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Speaker 1: M Hi. I'm Ethan Natalman, and this is Psychoactive, a

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Speaker 1: production of my Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is

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Speaker 1: the show where we talk about all things drugs. But

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Speaker 1: any views expressed here do not represent those of my

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Speaker 1: Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed,

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Speaker 1: as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may

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Speaker 1: not even represent my own and nothing contained in this

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Speaker 1: show should be used as medical advice or encouragement to

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Speaker 1: use any type of drouth. Hello Psychoactive listeners. So today

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do a deep dive into the issues of

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Speaker 1: legally regulating marijuana in California and specifically in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 1: and all of the challenges that are involved in that.

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Speaker 1: I mean from dealing with state laws and regulators to

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Speaker 1: federal stuff, to coalitions, to all the really challenging issues

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Speaker 1: around equity and trying to diversify participation in the industry.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Kat Packer, and I just get

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Speaker 1: a kick out of this because I first met Cat

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Speaker 1: back in sixteen when she came to work for ME

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Speaker 1: and Drug Policy Alliance working on the campaign Measure sixty

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Speaker 1: four in California to legalize marijuana, which we ultimately won

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Speaker 1: and then lo and Behold. A few months later, she

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Speaker 1: gets appointed by I think the Mayor and City Council

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Speaker 1: of Los Angeles to become the first head of Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles Department of Marijuana Regulation. So, Cat, I love it

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Speaker 1: that you're in this position, and you've now been for

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Speaker 1: many years. But thanks so much for joining me on Psychoactive. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: thank you, Ethan. It's glad to be here with you today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so listen, I know it's been a hell of a

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Speaker 1: ride running this office here. But why don't we first

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Speaker 1: get into how you got into this marijuana issue, how

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Speaker 1: you landed up in this position, your journey and some

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Speaker 1: understanding as it goes back to living in Ohio, going

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Speaker 1: to get a law degree in a master's degree in

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Speaker 1: public policy at Ohio State University. But just tell us

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Speaker 1: that journey of yours. In two thousand and fifty and

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Speaker 1: I was in my last year of law school at

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Speaker 1: Ohio State and I was taking a marijuana law and

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Speaker 1: policy course that's taught by Doug Berman. And it was

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Speaker 1: really through this marijuana law and policy course that I

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Speaker 1: took and some other classes that I was taking, taking

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Speaker 1: Advanced Social Justice, I was taking the race and policy courses,

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Speaker 1: and all at the same time, while I'm learning about

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Speaker 1: the history of cannabis policy reform in the US and

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Speaker 1: some of the cannabis reforms that had started to take

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Speaker 1: place around the country. After I graduated from Ohio State

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Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, I went to try and explore how

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Speaker 1: I could get involved in cannabis policy reform. And my

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Speaker 1: first entry into this space was working for the Responsible

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Speaker 1: Ohio campaign right out of law school in Ohio. And

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Speaker 1: for that campaign, I served as their assistant director of

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Speaker 1: internal Communications, but I did a little bit of everything

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Speaker 1: for the campaign. But what that experience taught me was

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Speaker 1: one how quickly these conversations were going to be happening

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Speaker 1: without all of the appropriate stakeholders at the table, and

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Speaker 1: really how money it was going to move this conversation.

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Speaker 1: That's what I saw in my experience with that campaign.

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Speaker 1: But my passion for cannabis policy reform was really ignited

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Speaker 1: by Michelle Alexander's The New Gym Crow, which I had

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to read while I was in law school

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Speaker 1: and taking the Marijuana Law and Paulice the course and

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Speaker 1: in the New Gym Crow, there was a quote that

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Speaker 1: really struck me and stuck with me as I pursued

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Speaker 1: my interest in cannabis policy reform. The quote is nothing

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Speaker 1: has contributed more to the systematic mass incarceration of people

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Speaker 1: of color in the United States then the War on drugs,

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Speaker 1: and that was such a profound statement to me at

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Speaker 1: the time. And while I was taking this Marijuana lawan

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Speaker 1: Policy course, I had an opportunity to explore some of

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Speaker 1: a c l use work as well, and eventually learned

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Speaker 1: that marijuana arrests accounted for half of all drug arrests

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Speaker 1: in the United States, and that most marijuana arrests were

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Speaker 1: for possession and black and brown folks were disproportionately likely

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Speaker 1: to be arrested for marijuana. And the culmination of, you know,

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Speaker 1: learning all of this information, particularly while taking this marijuana

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Speaker 1: long policy course, led me to write a capstone paper

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Speaker 1: for the Marijuana Law in Policy course titled Marijuana Policy

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Speaker 1: UH is Race Policy. After law school, after working on

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Speaker 1: the Responsible Ohio campaign, as they began to look around

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Speaker 1: the country for opportunities to continue to participate UH in

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Speaker 1: cannabis policy reform, I learned of a one day strategy

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Speaker 1: session that the Drug Policy Alliance was hosting in New

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Speaker 1: York ahead of the United Nations gathering to talk about

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Speaker 1: drug policy. And the title of this one day strategy

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Speaker 1: session was very similar to the title of the Capstone

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Speaker 1: paper that I wrote for this Marijuana long Policy of course,

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Speaker 1: which was something like marijuana uh policy or drug policy

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Speaker 1: is race policy. And that's essentially what led my interest

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Speaker 1: in this work and then eventually working within for the

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Speaker 1: Drug Policy Alliance. So before we move into your coming

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Speaker 1: to DP A Drug Policy Alliance, I remember when that

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Speaker 1: Ohio initiative came up in and it was a real

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Speaker 1: challenge for me. I mean, the first thing was, I

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Speaker 1: see this initiative emerging in Ohio and it seems to

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Speaker 1: be back by ten rich guys, and I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: look around, you do I need to talk to and

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Speaker 1: there's this guy, Doug Berman. I guess you're who happened

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Speaker 1: to be your law professor there? And I called Doug

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Speaker 1: and the first thing he tells me, which was kind

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Speaker 1: of neat, was that he had actually been a student

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Speaker 1: of mine at Princeton back in the late eighties and

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Speaker 1: early nineties. So we had this funny little connection there,

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Speaker 1: and he begins to explain me what's going on, and

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Speaker 1: then they get a call from the guy running the

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Speaker 1: camp pain and what's clear is that he's already raised

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Speaker 1: the money from I think ten major investors, each committing

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Speaker 1: to put in two million dollars apiece into this initiative.

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Speaker 1: And they have a lot of good stuff in mind

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Speaker 1: about democratizing lots of licenses and putting in equity things

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Speaker 1: and all this. But the major flaw in the initiative

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Speaker 1: was that they had also written into it a provision

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Speaker 1: that said that only the ten investors, or technically speaking,

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Speaker 1: the properties they owned, could engage in marijuana production in

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Speaker 1: the state of Ohio in perpetuity. So basically and it

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Speaker 1: constitutionally mandated Ala Gopoli, which was just kind of venal.

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Speaker 1: And I said to the guy, the campaign manager, it's

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Speaker 1: hard to see how we can ever get behind this.

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Speaker 1: He goes, Listen, I'm going forward no matter what. So

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Speaker 1: we agreed, we Drug Policy Alliance, that we would help

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Speaker 1: him draft the thing to make it as good as

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Speaker 1: possible in all other areas, just in case at one,

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Speaker 1: but that we could never endorse it because of that

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Speaker 1: particular provision. Now, as we both know and our listeners

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Speaker 1: may not know. I mean, this is the first major

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Speaker 1: ballot initiative that was basically funded entirely by people wanting

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Speaker 1: to make money. I mean, until that time, and really

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Speaker 1: even through virtually all my fundraising for ballot initiaives, both

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Speaker 1: medical and otherwise, had come from philanthropists and very little

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Speaker 1: from people are hoping to make money in the industry.

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Speaker 1: But here was an opposite example of jumping to the utter,

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Speaker 1: the opposite extreme. And I remember, and this is going

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Speaker 1: to sort of set up the question for you. Here

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Speaker 1: talking with the head of the Ohio State A c.

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Speaker 1: L U and us to commiserating, like what are we

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Speaker 1: gonna do here? Our major objective is ending the harms

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Speaker 1: of prohibition. If this initiative passes, it will cut by

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Speaker 1: maybe ten thousand a year the number of people being

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Speaker 1: arrested for low level marijuana offenses who are disproportionately people

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Speaker 1: of color. But the system they want to set up

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Speaker 1: is fundamentally basically fucked up. And so in the end

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Speaker 1: we didn't take a position. We laid out the pros

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Speaker 1: and cons. But for you, it was already interested in

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Speaker 1: racial justice. It was obviously going to present some of

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Speaker 1: these benefits. How did you come to grips with this

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Speaker 1: initiative campaign that you were going to work with that

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Speaker 1: had this highly offensive, kind of greedy provision in it,

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Speaker 1: even it was doing a lot of good on the

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Speaker 1: other side. Yeah, Ethan, and I just want to say

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Speaker 1: that I think that there were even outside of that provision,

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Speaker 1: there were many flaws with with the campaign itself and

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Speaker 1: with provisions that were included in the campaign. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of things that we've learned in hindsight now

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Speaker 1: being able to see the full extent of what some

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Speaker 1: later reforms have looked like. But to be frank, when

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Speaker 1: the organizers of that campaign first came and presented to

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Speaker 1: Doug Berman's class, I took issue with their organizers and

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time pushing back on their framework.

