Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 1: These are our stories.
Speaker 3: Done done.
Speaker 1: Hi, Hi, Hi, Welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Kara Klank and I'm Liza Traeger. This is a
Speaker 2: podcast where we talk SVU, true crime and talk to celebrities.
Speaker 4: So thrilling and up top, we catch up. We catch up.
Speaker 1: Yes, we're as always were in the time machine. So
Speaker 1: we will be just returning from a glorious whirlwind tour
Speaker 1: of the Northeast. Thank you to everybody who came out.
Speaker 1: We loved seeing all of you.
Speaker 2: Well, So, a few weeks ago, I was talking about
Speaker 2: two different things that I thought was one thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I was talking about a crime in Japan, and
Speaker 2: I said that the documentary The Serpent was about it.
Speaker 4: The Serpent's about something else.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, it's about a man killing tourists.
Speaker 4: So shit, So it's something different.
Speaker 2: And I don't know why my brain put them together
Speaker 2: into one one thing.
Speaker 4: So I just wanted to.
Speaker 1: Shit smarter any which way you sliceaid. I'm sure that's
Speaker 1: what happened. Yeah, So well, I want to hear from
Speaker 1: you because you went to go see the movie that's
Speaker 1: swooping the Nation M Threegan, uh, Megan, And I thought
Speaker 1: it was gonna be I told you this, but I
Speaker 1: thought it was going to be like I thought it
Speaker 1: was a rated R Chucky, like there would be like
Speaker 1: a little doll spilling blood everywhere. But I think it
Speaker 1: was just more like a campy, fun horror movie because
Speaker 1: it's PG thirteen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but Chucky also is not scary like it is.
Speaker 1: When you're a kid and he fucking murders people with
Speaker 1: like blood and knives like it's all raided.
Speaker 4: There's blood and knives, well a machete in this one.
Speaker 1: Oh really, is there a lot of blood?
Speaker 2: There's an okay amount of blood, I mean whatever, whatever
Speaker 2: amount of blood's allowed for a PG thirteen, But it's yeah, bloodless,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Right, there's ripped off body parts.
Speaker 1: I saw and I saw a marketing thing they did
Speaker 1: on Instagram where they just had like fifteen girls dressed
Speaker 1: as Megan dancing on the deck of the Empire State
Speaker 1: Building and doing her weird like like googly dance that
Speaker 1: she does well.
Speaker 2: You know what I learned, Megan is girls. It was
Speaker 2: an actress. They filmed that with real girls wearing masks. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there are real dances. So yesterday a few friends were
Speaker 2: showing me just like the making of and it's.
Speaker 4: They're real girls.
Speaker 2: That's why it's like so fucking cool. On top of it,
Speaker 2: it's like Nazgi. I just love that they didn't take
Speaker 2: themselves too seriously.
Speaker 4: It's silly. It's funny.
Speaker 2: Everyone is so pretentious, like I feel, you know, they're
Speaker 2: like Babylon.
Speaker 4: We don't care, we don't I don't need Babylon.
Speaker 2: I didn't even know Babylon was a thing until I
Speaker 2: got to the movies and saw posters. But that's supposed
Speaker 2: to be the big thing. No one cares. We want
Speaker 2: little robots.
Speaker 4: That's well.
Speaker 1: I bombed at the box office, but it might do well.
Speaker 1: It gets nominated for stuff. It's three hours long. You
Speaker 1: know what I think everyone, I'm just gonna say it
Speaker 1: as everyone is a little bit tired about movies about
Speaker 1: the magic of Hollywood, like the Fableman. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: always the ones that win. The ones that win are
Speaker 1: always like jerk Off Circle jerk picks about the magic
Speaker 1: of cinema and it's like, okay, we all like movies. Whatever.
Speaker 1: I don't know that's the problem. Give them, give them
Speaker 1: three gin the fucking Oscar and then we'll talk. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I just love Alison Williams finding this like horror,
Speaker 2: no emotion, niche for herself in her life.
Speaker 4: Like I'm just really proud of her.
Speaker 1: Have I said on your podcast before that I wow
Speaker 1: a babysit for her.
Speaker 4: Yes, but you could say it again.
Speaker 1: It's huge. Okay, No, I haven't seen her in years,
Speaker 1: but my friends at MTV interviewer on a red carpet
Speaker 1: for like get Out or something, and they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: we work with your old babysitter, Charc like, and she
Speaker 1: goes she was there when it all started because I
Speaker 1: used to do I used to do Disney sing along
Speaker 1: songs with her. We used to like sing and like
Speaker 1: dance around to Disney. But then I let them watch
Speaker 1: Run and Stimpy one time and told her not to
Speaker 1: tell her mom because her mama told me no Nickelodeon
Speaker 1: and she told, yeah, you can't trust kids, and she's like,
Speaker 1: you know, I can't. You know, I'm gonna tell my parents, right, babe,
Speaker 1: like from get out No.
Speaker 2: I loved those Disney singalongs because like the little Mickey
Speaker 2: Mouse would bounce.
Speaker 1: Towards I loved those totally. We would do it in class.
Speaker 1: I just like her and her NEPO baby like comment
Speaker 1: was perfect.
Speaker 2: Like she's what did she say? She just goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not that big of a deal. You could just
Speaker 2: admit it and know that you had a leg up.
Speaker 2: But still, you know, do good work and nothing matters
Speaker 2: and eventually people won't care.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like the most basic great thing.
Speaker 2: Because Jamie Lee Curtis had a quote like that too,
Speaker 2: and then she came out with a wild one like
Speaker 2: they like she was like, we deserve the right to exist,
Speaker 2: and it's like okay, Like they're just their worlds are
Speaker 2: too small. I just feel like Kate Moss's sister being
Speaker 2: like it had nothing to do with me being Kate
Speaker 2: Moss's sister.
Speaker 4: It's like, are you out of your mind?
Speaker 1: Like I just I don't.
Speaker 2: Brook Smith, our former guest the Woman in the Well
Speaker 2: from Silence to the Lambs, one of the best Nappo
Speaker 2: babies able to talk about it, admits it doesn't care,
Speaker 2: like what's so bad? What's so bad? I don't get it.
Speaker 2: Your mom's Zuma Thurman. Just say it help getting a
Speaker 2: Quentin Tarantino audition.
Speaker 1: Yes, she's like my mom being Uma Thurman had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with me being cast in that movie, and
Speaker 1: it's like, what what are you talking about?
Speaker 4: She's a muse.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but right, Alison Williams is amazing and
Speaker 1: Brian Jordan Alvarez is in Meghan Me I'm three again.
Speaker 4: I can't even say it like you and Ronnie Chang.
Speaker 4: So that was like fun too to see some familiar faces.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I loved it.
Speaker 1: I love I don't know are personally. Does he do
Speaker 1: stand up? No?
Speaker 4: I think we might be just internet friends.
Speaker 1: But yeah, and I think he's like a sketchy character guy, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: sketchy sketch comedy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he does like front facing really funny characters like
Speaker 2: I following, Like I'm in a Southern waitress on your
Speaker 2: first day of work and it's her like training you,
Speaker 2: but she's like, You're not supposed to do this, but
Speaker 2: I always do.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One of the best undercover bosses is retro fitness.
Speaker 4: Have you ever seen that? No, there's like a.
Speaker 2: Woman ah Jack Jacqueline, and she is so disrespectful. She
Speaker 2: legit like tells client like customers at the gym, like
Speaker 2: go fuck yourself, and like the boss like the owners
Speaker 2: trying to and she goes, I don't give a shit.
Speaker 2: I just told you what to do, Just do it.
Speaker 2: And then she obviously gets fired. In the end, she's
Speaker 2: wearing a diamond cross, just swearing at the TV like
Speaker 2: soapiss it's the best go find undercover boss with our
Speaker 2: queen Jacqueline retro fitness so good. Yeah, well, also, yeah,
Speaker 2: did you watch Golden Globes at all?
Speaker 1: I checked out the winners. I looked at a couple
Speaker 1: of speeches. I saw Jennifer Coolidge is like hilarious, like
Speaker 1: very touching speech to Mike White, and then I just
Speaker 1: this morning saw a red carpet with her where they
Speaker 1: were like, are there any part roles that you want
Speaker 1: to play next? And she goes, I've always wanted to
Speaker 1: play a dolphin. It's oh, what are you talking about?
Speaker 4: She's so funny.
Speaker 2: And I love when Mike White one he went, well,
Speaker 2: you all passed on this, so this makes it even
Speaker 2: better and he was like oh to the actors, he goes,
Speaker 2: you all passed and don't pretend you didn't. You all
Speaker 2: passed and it makes this moment even sweeter. Something like that.
Speaker 2: I only watch it. I just you know, I don't
Speaker 2: have Twitter anymore, but I'll go look at the trending topics.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm super early. I feel like a word season
Speaker 1: doesn't usually get going into like feb And it's like January,
Speaker 1: like ten No Golden Globes. Always January, okay, always January,
Speaker 1: super February. I did also like that Ryan Murphy let MJ.
Speaker 1: Rodriguez take a moment as the first transactress to ever
Speaker 1: win last year she won in the non televised and
Speaker 1: so he like let her get up and like, you know,
Speaker 1: take a bow and that was really sweet. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so I saw a couple of clips, but I didn't
Speaker 1: watch the show, which is weird. I'm a I'm an
Speaker 1: award show person. I think I've just they started to
Speaker 1: really bore me these like days.
Speaker 2: Well, I think once you see how the sausage is made,
Speaker 2: it's like not as cool either. Like I grew up
Speaker 2: with my family, awards shows were everything my dad.
Speaker 4: I mean, my dad would let us get.
Speaker 2: Pizza and we would watch and then we'd get the
Speaker 2: magazines of all the best dress during the week, like right,
Speaker 2: we loved it. But now you know, it's like a
Speaker 2: pr circuit, Like it's just the Golden Globe started because
Speaker 2: the press.
Speaker 1: Celebrities were talking to the press. Did you tell me this?
Speaker 1: I know you told me this, you told I'm the
Speaker 1: pot or no, no, I don't think so the Golden
Speaker 1: Globes is just like the foreign press and no one
Speaker 1: talked to the press, and they're like, well, no one
Speaker 1: loves awards more than celebrities, so they created this award
Speaker 1: show just to get interview exclusives with celebrities.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like all kind of based on stuff.
Speaker 2: But what I really want to talk about someone who
Speaker 2: didn't watch the whole thing, just Twitter, Internet, some BuzzFeed
Speaker 2: clips Gerrod Carmichael, it's like you haven't seen anything about it.
Speaker 1: Just the Shelley thing.
Speaker 4: He I don't get it, Like I don't get why
Speaker 4: he did it.
Speaker 2: It wasn't funny and it was basically like I just
Speaker 2: hate people that are like, well, I didn't even try,
Speaker 2: so it doesn't even matter. I just hate cynicism. I
Speaker 2: hate people that don't try. And it's like you can
Speaker 2: make points and be funny, like it was Ricky Gervais's
Speaker 2: scathingness with not a joke insight.
Speaker 1: But the mention of Shelley miscaviage. Did that bother you?
Speaker 1: Because I thought that was kind of like, oh, damn,
Speaker 1: at least somebody's talking about it.
Speaker 2: Oh, it didn't bother me. It was just towards them.
Speaker 2: And it was right before like Tom Cruise people came.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, people were like talking, like people.
Speaker 4: Weren't listening to him.
Speaker 2: He had to spend most of the time going, why
Speaker 2: do I have to keep telling you guys to shut up?
Speaker 2: Shut up, stop talking because people stopped listening to him
Speaker 2: because he.
Speaker 1: Was just not caring at all, like playing it like
Speaker 1: anti comedy.
Speaker 2: Well it was anti comedy, and he wanted to make
Speaker 2: points of like this is racist as fuck.
Speaker 4: I hate this, I hate all of this. Hollywood is bullshit.
Speaker 2: I don't give a shit about any of you, like
Speaker 2: very and so people were just talking and the Shelley
Speaker 2: bar everyone just went like, oh, I know, I loved that,
Speaker 2: but it just I don't get him. I don't get it.
Speaker 2: I never have gotten it. I don't get it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, when I meet him, he's nice, but like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's so lovely to me. The first time I met him,
Speaker 1: He's like, when you come to LA, I'll help you
Speaker 1: get on shows. And then he did, he like emailed
Speaker 1: people for me to get on shows, like he's always
Speaker 1: been so nice. But yeah, I haven't talked to him
Speaker 1: in a while, and I don't I haven't seen a
Speaker 1: lot of the new stuff, like the specials and the whatever.
Speaker 2: I just feel like, I like, obviously awards are stupid,
Speaker 2: but they mean a lot to people, Like a lot
Speaker 2: of people work decades, like Mike Whites and Tears, like
Speaker 2: things mean a lot to people, like it takes a
Speaker 2: lot of work to be able to be there, and like.
Speaker 1: And nobody wants you to be too cool at anything,
Speaker 1: like that's it. Yeah, don't be at a don't be
Speaker 1: like speaking at an insurance conference and be like I'm
Speaker 1: too cool to be here, Like then, don't be speaking
Speaker 1: like I mean, don't be too cool. And then I
Speaker 1: went on Twitter for anyone to be like he would
Speaker 1: you guys, you know, and all the people that did
Speaker 1: like him were like, the jokes are supposed to.
Speaker 4: Be not funny. You just don't get it.
Speaker 2: And it's like, I actually do get it and anti
Speaker 2: I don't like anti comedy people. Andy Kaufman. I've never
Speaker 2: seen a piece of it. I don't give a shit,
Speaker 2: Like it's not for me, but I don't know. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna watch the full. I'm gonna watch more and more
Speaker 2: just to like make sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're making me want to watch it now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to.
Speaker 4: Check it out.
Speaker 2: We should watch it together because I want to see
Speaker 2: if I still think what I'm thinking while seeing all
Speaker 2: of it. But it was just like that's why I
Speaker 2: hated the Kathy Hilton putting lipgloss on. I don't like
Speaker 2: anyone taking away from people like doing things that really
Speaker 2: do matter, and I don't.
Speaker 4: I think it's cool to care and that's that.
Speaker 2: But he got paid half a million, and I can't
Speaker 2: believe they let him do it, Like I really, did
Speaker 2: he have writers?
Speaker 1: I wonder, like I'm sure did they know what he
Speaker 1: was doing? Like maybe not? Because I heard that he
Speaker 1: likes to rewrite a lot of things, Like I think
Speaker 1: he likes to have his own hand on the steering wheel,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like I don't he maybe
Speaker 1: had writers, but I think he had final say on
Speaker 1: everything that he said. For judging from what I've known
Speaker 1: about what I've heard about him.
Speaker 2: I just feel like you can be a badass and
Speaker 2: say all the fuck's up shit and still be funny,
Speaker 2: like the I just don't get why you want to
Speaker 2: not be funny. But he also was first comedy special
Speaker 2: he had. He brought notes up and doesn't care.
Speaker 1: He doesn't care, and it's just like so rewarded in
Speaker 1: every way, and I don't I don't know.
Speaker 4: It's just something I don't understand at all.
Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of like I have a friend in
Speaker 1: comedy who, like, he books a million commercials. He books
Speaker 1: so many commercials, and he goes into the attitude at
Speaker 1: every commercial like I don't give a fuck if I
Speaker 1: get this, and he gets it all the time. It's
Speaker 1: like it is rewarded in this business. Like they'll be
Speaker 1: like will you shave? And he'll be like nope, and
Speaker 1: he'll get it, you know what I mean. Like they'll
Speaker 1: they'll just be like, you know, other people are going
Speaker 1: into commercial auditions being like, hey, babe, how are your kids?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's so great to see you. Okay,
Speaker 1: do you want me to overhear? Like, and he just
Speaker 1: goes in and is like, when is this fucking over?
Speaker 1: Are we done yet? Like and gets it books it
Speaker 1: every time, So it's wild, you know it is wild.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm curious how everyone felt about it or if he
Speaker 2: had fun at the parties, Like I wonder.
Speaker 1: If he had fun. It's just like I it's just
Speaker 1: confusing to me.
Speaker 2: But if he really pulled one on them, I guess
Speaker 2: that's a cool prank getting paid a lot. And then
Speaker 2: the Golden Globes switeted like that was amazing, thank you
Speaker 2: for your incredible work. And then all the comments are like, what,
Speaker 2: like are you talking about?
Speaker 1: I love how you're just signing into like member sign in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're just like logging on too, no sign in Twitter,
Speaker 1: just checking out the free public Twitter feed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just do it for like White Lotus.
Speaker 1: I did it.
Speaker 4: I loved seeing the White Lotus.
Speaker 1: It's the only place where people are having conversations about
Speaker 1: stuff still. Unfortunately, because I didn't even know the Golden
Speaker 1: Globes were happening, I was on the phone with our
Speaker 1: friend and I saw something. I go, wait the Golden
Speaker 1: Globes today. It was I saw like people that we
Speaker 1: both follow, like Meg's Stalter. So I saw her on
Speaker 1: the red carpet and was like, oh, that's today, Like
Speaker 1: I truly didn't know.
Speaker 2: Well, I thought it was because of Twitter, but I
Speaker 2: guess not. I thought it was because I don't have Twitter.
Speaker 2: I'm out of the loop. But you're you have it
Speaker 2: and you're out of the Oh. No, I was totally out.
Speaker 2: Was totally out.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I go on my own Twitter for
Speaker 1: like a little bit sometimes in the morning, and then
Speaker 1: I go on the that's messed up Twitter, which is
Speaker 1: all just like releasey fanfic and like rammed shit. You know.
Speaker 2: No, I also didn't know it's on a Monday, like
Speaker 2: that felt weird or Tuesday whenever. What I thought it
Speaker 2: was a Sunday thing. I thought, yeah, Sunday I usually is.
Speaker 2: You're right, I was obbious about that.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, I have an episode of my podcast that you
Speaker 1: know I've been telling you about NonStop called The Town,
Speaker 1: which is like an industry podcast about Hollywood, which I
Speaker 1: think non industry and industry people both listen to. But
Speaker 1: there is an episode waiting on my phone that's like,
Speaker 1: why are we losing award shows? Like why are people
Speaker 1: just so totally dropping award shows. So I'm interested to
Speaker 1: listen to what.
Speaker 2: He Oh, I'll do theories, and then once you listen,
Speaker 2: you can like te tell me the truth.
Speaker 4: Well, I think the Internet ruined everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you could just see the best speeches, you
Speaker 2: could see who won. You don't have to watch. There's
Speaker 2: no surprise, there's no excitement. Also, people aren't going to
Speaker 2: the movies. We also are all watching such different things exactly.
Speaker 2: Everything's very yeah except White Lotus.
Speaker 1: I think that really after the Nation, but and I
Speaker 1: love that Jeremy Allen White one.
Speaker 4: I didn't watch The Bear yet, but I do like him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I really loved everything everywhere all at once.
Speaker 1: So I'm happy Michelle Yo is getting like all the
Speaker 1: props that she's getting for that movie. I feel like
Speaker 1: she's gonna win the Oscar too. Well the Guy one
Speaker 1: too Oh yeah he did too.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess see I I googled him. I
Speaker 2: guess he was like he acted in the eighties as
Speaker 2: a kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's from Goonies or no, it's another big eighties.
