WEBVTT - The South African Perspective - Part Two (with Robyn Curnow) 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:03.560 I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:06.800 I was a CIA officer stationed around the world in 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.520 high threat posts in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.640 And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.840 and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:17.799 our adversaries. 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.720 Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:23.520 theories large and small. 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.280 Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:28.840 This is mission implausible. 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.199 We now continue with part two of our conversation with 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:40.040 Robin Kerno, former journalists for CNN and all around South African. 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:44.559 Actually, South Africans are having quite an impact on us 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:46.680 here politically in the United States now right. So there's 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.160 a tech bros. Elon musk is the best known David Sachs, 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.479 Peter Teel who have strong views about what the US 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.800 government should be, what should happen to the future, where 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.639 are we going with technology? And they're playing a very 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.360 large role in our politics. Is there something based on 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.119 your experience with South Africa that is South African about 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.160 that or is there anything as we look at them 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:10.200 and we try to figure out what impact is having 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.759 on us, Is there something that we should know based 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:15.600 on their background in South Africa that will help us 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:16.800 put it into context. 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.000 A lot of people have asked me this, and I've 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.360 tried to listen to them as well. I'll listen to 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:25.200 sax on the All In podcast. There's also David Freeberg 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:28.200 who's also South African. Elon, you know, I've listened to 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.520 a lot of his conversations. I've listened to and Chris 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.880 Cuomo asked me this and then got Elon's dad on 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.480 his show and asked him, you know, were you racist 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:40.840 aparty topologists? And Elon's father dealt with it in he 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.200 said no. The other question with that, which sometimes I 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.120 think is also dangerous, is if is anybody who isn't 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.720 black who grew up in white South Africa racist and 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:56.880 therefore a crazy person who believes in things that aren't cool. 0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:59.600 And there's also that you've got to be careful that 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.200 you're not painting an entire generation it just happened to 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.880 be unfortunately born during a totalitarian race government that you 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.519 all get tempered with some sort of race brush. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:12.320 Yeah, but the things that they're saying this is the 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.639 sort of viewpoint about what the role of government is 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:18.600 and what the future is and what has I don't 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.560 necessarily think of it as a racist thing, but there's something. 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.440 Is there something cultural that's behind that sort of mental 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.680 I don't know the answer, maybe no, But the. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.400 Only way I can I could probably bring some sort 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.920 of light into it. So if you think about conspiracy theories, 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:36.880 and I say we because I'm almost the same age 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:38.680 as all of those men, and we grew up in 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:43.160 Johannesburg Pretoria area, so you know, I had almost for 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:47.840 some of the same childhood and news was censored. There 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.920 was the SABC, it was the only news. The apartheid 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:56.840 government was extremely good at propaganda and censorship. We lived 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.720 in isolation. It was deliberate by the outside world. Of course, 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.160 like the Soviet Union and the South Africans were cut off. 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:10.720 The apartheid media machine was vicious. It was highly proficient 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.120 at what it did, and it worked hand in hand 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.360 with the apartheid government and the apartheid intelligence authorities. So 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.920 when you grow up in an environment where nothing, you 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.560 don't know anything, you and this is I think of 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.960 true of any totalitarian state. Because South Africa and Apartheid 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:30.320 at his basis was a Christian nationalist totalitarian state. When 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.440 you grow up in that with no information, your instinct 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:38.040 is to just not trust anything. If you're not a 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:40.560 believer in the in the state, which you know none 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.200 of us. I don't think you know the sac set. 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.560 You know, they were a Jewish South African family who 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.120 moved to the state. So did the Freeburgs. I think 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.200 Elon Musk hated it, and they got out there as 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:52.880 quickly as possible. I mean he was out of there 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.240 before we could. And you know my family as well, 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.040 liberal white English speaking South Africans. You know, you were 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:02.200 stuck in this place and you couldn't leave, and so 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.960 your instinct was, I don't believe any of this stuff, 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:06.720 So I'm just not going to believe anything, or you 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.840 take everything with a pinch of salt, or in that environment, 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.080 you then say, okay, this seems to be vaguely true. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.000 This is maybe I saw this the past books or 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.200 some violence on the street. But then there are a 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.320 bunch of gaps like why is this happening, who gave 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.159 the orders? What are the implications? So you start filling 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.919 in the gaps, and that's where the conspiracy theories come in. 