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Speaker 1: I remember leaving that class very agitated because it was

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Speaker 1: very obvious to me that they weren't having conversations about

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Speaker 1: the impacts that cannabis policy and enforcement prohibition had had

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Speaker 1: on black and brown communities, or it seemed like there

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Speaker 1: was only going to be an effort to talk about

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Speaker 1: it and not actually do anything about it. And it

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Speaker 1: was only after several conversations with Berman, and really just

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Speaker 1: telling myself that this was an opportunity for me to

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Speaker 1: learn as much as I could while I had an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to participate on this campaign and then use all

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Speaker 1: of the things that I learned in my next iteration

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Speaker 1: of the work. And so that's how I approached my

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Speaker 1: participation in the campaign, that I was there for a

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Speaker 1: learning experience, that I knew that there were going to

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Speaker 1: be positions and ideals and people that I would have

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Speaker 1: conflict with, but that I could still use that as

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to learn and then put those lessons to

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Speaker 1: use and the next iteration of whatever I was going

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Speaker 1: to do in cannabis policy reform. So you didn't need

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Speaker 1: to be in a position of publicly defending the initiative. Really, no,

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Speaker 1: all of my work was internal, and so not only

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Speaker 1: did did I get an opportunity to see how the

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Speaker 1: campaign operated, how it was organized, but really the value

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Speaker 1: system of that campaign and working very closely with that

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Speaker 1: campaign's leadership. And while I think they're all fine people,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that the initiative itself was prepared to

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Speaker 1: to accommodate all communities. So then you become aware of

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Speaker 1: drug policy Alliance, and I guess you come to New

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Speaker 1: York to one of our events. And I knew that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to get deeply involved in cannabis policy reform.

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Speaker 1: And I remember telling myself, as a young person who

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Speaker 1: had just graduated from law school, I need to get

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Speaker 1: some more cannabis on my resume. And I knew that

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Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't be able to do that as extensively

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Speaker 1: as I wanted to in Ohio, and so I began

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Speaker 1: to look kind of nationwide to see who was doing

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Speaker 1: some of the work that I was most interested in.

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Speaker 1: And as I was in pursue of that interest, I

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Speaker 1: found online that the Drug Policy Alliance was having this

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Speaker 1: one day strategy session called uh something like drug Policy

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Speaker 1: is Race Policy. And what stood out to me so

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Speaker 1: much about even just the title of that program was

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Speaker 1: that it mirrored the title of the kind of capstone

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Speaker 1: project that I had did from my marijuana lan policy course,

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Speaker 1: where I was looking intentionally at the impact that cannabis

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Speaker 1: prohibition and its enforcement had on the black community and

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Speaker 1: black families. And so I said, this is where I

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Speaker 1: want to be. And I caught a megabus from Ohio

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Speaker 1: to New York, and when it opened, I had an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to meet Asha I was with the Drug Policy Alliance.

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Speaker 1: Actually got a chance to listen to you speak there.

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Speaker 1: But I also had an opportunity to meet Lynn Lyman,

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Speaker 1: who at the time was the state director for the

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Speaker 1: California Office for the Drug Policy Alliance, and she and

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Speaker 1: I it off pretty quickly, and she was informing me

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Speaker 1: that she was in the process of managing a campaign

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Speaker 1: in California and support of California's Proposition sixty four Adult

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Speaker 1: Use of Marijuana Act. And it couldn't have been two

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Speaker 1: and a half months later, after going to New York

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Speaker 1: at the attending the Drug Policy Alliance conference that I

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Speaker 1: had interviewed to serve as the campaign coordinator for Californians

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Speaker 1: for Responsible Marijuana Reform. Within weeks of that interview, I

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Speaker 1: was in Los Angeles. So when you were working on

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Speaker 1: the campaign in that I guess late summer and fall.

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Speaker 1: I guess that's when you and I first met. What

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Speaker 1: was it like for you jumping into this California world

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Speaker 1: and here was an initiative which was not being driven

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Speaker 1: by the money. We were still relying overwhelmingly on philanthropists,

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Speaker 1: and our model was we would not raise money from

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Speaker 1: people in the industry until after we had finished drafting

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Speaker 1: the initiative. We didn't want to be tainted in that way.

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Speaker 1: We would talk with all stakeholders, but we wanted this

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Speaker 1: to be as good public policy as possible. But what

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Speaker 1: was your role in the campaign at that point and

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Speaker 1: what was it like for you? So I served as

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Speaker 1: the campaign coordinator, and my primary responsibility was to coordinate

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Speaker 1: different elements of the campaign, whether that be messaging, two

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Speaker 1: different allies and campaign partners, to out on the groundwork

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Speaker 1: around California, but primarily in Los Angeles organizing, and I

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Speaker 1: have to tell you that I was proud of that work.

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Speaker 1: I'm still proud of that work and the reform that

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Speaker 1: was packaged in the form of Proposition six to four,

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Speaker 1: because at the time it was the most progressive, most

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Speaker 1: criminal justice centered cannabis legalization effort in the country. My

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Speaker 1: primary responsibility was to organize with different stakeholders and allies

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Speaker 1: of the campaign to get across messaging, to do different fundraising,

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Speaker 1: but also spent a lot of time on the ground

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Speaker 1: organizing in and around the city of Los Angeles, and

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Speaker 1: did a lot of engagement, primarily with underserved communities in

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Speaker 1: black and brown communities to try and strategize not only

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Speaker 1: around how we could pass this initiative, but how we

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Speaker 1: could get this initiative to work in our community's favor

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Speaker 1: as it went through uh the implementation stage. And so

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Speaker 1: after the initiative passed in I stayed on with the

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Speaker 1: Drug Policy Alliance as their policy coordinator in the California Office,

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Speaker 1: and at the time my efforts really centered around strategizing

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Speaker 1: and organizing the implementation of the Adult Use of Marijuana Act.

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Speaker 1: So let me just interject here for our listeners. So

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Speaker 1: just here where California marijuana legalization initiative in two thousand

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Speaker 1: sixteen was really a monumental undertaking, and Drug Policy Alliance

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Speaker 1: essentially took the lead on that. Now me it was

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Speaker 1: kind of a kind of coming full circle or coming

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Speaker 1: to a culmination and sort of my career of organizing

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Speaker 1: advocacy from the medical marijuana issue of California. Then the

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Speaker 1: first medical Mariline that should have back in nineties six

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Speaker 1: were able to turn a kind of ambitious local activist

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Speaker 1: effort in the Bay Area into a really successful statewide

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Speaker 1: victory back in really the first time that the nascent

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Speaker 1: drug policy reform movement showed that we could play bowl

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Speaker 1: in the major leagues of American politics, and it was

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Speaker 1: a wild ride thereafter. And there are all sorts of

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Speaker 1: things involving in legislation to try to implement the Medical

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Speaker 1: Marilan initiative and aborted efforts in that regard. One of

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Speaker 1: our first challenges was making sure that only one of

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Speaker 1: those succeeded, and that that one that succeeded was the

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Speaker 1: one that we thought best reflected public policy, and that

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Speaker 1: presumably dp A was taking a lead on. And we

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Speaker 1: were ultimately successful at making sure that our initiative was

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Speaker 1: the only one in the ballot. But we were also

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Speaker 1: not unitary actors when it came to drafting that initiative.

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Speaker 1: We had partners involved in this. Sean Parker, the fellow

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Speaker 1: who had made a lot of money on Facebook and elsewhere,

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Speaker 1: was a major financial supporter, not for for profit reasons,

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Speaker 1: for really good policy reasons, and there were other key players,

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Speaker 1: and there were unions and environmental groups and county law

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Speaker 1: enforcement exactly all sorts of interest that had to be

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Speaker 1: taken into account. So there was a lot of internison

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Speaker 1: conflict leading up to the finalization of our initiative and

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Speaker 1: making sure was the only one in the ballot. There

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Speaker 1: were a lot of allies who were put out at

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Speaker 1: feeling a little sidelined or not getting their preferred provisions

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Speaker 1: into the initiative. So the job that Kat took on

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Speaker 1: was really a crucially important one when I when I

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Speaker 1: served as campaign coordinator and then policy coordinator thereafter, I

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Speaker 1: was boots on the ground for the campaign and had

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to meet many different community based organizations and

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Speaker 1: just had an opportunity engage with so many different stakeholders

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned before. A lot of my day to

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Speaker 1: day organizing, particularly as we focused around implementation, was focused

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Speaker 1: on local control. So many different statewide legalization efforts and

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Speaker 1: most have some level of local control, whether they're allocating

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Speaker 1: authority to local jurisdiction cities and counties to decide often

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Speaker 1: whether or not to even allow for commercial cannabis activity.