Speaker 2: It's Goonies, Goonies and Harrison Ford Indiana Jones.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then he like dropped off forever, and he's
Speaker 1: so have you seen it not yet?
Speaker 2: Because I see it in the movies and it's on
Speaker 2: Delta flights, but usually Delta's for fun, Like, I don't know.
Speaker 2: When I'm in the air, I don't want to watch
Speaker 2: this incredible film, you.
Speaker 1: Know what I mean? And you and it's not the
Speaker 1: kind of movie where you want to like doze off
Speaker 1: for a few minutes and then pick it back up,
Speaker 1: like yeah, you got to really focus on it.
Speaker 2: So I have a flight where I'm in first class
Speaker 2: lay down and it's in the afternoon. I'm flying from
Speaker 2: like one to nine pm, Like it's chill, So maybe
Speaker 2: that's where I'll finally watch it with like my meal.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that'll be chill. That will be nice to
Speaker 1: like cozy up and watch a movie. I am number
Speaker 1: five on the list for an upgrade tomorrow and there
Speaker 1: are nine seats for tonight and I'm excited. Okay, I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's going to happen, but I was
Speaker 1: like looking this morning, it was like ooh la la, okay,
Speaker 1: let's get started with our episode today. We don't really
Speaker 1: have a ton of tour dates coming up because we
Speaker 1: just wrapped our big fall winter tour. But we will
Speaker 1: be in Vancouver at the JFL Vancouver uh Festival, which
Speaker 1: is awesome. We'll be there on February twentieth, so get
Speaker 1: tickets for that. Those are available at That's messed up
Speaker 1: live dot com. And I believe we'll be announcing a
Speaker 1: few more dates soon.
Speaker 2: And watch the Instagram. Yeah, I'll do like a YouTube thing. Subscribe, No,
Speaker 2: subscribe to any subscribe and yeah, oh but give us
Speaker 2: some give us some nice reviews and some stars if
Speaker 2: it feels good. The Taylor Swift camp fans really made it,
Speaker 2: did a debt. They made a and it bothers me.
Speaker 1: But you know what, somebody told me. Somebody told me that, like,
Speaker 1: it's just the number of reviews that you get, Like,
Speaker 1: even if they're bad, it's still that they told you
Speaker 1: a number of reviews. No, I feel like it was
Speaker 1: Hannah or somebody. So they were like, yes, your bad
Speaker 1: reviews are good.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's like, fuck you all the people that give
Speaker 1: us one star reviews, jokes on you. All Right, let's
Speaker 1: get started. So we are doing Abomination season five, episode eight,
Speaker 1: taking it back to two thousand and three, and we
Speaker 1: open on a lady in a crossing guard vest and
Speaker 1: she's corralling a bunch of children across the street and
Speaker 1: she's like talking to them in kid talk. She's like,
Speaker 1: let's stop, look and listen when we cross the street.
Speaker 4: Whatever.
Speaker 1: But then as the kids go under.
Speaker 2: Her breast as much of a trope as like jogging
Speaker 2: through the park. I feel like there's been a crossing
Speaker 2: guard with young children in like ten episodes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a thing.
Speaker 2: It's always like we're gonna be safe, and then it's
Speaker 2: like a dead body or a van snatches a child,
Speaker 2: like this does happen. Yeah, maybe we could be crossing guards.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's where we're going off, begging for casting. Maybe
Speaker 2: we would make great crossing guards that are kind of fighting.
Speaker 1: Wow, this is my corner, you know, this is the
Speaker 1: street I walk the kids on. And then you're like,
Speaker 1: I've been here for ten years. Okay, yeah that could
Speaker 1: be us. But this lady's like all nice with the kids,
Speaker 1: and then under her breath goes, I hope a cab
Speaker 1: doesn't splatter you all over midtown, you little brats. And
Speaker 1: it's so funny to me. She hates her job and
Speaker 1: she sees something and I can't tell. She like works
Speaker 1: for the school and as a crossing guard, just wearing
Speaker 1: a crossing guard vest. But anyway, she sees something and
Speaker 1: suddenly we see her eyes widen, her whole face changes,
Speaker 1: and she yells to her coworker get the kids inside.
Speaker 1: We pan around what she's seeing and it's like an
Speaker 1: arm poking out from under a blanket, and it's very
Speaker 1: likely attached to a dead ass body. And finally there's
Speaker 1: a little bit of excitement in this bitter crossing guard's day,
Speaker 1: so I'm happy for her. And then Benson and Stabler
Speaker 1: are on the scene with a UNI breaking it down,
Speaker 1: and the guy's like white male twenties naked, wrapped in
Speaker 1: queen size sheets, the condoms in there with him and
Speaker 1: fluids on the body, so of course they called the
Speaker 1: sex police. His neck is broken, his scalp is torn up,
Speaker 1: and there's like a white powder in it, and there's
Speaker 1: blue stuff on the sheets, like a melted plastic, like
Speaker 1: melted nylon, and a building super found a pillowcase in
Speaker 1: the bushes that matches the sheets. I don't know really
Speaker 1: where that ends up, but inside are the guy's clothes,
Speaker 1: no wallet, so a piece of paper is the only
Speaker 1: thing on him with anything identifying on it, and it
Speaker 1: says seventh and Bleaker, Thursday, seven pm. The uniform guy
Speaker 1: is like, well, she must have shown him a real
Speaker 1: good time before she killed him, and Stabler's like, dude,
Speaker 1: number one lesson at SPU school, an erection is a
Speaker 1: side effect of asphyxiation. And the cop goes, oh, because
Speaker 1: I was gonna say he was scared stiff, and Stabler
Speaker 1: wins is at the middle school joke, and then we
Speaker 1: dive into the credits, so I guess this dead body
Speaker 1: had a boner anyway. So top of act one, Stabler's
Speaker 1: complaining about how many doors they'll have to potentially knock
Speaker 1: on because you know, the corner of seventh and Bleaker
Speaker 1: is poppin', and Finn comments also, if the guy was
Speaker 1: killed there in the village, that's one hundred blocks from
Speaker 1: where the body was found, it's a long way to
Speaker 1: lug a body. One of them must live near the
Speaker 1: dump site or she had help moving the body. And
Speaker 1: I love this like heteronormative narrative, Like they find a
Speaker 1: naked man with a condom on and they're like, a
Speaker 1: woman killed him. A woman killed him in the middle
Speaker 1: of sex, like could not have been a man. Being
Speaker 1: gay does not exist in twenty two thousand and three
Speaker 1: or anything, so there's no hit on the prints from
Speaker 1: the sky. And then enter our csu Queen Judy Ciper,
Speaker 1: and she goes, this was challenging, and you know it
Speaker 1: must have been a challenge if it was challenging for her,
Speaker 1: because she's figured out a lot of shit before. And
Speaker 1: she goes, I found gypsu particles in his hair and
Speaker 1: flakes flat late Tis paint in eggshell white, so it
Speaker 1: looks like his head was bashed against a wall. That's
Speaker 1: what the white stuff was. And the bed sheets are
Speaker 1: more interesting. She says, they put that blue substance under
Speaker 1: infrared spectrometer. It's nylon, like what sports apparel is made
Speaker 1: out of, and it was melted onto the sheets and
Speaker 1: they're like, maybe from a faulty dryer, and Finn's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I've fucked up a lot of laundry and have eggshell
Speaker 1: white walls, so maybe this is my building. And they're
Speaker 1: like and June's is like, yeah, but I don't think
Speaker 1: you killed this guy. And they found two blood types
Speaker 1: in the seamen that were in the sheets, so your
Speaker 1: victim spent his last night with another man a scan
Speaker 1: I wrote Scandal. It's two thousand and three. So Kragan's like,
Speaker 1: go out and check the gay bars, and they're at
Speaker 1: Now they're at a gay bar and like probably near
Speaker 1: seventh than Bleaker, and Hugo is there. Oh no, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: it's called Hugos. I love to call this guy Hugo.
Speaker 1: He's just like a haughty unloading beers. He said he
Speaker 1: worked till four am, but after ten he doesn't really
Speaker 1: remember much. One of the perks of working at a
Speaker 1: gay bars that you never have to buy your own drinks.
Speaker 1: That's what he says. So he calls over the bouncer
Speaker 1: and the bouncer's got like a thick New York accident.
Speaker 1: He's like, never seen him here, but I know that face,
Speaker 1: and he's like he's a model or something like the
Speaker 1: posters that they plaster a construction sites. So now, Benson,
Speaker 1: it's stable or just go out to a nearby construction
Speaker 1: site and start ripping posters off the wall trying to
Speaker 1: find this guy. And they do find a poster, of course,
Speaker 1: because it's television that says it's him and a woman
Speaker 1: standing together and underneath it says we chose the path
Speaker 1: to love. There's a cross. This is very gaudy and
Speaker 1: then not gaudy, like over the top God at like
Speaker 1: a lot of God, and live goes looking pretty heterosexual.
Speaker 1: And it's a advertisement for a place called ReGenesis. So
Speaker 1: now we cut to Huang George Wang with the lowdown
Speaker 1: and he's like ReGenesis is a Christian ministry service advocating
Speaker 1: freedom from homosexuality through prayer and counseling. It started in
Speaker 1: the eighties as the so called ex gay movement, and
Speaker 1: it was started by two x gays called Derek and
Speaker 1: Kelly Singer. And they don't condemn homosexuality outright, like they're
Speaker 1: not into gay bashing. They just think it's a sin
Speaker 1: and that everyone has to resist the sin. I just
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, this is a question that tail
Speaker 1: as old as time. It's not anything original, but like,
Speaker 1: why won't these people mind their business?
Speaker 4: Why can't they mind their business?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I just don't get it. Well, I definitely think
Speaker 1: when people are gay bashing, I think what these people
Speaker 1: think they're doing is helping people get over like a
Speaker 1: gambling addiction. Like it's the same thing as gambling or
Speaker 1: drinking too much, like listen, you just have to avoid
Speaker 1: like this. That's that's what I get the idea that
Speaker 1: ReGenesis is trying to do. So bd Wong says it's controversial,
Speaker 1: and fucking Stabler is like, okay, so if someone thinks
Speaker 1: being gay is a sin, not saying I do, what's
Speaker 1: wrong with wanting to change? And bd Wog's like, it's
Speaker 1: the assumption that you can change, like they claim they've
Speaker 1: converted people back to straight with no proof, and surprise, surprise,
Speaker 1: Doctor's aka science say it's bullshit. So let's find out
Speaker 1: who this poster boy for the X gay movement pissed off.
Speaker 1: So now we're at the Regenicis headquarters and the founders,
Speaker 1: Derek and Kelly Singer are sitting there and they tell
Speaker 1: him that this guy's name is James Reid. They saw
Speaker 1: him over six months ago was the last time, and
Speaker 1: they were trying to reach out to him but not
Speaker 1: getting an answer. He thought they were judging him, but
Speaker 1: they weren't, and they're like, you weren't. You didn't think
Speaker 1: it was bad he was gay, And Derek is like,
Speaker 1: you think we're religious fanatics and God turned us straight.
Speaker 1: It's a struggle. We fight it every day and it's like,
Speaker 1: why would you want to live like that? I really
Speaker 1: don't get it. But it was James's idea to be
Speaker 1: on the poster. Initially he wanted people to like to
Speaker 1: know that homosexuality doesn't have to control you. But he
Speaker 1: had doubts and Benson said, yeah, like he had a boyfriend.
Speaker 1: That doesn't look good for you guys, and they're like,
Speaker 1: you think we killed James, like and they're like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe you felt betrayed. This makes your whole organization kind
Speaker 1: of look like a sham, like your poster boy did
Speaker 1: not get actually successfully converted. And they're like, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: care if he had a hundred boyfriends if it made
Speaker 1: him happy. I knew it didn't. And they're like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: what's the address? So at his apartment. We're now at
Speaker 1: James Reid's apartment and there's no blood on the bed,
Speaker 1: but there's a syllabus for a clinical psych class at
Speaker 1: Hudson University and it looks like he's going for his masters.
Speaker 1: They find picks of him on vacation with a guy
Speaker 1: named Phil and live is talking shit about the gay
Speaker 1: conversion idiots convincing themselves they're happy, and Stabler's like, maybe
Speaker 1: they are, and she's like, okay, so suppressing your sexual
Speaker 1: desires makes a gay person a good Christian? Like that's fucked.
Speaker 1: And here's Stabler with his very regressive sexuality as a
Speaker 1: choice argument, and our queen has to put him in
Speaker 1: his place. So they find some hate mail, twenty to
Speaker 1: thirty letters that are addressed from Nebraska, and they're like,
Speaker 1: let's go talk to this boyfriend Phil. They find this
Speaker 1: old ass flip phone with a number in it for Phil,
Speaker 1: So now we're talking to Phil, who is a doctor,
Speaker 1: and Stabler does call him doctor Phil, and it's very
Speaker 1: funny to me. And they're like, you didn't report your
Speaker 1: boyfriend missing and he's like, my ex boyfriend. We broke
Speaker 1: up three months ago. He has no family, so I'm
Speaker 1: paying for the funeral. And they're like, why did you
Speaker 1: break up? And he's like, we weren't the loves of
Speaker 1: each other's lives, but I think we got what we
Speaker 1: needed from each other. We met at ReGenesis and then
Speaker 1: we realized how dumb it was, and we and doctor
Speaker 1: Phil says, I used to think being straight would be easier,
Speaker 1: but now I just can't imagine being anyone other than
Speaker 1: who I am. And he said that's the one good
Speaker 1: thing about ReGenesis is like I met James and was
Speaker 1: able to leave and realize how dumb it was and
Speaker 1: live my truth. And so he says, regenicis people are
Speaker 1: basically good people. They just believe in God's road map.
Speaker 1: So they asked him, do you know who wrote all
Speaker 1: this hate mail? And he goes, well, he wrote a
Speaker 1: bunch of articles bashing ReGenesis, so he made himself a target.
Speaker 1: So really it could be any of the people that
Speaker 1: are homophobic in this world. And he said also that
Speaker 1: James was seeing somebody, but he was deep in the
Speaker 1: closet and that they figure maybe this person will come
Speaker 1: out to attend the funeral. So now we're at the
Speaker 1: funeral and there's a full protest going on with members
Speaker 1: of the Church of Eternal Providence in Nebraska. They're picketing
Speaker 1: and chanting, they're yelling God hates you and all this horrible,
Speaker 1: vile shit. And one of the protesters is this, like
Speaker 1: truly decrepit man with the yellowest nasty teeth, who I
Speaker 1: am hoping and praying that they didn't just cast this
Speaker 1: man like this, and that they added some yellow to
Speaker 1: his teeth. Because it's a problem. Who knows this guy,
Speaker 1: you know, he knows all of God's exact thoughts and feelings,
Speaker 1: and he wants to let these people know that they
Speaker 1: are you know, abominations and is yelling slurs at them,
Speaker 1: and Phil starts like a fight. Phil arrives at the
Speaker 1: funeral and is like, get out of here, and he's
Speaker 1: doing the like he's pushing with the gross teeth man,
Speaker 1: and in all the shoving, gross teeth man crosses the
Speaker 1: line of what is considered legal protest area where they've
Speaker 1: been permitted. So now he gets arrested. So now top
Speaker 1: of AC two, we're talking to you know, mister bigot,
Speaker 1: mcyellow teeth. Reverend Mitchell Shaw is his name, and he's
Speaker 1: doing the Lord's work blah blah blah. He quotes the
Speaker 1: Bible about homosexuality is a sin and worthy of death.
Speaker 1: And now we get Stabler coming in at least to
Speaker 1: be put to good use with his Catholic school education,
Speaker 1: and he's like, like, the Bible also tells me I
Speaker 1: can sell my daughters into slavery and I should be
Speaker 1: put to death if I work on Sundays, Buddy, like,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? And this man was like
Speaker 1: nine to eleven happened because there's so many gay people
Speaker 1: in New York, like it's fucking out of control, and
Speaker 1: Stabler is pissed. He calls him a bigot hiding his
Speaker 1: bullshit behind the lord. And then we have a lot
Speaker 1: of Olivia saying the F word and quoting his letters
Speaker 1: to James, and he admits to writing them, but he says,
Speaker 1: you can't prosecute me for writing letters, and he wishes
Speaker 1: he had killed read but he was a thousand miles away.
Speaker 1: Now the squad is all making fun of this gross
Speaker 1: old man, but Craigan says, the police back in Nebraska
Speaker 1: do confirm it is his alibi, Like he was picketing
Speaker 1: a totally other innocent person's funeral, probably in another state.
Speaker 1: So Novak says, caught him loose, and Benson's like yeah,
Speaker 1: but one of his followers of his congregation, like totally
Speaker 1: could have you know, decided to take it a step further.
Speaker 1: And Novak's like, yeah, proven, maybe I can get him
Speaker 1: on the fighting words doctrine. But then, as we so
Speaker 1: often wonder with the show, what about the semen these
Speaker 1: people like, because these people wouldn't have had sex with him,
Speaker 1: they would have just killed him. So like, is what
Speaker 1: we still need to find out this mystery boyfriend? Like
Speaker 1: what's going on? And a lot of people left before
Speaker 1: they could talk to them because of the fight that
Speaker 1: broke out, so that scared some people off. But so
Speaker 1: Munch found a camera that one of the church members
Speaker 1: must have left behind and he's like, oops, they must
Speaker 1: have left it behind, wink wink, and Novac is like
Speaker 1: I didn't hear that. And he's like I'm just going
Speaker 1: to develop their film for free and then get it
Speaker 1: back to them, and Cragan is like, go show those
Speaker 1: pictures around to like all the people you talk to
Speaker 1: at the funeral and see if we can like make
Speaker 1: some ideas. So now we're at Hudson University and a
Speaker 1: professor is like, like I told you, I don't really
Speaker 1: know James's friends, I just know his research. He was
Speaker 1: working on a long term study on reparative therapy and
Speaker 1: the theory that same sex attraction is arrested development and
Speaker 1: can be cured. And they're like, well, most shrinks think
Speaker 1: that's crap, and he's like, yes, I agree, it's experimental
Speaker 1: and it's unproven at best, and at worst, patients develop anxiety, depression,
Speaker 1: increased risks of suicide having been subjected to repairative therapy.
Speaker 1: And so his research was proving that reparative therapists know
Speaker 1: their treatment doesn't work, but pray on vulnerable patient patients
Speaker 1: like snake oil salesman or like many religious peace. So
Speaker 1: his whole thing was going to debunk all this reparative
Speaker 1: therapists like work that you guys are all bullshit. And
Speaker 1: the only people who have even read his proposal are
Speaker 1: three professors, and he goes, actually there was a fourth one,
Speaker 1: but he resigned. His name was Roger Tait, and he's
Speaker 1: a proponent of reparative therapy, and that's why he wanted
Speaker 1: to have him on the study for like you know,
Speaker 1: all sides, I guess, and he thought there were methodological
Speaker 1: problems with the study, and that's why he resigned from him.
Speaker 1: So now we're talking to Roger Tait, and it is
Speaker 1: the late great George Siegel or SEAgel, I think, and
Speaker 1: I know him from Look who's talking? Just shoot me.
