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Speaker 1: On this episode of newch World. Vice President J D.

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Speaker 1: Vance attended an AI Summit meeting in France on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: hosted by France and India. In his opening address, he

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Speaker 1: described his vision of a coming era of American technological domination.

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Speaker 1: He said, quote, the Trump administration will ensure that the

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Speaker 1: most powerful AI systems are built in the US with

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Speaker 1: American design and manufactured chips. Here to discuss the AI Summit,

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Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome back my guest, Neil Chilson.

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Speaker 1: He's a lawyer, computer scientist, and author of the book

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Speaker 1: Getting out of Control Emergent Leadership in a Complex World.

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Speaker 1: As head of the AI Policy at the Abundance Institute,

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Speaker 1: Chilson works to create a policy and cultural environment where

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Speaker 1: emerging technologies, including artificial intelligence, can develop and thrive. Neil,

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Speaker 1: welcome and thank you for joining me again on new tool.

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Speaker 2: It's great to be back.

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Speaker 1: Before we get in an AI tell us just for a

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Speaker 1: minute about the Abundance Institute. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, the bud Ins Institute is a mission driven nonprofit.

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Speaker 2: We're focused on the policy and the culture around emerging

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Speaker 2: technologies and making sure that the policy and cultural environments

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Speaker 2: let emerging technologies get full throated market tests to try

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Speaker 2: to solve the problems that we know that historically that

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Speaker 2: technology can do to create widespread human prosperity. So we

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Speaker 2: do that in lots of different ways, including policy at

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Speaker 2: the federal and the state level in the US.

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Speaker 1: When you think about emerging technologies beyond artificial intelligence, what

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Speaker 1: else do you think about?

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Speaker 2: There's so much We have quantum computing, which is another

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Speaker 2: new model for computing that could be super fast and

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Speaker 2: super exciting. It's still in the very early days. There's

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Speaker 2: things like biotechnology. There is so much in that space

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Speaker 2: about how to design new drugs custom to individual bodies

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Speaker 2: and what even like maybe what a drug looks like

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Speaker 2: in the future, it could be quite different. And so

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Speaker 2: those are some of the new ones that are coming up.

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Speaker 2: There's all these new areas and energy that are really

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Speaker 2: exciting abundances to right now is very active in the

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Speaker 2: policy space around small modular reactors, which are small safe

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Speaker 2: nuclear reactors that can power essentially a data center to

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Speaker 2: get back to the AI topic or other small uses.

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Speaker 2: So we're very excited about all of those.

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Speaker 1: Do you also look at robotics.

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Speaker 2: Robotics is a key part of moving from the world

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Speaker 2: of bits to the world of atoms, and robotics has

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Speaker 2: played a big role already in manufacturing, and with these

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Speaker 2: new generative AI models and deep machine learning models that

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Speaker 2: we can do, the things that robotics can do are

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Speaker 2: becoming much more expansive as well. Very excited about robotics.

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Speaker 1: As well well, specifically on the AI topic. On February

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Speaker 1: tenth and eleventh, France hosted the Artificial Intelligence Action Summit,

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Speaker 1: where notable world leaders, including US Vice President Jadvans showed up.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us an overview of the France AI conference,

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Speaker 1: which I noted was also co hosted by India. What

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Speaker 1: was its main purpose and what were some of the

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Speaker 1: key takeaways.

