awful downside to all this convenience and save time,

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Speaker 1: one that are lying minds don't even realize. Don Wetzel's

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Speaker 1: intuition was that most people want a bit of extra

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Speaker 1: free time, then it'll make us happier, and the science

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Speaker 1: backs him up. Simply put, we all feel way too

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Speaker 1: busy today. Many of us experience what scientists call time famine.

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Speaker 1: We're literally starving for time, and that famished feeling has

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Speaker 1: a negative effect on our well being. In fact, people

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Speaker 1: who report feelings short on time are more likely to

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Speaker 1: be depressed, anxious, and less happy than people who feel

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Speaker 1: like they have lots of free time. Psychologists have even

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Speaker 1: come up with a term for that amazing feeling you

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Speaker 1: get when, say, a meeting is canceled and you suddenly

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Speaker 1: have a free hour you didn't expect. We call it

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Speaker 1: time affluence, and those rare moments when we feel wealthy

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Speaker 1: in time can make us feel amazing. It's one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that every once in a while, I sometimes

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Speaker 1: surprise my Yale students by canceling my Happiness class, and

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Speaker 1: their reactions show just how important a little unexpected time

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Speaker 1: off can be. One student even burst into tears. She

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Speaker 1: said it was the first time she had an hour

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Speaker 1: off all semester. She'd almost forgotten what it was like

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Speaker 1: to have some free time, so adding even a few

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Speaker 1: extra minutes to our perceived time banks can feel really good.

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Speaker 1: But recent studies also suggest something rather intuitive. That is,

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Speaker 1: we misestimate just how busy we really are. While there's

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Speaker 1: lots of work showing that we feel busier than ever before,

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Speaker 1: there is very little evidence showing that we actually are busier,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of weird. It's as though our minds

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Speaker 1: tell us we're super busy all the time, but in

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Speaker 1: reality it's not as bad as we think. But there's

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Speaker 1: another even more insidious way our mind leads us astray

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Speaker 1: when we try to save some time. It turns out

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Speaker 1: there's an opportunity cost that comes from avoiding those bank lines,

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Speaker 1: and the cost is a social one. Long lines are frustrating,

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Speaker 1: but they're also an opportunity to be around other people,

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Speaker 1: and the sheer amount of time we spend around other

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Speaker 1: people actually predicts how happy we are. Take one famous

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Speaker 1: study by positive psychologists Ed Diner and Marty Selliban. They

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Speaker 1: looked at people who scored in the highest tenth percentile

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Speaker 1: on happiness surveys and try to figure out what makes

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Speaker 1: them so much happier than the rest of us. The

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Speaker 1: researchers discover the these happy people didn't spend any more

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Speaker 1: time exercising or doing religious activities. What did these happy

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Speaker 1: folks do differently? They were more social. They spent more

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Speaker 1: time around other humans than people with average levels of happiness.

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Speaker 1: The results were so strong that these researchers deemed being

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Speaker 1: around other people as a necessary condition for very high happiness.

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Speaker 1: Another study by Nobel Prize winning psychologist Danny Kanneman confirmed this.

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Speaker 1: He and his colleagues tested which daily activities make us

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Speaker 1: feel best the winner socializing with others. It's better than eating, shopping, relaxing,

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Speaker 1: or even watching TV. Just being with other people makes

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Speaker 1: us feel good, even if those people are strangers.

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Speaker 6: There are lots of sources of well being standing around you.

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Speaker 6: You just have to tap into them.

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Speaker 1: My friend Nick Epley is a professor of behavioral science

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Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business.

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Speaker 6: Happiness isn't about the intensity of experiences that we have,

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Speaker 6: It's about the frequency of them. Happiness is like is

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Speaker 6: like a you know, a leaky tire on your car.

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Speaker 6: You don't have a nice conversation with somebody and then

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Speaker 6: are happy forever. But if you're having a nice conversation

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Speaker 6: with somebody on a plane, that plane ride is more

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Speaker 6: enjoyable than it would have been otherwise. But then you know,

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Speaker 6: once you're off the plane ride, you know your tire

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Speaker 6: goes flat a little bit. You got to do something

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Speaker 6: else to pump it back up. And so I find

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Speaker 6: a lot of these conversations are like, are like, uh,

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Speaker 6: you know, air compressors for my tires.

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Speaker 1: Next studies why we're so resistant to being more social?

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Speaker 1: Why don't we take more time to fill up our

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Speaker 1: leaky happiness tires with a quick conversation.

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Speaker 6: People get the consequences of social interaction wrong, particularly with strangers.

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Speaker 6: Not engaging in conversation with somebody else gives you a

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Speaker 6: cost somewhere else, and people don't always seem to recognize that.

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Speaker 1: It turns out the cost of not being social, not

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Speaker 1: taking enough time to connect with other people is that

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Speaker 1: it makes us feel pretty awful.