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Speaker 1: And then beyond that, when jurisdictions do decide to allow

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Speaker 1: for commercial cannabis activity, the type of regulatory program or

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Speaker 1: controls around time, place, and manner of where these businesses

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Speaker 1: and how these businesses can conduct themselves. And so after

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Speaker 1: the initiative passed in California, many local jurisdictions were put

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Speaker 1: in a position where because adult use sales were to

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Speaker 1: begin on January one, as soon as the initiative passed,

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Speaker 1: there was so much work to be done at both

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Speaker 1: the state and local level to make decisions whether or

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Speaker 1: not folks were going to participate in this life and

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Speaker 1: sing and regulatory effort. And more importantly, as I was

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Speaker 1: doing advocacy in the City of Los Angeles and and

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Speaker 1: really trying to hold the city accountable to what I

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Speaker 1: felt it were principles and values that we have to

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Speaker 1: lead with when we're talking about cannabis policy reform. I

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Speaker 1: was tapped by the mayor to take on the challenge

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Speaker 1: of advising the city and administering its commercial cannabis program

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Speaker 1: in August. I have to tell you now, Ethan, that

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Speaker 1: I said yes, but I had no idea what I

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Speaker 1: was getting myself into. I can imagine that the challenges

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Speaker 1: describing it's not just California, but basically every state where

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Speaker 1: municipalities or counties have a large role to play right

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Speaker 1: both in determining whether or not there will be outlets, dispensaries,

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Speaker 1: and how they be regulating all of that. So that's

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Speaker 1: a generic challenge around the country. Yes, it's a challenge

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Speaker 1: that every single state goes through as they go along

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Speaker 1: their process. I think there are lots of different circumstances

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Speaker 1: and factors that made the challenge that is the City

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Speaker 1: of Los Angeles particularly unique one. The city of Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles and California in general, had this long history of

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Speaker 1: aborted efforts to really address this systematically, and what that

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Speaker 1: meant was that there was a proliferation of cannabis operations

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Speaker 1: in the City of Los Angeles prior to legalization, and

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Speaker 1: a very gray framework, will say, in terms of what

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Speaker 1: was considered legal and what was considered illegal. There's also

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Speaker 1: super high demand to participate in the cannabis industry, and

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Speaker 1: the city of Los Angeles has a population of four million,

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Speaker 1: which is just as large as half of the the

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Speaker 1: states in our country. So we are dealing with a

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Speaker 1: massive effort, and city of Los Angeles is often regarded

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Speaker 1: as the world's largest cannabis market. M We can also

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Speaker 1: provide some context here if you think about it. California

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Speaker 1: was the first state to legalize medical marijuana back in

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Speaker 1: nineties six. Its initiative was far more open ended and

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Speaker 1: far few regulatory provisions than any of the other medical

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Speaker 1: merilin initiatives that succeeded it, both the ones that we

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Speaker 1: had Drug Policy Alliance drafted with local allies of area

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Speaker 1: states as well as that other organizations did, and then

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Speaker 1: that essentially did no statewide regulation of medical marijuana until

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Speaker 1: until basically the year before we did the California Broader

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Speaker 1: adult use legalization initiative. So it essentially had a semi

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Speaker 1: almost statewide unregulated market for twenty years. It had a

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Speaker 1: booming black market, a booming gray market. And only in

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Speaker 1: fifteen does Governor Jerry Brown, who had always been sort

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Speaker 1: of hostile to marijuana reform, does he push forward a

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Speaker 1: final statewide medical marijuana regulatory system a year before initiative,

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Speaker 1: and he does it in a way that creates all

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Speaker 1: of these sort of burdens on us when we're drafting

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Speaker 1: the full legalization initiative to incorporate some of the bullshit

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Speaker 1: that he had insisted be in the medical marijuana regulation one.

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Speaker 1: When you're having all sorts of statewide agencies have a

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Speaker 1: hand on this really creating a really messy, difficult system.

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Speaker 1: So when comes along an initiative gets one, you're dealing

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Speaker 1: not just with this new medical marijuana system that kind

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Speaker 1: of had some carryovers into the legalization initiative, and that

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Speaker 1: tied our hands. But meanwhile, California was far and away

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Speaker 1: the biggest producer, not just market because it's the biggest state,

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Speaker 1: but producing for basically a huge part of the rest

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Speaker 1: of the country illegally as well. Right, And so you

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Speaker 1: have a huge black market, a huge gray market. Some

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Speaker 1: cities are regulating their medical mariwana fairly responsibly, like maybe

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Speaker 1: San Francisco or Oakland or West Holly would in southern California,

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Speaker 1: but a huge amount of unregulated stuff, incredibly dynamic, booming,

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Speaker 1: illicit market industry, which is unlike the situation in most

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Speaker 1: of the rest United States, certainly in New York doesn't

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Speaker 1: have that. New Jersey doesn't have anything resembling the magnitude.

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Speaker 1: And within all of that, Los Angeles was required as

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Speaker 1: sort of the wild West of the wild West, the

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Speaker 1: place where hundreds of unregulated, barely regulated medical marijuana di

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Speaker 1: sturencers had popped up and where the city could seemed

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Speaker 1: to get it together, and where they were competing local

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Speaker 1: ballot initiatives to figure out how to do this thing right.

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Speaker 1: And into this steps you cat packer in the summer

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Speaker 1: of seventeen trying to get a hand on all of this.

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Speaker 1: I just can't imagine what it must have been like

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Speaker 1: to step into that. I mean, you're still in your

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Speaker 1: mid twenties, You're coming out of being an organizer and

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Speaker 1: an advocated drug policy alliance, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you're have tasked with a job of setting up a

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Speaker 1: brand new office and regulating an industry that was really regulated.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about some of the shocks or the realizations

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Speaker 1: they hate you in late eighteen is you tried to

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Speaker 1: get a handle on what what was you needed to do?

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Speaker 1: So even first, what I want to do is use

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Speaker 1: this as an opportunity to point in some language. I've

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Speaker 1: been making an intentional effort since I've started in this role,

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Speaker 1: and since I kind of learned about this problematic language,

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Speaker 1: to not use the term black market. I think moving forward,

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Speaker 1: folks are using terms like unregulated market or unlicensed market.

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Speaker 1: But myself and other folks have made an intentional effort

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Speaker 1: not to use this term black market because there are

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Speaker 1: lots of words in our vocabulary. We're talking about something

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Speaker 1: that's black or brown, and there's a negative connotation like

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Speaker 1: black market, black male, all of these negative connotations that

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Speaker 1: I think we internalize and normalize over time. And so

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Speaker 1: I've been asking folks not to use the term black market.

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Speaker 1: But if they mean unlicensed, and we can say unlicensed.

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Speaker 1: If we mean unregulated, we could say unregulated. What people

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Speaker 1: in California like to call it is the legacy market. Well,

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Speaker 1: I noticed, can't remember. At d p A we made

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Speaker 1: that part of our communications policy to avoid the use

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Speaker 1: of the phrase black market as much as possible. I

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Speaker 1: was using the phrase illicit market. Is that also one

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Speaker 1: that's regarded as sort of not so good? I think

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Speaker 1: that there's a spectrum. I don't necessarily have an issue

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Speaker 1: with that language, but anytime I hear the word black

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Speaker 1: market and I have an opportunity to provide an alternative,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't have a negative, negative racial connotations. Particularly

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Speaker 1: in this drug policy reform space, I think we just

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Speaker 1: have to be open to considering changing our vocabulary. So,

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Speaker 1: but meanwhile, here you are having to deal with this,

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Speaker 1: let's shall we say legacy markets. What does it look

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Speaker 1: like when you begin to get a lay of the land.

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Speaker 1: Sitting there not as an advocate for d p A,

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Speaker 1: but now charged by the city of Los Angeles with

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Speaker 1: getting a handle on all of this and trying to

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Speaker 1: set up a legal regulatory system. When I was appointed

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Speaker 1: by the by mayor air Car City and in augusten,

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Speaker 1: we were less than five months away from when adult

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Speaker 1: use sales were going to begin in the State of

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Speaker 1: California and in the City of Los Angeles. And because

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Speaker 1: of the framework that the State of California created in

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Speaker 1: order to operate on January one, on the first day

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Speaker 1: that those sales were going to begin, businesses need to

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Speaker 1: have both a state license and a local license. It

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Speaker 1: was my department, my agency that was supposed to be

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Speaker 1: responsible for issuing these licenses. At the time, I was

437
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: the only staffer. We did not even have a licensing

438
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: or regulatory framework. As you had mentioned, there was still

439
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: a lot of reconciliation that was happening between the medical

440
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: provisions through the adult use provisions, and the State of

441
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: California really spent the summer in fall winter of working

442
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: through these emergency regulations and local jurisdictions. Laws have to

443
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: of course be consistent with the state laws and the

444
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: state regulations, and so I remember at the time only

445
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: having two other staff members. When we got the last

446
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: iteration of the California Emergency Regulations, and then we essentially

447
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: had to wait for that to happen in December seventeen

448
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: for us to finalize our licensing and regulatory framework. So

449
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: it wasn't until and I still now only have about

450
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: three staff at the time, so it wasn't until December

451
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: of that we had the actual laws and policies regulations

452
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: that my department was going to be responsible for. There

453
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: were dozens of pages that were passed overnight that had

454
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: requirements and restrictions that we were to administer related to

455
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: where these businesses could locate, who could own businesses, the

456
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: types of operations that we're going to be allowed, and

457
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: we're almost given this impossible task of trying to implement

458
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: this program overnight with little to no resources, and that

459
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: led for a kind of a chaotic and tumultuous start

460
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: to our program. And what I've learned over time is

461
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: that every several months there would be comprehensive changes not

462
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: to those particular laws and regulations, and so the challenge

463
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: as a local regulator has been trying to continue to

464
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: administer our municipal code, which of course involves many different agencies.