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Speaker 2: So this is the third in a series of international

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Speaker 2: summits that have happened in the wake of the popularization

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Speaker 2: of chat, GPT and all the innovation that that has

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Speaker 2: kicked off, and this one shifted a little bit. The

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Speaker 2: two previous ones were called AI safety summits, and they

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Speaker 2: really focused on how do we make sure this technology

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Speaker 2: is safe? And they were driven largely by this fear

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Speaker 2: of catastrophic risk from AI systems. This is sort of

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Speaker 2: the terminator scenarios that people think about. And there were

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Speaker 2: some agreements that came out of those in the UK

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Speaker 2: and Seoul, Korea that were voluntary pledges from some of

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Speaker 2: the companies, the leading companies, but then signed onto by

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Speaker 2: a bunch of the different countries as well. It seems

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Speaker 2: like that storyline that fear, that concern has shifted as

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Speaker 2: people have seen the rise of US companies, the dominance

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Speaker 2: that the US has had in this space, and just

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Speaker 2: the excitement and the potential for this technology. I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of the other countries of the world are

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Speaker 2: less worried about safety, and they're a lot more worried

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Speaker 2: about getting left behind. How do they build a space

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Speaker 2: that has this type of innovation, how do they make

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Speaker 2: sure that their citizens benefit from it? And so the

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Speaker 2: emphasis I think at this summit was ideas around inclusion

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Speaker 2: or widespread availability of the technology, and jade Vance certainly

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Speaker 2: brought a very different perspective to this than the Biden

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Speaker 2: administration had brought to the previous two. Really, Barnburner of

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Speaker 2: a speech that was pro American that really emphasized the

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Speaker 2: fact that the path to AI innovation is not through

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Speaker 2: heavy regulation but one through deregulation, and he urged the

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Speaker 2: European Union to take that path if they wanted to

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Speaker 2: be part of the future.

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Speaker 1: He picks up on the cit his speech, where we

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Speaker 1: have really in the United States emphasized innovation, the Europeans

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Speaker 1: and a whole range of issues have emphasized regulation. And

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Speaker 1: part of a result is, I think, with the exception

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Speaker 1: maybe of two Chinese companies, virtually every trillion dollar company

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Speaker 1: in the world's American. There are no competitors in Europe

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Speaker 1: for whole sections of this, and efforts by the Europeans

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Speaker 1: to punish us by creating fines and other kinds of

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Speaker 1: things is just going to backfire, particularly with the Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: which will respond, I think, very aggressively to that kind

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Speaker 1: of narrow minded policy making, and.

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Speaker 2: They certainly did. J. D. Evan specifically called out fines

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Speaker 2: and regulations that had been unfairly applied, almost unfairly created

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Speaker 2: specifically to target large American companies, and he said the

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Speaker 2: US wasn't going to tolerate that anymore. And he also

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Speaker 2: made a strong case that it's not good for the

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Speaker 2: European Union either, and for their economy as well. So

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Speaker 2: it was a very strident speech that Biden administration had

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Speaker 2: in many cases worked with the European Union to enforce

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Speaker 2: European laws against American companies, and that was certainly a

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Speaker 2: different tack that the Trump administration is taking.

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Speaker 1: The long tide of history is sort of leading Europe behind.

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Speaker 1: I'm the European historian by training. I've lived in France, Germany, Belgium,

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Speaker 1: and Italy, and I love the continent, but I'm watching

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Speaker 1: it sort of commit technological suicide.

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Speaker 2: The moment that gelledas for me the most in the

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Speaker 2: AI space was the cheery signing of the European Union

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Speaker 2: AI Act, which was signed about a year ago now

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Speaker 2: and is starting to go into effect. That was their

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Speaker 2: big moment. They really celebrated the fact that they had

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Speaker 2: passed this very comprehensive regulation that is now looking quite

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Speaker 2: unworkable because the technology has already left behind a bunch

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Speaker 2: of it. For example, they had been working on this

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Speaker 2: pre chat GPT and they had to sort of loo

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Speaker 2: retro fit how the regulation of generative AI technologies like

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Speaker 2: chat GPT into this big regulatory structure they'd already designed,

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Speaker 2: and the world has already moved on even since that

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Speaker 2: final text was finalized, and I think they're figuring out,

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot of discussion at this Paris summit

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Speaker 2: about how do they maybe dial back some of this

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Speaker 2: regulatory pressure in order to get their own national champions.