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Speaker 6: Feeling lonely or isolated, just kind.

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Speaker 1: Of loneliness is now a growing epidemic around the world.

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Speaker 1: People today report feeling lonely at double the rate they

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Speaker 1: did in the nineteen eighties. Take college campuses like where

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Speaker 1: I work at Yale Nationally in the US, right now,

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Speaker 1: over sixty percent of college students report feeling very lonely

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Speaker 1: most of the time. This is higher than in any

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Speaker 1: other previous generation.

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Speaker 6: A stressor like that impairs your well being at it

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Speaker 6: impairs your health.

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Speaker 1: Recent research shows that the physical consequences of our increased

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Speaker 1: loneliness are staggering. Feeling isolated is said to be as

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Speaker 1: bad for our health as smoking fifteen cigarettes a day.

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Speaker 1: If loneliness had a health warning, it would sound like

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Speaker 1: this may cause increase risk of inflammation, disrupt its leap

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Speaker 1: abnormal immune responses, depression, anxiety, higher stress levels, early cognitive decline, alcoholism,

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Speaker 1: cardiovascular disease, stroke, Alzheimer's, diabetes, suicide, and even early dine.

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Speaker 1: So what can we do to fight this loneliness epidemic. Well,

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Speaker 1: you can get a few hints from people who don't

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Speaker 1: feel all that lonely, people like Eleanor Wetzel.

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Speaker 3: I'm half extrovert and half introvert, and so that part

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Speaker 3: of my personality enjoys the connection with people.

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Speaker 1: From the moment Don Wetzel's wife welcomed me into her home,

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Speaker 1: it was obvious that this old fashioned grandmother was the

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Speaker 1: opposite of lonely. She was one of the most sociable

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Speaker 1: people I had met in a while. She had a

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Speaker 1: story for everything, including how she met Don.

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Speaker 3: It was a blind date, so we were starting at zero,

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Speaker 3: and I think there was just a chemistry there.

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Speaker 1: I had planned to spend only thirty minutes or so

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Speaker 1: on this interview, but I ended up chatting with Eleanor

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Speaker 1: for over two hours. We talked about our families, while

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Speaker 1: her life was like growing up, how she was able

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Speaker 1: to raise so many children and other stuff too. I

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Speaker 1: asked what her secret was, how did she connect with

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Speaker 1: people so easily. It turns out she just chats with

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Speaker 1: strangers whenever she can.

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Speaker 3: I had no problem with wrecked eye content and smiles,

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Speaker 3: and you know, that's that's who we are, that's how

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Speaker 3: you relate to people. But I can see a lot

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Speaker 3: of downers with the technology that we have available. The

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Speaker 3: ATM doesn't smile back at you, marvel or showing me

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Speaker 3: their pretty eyes or whatever. So we don't want to

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Speaker 3: lose all of that.

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Speaker 1: It's true that Don's ATMs have given us back time,

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Speaker 1: but they've also robbed us of an important opportunity to

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Speaker 1: connect with human tellers and our fellow bank customers. They

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Speaker 1: steal one of the small chances we have each day

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Speaker 1: to fill up our leaky happiness tires with a quick conversation,

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Speaker 1: which is why Eleanor has taken a relatively shocking stance

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Speaker 1: on ATMs.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've actually never used one period.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Eleanor has never used an ATM, even though

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Speaker 1: her husband is the guy that invented them. She just

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Speaker 1: prefers to chat with the teller.

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Speaker 3: I don't think we even know yet how much he's

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Speaker 3: being lost without that interaction of human beings, the whole bit.

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Speaker 3: There's just there's so many components. I wouldn't even have

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Speaker 3: time to go into all of them, and I'm sure

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Speaker 3: I haven't even thought of all of them.

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Speaker 1: Eleanor's right here, we're automating the humans out of everything.

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Speaker 1: Take music, for example. Back in nineteen sixty eight, if

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Speaker 1: Eleanor wanted to hear a new song, she'd have to

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Speaker 1: interact with a bunch of people. She'd have to find

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Speaker 1: a record store, ask the clerk where to find that

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Speaker 1: new song, stand in line with other folks to buy it,

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Speaker 1: and only then could she drive home with her kids

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Speaker 1: to throw it on her record player. But today it's different.

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Speaker 3: Who is this Alexa that you can do everything for you?

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Speaker 1: Every new automated convenience we introduce into our lives has

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Speaker 1: a cost, and that cost, all too often is a

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Speaker 1: social one. The problem is it's not often a cost

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Speaker 1: we even realize. The question is why. But first we

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Speaker 1: need some music to send us into the break. So

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Speaker 1: let's tease what's coming up next, Alexa, play anything by

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Speaker 1: the Talking Heads.

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Speaker 5: I'm having trouble connecting.

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Speaker 1: To the internet. Oh, I'm so sorry. Give me a moment,

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab will be right back.