Speaker 1: He was also more recently in the Goldbergs and then
Speaker 1: he did pass away in twenty twenty one, and I
Speaker 1: love this man. I loved him in movies. I've seen
Speaker 1: him in forever and he's like an act like was
Speaker 1: a big actor in the seventies and eighties as well. Anyway,
Speaker 1: he says, listen, I disagreed with James, but I liked
Speaker 1: him and I respected him, and we debated in symposiums.
Speaker 1: Rodger believes being gay is a complex pathology and that
Speaker 1: if you identify the root of the neurosis, you can
Speaker 1: change the neurotic behavior, and his research shows that an
Speaker 1: overbearing mother combined with a distant father influences psychosexual development,
Speaker 1: Like the gay man wants a relationship with his dad
Speaker 1: and then he seeks it out with other men. And
Speaker 1: I see is like, that must have pissed you off
Speaker 1: that James's research was going to torpedo your work. And
Speaker 1: he's like, his methods were shoddy. He was probably never
Speaker 1: going to be published, and I felt sorry for him.
Speaker 1: He treats a lot of men who try to fill
Speaker 1: their empty lives with anonymous sex and loveless relationships. And
Speaker 1: James tried to convince himself that he was normal, But
Speaker 1: how could he have been? This is so like such
Speaker 1: like an old episode in my mind. Munch is like, oh,
Speaker 1: if an overbearing mother and a distant father are what
Speaker 1: make you gay, then color me gay. And they pass
Speaker 1: a guy going into the office, and Munch does a
Speaker 1: little tricky thing and he asks the receptionist excuse me,
Speaker 1: was that Elliott Stabler? And he goes, no, that's Ian,
Speaker 1: doctor Tate's. So the woman just offers this information love it,
Speaker 1: like if it was a patient, she wouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to tell you who that was. Anyway, Munch recognizes the
Speaker 1: dude and goes, that guy was at the funeral. So
Speaker 1: we find out that Ian Tate is twenty years old.
Speaker 1: He dropped out of school upstate after one semester and
Speaker 1: now is in community college. The mom is dead. The
Speaker 1: father pays for the apartment, which is surprised half a
Speaker 1: block away from the dump site.
Speaker 2: Not even like, oh, this guy is so familiar looking
Speaker 2: to me the sun and I don't know from where
Speaker 2: I know him, Like he's in one episode of Six
Speaker 2: Feet Under.
Speaker 1: I'm like, is that it?
Speaker 2: Like I'm looking at all his credits and I'm like,
Speaker 2: none of these are connected to me, But this man's
Speaker 2: face is it just from SVU?
Speaker 1: Like Lisa, when I tell you I wrote the exact
Speaker 1: same thing I wrote. This is Jonathan Tucker. He looks familiar.
Speaker 1: I thought i'd seen him in more, but I think
Speaker 1: I only know him from Hannibal, the TV show. He
Speaker 1: was in Hannibal, which I watched. That must be where
Speaker 1: I recognized him from. He was also in Parenthood. Did
Speaker 1: you watch that? I did watch Parenthood. I just saw
Speaker 1: that he was in ten episodes.
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to but I don't remember Bob Little
Speaker 2: Christina Bambert former.
Speaker 1: Oh he was running for mayor. Okay, yeah, so we
Speaker 1: both know him from like one show. But I thought
Speaker 1: i'd seen him in like a lot of stuff, but
Speaker 1: I haven't. He's also Injustified and American Gods and yeah,
Speaker 1: that's this guy. He's in Echoes with Daniel Soon Jada. Oh,
Speaker 1: excuse me, we need to watch that now.
Speaker 2: It really came and went like you would think a
Speaker 2: Netflix show would be more in the No, do you
Speaker 2: think it was in other people's You should watch and
Speaker 2: it's trending and it's just not in ours, Like we're
Speaker 2: Daniel Soon Jada fans.
Speaker 1: I know you got to know by my Google search
Speaker 1: that I'm looking up on I'm on Daniel Sujatta's IMDb
Speaker 1: Paige Weekly. But anyway, they find out that yes, the
Speaker 1: father pays for a department so close to where the
Speaker 1: body was dumped, and that there were over fifty calls
Speaker 1: between Ian the son, and James Reed the night, including
Speaker 1: the night of the death. So they're like, so, doctor
Speaker 1: Homophobe's son is gay and killed his boyfriend. If he
Speaker 1: was ashamed to be gay, maybe he just had to
Speaker 1: destroy James And so a lot I think it's wrong
Speaker 1: saying this that a lot of gay people suffer from
Speaker 1: internalized homophobia and from a culture that demonizes him. Plus
Speaker 1: a dad who spent years promoting being gay as unacceptable,
Speaker 1: so he would have done anything to keep the illusion
Speaker 1: of being straight. So now they go talk to Ian
Speaker 1: tape and he's like, James Reed, never heard of him,
Speaker 1: And they're like, okay, liar, we have the phone records.
Speaker 1: And he's like, yeah, James was harassing me because of
Speaker 1: my dad, and he calls him the F word as well,
Speaker 1: and Stabler says most homophobes are repressed homosexuals, which is
Speaker 1: a myth and that's not true, but you know, that's
Speaker 1: what Stabler is throwing out at him to try to
Speaker 1: get him to roll.
Speaker 2: I know it's like a myth, but I do feel
Speaker 2: it's sometimes true. But why is it offensive? Like, I
Speaker 2: know people are offended by that kind of thinking, but
Speaker 2: in my head of like, you know, doth protest too much?
Speaker 1: Yes, the lady doth protests too much?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like my whole thing is, if like you're
Speaker 2: living or truth in your best life, why like you
Speaker 2: would understand why, like if you were in like and
Speaker 2: a loving thing, you would want that for everybody. So
Speaker 2: I just assume people that are so hateful of others
Speaker 2: are jealous because they don't get to live their true life.
Speaker 2: But obviously some people are just hateful fucks. I was
Speaker 2: just wondering why it's offensive. Yeah, I know, I'm reading.
Speaker 1: I was reading an article about it really quickly, but
Speaker 1: then I just got stuck on something else, so I
Speaker 1: don't I don't think I finished it because I wanted
Speaker 1: to know too, I would. I wanted to know if
Speaker 1: that was true. So I looked it up and it's
Speaker 1: and I found out that it was a myth. But
Speaker 1: every Republican Bossian that is against gays is always found
Speaker 1: tapping on a bathroom stall, yeag sex workers. They're always caught,
Speaker 1: They're always caught with stuff on their hard drive. Like
Speaker 1: it is wild that every Christian leader and Republican government
Speaker 1: official that hates gay people. It's like it it seems
Speaker 1: like they're always found out to be doing gay stuff.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, because it's like is it worth yeah,
Speaker 1: like because to me, there's almost something a little bit
Speaker 1: worse about not only being a big but being a hypocrite.
Speaker 1: Like you can like if you're a bigot, that's not
Speaker 1: trying to stop but you're also a bigot that's like
Speaker 1: trying to actively stop people from living this life that
Speaker 1: you kind of wish you could live. That's why I'm
Speaker 1: always like grossed out by these Republican like you know,
Speaker 1: politicians that are toe tapping in the bathroom. But anyway,
Speaker 1: that's a great question.
Speaker 2: Because it makes it seem like everyone in the closet
Speaker 2: is hateful in a killer and that's not Yeah, like
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's times people in a closet that you
Speaker 2: know aren't hateful. Yeah, it's it's complicated, But to think
Speaker 2: it's a full myth, I think is.
Speaker 1: Like also not true. It happens well I think it's
Speaker 1: to say that most of them are repressed. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was is the myth. There obviously exists homophobes who
Speaker 1: are who are homosexual.
Speaker 2: Obviously no one's seen American Beauty.
Speaker 1: That's one of my favorite movies.
Speaker 2: I know Kevin Spacey has turned out to be kind
Speaker 2: of a criminal, but that movie really does it for me.
Speaker 1: That really that movie was a big one for me
Speaker 1: back in the day. But anyway, Live is like, be
Speaker 1: honest with us, and he's like, I'm not gay and
Speaker 1: I didn't kill him. And Stabler is like helping some
Speaker 1: old lady out of the building and Lives like, okay,
Speaker 1: they why don't you just give us a DNA sample
Speaker 1: And he's like nope and walks away and they don't
Speaker 1: have cause to compel a swab, and it's like, fuck
Speaker 1: this old lady. Stabler was really grabbing the door so
Speaker 1: that he could go in and do some snooping and
Speaker 1: check a dryer that melts clothes or whatever. So now
Speaker 1: we're in the laundry room and they're just like feeling
Speaker 1: laundry machines and Stabler finds one that's hot, hot, hot,
Speaker 1: and he finds a piece of melted nylon in the
Speaker 1: lint trap and says this should get us a warrant
Speaker 1: for Ian's apartment. And it's like, how how could like
Speaker 1: literally a piece of a nylon in a communal dryer
Speaker 1: get you a warrant to someone's apartment. I'm obviously as
Speaker 1: as always willing to go along to get along for
Speaker 1: the sake of television, but that is not a smoking
Speaker 1: gun to get a warrant. And it's kind of nuts
Speaker 1: to me. At Ian's apartment, the place has been cleaned
Speaker 1: and recently painted, and Live finds a bit of uneven
Speaker 1: wall that looks like it's been recently patched, and Sabler goes,
Speaker 1: got a saw and and and then he goes bring it.
Speaker 1: Like the way he says it is so funny because
Speaker 1: Stable just goes bring it. Got a saw?
Speaker 5: Yeah, bring it?
Speaker 1: And I want everyone to go back and watch it
Speaker 1: on Hulu, like right now, it's made me laugh so much.
Speaker 1: I listened to it six times. And so now this
Speaker 1: man is sawing open the wall. Ian comes home with
Speaker 1: his dad Roger in tow and they're demanding a warrant.
Speaker 1: They slap it in his face and he's like, I'm
Speaker 1: calling a lawyer. And Stabler goes, yeah, like, let's see
Speaker 1: what we see in here, and they open up this
Speaker 1: patch of wall and on the beams behind the wall
Speaker 1: there's just straight up blood and hair sitting right there
Speaker 1: on the wall on the beams, and it's like, Wow,
Speaker 1: you got a crew to come in here for a
Speaker 1: deep clean and a spackle, but no one thought like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's wipe off this blood that's like visible to the
Speaker 1: to the untrained eye, like it's wild. And then Stabler
Speaker 1: goes all that plastering for nothing, and they arrest Ian
Speaker 1: and the dad goes, I'm getting you a lawyer. Don't
Speaker 1: say a word something. A lot of s of you
Speaker 1: suspects do need to be told. Top of act three,
Speaker 1: And we get this court clerk who is announcing the
Speaker 1: case and he's got a Southern accent and is very
Speaker 1: noticeable to me. And he's the one in the courtroom
Speaker 1: in the episode design who goes, how I patrol just
Speaker 1: found mistrust? Remember that guy?
Speaker 4: How can I forget? Yeah, how can I find get?
Speaker 2: A full phone phone conversation in the courtroom.
Speaker 4: But also a kind of a brag.
Speaker 2: At our Sacramento show, we met a sonographer, yes, and
Speaker 2: she told us that stenographers are hot and cool, and
Speaker 2: she doesn't like being portrayed as an old idiot with
Speaker 2: old technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't use the like doop doup thing anymore,
Speaker 1: where like your hands just move along. I think they
Speaker 1: use different shit.
Speaker 2: There's a shorthand and you get to create your own shorthand.
Speaker 2: We learned, and she was hot, and she brought her daughter,
Speaker 2: so shout out it's our stenographer friend.
Speaker 1: Yes, stenographer from Sacramento. Anyway, this man was funny to me.
Speaker 1: And he's been in five episodes of SVU and three
Speaker 1: episodes of Regular Law and Order, always just as like
Speaker 1: a court clerk, and I love the idea that the
Speaker 1: show's just like bouncing back and forth, like we just
Speaker 1: need a guy to like read out a court number.
Speaker 1: So he's like doc at seven three four case of
Speaker 1: Ian Tate or whatever. And then holy shit. His lawyer
Speaker 1: is Daphne Zuniga. She's from Spaceballs and Melrose Place. Obviously
Speaker 1: a huge part of my childhood. I watched this woman.
Speaker 1: I've watched hours of this woman. As I throw my
Speaker 1: brow and I'm like, who who she's princess. She's the
Speaker 1: princess in Spaceballs. She's like a huge part and just
Speaker 1: was one of the stars of Melrose Place, like she
Speaker 1: and Grant show had this like hot romance. And I
Speaker 1: guess she was also more recently a regular on One
Speaker 1: Tree Hill, which might hit for some of our listeners
Speaker 1: as well. So here she's playing Emma De'schelle and.
Speaker 4: So we don't get Postslater going.
Speaker 1: What about One Tree Hill? Yeah, she this is her
Speaker 1: only episode of SVU. She's not like a recurring lawyer
Speaker 1: though I don't know why. She's pretty fun and Ian
Speaker 1: Tate pleads not guilty, and Casey asks for remand since
Speaker 1: he's a violent homophobe and his lawyer claims he was
Speaker 1: defending himself after being sexually assaulted by James Reid, and
Speaker 1: this is the first time Casey's heard of this assault
Speaker 1: excuse at all, and she's like and Emma's like, well,
Speaker 1: you're an SVU ada and you should know that victims
Speaker 1: delay reporting all the time. And they're like, well, we
Speaker 1: found his semen at the scene. And she goes, but
Speaker 1: if a woman orgasms when she's rape, does that mean
Speaker 1: she really wanted it? And that is a good point
Speaker 1: and I did right. If a woman owes when she's
Speaker 1: ard and I'm just wanted to explain how I take notes,
Speaker 1: and the judge is like, I'll hear proof of the
Speaker 1: rape later and remands him, which is shocking for like
Speaker 1: a white boy with money to get remand you know
Speaker 1: when he also claims that he was a victim. So
Speaker 1: now Casey is talking to the late Senator Fred Thompson
Speaker 1: the DA about how this assault thing is bullshit and
Speaker 1: it's an attempt at a gay panic defense, which she
Speaker 1: says rarely works. She says in the Matthew Shepherd case,
Speaker 1: the judge didn't even allow the defense to present a
Speaker 1: gay panic defense, but in New York he points out
Speaker 1: gay panic falls under extreme emotional disturbance. But Casey said,
Speaker 1: jury still don't buy it. And I looked it up.
Speaker 1: And in twenty eighteen, two Democratic senators introduced a bill
Speaker 1: that would ban the gay and trans Panic defense at
Speaker 1: a national level, but it died in committee. In twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, it was reintroduced to Congress as the Gay
Speaker 1: and trans Panic Defense Prohibition Act of twenty nineteen. It
Speaker 1: died at the end of twenty twenty. Reintroduced in April
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one, and it seems to still be
Speaker 1: in committee, but has a very low chance of passing,
Speaker 1: which fucking sucks because I don't think that that should
Speaker 1: be a legitimate defense anyway. The DA tells Casey, it's
Speaker 1: just wonder thinking that being gay as a sin for
Speaker 1: your murder charge to be knocked down to manslaughter, and
Speaker 1: he goes that Texas case did a lot for gay rights,
Speaker 1: but it also incited a backlash, and what he's talking
Speaker 1: about is Lawrence versus Texas, which is in two thousand
Speaker 1: and three, the same year with this episode came out,
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court ruled that sodomy laws, which are basically
Speaker 1: any adult non procreative sexual activity, are unconstitutional.
Speaker 2: And just while that, there's a group of people that
Speaker 2: are like, that's not It's like, mind your fucking business,
Speaker 2: these fucking losers.
Speaker 1: I just yeah and so yeah. So he's like, basically,
Speaker 1: the ADA says, you got to prove this guy is gay,
Speaker 1: so that the gay panic defense goes bye bye. And
Speaker 1: the tricky par is not playing the politics of it.
Speaker 1: They want to make this about straight versus gay. You
Speaker 1: need to make it about murder. So now we're at
Speaker 1: a diner and the gang is chatting over food and
Speaker 1: it looks I literally fat rewound it six times. It
Speaker 1: looks like Live is eating a pile of tuna on
Speaker 1: a bed of lettuce. Stabler had a burger but left
Speaker 1: one half of the bun behind, and then some fries,
Speaker 1: and then Casey had some kind of sandwich, maybe a
Speaker 1: turkey club. And they do have onion rings for the
Speaker 1: table in between all of them, but maybe they were
Speaker 1: bad because they look untouched. Benson is poking at her
Speaker 1: food and is reporting that Ian is a loser with
Speaker 1: no friends and that he only really talked to his dad's.
Speaker 1: He has no subscriptions to gay mag gaines, no receipts
Speaker 1: from gay bars, like nothing that indicates that he was
Speaker 1: gay or I'm sorry, is gay. This is we're talking
Speaker 1: about Ian, and Live says she wouldn't be surprised if
Speaker 1: James was his only boyfriend he's ever had. Munch shows
Speaker 1: up with some bad news. There is an assault report
Speaker 1: from the night of the murder from Ian Tate at
Speaker 1: the hospital. But why didn't the lawyer present that to
Speaker 1: get him bail? That's what I would like to know,
Speaker 1: Like your honor, we have a hospital report, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know why. Now we're talking to the E
Speaker 1: R nurse who confirms that this guy checked in at
Speaker 1: eleven oh five. He had a I think she's had
Speaker 1: a fourteen cm laceration on his right arm. Fourteen centimeters
Speaker 1: seems like a really big laceration, bruises on his Tourso
Speaker 1: and he said he got mugged. Benson points out that
Speaker 1: the cops weren't called till the morning, and she's like,
Speaker 1: welcome to Thursday night at the Knife and Gun Club.
Speaker 1: We were busy, bitch. And she said she would have
Speaker 1: asked about a sexual assault if she had seen any
Speaker 1: signs of it, but she didn't, and so like, and
Speaker 1: there's also she confirmed that there's no way this man
Speaker 1: could have left and come back if you leave you
Speaker 1: your spot. So now Benson and Stable are talking about
Speaker 1: the timeline, and they're like, when would he have had
Speaker 1: time to jump the body with this hospital visit where
Speaker 1: he probably had to wait hours and like, you know,
Speaker 1: it was not there at eleven o'clock, but it was
Speaker 1: there at like eight am, So like, when would he
Speaker 1: have time to move the body? And it had to
Speaker 1: have been his father, no one else in his life
Speaker 1: is a dump a body for you kind of friend.
Speaker 1: So we got to play daddy at the scene. So
Speaker 1: now we're talking to a friend of the pod Eternal
Speaker 1: Hatty Daniel sun Jada, who we were just talking about
Speaker 1: aka Bert Trevor, and he's like, yep, you guys were right.
Speaker 1: And we're looking at the patch of wall that he removed,
Speaker 1: that they removed from Ian's house, and he shows them
Speaker 1: how the second type of blood. When you push someone's
Speaker 1: head through the wall and your hand goes through, you're
Speaker 1: gonna like scrape your hand at the top when you're
Speaker 1: pulling your hand out. So at the top of the
Speaker 1: hole they find a second type of blood and that
Speaker 1: would be the killer's blood type. It's not Ian Tates type,
Speaker 1: but it is or not blood type. They did the DNA.
Speaker 1: It's not Ian Tates, but it's a close male relative.