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Speaker 1: The so called Statement on Inclusive even Sustainable Artificial Intelligence

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Speaker 1: for People in the Planet, which apparently was signed by

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Speaker 1: about sixty countries, but both the United States and the

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Speaker 1: United Kingdom refused to sign it. Now, what was that

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Speaker 1: all about.

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Speaker 2: There was a series of statements. Like I said at

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Speaker 2: the previous summits, there were statements that were similar. Those

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Speaker 2: ones were much more focused on safety issues. And I

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Speaker 2: think the main reason. First of all, like all of

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Speaker 2: these international things, they don't say a ton right. A

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Speaker 2: lot of it is sort of very positive words about,

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Speaker 2: you know, where we want to go, not really operational

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Speaker 2: in how we're going to get there. But there was

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Speaker 2: a definite shift in emphasis for this one, and I

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Speaker 2: think it left nobody happy.

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Speaker 1: Really.

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Speaker 2: The people who are worried about existential risk hated this

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Speaker 2: statement because they thought it didn't address their ideals. People

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Speaker 2: from the Trump administration, I think, are rightly skeptical of

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Speaker 2: like this language of inclusion to the extent that that

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Speaker 2: might drive some sort of international or national mandates about

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Speaker 2: how the technology is deployed. And I think the people

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Speaker 2: who signed it are largely the people who have not

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Speaker 2: been building these overwhelmingly great products, and so it's not

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Speaker 2: clear what effect it would have on the other countries.

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Speaker 2: And so I think maybe I shouldn't say this without

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Speaker 2: knowing it for sure, but I think maybe I had

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Speaker 2: heard that China did sign it, I should double check that.

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Speaker 2: And so for them, it may be a way to

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Speaker 2: help bolster their relations with Europe or who they I

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Speaker 2: think probably see as if the Europeans are going to

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Speaker 2: continue to suppress American companies, perhaps it's a new market

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Speaker 2: for China to get in their cheap AI models.

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Speaker 1: A nice thing about China is they can sign anything,

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Speaker 1: but they'll intend to enforce it. They get to be

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Speaker 1: at the press conference and get their picture taken, and

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Speaker 1: then they go about doing whatever they want to. In

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Speaker 1: the first place, there's this entire emerging pattern where folks

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Speaker 1: go from fancy hotel to fancy hotel to have big

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Speaker 1: meetings talking about big ideas with big words, none of

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Speaker 1: which relates to reality except they keep inventing more and

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Speaker 1: more multinational organizations which have to hire their friends and relatives,

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Speaker 1: so they can have meetings where they talk about things

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Speaker 1: that have no connection with reality, and it's almost like

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Speaker 1: an industry.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's definitely an industry. I think there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of academic conferences that are basically exactly what you described

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Speaker 2: over and over. It certainly is an industry, and in

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Speaker 2: the AI space this is the hot topic. But we've

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Speaker 2: seen international stylings of things like this around privacy, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: You know, sometimes it's good to get on the same

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Speaker 2: page with everybody and figure out like how people can

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Speaker 2: secure human rights across borders. But I don't think that

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Speaker 2: this particular document really moves the ball very much towards

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Speaker 2: anything that's productive.

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Speaker 1: I think what JD did there was really important mark

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Speaker 1: in terms of his own evolution as a national leader,

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Speaker 1: and I thought I was worth listening just for a bit.