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Speaker 6: I ride the train into Chicago every day to my

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Speaker 6: office in Hyde Park from one of the far southside suburbs,

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Speaker 6: and every day I get on the train and I

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Speaker 6: was seeing exactly the same kind of phenomena I'd seen

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Speaker 6: it for years.

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Speaker 1: Science begins with observation, and Nick ePIE observes something on

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Speaker 1: his daily commute that is so commonplace yet so odd

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Speaker 1: when you really think about it.

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Speaker 6: Where people would get on sit down next to their neighbors,

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Speaker 6: perfectly decent, lovely people going into Chicago to work for

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Speaker 6: the day. They would sit down, cheek to jowl next

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Speaker 6: to somebody else, and they would then ignore each other

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Speaker 6: for forty five minutes.

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Speaker 1: Most train cars are full of people, which means they're

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Speaker 1: also full of knowledge, stories and jokes, but most are

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Speaker 1: also deathly quiet.

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Speaker 6: I mean, almost nobody ever talks on the train. The

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Speaker 6: question is why.

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Speaker 1: Nick decided to test this. He recruited passengers sharing his

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Speaker 1: commute to work, dividing them into three different groups or conditions,

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Speaker 1: as we researchers call them. He asked each group to

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Speaker 1: act in a certain way while they were on the train.

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Speaker 6: The one condition we told them to keep to themselves,

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Speaker 6: just focus on their day ahead, don't engage others around

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Speaker 6: you in conversation this morning. Second condition, we asked them

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Speaker 6: to do whatever they normally do, which is typically the

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Speaker 6: same as what happens in the solitude condition, almost nobody

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Speaker 6: talks to strangers on the train. And in the third condition,

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Speaker 6: we asked them to do something radical. We asked them

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Speaker 6: to try to make a connection with the person who

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Speaker 6: sits down next to you this morning on the train.

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Speaker 6: Try to get to know something about him or her,

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Speaker 6: so they were going to have a conversation.

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Speaker 1: Let's think about these different groups for a second. Which

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Speaker 1: one would you be happiest in the groups in which

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Speaker 1: you could enjoy your solitude or the one that forced

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Speaker 1: you to talk to a complete stranger. You might naturally

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Speaker 1: have a pretty strong intuition here, but I bet that

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Speaker 1: intuition is wrong.

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Speaker 6: People reported the most positive commute in the connection condition,

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Speaker 6: less positive in the control condition, and least positive in

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Speaker 6: the solitude condition, where they kept to themselves.

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Speaker 1: Being forced to talk with a stranger was far and

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Speaker 1: away the most pleasurable experience. Simply making a connection with

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Speaker 1: someone we don't know makes us feel really Good nixed

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Speaker 1: out on this very same study. In a number of

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Speaker 1: different contexts, on city buses and cabs, at the airport,

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Speaker 1: in waiting rooms, they all find the same result. People

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Speaker 1: are happiest when they're being social with someone. But what

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Speaker 1: about that other person?

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Speaker 6: You could imagine that we were potentially spreading misery that

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Speaker 6: the person who has talked to maybe was I was

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Speaker 6: unhappy about this. We were like polluting the train with

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Speaker 6: all of this unwonted conversation.

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Speaker 1: So does your conversation make other people miserable?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 1: Nick tested that too by creating a fake waiting room

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Speaker 1: in his laboratory.

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Speaker 6: They were also happier when they were talked to than

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Speaker 6: when they were not talked to, and that effect was

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Speaker 6: just as big as the effect on the people who

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Speaker 6: were instructed to talk. So I didn't I don't think

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Speaker 6: we're spreading misery on the trains or the US. Is

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Speaker 6: connecting with someone as pleasant, whether you are the one

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Speaker 6: who's initiating it or the one you're receiving it.

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Speaker 1: Note that Nick's not advocating harassing someone on the train

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Speaker 1: or continuing to try to talk to someone who clearly

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Speaker 1: doesn't want you to speak to them. All nick saying

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Speaker 1: is that a quick conversation can make us feel good.

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Speaker 1: The problem is that's not what we think is going

439
00:23:02,436 --> 00:23:05,876
Speaker 1: to happen. When Nick asked people to imagine how they'd

440
00:23:05,916 --> 00:23:09,596
Speaker 1: feel getting into a conversation with a stranger, they wrongly

441
00:23:09,636 --> 00:23:12,436
Speaker 1: predicted that it wouldn't be fun or uplifting.

442
00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:16,956
Speaker 6: The reason that's interesting is because our expectations guide our behavior.

