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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mo'm never told you. And that's right,

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Speaker 1: it's Bridget Todd, your co host. It is not. In fact,

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Speaker 1: Tom Waits. I still have laryngitis. My voice is still

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Speaker 1: a little bit different than usual. Thank you for bearing

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Speaker 1: with us. I'm sure it's not easy to listen to.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully we'll get better soon. Yes, I hope. So for

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Speaker 1: your sake, Bridget, I thank you. Sound just fine. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it works for Kathleen Turner. It almost makes me think

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Speaker 1: when celebrities get their body parts insured that the rumor

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Speaker 1: that j Lo's butt is insured, can a podcaster get

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Speaker 1: their throat insured? We should look into it as soon

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Speaker 1: as possible. We should look into well, we'll follow up

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Speaker 1: on that. I'll follow up on that. So as many

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Speaker 1: of you know, if you've been listening to the show

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Speaker 1: for a long time, one of my goals in life

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Speaker 1: is to do more travel. Earlier in the month, I

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Speaker 1: had the opportunity to travel to France with the Afro

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Speaker 1: Punk Podcast. Unfortunately it was not hashtag Operation Vacation because

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Speaker 1: I was there for work, but it still was a

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Speaker 1: really exhilarating, exciting thing to be traveling abroad alone. So

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Speaker 1: today we wanted to explore what does it mean to

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Speaker 1: travel alone for someone that's not a man? Any Have

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Speaker 1: you ever done any travel abroad by yourself? Oh? Yes,

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Speaker 1: oh yes. I love traveling. I love traveling by myself

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Speaker 1: because I feel like it it forces you to get

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Speaker 1: away from yourself. And I think when you travel with friends,

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Speaker 1: and I love traveling with friends too, but I think

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Speaker 1: when you travel with friends, you fall into the role

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Speaker 1: that you play with that friend, even if it is you,

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Speaker 1: like authentically you, there's just a way that you're you're

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Speaker 1: going to behave around them. But if you're by yourself,

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Speaker 1: you can kind of explore different avenues of yourself. At

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Speaker 1: least in mine case, it forces me to be more

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Speaker 1: like go out and meet the locals and see things

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Speaker 1: that maybe I wouldn't have seen, because if I was

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Speaker 1: with my my friends doing this, we would have done

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Speaker 1: one kind of itinerary and I wouldn't have like ventured

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Speaker 1: out too much. But traveling alone, you have to. You

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Speaker 1: have to go out and see what happens. And I

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Speaker 1: find it really liberating and like I've I've experienced a

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Speaker 1: lot of personal growth and learned a lot about myself

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Speaker 1: and the place I was in by traveling alone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had I had a similar experience. It was really

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Speaker 1: cool to wake up and think, anything that I want

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Speaker 1: to do, I can just do it. I don't have

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Speaker 1: to check in with anybody to be like, oh, do

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Speaker 1: you want to do this today? What did you have

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Speaker 1: on the plan today? Um? There was one day that

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Speaker 1: I woke up in France and I really wasn't feeling

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Speaker 1: well and it was okay to just lounge around in

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Speaker 1: the hotel and you know, hang out by the pool,

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Speaker 1: and no one was forcing me to go do sight

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Speaker 1: seeing if I wasn't up to it, which I loved

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Speaker 1: right off the bat. I should mention that I'm incredibly privileged.

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Speaker 1: I'm lucky to be able to travel, and I know

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Speaker 1: that not everybody. That's not an easy thing for everybody. Um,

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Speaker 1: I have a job where I can work remotely. I

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Speaker 1: have enough money in the bank where I, you know,

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Speaker 1: can save up for travel and it's not that big

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Speaker 1: of a deal. Um. I have my citizenship is such

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Speaker 1: that going through our borders, exiting the border and coming

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Speaker 1: back is not a huge thing. My body does not

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Speaker 1: make it so that travel is an uncomfortable or an

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Speaker 1: unwelcome thing, Like I don't feel unwelcome or weird, but

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting in an airplane going through t es A.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a drag for everybody, but it's not

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Speaker 1: a completely dehumanizing experience like it is for many folks

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Speaker 1: out there. So I'm very privileged and lucky, and not

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Speaker 1: everybody has that ability, and I wish that we lived

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Speaker 1: in a world where everyone could experience it, because it

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Speaker 1: really was really gratifying, but we don't. I'm very privileged.

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Speaker 1: I'm very lucky that that can be a part of

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Speaker 1: my life. And traveling alone was great. I had a

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Speaker 1: few safety concerns, but honestly, all through Paris and then

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Speaker 1: I took a train from Paris to Nice, an entire

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Speaker 1: thing was I had almost no problems. There was one

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Speaker 1: time where I was pickpocketed in a park by some teens,

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Speaker 1: but luckily they were teeny tiny. I mean, they were

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Speaker 1: like babies, and I just I really, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: just like strong armed them. I took my phone out

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Speaker 1: of my pocket and I just turned around and it

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Speaker 1: was a group of them and none of them had

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Speaker 1: none of them decided to run, which is I feel like,

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Speaker 1: is if you're going to pickpocket somebody, you should probably

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Speaker 1: have a plan to exit very quickly. Don't just stand

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Speaker 1: around like a jerk. So I basically just grabbed them

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Speaker 1: and grabbed my phone back, and then as I left,

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Speaker 1: I said, you guys are really terrible criminals. If you're

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Speaker 1: going to dedicate your life to a life of crime,

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Speaker 1: you should get better at it. I don't think they

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Speaker 1: understood me, because I don't think they spoke English, but stills,

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Speaker 1: that was my only you know, all things considered, that

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Speaker 1: was like the smallest thing that could have happened, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't feel unsafe. But I was really surprised to

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Speaker 1: learn that women are actually the largest group that does

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Speaker 1: travel alone. Yeah. According to booking dot com survey of

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Speaker 1: American women are taking these solo journeys. American women ranked

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Speaker 1: first and frequent solo travel and are most likely to

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Speaker 1: take three trips or more in a given year, and

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Speaker 1: US women polled have vacationed without a partner. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I'll say the first time I traveled by myself, my

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Speaker 1: dad said to me, have you ever seen the movie Taken? Oh?

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Speaker 1: My god, my dad is also obsessed with Taken. He

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Speaker 1: mentally taken all the time. We had a whole conversation

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Speaker 1: about Taken. He actually referred to it as a documentary,

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Speaker 1: which it is definitely is not. He was like, you

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Speaker 1: should watch this documentary about traveling abroad before you go

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Speaker 1: to France, and he was referring to Taken. Yeah, my

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Speaker 1: dad did something similar and I was like, that is

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Speaker 1: a Leave Niesean like thriller movie. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: take that into account in my decision to travel alone.

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Speaker 1: But so what I'm trying to get at is I

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Speaker 1: think there is this fear that it's not safe for

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Speaker 1: a woman to travel alone. It's kind of in our

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Speaker 1: society sort of understood that it is an unsafe activity

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Speaker 1: for women to do by themselves. But whatever the case,

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Speaker 1: women are traveling alone. And from that study I just mentioned,

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Speaker 1: they asked the female readership about why they travel alone

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Speaker 1: and found that forty six said it was freedom, independence

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Speaker 1: and the chance to do what they want when they want.