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Speaker 3: Now. Our administration, the Trump administration, believes that AI will

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Speaker 3: have countless revolutionary applications and economic innovation, job creation, national security, healthcare,

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Speaker 3: free expression, and beyond, and to restrict its development now

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Speaker 3: will not only unfairly benefit incumbents in the space, it

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Speaker 3: would mean paralyzing one of the most promising technologies we

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Speaker 3: have seen in generations. Now, with that in mind, I'd

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Speaker 3: like to make four main points today. Number One, this

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Speaker 3: administration will ensure that American AI technology continues to be

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Speaker 3: the gold standard worldwide, and we are the partner of

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Speaker 3: choice for others foreign countries, and certainly businesses as they

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Speaker 3: expand their own use of AI. Number two, we believe

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Speaker 3: that excessive regulation of the AI sector could kill a

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Speaker 3: transformative industry just as it's taking off, and will make

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Speaker 3: every effort to encourage pro growth AI policies, and I

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Speaker 3: like to see that deregulatory flavor making its way into

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Speaker 3: a lot of the conversations this conference. Number three, we

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Speaker 3: feel very strongly that AI must remain free from ideological

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Speaker 3: bias and that America AI will not be co opted

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Speaker 3: into a tool for authoritarian censorship. And finally, number four,

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Speaker 3: the Trump administration will maintain a pro worker growth path

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Speaker 3: for AI so it can be a potent tool for

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Speaker 3: job creation in the United States. And I appreciate Prime

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Speaker 3: Minister Modi's point. AI I really believe will facilitate and

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Speaker 3: make people more productive. It is not going to replace

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Speaker 3: human beings. It will never replace human beings, and I

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Speaker 3: think too many of the leaders in the AI industry.

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Speaker 3: When they talk about this fear of replacing workers, I

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Speaker 3: think they really miss the point. AI, we believe is

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Speaker 3: going to make us more productive, more prosperous, and more free.

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Speaker 3: The United States of America is the leader in AI,

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Speaker 3: and our administration plans to keep it that way.

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Speaker 1: Now. You recently tweeted about Vice President Jdvins's speech at

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Speaker 1: the AI summon in Paris, calling it quote one of

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Speaker 1: the most pro innovation speeches you have heard from an

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Speaker 1: elected politician. What stood out to you and his remarks.

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Speaker 2: What stood out is it was the first time that

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Speaker 2: I can remember that the US has stood up to

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Speaker 2: European regulators and said, hey, you know, this is not

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Speaker 2: the path towards innovation and progress. That really stood out.

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Speaker 2: He also pointed out the connection, for example, between AI

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Speaker 2: and energy and how linked those two topics are, and

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Speaker 2: that Europe has been kneecapping itself in energy policy by

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Speaker 2: essentially de industrializing in some ways, and that's grown their

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Speaker 2: reliance on providers such as Russia, and he pointed to

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Speaker 2: that as a big problem. The other thing that I

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Speaker 2: loved about his speech was he pointed out we often

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Speaker 2: think about AI and software as being part of the

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Speaker 2: laptop class, right, that the people who build these things

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Speaker 2: are people who sit behind laptops and type into computers,

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Speaker 2: and that it's in the world of bits. And he

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Speaker 2: pointed out that AI and computation takes large data centers,

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Speaker 2: which are enormous construction projects that involve lots of hard

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Speaker 2: hat workers who are plumbers and electricians and skilled labor

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Speaker 2: and so I really liked his pointing out that this

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Speaker 2: is good for jobs, not just in the tech space,

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Speaker 2: but this is good for blue collar jobs all over.

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Speaker 2: The types of investment that the US has private companies

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Speaker 2: have been pouring into building data centers in order to

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Speaker 2: meet the demands of the software space have been a

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Speaker 2: really big construction investments, infrastructure investments, And I really liked

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Speaker 2: him pointing that out.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about artificial intelligence, when you're watching, how

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Speaker 1: do you think it's going to manifest itself in terms

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Speaker 1: of the average small company or the average individual.

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Speaker 2: So artificial intelligence is a general purpose technology, and I

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Speaker 2: think sometimes the very name of it kind of conceals

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Speaker 2: more than at reveals. I like to think of it

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Speaker 2: just as advanced computing. But the way I think that

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Speaker 2: a lot of these new tools are going to manifest

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Speaker 2: themselves are by making the boring parts of the types

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Speaker 2: of content creation or analysis that people do a lot easier.