443
00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:20,036
Speaker 6: So if you expect it's going to be freezing cold outside,

444
00:23:20,076 --> 00:23:21,516
Speaker 6: you'll pick up a jacket. You'll wear it when you

445
00:23:21,596 --> 00:23:23,076
Speaker 6: go outside. If you expect that it's going to be

446
00:23:23,156 --> 00:23:25,516
Speaker 6: really warm outside, you won't wear a jacket. If I

447
00:23:25,556 --> 00:23:27,796
Speaker 6: expect that talking to somebody will be pleasant, I'll do it.

448
00:23:27,796 --> 00:23:29,596
Speaker 6: If I expect it'll be miserable, I won't.

449
00:23:29,996 --> 00:23:32,796
Speaker 1: But I bet you're thinking, what if you're shy around people?

450
00:23:33,396 --> 00:23:36,036
Speaker 1: Maybe all this talking to strangers stuff works if you're

451
00:23:36,076 --> 00:23:38,916
Speaker 1: really outgoing, but maybe it sucks for introverts.

452
00:23:39,396 --> 00:23:42,316
Speaker 6: And we did measure this, and we found actually no

453
00:23:42,356 --> 00:23:45,356
Speaker 6: difference at all between introverts and extroverts, and in across

454
00:23:45,396 --> 00:23:51,436
Speaker 6: these conditions, that is, introverts enjoyed connecting with others as

455
00:23:51,476 --> 00:23:57,636
Speaker 6: extroverts did. Introverts did not enjoy keeping to themselves in solitude,

456
00:23:57,716 --> 00:24:01,556
Speaker 6: and extroverts didn't enjoy that either. What tends to vary

457
00:24:01,996 --> 00:24:05,116
Speaker 6: are people's expectations about how they're going to feel. So

458
00:24:05,156 --> 00:24:07,996
Speaker 6: an introvert, because they think they're not going to enjoy

459
00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:10,876
Speaker 6: a party, is going to choose not to go, whereas

460
00:24:10,876 --> 00:24:13,796
Speaker 6: an extrovert who enjoys a party might choose to go.

461
00:24:14,436 --> 00:24:17,236
Speaker 6: On average, people tend to feel happier when they are

462
00:24:17,236 --> 00:24:21,956
Speaker 6: connecting with others, and that's true for both extroverts and introverts.

463
00:24:22,516 --> 00:24:24,996
Speaker 1: Nix's results are quite challenging for a lot of people

464
00:24:25,036 --> 00:24:28,156
Speaker 1: to hear. No matter what your personality type is, you

465
00:24:28,236 --> 00:24:30,836
Speaker 1: will increase your happiness if you interact with people you

466
00:24:30,916 --> 00:24:33,636
Speaker 1: randomly meet in stores or on public transport.

467
00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:37,036
Speaker 6: Creates a social connection. It keeps you connected on the

468
00:24:37,116 --> 00:24:37,676
Speaker 6: right level.

469
00:24:37,756 --> 00:24:40,316
Speaker 1: I made this very point on the CBS Morning News recently.

470
00:24:40,556 --> 00:24:43,516
Speaker 1: Happy people take time for social connection. They try to

471
00:24:43,556 --> 00:24:45,636
Speaker 1: make connections with the people on the street, and I

472
00:24:45,676 --> 00:24:48,916
Speaker 1: got some interesting reactions from the viewers. Here's one tweet

473
00:24:49,316 --> 00:24:51,396
Speaker 1: from someone who says, quote, talk to a stranger on

474
00:24:51,436 --> 00:24:54,556
Speaker 1: the bus? Are you insane? Don't talk to strangers, It's dangerous.

475
00:24:54,756 --> 00:24:58,036
Speaker 1: Didn't your mama teach you anything. Here's another one one

476
00:24:58,076 --> 00:25:01,756
Speaker 1: of my personal favorites. If a stranger talks to me

477
00:25:01,756 --> 00:25:03,996
Speaker 1: on a bus, I will go nuts. People die because

478
00:25:03,996 --> 00:25:08,716
Speaker 1: of shite like this. Hell no. So do you hit

479
00:25:08,756 --> 00:25:11,436
Speaker 1: similar reactions where people hear these data and are just like,

480
00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:12,356
Speaker 1: not true, not me.

481
00:25:12,916 --> 00:25:15,036
Speaker 6: Oh yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah No. I get it

482
00:25:15,396 --> 00:25:17,876
Speaker 6: all the time. I get a lot of pushback on

483
00:25:17,876 --> 00:25:20,916
Speaker 6: this because the expectations are so strong. So what people

484
00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:25,916
Speaker 6: are imagining, I think, are random people who might come

485
00:25:25,996 --> 00:25:30,836
Speaker 6: up to you and talk to you, and they imagine

486
00:25:30,876 --> 00:25:35,316
Speaker 6: sort of the worst case outcome. So they're imagining homeless

487
00:25:35,356 --> 00:25:38,636
Speaker 6: people are you know, mentally ill people or something who

488
00:25:38,716 --> 00:25:43,596
Speaker 6: are dangerous to them, or psychopaths whatever. But that's a

489
00:25:43,596 --> 00:25:47,596
Speaker 6: different situation from what we're asking people to do here.