Speaker 1: Boom go the dynamite And now we're at Riker's. Novak
Speaker 1: is talking to Ian and his lawyer Daphne Zuniga and
Speaker 1: telling him she's got a sweet deal for him if
Speaker 1: he recance his statement, and he's like, it's the truth.
Speaker 1: I thought he thought he forced himself on me and
Speaker 1: I fought back, and they're like, okay, when did you
Speaker 1: jump the body, and he's like, I don't recall, and
Speaker 1: they're like, why does this matter? And Casey Novac is like,
Speaker 1: I think your client knows, and he goes, he caught you,
Speaker 1: didn't he and Hean's like shut up, and then they're like,
Speaker 1: we found your father's blood. And the lawyer is like,
Speaker 1: then you have to drop the charges, and Casey's like,
Speaker 1: why don't you sit your ass down? Because if your
Speaker 1: client doesn't want to go down for accessory, he better
Speaker 1: listen up. So she slowly sits down, and it's very
Speaker 1: satisfying to see Casey just whip people into shape. He
Speaker 1: kind of says to Casey, you have no idea, and
Speaker 1: then Casey starts in on this like little monologue about
Speaker 1: how James knew how you felt like wanting to change
Speaker 1: yourself but you can't. He was someone who understood you,
Speaker 1: and now he's gone. You went to the hospital not
Speaker 1: because James attacked you, it's because your father attacked you.
Speaker 1: And then Ian spills the tea. He's like, he didn't
Speaker 1: mean to. He was shocked seeing me like that, and like,
Speaker 1: just tell them he wasn't himself. It wasn't his fault.
Speaker 1: So he's like really into making sure his dad doesn't
Speaker 1: get in trouble for killing his boyfriend. And so next
Speaker 1: they're barging into Daddy Tate's office and he's like, what
Speaker 1: the hell and they arrest him. Is asked in what
Speaker 1: looks like a bunch of gay men that he's trying
Speaker 1: to reprogram. So now we're at the top of AC four.
Speaker 1: We see Novak pulling up to the courthouse on a
Speaker 1: bike with a helmet and everything. I don't know if
Speaker 1: we've ever seen this again, but I'm here for it.
Speaker 1: And right when she gets there, we meet a defense attorney,
Speaker 1: Dave Seaver, who is in seven episodes of SVU, three
Speaker 1: original recipes, including this current season of the New Lawn
Speaker 1: Order reboot, but.
Speaker 4: This is his first episode.
Speaker 1: This is his first appearance, and he has defended some
Speaker 1: classic wild people on the show, like the mushroom guy
Speaker 1: from Wet, the twin Sessed con artists from Bombshell Like.
Speaker 1: He's been all over the place. He's in family, He's
Speaker 1: the one about the brother I slept with my sister,
Speaker 1: So a lot of good ones. Also interesting thing about
Speaker 1: Dave Sever the Wikipedia. The fandom Wikipedia says that his
Speaker 1: full name is Mary and Dave Sever, But I wonder
Speaker 1: what episode it is where we find out that his
Speaker 1: real first name is Marian. Also, it's revealed in an
Speaker 1: episode of Law and Order that he not only is
Speaker 1: a lawyer, but he graduated from Harvard Medical School too.
Speaker 1: I wonder if Neil Baher was trying to like put
Speaker 1: a little bit of himself into this Dave sever character.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I know if your first name is silly,
Speaker 2: you always go with the middle name.
Speaker 1: The people are sure that I know a lot of guys.
Speaker 1: So funny to me, he's a very secondary character on
Speaker 1: the show that he has a secret first name. That's
Speaker 1: funny to me. Like it's not like we find out
Speaker 1: that Olivia's first name is really like Priscilla, you know.
Speaker 2: Like I've I always have loved him because he he's funny.
Speaker 2: He's he's like always got a funny line. He's sassy
Speaker 2: and confident and fun Yeah, he's even though he's only
Speaker 2: been only but like in seven episodes, he's really made
Speaker 2: an impact, like I assumed he was in twenty plus
Speaker 2: episode because he is so memorable as that.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 1: This actor's name is Michael Boatman. He's a longtime, very
Speaker 1: successful actor. His resume includes Spin City, Rless and The
Speaker 1: Good Fight. So maybe you've not seen him in twenty
Speaker 1: episodes of s View, but he's been in hundreds of
Speaker 1: episodes of televisions. Absolutely, he's out there, he's rich, he's
Speaker 1: out there. So he immediately teases Casey about the bike
Speaker 1: and is like, how environmentally conscious? It's funny, and then
Speaker 1: he introduces himself, but Casey passes on the handshake and
Speaker 1: he's the guy that's defending Roger Tate. Casey immediately roasts
Speaker 1: him and is like, oh, yeah, I remember you from
Speaker 1: state Senate elections. I didn't vote for you, yep, aren't.
Speaker 1: And he's like, no one did. It's okay. My shrink
Speaker 1: says it's made me less self destructive, and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: how are you self destructive? Man who is a high
Speaker 1: powered lawyer as well as holding a medical degree from Harvard,
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear what you do to like let
Speaker 1: loose And Casey's like, dude, you want the conservative vote,
Speaker 1: that's fine, but this ain't the client to do it with.
Speaker 1: This guy's not about family values. He's just a straight
Speaker 1: up kill. And Dave's like he was defending his son
Speaker 1: from a rapist and Casey says Ian admitted that sex
Speaker 1: was consensual, so that's actually not going to work, and
Speaker 1: He's like, yes, his client was wrong, but he's still
Speaker 1: justifiable homicide because he thought that he was being attacked.
Speaker 1: So he slaps emotion on Casey and now we're in
Speaker 1: the judges chambers and he's pitching his defense to the
Speaker 1: judge that Roger Tate thought James Reid was raping his
Speaker 1: son Ian. He brings up a penal code which says
Speaker 1: you can use deadly forced to stop force ablesodomy, and
Speaker 1: Casey's like, well, that's fucking dumb, because no reasonable person
Speaker 1: thinks that two men having sex means rape automatically. And
Speaker 1: his research, this man's research focuses on aggression, deviant behavior,
Speaker 1: and promiscuity in gay men, so he's got the studies
Speaker 1: to back it up. And Novak's like, his studies are
Speaker 1: not accepted by the scientific community. They are bullshit. And
Speaker 1: Steever's like, I'm not trying to say that they are
Speaker 1: like legit studies. I'm using them to go towards his
Speaker 1: proof of his state of mind. He didn't know his
Speaker 1: son was gay, so this is basically like a second
Speaker 1: hand panick defense. Like gay panic defense. You know, it's like,
Speaker 1: my son couldn't possibly be gazed with this man's attacking him.
Speaker 1: And Casey's like, this is an attempt to encourage and
Speaker 1: exploit bigotry against homosexual sexuals, and he's going for jury nullification.
Speaker 1: I don't really know what that means, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: probably look it up, but we have so many lawyer listeners,
Speaker 1: somebody just tell me what dury nullification is. The judge
Speaker 1: doesn't want to throw out a defense just because the
Speaker 1: jury might believe it. He wants to let the jury decide.
Speaker 1: So now we're in court. Ian is on the stand,
Speaker 1: explaining that his dad has a key to his apartment
Speaker 1: and the night of the murder, he was bringing over
Speaker 1: dinner and Ian thought that he was out of town.
Speaker 1: He describes how his dad called him in bed, pulled
Speaker 1: James away from him, pushed him into the wall two
Speaker 1: or three times. He heard a crack and James stopped
Speaker 1: fighting and he was dead. So his dad then attacked
Speaker 1: him and kept asking how can you do this? How
Speaker 1: could you do this to me? Now, Dave sever gets
Speaker 1: his turn and quickly calls Ian a lifelong liar for
Speaker 1: being in the closet, like so wild. He's like, have
Speaker 1: you ever seen your dad be violent before? And He's like,
Speaker 1: he's never been violent with me. The only time I've
Speaker 1: ever seen it was when a kid was picking on
Speaker 1: me at school on a fight with the kid's dad
Speaker 1: and broke his nose. And so Dave Sever's like, oh,
Speaker 1: so he's only violent when he's defending you. And then
Speaker 1: he says, why did you confess? And Ian is like
Speaker 1: so self hating. He's like, nobody gets that this all
Speaker 1: happened because of me and because of what I am.
Speaker 1: If I weren't so sick, I could have controlled myself.
Speaker 1: It was my fault, and I didn't want my dad
Speaker 1: going to jail for my mistake. Very fucked up. And
Speaker 1: you know, I hope he won't. We see what happens.
Speaker 1: So in the next scene, Dave Sever is interviewing one
Speaker 1: of Roger Tate's colleagues who has a wild accent. This
Speaker 1: is called Connecticut lockjaw. It's like, I'm from Connecticut and
Speaker 1: this is like she talks in a way where her
Speaker 1: mouth never opens when she speaks, and she's like, we
Speaker 1: did a study with Tate on ten thousand homosexual men
Speaker 1: and found like, it's a horrible her voice. I like,
Speaker 1: this actress is funny to me. It's so funny this
Speaker 1: way of talking. But I knew women like this in
Speaker 1: Connecticut where I grew up, Like older women with like
Speaker 1: and voices like.
Speaker 2: This, if it stops the wrinkles from forming, you know,
Speaker 2: like Beckham, smile.
Speaker 1: Keep your face completely, bi. No. One time this woman.
Speaker 1: I worked at this store in my town, very fancy shop,
Speaker 1: and the woman who owned it was like this very
Speaker 1: older woman with Connecticut lockjaw, helmet, hair set hair, very like,
Speaker 1: just that vibe. And she one time came in and
Speaker 1: said something to my friend that my friend and I
Speaker 1: say to each other all the time, and she goes,
Speaker 1: little sweetheart, tell your mother I left the pills in
Speaker 1: the garage, and like, that's our favorite thing. I've known
Speaker 1: this girl for twenty plus years. I was sixteen when
Speaker 1: this joke happened, and I've been saying it for more
Speaker 1: than thirty years. I'll say that, No, no more than
Speaker 1: twenty years. God, I'm I'm not fifty six. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: see forty six. Anyway. Their study of ten thousand men
Speaker 1: that are gay found that they solicited sex from miners
Speaker 1: engage in high risk behavior and had violent sexual relations
Speaker 1: with more than heterosexual people. And it's like, actually, in
Speaker 1: our research, we found that heterosexuals actually loved have sex
Speaker 1: with minors, so this is definitely not real research. She
Speaker 1: says that gay men have psychological problems. They're more likely
Speaker 1: to be depressed, alienated, enough issues with rage. Now it's
Speaker 1: Novak's turn, and she's like, so, remind me where your
Speaker 1: studies have been published, and she's like they're still being considered,
Speaker 1: and Casey goes, good luck with that, and it's very great,
Speaker 1: and so she's like, why does every other study actually
Speaker 1: say that pedophiles are more likely to be heterosexual And
Speaker 1: she goes, well, that's a bias within the so called
Speaker 1: mainstream psychology, and it's like okay, Tom Cruise. So then
Speaker 1: Casey goes, so, when the APA, the American Psychiatric Association,
Speaker 1: removed homosexuality from its list of mental disorders in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy three, that was all a big conspiracy, and like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, this woman's testimony is bullshit. But
Speaker 1: now we've got Roger on the stand and he's like,
Speaker 1: I never suspected my son was gay. I wish I had,
Speaker 1: And they're like, would you have disowned him? And he goes, no,
Speaker 1: I love him. I would have done anything to help him.
Speaker 1: And Casey's like, so you guys are close, but you're
Speaker 1: not that close if you know he was gay, And
Speaker 1: Casey goes, you were also gonna let him take the
Speaker 1: fall for murder. You love Ian, but not as much
Speaker 1: as you love yourself, and he goes, I was protecting
Speaker 1: my son from a man I thought was raping him.
Speaker 1: Casey goes, why dump the body, conceal the evidence, why
Speaker 1: not call the police and tell them what a righteous
Speaker 1: guy you are? And I love that. I'm like, hell hella, Casey,
Speaker 1: Hell yeah yeah. So basically this guy go This guy
Speaker 1: tries to really turn up on Casey and he's like,
Speaker 1: how'd you how dare you question my love for my son?
Speaker 1: And Casey's like, oh, because your whole defense is predicated
Speaker 1: on him being a deviant, So how is that love?
Speaker 1: And Casey is a really great lawyer. So at the squad,
Speaker 1: Casey shows up to tell the gang that two jurors
Speaker 1: are believing this asshole, so it might be enough to
Speaker 1: hang the jury. And then Casey's like, all I've done
Speaker 1: if this doesn't If this gets like a mistrial, then
Speaker 1: all I've done is out this poor kid, and like,
Speaker 1: I feel bad about that. And then she goes, Stabler,
Speaker 1: you've got kids, you ever wonder if they're gay? And
Speaker 1: he goes, I haven't asked, and Live goes, you know
Speaker 1: your kids, you would know if one of them was gay.
Speaker 1: And Tate's whole defense is that he never had any
Speaker 1: inkling at all, and Casey's like, I just don't buy it,
Speaker 1: but I can't prove it. And so Casey mentions he
Speaker 1: had a girlfriend in high school and Lives like, oh,
Speaker 1: we never found a girlfriend because we were looking for boyfriends.
Speaker 1: So they're like, go find go visit this little girlfriend
Speaker 1: and see if she knew. And I don't know why
Speaker 1: that would matter, but here we are. And so now
Speaker 1: we're talking to Sandy and she's like, I haven't talked
Speaker 1: to Ian for years. And they're like, yeah, but you
Speaker 1: guys dated in high school, and she goes, we were
Speaker 1: good friends, but I wouldn't say that we dated. He
Speaker 1: was never really interested in the physical part and he
Speaker 1: never came out to me. But I just knew and
Speaker 1: I was happy to be his beard. So like he
Speaker 1: wouldn't get the shit kicked out of him like the
Speaker 1: other guys. And did you ever tell anyone that Ian
Speaker 1: was gay? Like tell his dad?
Speaker 2: This is an interesting I forgot who I was with
Speaker 2: talking about it, but like I would love some sort
Speaker 2: of reunion of all the girls that knowingly went with
Speaker 2: their gay best friends to prom and homecoming and all
Speaker 2: the dances. Yeah, I don't know who I was talking
Speaker 2: to her about what, but it does seem like.
Speaker 1: Something special.
Speaker 2: It seems like a special little club to be special bond.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So so yeah, they're like, did you ever tell anyone
Speaker 1: like Ian's dad that he was gay? And she's like,
Speaker 1: Ian would have killed me, Like, no, I didn't do that,
Speaker 1: And then from behind them we hear we see Sandy's
Speaker 1: sassy mom leaning on the doorframe going I told him,
Speaker 1: and I love her already, And she's like, well, like.
Speaker 2: For a second, you, for a second, you weren't scared
Speaker 2: that she was bad. I told him what like for
Speaker 2: a second when she goes, I told him, you didn't
Speaker 2: even for a second think that maybe she was like
Speaker 2: a bad Christian, like a lunatic too. That was like,
Speaker 2: just so you know your son is gay or right?
Speaker 1: Away. She was God, I didn't get that vibe. I
Speaker 1: thought she was no.
Speaker 2: I was scared for a moment, and then I like relax.
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, this is one of our friends. Like,
Speaker 2: but I was actually nervous.
Speaker 1: For a second. She like reminds me of one of
Speaker 1: my aunts. Like she's just like funny to me, like
Speaker 1: my aunt Grace. I feel like she reminds me of
Speaker 1: you met her like and she's just like listen. He
Speaker 1: was such a sweet boy. He was like my second child.
Speaker 1: I could see was suffering, and I thought Rogers should know.
Speaker 1: I told him and Roger's senior or I told them that.
Speaker 1: During their senior year, I called him and I said, Roger,
Speaker 1: you should talk to Ian. He's very depressed. I said, Roger,
Speaker 1: your son is gay, and you're making an incredibly difficult situation. Worse,
Speaker 1: you need to be a father. And then she says
Speaker 1: that Roger Tate thanked her and said never contact me again.
Speaker 1: So that one overwhel And now we're in a conference
Speaker 1: room at the DA's office and Casey's sitting there with
Speaker 1: Ian as his father and Michael Bowman walk in and
Speaker 1: Novak has a one time offer Murder two twenty to life,
Speaker 1: and she goes, I won't go for the hate crime,
Speaker 1: and he gets to choose the prison that he goes
Speaker 1: to and Seever's like, twenty years, what the fuck are
Speaker 1: you talking about? And then she brings up Sandy's mother
Speaker 1: and Ian goes and like, you see the dad's eyes
Speaker 1: widen and he's like, fuck, like this woman, I didn't
Speaker 1: think she'd come back to haunt me. And Ian goes,
Speaker 1: you knew all this time, all these years, and you
Speaker 1: knew and he's like, it's not like that, and Ian goes, yes,
Speaker 1: it is. Dad. I told myself it was okay if
Speaker 1: he thinks gays are sick and freaks, because if he
Speaker 1: he knew about me, and he really knew me, he
Speaker 1: wouldn't say that or think it. And now he realizes
Speaker 1: his dad was purposefully hurting him all these years, and
Speaker 1: who would do that to someone they love? Like, who
Speaker 1: would do that to their son? It's like when people
Speaker 1: are like I love you, I just vote against your interests,
Speaker 1: you know, like I love my gay son, I just
Speaker 1: vote completely against their interests. It's like so fucked up.
Speaker 1: So he goes, how can you think that you could
Speaker 1: make me more straight than I've already tried to make
Speaker 1: myself and he's like, all you've done is make me
Speaker 1: wish I were dead, and then he walks out and
Speaker 1: to Roger, it looks like maybe it's sinking in a
Speaker 1: little bit. And now outside, Casey's talking to Ian outside
Speaker 1: the courthouse on a cute little bench and she's like,
Speaker 1: your dad took the plea and he's sitting there like
Speaker 1: every time somebody walks by, I wonder if they know
Speaker 1: that I'm gay, and he says James always talked about
Speaker 1: loving being gay and said that guys are more fun,
Speaker 1: and Casey's like, I gotta agree, because you know, Casey's
Speaker 1: a little horn dog. And he says everything's different now,
Speaker 1: and Casey apologizes for kind of like outing him before
Speaker 1: he was ready for that to happen, and he goes
Speaker 1: and she says, I'm sorry, and he goes, yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1: And then he walks off, and we hope maybe this
Speaker 1: guy has a good life living in New York as
Speaker 1: an out gay man, and that's dick wolf baby well.
Speaker 2: And hopefully once his dad goes to jail, he can
Speaker 2: take all his dad's money to live in a nice place.
Speaker 2: Fucking yeah, squeeze that asshole for all these worth Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I hope that also that guy going to jail
Speaker 1: just kind of like puts all that research just like
Speaker 1: out the window, Like no one's going to publish a
Speaker 1: guy who's in jail for killing his son's boyfriend.
Speaker 2: I mean, people learn that today on Twitter. It's trending.
Speaker 2: You know, Fauci created, uh created coronavirus all over again,
Speaker 2: and people are like, the studies show it.
Speaker 4: It's like you can find a study to do anything
Speaker 4: you want.
Speaker 1: You quit Twitter? Are you still on there? Seeing what's
Speaker 1: going on? I only go on for White Lotus, got it?
Speaker 1: So you don't have to sign up. I just learned.