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Speaker 2: And so you're tracking all of your accounting for taxes

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Speaker 2: and you're not quite sure how to categorize different things.

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Speaker 2: This is a type of tool that can easily categorize

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Speaker 2: different things just by asking it. And so whereas right

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Speaker 2: now you have to learn the interface of any software

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Speaker 2: program by figuring out like which buttons to click and

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Speaker 2: what commands to type in, I think this is going

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Speaker 2: to add a lot of more conversational so you can

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Speaker 2: just ask the software like how do I do this

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Speaker 2: thing I'm trying to do in natural language? And it

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Speaker 2: will help you navigate things like that. So I think

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Speaker 2: those are some of the very direct ways. I think,

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Speaker 2: less directly, more behind the scenes. I think everybody's going

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Speaker 2: to be impacted by how this affects medicine. These tools

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Speaker 2: are already showing remarkable ability to diagnose say, cat scans

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Speaker 2: or mammograms with extremely good accuracy in far advance of

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Speaker 2: where humans are able to do that, and they can

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Speaker 2: spot problems early, and that's going to make people's lives

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Speaker 2: healthier and safer.

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Speaker 1: We'll all let's talk about crossing borders. When you look

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Speaker 1: at emerging consumer technologies like the cell phone, they just

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Speaker 1: cross the border because people buy them. They suddenly become

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Speaker 1: worldwide because in fact they're a better outcome for normal people.

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Speaker 1: I mean, are we going to see in that an

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Speaker 1: extraordinary spread of artificial intelligence capabilities just because they're so

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Speaker 1: enhancing to what we can do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I think we're already seeing this. You know,

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Speaker 2: chat GPT was the fastest growing app that has ever

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Speaker 2: been deployed by a lot. It had one hundred million

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Speaker 2: users within two months, and so there's a real hunger

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Speaker 2: for using these types of tools, and I think they

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Speaker 2: are spreading wildly, and I think that's part of why

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Speaker 2: we have these international summits around AI, where I think

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Speaker 2: in the similar timeline for say the Internet or the

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Speaker 2: automobile or say the telephone, I don't think you saw

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Speaker 2: international summits because people are so excited about what AI

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Speaker 2: can deliver that everybody wants to figure out how to benefit.

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Speaker 1: But also there's now sort of an international information ecosystem,

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Speaker 1: so that every place on the planet has some connectivity

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Speaker 1: in a way that would not have been true an

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundred or nineteen hundred or even nineteen eighty. Let

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Speaker 1: me switch gears for just a second, because one of

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Speaker 1: the stories, which is slightly confusing, has been the whole

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Speaker 1: issue about deep Seek, the Chinese artificial intelligence company, which

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Speaker 1: has gotten a lot of controversy now. They were claiming

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Speaker 1: that they used open ais technology to develop this brand new, inexpensive,

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Speaker 1: fabulous model that leap frogs everything that's going on. What's

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Speaker 1: your sense of that whole story.

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Speaker 2: So Deepseek was a venture fund, a financial firm in China,

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Speaker 2: and they used a bunch of compute that they had

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Speaker 2: to develop these new models, and so there is a

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Speaker 2: controversy about how much they did something called distillation, and

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Speaker 2: this is a tool where you ask a bunch of

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Speaker 2: questions to somebody else's model and you use those answers

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Speaker 2: to help train your own model. And open ai says

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Speaker 2: that they have some evidence that deep Seek did this

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Speaker 2: for one of their what's called a reasoning model, the

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Speaker 2: R one model that they have. I think that's a problem.