490
00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:50,876
Speaker 6: We're just asking you to talk to a person who

491
00:25:50,956 --> 00:25:52,636
Speaker 6: happens to be sitting next to you, and the person

492
00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:55,316
Speaker 6: who happens to be sitting next to you is likely

493
00:25:55,356 --> 00:25:59,436
Speaker 6: to just be a normal person, not a psychopath.

494
00:26:01,276 --> 00:26:03,556
Speaker 1: We don't do something that's almost certain to make us

495
00:26:03,596 --> 00:26:06,116
Speaker 1: happier because we think we'll be preyed upon by some

496
00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:10,596
Speaker 1: imaginary psycho killer. Actually we're going into the break again.

497
00:26:10,956 --> 00:26:14,356
Speaker 1: Alexa play psycho Killer by the talk, I'm having trouble

498
00:26:14,356 --> 00:26:17,436
Speaker 1: connecting to the Internet. That's so annoying. I'm so sorry.

499
00:26:17,556 --> 00:26:31,956
Speaker 1: The show will be back in a moment. Nick Epley

500
00:26:32,036 --> 00:26:34,476
Speaker 1: thinks we're too scared of falling victim to some psycho

501
00:26:34,596 --> 00:26:38,476
Speaker 1: killer to strike up conversations on a train. Such unfounded

502
00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:40,316
Speaker 1: fears are part of why we seem to find the

503
00:26:40,356 --> 00:26:45,076
Speaker 1: automation revolutions so alluring. Don Ze atm was the first step,

504
00:26:45,476 --> 00:26:48,196
Speaker 1: but now we're killing the human part of so many

505
00:26:48,276 --> 00:26:51,796
Speaker 1: of our interactions. I want to introduce you to someone

506
00:26:51,836 --> 00:26:55,756
Speaker 1: who's deeply worried about this new direction, someone who is

507
00:26:55,796 --> 00:26:59,916
Speaker 1: making changes in his own life to fight back. David Byrne.

508
00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:04,516
Speaker 5: We're losing something, and a lot of the efficiency that

509
00:27:04,996 --> 00:27:07,916
Speaker 5: we think is there is kind of an illusion.

510
00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:11,716
Speaker 1: This is in You probably know David as a Talking

511
00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:14,236
Speaker 1: Heads front man, but what you may not know is

512
00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:18,276
Speaker 1: that David also writes brilliant social essays. He recently authored

513
00:27:18,316 --> 00:27:21,836
Speaker 1: a fantastic article for the MIT Technology Review on the

514
00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:26,476
Speaker 1: hidden dangers of automation. It's title Eliminating the Human.

515
00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:32,236
Speaker 5: If these things are becoming so ubiquitous, the elimination of

516
00:27:32,316 --> 00:27:37,636
Speaker 5: the human interaction, What does that mean for us as individuals,

517
00:27:38,116 --> 00:27:40,196
Speaker 5: as a society, as a community.

518
00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:43,636
Speaker 1: David's thesis is that humans have developed over millions of

519
00:27:43,716 --> 00:27:47,796
Speaker 1: years to work, trade, have fun, and form relationships face

520
00:27:47,836 --> 00:27:48,276
Speaker 1: to face.

521
00:27:49,036 --> 00:27:53,596
Speaker 5: You're getting all these different signals. You're getting signals from

522
00:27:53,796 --> 00:27:58,036
Speaker 5: their body language, their facial expression, what their eyes are doing,

523
00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:02,756
Speaker 5: the tone of their voice. We are social animals, That's

524
00:28:03,316 --> 00:28:06,756
Speaker 5: what we are. We're like ants and wolves, and we

525
00:28:06,796 --> 00:28:12,476
Speaker 5: are an animal that flourishes because we are social. And

526
00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:16,076
Speaker 5: you wonder what will happen or what is happening when

527
00:28:17,196 --> 00:28:21,636
Speaker 5: that aspect of our deep makeup starts to be taken

528
00:28:21,676 --> 00:28:23,876
Speaker 5: away from us, or not so much taken away, we

529
00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:25,476
Speaker 5: give it up voluntarily.

530
00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:28,796
Speaker 1: David's worried that we're all voluntarily turning our backs on

531
00:28:28,836 --> 00:28:31,836
Speaker 1: our fellow humans every day thanks to new products which

532
00:28:31,876 --> 00:28:35,436
Speaker 1: promise us ease and convenience, be it an ATM or

533
00:28:35,476 --> 00:28:37,916
Speaker 1: an app to pre order our groceries, or a film

534
00:28:37,956 --> 00:28:40,476
Speaker 1: streaming service that saves us a trip to a crowded

535
00:28:40,476 --> 00:28:40,996
Speaker 1: movie theater.