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Speaker 1: Said they weren't willing to wait around for others, said

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Speaker 1: to challenge themselves and gain confidence. Yeah. So, when looking

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Speaker 1: at the replies in the Solo Travel Report around women

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Speaker 1: traveling alone, basically the women pulled their reasons for traveling

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Speaker 1: alone really kind of fell into three buckets. One, there

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Speaker 1: are more times in a woman's life when responsibilities can

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Speaker 1: be restrictive, so maybe you're having a baby, maybe you're

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Speaker 1: saving for a wedding. Women have these milestones in their lives,

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Speaker 1: are perceived as having more milestones in their lives where

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Speaker 1: they're not going to be able to take time to travel.

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Speaker 1: So that's one reason why women are like, if I

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Speaker 1: had the window to travel, I'm gonna travel. Two, it's

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Speaker 1: that women are sort of more and adenterous that they

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Speaker 1: want to venture out, they want to see the world,

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Speaker 1: and they're okay doing it alone. And then three, women

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Speaker 1: are comfortable being on their own. I think that there

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Speaker 1: is some truth to that that women can be really

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Speaker 1: really okay with being their own best friend. And so

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Speaker 1: those are the those are the main three buckets of

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Speaker 1: reasoning as to why these women self reported as wanting

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Speaker 1: to travel alone and being really really okay with going

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Speaker 1: on these trips by themselves. Yeah. I can think of

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Speaker 1: so many instances in my life where I've had friends

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Speaker 1: say I want to travel before X milestone like getting

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Speaker 1: married or having kids, like wanting to do all this

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Speaker 1: travel first, which kind of ties into that responsibility thing.

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Speaker 1: And then I feel like, sort of what we talked

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Speaker 1: about in emotional labor, traveling can be there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of planning involved. It doesn't have to be that way,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of the times it is. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like in my personal anecdotal observance, women are better

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Speaker 1: at doing that. Like in my family, I travel a lot,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think anyone else in my family has

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Speaker 1: ever left the country, and they don't want to because

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Speaker 1: it stresses them out thinking about all of the planning

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Speaker 1: they'd have to do and just having to figure out

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Speaker 1: being in a new environment. And to me that that

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Speaker 1: sort of blows my mind. But I think that might

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Speaker 1: play into it, is that women, we we sort of

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Speaker 1: know we're good at all this planning stuff because we've

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Speaker 1: been having to do it for a while, so we're

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Speaker 1: more like, well, how is this different from X wise

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Speaker 1: the appointments that I'm managing in this household or whatever.

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Speaker 1: That's a good point. What's it like to be someone

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Speaker 1: who is very well traveled, Like I know you've lived

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Speaker 1: in China, I know you've lived like you've really traveled extensively.

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Speaker 1: What is it like to be the only person in

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Speaker 1: your family with that kind of background, it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of strange. I sometimes I sort of feel like almost

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Speaker 1: an animal in a zoo. They'll be like, oh, Annie,

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Speaker 1: she's doing this weird thing again in this country. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why she keeps going places. Who knows where

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Speaker 1: she is right now? Probably the first question I get

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Speaker 1: asked when I see someone in my family I haven't

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Speaker 1: seen in a while, is where are you going next?

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Speaker 1: And it's kind of asked in this way as if

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Speaker 1: I don't know, like I'm a very eccentric weirdo. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of the traveling I've done has been with internships,

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Speaker 1: like through college, So a lot of times I was

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Speaker 1: working and I remember my advisor asked me whether or

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Speaker 1: not my um the rest of my family like to travel,

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Speaker 1: because she had seen I'd been to X number of

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Speaker 1: places and she was doing research on genetics predetermining like

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Speaker 1: playing a role in whether or not you liked traveling.

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Speaker 1: So I thought that was really interesting, and I've always

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Speaker 1: kind of wanted to reconnect with her and see what

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Speaker 1: what her research bore out from that, if it, if

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Speaker 1: it did at all. But yeah, I'm definitely sort of

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Speaker 1: the local weirdo in the family, like, oh, George is

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Speaker 1: not good enough for you, enough for Queen Annie. I

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Speaker 1: do get that attitude sometimes, like don't you think that

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Speaker 1: the United States is so beautiful? And I say yes,

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Speaker 1: And I've traveled around the United States and there's so

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Speaker 1: many things to see here, and in fact, in like

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Speaker 1: a recent years, I've been trying to see more of

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Speaker 1: the United States. But just because I think the United

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Speaker 1: States is utiful, I don't think means that I don't

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Speaker 1: want to see anywhere else. Yeah, I'm not extensively well

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Speaker 1: travel outside of the US. I've traveled a lot in

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Speaker 1: the US. I've been really all over and it's been great.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of travel abroad, it's interesting these sort

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Speaker 1: of cultural hang ups we have around it, because I've

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Speaker 1: definitely encountered that attitude that, oh, the United States isn't

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Speaker 1: good enough for you whatever, and you'll have to tell

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Speaker 1: me you've seen it. But this new sort of cultural

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Speaker 1: attitude that if you don't travel, if you don't have

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Speaker 1: a passport, then you're somehow not cool or not with it.

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Speaker 1: That you know, this idea that oh, if you don't

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Speaker 1: have a passport and you're not going to bother or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're just some country bumpkin like I. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know. It's interesting how travel kind

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Speaker 1: of becomes this weird thing that says something about you

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Speaker 1: and it's not just a pastime, is not just a

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Speaker 1: thing that people do, you know, do you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? Yeah, I I absolutely do. I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: so much of the attitude of like, if you don't travel,

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Speaker 1: then you're not cool. But I have seen some people

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Speaker 1: who think that they're a little judgmental if you've never

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Speaker 1: left the country, if you've never seen anything outside of it.

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Speaker 1: It kind of like a Holy Tory attitude. I've seen

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Speaker 1: some of that, And Yeah, it's just sort of an

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Speaker 1: odd thing to put all of this, all of these

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Speaker 1: hang ups on, because it's not for everyone. Absolutely, it's

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Speaker 1: not for everyone. I don't know why. I guess we

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Speaker 1: do that with a lot of things as well, but

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Speaker 1: it just seems odd to me that it's become something

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Speaker 1: that we make these snap judgments on. Yeah. I remember

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Speaker 1: there was some celebrity who was in the press a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago for having an outreach program for

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Speaker 1: underprivileged kids in America that was going to help them

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Speaker 1: get passports. And on the one hand, I was like, great,

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Speaker 1: and that's it's good for kids to have passports. But

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Speaker 1: then part of me thought, you know, if I was

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Speaker 1: an underprivileged kid with were there other other things that

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Speaker 1: would make a more immediate impact in my life? Like

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Speaker 1: travel is great and if you could do it, I

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Speaker 1: think that you should do it. But it's not for everybody.

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Speaker 1: There are other ways to enrich yourself. There are other ways.

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Speaker 1: There's variance culture and travel. Let's be real, like, not

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Speaker 1: everybody unerford to travel. There's this meme that, oh, for

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Speaker 1: the price of that iPhone, those shoes, you could have

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Speaker 1: gone to wherever. And I think those are so stigmatizing

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Speaker 1: because travel just does not fit into everyone's lifestyle. Even

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Speaker 1: though I think it's great, it isn't the only way

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Speaker 1: to be culturally enriched. Oh yeah, I agree. And going

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Speaker 1: back to two women traveling by themselves, and the statistics

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Speaker 1: are limited, but an estimated thirty two million single American

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Speaker 1: women traveled at least once in the last year, and

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Speaker 1: about three and ten did so five times or more,

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Speaker 1: according to the Travel Industry Association. Older women are a

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Speaker 1: growing group of solo travelers as well. According to umtent

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Speaker 1: of agents polled, most of their clients taking solo trips

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Speaker 1: are fifty five years of age are older, followed by

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Speaker 1: those forty five to fifty five that's about and then

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Speaker 1: thirty five to forty five teen percent and eighteen to

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Speaker 1: twenty four years of age point four percent. See I

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Speaker 1: love this. When I was researching for this episode, I

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Speaker 1: found so many great communities of women who do travel,

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Speaker 1: and so many of them were older women saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: I always wanted to see how Paris before I died.