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Speaker 2: It's a problem that's relatively easy for companies like open

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Speaker 2: ai to solve by screening who their customers are and

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Speaker 2: setting their terms of service. But I think it's also

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Speaker 2: a pretty useful tool often, and most importantly, I don't

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Speaker 2: think it is the primary innovation that Deepseek developed. Some

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Speaker 2: of their other innovations around streamlining the process, the algorithms

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Speaker 2: that they use to be more efficient, those are real innovations,

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Speaker 2: and the great thing is, honestly that they released those

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Speaker 2: and told everybody about them. So US companies are going

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Speaker 2: to be able to retrofit those innovations back into their

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Speaker 2: own software as well, And so overall, I think what

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Speaker 2: Deep Seek reminds us is that you know, it's not

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Speaker 2: inevitable that the US is going to lead this technology,

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Speaker 2: that we need to step up. We need to continue

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Speaker 2: to innovate. The American system is very strong in this space.

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Speaker 2: Our funding mechanisms, private funding, our markets, and our tech

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Speaker 2: talent are really strong. But we can't rest on our

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Speaker 2: laurels and sit back. This is a fast moving space

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Speaker 2: and we need to move faster.

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Speaker 1: From your perspective, did you see deep seat as a

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Speaker 1: real leap forward or simply a very clever development of

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Speaker 1: existing capabilities?

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Speaker 2: So its final models are not better than the cutting

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Speaker 2: edge models in the US, they are on par with

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Speaker 2: the cutting models in the US. So the advancements that

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Speaker 2: Deep Seek reached are more in the how do you

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Speaker 2: implement these things in a way that's less expensive. It's

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Speaker 2: actually a very common model for Chinese innovation, taking something

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Speaker 2: that the US has innovated, has created, and doing it cheaper, faster,

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Speaker 2: or at bigger scale. And so I don't see it

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Speaker 2: as a giant forward. I see it as an incremental improvement.

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Speaker 2: And I think some of the techniques that they used

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Speaker 2: are going to help other companies move forward as well.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it's a spur to US innovators to stay

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Speaker 2: on top of things.

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Speaker 1: You posted on x the deep Seek's success reminds us

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Speaker 1: that the AI race is global. What do we have

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Speaker 1: to do to make sure we win it well?

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Speaker 2: In many cases, what we need to do is keep

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Speaker 2: doing what we're doing, but make sure we don't get

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Speaker 2: in our own way as well. We talked a lot

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Speaker 2: about the sort of European model being proved that people

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Speaker 2: are growing increasingly skeptical of it. Unfortunately, in the US

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Speaker 2: we have people who are advancing those types of models,

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Speaker 2: especially at the state regulatory level. So we have over

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Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty AI regulatory bills that have been

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Speaker 2: introduced around the States already this session, and there's just

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Speaker 2: an avalanche of this stuff coming in, including in red

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Speaker 2: states like Texas, for example. I'm flying down to Austin

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Speaker 2: to talk to some people about these bills, and I

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Speaker 2: think the lesson that we need to take is that

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Speaker 2: we need to continue to double down on the American

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Speaker 2: model of permissionless innovation. Copying the European model of regulation

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Speaker 2: or the Chinese model of centralized control, control and command

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Speaker 2: is just not going to work for the US. And

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Speaker 2: what has been working in the US has been working

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Speaker 2: really well.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, does the federal government need to make this a

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Speaker 1: federal issue for the national economy rather than have it

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Speaker 1: broken up in micromanaged by fifty states.

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Speaker 2: I think and AI development, especially at the model level,

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Speaker 2: is a federal issue. The types of concerns that it

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Speaker 2: might raise around national security in particular are obviously federal issues,

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Speaker 2: and so I think outside of even the legal whether

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Speaker 2: or not this is in in interstate or international issue,

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Speaker 2: I think from a policy perspective, this is the type

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Speaker 2: of space that the President should step forward and say

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Speaker 2: this is important enough to the US that we need

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Speaker 2: to be thinking about this on the national level rather

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Speaker 2: than creating a patchwork of fifty different regulatory environments that

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Speaker 2: will slow down innovation and will especially harm the smaller

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Speaker 2: innovators and people who are trying to deploy this day

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Speaker 2: to day and get the benefits from these technologies.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that the way forward for us will

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Speaker 1: be collaborative with other countries or will just in the

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Speaker 1: sense that Google and Facebook, Malmeta, Microsoft, Apple, these were

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Speaker 1: all American companies then spread worldwide. As you look at

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Speaker 1: how AI will probably evolve, to what extent do you

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Speaker 1: think will be American driven and then adopted overseas? And

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Speaker 1: to what extent do you think will be collaborative?