536
00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:45,556
Speaker 5: I'm not saying that whoever designed these things had in

537
00:28:45,596 --> 00:28:47,996
Speaker 5: the front of their mind. Can I come up with

538
00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:51,356
Speaker 5: a technology to eliminate some of the human interaction in

539
00:28:51,356 --> 00:28:55,316
Speaker 5: my life, but it sure seems to be the result.

540
00:28:55,996 --> 00:28:58,836
Speaker 1: No disrespect to inventors like Don Wetzel, who is as

541
00:28:58,876 --> 00:29:01,876
Speaker 1: social as social can be. But David worries that a

542
00:29:01,916 --> 00:29:05,956
Speaker 1: relatively small section of society, namely the engineers who design

543
00:29:05,956 --> 00:29:08,556
Speaker 1: all this stuff, they're creating a world that the rest

544
00:29:08,556 --> 00:29:11,516
Speaker 1: of us must habit, and they are creating it in

545
00:29:11,636 --> 00:29:12,716
Speaker 1: their own image.

546
00:29:13,196 --> 00:29:15,116
Speaker 6: My father was an engineer.

547
00:29:15,556 --> 00:29:19,716
Speaker 5: I enjoy that mindset of looking at things from an

548
00:29:19,756 --> 00:29:24,036
Speaker 5: engineer's point of view, but I recognize a lot of

549
00:29:24,076 --> 00:29:29,996
Speaker 5: that and a lot of programmers, coders engineers who are

550
00:29:30,036 --> 00:29:33,956
Speaker 5: designing a lot of the things that kind of envelop

551
00:29:34,076 --> 00:29:39,036
Speaker 5: us in the contemporary world. You can sense that a

552
00:29:39,076 --> 00:29:41,516
Speaker 5: lot of these guys, and most of them are guys,

553
00:29:43,236 --> 00:29:48,396
Speaker 5: are not comfortable in social situations. So even if they

554
00:29:48,476 --> 00:29:52,356
Speaker 5: would not vocally say I want to make a world

555
00:29:52,396 --> 00:29:55,036
Speaker 5: where I never have to interact with a person, they

556
00:29:55,116 --> 00:29:58,236
Speaker 5: might unconsciously do that.

557
00:29:58,236 --> 00:29:59,476
Speaker 6: That's the world that has.

558
00:29:59,356 --> 00:30:03,076
Speaker 5: Been made for us, and whether we want to or not,

559
00:30:03,956 --> 00:30:05,236
Speaker 5: we're living in their world.

560
00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:09,796
Speaker 1: Whether or not you completely buy the stereotype that engineers

561
00:30:09,796 --> 00:30:12,876
Speaker 1: shun human company, most of us can admit that what

562
00:30:12,916 --> 00:30:16,676
Speaker 1: they've designed is often pretty tempting. Many of us have

563
00:30:16,756 --> 00:30:20,756
Speaker 1: moments where we relish opportunities to be by ourselves or

564
00:30:20,876 --> 00:30:21,796
Speaker 1: just hide away a bit.

565
00:30:22,636 --> 00:30:25,396
Speaker 5: When I was much younger, I was much shyer, I

566
00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:31,236
Speaker 5: was much, much, much more uncomfortable in social situations. I

567
00:30:31,276 --> 00:30:36,036
Speaker 5: would create a kind of facade or character or persona

568
00:30:36,516 --> 00:30:40,276
Speaker 5: that would be my face for a social interaction, and

569
00:30:40,316 --> 00:30:43,276
Speaker 5: it was a little bit artificial in that sense. I

570
00:30:43,316 --> 00:30:48,076
Speaker 5: can identify and understand that a lot of people feel like,

571
00:30:49,316 --> 00:30:51,956
Speaker 5: oh no. If I can figure out a way to

572
00:30:52,116 --> 00:30:58,196
Speaker 5: navigate the world with as few annoying interactions with the human,

573
00:30:58,916 --> 00:31:05,236
Speaker 5: then very good. Let's design interfaces that speed things along

574
00:31:05,356 --> 00:31:09,636
Speaker 5: and help someone who is uncomfortable in social sitch situations,

575
00:31:09,676 --> 00:31:14,116
Speaker 5: for example, get through them without the pesky human.

576
00:31:15,716 --> 00:31:18,596
Speaker 1: At the end of his MIT Tech Review article, David

577
00:31:18,716 --> 00:31:21,676
Speaker 1: argues that as we spend less and less time talking

578
00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:24,756
Speaker 1: and listening to each other, will become less tolerant of

579
00:31:24,756 --> 00:31:29,836
Speaker 1: each other's differences, will become more inclined to envy and antagonism.