Speaker 2: So I just like I right after I watch an
Speaker 2: episode of White Lotus, I just google White Lotus Twitter
Speaker 2: trending and then I just go through all the White
Speaker 2: Lotus tweets. I just want to see all the theories.
Speaker 2: I want to see what I missed. I want to
Speaker 2: see insight there are you know.
Speaker 1: I love the memes, I.
Speaker 4: Love the fun you know, I love community.
Speaker 2: Yeah all right, well I'll take you through, you know
Speaker 2: some info after this break?
Speaker 1: Can't wave.
Speaker 4: Welcome back everybody.
Speaker 2: So this is mostly about Fred Phelps in the Westboro
Speaker 2: Baptist Church. But I just wanted to cover who I
Speaker 2: think the seagull guy was based on a little bit.
Speaker 4: Was Charles W.
Speaker 2: Socarides Socrates. Yeah, who cares? We hate this guy? You know,
Speaker 2: I don't know how to pronounce someone that sex, so Charles,
Speaker 2: it's definitely based on this guy. He Charles was a
Speaker 2: psycho biatrist and psychoanalysts who publicly, for a long ass time,
Speaker 2: even after it was considered scientifically like unacceptable to do so,
Speaker 2: that homosexuality was a condition amenable to treatment and conversion therapy.
Speaker 2: He died in two thousand and five after working as
Speaker 2: a clinical professor of psychiatry for many years at the
Speaker 2: Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx till nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety six. My thing is, I looked up this Albert
Speaker 2: Einstein school and it's ranked like fifty six.
Speaker 1: It's very good. My mom's partner went there, So why
Speaker 1: how is this quack a teacher there? That's a great question.
Speaker 2: Because there was like a smart guy from my high
Speaker 2: school who went there too, and I just always thought
Speaker 2: it was good, ranked well in New York City. And
Speaker 2: then it's like they have this guy who truly thinks
Speaker 2: being gay is a disease, Like, it just doesn't make
Speaker 2: sense to me. Yeah, maybe he had ten here is
Speaker 2: that how it works? Like, I just I don't get it.
Speaker 2: Could be who knows. But he believes that being gay
Speaker 2: is a Eurotic adaptation that in men stems from absent
Speaker 2: fathers and overly doting mothers. So that's like one hundred
Speaker 2: percent from the episode. And he wouldn't just admit he
Speaker 2: was wrong, even after the a PA rescinded its definition
Speaker 2: of homosexuality as a form of mental illness in nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy three. And he did have a child who is
Speaker 2: openly gay and is now a nationally prominent gay rights advocate.
Speaker 2: But he during his life inflicted suffering on the lives
Speaker 2: of gay and lesbian people and anyone in the LGBTQ
Speaker 2: plus community in general.
Speaker 4: So and I guess this was he wasn't religious.
Speaker 2: I don't think so it's not like, well, the Bible
Speaker 2: says this, But I just like that his first three
Speaker 2: marriages to women ended in divorce, and he had a
Speaker 2: fourth wife, Like, yeah, why is being straight so good?
Speaker 4: Like you can't keep a wife? I don't understand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, this guy seems like a piece of shit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: piece of shit. Okay, So we're gonna move on. So
Speaker 1: I just thought I would do a little blurb on
Speaker 1: this guy. I don't if you wanted to know more information,
Speaker 1: go read a book.
Speaker 2: It's not my job. But we're moving on to the
Speaker 2: Westboro Baptist Church. I feel like you guys all know
Speaker 2: about him. So Fred Phelps truly nobody wanted to be
Speaker 2: around this man. Like he died in March of twenty fourteen,
Speaker 2: and all the articles were like he's dead, good riddance, Like,
Speaker 2: as one of the articles wrote, he has very few
Speaker 2: admirable achievements.
Speaker 1: And then one of them was like he was a
Speaker 1: colossal jerk. He's dead, like no one was.
Speaker 2: No one liked this man, as Squire ended an article
Speaker 2: about him after his death that said, only the good
Speaker 2: die young. Fred Phelps was a very old man, so
Speaker 2: very hated individual.
Speaker 1: But he didn't mind. He really didn't mind.
Speaker 2: And he had a quote in My Enemy with the
Speaker 2: Witch's Tall Eagle where he said, if I had nobody
Speaker 2: mad at me, what right would I have to claim
Speaker 2: that I was preaching the gospel? And his whole thing
Speaker 2: was like people were mad at Jesus too, so they
Speaker 2: should be mad at me. Yeah, that's kind of his vibe.
Speaker 2: So he everyone hated him, and he kind of thrived
Speaker 2: off being hated. He was born November thirteenth, nineteen twenty nine,
Speaker 2: in Meridian, Mississippi. And even though the Westboro Baptist Church
Speaker 2: has absolutely no ties to Baptist denomination association at all,
Speaker 2: like they've very much separated themselves, most members disavowed him.
Speaker 2: He was still ordained as a minister in Southern Baptist
Speaker 2: Convention at age seventeen, So I guess you don't need
Speaker 2: much education to become a Baptist minister since this guy
Speaker 2: became truly ordained at seventeen years old. Since nineteen fifty one,
Speaker 2: Phelps has been arrested repeatedly for assaults, battery, threats, trespassing,
Speaker 2: disorderly conduct, and contempt of court. He has been convicted
Speaker 2: four times, so he's served like two thirty day jail
Speaker 2: sentences for disorderly conduct for verbal harassment in nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 2: Do you know about him? Like obviously we all know
Speaker 2: about the church and everything, but.
Speaker 1: Like, yes, you do, No, Actually, like I know about
Speaker 1: him very passively, so I'm interested for you to tell
Speaker 1: me more. But I read a really interesting article about
Speaker 1: one of his granddaughters who used to be part of
Speaker 1: his thing and then has fully left, and it was
Speaker 1: just an interesting thing about her disentangling herself from this
Speaker 1: like horrible, bigoted organization.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we'll definitely touch on that granddaughter, Megan.
Speaker 1: I watched a really cool interview with her, So he
Speaker 1: was I tried.
Speaker 2: There was one documentary, but you had to order a DVD.
Speaker 1: I was streaming.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm not ordering a DVD, and then
Speaker 2: the other doc was like you had to download BBC Player,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, you know what, I guess I'm back
Speaker 2: to reading. So, like I said, he was a deeply
Speaker 2: disagreeable personality. He liked to pick fights with neighbors. He
Speaker 2: had a thirst for notoriety, and he knew how to
Speaker 2: get it. His first little taste of fame was in
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty one when Time magazine profiled his street preaching
Speaker 2: who say It against dirty humor? He did not like
Speaker 2: dirty jokes, and in nineteen fifty two he also got
Speaker 2: a Time right up Like for doing street ministry work
Speaker 2: on college campuses against petting and making out and backseat
Speaker 2: of cars. So I guess he hated hand jobs and
Speaker 2: getting and felt getting felt up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. Don't even get him started on fingering.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you're going straight to hell.
Speaker 2: But he was just obsessed with human sexuality and controlling
Speaker 2: it for truly six decades. And so I'm doing what
Speaker 2: you're not supposed to do. But like, what was this
Speaker 2: man hiding? Like what are you hiding, sir? So up
Speaker 2: in everyone's business. I feel like he's like fucking sheep
Speaker 2: or something, or like eating shit in a dominatrix office
Speaker 2: while while evangel I can't even say the word evangelizing.
Speaker 2: And I went to an evangelical college to say that
Speaker 2: while evangelizing whatever. And you know, one of the worst
Speaker 2: states in America in Arizona. So he was in Phoenix
Speaker 2: and that's where he met Margie Simms and they got
Speaker 2: married in nineteen fifty two, and two years later they
Speaker 2: settled in Topeka, Kansas. He founded the church in nineteen
Speaker 2: fifty five, and he described it as primitive Baptist, so
Speaker 2: whatever that means. To make income during this time, he
Speaker 2: sold vacuum cleaners and baby carriages, so he is like
Speaker 2: a salesman of some sorts and wildly though, he was
Speaker 2: able to get a law degree from Washburne University in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two after attending and getting kicked out and
Speaker 2: having to shuffle around four different colleges and none of
Speaker 2: them seem real. He went to Bob Jones University, that's
Speaker 2: a bowling man, that's a bowling star.
Speaker 4: That's not a college.
Speaker 2: He got kicked out, John Muir univers College, Prairie Bible Institute,
Speaker 2: and Arizona Bible Institute, where he was finally able to
Speaker 2: get a degree.
Speaker 1: So that's his education.
Speaker 2: And so most of the family, they live on the
Speaker 2: family compound and.
Speaker 1: They all kind of.
Speaker 2: Practiced law so and before that, like all thirties, so
Speaker 2: he had thirteen kids, and all thirteen kids had to
Speaker 2: sell candy door to door in the seventies and the
Speaker 2: proceeds were the main income source for the family.
Speaker 4: So he straight I hate when I see this.
Speaker 1: He's straight up as like running up subway basketball kids
Speaker 1: selling em and m's business to support his family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really hurts my soul when I see children
Speaker 2: having to sell things with like parents glaring at them
Speaker 2: from the distance, like it's just not a good way
Speaker 2: to live, and I feel really bad. So these kids
Speaker 2: had to go door to door selling candy. But I personally,
Speaker 2: for just my basketball team, I loved the briefcase of
Speaker 2: chocolate bars I got to sell.
Speaker 4: It was like receis sick. It was like a fun
Speaker 4: ass box.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we would sell airheads in a ziploc bag, but
Speaker 2: when I got that little chocolate briefcase, I did really
Speaker 2: enjoy it.
Speaker 1: I always sold magazine subscriptions in wrapping paper.
Speaker 2: My parents wouldn't see anything. Like my parents wouldn't let
Speaker 2: me participate in things like that.
Speaker 1: It was called the Great Paper Chase and which when
Speaker 1: it was MAGA, when it was magazine subscriptions. I probably
Speaker 1: talked about this on the podcast. But my mom's a
Speaker 1: pediatrician with two offices, so she would just buy a
Speaker 1: ton of subscriptions for magazines at her office. And I
Speaker 1: would always win the limo ride to McDonald's. I want
Speaker 1: to take a limo ride to McDonald's, but like twenty
Speaker 1: of us would win the limo ride to McDonald's. There
Speaker 1: were like twenty of us in the limo. Was like
Speaker 1: the top twenty sellers, Like it wasn't just me. Imagine
Speaker 1: me alone with like a happy meal, well and the
Speaker 1: principle or something. You know, sometimes you get to do
Speaker 1: something like that.
Speaker 4: No, but it is weird that.
Speaker 2: It was like they encourage children to just knock on
Speaker 2: doors and sell wrapping paper, like even after kids were
Speaker 2: put on milk cartons.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did that. I knocked on doors in my neighborhood. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was like, do you want any wrapping paper? And
Speaker 1: then like, we don't even have it on us. They're
Speaker 1: buying it all out of a catalog. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you're not like carrying bins. Yeah, we're like, we'll be
Speaker 1: back to deliver it when it comes in. It's the
Speaker 1: weirdest thing.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, the kids were just out there working like
Speaker 2: Cara Clank and people from their town hated them as well,
Speaker 2: but if they needed to win a case, they would
Speaker 2: still go to them for cases.
Speaker 4: And that was who said that.
Speaker 2: Religious writer Bill Sherman after visiting the town and family,
Speaker 2: and he told that to NPR. So eleven of his
Speaker 2: thirteen children have law degrees. Yeah, and they have this
Speaker 2: law firm and they actually did a lot of civil
Speaker 2: rights cases and stuff like that. But so, yeah, everyone
Speaker 2: in the town is disgusted hates them, but if they
Speaker 2: have to go to court, they go to this family.
Speaker 1: But is it like civil rights, Like I have the
Speaker 1: civil right to not make a cake for a gay
Speaker 1: couple because I don't believe in it.
Speaker 2: Like no, like they truly represented black people when.
Speaker 1: They had issues.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, Yeah, money's money, I think to them, and
Speaker 2: they're latigious.
Speaker 4: They're very litigious.
Speaker 2: We'll get more into like what drives them, but they're
Speaker 2: just like very litigious, that's all I have to say.
Speaker 2: Like they they outside of the selling candy. Like, the
Speaker 2: way this church makes money is suing towns that won't
Speaker 2: let them protest and winning.
Speaker 4: Like they know the laws so well.
Speaker 2: They're kind of geniuses in the law and litigation, and
Speaker 2: so they kind of sue people constantly and win.
Speaker 4: They're terrorized. They're like terrorists.
Speaker 2: So yeah, like I said, so, the family law practice
Speaker 2: pays for the bills for all their travels across the country,
Speaker 2: and they also make money suing the communities that stop
Speaker 2: them from demonstrating. And the children of the Phelps family
Speaker 2: are raised in the church's beliefs and their upbringing offers
Speaker 2: very few changes or like chance, very few chances to
Speaker 2: integrate into mainstream society. They have no friends, Like everyone
Speaker 2: in school kind of hated them. They were outcasts, all
Speaker 2: the children, and they are taught to hold hateful beliefs
Speaker 2: and that anybody not in their church is going to hell.
Speaker 2: And that is that four of the children are estranged
Speaker 2: and nine are still in the church today. One of
Speaker 2: his strange children, Nathan, said that Phelps abused his children
Speaker 2: and his wife and it cultated an atmosphere of fear
Speaker 2: to maintain his authority. And the strange kids have talked
Speaker 2: about being beaten with a mattic handle, which is a
Speaker 2: type of ax. So he was a physically abusive man.
Speaker 2: But it's just this one sunset it. There's not really
Speaker 2: there's not a bunch of information about the abuse within,
Speaker 2: so I don't know.
Speaker 1: And then like Megan, the granddaughter that ended up.
Speaker 2: Escaping, like there, she was quoted saying, like outside of
Speaker 2: all this fucked up shit that they made him do,
Speaker 2: like they did homework together and events and they cooked together,
Speaker 2: and like there, it was weird for her because they
Speaker 2: did good parental or grandfathery things. But then also were
Speaker 2: demons and so it's kind of like hard. So his
Speaker 2: first church service was held November twenty seventh, nineteen fifty five,
Speaker 2: and in nineteen sixty four he founded the law firm
Speaker 2: that I mentioned, Phelps chartered, and it represents the church
Speaker 2: in all of its civil suits. The Kansas Supreme Court, though,
Speaker 2: dispart him in nineteen seventy nine, stating that he showed
Speaker 2: little regard for the ethics of his profession. He's also
Speaker 2: run He tried to run in five Democratic primaries in Kansas,
Speaker 2: but he never won.
Speaker 1: Why Democratic, Well, he hates everyone.
Speaker 2: He like, he hates Ronald Reagan, he hates Republican like
Speaker 2: the he hates everyone. It's not Wow, it's not based
Speaker 2: on Republican Democrat, right wing, left wing.
Speaker 4: Anyone outside the church is going to hell like he does.
Speaker 1: Right, But if anybody's going to vote for somebody like that,
Speaker 1: it's it's Republicans more likely.
Speaker 4: Oh no, you're totally right, am.
Speaker 2: I read somewhere the only two people that he liked
Speaker 2: were Fidel Castro and Saddam Hussein.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, and that once? Is this just like
Speaker 1: a megalomaniac with like probably some serious issue. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's like, well, he was born in nineteen twenty nine,
Speaker 1: isn't that like the depression. Yeah, so he grew up
Speaker 1: starving maybe like he didn't get the nourishment he needed
Speaker 1: for his brain cells to form. Like who fucking knows.
Speaker 2: So we're going now like that's kind of the background
Speaker 2: on him. And now for the Westboro Baptist Church. So
Speaker 2: the website is still active and it's God Hates f
Speaker 2: Words dot com. Like that's the website. You're you are
Speaker 2: not Westborough Baptist Church. And what happens when you go
Speaker 2: to it? Oh, I went to it. I'll yeah, I'll
Speaker 2: you know, I can. I can tell you right now.
Speaker 2: It's on their website.
Speaker 1: It's kicking. They're up to.
Speaker 2: Date, like they have up to date of all the
Speaker 2: latest sermons, some of which are like days ago from
Speaker 2: when we're recording. Like they are uploading YouTube, like they
Speaker 2: are uploading videos and sermons to this day. And they
Speaker 2: have public a public preaching schedule. So if you're free
Speaker 2: in February, they'll be at the T Mobile Center in
Speaker 2: Kansas picketing the juds Bruce Springsteen and Disney on ice.
Speaker 4: So if that's what you'd like to be doing. So,
Speaker 4: Westborough's a.
Speaker 2: Kansas based church that the Southern Law Poverty Center describes
Speaker 2: as a family based cult and arguably the most obnoxious
Speaker 2: and rabid hate group in America. And even so, they
Speaker 2: are socially conservative Christian like right vibes.
Speaker 4: They are not patriots.
Speaker 2: They're on the compound as an upside down American flag.
Speaker 4: They've stomped on the flag.
Speaker 2: So yeah, they hate everyone, not just liberals, like they
Speaker 2: went after Ronald Reagan. They don't give a fuck, they
Speaker 2: really don't. They believe that God is unforgiving, a vengeful
Speaker 2: God poised to destroy a nation of sinners. He began
Speaker 2: his anti gay demonstrations around nineteen ninety one after one
Speaker 2: of his grandsons was propositioned at Topeka Gauge Park. But
Speaker 2: like that sounds gay as fuck. Of course there's some
Speaker 2: propositioning happening. I don't know, like Gauge, I don't know.
Speaker 2: So that's when they started, and then they gained notoriety
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight when it's members picketed at the
Speaker 2: funeral of Matthew Shepherd, who was a twenty one year
Speaker 2: old student at the University of Wyoming who's brutally attacked,
Speaker 2: tied to a fence, and left to die, all because
Speaker 2: he was gay.
Speaker 4: That one of the most horrific crimes in the nation.
Speaker 2: I would say they started protesting at the funerals of
Speaker 2: public figures. Children I'm like killed in bus accidents, soldiers
Speaker 2: killed in war. One time, they were planning on protesting
Speaker 2: at a nine year old's funeral of Christina Green, and
Speaker 2: she was one of the victims. Do you remember the
Speaker 2: shooting in Tucson. It was outside of a supermarket where
Speaker 2: six people died. Another thirteen were wounded, including US Congresswoman
Speaker 2: Gabrielle Gifford's. So they wanted to go protest at this
Speaker 2: nine year old's funeral. So Arizona actually quickly enacted legislation
Speaker 2: to ban protests within three hundred feet of the funeral
Speaker 2: and made it illegal for protesters to be present within
Speaker 2: within an hour of the funeral's start or finish. And
Speaker 2: the church actually decided not to attend and ruin the
Speaker 2: child's funeral because a radio station offered airtime for exchange
Speaker 2: of not going. Because their whole thing is like attention.
Speaker 2: They just want attention. Yeah, fame, fame, fame. They did
Speaker 2: the same thing when five Amish girls were murdered in
Speaker 2: the Pennsylvania schoolhouse in two thousand and six another like that,
Speaker 2: I remember that really shocking my life, life, in the
Speaker 2: life of this country. And it's so fucked up thinking
Speaker 2: how many more shootings have happened since. Like I just
Speaker 2: I just remember that like ruining, ruining my life, like.
Speaker 4: That was so horrific. And now it's like.