465
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 1: Fire Department departments, building and safety, issue, building permits, etcetera.

466
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: Coordinating with all of these local agencies state agencies that

467
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: are participating in this permitting process, all the while trying

468
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: to advise our fifteen council members who are elected and

469
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: the mayor secure budget and program resources to expand. And

470
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: that was just the beginning. And meanwhile you're dealing with

471
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: the city council members, the mayor's office, all these other

472
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,479
Speaker 1: varied regulatory agencies in l A that has some roll.

473
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: And at the same time you're dealing with the folks

474
00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: in the statewide regulatory shop where regulations keep changing. So

475
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: it's a kind of multidimensional challenge in every evolving universe

476
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: that you have to keep bouncing around and leaping forward

477
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: to try to set stuff up. Well, if we fast

478
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: forward now, it's been over four years that you've been

479
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: in the office, and it's you know, really a testament

480
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: to you to stay in a position as demanding as

481
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: that for so long. But how have things evolved in

482
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: terms of what's going on in the ground, in terms

483
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: of the respective roles of the state regulatory agency and

484
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: the city council, In terms of the political support you

485
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: get within the city of Los Angeles. How would you

486
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: describe that evolution over the last four years. At times

487
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: it feels like there are a thousand things happening at once.

488
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: As an organizer who stepped into this regulatory role, I

489
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: kind of lived my life on the legislative cycle in

490
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: different reforms that we try to pass year to gear.

491
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: But we've made a lot of progress over the course

492
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: of the last four and a half years. But that

493
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: progress has still been challenged by what I'd say is

494
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: a lack of adequate resources. We're all similarly struggling people

495
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: who are actively in these government positions, regulators, local state regulators,

496
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: trying to manage these programs. Many of us well intended

497
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: or are trying our best to manage these efforts with

498
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: very few resources and also not necessarily having the benefit

499
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: of all of the information that is being gathered within

500
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: each of our programs. I think that there's a real

501
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: need for a strategic coordination amongst all of the different,

502
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: diverse stakeholders that are involved in this process. But I

503
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: think that's what's needed moving forward. Right now, I have

504
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: a team of thirty staff hoping to be able to

505
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: bring on twenty one additional positions in the next fiscal year.

506
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: We've been making a real intentional effort to expand business

507
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: development programming aimed at communities that have been most impacted

508
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: by the War on drugs in cannabis prohibition. And while

509
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: there have been against successes in those efforts, I think

510
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: that those even though successes, have come slowly and the pace,

511
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: I think has come at a real cost to to

512
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: our our efforts overall. So let's get into that, because

513
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: I remember when we drafted Prop. Sixty four, we were

514
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: very proud of some of the racial and social equity

515
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: provisions we guide in there. It made sense that those

516
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: communities and individuals that have been most harmed by the

517
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: war marijuana and the War on drugs should get a

518
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: sort of special dispensation or special effort to allow them possibilities. Now,

519
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: when you look back over the laws that have passed

520
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: since that time in New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, New Jersey,

521
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: I think what we did in California seems less impressive

522
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: in retrospect. It's also true that what one could do

523
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: in terms of equity issues was probably much more substantial.

524
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: When a legalization law passes through a state legislature where

525
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: you have my powerful minority legislative coalitions wishing this, then

526
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: one can do in a ballot initiative where you have

527
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: a broader population, generally mostly white, who's at best mildly

528
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: sympathetic and oftentimes indifferent too, are hostile to this. But

529
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: a lot of what I've seen is this continuing challenges

530
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: over as I think you just said it. On the

531
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: one hand, trying to get the best possible system set

532
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: up so that you can get the licenses out effectively regulated,

533
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: get out as many as possible, start, do a good job,

534
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: promote public safety and public health, maximized tax revenue. But

535
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: on the other hand, a very conscientious effort to try

536
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: to build in these equity provisions and to give a

537
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: foot up to people who lack the capital or the training,

538
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: or or I have other handicaps in terms of getting

539
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: into this industry. And so what I wonder is, as

540
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: you look at it now, do you see models? I mean,

541
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: are when you look around and obviously you network with

542
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: other municipal marijuana director you're running the biggest city, second

543
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: biggest city in a merry at the first biggest in California,

544
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: do you see places that offer some models about how

545
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: to do this? Better. Do you look at the New

546
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: York law and say, Wow, I wish we had some

547
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: of that stuff here. Yeah, I think there's a lot

548
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: of me looking around and wishing that we had stuff here.

549
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: But I also recognized that I'd like to say that

550
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: California set the floor, and other jurisdictions that have come

551
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: after us have had the benefit of being able to,

552
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: you know, learn from our mistakes, but also learn from

553
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: some of our successes. Uh As as I talked to

554
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: other regulators, I think that there are there are obviously

555
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: models that exist, but whether or not they're models that

556
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: should be replicated, I think remains to be seen. And

557
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: I think part of the challenge is that we're not

558
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: having the benefit ethan of being able to learn from

559
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: all of the models because things are moving so quickly.

560
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: I am regularly in communication with jurisdictions that are getting

561
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: ready to or thinking about launching their programs, and we

562
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: have our long conversations. But there's only so much that

563
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: can be gathered and shared in this piece mill way,

564
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: and it kind of gets replicated over and over again.

565
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: But we really need efforts dedicated at think tanking all

566
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: of these different pieces and gathering information from all regulators

567
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: to figure out what specific strategies and inputs are going

568
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: to produce different outcomes, because within each of our jurisdictions

569
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 1: there are, you know, factors and circumstances that make our

570
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,439
Speaker 1: case study unique. And so I don't know that we're

571
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: going to be able to establish something that that people

572
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: can copy and pace. But my frustration thus far is

573
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: that I think that there's, in an effort to respond

574
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 1: to criticisms of doing nothing in terms of equity, many

575
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: jurisdictions can just take a copy and pace model without

576
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: really thinking through how do we establish strategies that reduce

577
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: barriers to injury? How do we systematically identify by an

578
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: address disparities that exist across the board. And that's the

579
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: work that needs to be done in order for the

580
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: City of Los Angeles to have the type of outcomes

581
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: that we want to have, the State of New York

582
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: to have the outcomes that they want to have. I

583
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: think that in many ways where we're not working as

584
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: hard as we need to, and in some areas we're

585
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 1: obviously working more harder than we need to because we're

586
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: not collaborating and strategizing and trying to push for joint

587
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: efforts at the federal level. Who's the way there. When

588
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 1: you say we're not collaborating, I want to say all

589
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: of the different stakeholders that are involved in this process.

590
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 1: It's it's regulators, law enforcement, it's industry, it's it's public

591
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: health officials. I mean, I think you and I have

592
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: had the benefit of being able to be at the

593
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: center of this network. That's part of why we call

594
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: it a movement as because we all collectively have to

595
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: be trying to move in the same direction. But it

596
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: just seems like in the in the grand scheme of

597
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: day to day management of some of these different program elements,

598
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: it's difficult to coordinate and collaborate in the ways that

599
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: we need to because we've got our hands full with

600
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: the one thousand policy decisions that need to be made

601
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: at the state and local level. As I was prepping

602
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: for my conversation with you, I was going through some

603
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: of the media last few years, and I could see

604
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: when you first get appointed, there's all this huge enthusiasm,

605
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: is oftimes the case, but especially you're being a young

606
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: black woman coming from an advocacy background, appointed to this position,

607
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: having obviously equity concerns, fund and Center and then a

608
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: few years later, I see people coming from the minority

609
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: business community others who want to go getting so angry

610
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: at you and attacking you and stuff like that, And

611
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: I know how incredibly difficult to mean, people have unreals expectations.

612
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: Not everybody's going to get a license. There's a whole complicated,

613
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: bureaucratic mess. But I mean, how was that for you,

614
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: and how is that for you? Dealing with that sort

615
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: of stuff. It's it's difficult, it's exhaust thing, but I

616
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: think it's worthwhile. I think the reality is that you

617
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: have to show up and do the work, even when

618
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: people are unhappy. You have to show up and do

619
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: the work. I think that there's a lot of work

620
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: that has to get done internally within organizations, within agency,

621
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: within government institution before the outcomes, before the consequences of

622
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: that initial effort is recognized. And I'm comfortable doing the

623
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: work even before those outcomes are available. And that's what

624
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us who step into these

625
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: roles for the first time, leading leading these agencies from

626
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: the ground up or dealing with But I do think

627
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: that it was particularly difficult as someone who organized alongside

628
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: some of these individuals and organizations. I think it was

629
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: difficult both for UH them and for me for that

630
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: relationship to change almost overnight, and I had to communicate

631
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: of folks that because of this new role, my relationship

632
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: is going to change with you, And I think that

633
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: that was difficult, in particular for some of the stakeholders

634
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: that I engage most regularly with. But I all think

635
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: that it kind of ebbs and flows. Some of the

636
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: same folks who have been most critical of the Department

637
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: of Me personally, I work with on a daily basis

638
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, there's work to

639
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 1: be done, and so I don't have to agree with

640
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: folks on everything. But where there is agreement, let's do

641
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: the work. We'll be talking more after we hear this.