580
00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:34,596
Speaker 1: It's a chilling prospect, but can science save us? Can

581
00:31:34,676 --> 00:31:38,076
Speaker 1: researchers like Nick convince the champions of automation that they're

582
00:31:38,116 --> 00:31:43,116
Speaker 1: getting the balance between convenience and happiness all wrong. I'm

583
00:31:43,116 --> 00:31:48,676
Speaker 1: afraid to say it doesn't look promising. Remember Nick's experiment

584
00:31:48,796 --> 00:31:51,596
Speaker 1: using trained passengers, how he found that the people he

585
00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:55,396
Speaker 1: forced into conversation with their fellow commuters had happier journeys.

586
00:31:56,196 --> 00:31:56,316
Speaker 3: Well.

587
00:31:56,396 --> 00:31:58,716
Speaker 1: Nick reported these findings back to the head of marketing

588
00:31:58,756 --> 00:32:01,676
Speaker 1: at the railroad company, and here was her response.

589
00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:05,236
Speaker 6: Nick, You're not going to believe what we're about to do.

590
00:32:06,316 --> 00:32:08,596
Speaker 6: She said, we're going to roll out a new policy

591
00:32:08,636 --> 00:32:11,236
Speaker 6: on the train. We're going to put in place a

592
00:32:11,316 --> 00:32:15,996
Speaker 6: quiet car. I said, oh really, And the quiet car

593
00:32:16,196 --> 00:32:19,436
Speaker 6: is one she explained, where people are not allowed to

594
00:32:19,556 --> 00:32:21,756
Speaker 6: engage in conversation, they're not allowed to talk on their

595
00:32:21,796 --> 00:32:23,836
Speaker 6: cell phones, they're not allowed to talk to somebody sitting

596
00:32:23,836 --> 00:32:25,636
Speaker 6: next to them. It's supposed to be absolutely quiet.

597
00:32:25,916 --> 00:32:28,436
Speaker 1: Nick was surprised why the train company had made a

598
00:32:28,476 --> 00:32:31,796
Speaker 1: decision that completely contradicted his well being research, and.

599
00:32:31,796 --> 00:32:34,676
Speaker 6: She said, well, because we asked people on a survey

600
00:32:34,716 --> 00:32:38,876
Speaker 6: what they wanted, and this is what they said they wanted, which,

601
00:32:38,916 --> 00:32:41,236
Speaker 6: of course I pointed out, there is exactly what our

602
00:32:41,276 --> 00:32:45,076
Speaker 6: participants said they wanted to and it just turned out

603
00:32:45,196 --> 00:32:47,116
Speaker 6: not quite to be right. At least in terms of

604
00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:47,916
Speaker 6: their well being.

605
00:32:48,596 --> 00:32:51,476
Speaker 1: Nick, being a good scientist, wanted to know if the

606
00:32:51,556 --> 00:32:55,236
Speaker 1: railroad people had carried out an experiment with the opposite

607
00:32:55,236 --> 00:32:56,076
Speaker 1: of a quiet car.

608
00:32:56,436 --> 00:32:59,996
Speaker 6: Have you ever just put a chatty car on the

609
00:33:00,076 --> 00:33:03,116
Speaker 6: line where people can just get together, you know, maybe

610
00:33:03,116 --> 00:33:05,396
Speaker 6: you got snacks or something, and you can get together

611
00:33:05,476 --> 00:33:07,276
Speaker 6: and you just talk. You just you get to know

612
00:33:07,276 --> 00:33:09,036
Speaker 6: your neighbors a little bit, get to know your commuter,

613
00:33:09,356 --> 00:33:12,276
Speaker 6: your chatty car. And she laughed and she said, no,

614
00:33:12,516 --> 00:33:16,156
Speaker 6: we've never done the chatty car. But we used to

615
00:33:16,156 --> 00:33:19,676
Speaker 6: have bar cars on the trains where people would get

616
00:33:19,716 --> 00:33:21,916
Speaker 6: together and often they would then connect with each other there.

617
00:33:21,956 --> 00:33:23,556
Speaker 6: And I asked her to used to have the bar

618
00:33:23,596 --> 00:33:26,236
Speaker 6: cars anymore. She said, no, we don't have them anymore.

619
00:33:26,236 --> 00:33:28,356
Speaker 6: And I asked why not. I was imagining, you know,

620
00:33:28,356 --> 00:33:30,836
Speaker 6: her telling stories about people stumbling off the trains drunk

621
00:33:30,916 --> 00:33:34,076
Speaker 6: or something. But she said the real problem was they

622
00:33:34,116 --> 00:33:39,156
Speaker 6: were too crowded. That is, they were too popular, so

623
00:33:39,356 --> 00:33:41,316
Speaker 6: there were too many people who wanted to be in there.