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Speaker 1: I always wanted to see this or that before I died,

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Speaker 1: And I often said things like, oh there was always

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Speaker 1: something you know, was my kid, Mike. I had to

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Speaker 1: do this for my family. I feel like women are

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Speaker 1: so likely to sacrifice for other sacrifice what they want

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Speaker 1: to do to help others, whether it's their family, their partner.

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Speaker 1: And I was so pleased that these women had this

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Speaker 1: sort of better late than her spirit, you know, And

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Speaker 1: I was really inspired by that. My like experience with

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Speaker 1: travel was very similar, even though I don't consider myself

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Speaker 1: an older woman, but I'm sure somebody out there does.

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Speaker 1: My best friend, I sometimes call him my platonic life partner.

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Speaker 1: Like we're basically we're each other's people, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. And he was living in Paris working on

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Speaker 1: the French election, and he was like, Bridget, you should

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Speaker 1: definitely come out. Spent a spent a month in Paris.

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Speaker 1: At the time. I was sort of in between jobs,

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Speaker 1: but I actually had the money I could have gone,

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Speaker 1: and I had a place to say, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I was in I was in a place where I

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Speaker 1: was giving so much of myself to others, and this

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Speaker 1: was like going to Paris and something I really really

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Speaker 1: truly wanted to do, and it just did not seem

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Speaker 1: like something I could do. And you know, I thought

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Speaker 1: about my life here in d C and the various

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Speaker 1: responsibilities and I felt like I had to take on

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Speaker 1: specifically for other people, and I didn't go. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you ever watched that show The Hills,

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Speaker 1: but one of the plotlines of the Butt of the

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Speaker 1: Hills was that this character is supposed to go to

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Speaker 1: Paris to to work for French Vogue, and she doesn't go.

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Speaker 1: And the like running joke of the show is You'll

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Speaker 1: always be the girl who didn't go to Paris. And

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Speaker 1: I was very much like I am a girl who

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Speaker 1: didn't go to Paris. I'd never be the girl who

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Speaker 1: doesn't go to Paris. And you know, I didn't kind

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Speaker 1: of have that better late than never feeling when I

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Speaker 1: was there of the person who put off what they

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Speaker 1: wanted to do because of other people things. I felt

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Speaker 1: like I had to do for them, and I put

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Speaker 1: myself not even just second, like third, fourth or six.

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Speaker 1: When I was in France, I was like, I am

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Speaker 1: solidly a different person, and I hate to be the

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Speaker 1: kind of person who goes to France once and comes back,

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Speaker 1: you know, all all spiritual and poetic, and that's as

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Speaker 1: you'll probably know that it's very much not my STI

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Speaker 1: is not my vibe at all. But I did have

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Speaker 1: a moment of when I was alone under the Eiffel Tower.

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Speaker 1: I spent an hour at night with my headphones under

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Speaker 1: the Eiffel Tower. So I had this overwhelming moment of

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Speaker 1: I can't believe I am in Paris. I can't even

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Speaker 1: believe I made it here. In a million years, I

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Speaker 1: never would have thought that some you know, some little

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Speaker 1: black girl from the same town in the south would

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Speaker 1: be sitting under the Eiffel Tower watching it glow like

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Speaker 1: I really did have a moment of Oh my God,

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Speaker 1: like this is a perfect life moment and I'm so

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Speaker 1: lucky to have it. So maybe I am the kind

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Speaker 1: of person who goes to France once and like comes

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Speaker 1: back and they're Joan Diddy and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: maybe that is me. But what I'm saying is that

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Speaker 1: it's important and the idea that older women are not

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Speaker 1: even finding that space in themselves, carving out that space

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Speaker 1: and saying I want to see X y Z. I've

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Speaker 1: spent my entire life giving to others, I'm taking this

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Speaker 1: for myself. I think that is so empowering. I do too,

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Speaker 1: And my mom has sort of timidly asked me, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about traveling and perhaps I'd like to go,

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Speaker 1: And she's sort of listing off these places, and I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to encourage her to to travel because I think

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Speaker 1: I think she would like it. I'm just kind of

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Speaker 1: really thrilled that she is considering this idea that I

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Speaker 1: don't think she ever thought it was going to be

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Speaker 1: a possibility for her. I have a very similar thing

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Speaker 1: with my mom. My mom will often say things to

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Speaker 1: me like, oh, I wish I could see Paris, I

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Speaker 1: wish I could see Italy. I would love to do

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Speaker 1: this before I die. It's it's a shame I won't

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Speaker 1: be able to see it. And I always say, Mom,

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Speaker 1: you could do it, like do it, do it. And

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Speaker 1: when I was in Paris, I called my mom and

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Speaker 1: we had this We have kind of a weird relationship.

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Speaker 1: Not to get too into it, but one of the

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Speaker 1: things that she sat on the phone to me that

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Speaker 1: I was sort of struck by was I never got

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Speaker 1: to do those things. I never got to see Paris,

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Speaker 1: I never got to chat around the world. And on

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Speaker 1: the one hand, I don't think that she meant it

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Speaker 1: in a sad way, but I felt sort of sad,

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Speaker 1: But also I think it was sort of hopeful that,

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Speaker 1: like my mom has spent her life trying to give

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Speaker 1: her kids more than she had, and so on the

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Speaker 1: one hand it was sad, but on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: I don't think she was sad at all that she

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Speaker 1: was able to make sure her kids got to see

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Speaker 1: Europe and that was something that she wanted to do

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Speaker 1: but never could do. So it was a little bit

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Speaker 1: bitter sweet. But we should moms should travel, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you want to travel, look at the pictures and

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Speaker 1: the stories of older women who have always wanted to

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Speaker 1: travel and then do it when they're older. It is

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Speaker 1: so inspiring. Yes, it is. It makes my heart happy

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Speaker 1: that that's happening, and maybe that's a possibility for mom, mom,

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Speaker 1: and for me when I get older. But to go

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Speaker 1: back to that question of our dad's bringing up taken

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Speaker 1: as a documentary, are women safe traveling abroad? We do

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Speaker 1: have some numbers around that, But first we're going to

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Speaker 1: stop for a quick break for a word from our sponsor,

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Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So, yeah, women traveling alone.

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Speaker 1: I certainly remember getting so much either advice like please

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Speaker 1: to not do it. It got to the point that

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't tell my parents I was leaving the country

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Speaker 1: until I was in the airport about to board, because

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Speaker 1: they would try so hard to convince me, please don't go,

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Speaker 1: please don't do it. Oh my god. Yeah, again, that's

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Speaker 1: like what you were saying, how your family sort of

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Speaker 1: sees you this oddity. You probably think, what's she doing?

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Speaker 1: Where is she going? Yeah, I have a really funny story.