642
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: Add Just at the end of there were a whole

643
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: bunch of articles, a wave of articles, not just in

644
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: the California media, but the national media, seeing that California

645
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: marijuana disaster. Nobody's making money in the industry. People are

646
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: tell talking about going out of business that basically the

647
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: legacy markets, the unregulated markets on tax paying markets are

648
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: two to three times people think the size of the

649
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 1: legal market, the taxation structure is onerous and punitive. It's

650
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: a goddamn mess, and what are we gonna do about it? Now?

651
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: We're talking now in mid January, and I just saw

652
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: that Governor Newsom, who was one of our key allies

653
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: on the marijuana legalization initiative. In fact, I think that

654
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: one of the first statewide leaders in America to step

655
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: out boldly in supporting marijuana legalization. But he's saying, I

656
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: get it. I recognized we gotta change the tax structure,

657
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: we gotta change the regulatory context. But there's certain things

658
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: that we're counting on to come from the tax revenue,

659
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: so we just can't eliminate the taxes. So what's your

660
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 1: perspective when you look at all this hand ringing? And

661
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,959
Speaker 1: I saw somebody like Michael Steinmitz, one of the guys

662
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 1: running Flocana, one of the marijuana he's up north in California, saying,

663
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: we're just going to refuse to pay our taxes. This

664
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 1: is becoming so onerous now, you know, going a tax strike.

665
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: What's your sense about this statewide situation? And is California

666
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: going to begin to get a handle on it this year?

667
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: Is there going to be effective statewide regulation? Do you

668
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: and other municipal directors have input into this process. What

669
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: can you tell us? So, what I can tell you

670
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: is that I have a very close relationship with a

671
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: coal who leads the efforts of the cannabis department at

672
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: the state, and I have confidence in her leadership and

673
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: the team that she's assembled. Really over the course of

674
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: the last year, as the California cannabis licensing agencies have consolidated.

675
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: That being said, there's still a lot of work to

676
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: do in order to move this industry forward in a

677
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: way that is more responsible. I think that for many

678
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: folks it is still messy, it is still chaotic. I

679
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: think that for many entrepreneurs oarporticularly folks who have been

680
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: in it, who started this several years ago, this has

681
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: been a painful process, and I think it's it's important

682
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that because I think that we can find

683
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,439
Speaker 1: ways over time to provide relief. I have confidence that

684
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 1: it's something that can be done. I think the challenge

685
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: is going to be whether or not folks are willing

686
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: to compromise about what we're asking for and clear in

687
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: what our objectives are. And it has to be a

688
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: collective effort. I mean, for as much as can be

689
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: said about what the California cannabis regulatory program has gotten wrong.

690
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: There are so many jurisdictions, local jurisdictions, other states that

691
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: aren't participating at all, and so I think we have

692
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: to be in a position where we can constantly make improvements.

693
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 1: But I think we're in a position both here in California,

694
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: uh and in other jurisdictions where we we need a

695
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: We can't do this in a piece mill way. We

696
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: have to be able to make bold and comprehensive reforms

697
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: now because the slow pace comes at a cost across

698
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: the border. Yeah, I mean, can I'll say, I mean

699
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: when I step back big picture, people would always ask

700
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: me what I envisioned about the consequences and legalization, and

701
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: my answer would be essentially that, look, I'm not fighting

702
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: for the moral orderization or budweiserization of marijuana markets. I

703
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: much prefer to see the smallest, beautiful model. But I

704
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 1: know that we live in the most dynamic capitalist society

705
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: in the world, if not in history. And then if

706
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: you look at other things, the transition from alcohol prohibition,

707
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: I mean, after we got rebuilt nineteen thirty three, there

708
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: was a huge black market for many years before things

709
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: finally shook out, and eventually the the illicit market kind

710
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: of really faded into really playing a minor role. Or

711
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: I even think about the fact that I almost make

712
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: the analogy. You look at something like what happened with

713
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: coffee when Starbrooks comes in and it sort of takes

714
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: over the world. Living in New York City, I see

715
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: all the small car fee shops shutting down. But now

716
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: I look around and I see that there's more small

717
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: coffee shops than ever before, and that Starbucks is still

718
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: out there, but they no longer dominate the way they did.

719
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 1: And so I sometimes wonder whether there's just this almost

720
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: inevitability to the sort of capitalist forces at work, that's

721
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: the nature of the world we live in. There's in

722
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: the end those stopping it. That we have a moral

723
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: obligation to try to do what we can do in

724
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: terms of advance as small as beautiful or a racial

725
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: equity model in all this. But over time we'll be

726
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: able to get this thing right. And I think in

727
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,879
Speaker 1: the California context, which is unique in terms of the

728
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: magnitude and size of the illicit market here in the

729
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: market not just selling to Californians, but exporting to the

730
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: rest of the country, that there has to be a

731
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: priority on trying to reduce the magnitude of of this

732
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: illicit market and move as much as possible will into

733
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: a legally regulated market, which may mean things like reducing

734
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: some of the regulatory barriers, reducing some of the taxation.

735
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: What's your thoughts about that. I think that we have

736
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: to make it way easier for folks to do what

737
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: we're asking them to do. That's for businesses, for consumers.

738
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: We've got to make it easier for folks to do

739
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: what we say is a good public health, public safety strategy.

740
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: And so I think lowering taxes, making regulations less complex,

741
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: making licensing more accessible is absolutely things that should be

742
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: on the top of our to do list. But I

743
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: think that we we have to think about how we

744
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: balance that with with an enforcement strategy, because the reality

745
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: is that we're not going to have a successful licensed

746
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: and regulated market if there isn't an enforcement strategy. But

747
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: I think we have to be careful not to replicate

748
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: the drug war by allowing criminal infor sent to take

749
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: the lead. And so I think that there are ways

750
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: that we can combine providing access to licensure, access to resources,

751
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: to help folks get through the process, tax breaks, the

752
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: lower ring of tax rate, all of those things combined,

753
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: but also looking at how we can have an alternative

754
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 1: to what our historic and existing enforcement strategy has been.

755
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: One of the ways we've been trying to do that

756
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: here in the in the City of Los Angeles is

757
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: by doing things like utilizing utility disconnection or padlocking buildings,

758
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: using our Building and Safety Department or Department of Water

759
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: and Power again to disconnect utilities as agencies that can

760
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 1: lead in these efforts that aren't police or criminal enforcement

761
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: taking the lead. Well, let me ask you this. I mean,

762
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: I sometimes reflect back on the initiative of d p

763
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: A where we play such a big role. We were

764
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,479
Speaker 1: talking to folks in the environmental activism area, We're talking

765
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: to labor unions, we were talking to people a whole

766
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: host of areas, and so we put in stuff requiring

767
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: environmental protection stuff, and water quality protection stuff, and and

768
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: some labor type stuff. And I sometimes wonder if we

769
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: went too far in that regard, essentially holding the cannabis

770
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 1: industry to a higher standard, not just on on racial

771
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: equity issues, on issues that people have been subject to

772
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: have been harmed by the War on drugs, but even

773
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: more broadly, And I also sometimes wonder where we too,

774
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: because we went out of our way to minimize the

775
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 1: severity of the penalties for people operating outside the legal market.

776
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: But if you look back about what we might have

777
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 1: done differently with this initiative, are there things that really

778
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,879
Speaker 1: stand out to you that could have made it work

779
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: a lot better. Yeah, I definitely think that the environmental

780
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 1: requirements as I engage with stakeholders across the state, them

781
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: being held to a higher standard is coming as a

782
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: real cost. So I think that that's one of the

783
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: areas that probably went too far. I think that there's

784
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: a delicate balance between the pros and cons of local control,

785
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: and I say that as a local regular there. But

786
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 1: part of the challenges is that there are so many

787
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: jurisdictions in the state of California that aren't participating. I

788
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: think that part of that is because there hasn't been

789
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: the infrastructure to help them figure out what it is

790
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: that they need to do. I think that that's going

791
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: to take a while for folks to be able to

792
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 1: revisit that, and the kind of allocation of the tax structure.

793
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: I know that Proposition sixty four was one of the

794
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: first efforts that allowed for expungement of cannabis records. But

795
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: I think part of what we've learned in hindsight is

796
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: that in order for those types of reforms to be

797
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 1: as effective and impactful, they need to be free and

798
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: automatic to folks. So I think that there are lots

799
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: of lessons that we can learn in hindsight. But I

800
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 1: also think that there are several actions that can be

801
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: taken today, both at the state level and at the

802
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: local level, to to try uh and address this. And again,

803
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: you may not see the results of decisions that are

804
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: made today until two, three, five years from now, but

805
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: if that's the work that needs to to be done,

806
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: at least needs to be started. So let's go back

807
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: to these issues around equity again. It's just recently a

808
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: big rally in the state capital, Sacramento around the equity issues,

809
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 1: and I think there's a plans to have a local

810
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: initiative on the ballot in Los Angeles, the Los Angeles

811
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: Equity Fund Initiative, in which our former colleague Glenn Lineman

812
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: is playing a role. What do you think about these efforts?