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Speaker 2: So I think it will be American driven and adopted overseas.

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Speaker 2: We have a lead at this point, and if we

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Speaker 2: continue to develop this technology and make it accessible to

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Speaker 2: the world, I think we will be the leaders across

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Speaker 2: the world that it will be our standards and our

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Speaker 2: technology that get adopted. There are some threats to that, however.

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Speaker 2: We have some concerning rules that, for example, the Biden

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Speaker 2: administration put in just before he left office, something called

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Speaker 2: the Diffusion Rule that focuses on AI chips, and it

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Speaker 2: tries to deal with some real concerns about say China

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Speaker 2: misusing these technologies, but it puts a lot of burdens

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Speaker 2: on countries that are strong allies and completely non threats.

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Speaker 2: So we're talking everybody from Israel to Portugal have to

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Speaker 2: follow these what are called Tier two rules to get

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Speaker 2: chips that are US manufactured, and I just don't understand

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Speaker 2: the strategic model for that. Most of the world, other

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Speaker 2: than a small select group of countries, are going to

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Speaker 2: have to go through a lot more paperwork to get

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Speaker 2: US technology, and I don't think that really helps our

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Speaker 2: security model. And I think it actually means that it's

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Speaker 2: a market opportunity for China if they are able to

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Speaker 2: develop these kinds of chips.

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Speaker 1: Do you think we may actually restrict ourselves and our

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Speaker 1: ability to dominate markets.

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Speaker 2: I do. And another example of this is deep Seek's model.

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Speaker 2: For example, is what's called open weights, which means anybody

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Speaker 2: can download these weights and use them on their own computer,

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Speaker 2: on their own software. This type of open source development

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Speaker 2: is really important and it's really useful to researchers and

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Speaker 2: startups who don't want to spend to train their own models.

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Speaker 2: And if we in the US restrict the ability of

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Speaker 2: open weight or open source development, which some of our

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Speaker 2: policies have some implication of doing. So we could lose

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Speaker 2: that market in the world, and I think that would

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Speaker 2: be bad because, somewhat uniquely to technology, these AI models

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Speaker 2: embody values. They're based on language, and so when they're

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Speaker 2: trained in the West, they have more or Western values.

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Speaker 2: And when they're trained in China, for example, the deep

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Speaker 2: Seek models struggle to tell you anything critical about Chinese

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Speaker 2: government and they won't even talk about Tianamen Square and

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Speaker 2: things like that. And so I think it's to the

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Speaker 2: benefit of US security and influence on the world to

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Speaker 2: have our open source models be the ones that are

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Speaker 2: adopted around the world.

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Speaker 1: Open ai, how much does that fit that model?

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Speaker 2: So open ai, despite the name, they have some open

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Speaker 2: source technologies, but overwhelmingly they are a closed source business

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Speaker 2: where you subscribe or sign up for an account and

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Speaker 2: then use the technology that they are providing, rather than

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Speaker 2: downloading it to your own machine and using it. And

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Speaker 2: that's a you know, a totally viable and important business model.

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Speaker 2: It's not that open source is the only way we

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Speaker 2: should be doing this stuff. But open AI's business model

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Speaker 2: right now is not an open source model, so.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't it tell us from it. About this whole

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Speaker 1: rivalry between Elon Musk and Sam Altman. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: almost like a soap opera. They co open AI in

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, supposed to be a nonprofit, Musk leaves. In

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Altman launches a for profit subsidiary, which has

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Speaker 1: made it remarkable. And you know, Musk is now clearly

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Speaker 1: offering a hostile takeover and effect supposedly leading a ninety

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Speaker 1: seven point four billion dollar fund to take it over.