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:34.679 And so you grow up either in a society which 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:39.320 there's no information, or you start believing maybe this is true. 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:42.840 I think an American diplomat once described the old South 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.640 Africa as the republic of rumors, and so, you know, 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.400 information became power because if you knew something, you could 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.919 protect yourself, you could use it, you could just be 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.920 an ostrich and bury your head in the sand. So 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.960 South Africans, black and white, tend to have a very 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:08.080 instinctive reaction to information sometimes because we're like, well, I 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.200 don't know if that's true. You know, is it an 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.000 official source? Who's telling me this? 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:12.440 Why? 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.000 Why are they telling me this? Why are they telling 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:16.960 me in this way? Is this something I need to 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.400 read between the lines or is it not. So I 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:24.600 think that that kind of anarchist, maybe kind of deconstructionist 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.560 Peter teele version of the world might have come from that. 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:34.400 I don't know. I think maybe Elon's obsession with free 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:39.000 speech to the point that it's just overwhelmed, maybe comes 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.760 from growing up in an environment where speech was so 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:48.159 limited and no, you couldn't say anything. I still my 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.680 grandmother's I still call home and my grandmother will, well, 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.760 just be careful what you say on the telephone. Don't 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:57.440 say that, Robin. You never know who's listening. Now, nobody's 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.400 going to be listening to a one hundred year old 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.840 lady and her granddaughter sitting in the northern suburbs of Johannesburg. 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.640 But that instinct that somebody's listening and that you've got 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:11.560 to fight the system can maybe create the Elons and 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.359 the Peter Teals and their sort of nilistic views sometimes 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.920 of the world. And that would be my only explanation. 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.640 I think the interesting thing when we talk about information 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.400 and conspiracy. So in those days, like a totalitarian state, 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:29.120 no information, you how use conspiracy theories, rumors, half truths, 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:31.279 mythstruths to kind of fill in the blanks of what 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.880 you don't know. And then in a place like America 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.320 now or in the sort of social media world were 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.560 living in, there's too much information, so people are so 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.640 overwhelmed by all the information coming at them that they 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.960 then start to distrust it all and then come up 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.240 and try and fill in the bits. So I think 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.359 there's this sublime and the ridiculous here, and that is 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:54.080 my kind of convoluted way of trying to understand the 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:58.120 world views perhaps of the teals and the sexes and 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.240 the Musks. I don't know if you think that makes. 0:06:59.920 --> 0:07:03.040 It so there's a word I use. I use lots 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:07.040 of words that I don't actually understand that I don't understand, 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.360 and it's it's it's it's algorithm, right, and algorithms give 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.560 us the news that we want, right, and so that. 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:17.400 But did they well sort of? I think that you know, 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:19.760 if you're interested in something, it tends to come your 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.000 way to sell you more snow tires or beer, you know, 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.760 whatever we sell. It also goes back to again when 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.000 I was in the living in the third World. I'm 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.040 not sure that's the right term, but in Africa and 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:35.200 the Middle East and Asia that people often use conspiracy 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:39.800 theories and lack of information and Hollywood weirdly to make 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:44.040 themselves the heroes of their own of their own movie. 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.320 And so I was shocked when I first went to Zimbabwe, 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.680 where it was clear that everyone in the Zimbabwean government 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.480 thought that the president would wake up and he wants 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:59.360 to know what's going on in Zimbabwe. What is Mugabi 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.800 up to now? What about the white farmers, what's the 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.960 what's his concern on the Shona and de bella split, right, 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.840 what are his real views on it? Like, we obviously 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.640 want to take over Zimbabwe and Botswana. And I found 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.840 that in the Middle East as well, where people are like, yeah, 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.440 you know that the president wants to know about the 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:23.080 ismaily angle on. It's like, you know, look, you'll be 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.400 lucky if they can figure out she you know. And 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:29.240 so also with the US though, I find it also 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:33.040 through family members who are into conspiracy theories that like, 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.000 I get it. I'm the hero. I figured this out. 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.719 I have a narrative and often it's me against the world, right, 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.280 if you know, it's like they're almost superheroes. I was wondering, 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.880 if you've talked to a lot of people around the world, 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.120 do you get a sense that there's also this sense 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:48.360 of ego as well? 