813
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: This local initiative Effort and some of these other ones. Well,

814
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: I'm glad to see communities organizing in support of themselves

815
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 1: because I think that what happens a lot of times

816
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: is that there is a lot of deference that is

817
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: given to some elected officials, even regulators, and folks think

818
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: that they don't need to participate. The reality is that

819
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: in order to see the types of reforms that are

820
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: going to allow us to do this more responsible, responsibly,

821
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 1: and more equitably, we have to have collective participation across

822
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: the board. And so I'm happy to seem unities organizing

823
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 1: across the state and support of making sure that folks

824
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: have access to participate in the industry and have resources

825
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: they need to be sustainable in the industry. I think

826
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: part of what you're referencing Ethan in terms of some

827
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: initiatives that may be happening in Los Angeles is really

828
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: centered around transparency of where cannabis tax revenue is going.

829
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: And I think that this is one of the biggest

830
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: pieces that often gets missed in some of these conversations

831
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: around equity and reform. Generally, we always got to follow

832
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: the money in terms of the cannabis tax revenue. I

833
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 1: think there's of course resources that go into and are

834
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: necessary to administer these programs, but where is the rest

835
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,959
Speaker 1: of the money going. And communities here in the city

836
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: of Los Angeles, in California and across the United States

837
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: that want to see that community that revenue go back

838
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: to communities that have been impacted by cannabis prohibition because

839
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: cannabis prohibition and its enforcement led to the vestment of communities,

840
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 1: and there are opportunities for us to use those resources

841
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: to build back these communities stronger. And so I think

842
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: that's part of what's happening in the City of Los

843
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 1: Angeles and what we've seen, and if I think folks

844
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles or or leading that effort because elected

845
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 1: officials haven't, but in other jurisdictions we've seen, particularly when

846
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: legislators are leading these efforts. We've seen jurisdictions like Illinois,

847
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: New York, Virginia, New Jersey dedicating significant percentages of their

848
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: tax revenue to communities who have been most impacted. UH

849
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: And in the grand scheme of things, that may have

850
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 1: a greater impact on equity reform efforts overall. They can

851
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: then fund different elements of equity efforts than some of

852
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: the work that's being done to allocate a few licenses

853
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: here and there, the reality is that everybody who wants

854
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: a license isn't gonna get one. People who everybody who

855
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 1: gets a license isn't going to keep their their license.

856
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: And so as we think about disparities that exist and

857
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: how we can strategize to address those disparities, we have

858
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: to think about what the impact of some of these

859
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 1: programs are going to have. And I've been happy to

860
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: see over time that this concept of equity has rightfully

861
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: expanded beyond equity and licensing to include assessments of things

862
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: like equity and health and the distribution of cannabis tax

863
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: revenue and enforcement. Moving forward, all of these different data

864
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: points need to be tracked, I think, in order for

865
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 1: us to sit here and assess whether any individual program

866
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 1: or strategy is working without that information is ill informed.

867
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: Well let me ask you this. One of the issues

868
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: that comes up in the equity thing is about access

869
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 1: to capital, and that by and large, folks of the money,

870
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: typically white people, have better access that are experiencing getting

871
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: it all this sort of stuff. And now, in terms

872
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: of federal legislation, and there's this debate whether or not

873
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: to pass the Safe Banking Act, which would presumably ease

874
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 1: access to capital for you know, poor people, including people

875
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: of color, or basically to say we're not going to

876
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: allow that to pass until we've addressed broader issues around equity.

877
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: And this has played out where the House of Representatives

878
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: has passed both the More Act, which integrates the whole thing.

879
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: It's kind of a comprehensive good bill that includes all

880
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: the equity issues as well as Safe Banking Act and

881
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 1: a whole range of other things. But in the Senate

882
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 1: there doesn't look to be any real support to go

883
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 1: for a broader thing anytime soon, and the Democrats have

884
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: a very good chance of losing control of the Senate

885
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,919
Speaker 1: at the end of this year. So from where you sit,

886
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: what's your feeling about this issue. Would you like to

887
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: see this Safe Banking Act at the federal level just

888
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 1: go through because it actually would help your efforts around

889
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: equity locally, or do you think it's better to say

890
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: hold off, hold off, even if it takes years until

891
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 1: we get a more comprehensive package through. So I have

892
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: to tell you first, access to capital is a real barrier,

893
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,800
Speaker 1: a marked barrier to industry, to participation in the cannabis

894
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: industry here in the city of Los Angeles and California

895
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 1: across the nation. It's difficult for us to administer our

896
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: equity program and to see the benefits associated with our

897
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: equity program. Our our efforts are thwarted because our applicants,

898
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: because this industry has historically and continues to lack access

899
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: to capital and banking services. However, you're asking me what

900
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: what my opinion is today. I don't want to see

901
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: banking reform prioritized above the multitude of other issues that

902
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: need to be addressed at the federal level. I think

903
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: we're signaling our priorities always in our decision making, and

904
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 1: it's just kind of crazy to me that we are

905
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 1: priority using businesses and their concerns, albeit black and brown

906
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 1: businesses have these concerns too, but above individuals and communities

907
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: that have been impacted. So as much as I see

908
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: day to day and deal with the challenges of an

909
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: industry's lack of access to banking, I also see many

910
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: other impacts that federal prohibition continues to have on our

911
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: community in the industry at large. Yeah, I have to

912
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: say I've really been torn about it because I keep

913
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: very close to my successors the Drug Policy Alliance on

914
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: these policy issues, and I really admire the way they

915
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 1: put together a coalition New Yorpe to pull together a

916
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 1: comprehensive bill, and the moment was right with very strong

917
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: Democratic majorities and COMO being not really all that keen

918
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 1: and marijuana reform being hostile, and so I think they

919
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: played it right on the federal thing, where what I

920
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: see is essentially a lot of people saying, look, when

921
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: it comes to access to capital, A lot of the

922
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: biggest marijuana businesses, which are you know, generally white owned,

923
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 1: that they already have access capital, they have other ways

924
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: of getting it. This is an issue for them. It's

925
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,240
Speaker 1: a much bigger issue for the smaller guys. And meanwhile,

926
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: when you look at the politics, there aren't even fifty

927
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: Democrats to support a broader kind of more social justice

928
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: oriented marijuana legalization model right now, never mind the fact

929
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: that there are no Republicans to do it, and a

930
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: very good chance that the Democrats may lose their powers.

931
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 1: And I worry in fact that either this thing is

932
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: just gonna not get taken care of for many years

933
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: to come, thereby disadvantaging all the poorer people black, white, brown,

934
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 1: you name it, who want to try to get going

935
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: in this industry because they can't get the capital, or

936
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: more alternatively, the Republicans take over and they either block

937
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: it or maybe just allow a very narrow version of

938
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: this thing to suite their own interests while getting a

939
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: political credit. I don't know. I mean, I read the

940
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 1: capital thing, and I don't know if the states themselves,

941
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: whether the state of California other can help address this

942
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: on their own. Maybe there's there's action, you know, happening

943
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: on that front, but what do you think. I think

944
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: that the reality is that black businesses have always and today,

945
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 1: even outside of a cannabis concept, have struggled getting access

946
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: to financial services. And so I don't see unless they're

947
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: specific provisions on on how and why access to banking

948
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: is going to provide specific benefit to minorities, folks who

949
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 1: participate in equity programs, etcetera. I don't have any expectation

950
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: that allowing everyone to have access to banking services is

951
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: actually going to result in black and brown communities being

952
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: lifted up in the ways that are being kind of

953
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: campaigned on today. I recognize that many of these entrepreneurs

954
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 1: would like to have access to banking services, but I

955
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: don't know that this legislation gets them what they actually

956
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 1: should be entitled. Tom I'm curious. I saw the basketball

957
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 1: player Al Harrington, who's very involved in the marijuana industry,

958
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 1: now being interviewed on a podcast hosted by another basketball player,

959
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: Steve Jackson, who is actually a guest on Psychoactive. He

960
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: raised this issue and he goes, I'm taking this into

961
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: my own hands. I am basically now getting ten licensees,

962
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: m providing them of the capitol. I think he said,

963
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,919
Speaker 1: they're all black, and this is my way of really

964
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: moving this thing forward. And I wonder about, especially being

965
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 1: in a Los Angeles where you know, there's a lot

966
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: of entertainment money, a lot of wealthy black entertainment money,

967
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: many of them getting involved in the industry from sports

968
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: or other types of entertainment. Are you seeing more of

969
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: an effort coming out of that part of the wealthy

970
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: black community in this area. Are they just kind of

971
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: doing their own thing, making their own investments and staying

972
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: on the sidelines from these broader issues of equity when

973
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 1: it comes to what the industry. I am saying, over time,

974
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: I have seen more black and brown folks involved in

975
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: direct investment and the cannabis industry and folks trying to

976
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 1: set up a structure similar to al Harrington's and going

977
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: after multiple licenses and trying to fund them. I think

978
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: that for some those those models could work. For for

979
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: others they may not work. What I can say as

980
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 1: a point of caution is that for for businesses who

981
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: are involved in investment, is just critically important to make

982
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: sure that you all have attorneys at the table, because

983
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: we want to make sure that even when black and

984
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: brown folks are the ones who are investing into these businesses,

985
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: that they're not doing so in a predatory way. Remember

986
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: some of the criticisms around min already set asides and

987
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 1: government contracts years back. And I never really study this deeply,

988
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: so I don't know how accurate this is, but there

989
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 1: was ofttimes the perception that you'd have people with money,

990
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: typically white people, white business and they see the opportunity

991
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: and what they would do is they would get a

992
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 1: person who is black and they say, okay, you get

993
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: a ten percent stake, you're the face, you get the title,

994
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: but effectively the fact that you'll work for us, And

995
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 1: I wonder is that happening again? In this area, or

996
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,959
Speaker 1: there's safeguards against that sort of thing, and how would

997
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: those safeguards work. So it's definitely happening in this area,

998
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: there has to be an intentional effort to build safeguards

999
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 1: to prevent against it, and when it occurs, to address it.