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Speaker 1: I was going out, like the first time I traveled

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Speaker 1: by myself. I was going to try to document because

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Speaker 1: at the time, I was like majoring part of my

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Speaker 1: majors in languages, and I was going out to document

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Speaker 1: this dying language in Australia. And it was in the

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Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, Like you have to it's flooded. You

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Speaker 1: can't get there by car, you have to take like

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Speaker 1: a one person jet type thing out there. I get there,

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Speaker 1: like this guy I've never met comes up to me

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Speaker 1: and he says, are you Annie And I said yes,

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Speaker 1: And he said you should really call your parents more

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Speaker 1: because they somehow gotten ahold of the like one phone

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Speaker 1: that worked in that town called him and left a message.

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Speaker 1: And I was so just thrown by it. What is happening?

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Speaker 1: First of all, kudos to your parents or there's like

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's it's so impressive. I was shocked. And

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Speaker 1: it was so difficult. There was no internet there, the

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Speaker 1: phone barely worked, and just to dial out, I remember

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Speaker 1: having to dial like twenty numbers and then the phone number.

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Speaker 1: It was really complicated. So I'm impressed that they showed

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Speaker 1: to find the number to call to leave the message.

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Speaker 1: The guy who said that to me, he said, they

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Speaker 1: like called I think he was like the fifth person

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Speaker 1: in the line of people they had called to get

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Speaker 1: to that point, so wow. And was he some sort

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Speaker 1: of official or was he just some guy that happened

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Speaker 1: to get his number? He was. He worked at the airport.

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Speaker 1: I hesitate to stay airport because it was kind of

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Speaker 1: just a one room building, but he worked there. He

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Speaker 1: like flew He was one of the people that flew

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Speaker 1: in and out. This is like the Simpsons episode about

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Speaker 1: Australia where the kid has to get on his bike

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Speaker 1: and ride like seven miles to get to his neighbor's house. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is kind of like that. But you found a

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Speaker 1: really good article about this from the New York Times, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I cannot recommend this article enough. It was in the

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Speaker 1: New York Times. It's called Women Alert to Travel's Darker

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Speaker 1: Side by Lauren Wolfe, who was a columnist who was

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Speaker 1: vary well traveled. And basically it's about whether or not

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Speaker 1: women are safe abroad and even sort of a conversation

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Speaker 1: that we have around travel safety and sort of help

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Speaker 1: problematic and skewed that conversation is in general. Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: quote from the article, experts I suppose to say they

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Speaker 1: cannot know whether attacks on female tourists are actually increasing.

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Speaker 1: Hard numbers are difficult to come by. None of these groups,

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Speaker 1: You and Women, an agency focused on gender equality, the

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Speaker 1: United States State Department and non governmental organizations are n

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Speaker 1: g o s keep data on violence against female tourists.

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Speaker 1: The British Foreign Office, however, does release statistics on how

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Speaker 1: many Britain's requested consular assistance after a sexual attack. In

430
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: people requested assistance, with one thirty eight saying they had

431
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: been raped and one seventy two sexually assaulted, an increase

432
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 1: of nine and twelve for the year, respectively, according to

433
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: the figures from the offices British Behavior Abroad Report. But

434
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: those figures are hardly the end of the story. A

435
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: number of experts tell me that it is possible that

436
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 1: violence is on the rise in part because more women

437
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 1: than ever are traveling alone and are venturing ever farther

438
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: off the beaten path. The point this article makes that

439
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: I think is so salient, is that the conversation that

440
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: we're having around women and travel and being abroad and

441
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 1: safety is sort of not the right conversation. The real

442
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,719
Speaker 1: question that seems to illustrate whether or not a country

443
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: is safe for a woman alone is how safe local

444
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: women are in those countries, like our local women being raped.

445
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: Is there a culture that says that sexually assaulting someone

446
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: is okay? Is there a macho culture where women are

447
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: sort of supposed to be the property of men. Those

448
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: are the things that are more likely to indicate whether

449
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 1: or not a woman traveling in a specific country is

450
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 1: going to be safe or not. But that is often

451
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: the conversation that goes over a look, because we are

452
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: so focused on high profile incidents of violence against quote,

453
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: non local women, which I think it is supposed to

454
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: be sort of a euthumism for white or at least

455
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: western right. So if you are a white traveler going

456
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: abroad and you are the victim of violence, that is

457
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: going to be a high profile thing. And so the

458
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: conversation that becomes about while as it's safe for Americans

459
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: or British people to go to India or to Mexico

460
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: or whatever. And the real conversation, and in fact, this

461
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 1: article argues indicator is how are local women being treated?

462
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 1: So if you go someplace where local women are treated badly,

463
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: you are probably more likely to experience violence and it

464
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: is more likely to be unsafe. But because we don't

465
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: have those conversations and when a local woman is the

466
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: victim of violence, it's under reported and less likely to

467
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: be covered. But then the media and solved when compared

468
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: to a white or Western traveler, that we just don't

469
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: have that conversation, and so that the whole question that

470
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: we're asking around whether or not it's safe for women

471
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: women to travel is the wrong question. Yeah, And going

472
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: back to the Times piece, here's another quote that illustrates

473
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: that every expertise spoke to, whether in India, Mexico, Brazil

474
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: or elsewhere, said that cases of violence against international female

475
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: tourists are not only more likely to make the news,

476
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: they are also more likely to see justice than cases

477
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: involving local women. Yeah, and so I just think that

478
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 1: is something to keep in mind, Like the very conversation

479
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: around safety and travel is sort of skewed, and that

480
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: if you are a white or Western traveler going to

481
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,719
Speaker 1: a non white or non Western country and something happens

482
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: to you, I almost feel like we don't have the

483
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: language to adequately have the conversation around global safety. The

484
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: article makes that point so well, right, that Mexican women

485
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: in Mexico who are the victims of violence, it's massively

486
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: under reported massively under investigated. But if a Western or

487
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: white traveler goes missing, that is all we would hear about.

488
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 1: That narrative that that fuels is that, oh, it's not

489
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: safe for western woman alone in Mexico, when in fact

490
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: that might not even be true statistically. The truth is

491
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: something more along the lines of this is a dangerous

492
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: place for women, all women at large. Does that make sense, Yeah,

493
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: it absolutely makes sense. When I was in college, I

494
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: worked for two organizations that we're supposed to set people

495
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 1: up with internships and um countries all over, and I

496
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: was always kind of surprised at just this attitude. I

497
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: would encounter a lot, usually from parents and not so

498
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: much the kids or young adults looking at traveling of

499
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: like they can't go to that country, it's not safe.

500
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: And I would be like, well, what makes you say that?

501
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: And it would just be like this one case that

502
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: they heard about on the news and they didn't have

503
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: like a lot of facts around it. It just remembered

504
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: like I remember that one white lady went missing. And

505
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: I'd be like, well, I can't really help you there.

506
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: You don't you're not giving me any details. I'm just

507
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: telling you what I know. And I don't think that

508
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: you should base your whole decision off of one story

509
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: you can barely remember. Yeah, I mean that happens, right,

510
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: And part of it is understandable, where when one person

511
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: goes missing in a country, it's such a media frenzy,

512
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: and the media plays into what they love. I mean,

513
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: I used to work I'm talking about myself, Like, I

514
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: used to work at a news organization, and we loved

515
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: it when pretty white girls went missing because it meant

516
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: their picture on TV, it meant her name was a hashtag,

517
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: it meant her parents on TV, her soccer picture from

518
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: like high school on TV, and those things drove ratings.