624
00:33:41,836 --> 00:33:44,156
Speaker 6: That's the point at which as a behavioral scientists you

625
00:33:44,196 --> 00:33:49,396
Speaker 6: just sort of sigh, we think it clearly seems they

626
00:33:49,396 --> 00:33:52,356
Speaker 6: have clear data that people really enjoy being able to

627
00:33:52,356 --> 00:33:57,116
Speaker 6: connect with each other, and yet that service doesn't get extended,

628
00:33:57,156 --> 00:34:00,236
Speaker 6: so they canceled it because the chatty car or the

629
00:34:00,276 --> 00:34:02,996
Speaker 6: equivalent of it was too crowded.

630
00:34:04,316 --> 00:34:07,676
Speaker 1: So if banks and railroad companies and app designers and

631
00:34:07,756 --> 00:34:11,276
Speaker 1: store owners aren't going to come to our rescue, what

632
00:34:11,316 --> 00:34:14,596
Speaker 1: are we to do to stop feeling so isolated? The

633
00:34:14,636 --> 00:34:18,076
Speaker 1: answer is pretty simple. We just need to connect with

634
00:34:18,116 --> 00:34:21,316
Speaker 1: other people, and not just our friends and family members.

635
00:34:22,196 --> 00:34:24,356
Speaker 1: We also need to make the effort to connect more

636
00:34:24,356 --> 00:34:27,596
Speaker 1: with strangers, the random people around us in lines and

637
00:34:27,636 --> 00:34:33,556
Speaker 1: on our commute. They matter more than we think. David

638
00:34:33,596 --> 00:34:37,556
Speaker 1: Byrne realized this. Despite his natural shyness, he's trying to

639
00:34:37,596 --> 00:34:40,876
Speaker 1: be part of the cure. He now embraces opportunities to

640
00:34:40,916 --> 00:34:42,716
Speaker 1: connect with the people who cross his path.

641
00:34:43,076 --> 00:34:45,676
Speaker 5: Yeah, it happened the other day. The subways were messed

642
00:34:45,756 --> 00:34:51,156
Speaker 5: up and there was a Chinese guy who was really

643
00:34:51,196 --> 00:34:53,316
Speaker 5: having a heart. He had some luggage with him and

644
00:34:53,356 --> 00:34:55,836
Speaker 5: he was really having a hard time. Everything, all of

645
00:34:55,956 --> 00:34:58,076
Speaker 5: everything has changed. You know, this train's now on this line,

646
00:34:58,116 --> 00:35:00,356
Speaker 5: This train's now running on this line. This used to

647
00:35:00,356 --> 00:35:02,156
Speaker 5: be an express, now it's a local. And it was

648
00:35:02,196 --> 00:35:05,916
Speaker 5: all this we kind of figured it out together, which

649
00:35:05,996 --> 00:35:11,996
Speaker 5: was kind of sweet. You have made a connection. And

650
00:35:12,916 --> 00:35:17,156
Speaker 5: what I discover is very often they'll smile that you

651
00:35:17,356 --> 00:35:21,956
Speaker 5: are sharing this acknowledgment with them. They might laugh, You'll laugh,

652
00:35:22,156 --> 00:35:25,316
Speaker 5: and so it kind of well, it sounds like a cliche,

653
00:35:25,396 --> 00:35:28,876
Speaker 5: but it brightens your day for another fifteen minutes at least.

654
00:35:31,836 --> 00:35:34,316
Speaker 1: So what have we learned in this episode? For one thing,

655
00:35:34,516 --> 00:35:38,316
Speaker 1: we too readily assume that convenience, efficiency and near instant

656
00:35:38,316 --> 00:35:42,356
Speaker 1: gratification are the roots to happiness, but that assumption is

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00:35:42,396 --> 00:35:46,316
Speaker 1: often wrong. Tiny human interactions are the burst of air

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Speaker 1: we need for our happiness. Tires to steal. Next metaphor,

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00:35:50,396 --> 00:35:52,876
Speaker 1: your mind might tell you a quick conversation is going

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00:35:52,916 --> 00:35:56,156
Speaker 1: to be awkward, too much time, not worth it. But

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00:35:56,196 --> 00:36:00,596
Speaker 1: those intuitions are wrong even for shy folks. So get

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Speaker 1: out there and make a new connection. Next time you

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00:36:03,916 --> 00:36:06,356
Speaker 1: are standing in line, talk to the person next to you.

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00:36:07,036 --> 00:36:09,436
Speaker 1: If you can't think of something to say, you could

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00:36:09,476 --> 00:36:12,156
Speaker 1: tell them that lines are an opportunity, and that the

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00:36:12,196 --> 00:36:15,356
Speaker 1: guy who had the inspiration for the ATM machine did

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00:36:15,436 --> 00:36:18,156
Speaker 1: so while waiting in a bank line, and that his

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00:36:18,236 --> 00:36:21,876
Speaker 1: wife has never used that invention. You could even tell

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Speaker 1: them that you heard that on a podcast, a podcast

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Speaker 1: called The Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santos,