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.800 Yeah, but isn't that it? And it does because it's 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:51.880 sort of like if. 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.480 You if you and with Jesus, right, he's there for you. 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:57.880 Yeah, and I think that person. Isn't that the whole 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.199 point of it? You know, in times of chain, a 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.200 conspiracy theory will offer you a false sense of security 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.840 or an explanation for the unknown. A conspiracy theory, to 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:14.360 your point, also creates a social identity. So whether it's 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.160 the bridge ladies discussing something in the northern suburbs or 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.880 whether it's a group of Shauna having a conversation over 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.880 warm beer. At the end of the day, there's a 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:28.880 social oh did you hear this? And we feel a 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.560 sense of belonging. Superiority I think comes into it. But 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:36.720 victimhood two. Sometimes I think that they're the same sides 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:38.440 of the you know, different sides of the coin. The 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.360 sense of superiority or victim or shared victimhood that you'd 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:45.200 get from sharing a conspiracy theory, and that confirmation bias 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.320 that comes from that that we all agree that we're 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:53.160 either being done in by somebody together, the victimhood one, 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:57.079 or we know something that those other folks down the 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:01.600 road don't know and we have evidence whatever is you know, 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.640 also creates that confirmation bias. So yes, and I think 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:09.440 I think in Africa, what's so funny? And then you 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:11.320 probably saw too. I spent a lot of times also 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:16.040 being fascinated by witchcraft. You mentioned it, and I think 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:20.360 a World Health organization said ninety five percent of sub 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:24.240 Saharan Africans visit a witch doctor a sangoma and younger 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.640 first before they go to a traditional doctor. Now this 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:34.439 cuts across class, and this is generally Black Africans, tribal Africans, 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:38.280 but it also is infused within sort of white society too, 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.360 I would argue, but just a different type of a younger. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:46.200 You're going to trust your restuctor, you know, your physiotherapist 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.320 before you trust or whatever I think is the wrong. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:51.679 You're going to trust your acupunctures before you touch the doctor. 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:54.600 But for me, I always found it so interesting how 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:58.280 that sense of superiority played into the conspiracy theories around 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:04.360 health and power and social status in Africa. So the 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.800 witch doctor would be the kind of dispenser of the 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.440 conspiracy theory. Often whether it's sleeping with a virgin to 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:15.040 cure your aids, or whether it's to chase away a 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.360 cheating wife, or whether it's to get good luck so 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:23.719 you can be employed next year. And various tasks are 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:26.880 given out, whether you slaughter a goat or a cow, 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.360 or whether you go and you walk into the you know, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:34.760 and whatever the different tribal rituals are. That then creates 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.040 this sort of narrative that then younger the san gorm 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.400 has power. And then if you do this, you too 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:45.120 will get power. And often I found it fascinating that 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.760 the people who rejected the conspiracy theories or said no, 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.160 this is BS, or I disagree with this, or no, 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:56.840 you shouldn't rape children, or your wife wasn't cheating on you. 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.680 Often those people would then be punished. It wouldn't be 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.040 the soun gorma who would be punished. And so these 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.960 witchcraft killings that would often turn up, these sort of 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:13.040 tribalized killings were often often that sense of superiority by 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:18.520 the group silencing somebody who was questioning their confirmation bias 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.520 around whatever that theory was, and that sense of superior 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:27.840 to ority often came, I think because people were threatened 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.800 by somebody who was different or had a different point 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.040 of view. And I think that group dynamic plays into everything. 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.000 It plays into stuff we're seeing here in the States. 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.480 And you don't have to be in rural vendor in 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:42.040 the Soappunsburg getting someone dispensing information from a mad hut 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:44.880 to know that those instincts can be amplified. 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.160 I saw in our old world right, everybody the hero 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.720 of their own movie. I'm armed, I can fight off 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.959 bad guys when they come in intelligence, you'd see the 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.160 same thing. Especially I remember when the snowed and thing 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.760 happened and he left, there's this view, Oh my god, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.800 you know they're going after my privacy, They're coming after you, 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.200 and like if you work in the intelligence, you're like 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.080 nobody cares about you. No one is looking at the 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.040 Americans stuff. There's millions and million, hundreds of millions of 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.520 Americans like this is not something that we are interested in, 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:15.679 have time for, have legal reason to do. And it 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.720 goes further, like when you talk to people who are voting, 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.199 it's like the government's not solving my problems, and like 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.360 it's everybody sees the world through their own lens, which 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.360 is not surprising, but they take it incredibly seriously. 