519
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: And so you know, part of me can't blame those

520
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: parents because if that's all you see, it gives the

521
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: perception that, oh, it's happening a lot, and one that

522
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 1: might not be true, and to the conversation, could be

523
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: it's happening a lot because this place is unsafe for

524
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: all women, and it's not just unsafe for your daughter

525
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: who's traveling there, and so it's it's sort of confuel

526
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 1: a myopic view of the actual situation. Yeah, and there

527
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: have been a handful of these kind of high profile

528
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: deaths of female travelers, and sadly, those incidents were full

529
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: of victim blaming. When two young Argentinian women, Maria Coney

530
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: and Marina Menagazzo, were killed while backpacking in Ecuador, many

531
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: commenters asked why they were traveling alone without a man,

532
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: even though they weren't alone, they were traveling together. But

533
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: people were like, well, what were they? They had no

534
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 1: business being out there without a man. Just so frustrating.

535
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: It is frustrating. It just would have assumed that if

536
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: there's no man in the mix, you're basically alone. You're alone.

537
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: You could be with a group of ten people, but

538
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: if there's no man, you're alone. Yeah, you need a

539
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: man to validate the group. Otherwise, what are you even

540
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: doing out there? Exactly? In response to this kind of

541
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: victim blaming criticism, the phrase biaho sola I travel alone

542
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: trended on Twitter, with more than five thousand women using

543
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: the hashtag to discuss their experiences. One woman poignantly wrote,

544
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: traveling is freedom. Freedom has no gender. Another wrote, I

545
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: want to travel alone without the fear I'll be punished

546
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: for it. Yeah, that's that's point it, that's pointed. There

547
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: was another high profile act of violence three year old

548
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: New Yorker Sorry Sierra, was killed in Turkey during her

549
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: very first trip abroad. The man who was convicting of

550
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: murdering her stead of The attack began after she rebuffed

551
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: his attempt to kiss her um. Now this sounds really

552
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: really scary, but it is really scary. But if you

553
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: pay attention to the news, or you know, are a

554
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: human woman in the world, you know that that experience

555
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: a man feeling slighted after you won't kiss him, won't

556
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: flirt with him, won't give you his number, that happens

557
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: in the United States. Also, it's not confined to Turkey,

558
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: and so the very same thing could have quite possibly

559
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: happened to this woman in New York. The common criticism

560
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: that you were just talking about Annie is like, O,

561
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: are they doing there alone? That kind of thing? The

562
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: same thing could happen, and she was five blocks more

563
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: apartment in New York, and so that criticism really just

564
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, Like that idea of what were you

565
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: doing alone in Turkey? You know, you're kind of asking

566
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: for your bringing on herself. How could have happened on

567
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: her street? And in fact, has happened to women in

568
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: their own hometowns. Yeah, for sure. And something else that

569
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: we found telling is that the State Department's official guideline

570
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: for women traveling abroad points out that the fact that

571
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: women are conditioned to be polite can put us at risk.

572
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: The site says, don't feel the need to be overly

573
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: polite if you are bothered by someone. While it may

574
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: seem rude to be unfriendly to a stranger, creating boundaries

575
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: to protect yourself is important. Use facial expressions, body language,

576
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: and a firm voice to fend off any unwanted attention. Yeah,

577
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: I wish it were that simple. Yeah. I also wish

578
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: it were that simple. I mean, clearly, her rebuffing her

579
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: murderous advances did not work. And I think it interesting

580
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: that the State Department acknowledges that women we've been conditioned

581
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: and trained to be polite, to smile. If someone offers

582
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: you help with your bag, you take it. Someone offers

583
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: you even drink, you smile, you take it. They acknowledge

584
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 1: that we live in that sort of world and that

585
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: people use that they use these norms to victimize people.

586
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: But again, I wish it were that simple. I wish

587
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: that you could just say, don't kiss me, get away

588
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: from me and and have that be something that you

589
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: could always affirm. I think nine times out of ten

590
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: that kind of response can be useful. So I want

591
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: to give like women out there permission to be rude,

592
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: especially if you're on vacation alone. It's okay to trust

593
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: your instinct and it's okay to you know, be if

594
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: you have to, because then keep you safe. But let's

595
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: not pretend that that's always a safe option as well.

596
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, absolutely, I've mentioned it before on the show,

597
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: but I have a whole feel I can go to

598
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: about the escalation later episode, a piece in The Guardian

599
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: pointed out the double standard and how Sierra's death was portrayed.

600
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: Then when men are killed while traveling, one headline read

601
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: Americans death in Turkey puts focus on solo travel. Compare

602
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: that with the headline about the death of Harry Dervert,

603
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: thirty two year old U s citizen killed while traveling

604
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: alone in Mexico. Quote the untimely death of world traveler

605
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: Harry Dervert. When Australian Lee Hudswell died after an accident

606
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: while tubing down a river in Laos, the press reported

607
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: fatal and to Lee's overseas adventure. So neither of those

608
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: are bringing up that they were solo traveler. They're talking

609
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: about like cool things that both of them were doing,

610
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: compared to how Sierra died in Turkey exactly. Something else

611
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention is that rape and sexual assaults

612
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: in India have actually had an impact on tourism from

613
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: women and others in the country. According to The Guardian,

614
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: the number of foreign tourists arriving in India dropped by

615
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: during the last three months of the year, largely because

616
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: of fears about the risk of sexual assault. According to

617
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: the Industry Survey, the number of female tourists fell by

618
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: compared with the same period last year, with Indian tour

619
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: operators reporting many cancelations from January to March following the

620
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: fatal gang rate of a psychotherapist on a Deli bus

621
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: last December. So, yeah, and in countries where it isn't

622
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: safe for women, I mean, it's having an impact on

623
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: their on their tourism dollars. And so this is obviously

624
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: something that is a real concern, But the conversation that

625
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: we're having around it, it seems to be focused around

626
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: victim blaming and punishing women for their choice to travel

627
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: on their own and not actually tackling the problem. Yeah,

628
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: I have definitely sort of gotten um a reaction almost

629
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: like when I'll tell people I went to India and

630
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: some people would bring this up, and it was the

631
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: strangest thing. Some people would be like, almost nothing happened

632
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: to me while I was there, but almost like before

633
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: I'd gone, like that's on your head, whatever happens, you're

634
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: being stupid and you're not realizing like how dangerous it

635
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 1: is for you to just go out and just like

636
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: pre victim blaming me was like nothing had happened. But

637
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: some usually dudes would just give me this attitude like,

638
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: well that's on you, like okay, that's like pre crime,

639
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: but it's pre victim blame. And it was almost like

640
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: like a righteous anger. They knew so much more than me.

641
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: I hope you like getting murdered because that's what's gonna

642
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: happen and it's gonna be your fault. Yeah, I kind of,

643
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: and it was a little shocking. You should always research

644
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: if you're traveling alone, research a country that you're going

645
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: to take that time, put in that effort, know what

646
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: you should be doing to be irresponsible and safe. Tourist.

647
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: But I don't think you should like point the finger

648
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 1: at someone traveling alone. Well that was just and let's

649
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: be real, the person who was some am, it's the murderer,

650
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 1: it's the rapist. It's not the woman who did nothing

651
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: but go to India. It's the rapist. It's a strange experience,

652
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: for sure. And and a lot of people like to

653
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: point out like, almost morbidly, did you hear about this?