1000
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 1: That's just part of the reality. I can tell you

1001
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: that some programs put more infrastructure and in building those

1002
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 1: safeguards in place, and some programs don't have many safeguards

1003
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: in place at all. But what we've done here in

1004
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: the City of l A is that we require lots

1005
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 1: of disclosure from our applicants and owners and investors, and require,

1006
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: particularly when we're talking about folks who participate in our

1007
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: equity program, to demonstrate how the equity applicant owns UH centator, profits,

1008
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 1: voting control, ole, et cetera. Part of what we've done

1009
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: over the last two years is to create pro bono

1010
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: legal assistance program with the Los Angeles County Bar Association

1011
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: to try and provide support to folks as they're going

1012
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: through their business formation process and as they're signing all

1013
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: of these contracts. But I can tell you that without safeguards,

1014
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 1: without resources to help folks prevent against predatory practices in

1015
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 1: the Canada space. It is absolutely happening all over the place,

1016
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: and the resources need to come from the city or

1017
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: the state or both. And is there more of an effort.

1018
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: I remember one these were very proud of in Top

1019
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: sixty four was that we wrote in there a provision

1020
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 1: where a certain percentage of the tax revenue needed to

1021
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: go to support those communities that have been most victimized

1022
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 1: by the War on drugs. I can't remember what the

1023
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 1: percent was, but I think it's it's set up some

1024
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: sort of grants program. Has that played out fairly well?

1025
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 1: And is it continuing? And is any of that money

1026
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: going to help advance equity challenges in the marijuana industry.

1027
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: So the money that was set aside, specifically in Prop

1028
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 1: six before, it hasn't primarily gone to equity applicants seeking

1029
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 1: to participate in the cannabis industry. It went to other

1030
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: elements of community reinvestment, workforce development, but and it it

1031
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 1: went to things like substance abuse treatment in those communities,

1032
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: of building up community organizations in those communities. But the

1033
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 1: money that's gone to these equity programs has come from

1034
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: one or two places, either local and up until this point,

1035
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: local jurisdictions have led equity programs in the state of California.

1036
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 1: The State of California just recently, in their last year,

1037
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: created a position Deputy Director of Equity, which is led

1038
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: by Eugene Hillsman, and I know that he and his

1039
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 1: office and Nicole and her operations are leading that work.

1040
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: But at the local level where these programs are led,

1041
01:01:54,760 --> 01:02:00,439
Speaker 1: money is either coming from the local jurisdictions budget their

1042
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: general fund, or local jurisdictions are getting this money competitively

1043
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: through grants that have been administered at the state. Now,

1044
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: these grants that have come from the state are not

1045
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: a result of Proposition sixty four, but are the results

1046
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 1: of the California Cannabis Equity Act, which Senator Bradford Stephen

1047
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 1: Bradford lad in support with our office and other regulators,

1048
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: equity applicants across the state. Back in so since there

1049
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:31,919
Speaker 1: has been a bucket of money that local jurisdictions could

1050
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: apply for, but that those resources are simply not enough.

1051
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 1: We're talking about the entire state distributing thirty million dollars

1052
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: forty million dollars a city of Los Angeles, the largest market,

1053
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: walking away with one year eight million dollars, the next

1054
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 1: year two million dollars. And so that's the challenges that

1055
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: because there's not a dedicated source of funding, it's difficult

1056
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: to do this strategic planning and management of our programs

1057
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 1: because we're fighting for resources year to year as opposed

1058
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 1: to knowing what our economic outlook looks like at least

1059
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:08,160
Speaker 1: two three years from now. We've been successful, that's far

1060
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: at securing resources and getting them out the door. My

1061
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: department has distributed six million dollars over two hundred and

1062
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: five equity applicants just this past year. But all the

1063
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: money that we've got is already distributed, and so in

1064
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: order for us to do more, we need more. Let's

1065
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: take a break here and go to an ad. There's

1066
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 1: obviously what hundreds of people sitting in jobs like yours

1067
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 1: around the country now essentially in charge of the city

1068
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: or counties regulation of marijuana around around in the eighteen

1069
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 1: states that have legalized marijuana, and more than double that

1070
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 1: number who have legalized it for medical purposes. I'm sure

1071
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 1: you're in touch with some of them. I saw that

1072
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 1: you're part of a group called Canada's Regulators of Color Coalition,

1073
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: but obviously involved in the broader ones as well. And

1074
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: I'm thinking at this point you've been in the position

1075
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: for coming on four and a half years, you must

1076
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: be one of the senior members in the entire country

1077
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: now in terms of longevity in this position, And so

1078
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 1: I'm curious, what are those networks like, what are those

1079
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 1: relationships like, who you're learning a lot from? How much

1080
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: are people looking up to you at this point that

1081
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: you've been in this position so long? What is that

1082
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: world like? I've grown to appreciate civil servants and public

1083
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: servants public administrators in this space because they're doing a

1084
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 1: lot and getting hit with criticism from all sides. It's true, Ethan,

1085
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: most of my colleagues have come and gone at this

1086
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 1: point and transitioned into other roles, and I'm very excited

1087
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,479
Speaker 1: for all of them and the work that they're doing next.

1088
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,439
Speaker 1: But it has become a very kind of close knit

1089
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: community of regulators just because we fail, as though there

1090
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 1: are only so many people who know exactly all of

1091
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 1: the challenges and headaches, similar litigation, personnel issues. We're sharing

1092
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 1: or charts and budgets and how did you train your

1093
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 1: staff to do X, Y and z, And inevitably we're

1094
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 1: interacting and engaging with each other at industry conferences and

1095
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 1: and regulator specific conferences, and so there is a network

1096
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 1: of folks who are working collaboratively, trying to learn from

1097
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 1: one another, trying to improve our our local programs. I'm

1098
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: curious because I was delighted when you got this position.

1099
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 1: And then more recently, one of our other colleagues that

1100
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 1: Drug Policy Alliance, Chris Alexander, a young black man working

1101
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 1: in our New York office, got appointed by the new

1102
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 1: governor to head up New York States offers the cannabis regulation.

1103
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 1: If you two been in touch, yes, and he's got

1104
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 1: a task on his hand, Chris, I'm I'm here to

1105
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:02,440
Speaker 1: support you in any way that I can. Obviously, this

1106
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: is about regulating locally and helping people get licenses and

1107
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 1: set up a system that meets the state guidelines in

1108
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: that city guidelines. But on other issues, like on clearing

1109
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 1: people's criminal convictions for marijuana. I talked earlier today with

1110
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 1: Dale Garinger, who is a long time has been is

1111
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 1: still the long time ahead of California Normal the marijuana

1112
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: legalization group, and played a role in these initiatives. And

1113
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 1: I asked him and he says, he's focusing on now,

1114
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 1: is that you still have people all around California being

1115
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: drug tested for cannabis in order to get or keep

1116
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 1: their job, which even conclude nurses in the face of

1117
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 1: a nursing search shortage around COVID, where you have pain patients,

1118
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 1: people getting legitimately prescribed opioids who will be forced to

1119
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 1: get off the opioids if they use marijuana, even though

1120
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 1: there's evidence that those two drugs actually have a positive

1121
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: interaction in terms of pain management. So how much you

1122
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: getting involved in those other sorts of issues which are

1123
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 1: not about the business and licensing but more about broader

1124
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 1: mari juanna policy. So I I am always available and

1125
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: ready to stand with communities when there are these types

1126
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 1: of issues that are occurring, and so Dale, if you're listening,

1127
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: I'm down to connect and we can figure out how

1128
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 1: to organize together on this. The reality is that even

1129
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,040
Speaker 1: though the code that I administered that I'm primarily responsible for,

1130
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 1: does relate to the business and licensing of the cannabis industry,

1131
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: my role is and I see my role and responsibility

1132
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 1: is much larger than that. My part of my responsibility

1133
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 1: is to advise the City of Los Angeles on their

1134
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 1: cannabis laws and programs and the impacts that cannabis laws

1135
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 1: and programs have on our residents and visitors. And this

1136
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 1: is a reality that folks are continuing to be impacted

1137
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 1: by pre impost employment drug testing, and it seems crazy

1138
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 1: that this is still the case here in California. I

1139
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 1: know other jurisdictions still have these provisions as well, but

1140
01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 1: I feel as though you had made a comment earlier,

1141
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 1: Ethan about how the consequence of California being the first

1142
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 1: to have medical cannabis back in nine and then taking

1143
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 1: twenty years to kind of catch up with its regulatory program.