Speaker 1: That was just somebody just walked into a schoolhouse and
Speaker 1: killed a bunch of kids. I don't remember this Amish kids. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my god, but they.
Speaker 2: Did the same thing, like they didn't pick it for
Speaker 2: one hour of airtime on a talk show. Shirley Phelps Roper,
Speaker 2: she's actually the daughter and she's in charge of the
Speaker 2: cult today. She was on Hannity and Colmes on Fox
Speaker 2: News on October third, two thousand and six, and she
Speaker 2: said they did deserve to die about the Amish girls.
Speaker 2: Thank you Fox News for giving her a platform. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's actually what I was thinking. It's like I just
Speaker 2: I don't think I was in the know as much
Speaker 2: or maybe Fox News and like Trump and everything has
Speaker 2: changed and made it worse, Like.
Speaker 1: How fuck what the fuck? They've always just been twisted?
Speaker 1: Mm hm.
Speaker 2: You would have someone on talking about how these like
Speaker 2: young girls desert to die.
Speaker 4: It's like sick to me, it's really sick.
Speaker 1: So yeah.
Speaker 2: And then after all of that, the dozens of like
Speaker 2: dozens of states and for the federal government passed laws
Speaker 2: to create buffer areas near the sites of funerals, so
Speaker 2: they kind of like help legislation to leave people alone.
Speaker 2: And a lot of times Fred Phelps would like call
Speaker 2: ahead of time and get all the permits in a
Speaker 2: row to protest at these places, and then it would
Speaker 2: get a media frenzy and then he wouldn't even go
Speaker 2: because he would be offered the radio, like he just
Speaker 2: wanted attention, So sometimes he wouldn't even attend some of these.
Speaker 4: It was just to like.
Speaker 1: Create a storm.
Speaker 2: The Southern Poverty Law Center states that the church claims
Speaker 2: to have picketed more than forty thousand times since they
Speaker 2: started in June nineteen ninety one. Other reports had like
Speaker 2: fifty three thousand. But this is just like off of
Speaker 2: their word and they're truly unhinged. Reportedly, they picketed a
Speaker 2: local restaurant in Topeka, Kansas every day for three years
Speaker 2: because its owner knowingly and Lloyd a lesbian.
Speaker 1: It's so fucked up.
Speaker 2: In twenty eleven, Shirley Philips Roper, the churches spokeswoman, said
Speaker 2: to NPR that the members want to punish Americans for
Speaker 2: tolerating homosexuality. They pick at funerals to make people angry,
Speaker 2: to reject God and be condemned to hell. So they're
Speaker 2: like twisted, like they don't want to save people like
Speaker 2: what we're used to Christians doing. She continues in quotes,
Speaker 2: We're supposed to blind their eyes, stop up their ears,
Speaker 2: and harden their hearts so they cannot see, hear, or
Speaker 2: understand and be converted and receive salvation. One of the
Speaker 2: granddaughters who ended up leaving, Megan Phelps. Roper, said that
Speaker 2: when she was eleven, mother Teresa and Princess Diana died
Speaker 2: in one week, and in their home what.
Speaker 4: Was said was, oh, look, two wars died in one week.
Speaker 2: So like that's how she was raised, Like that's the language,
Speaker 2: and that's how she learned about life. And yeah, like
Speaker 2: they just knew nothing else, but like that's how everything
Speaker 2: was talked about.
Speaker 1: They were celebrating that people were in hell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Megan was asked one time on Reality Check
Speaker 2: with John Avlon, extremist beat on CNN, if there was
Speaker 2: ever any questioning in the house or discussions if this
Speaker 2: was the best way to go about life, and she
Speaker 2: said absolutely not, lol. And I've mentioned this, but she said,
Speaker 2: like success to them was to get attention, and the
Speaker 2: more attention they got meant that the media and people
Speaker 2: and for them, that was evidence for them that God
Speaker 2: made their work prosper So attention was validation that they
Speaker 2: were doing the right thing in the eyes of God.
Speaker 2: And their goal of picketing isn't to win followers, but
Speaker 2: only to warn people of their coming damnation. They believe
Speaker 2: that God does not love everyone. They believe God does
Speaker 2: not preach love, but that he is a vengeful God.
Speaker 2: And they claim that God doesn't just hate the sin,
Speaker 2: but also the sinner, so like truly hateful, because I
Speaker 2: feel like sometimes religious people like hide their bigotry by
Speaker 2: pretending it's love, but these people are not.
Speaker 1: They don't pretend. Yeah, they're just like I'll pray for you, like,
Speaker 1: but they don't, you know, wish you damnation Like these
Speaker 1: people seem to celebrate in people's internal damnation. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And they had a huge win in March of twenty
Speaker 2: eleven in the Supreme Court, where the First Amendment protected
Speaker 2: their right to hold antigay.
Speaker 4: Protests outside the military funerals.
Speaker 2: So even with all the funerals they were protesting and
Speaker 2: the attention that they received, and this like huge victory
Speaker 2: in the Supreme Court. You would think this is like
Speaker 2: a giant enterprise. But the church only had one hundred members.
Speaker 2: There were only one hundred members of this church because
Speaker 2: they're too extreme. They're too extreme to be big, I know.
Speaker 2: And and it's all from the family of one man.
Speaker 2: Like it's mostly all family members or distant families, so
Speaker 2: it's all people related to Fred Phelps. They have no
Speaker 2: friends anywhere, no other Baptists, no far right organizations. They
Speaker 2: are very isolated, very very isolated. They're banned in the
Speaker 2: UK and Canada, and the group neither slit sits nor
Speaker 2: accepts outside donations. Fred died in twenty fourteen and has
Speaker 2: been and like I said, it's been being run by
Speaker 2: his daughter, Shirley Phelps Roper, who is the public face
Speaker 2: of the church with her sister Margie Phelps. No communications
Speaker 2: are allowed with those who leave. The children that have
Speaker 2: left have spoke out about the brainwashing they received from
Speaker 2: a super young age. And again like allegations of physical
Speaker 2: and mental abuse, Megan Phelps Roper. She was Phelps's granddaughter
Speaker 2: and began protesting at funerals when she was nineteen years old.
Speaker 2: She said, their whole life centered around the church, and
Speaker 2: it was mostly family and extended family members, and that's it.
Speaker 2: And she grew up with the mentality of like us
Speaker 2: against the world, and we were good and everyone was bad,
Speaker 2: and we all had to warn them, and that they
Speaker 2: were the only hope that to save these people, if
Speaker 2: they could ever be saved, was this group.
Speaker 1: She said.
Speaker 2: They were also careful to never ever use their personal beliefs,
Speaker 2: like all the signs said God hates and you know,
Speaker 2: it was all about God's standards and his standards of
Speaker 2: living and had nothing to do with them.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like we hate it, We're just like
Speaker 1: God hates this.
Speaker 2: She was appointed to running the Westboro Twitter account and
Speaker 2: that's when she began questioning the church's hateful teaching. So
Speaker 2: that was in two thousand and nine, and so then
Speaker 2: people started asking questions and digging into her theology via Twitter.
Speaker 2: This is like an actual good thing that happened with Twitter,
Speaker 2: and she was able to have her faith shaken. And
Speaker 2: when she started to feel and then she like started
Speaker 2: to feel empathy and then became ashamed of what she
Speaker 2: was doing, and Twitter helped her find internal inconsistencies.
Speaker 4: She actually met her now husband on.
Speaker 2: Twitter and he was one of the people tweeting with
Speaker 2: her to help like change her opinions. And she said
Speaker 2: she was like really shocked because.
Speaker 1: I can't believe Twitter changed somebody's opinion. I know, Like
Speaker 1: I can't believe it happened.
Speaker 2: I know, and like it was just cool because she
Speaker 2: said obviously, like there was so much like fuck you,
Speaker 2: fuck you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was.
Speaker 2: Really shocked because but she was used to that because
Speaker 2: it's us versus the world. And then what shocked her
Speaker 2: was like the empathy she received from people and people
Speaker 2: actually questioning her and being kind and like and her.
Speaker 1: Husband was one of those guys.
Speaker 2: So she left the church in twenty twelve with her
Speaker 2: sister Grace, and they flee to South Dakota. You know, like, girl,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of better states to go to. I'm
Speaker 2: being so mean to these states in.
Speaker 1: This Yeah, you did say something mean about Arizona before,
Speaker 1: and I do want to say that when we were
Speaker 1: at Tempe, Arizona doing a live show, you really enjoyed
Speaker 1: the hotel there.
Speaker 4: I remember, I always have a good time in Arizona.
Speaker 2: I do a joke about this, but like republic Republicans
Speaker 2: who can't afford a boat is embarrassing to me, like
Speaker 2: to be landlocked Republicans and they're all swingers. I don't know,
Speaker 2: Like I just do funny jokes about Arizona. It's fine, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: But South Dakota truly like no comics go, check schedules,
Speaker 2: no comics go, and no musicians, no one.
Speaker 1: They don't have anything out.
Speaker 2: I don't even know if they have an art museum
Speaker 2: outside of the Mount Rushmore, which is like a disgusting thing,
Speaker 2: you know, like if you have fun things to do
Speaker 2: in South Dakota, let me know.
Speaker 4: My sister went with, you know once.
Speaker 2: So the next month, like after her and her sister
Speaker 2: Grace left, was the Sandy Hook massacre and Westboro announced
Speaker 2: it would protest the memorials, and she said she remembers
Speaker 2: feeling relief like not having to be there, and then
Speaker 2: she felt distressed over the amount of time she had
Speaker 2: done the exact same thing. And since she left, there's
Speaker 2: an understanding that even if her family sees her in
Speaker 2: public there should be absolutely no interaction at all, and
Speaker 2: they pretend not to see her, but she still tries
Speaker 2: to reach out to them because there's nothing to lose
Speaker 2: on her end, Like, she still doesn't get to see
Speaker 2: them anyways, So she sends birthday gifts and letters and
Speaker 2: does public interviews and hopes that they'll see her and
Speaker 2: like learn something new and be able to leave. But
Speaker 2: now she has a daughter and she's married to this dude,
Speaker 2: and she is still in South Dakota, but she really
Speaker 2: misses her family, and she doesn't think that she's special,
Speaker 2: and she hopes and believes in their family and like
Speaker 2: the family's ability to change, because she's just like them
Speaker 2: and that I really like too, Like she just was
Speaker 2: like I was with them, I was brainwashed. I did it,
Speaker 2: and I was able to see the light. So she
Speaker 2: kind of has hope that one day they can all
Speaker 2: learn something and get out of there. So I watched
Speaker 2: an interview when she wrote her book in like twenty sixteen, seventeen,
Speaker 2: and she ended up thanking this guy John for writing
Speaker 2: this big article in twenty thirteen because she said she
Speaker 2: had never she didn't know people were going to be
Speaker 2: empathetic to her and like having that article be written
Speaker 2: about her in such a kind and like hopeful manner
Speaker 2: changed her whole perspective on the world, and like having
Speaker 2: all the comments and support really helped her, and she
Speaker 2: was quote in twenty thirteen. We were told a lot
Speaker 2: of things that weren't true, and we assume they were
Speaker 2: true because we didn't see any evidence otherwise, but we
Speaker 2: weren't really looking. And that really stuck with me because
Speaker 2: it made me think about like the George Floyd protests.
Speaker 1: And like.
Speaker 2: The Biela movement and just like being someone that felt like,
Speaker 2: why wasn't I taught this in school? And then a
Speaker 2: friend of mine tweeted, like you knew you were being
Speaker 2: taught the truth and you didn't go look for it,
Speaker 2: And I just remember being like, yeah, I guess I
Speaker 2: never searched for the truth, and I never educated myself
Speaker 2: more on like civil rights and black history in America
Speaker 2: and like not knowing these things.
Speaker 1: So sometimes we can blame school systems or what.
Speaker 2: We're given, or the media or anything, but we have
Speaker 2: to remember, like if you're not looking for the truth
Speaker 2: or trying to expand your mind, that you can be
Speaker 2: stuck in some regressive, bad things and to just like
Speaker 2: always be on the lookout to change your mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's bad.
Speaker 2: So hopefully, I mean they were a group with a
Speaker 2: lot of notoriety, So hopefully you guys learned something new
Speaker 2: or learned deeper shit about these people.
Speaker 1: But if not, I hope you hate South Dakota. I
Speaker 1: don't know what to tell you. Ah, And we have
Speaker 1: gad she got out. I really did like that article
Speaker 1: talking to her, like it was like there's possibilities. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you just think some of these people are beyond hope
Speaker 1: and like there is possibility of like getting them out.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's just like hurts my heart knowing like
Speaker 2: her mom and aunts and these people that raised her
Speaker 2: are just like fuck her bye, You're dead to me now.
Speaker 2: And there's interviews with the mom there's like them like
Speaker 2: prota and she like they just don't give a fuck
Speaker 2: about the people that leave.
Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, Well we've got a great interview that's
Speaker 1: going to cleanse this palette perfectly, So don't go anywhere, Okay.
Speaker 1: Our guest today is an actor who's been a fixture
Speaker 1: on your TV for over thirty years. You know him
Speaker 1: for his roles in Spin City. R Less China Beach
Speaker 1: and The Good Fight But Today and many other episodes
Speaker 1: of SVU, you know him as the snappy defense attorney Dave.
Speaker 1: Sever guys, enjoy our conversation that we enjoyed so much
Speaker 1: with the amazing Michael Bowtman.
Speaker 4: Congrats on such an amazing career.
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 4: I feel like you've killed it or what you know.
Speaker 6: That's a great question. I have to say. I'm one
Speaker 6: of those people that surprise surprise. I'm an actor. I'm
Speaker 6: a little neurotic. I'm a little not paranoid necessarily, but
Speaker 6: I'm definitely always sort of looking for the next, you know,
Speaker 6: the next hill to climb, if you will.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: So every once in a while when someone comes up
Speaker 6: to me and says, as this is what happened to
Speaker 6: me just last night. I watched your show all the
Speaker 6: way from kindergarten to and this is an adult person
Speaker 6: talking to me, and she was talking about China Beach,
Speaker 6: which was a show I was on at the very
Speaker 6: beginning of my career in nineteen eighty eight. And this
Speaker 6: is like an industry professional person who's an adult with kids,
Speaker 6: and I was just like, wow, really, I still feel
Speaker 6: like I'm eighteen years old. I don't, you know, totally
Speaker 6: And then I look back and then I go, wow,
Speaker 6: I guess you know, I've been around for a while.
Speaker 6: But listen, it makes I'm so grateful and happy to
Speaker 6: still be here and I'm one of those fortunate people
Speaker 6: I get to do something I love. As the joke goes,
Speaker 6: I would do this for free and they pay me.
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, so, wait, where do people recognize
Speaker 2: you the most from when they approach you?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 4: You know what.
Speaker 6: As time goes on, it changes. Of course, when China
Speaker 6: Beach was on, it was that. When SPA, when Spin
Speaker 6: City was on, it was that a lot. That was
Speaker 6: the biggest one for a long time because I had
Speaker 6: a larger audience and it was on for six seasons.
Speaker 6: But then I was also on a show called Arlists
Speaker 6: at the same time, and so, but that was a
Speaker 6: more specific audience.
Speaker 4: It was guys, how did you do that?
Speaker 1: At the same time, I.
Speaker 6: Had an unbelievable agent, Bob Gersh, thank you very much,
Speaker 6: who just sort of juggled it in a way that
Speaker 6: made it kind of and he was really smart because
Speaker 6: what happened was they actually shot it two separate times
Speaker 6: of the year. So spin City shot from the fall
Speaker 6: and to the spring, and then Arlest shot over the
Speaker 6: summer months. So that was because initially they were they
Speaker 6: weren't sure they would be able to make it work.
Speaker 6: But when they realized that, you know, I'd basically be
Speaker 6: sitting all summer unemployed if I didn't do it.
Speaker 5: And you're like, oh, well, that makes sense.
Speaker 6: So it's just a really great piece of agenting work
Speaker 6: and good fortune on my part.
Speaker 2: Wait, but for China Beach that did you meet Neil Bear?
Speaker 2: And did that have anything to do with SVU?
Speaker 5: No? You know what's crazy?
Speaker 6: And all I want to say, maybe I think I
Speaker 6: might have spoken to Neil once in all of these years,
Speaker 6: like on the phone, Like maybe at the very beginning
Speaker 6: when I started SVU back in Oh god, you know.
Speaker 1: You started around three.
Speaker 5: That well that makes sense.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I feel like maybe he maybe he sent
Speaker 6: a message or I I just remember some distant conversation
Speaker 6: with him. And then every time I was on the show,
Speaker 6: I'd go, where's Neil Bear? Where's Neil Bear?
Speaker 5: Never?
Speaker 6: And I never I haven't laid eyes on the guys.
Speaker 1: Crazy.
Speaker 6: It's crazy, it really is. I'm like you know, I
Speaker 6: got this great job. I love this. I just started
Speaker 6: up again on the new the new old Law and Order. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you know, playing the same character. And it's you know,
Speaker 6: it's like, thank you Neil Bear. You know, I've never
Speaker 6: been able to speak to him. Every episode I watch,
Speaker 6: I go it's the straight craziest thing in.
Speaker 1: Our podcast a couple of times. And maybe if he
Speaker 1: comes back on, we'll be like, Michael Bowman wants to
Speaker 1: talk to you.
Speaker 5: Please get us, get us together.
Speaker 6: And you know what, both those shows, well, all of
Speaker 6: those shows, all of the Dick Wolf shows, there's such
Speaker 6: a sort of a big They're just all part of
Speaker 6: such a huge machine. It's sort of hard to just
Speaker 6: like pin down one moving part of it just because
Speaker 6: you happen to be on the set, you know what
Speaker 6: I mean.
Speaker 5: There's so much going on so well.
Speaker 1: So if it wasn't through Neil bhar how did your
Speaker 1: Dick Wolf journey begin? How did you start in the
Speaker 1: Dick Wolf universe?
Speaker 6: So I got a call, Wow, that's such a great question.
Speaker 6: I did I did? I think it was Law and
Speaker 6: Order first. So spin City ended in two thousand, Arlest
Speaker 6: ended in two thousand and one, so around that time. Actually,
Speaker 6: while we were still while Spin City was still happening,
Speaker 6: they started this convention on SVU where they wanted sort
Speaker 6: of a recurring stable of defense attorneys. So Barry Bostwick
Speaker 6: I think, was the first of us on spin City
Speaker 6: to you know, to to sort of get called. And
Speaker 6: I remember him telling me before before they ever came
Speaker 6: to me to offer me the part of Dave sever
Speaker 6: he said, yeah, I guess they're looking for some just regular,
Speaker 6: you know actors, you know, familiar actors to play these
Speaker 6: sort of to come in and out. And I went, oh,
Speaker 6: that's cool. And then literally like two days later, I
Speaker 6: got a call, Hey, do you want to come on,
Speaker 6: you know, play this character. Yeah, And now, of course
Speaker 6: no actor ever thinks you know, my god, ten twelve thirteen.
Speaker 6: I think you know, years later, you know that you
Speaker 6: are kind of playing the same part, but that the
Speaker 6: world has expanded in so many ways.
Speaker 5: You know that that you can sort.