654
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: Did you hear about this? Did you hear about this?

655
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: As if they can shock you out of going, Yeah,

656
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: shock you out of sticking with a choice that you've made. Yeah, yeah,

657
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: And it's strange. And again, I totally you should know

658
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 1: what you're getting into. I think I think that's just wise.

659
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: Neither of us is saying go head first, you'll be fine.

660
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: We're saying, like, take precautions, all of that, but don't

661
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: let this fear of what could happen stop you from

662
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: doing what you want to do. The end of the

663
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: New York Times piece that we've been referencing actually sums

664
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: us up quite nicely. I think she writes summing up

665
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: what seems to be the underlying sentiment of many female travelers.

666
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: I spoke to Jocelyn Oppenheim, an architectural designer in New

667
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: York who has tracked extensively the India, said, bad things

668
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: can happen. Bad things can happen when you get into

669
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: a tax in New York City. So this idea that

670
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: you are asking for trouble if you go abroad, anything

671
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: can happen anywhere. Right, something bad had happened to you

672
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: a block from your house. If you decided that you

673
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: want to go abroad alone and you're you know, a

674
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: woman traveler, you've not made a choice to put yourself

675
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 1: in danger. This is not true. Yeah, there is also

676
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: a risk if your lgbt Q that we should talk about.

677
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: And there are still many places in the world, including

678
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: many countries in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, the Caribbean,

679
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: and at the Pacific, as well as Russia, where laws

680
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: or social customs create an unwelcoming and unsafe environment for

681
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: travelers who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. More than

682
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: seventy five countries consider consensual same sex sexual relations at crime,

683
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,439
Speaker 1: and in about ten countries, a person could be put

684
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: to death for being gay, according to the United States

685
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: State Department. Yeah, so if you're traveling to one of

686
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: these places and your lgbt Q, i've good idea, and

687
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: it's it's unfortunate that this is the reality, But it

688
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: would be a safe thing to do to research what

689
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: the laws and sort of local attitude is around that,

690
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: because you don't want to find yourself in a situation

691
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: where you could potentially encounter something unsafe because of like

692
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: local attitudes and local customs that you know you didn't know. Yeah.

693
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 1: According to a first of its kind survey about the

694
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: travel needs of trans travelers, for trans folks, travel safety

695
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: is their number one concern. Seven hundred transgender people across

696
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: forty eight states were queried on their traveling habits. Approximately

697
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: said destination's perceived safety influences whether they visit or not.

698
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: And that makes a lot of sense when you consider

699
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: that trans folks are at higher risk for violence just

700
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: in general, whether you're traveling or not. But what's really

701
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: stuff is that you don't even really have hard data

702
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: around that because it's not actually tracked. The number of

703
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: harmful episodes, arrests, prosecutions, and deaths involving gay, bisexual, or

704
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 1: transgender travelers globally is not travel. This is according to

705
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: Renato Sabadini, the executive director of the International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual,

706
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: and Trans and Intersex Association, a nonprofit rights group in Geneva.

707
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 1: He says that even though the overall trend is positive,

708
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,919
Speaker 1: some countries have moved forward while others have moved back.

709
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: India do criminalize same sex sexual activities between men and

710
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: two thousand nine, but reverse TET decision in and of course,

711
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 1: even getting to your destination can feel unsafe if your

712
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 1: trans or gender nonconforming because of gender requirements on passports

713
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 1: and mishandled T s A screenings. The entire conversation around

714
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: what it takes to feel safe while traveling, it's a

715
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: completely nuanced conversation, and it has all these different intersections

716
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: whether you are trans or gender nonconforming, or queer or

717
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: present in certain ways, and you know which is We're not.

718
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 1: I don't feel like we're having a conversation that takes

719
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: into account all these various intersections and what they mean

720
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: for your safety when you travel abroad. But we do

721
00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: have some tips for you after this quick break and

722
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So something that we were

723
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: just talking about off Mike is even beyond the conversation

724
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: of whether or not traveling alone is safe. It's really

725
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: this idea that as women, if we travel alone, something

726
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: is wrong with you, like it's a sad thing. I

727
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: mentioned that when I was in France, I didn't really

728
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: have any major safety concerns, But one thing I did

729
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: get a lot of was people openly and outright pitying

730
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 1: me for being in France alone. Yes, yes, I get

731
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: that so much too. Um. I have like close friends

732
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 1: of mine. When I was saying I like traveling alone,

733
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: she responded back with but then you have no one

734
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: to share it with. And then I had another friend

735
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: asked me, well, who takes your pictures? As if it's

736
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: the sad at this thing in the world that I

737
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 1: could want to do this by myself. Well, I can

738
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: give folks a little uh sneak peek on our on

739
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: our solo travel tips. And I learned when I was

740
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: in France, which is that if you are out traveling

741
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: alone and you need someone to take a picture of you,

742
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: ask a teenage girl. Teenage girls are really good at

743
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: taking pictures of other people. They don't mind standing there

744
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: for a while. They'll do different lighting Like somebody was like, oh,

745
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: your tag is out The best pictures that I got

746
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: on myself when I was alone in France were all

747
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 1: taken my teenage girls. See, there you go. We don't

748
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: need to travel with someone just for the pictures. I

749
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: can't believe that was there. They're worried, like, who's going

750
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: to take your picture? Also? Ever heard of a selfie stick?

751
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 1: There are options, there are other other avenues available. Yeah,

752
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: when I was traveling alone, the kind of questions that

753
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: I got I got. I got someone asked, did you

754
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: just go through a divorce or a breakup? You know?

755
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: The question is like what are you running from? Or

756
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: who are you running from? It couldn't just be that

757
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 1: I'm traveling alone for fun. It's assumed that I'm eat, pray,

758
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: loving my way through some disaster. I'm having some sort

759
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: of breakdown, And you know what, maybe I was having

760
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 1: a breakdown. That is my business. But women can travel

761
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: and not be going through some sort of you know,

762
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: personal crises. And just because I'm just because I'm in

763
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: France alone, as I mean, I'm running away from some guy.

764
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: Even if I actually am right, I feel like I

765
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: got a lot of a pity where they were like, oh,

766
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 1: poor dear, she doesn't realize how sad and alone she is?

767
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like I'm faking

768
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: it to myself. I'm lying to myself and I just

769
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: don't realize as if they could see a part of

770
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 1: me that I couldn't, and that I didn't realize how

771
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: sad and pathetic I was. There's nothing worse than the

772
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: implication that you are lying to yourself about something because

773
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: it's the reality is too sad. It's I've got that feeling.

774
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: I got that vibe from so many people though, And

775
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: then to be I, I like hiking a lot, and

776
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: you know, you reached the summit, and I like to

777
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: just sit and enjoy the view, maybe self reflect and

778
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: I would get these like sad pitying glances, and I

779
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: would hear people kind of you knows like she alone? Is?

780
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: She by herself? Why does that? Why does that worth

781
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: you whispering to whoever you're with about I don't understand. Yeah, shouldn't.

782
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: Shouldn't they be quietly reflecting instead of worrying about what

783
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: you're doing? Right, I'm not bothering you. Let me enjoy

784
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 1: the view. And I gotta tell you, like I said,

785
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: sitting under the Eiffel tower at midnight, watching it glitter

786
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: completely by myself. I was so happy. I was literally sobbing.