1144
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 1: My concern, and this is what we actively a fight against,

1145
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 1: is that even with our legalization effort, we will be

1146
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 1: the first, but then slow to catch up after the fact.

1147
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 1: That's part of the reason why I think that there

1148
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 1: there has to be the work done now to map

1149
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:36,800
Speaker 1: out all of these different lingering issues and effects of

1150
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: the War on Drugs, of cannabis prohibition, and some of

1151
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:44,719
Speaker 1: the negative consequences of our regulatory efforts to date. Because

1152
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,679
Speaker 1: there are so many decisions, Because there are so many pieces,

1153
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:52,680
Speaker 1: I think it's difficult or it's easy sometimes to not

1154
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:55,639
Speaker 1: be able to prioritize all of them. But the reality

1155
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:59,760
Speaker 1: is that the consequence of these lingering consequences and for

1156
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:03,559
Speaker 1: visions are are ridiculous. And listen, if the Feds somehow

1157
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 1: land up legalizing cannabis at the federal level, does that

1158
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: fundamentally change the nature and challenges of your job? For

1159
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,679
Speaker 1: the change is bigger at the state level. I think

1160
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 1: that it will definitely change what things look like in

1161
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,679
Speaker 1: the city of Los Angeles, just because we are such

1162
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 1: a large market. But our job is to help this

1163
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 1: industry navigate through the challenges of the day and the

1164
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 1: reality and that's part of what our equity program seems

1165
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 1: to do as well. And the reality is that when

1166
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 1: federal legalization happens, there will be a whole host of

1167
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 1: new challenges that states and local jurisdictions will need to

1168
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 1: figure out. How do we continue to protect our markets

1169
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:44,759
Speaker 1: many businesses, and I think markets are going to collapse

1170
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 1: after federal legalization if there isn't intentional provisions put in

1171
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 1: place to protect them. And so I think that it

1172
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:55,720
Speaker 1: will be a new iteration of different challenges that we

1173
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 1: hope navigate folks through. I'm hoping what this means is

1174
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 1: that our equity efforts become a little bit easier and

1175
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 1: that we can rely on existing federal, state, local infrastructure

1176
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 1: to provide business programming. That's the reality with our our

1177
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 1: equity programs right now, even is that we're starting from scratch,

1178
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 1: reinventing the whale with business programming for the cannabis industry

1179
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 1: because the cannabis industry, for legal reasons, can't have access

1180
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 1: to the already existing infrastructure that provides every other industry

1181
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 1: business support in this country. So once we're able to

1182
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 1: connect our industry to these existing resources, I think that

1183
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:40,720
Speaker 1: will free up some of our capacity to work on

1184
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: more challenging issues. Okay, so the last quick questions here. First,

1185
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: when you look back over these last foreign off years

1186
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: in a job, what would you rate as your biggest

1187
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 1: disappointment in these foreign half years and what would you

1188
01:10:55,160 --> 01:11:00,719
Speaker 1: write as your biggest success. So I think my biggest

1189
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:08,600
Speaker 1: disappointment would be just the disparities that exist today. I

1190
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 1: think I I assume that this would happen much sooner,

1191
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,280
Speaker 1: that some of these reforms, some of these efforts would

1192
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:18,439
Speaker 1: happen much much sooner. I didn't learning how long it

1193
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:22,200
Speaker 1: took to go through a budget process to secure resources,

1194
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: to get council members lined up to take a vote

1195
01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 1: to actually implement these pieces. It's taken so much longer,

1196
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:33,360
Speaker 1: and again that time has been money for applicants, and

1197
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:36,519
Speaker 1: that that's that's been a pain point for many of

1198
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 1: our operators. I'd say another disappointment, which is because I'm

1199
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: thinking about another one, is just the disappointed with some

1200
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: of our elected officials who have kept cannabis at an

1201
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 1: arms length and that local city council or elsewhere. I'm

1202
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:57,639
Speaker 1: specifically talking about the local city council, but elsewhere. Also,

1203
01:11:57,760 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: I'll use this as an opportunity to call out all

1204
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:03,799
Speaker 1: of the other elected officials everywhere else who keep cannabis

1205
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 1: at an arm's length because they don't see it as

1206
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 1: their issue or affecting their constituents, or amongst a host

1207
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 1: of other priorities. It just doesn't rise to the level

1208
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 1: of prioritization. Cannabi's policy is one of those hult policy

1209
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:24,680
Speaker 1: areas that has long been in need of reform and attention,

1210
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 1: and I feel as though, at least at the local level,

1211
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 1: it's often felt as though when when folks first legalized

1212
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: in first passed their first ordinance, they wanted to pat

1213
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:36,920
Speaker 1: themselves on the back and say we did it, and

1214
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 1: in reality, there were and there are so many decisions

1215
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 1: that still need to be made and issues that need

1216
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 1: to be work through. I think what I will count

1217
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:55,280
Speaker 1: as the success is the movement that we've generated that

1218
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: I've been able to contribute to around the country that

1219
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 1: has led to an environment where it's difficult to try

1220
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:07,559
Speaker 1: and move cannabis policy orform without the inclusion of equity.

1221
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 1: It is the I'll count as my success the rally

1222
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 1: that's happening at the state Capitol, that just recently happened

1223
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 1: at the state Capitol, just because there it's a lot

1224
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 1: of infrastructure and organizing that went into just making sure

1225
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:28,320
Speaker 1: that there was a platform and something for folks to

1226
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 1: react to in this space. But we have so much

1227
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 1: more work to do, and we've got to think more

1228
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:38,719
Speaker 1: strategically about how we help each other in the work. Yeah,

1229
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 1: it's kind of a semi requisite question on psychoactive and

1230
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 1: giving that you're in a public position, you can only

1231
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 1: say so much. But on this one, so do you

1232
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 1: enjoy cannabis? Is it part of your life? Cannabis? It

1233
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 1: is a part of my life. It has been for

1234
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:59,400
Speaker 1: several years. I'm a cannabis consumer of been open about

1235
01:13:59,479 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 1: that since so I started this position. I've also told

1236
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:06,200
Speaker 1: folks that it's uh, none of their business how much

1237
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:10,040
Speaker 1: I consumer or what I'm consuming. But I think it's

1238
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 1: important for folks to be comfortable talking about their cannabis use,

1239
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:20,520
Speaker 1: and so I've made an intentional effort to be strategic

1240
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 1: about that communication, but also unashamed and unapologetic about it

1241
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:29,640
Speaker 1: as well. So Ken, I'm so gratefully you're taking the

1242
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:32,080
Speaker 1: time to do this. I'm so incredibly proud of you

1243
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 1: for not just the job you did when you were

1244
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 1: working with me at d p A, but these foreign

1245
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:38,360
Speaker 1: half years you've spent trying to make, you know, some

1246
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,519
Speaker 1: real sense in order and responsibility in the way that

1247
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:46,639
Speaker 1: Los Angeles deals with marijuana marijuana regulations. So more power

1248
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 1: to you, and I wish you all the best, Ethan.

1249
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:53,600
Speaker 1: Thank you. I look forward to continuing to coordinate and

1250
01:14:54,000 --> 01:15:00,640
Speaker 1: support your efforts as well. We've love to hear from

1251
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 1: our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories,

1252
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 1: comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one

1253
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:12,439
Speaker 1: eight three three seven seven nine sixty. That's eight three

1254
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 1: three Psycho zero or you can email us at Psychoactive

1255
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com or find me on Twitter at

1256
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 1: Ethan Naedalman. You can also find contact information in our

1257
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:27,679
Speaker 1: show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio

1258
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 1: and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's

1259
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 1: produced by noa'm osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers

1260
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:40,280
Speaker 1: are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovsky

1261
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 1: from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My

1262
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by

1263
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 1: Ari Blucien and a special thanks to a Brio s

1264
01:15:51,280 --> 01:16:05,640
Speaker 1: f Bianca Grimshaw and Robert bb. Next week I'll be

1265
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:09,640
Speaker 1: talking with Paul Stamit's one of the world's leading my colleges,

1266
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 1: who explains my mushrooms can be magical, whether they're psychedelic

1267
01:16:14,439 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 1: or not. When you look at the scalability of the

1268
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:21,559
Speaker 1: fermentation in future technology, the ability of you being able

1269
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 1: to generate enough mysilium to replace leather, to replace meat,

1270
01:16:26,720 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 1: to be able to help ecosystems breakdown toxins, to be

1271
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:34,800
Speaker 1: able to grow enough sulcybin mushrooms to expand consciousness and

1272
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,599
Speaker 1: I think saul cybin it will lead to humans becoming

1273
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:41,840
Speaker 1: a new species. We are not the Homo sapiens of

1274
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: the past several hundred thousand years. Subscribe to Psychoactive now

1275
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:46,680
Speaker 1: see it, don't miss it.