Speaker 6: Of become I mean, yeah, a recurring character, but over
Speaker 6: I mean literally now almost decades.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think I think he's so memorable too.
Speaker 2: You were really funny, You're the funniest defensive Maybe Susie
Speaker 2: Esmond too, But like, as far as all the attorneys,
Speaker 2: you really have all the fun You're like kind of sassy.
Speaker 6: Like I've never been called sassy, and really I love it.
Speaker 5: I kind of love it.
Speaker 4: I wrote.
Speaker 2: I wrote funny, sassy, honest, self aware, and flirty.
Speaker 4: That's what I wrote about David.
Speaker 6: You know what, now that I think about it, that
Speaker 6: all of those have sort of been called for.
Speaker 5: It's kind of crazy.
Speaker 6: I have defended or prosecuted at one point or another,
Speaker 6: some actors and actresses that have gone on.
Speaker 5: I think I represented Zoe Saldana.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not her her dad, but yeah, did you know
Speaker 1: she would be in billionaire franchise movies?
Speaker 5: Of course not. You know, it's like, you know, pretty
Speaker 5: girl young I think she was.
Speaker 6: I don't know how old she was, or in her
Speaker 6: early twenties maybe, And then I, oh, god, who was
Speaker 6: the Paula Paula?
Speaker 1: Well, that's who you are really flirting with, Paula Patten
Speaker 1: and wet.
Speaker 5: And you know what, I never Wow, you're good.
Speaker 6: I never ever saw that episode, and I always wondered
Speaker 6: if that if that impression came off, because you know,
Speaker 6: it didn't call for it necessarily in the script. But
Speaker 6: I'm the kind of actor where you know, if if
Speaker 6: you give me a little, if you give me a leash,
Speaker 6: I'll take it.
Speaker 5: I'll run with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you should watch that one because it's a silly
Speaker 2: episode like Bensony. It's mushrooms on accident and gets high
Speaker 2: like it's a silly one.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, yeah, okay, I have to see it.
Speaker 5: I always wonder and.
Speaker 1: Like Paula Patten is very beautiful and it feels like
Speaker 1: you're not the only man in the episode that is flirting.
Speaker 1: Oh you know, like pretty much every man that encounters
Speaker 1: her is like hello.
Speaker 5: But that's hilarious.
Speaker 1: But in that episode. We actually just cover that episode
Speaker 1: at one of our live shows that we do, and
Speaker 1: you have such a funny moment because the actor Dave
Speaker 1: Crumholtz fires you like you're not in that episode for
Speaker 1: too too long, because he fires you really quickly, and
Speaker 1: then you walk out and you go big mistake, and
Speaker 1: it's like a very pretty woman moment. It's like big mistake, huge,
Speaker 1: and we love it.
Speaker 5: Oh that's funny.
Speaker 1: So I literally for our live show. For our live
Speaker 1: show recently, I literally just took a picture of your
Speaker 1: face and I super imposed it on Julia Roberts from
Speaker 1: that scene and pretty woman. Yeah, and I wish I
Speaker 1: could show it to you right now, but I just
Speaker 1: don't have any right.
Speaker 5: Wait, how is it that? How do you do a
Speaker 5: live show this way? This is hilarious, but we have
Speaker 5: power points?
Speaker 1: But yeah, we do a power point. So I was like,
Speaker 1: we were joking about how you had this pretty woman moment,
Speaker 1: and so I took a photo of your face and
Speaker 1: I put it on jewel and I don't know how
Speaker 1: to do photoshop at all, So it's like a very
Speaker 1: crude square picture of your head just splatter on her.
Speaker 1: You know, that's.
Speaker 6: Hilarious, A pretty woman moment? Oh my god?
Speaker 4: How is Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna be like, how's
Speaker 1: Barry boss Wick?
Speaker 5: Love that man, love that man?
Speaker 6: Emailed or texted with him, I don't know, back in
Speaker 6: the summer, just hey, how's it going? And you know
Speaker 6: he's in La now. He went back to LA with
Speaker 6: his family and he's he's he's very Bostwick here. You know,
Speaker 6: the one of the craziest moments of another crazy moment
Speaker 6: of just synchronicity and weirdness that didn't necessarily happen because
Speaker 6: of SVU, but It was all while we were both
Speaker 6: had you know, by now we're sort of both back
Speaker 6: and forth in a little bit.
Speaker 5: I think maybe i'd done it once or twice and
Speaker 5: Bostwick had done it once. At one point we were
Speaker 5: where were we We were on a lunch break or something,
Speaker 5: if I recall, and it was around Halloween. Now we
Speaker 5: all had a green room on the set of Spin City.
Speaker 5: We were all, you know, we and most of us
Speaker 5: ate together.
Speaker 6: Mike Fox would come in sometimes and we'd all play
Speaker 6: ping pong or whatever. Just shoot the shoot the crab,
Speaker 6: Connie Britton, you know, Jennifer Esposito, just everybody who was on.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you know this, but Jennifer Esposito
Speaker 2: ends up. She ends up with iced tea in Sbu.
Speaker 2: There they get married, Yeah, they get there, they don't
Speaker 2: get married. They have a wedding, and then they don't
Speaker 2: get married. Yeah kidding.
Speaker 5: I never saw that. I have to look that up.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 6: But the surreal Bostwick moment. Bosswick would come by. Barry
Speaker 6: has a scathing sense of humor. I mean he he
Speaker 6: can just cut you down.
Speaker 5: With a look. I mean, he's an enormous, handsome man.
Speaker 5: He's six foot four, you know, he walks in.
Speaker 6: He's one of the only men other than maybe George
Speaker 6: Clooney or is that I've seen who You walk down
Speaker 6: the street with Barry Boswick and the women all and
Speaker 6: some men just sort of they swoon. I mean, he's
Speaker 6: this impressive guy, so completely completely Coincidentally, we're at lunch
Speaker 6: one day. Bostwick's nowhere to be seen. He's up being
Speaker 6: doing Barry Bostwick stuff, being a legend, me, Alan Ruck,
Speaker 6: Connie Britton, I think, probably Esposito, Alexander Chaplin. We're all
Speaker 6: in the in the green room and Rocky Horror Picture
Speaker 6: shows on. So we're watching Rocky Horror Picture Show. It's
Speaker 6: so great, oh you know, and we're having fun and
Speaker 6: the people who know all the responses, yeah, bitch, you know,
Speaker 6: we're all doing that. Barry Bostwick walks into the room. Okay,
Speaker 6: now this is all just an accident. Bostwick walks into
Speaker 6: the room and he goes, oh, you guys are watching that,
Speaker 6: and he turns around and walks away, and we all go, no,
Speaker 6: come in, come in.
Speaker 5: You know, it's so fun, so much fun. Well, we
Speaker 5: start watching this thing and then something unbelievable happens. The
Speaker 5: time warp number comes up, we get up, and then
Speaker 5: Barry Bostwick gets up and we're doing the time warp
Speaker 5: Brad and watching Brad on the screen. And at that point,
Speaker 5: I literally thought the universe was going to like swirl
Speaker 5: down some kind of a drain and we were going
Speaker 5: to pop into a whole other universe. And it was
Speaker 5: one of the most surreal, crazy moments of my career.
Speaker 5: And he remembered all the steps, you know, do this
Speaker 5: step in the you.
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, that is so funny.
Speaker 6: I think when you work with shows, you work on
Speaker 6: shows like that, that that. I think it's also a
Speaker 6: function of being a New York actor.
Speaker 5: You work with you know.
Speaker 6: The group of people I work with on SVU, you know,
Speaker 6: it's unbelievable.
Speaker 5: You know, everybody wants to be on these shows.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So then this was your first episode Abomination, and
Speaker 1: I know it was like a long time ago and
Speaker 1: you've done so much, but like, do you have memories
Speaker 1: of doing this very first episode? Like, you know, you
Speaker 1: show up on the scene, you immediately start sassing Novak
Speaker 1: and then you have like you have a you kind
Speaker 1: of you have a lot of court time in this.
Speaker 5: Like, who was the who was I defending?
Speaker 1: You were defending the father of the guy who this
Speaker 1: father saw his son having sex with a man and
Speaker 1: thought that the man was raping him, so he killed him.
Speaker 1: The legend.
Speaker 6: Wow, wow, that that blows my mind. Yeah I didn't.
Speaker 6: I didn't actually remember that, but I do remember now
Speaker 6: as you as you're saying, it's standing there, and it's
Speaker 6: another one of those moments, Oh my god, it's George Siegel.
Speaker 6: What am I doing here?
Speaker 2: Who?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm a little goofy kid from Chicago who read
Speaker 6: you grew up reading comic books, and now I'm here, you.
Speaker 5: Know, with George Siegel. And yeah, he couldn't have been sweeter,
Speaker 5: couldn't have been funnier and more gracious, you know. And
Speaker 5: it was one of those moments where and I'd experienced
Speaker 5: this a little on China Beach at that point. Oh no, no, no,
Speaker 5: Spin City, I'm getting my entire career mixed up. Of course,
Speaker 5: we you know, had big stars, and but he was.
Speaker 5: He's an actor. For me. There are wonderful movie stars
Speaker 5: and television stars, and there are really great actors, you know,
Speaker 5: who are also those things. And he was one of
Speaker 5: those you know yea to this. I love watching actors.
Speaker 6: I will forget my own line sometimes in scenes with people.
Speaker 6: With Christine Baranski on the show I was recently on it.
Speaker 6: There's been times where I've just been like, boatman, it's
Speaker 6: your line. Oh, you're so good.
Speaker 1: She I would be so distracted. She's just like in
Speaker 1: my top Like, I love her so much. I don't
Speaker 1: know how I could focus.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm gonna shift it into a full different thing.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you know this, but you're in
Speaker 2: two incest episodes. Yeah, you were in Families and Bombshell.
Speaker 2: The one was like Twins. It was Rose McGowan and
Speaker 2: the Hawkeye from Sons of Anarchy.
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 2: Another one was like a young Man and Jane Seymour
Speaker 2: was in it. But I was just wondering when you
Speaker 2: read those episodes or you like, what like, do you
Speaker 2: remember reading for the first time some of the more
Speaker 2: kind of wild episodes of SVU and Yeah, I was
Speaker 2: just wondering if you read them, if you're ever like.
Speaker 6: Geez I am, I'm a writer as well.
Speaker 5: I love I write horror.
Speaker 6: I write sort of dark science fiction, so I'm a
Speaker 6: horror guy.
Speaker 5: I love horror.
Speaker 6: But I like monsters, I like frank I like Dracula,
Speaker 6: I like vampires, serial my.
Speaker 1: Husband all this stuff that you like, sexual sadists.
Speaker 6: It's it's it was a little too real, you know,
Speaker 6: for me at that time, and I frankly remember thinking, Oh,
Speaker 6: that show's never gonna last. Oh no way. Society is
Speaker 6: not ready to know that people do that stuff. I mean,
Speaker 6: And now, of course here we are in season eleven
Speaker 6: hundred or whatever, twenty four.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, that's so funny because my husband is like you,
Speaker 1: he's a horror person, and he when he like over
Speaker 1: watches me see Ansvu, He's like, this is more horrific
Speaker 1: than anything I watch. He's like, how do you watch this?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know. How do you watch
Speaker 1: like a chainsaw guy kill a bunch of people? I
Speaker 1: don't know, Like, but you know, it's like, we have
Speaker 1: different versions of horror.
Speaker 5: I guess all of us. It's definitely true.
Speaker 6: And in those instances, you know that kind of horror
Speaker 6: is ridiculous a guy with a chainsaw, or it's a
Speaker 6: vampire or you know what I mean, there's some part
Speaker 6: of you that knows. And in my case, for instance, zombies.
Speaker 6: I love any of the Night of the Living Dead stuff,
Speaker 6: all of that stuff. This show, though, I literally remember,
Speaker 6: even before being on the show, watching the first few
Speaker 6: episodes and just being like, I can't believe this is
Speaker 6: gonna they're letting this stuff on the air. I can't
Speaker 6: believe they're even talking about this subject.
Speaker 2: We but you touched on something that I actually wanted
Speaker 2: to talk about about, like the difference between being a
Speaker 2: guest star and being.
Speaker 4: A regular on a show.
Speaker 2: Have you had any like guest star horror stories or
Speaker 2: from that, have you learned how to treat guest stars
Speaker 2: differently than maybe you would have and kind of whatever
Speaker 2: you want to talk about that subject.
Speaker 6: Uh, you know what, It's interesting there is a strange
Speaker 6: cast system. As you know, every I've been so fortunate
Speaker 6: every show that I've been a regular on, everybody's been great,
Speaker 6: and it's extended to it's sort of goodwill or now
Speaker 6: I guess they would call it sort of paying it forward.
Speaker 6: But yeah, you want to make the guest stars feel
Speaker 6: at home, because if you I mean all the actors
Speaker 6: that I respect, for instance, I mean all the guys
Speaker 6: I worked with on Spen City, we had all been
Speaker 6: Richard Kind and you know, all of us at Alan Ruck,
Speaker 6: and we had all been in enough jobs before that
Speaker 6: to have been in that position to be a guest star,
Speaker 6: you know what I mean. And so people literally, people
Speaker 6: like Jennifer Garner, you know, years later, would come up
Speaker 6: to you on the street and I just know this
Speaker 6: person is Jennifer Garner, for instance, and she'd say, well,
Speaker 6: I played the girlfriend of so and so in season three,
Speaker 6: and I'm like, oh my god, of course you did.
Speaker 5: Wow. You guys were so nice to me. You guys
Speaker 5: couldn't have been sweeter. I felt you made me feel comfortable.
Speaker 6: That hearing that always makes me feel great because it's how, yeah,
Speaker 6: it's how I would want to be treated. And the
Speaker 6: folks on SPU were always Chris Maloney immediately, because I
Speaker 6: was a little I was a little afraid of him
Speaker 6: before I met him. It was a little afraid of
Speaker 6: that guy he looks like, because he looked in his
Speaker 6: presentation and on the show, he looked like the kind
Speaker 6: of guy that used to chase me home from school
Speaker 6: and steal my lunch when I was a kid, back
Speaker 6: to Chicago, and I immediately saw him and the muscles
Speaker 6: and and and you know, he just he he. I
Speaker 6: think he had seen he liked me on Spin City,
Speaker 6: or maybe he was a China Beach fan, I don't remember,
Speaker 6: but whatever, the first time in that first episode I
Speaker 6: walked out, he couldn't have been funnier and greater, and
Speaker 6: Marishka was really really sweet, so and everyone else that
Speaker 6: I had. So it seems to be a thing, especially
Speaker 6: I think especially in New York, because there's just sort
Speaker 6: of a huge circulating round of people that you kind
Speaker 6: of worked with over and over again, different, you know. So, yeah,
Speaker 6: it's I think it's important to make the guests feel
Speaker 6: great because you're you're really coming into sort of a
Speaker 6: home environment, almost almost a family environment, where you know,
Speaker 6: everybody's got their little private jokes and bits and stuff
Speaker 6: and yeah, you know, so, yeah, it's I've been very
Speaker 6: fortunate in that way, and this show was absolutely the
Speaker 6: same thing.
Speaker 1: Well that's good because we hear Maloney can be a
Speaker 1: little stand offish, so I think maybe he liked you
Speaker 1: from stuff he'd seen you in, so you got the
Speaker 1: good treatment. Well, I was going to ask you before
Speaker 1: because you were talking about like being on these all
Speaker 1: these different sets for law and Order and stuff, but
Speaker 1: like you hadn't really been on you hadn't been on
Speaker 1: it for a while, and then now you're back on
Speaker 1: original recipe The Rebooths season twenty two. How does it
Speaker 1: feel any different? Because it's been like a little while
Speaker 1: since you've been in a courtroom as Dave sever It.
Speaker 6: Had been so long that I was surprised they wanted
Speaker 6: me to come back as the same character. I thought, maybe, oh,
Speaker 6: maybe it's a chance to kind of No. When I
Speaker 6: got there, they had I think it had been nine
Speaker 6: years or maybe more between my last appearance and this recent.
Speaker 2: He'sn't eleven is wet and bombshell. So yeah, ten years.
Speaker 5: Oh my god. They had all my old suits, which
Speaker 5: was hilarious, and they really.
Speaker 1: Hope you haven't gained any weight at all.
Speaker 5: Well yeah, unfortunately, Well some of them listen.
Speaker 6: I'm one of those people who my weight goes up
Speaker 6: and down depending on my mood. Yeah, and so, but
Speaker 6: now I couldn't fit anything. So I did a very
Speaker 6: extensive fitting, which is always encouraging for an actor because
Speaker 6: you go, oh, okay, maybe they'll have me back.
Speaker 1: Also, styles have changed in ten years. I can't just
Speaker 1: throw you back in those old suits come up.
Speaker 6: Oh absolutely as great as great and timeless as this
Speaker 6: show is and the Mothership, and yeah, you look at
Speaker 6: some of those old episodes, you know, Chris Chris Note
Speaker 6: in those suits, You're like, oh, wow, wow, that lapel
Speaker 6: is really and I'm not even a fashion guy, but yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: it actually can get a little uncomfortable, like what is Wow,
Speaker 6: those are bad suits, I mean bad timing wise.
Speaker 5: Right, I'm sure they were top quality at the time
Speaker 5: for sure.
Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, they do have good costume people. So I
Speaker 1: mean they just had you on season whatever it is,
Speaker 1: twenty two of Long Order, the reboot. I mean that
Speaker 1: that means to me that the SVU door is always open.
Speaker 1: They can have you back any day.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'm ready for it. There I am, baby,
Speaker 5: I am. I love it.
Speaker 2: And your character was never mean to the victims, because
Speaker 2: that's why like Barry Bosswick, you know, he's on the
Speaker 2: edge of likability.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, Oliver Gates is.
Speaker 2: Not always that mind and some like bully these victims
Speaker 2: and you're got yeah, like the do you think, yeah
Speaker 2: Oliver Gates, Right, yeah, he's not one of he's not
Speaker 2: the worst, like he's.
Speaker 1: Got high I mean, I think people pay money for
Speaker 1: for Dave sever but people pay like huge bucks for
Speaker 1: Oliver Gates, and so he has like, yeah, he's unscrupulous,
Speaker 1: you know, he'll he'll just go after whoever.
Speaker 4: Do you watch a lot of stuff you're in.
Speaker 6: No, not not typically, not that I I'm really critical
Speaker 6: of myself, but not in a bad way. I just go, ah,
Speaker 6: you could have done that better. All that worked out
Speaker 6: pretty well. I mean, so typically I don't watch if
Speaker 6: anyone's around when people are, you know, because it's you know,
Speaker 6: it's a different experience. I mean, I'm watching it for
Speaker 6: tips of how to do something better, you know what
Speaker 6: i mean, and they're watching it sort of like like
Speaker 6: I was with Barry Bostwick.
Speaker 5: It's very Bostwick and that's very Bostwick at the same time.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so yeah, I mean, but like I said, I
Speaker 6: haven't seen a lot of things, and even even my
Speaker 6: last show, The Good Fight, I just I didn't.
Speaker 5: It's not that, you know what it is. I'm also
Speaker 5: I I'm obsessed by YouTube.