787
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: I was listening to my Bloody Valentine and Kate Bush

788
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: on headphones, and I was so happy. I was literally crying.

789
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 1: They probably be thinking, oh, she's crying because she's alone.

790
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: Oh that's beautiful Bridget, though, No, it was. It was.

791
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: It was. I mean, I again, I hate to be

792
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: the kind of person who leaves the I mean I

793
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: I really, I'm not gonna lie. I think of myself

794
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: as like a cool sort of person. But I the

795
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,919
Speaker 1: second that I was in France, I was like Nina

796
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: Simone on the streets of Paris, right. I was reflecting

797
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: and writing in journals, and I used to sort of

798
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: jokingly lovingly tease my friends who would go on trips

799
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: and come back and act like they were, you know,

800
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 1: a spiritual guery or something. Afterward, I feel like it

801
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: did change me. Like I know that's uncool to admit,

802
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 1: I feel like it did. Really I felt a shift.

803
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: Hate this. I hate even I'm like cringing thinking about it,

804
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 1: but you know, I thought about thirteen year old Bridget

805
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: who it was a lot of times. It was really

806
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: sad and really miserable and never felt like I fit in.

807
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: I thought I was going to have a really sad,

808
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: depressing life where I never left my really small hometown,

809
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: and for such a long time, I thought I'll never

810
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: see anything beyond the corners of Midlothian, Virginia. And if

811
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: you live in Midlothian, it was different when I lived there.

812
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:53,919
Speaker 1: Now it's a little bit better, but it was different then.

813
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 1: And I had a real moment alone under the Eiffel

814
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: Tower where I was just like that little girl inside

815
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: of me. I was like, we made it, We're here,

816
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: we made it. I hate myself her feeling this way

817
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 1: because it's just so cheesy, but it's true. It is true,

818
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: and I feel like it's it's such a great reminder

819
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: of how much more is out there. You can forget,

820
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: you can get lost in your own world and forget

821
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: there's so much more to see. And every time I travel,

822
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 1: I have this moment, usually like at night, where I

823
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: look up and you remember being a kid and looking

824
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: up at the sky and just feeling kind of like

825
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: so small and so connected at the same time, which, yes,

826
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: sounds really terrible, but I have moments like that and

827
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: it's such it's a great reminder that there's there's a

828
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: whole world out there that's so real. This is the

829
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: last cheesy thing I'll say, is that. So when I

830
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: was a niece, I love the beach, I love swimming,

831
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: I love the water. Um. I spent an entire day

832
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: just like swimming at the beach and listening to music

833
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: on the beach and beeching it up. And my favorite

834
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 1: moment was these three little girls. They were the cutest

835
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: thing that ever seen. They did not speak a lick

836
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: of English. They were probably like four or five. I

837
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 1: kept asking, where's your mom, where's your mom? And they

838
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,959
Speaker 1: just kept smiling at me. They forced me to play

839
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: with them in the water. They drank all my water

840
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: and all of my cheese. By the end of the

841
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: outing like we were best friends. And we didn't speak

842
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: the same language at all, But I remember thinking, you know,

843
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: I'm connecting with these three little kids in nice France.

844
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: Music of us speaks the same language. At one point,

845
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: one of them said, mo wanna and me saying a

846
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: little bit of mohanna, and like we both understood. We

847
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: all understood, mo wanna. You know, the world is huge

848
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: but also small. And four year old little babies who

849
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: only speak French can find an American who cannot understand

850
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: them and get her to play with them in the

851
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: water and saying Mohana with them and eat all of

852
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: our cheese. I love that so much. That's great, And yeah,

853
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: women should not miss out on these experiences just because

854
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: we're women, just because society tells us that for men

855
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: it's okay to be a rugged explorer. But for a woman,

856
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, either you you're bringing your your own death

857
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: on yourself or you're like a sad, pathetic rat if

858
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: you if you dare to travel alone. By living in

859
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: a society that pushes these notions, we're telling women that

860
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: it's okay to miss out on those kinds of experiences

861
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: that really can shape us. Yeah. The Guardian puts this

862
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,760
Speaker 1: really well. Travel has historically been, and to an extent

863
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,879
Speaker 1: still is, seen as a natural, bold activity for men

864
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: and a risky or frivolous pursuit for women. As with

865
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: so many other forms of low level sexism, the knock

866
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: on impact is enormous. At a local level. Curtailment of

867
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: travel can prevent women from accessing healthcare, visiting family, are

868
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: taking job opportunities. When we restrict women's wider freedom, we

869
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: also curtail their ability to broaden their horizons and acquire

870
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: valuable language skills. We do have some tips if you're

871
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: planning on traveling solo. Number one, give someone back home

872
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: your itinerary. This is always fun for me because again

873
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: I travel and secret now from my family. But it

874
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: I can only give me yourary and perfect. I'll be

875
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: your person if you need it. Perfect. Yeah, because for

876
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: a while I would just send it to them after

877
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 1: I had already left. But then again, they're going to

878
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: find someone to call, and I'll some random dude will

879
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: come up to me and be like, you should call

880
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: your parents or okay, along those lines, take pictures of

881
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: all your documents and put them on a locked site

882
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: like dropbox that can access from any computer. Schedule a

883
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: regular check in with someone back home. Bring emergency contraception

884
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: in case you're someplace where you can't get it easily. Similarly,

885
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: make sure your medications, whatever they may be if you

886
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 1: need them, are filled out. You don't need to get

887
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: new ones while you're traveling. And yeah, trust your instincts.

888
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: Do some research. If you want to go and you

889
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: have the means to go. We really recommend it. Yes,

890
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: and you can come back and write me a long,

891
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: cheesy email about how spiritual your journey was and I

892
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 1: will love it. Oh, we would love to hear those

893
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: and pictures too, always pictures. So yeah. That brings us

894
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 1: to the end of this episode and to our listener

895
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: mail and we're starting out within international one one from

896
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: New Zealand. In response to our episode on the New

897
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: Zealand Prime Minister Rachel wrote, I thought i'd fill you

898
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: in on my own New Zealand experience. I'm a born

899
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: and bred Kiwi and a working mother like my own

900
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 1: mom before me. My boy is now eight and a half,

901
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: so that sets the timeline. When he was born, paid

902
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: parental leave was fourteen weeks duration, and in New Zealand

903
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: this is paid by the government. It will be twenty

904
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 1: six weeks long thanks to gas senda. Let's just say

905
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 1: that I'd rather pay high taxes than not have this

906
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: kind of support for all parents did do healthcare and

907
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 1: accident conversation, but that's another story. This is the part

908
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: you may find surprising. It's actually very frowned upon for

909
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: mothers to not take maternity leave here and highly unusual

910
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 1: to only to the pay parental lead period, and it's

911
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: not for the mother's sacre health. It's because most people

912
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: believe moms and babies should be bonding. Employers must hold

913
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: your position open for twelve months. Most women take at

914
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: least six months. If you take less, there is a

915
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: very standard view that you're a cold, hard, selfish bitch

916
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: who shouldn't be having children if your job is so

917
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: important to you. Sad but true. It's definitely not common

918
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: for moms to go back full time straightaway, and this

919
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 1: is what just send a faces, not that she's a

920
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 1: bad prime minister for taking six weeks off, but that

921
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: she's a bad mother for only taking six weeks off,

922
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: and in reality both. There are still biases and assumptions

923
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 1: made in New Zealand about family dynamics. For example, my

924
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 1: husband was the main caregiver and point of contact for

925
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 1: child related things until he got his dream job after

926
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: four years of steady but during that time I had

927
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: to train people to call him and not me. Everyone

928
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 1: still assumes mom is the person to call because the

929
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: woman must be the main caregiver. Given a choice of

930
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: two names and numbers, they will pick the female every time.