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.640 But why do you think, why do you think America 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.320 is such a bogey man? Because there is even now 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.160 the sense of And that's one of the reasons I've 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.360 realized with this podcast is that the sort of anti 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.360 Americanism clearly is is a fear of what Trump is 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.640 doing and the sort of the global implications of his policies. 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:49.920 But there's also very easy anti americanism even without even 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.280 during the Obama days, when people loved him. You know, 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.360 you know, you guys are listening or you following, or 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:58.720 you know, are you following me? You know, like you know, 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.720 nobody's listening in Americans have far more important things to 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.640 deal with right now than, like you said, whether or 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.840 not at even a cabinet meeting in some random country. 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:10.000 This is going one way or the other. 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:35.080 Let's passib a second. We'll be right back. Remember a 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.520 senior Iraqi official who was running one of their versions 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.120 of the FBI said to me that he doesn't trust 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:47.800 the United States because President Obama is anti Shia, because 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.000 what do you mean his father was a Sunni. He's 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.040 a Sunni. He bought into the conspiracy theory that he 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.200 was born in Kenya and that he's a Muslim, right 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.840 that was a given to him. And as a Sunni, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.880 he doesn't like that shea dominated Iraqi government. And I 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.040 had to try to dissuade him to the fact that 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.960 Obama knows a difference between She and Sunny a little bit, 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:10.360 but like he doesn't really care. 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.400 About that, and that plays into a superiority thing, like 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:15.800 if that was it's your grouping that. 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.000 But he was riffing off of American conspiracy theories right 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.680 that he was picking up on the internet. Robert, there 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.840 is one thing. So we've got two CIA guys and 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.320 we've got an award winning journalist here. I just want 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.360 to say, for the record, what record, Well, I don't 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:33.960 know whatever anybody, So all. 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:35.920 The people who are listening in and taking that. 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.760 Everybody shut over your own story. Someone's keeping a record 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:40.440 of what we're. 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:46.360 Saying, really truly common. No shit, CIA does not use 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.520 journalistic cover. It is like death to us. Now. I 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:55.880 think we church committee like before the nineteen seventies, like 0:15:55.920 --> 0:16:01.320 you know, fifty years ago, we may have dabbled in that, but. 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.560 But you can protest that until the cow's come and 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.680 nobody's going to believe you that a journalist in a 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.000 place is not that we that I wasn't feeding back 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:15.360 information to the president. I just think we know that. 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.360 The way to tell the CIA guy in a diplomatic function, 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:20.880 if you're a journalist, is the person who runs away 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.160 from you because we have to report it, and it's 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.360 like it's trouble. 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.360 I would love to know now who, Yeah, because I 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.280 and also I'm not particularly interested in your point of 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.960 view as a journalist either. I'm trying to get my 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.960 own stuff. My output is different from. 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.800 Your outputes are very thin too. We're all interested in like, 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:44.000 very specific security related issues, not wider cultural and bigger 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:45.680 news related things. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:47.680 And I mean you get you know, the ambassador you 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:49.360 can see from when the CA you talk what Snowden, 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.240 when the cables releaked, I mean the ambassadors are painting 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.800 a picture of you know, you know, the power elite 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.520 within a country. Often you know those that's often an 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.360 interesting anecdotal stuff. You know, some of those cables were fascinating, 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:05.840 but it wasn't I'm assuming what you guys were doing. 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:08.800 You're not particularly interested in who's on top and who 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.640 isn't unless it's a very specific angle that you're trying 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.159 to get. I was more interested in painting a picture 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.280 of what was important and what was happening, and again 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.080 probably narrow, how is Mandela? Is he dying? Will he 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.119 die tomorrow? That I spent a whole year of my 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.960 life having that conversation, and that was important, I think 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.760 for the US diplomatic call, because they needed to know 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.240 if the president, if Obama, would be able to come 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.040 to Mandela's funeral, for example, that was a political state 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.040 argument nothing to do with what you guys were doing, obviously, 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:43.840 But I think a lot of countries do use journalists 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.160 as covered and there are a lot of stories of that. 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.240 But yes, not the Americans. We have put it on 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.200 the record for all the Chinese and listening. 