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Speaker 1: What is all this about.

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Speaker 2: That's such a complicated story. It's like a so proper

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Speaker 2: that's been going on for many seasons. At this point,

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of acrimony between Musk and the

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Speaker 2: leadership of the Open AI nonprofit. Musk was very concerned.

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Speaker 2: His main focus with this was how can we build

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Speaker 2: it fast to prevent sort of existential risk And so

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Speaker 2: to him, this wasn't so much about building a company.

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Speaker 2: It was about this safety concern that he had, and

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Speaker 2: I think he thought that some of the choices that

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Speaker 2: were being made weren't the right choices to pursue that goal. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: he has his own rival company, XAI, and as Altman

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Speaker 2: is trying to transition open ai from a model that's

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Speaker 2: a nonprofit model to a for profit company. The way

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Speaker 2: they're doing that is complicated, and it has to value

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Speaker 2: the assets of the nonprofit properly and compensate the nonprofit properly.

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Speaker 2: I see Musk's bid here as largely a sort of

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Speaker 2: lawfare what is already a very complicated process of moving

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Speaker 2: from a nonprofit to a for profit. That is I

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Speaker 2: think the latest valuation's worth potentially three hundred billion dollars,

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Speaker 2: and I think Musk's bid is just raising the costs

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Speaker 2: to do that. He's making it more complicated to do that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how serious the bid is. I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously I think he could get the money together if

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Speaker 2: Altman accepted it. But I don't think Musk had any

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Speaker 2: supposition that Altman or I should be clear the board

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Speaker 2: of the open Ai Foundation would accept this offer. But

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Speaker 2: it does make it more legally complicated for Sam Altman's

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Speaker 2: continued transition of open ai to a for profit company.

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Speaker 1: It's a fascinating story, and Musk at least implies that

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Speaker 1: if he took it over that they would be much

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Speaker 1: more public and much more open. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: if that's true, how does he earn back the ninety

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Speaker 1: seven billion? Right?

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Speaker 2: It's a tough thing, and I think there's somewhat plausible

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Speaker 2: business models, but it does seem like you would have

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Speaker 2: to spin out at some point a for profit of

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Speaker 2: his own, or find some sort of funding mechanism to

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Speaker 2: earn back that money. In some ways, the initial donations

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Speaker 2: that Musk gave to open AI and I don't think

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Speaker 2: you really saw them as business investments, but those are

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Speaker 2: a whole different scale than ninety seven billion dollars. It's

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Speaker 2: hard to get investors in to do charitable work at

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Speaker 2: that scale.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking, Neil. I want to thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining me. I'm sure we're going to come

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Speaker 1: back to you again in the future because the whole

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Speaker 1: concept of the Abundance Institute is so much down the

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Speaker 1: road of what I believe in and what I think

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Speaker 1: is the future of the country. I want to let

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Speaker 1: our listeners know they can find out more about the

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Speaker 1: work you're doing as the head of the AI policy

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00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: at the Abundance Institute by following you on x at

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00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: Neil Underscore Chilson, or by visiting your website at Abundance

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Speaker 1: dot Institute and we'll list all that on our web page.

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Speaker 1: And I'm really grateful you took the time to talk

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Speaker 1: to us.

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Speaker 2: Well. Thank you so much for having me on. It's

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Speaker 2: always a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Neil Chilson. You can learn

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Speaker 1: more about the Abundance Institute on our show page at

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Speaker 1: newsworld dot com. New World is produced by Gayard three

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00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. Our

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Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was

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00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at

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Speaker 1: news World can sign up for my three freeweekly columns

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Speaker 1: at Ganghamstreet sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gangrich.

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Speaker 1: This is neutrald