931
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: To this day, I earned more than double and worked

932
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 1: ten hours more pore week than my husband. He does

933
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 1: the school run and makes a school lunch and does

934
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: significantly more than most dads. He's still the main contact

935
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: on everything. Yet they still call mom. I had a

936
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 1: call last year while in business in North America where

937
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: the school asked if I could come collect my son

938
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: who had fallen ill um. Not today, I know. It's

939
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: certainly completely normal in New Zealand for women to work

940
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 1: for couples to buy a house and have a baby

941
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: and then take another decade to marry if ever, and

942
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 1: it's generally assumed that most women aged forty will take

943
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: time off for babies at some point. Yes, there are

944
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: still all employers, but our labor laws no pun intended,

945
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: are pretty robust. However, it's still not normal for dads

946
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: to be the primary caregiver and not normal for the

947
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: mom to be the main earner or working longer hours

948
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 1: than the dad. And to me, this is the revolutionary

949
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: thing about just Senda and Clark not having a baby

950
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: while in office, but saying ads can do it too.

951
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: Dads are parents too. They're not masculine arm candy, capable

952
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: only of making money. They are practical, caring and able

953
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: to multitask, and that it's no big deal. Women working

954
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: does not emasculate men, because there is nothing more manly

955
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: than a capable dad who cares where the money comes from.

956
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: It took my husband years to come to grips with

957
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: not earning, and I was afraid to be too bossy,

958
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,959
Speaker 1: or to fix stuff myself, or to do traditional man

959
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: task for fear of making him feel emasculated. Clark is

960
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: doing as much for feminism here as just Senda is

961
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: by saying, hey, dad's there's nothing wrong with being is

962
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: to stay at home dad so that your wife can

963
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: continue to be very successful. It's okay choosing the dad

964
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 1: life as your new career. Are choosing what's best for

965
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: your family over your own sense of what men should

966
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: or should not do. Clark is providing an important role

967
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: model for men which directly makes it easier for women

968
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: to be powerful and successful, as is Just send it

969
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,919
Speaker 1: by saying, hey, they are two parents. They are doing

970
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:57,959
Speaker 1: this as a team, and I believe they are also

971
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: doing a lot for feminism as a team. Well. That

972
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 1: was so cool to hear from somebody from New Zealand

973
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: about your experience and the politics they're they're also pictures,

974
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: and they were great. Yeah. I also it hadn't even

975
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: occurred to me the idea that he is also modeling

976
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,319
Speaker 1: that it's okay to be a stay at home dad,

977
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 1: it's okay doing feminism as a team. I love that.

978
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,439
Speaker 1: That's such a great aspirational thing for couples. Her letter

979
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: also reminds me of this really messed up thing that

980
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,959
Speaker 1: I was just reading about this trend piece about how

981
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: that sort of trendy thing that co workers are giving

982
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: to their colleagues when they have a baby is to

983
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: donate some of their sick times so they can have

984
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: actual maternity leave. And it was framed as, Oh, it's

985
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: this cool thing that women are doing, donating sick times

986
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: so that women who have babies can hang out with

987
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: their kid. And I was like, oh, my god, that's

988
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: actually awful, Like, what kind of dystopian nightmare is this

989
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 1: that we have such a messed up system that people

990
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: are donating their own sick time so that people can

991
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: spend time with their babies. Yeah, that should not that.

992
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: It's not a good thing. That is a sad thing,

993
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: at least to me, I understand like the people doing it.

994
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: That is like a kind choice, but it shouldn't be

995
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: that that is what we're relying on. Yeah, that's messed up.

996
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 1: It was really interesting, like because it's so different from

997
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 1: the United States, which he was describing, like we do

998
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: have that kind of looking down on women for not

999
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: spending more time with their kids, but also we don't

1000
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: have maternity leave, So it's just an interesting difference between

1001
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: the two countries. In an effort to save my obviously

1002
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,439
Speaker 1: be draggled voice, Andy, can you hit us with another letter?

1003
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: I can, Tim wrote in response to our episode on

1004
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: The Men of Me Too. One thing I wanted to

1005
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: say is that while deeply appreciate the work Mr Cruz

1006
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: is doing and I sincerely admire strength and courage, I

1007
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: think it's worth pointing out that being as handsome and

1008
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: physically powerful as he is might provide him with a

1009
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: little more societal protection than men that are already perceived

1010
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 1: as a less man skill in. I love that he

1011
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: is speaking out. I love that he is examining masculinity

1012
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: from his successful, knowledgeable position. This is not a butt,

1013
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 1: it is a yes. And I know he's being attacked

1014
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: publicly and he's taking a substantial risk by speaking out

1015
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: as a small or less attractive guy. I know that

1016
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 1: I would have to speak about an experience like this differently,

1017
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: already opening myself up for retribution or relegation that I

1018
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: have less outward masculine manifestation to fend off. Does that

1019
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: make sense? It seems that one of the ways masculinity

1020
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 1: works to preserve the status quo is by attacking descent

1021
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: in such a way that it demands a traditional masculine response,

1022
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: almost a doubling down on madness. A large, muscular, successful,

1023
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: attractive man already has this significant amount of masculine cache.

1024
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: I love that Mr Cruz is using that cache and

1025
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: his position to critically examine masculinity. Way to go, Terry.

1026
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: I just know from my own experience that it can

1027
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: be very difficult to be critical of masculinity without needing

1028
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: to resort to gendered demonstration or defense, sometimes quite literally.

1029
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: As we continue to rethink or even dismantle masculinity, I

1030
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: think it's important to look at the ways masculinity police

1031
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: is itself and to ask how those perhaps more vulnerable

1032
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 1: in the hierarchy can fight against it without perpetuating its patterns. Yeah,

1033
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,240
Speaker 1: I really want to deeply, deeply, deeply thank you Tim

1034
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: for this letter. It really does a nice job of

1035
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: examining an aspect of the situation that I actually didn't

1036
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: even think about. How as a handsome, successful, kind of

1037
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: beefy guy he does get a different reaction and that

1038
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: men who don't necessarily fit that bill would have to

1039
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 1: go about it very differently. Just just another interrogation of

1040
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: have kind of the trip of patriarchy and how so

1041
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: invested in masculinity looking at a certain kind of way,

1042
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: performing masculinity in a certain kind of way. Yeah. I

1043
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: loved this as well, because I think a lot of

1044
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: times there's just so much at play, and because it's

1045
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: so complicated issue, I think it gets reduced. But it

1046
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: is a nuanced conversation. There is a lot going into

1047
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 1: the conversations around it, and I think it's good that

1048
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 1: we are talking about those nuances and how they might

1049
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: impact masculinity. Um, the whole thing. Um. Yeah, I was

1050
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: really enlightening. So thanks to both of them for writing in.

1051
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 1: You two can write as our email is mom Stuff

1052
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:25,240
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com, or if social media

1053
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 1: is more your thing, you can find us on Instagram

1054
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: at stuff I've Never told you, and on Twitter at

1055
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our producer at

1056
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: Kathleen Quillian, and thanks to you for listening.