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.280 But I did a lot of counter terrorism in my time, 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.000 and I remember Dick Cheney being Vice President United States, 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:01.960 being really upset saying peterberg In, a journalist gets into 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.119 the cave and sits with Osama bin Laden and we 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.359 the CIA, we can't do We the US government, you, 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.240 the CIA, you can't do this. And the answer was 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:16.360 bin Laden actually believes that CIA doesn't use journalistic cover 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:20.439 because we don't. So we had convinced beIN Laden that 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.560 we don't do it. I don't know, can you tell me? 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:23.840 I think. 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.080 I think we've had this conversation, and I said, our 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.399 output was different. I think the method of gathering is 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.720 the same. It's getting information from people, and more often 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.400 than not, that comes from connecting with people, looking them 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.719 in the eye, getting them to trust you, keeping them, 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.679 keeping them safe. The storytelling in terms of how you 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.840 get somebody to share something with you. I was just 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.639 putting it out publicly, you were just putting it out internally. 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.240 It's probably the same skill set on some level, but 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.480 very different, no doubt. 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:01.439 That's what we like. We like talking to journals. There 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.760 are very similarities in what your work was and what 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.960 our work was. But the one thing that's not similar, 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.119 which I do want to ask you about, is in 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.600 your career you've interviewed lots of famous and interesting people 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.679 and powerful people. Can you talk a little bit just 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.159 in just like who you found most interesting or I 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.800 know you've talked to Oprah for example, is she willing 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:25.600 to accept blame for doctor Osby? Or who have you interviewed? 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.240 What was interesting? Any anecdotes that those of us who 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:29.800 live in a sort of loved run. 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.720 Would find, especially Mandela, who is still a hero of mine. 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.720 Yeah, I think, and I think again. I wanted to 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:39.800 meet those people and interview those people because I was 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.240 interested in what made them tick. And I'm particularly interested 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.360 in people who aren't that nice. I'm sure you're saying 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.160 some of the most fascinating. 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.240 People, which is while you're here, which is. 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.800 Exactly is the sort of nefarious I just like the 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.960 way power works, and I like to watch it, and 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.359 I also like to watch people when they leave power 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.399 because I think that's sometimes the most interesting place for 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.199 someone to be. And with that in mind, one of 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.440 funnal LEO that for the most interesting people I found 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:08.920 who surprised me, because I don't get surprised by much, 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:13.119 was actually George W. Bush. He surprised me a because 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.640 he was so likable, and I went into the interview 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.640 kind of thinking, and it was under an acacia tree 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.040 in Zambia. He was opening up a clinic for to 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.680 encourage the HPV vaccines. So he had saved all these 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:31.520 lives with pepfar by giving HIV positive Africans entry retrovirals, 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.960 which is an amazing program that saved so many lives. 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:37.359 It was a Bush administration thing. And then he realized 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:39.040 a lot of people, a lot of women were dying 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.639 of cervical cancer because there were their immune systems were down, 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.119 so he was saving them from HIV AIDS and then 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.640 they were getting cancer. And so just the hot that's 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.840 a George W. Bush conversation, you know what I mean. 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.399 It was just he surprised me on so many levels. 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.000 And this was during the snowdon time. So I actually 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:58.800 said to him, I said, do you think Snowden is 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:01.880 a traitor? And he was like absolutely. He was very 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:05.960 angry about Snowden. He also seemed to be fascinating you guys. 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.560 He also seemed to be asked him about waterboarding, and 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:14.080 he seemed to be very indignant that it wasn't it 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:19.000 wasn't his fault, the whole waterboarding stuff, because it Congress 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:23.359 had given permission or there'd been like a whole process. Yeah, 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.600 and he said, they knew what everybody knew what they 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.000 were signing off on. So why am I cutting the crap? 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:31.960 Why am I getting Why am I getting in trouble 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.760 for something? And he was wounded and hurt as if 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.640 he had followed procedure and now he was being slapped 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.520 on the wrist, and so that was interesting. But then 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.960 and then he just became very chatty, and I just 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.520 I could see why he had at a president because 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.200 he was so authentic. You didn't have to agree with 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:55.000 his politics, but you saw what you got, and I 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:59.720 understood then the motivations behind the Americans. Mandela was the 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.159 fleet opposite. I remember sitting with Mandela in one of 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.600 his sort of one of his last official interviews. He 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:09.560 was ninety. He was at home in Kunu, which is 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:13.560 in the rural Eastern Cape, and he was looking out 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.600