Speaker 6: YouTube. YouTube blows. YouTube is Mankind's greatest invention. If I'm
Speaker 6: looking at a screen these days, I'm looking look at
Speaker 6: something on YouTube. I'm learning how to do something. And
Speaker 6: you know I'm a UFO person. I must Yes, I got.
Speaker 1: In UFO footage. That's where it is.
Speaker 5: Get that beautiful flying saucer footage.
Speaker 1: So no, I just today this morning, one of my kids,
Speaker 1: you're a dad. One of my kids locked the door
Speaker 1: to the bathroom and then shut it. So and I
Speaker 1: didn't know how to open it. And I youtubed a solution.
Speaker 1: Within two seconds, I had it back open. So something
Speaker 1: was really helpful.
Speaker 5: It really is, it really is.
Speaker 6: So I guess I say all that to say I
Speaker 6: don't watch a lot of scripted content. Uh, and I'm
Speaker 6: going to say something weird. Does anyone ever tell you
Speaker 6: that you you look like Sarah Steele?
Speaker 2: I wrote that on one of the questions I go,
Speaker 2: I get told I look like Sarah Steele?
Speaker 4: What do you feel since you.
Speaker 1: Were wait, who is that?
Speaker 2: She was the little girl in uh spanglish? But she
Speaker 2: was in the Good Fight.
Speaker 6: Yeah, she's a fantastic, fantastical Google you could be fan.
Speaker 2: Of her because she was an episod of girls and.
Speaker 1: To like this girl.
Speaker 6: Yeah, when when when you guys first popped on remember
Speaker 6: at the beginning of this in this meeting, when and
Speaker 6: I just heard your voices when you popped on. At
Speaker 6: first I thought I was being punked. I was like, Sarah, really,
Speaker 6: but yeah, you guys you you you you might have
Speaker 6: You're like a secret twin out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love her that when someone said that, because
Speaker 2: sometimes when people say you look clicks or whatever, you
Speaker 2: never know what's going to come out of their mouth.
Speaker 2: And when I heard that, I go love that. I'll
Speaker 2: take that, thank you very much.
Speaker 6: I've had as actually from SVU. Someone came up to
Speaker 6: me once and said, hey, you're the lawyer on SVU
Speaker 6: and I said, one of them Tuba get in June.
Speaker 6: You're right, No, no, uh, hey you're the lawyer from SVU. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I'm one of them for sure. Hoody from Hoody in
Speaker 6: the Blowfish, I love your music, man, I swear to god.
Speaker 1: People are wild. They think Hoody was in a.
Speaker 5: S v you God, Hey, you know, I don't know
Speaker 5: what to tell you. I've had people.
Speaker 6: I've had people come up to me and request a song.
Speaker 6: Come on, say just a little, one little, just a
Speaker 6: snatch of song for my daughter. Dude, I'm not I'm.
Speaker 1: Not that so funny, Oh my god.
Speaker 5: And that they have appeared on svu huh and.
Speaker 2: If it was the guy from Hoody and the Blowfish, like,
Speaker 2: why would you want to sing to you right now?
Speaker 5: Of course?
Speaker 1: Are you? Are you back in New York still? Do
Speaker 1: you still? Do you work out of New York?
Speaker 5: Oh? Yeah, yeah I live here. I live in New York.
Speaker 5: I love it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, guys, I would come back anytime. This has been
Speaker 6: so much fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, I feel like we had like twenty thousand
Speaker 1: more questions to ask you, but because yourself so many stories, No,
Speaker 1: this was incredible.
Speaker 5: Yeah, anytime.
Speaker 6: Look, you know I love doing I love I love
Speaker 6: the show, and I love doing this.
Speaker 5: So I'm thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Cool to see someone so talented and great just like
Speaker 2: work for so long and enjoy their work.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for doing it. If you
Speaker 1: will have you back on with Diane, we'll do like
Speaker 1: a fireside chat all of us.
Speaker 5: Why. I would love that. I would love that. I
Speaker 5: love that woman.
Speaker 1: We will definitely tell Center your regards. Oh yeah, do
Speaker 1: you want to plug anything coming up? Or I don't
Speaker 1: know if that movie is like still under wraps, but
Speaker 1: do you have anything now that people should check out?
Speaker 6: I you know what I've got I've got a short
Speaker 6: story that I just that was just sold to it
Speaker 6: and I'm trying to sort of plug my writing work
Speaker 6: a lot these days because people are reading, but they're
Speaker 6: reading online. It's sort of Yeah, there's an anthology of
Speaker 6: short stories called Dominion Stories from the African Diaspora and
Speaker 6: it's science fiction, fantasy and horror stories from from African
Speaker 6: American and African and Afro Caribbean actors all over the world.
Speaker 6: And it's on Amazon. You can find It's a great book.
Speaker 6: It's been nominated for some you know, literary awards, and
Speaker 6: I have a short story there though.
Speaker 1: Oh cool, we'll put a link to it in our
Speaker 1: show notes.
Speaker 5: Also awesome, thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my cousin writes a lot of shorts and horror
Speaker 1: shorts and stuff, and like, I know how hard that is,
Speaker 1: like getting that stuff published.
Speaker 6: I'm actually on my way to work on one now
Speaker 6: because I got invited to join another anthology of end
Speaker 6: of the World story.
Speaker 1: So you know, zombie's here Armageddon baby. Oh yeah, what
Speaker 1: a guy. He did that from a library. His power
Speaker 1: went out. I would have still was like, gotta do
Speaker 1: this podcast. We both would have canceled. I would have
Speaker 1: been like, I don't know what to tell you. My
Speaker 1: powers out, and he was like, I'll be at the
Speaker 1: public library talking about SVU. What a great guy. But
Speaker 1: I mean that's why he's had such an amazing career.
Speaker 2: I think he shows up. I don't think, you know.
Speaker 2: I think he shows up. He works hard, and he cares,
Speaker 2: you know, the opposite of Gerad.
Speaker 1: Yes, he shows up and he shows out. I mean
Speaker 1: his sassy confrontations with Casey Novak on her bike. I'll
Speaker 1: never forget it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just am obsessed with him. I'd like to
Speaker 2: be invited to Thanksgiving at the Boatman House.
Speaker 4: They really would. I think that's what I'd like to do.
Speaker 1: Lots of kids running around, That's not.
Speaker 4: Why, but I think it would be a good time.
Speaker 1: Well, this episode, obviously is It sucks that it's so old,
Speaker 1: and I feel like a lot of it still holds
Speaker 1: up today, with like people that still you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what is the rule? Gave funerals and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: what's the rule?
Speaker 2: Like it takes two generations to change anything or something?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't even know.
Speaker 2: I might have fully made that up, but it's wild
Speaker 2: that things are the same. I mean, same with the
Speaker 2: Nazi episodes in the early seasons, like we're true. No,
Speaker 2: we've digressed as a society. You like, I don't, I
Speaker 2: don't know what happened. We've truly went backwards. It used
Speaker 2: to be like chill, like now people like we might
Speaker 2: have talked about this, but now people get so mad
Speaker 2: at any black show and it's like no one would
Speaker 2: get mad at Fresh Prince. No one was like, oh
Speaker 2: whoa culture, Now we have Fresh Prince, Like that wasn't it,
Speaker 2: Like yeah, family matters.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like there used to just be shows and.
Speaker 1: Everything, and now they're like fuck Abbot elementary or.
Speaker 2: What yeah, or Blackish Blackish black people. It got under
Speaker 2: people's skin, you know, or insecure, Like it's like oh great,
Speaker 2: all of that. It's like it's gone backwards and people
Speaker 2: are just so angry at nothing and are so regressive
Speaker 2: and like, I don't know, I don't get it. I
Speaker 2: really don't.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel so sad for the main character Ian
Speaker 1: in this movie. I mean in this episode that you
Speaker 1: just like are struggling with your own identity and then
Speaker 1: your father has made it his life's work to prove
Speaker 1: that like you're a like you're an abomination and that
Speaker 1: you need to be like fixed.
Speaker 2: You know, and that the dead knute But thenk got
Speaker 2: he got one on his dad, like fuck his dad. Yeah, wait, abominating?
Speaker 2: Why is the abominable snowman? Is that because of abomination
Speaker 2: or those are just two separate words.
Speaker 1: I think abominable means Yeah, I don't know why that
Speaker 1: is in reference to a snowman.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Casey is looking at Casey? Are you looking it up?
Speaker 2: But back to Globes Talk and another thing. And it's
Speaker 2: one of the top podcasts too, But like, I will
Speaker 2: never watch Yellowstone.
Speaker 1: What it's one of the top TV shows. You said podcasts?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, though the podcast of the rewatch is number one.
Speaker 2: It's the number one show in the nation. Yeah, everyone's obsessed,
Speaker 2: Like the recap show is number one on all the
Speaker 2: charts imber speaking.
Speaker 1: Sorry my bad, No, that's crazy. I didn't know there
Speaker 1: was a Yellowstone podcast. What the fuck you know there is?
Speaker 1: There's a Yellowstone universe, yeah, like they're doing prequels and
Speaker 1: all this stuff. Oh yeah, because I I think an
Speaker 1: original Yellowstone takes place like now in Montana. I might
Speaker 1: be wrong, am I right? Casey? Do you know anyway?
Speaker 1: I think it just takes place like now in Montana,
Speaker 1: and then some of the spinoffs are like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is twenty years earlier with the same family or whatever.
Speaker 1: You know, like because people are so into it, what
Speaker 1: is it? You know? I watched Big Sky for a
Speaker 1: long time and that took place in Montana, but that
Speaker 1: I don't fat at nighttime, so I'm not watching.
Speaker 4: I will not watch it.
Speaker 1: You're not wikipediaing, you're not finding out.
Speaker 2: There's like one girl I really follow on Instagram and
Speaker 2: she just got really into it and she's like, oh my,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, maybe I'll have that, like, but I don't.
Speaker 2: It feels so like something my parents would watch and
Speaker 2: that I would never watch. Yeah, I'm happy for Kevin Costner.
Speaker 2: I've always been a fan Our family Message in a Bottle.
Speaker 2: I remember watching that in the theater.
Speaker 1: Have you ever watched the movie with Kevin Kostner and
Speaker 1: Dane Cook called Mister Brooks. It's one of the worst
Speaker 1: movies I've ever seen in my entire life. Watched it
Speaker 1: and was Virginia and Jared's parents' basement, and we were
Speaker 1: both like, this movie is so bad because it was
Speaker 1: when people were like, yeah, Dane Cook's a movie star
Speaker 1: and you're like, I don't know, like and it does not.
Speaker 2: No, they really pushed him. He couldn't do movies. He
Speaker 2: got a couple and it didn't work. Your hair looks
Speaker 2: cute like that? Oh, thanks around.
Speaker 1: I never do that. It was my jam when I
Speaker 1: was like a kid, I would always tell my babysitters,
Speaker 1: can you put my hair some hair up, some hair down?
Speaker 4: It's cute.
Speaker 2: My babysitters brushed my hair too, so cute.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I brushed Rosie's hair every morning and it's a nightmare.
Speaker 4: Well, but she has curly hair.
Speaker 2: Do you You're not supposed to brush curly hair without it, like,
Speaker 2: unless it's wet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wet it with like Leavin conditioner.
Speaker 2: Is it the bottles with an octopus on it? Is
Speaker 2: it like a no body wash?
Speaker 1: That's her body, that's her, that's her bubble, that's Osky shampoo.
Speaker 1: But no, Rosie, I got special curly hair shampoo. I'm
Speaker 1: starting or early. I'm like, you get different shampoo from
Speaker 1: Oscar like even though he's got curly hair too. But
Speaker 1: it's not quite the problem that rehearses yet. So they
Speaker 1: have kid curls yeah, and there's not a haircut in sight.
Speaker 1: By the way, she's not interested in a haircut at all.
Speaker 1: It's already like down her back. So I don't know
Speaker 1: if we're getting to but I don't know what we're
Speaker 1: gonna do.
Speaker 2: I watched a viral video of a dad taking his
Speaker 2: little son who had long hair, in for a haircut
Speaker 2: and then surprised the mom with the haircut, and the
Speaker 2: mom was like happy to see the kid. But I
Speaker 2: was like, that's like fucked up. I thought it was
Speaker 2: fucked up.
Speaker 1: Why to cut your kid's hair like the first haircut? Oh,
Speaker 1: without the mom? Yeah, that is weird. That is really weird.
Speaker 2: I just the Internet's ruined everything, Like I don't believe
Speaker 2: anything anymore. Like I watched a horrific video where the
Speaker 2: dad is on speakerphone talking to a kid, screaming at
Speaker 2: the kid, and the mom is just videotaping it, and
Speaker 2: it's the dad being pissed because the mom filed for
Speaker 2: child support, and the dad's telling the kid, well, then
Speaker 2: I'm picking you up anymore.
Speaker 1: Fuck that.
Speaker 4: Talk to your mom.
Speaker 2: If I'm paying child support, You're never gonna see me again,
Speaker 2: never again. I'm never picking you up. You're not coming here.
Speaker 2: She wants money, then that's what you get, and like
Speaker 2: screaming at this kid. The kid got on the internet, right,
Speaker 2: the kid is hysterically crying. I mean it's blurred to
Speaker 2: face and the mom is just taping it. Maybe it's
Speaker 2: for court, she's taping it. Yeah, why are you putting
Speaker 2: it online? Like yeah, what? But also that dad has
Speaker 2: damaged this child forever. I don't It's just like even
Speaker 2: doing nice deeds like the or people, not the pranks,
Speaker 2: like I'm going to college, and then it's like people's
Speaker 2: reactions to gifts, to everything, and it's like I love
Speaker 2: sweet things, and now I don't trust the authenticity of
Speaker 2: these videos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh well, I'll definitely be taking my children for
Speaker 1: their first haircup, but I'm gonna leave Oscars for a
Speaker 1: long time. Jared's against having him have long hair, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, why is he against it? I don't know.
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't know if I really want him
Speaker 1: to like go super long, and I go, we're not
Speaker 1: cutting his hair until he's at least three, so get
Speaker 1: on board.
Speaker 4: Like yeah, it's cute and.
Speaker 1: He has like curly hair already, and I just can't
Speaker 1: wait to see what happens if it turns into like
Speaker 1: a big puffball, Like I can't wait to see it.
Speaker 4: He might have a jo fro.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited. And it's blonde. How weird, how weird.
Speaker 1: It's gonna look crazy.
Speaker 2: I'm really excited. Okay, we can't keep talking about this.
Speaker 2: I did get really sad with the child supports stuff, but.
Speaker 1: Well, this actually kind of goes into our what would
Speaker 1: sister pow go right into it?
Speaker 4: My big thing.
Speaker 2: I just want to say, like, yeah, I don't have
Speaker 2: kids if you don't.
Speaker 4: Want to take care of them, Like, don't.
Speaker 2: I don't know how that's such a hard concept for people,
Speaker 2: Like just don't do it. I don't, it's so easy
Speaker 2: not to do it. I don't understand why you would
Speaker 2: ever do.
Speaker 1: That if you didn't want to do it, right, that
Speaker 1: kid is fucked forever. What a sad sad I would
Speaker 1: never let that see the light of day on the
Speaker 1: internet if I had to get it for court or something.
Speaker 1: I get that, but like, yeah, that would not see
Speaker 1: the light of day. Like you think it's a punishment
Speaker 1: to pay for your kid to do what is happening?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, get your kid to eat. It's not even for
Speaker 1: your kid to like do activity, it's like for your
Speaker 1: kid to eat and have clothes. Anyway, this week's what
Speaker 1: was Sister peg Dow? Yeah, this is the week are
Speaker 1: what was Sister peg Dow? Which you know is our
Speaker 1: weekly segment where we point you to an article, organization,
Speaker 1: maybe another podcast episode, something to help you, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of inform what we talked about on today's episode.
Speaker 1: And obviously today we saw like horrendous behavior of a
Speaker 1: parent handling their child coming out and being gay, and
Speaker 1: so I wanted to point you towards p Flag, which
Speaker 1: is you know, a longstanding uh organization. It's the first
Speaker 1: and largest organization dedicated to supporting, educated, and advocating for
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus people and their families. So it's a I
Speaker 1: have first heard of p Flag referenced in Reality Bites
Speaker 1: the movie, So it's been around for a long time
Speaker 1: and their mission is to create a caring, justin a
Speaker 1: firming world for LGBTQ plus people and those who love them. So,
Speaker 1: if you know someone who has a kid who might
Speaker 1: be gay, or someone whose kid has just come out
Speaker 1: to them and maybe they need an organization where they
Speaker 1: need more resources because I'm sure a lot of people
Speaker 1: are like, Okay, what can I do to help my kid?
Speaker 1: Now that they've told me this pflag dot org. They
Speaker 1: have a lot of information and as always that will
Speaker 1: be storied the day the episode comes out wide and
Speaker 1: always we save our what would sister peg dos on
Speaker 1: a highlight on our Instagram called WWSPD Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for that. Kara and Casey just wrote us Yellowstone
Speaker 1: is in Wyoming and I'm a little bit Montana, so whatever,
Speaker 1: they're the same.
Speaker 4: It's a mountains.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay, so I wasn't totally crazy.
Speaker 2: And then abominable is the adjective version of abomination.
Speaker 4: Wow, but how.
Speaker 1: I guess it's abominable because it's so huge that it's like, again,
Speaker 1: it's not the same size as a normal snowman. You know,
Speaker 1: it's abominable, Like, oh, abomination means huge. No, abomination means
Speaker 1: you're like against the norm or you're you're out of
Speaker 1: the norm.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you know he lives in a cave. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 7: Abominable is like causing moral revulsion. Yeah, it's like causing discuss,
Speaker 7: causing discuss. It's not necessarily size, but it's like causing
Speaker 7: fear and unpleasant Wow.
Speaker 4: Okay, see first time speaking on the pod.
Speaker 1: So that's why he's abominable because he causes revulsion because
Speaker 1: he's so huge with his big snowman claws and everything. Yeah.
Speaker 4: But in the movie Monsters, Inc.
Speaker 2: He's cute, you know, So I forgot that he's supposed
Speaker 2: to be a bad guy. Like all of my references,
Speaker 2: he's a cutie. He's a cutie trying to chill out.
Speaker 1: I remember it from like a clay Nation stop motion
Speaker 1: Christmas thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he also wasn't that evil in that right?
Speaker 2: Like he has a big part.
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably so does the Grinch, you know, everybody in
Speaker 1: the end.
Speaker 2: Next week obviously another episode will Never Stop. Real Fake News,
Speaker 2: Season eighteen, Episode seventeen, Join us and and you know
Speaker 2: peacock Hulu.
Speaker 1: That's it.
Speaker 2: I don't know the six internationals. We're obsessed with all
Speaker 2: of you. We're so lucky we get to do this.
Speaker 2: And I hope your January has been going good and
Speaker 2: you haven't put too much pressure on yourselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know what, we've decided that February is
Speaker 1: the new January. So if this month sucked, fucking throw
Speaker 1: it away, because February is where we start over. See
Speaker 1: you next week.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kara Klank and.
Speaker 4: At glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information. Thank you so much to our producer Casey
Speaker 1: O Brah and to our mixer John Bradley and our
Speaker 1: guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our
Speaker 1: theme song, and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank
Speaker 1: you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer,
Speaker 1: and everybody at Exactly Right Media. Dun Dun