1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: A warning for listeners, this episode contains discussion of suicide. 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: Please listen with caution and care. In nineteen eighty seven, 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: Gwen Graham was twenty three years old and had high 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: hopes and dreams for her future. She was a natural 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: caretaker and wanted to be a veterinarian. After moving across 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: the country to Michigan, she went to work at a 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: nursing home called Alpine Manor. 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: Gwen liked it there. 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: She enjoyed her coworkers and loved helping people. Gwen men 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: and a woman named Kathy who also worked at the 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: nursing home, and they started a relationship. During that time, 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: some of the patients that Alpine Manor passed away. It 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: wasn't unusual though, Many of the residents were elderly or 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: in poor health and died of natural causes. But months later, 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: after Gwen had broken up with Kathy, she learned that 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: Kathy had accused her of doing the unthinkable. 17 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 3: Let's say, I know the police are coming down to 18 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 3: talk to me. They told me they said, your extra 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 3: friend said that you killed somebody at an earthy home. 20 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 3: And I laughed at him. I said, I can't believe 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 3: he came down here for that bullshion. But then when 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 3: they charged me with four more, that's when I started 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 3: losing it. My name is Gwendolin Graham. I've been incarcerated 24 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 3: in Michigan for thirty five years for something that I 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 3: didn't do, that didn't even happen. 26 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: From LoVa for good. This is wrongful conviction with Maggie 27 00:01:42,560 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: Freeling today. Gwen Graham Gwendolyn Gail Graham was born in 28 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: Santa Maria, California, on August sixth, nineteen sixty three, to 29 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: Mac Wade and Linda Ruth Graham. 30 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 3: I had a normal upbringing. I went to a public school. 31 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:24,279 Speaker 3: I have a younger sister, Corina, and an older brother, Robert. 32 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 3: We were always at the beach. My dad used to 33 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 3: take us down there. He had bought an old vintage truck, 34 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 3: and those kids would be on the back of the 35 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 3: truck or like on the sideboards and stuff, and he'd 36 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 3: be driving around the dunes. He'd let us kids drive, 37 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 3: so we felt grown up and everything. 38 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: Gwen and her siblings were growing up in a farm 39 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: just a few miles from the beach. 40 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 3: We have chickens in the backyard, and it was fun 41 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 3: to have the little chicks when they be born. We 42 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 3: turned the eggs in the incubator and stuff. We had 43 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 3: a ducks. They would follow you around. That's like a 44 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 3: puppy dough would. 45 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: Gwen's younger sister, Karina remembers how Gwen loved and cared 46 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: for these animals. 47 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 4: Watching her take care of her animals and her little pig, Petunia. 48 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 4: She loved that little pig. You know. She had a 49 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 4: dog named Mitzi and she loved that little animal. So 50 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 4: she was always very compassionate. 51 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: But while Gwen cared for everything and everyone around her, 52 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: she was struggling with herself. 53 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 3: I didn't really know what to ask her what was 54 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 3: going on. I felt like there was something. It just 55 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: made me feel real different, probably around seven six and seven, 56 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: because I liked girls, and I knew if that was 57 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: I knew the end that there was something wrong with that, 58 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: because they're supposed to like little boys and I didn't 59 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 3: like little girls. And I didn't know what it was. 60 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 3: I just knew that it was different, and I kept 61 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 3: it to. 62 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: Myself, especially because her family was pretty conservative. They were religious, 63 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: and in their world, being gay was taboo. 64 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 3: My parents had put us in a private Christian school 65 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 3: and My uncle was a head administrator there, and I 66 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: remember at some point there was a discussion about homosexuality 67 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 3: and it was not certainly not in a favorable light. 68 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 3: And I realized at that time that that was me. 69 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 3: And I had a friend at school and I went 70 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 3: and talked to her and I told her I think 71 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 3: I'm gay, and she told her parents about it, and 72 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 3: I believe they contacted mind that's how they found out. 73 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: Gwen doesn't remember much about the discussion she eventually had 74 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: with her parents about her sexuality, but she does remember 75 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: the aftermath. 76 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 3: The philosophy or whatever the means, was just the prey 77 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: it out of you, I guess. My uncle kept me 78 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: after school for I think about three weeks, and we 79 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 3: prayed on it and just prayed about it, talked about it, 80 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 3: and it just never went away. It just didn't happen 81 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 3: like that for me, and that just made me feel 82 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 3: like there was even more wrong with me because that 83 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 3: didn't work. 84 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: So Gwen kept to herself after that. 85 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 3: There used to be, uh, these really really tall trees 86 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 3: across the street from us, and he used to crawl 87 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 3: away into the top of these really tall trees and 88 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 3: look over like the entire city. I felt like I 89 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 3: was on top of the world. That's where I would go. 90 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 3: So I always would go buy some place to be alone. 91 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 4: She was pretty much closed off. 92 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: This is Gwen's sister Karina. Again. 93 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 4: As far as being gay, that's not something that she 94 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 4: and I really talked a whole lot about. I know 95 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 4: that she had her struggles with it. 96 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 3: I would decide I was just gonna go ahead and 97 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 3: pretend like I wasn't and just try to be what 98 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 3: I was supposed to be date date guys, which that 99 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 3: was like super rare. Most of the time. I just 100 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 3: pre didn't like I didn't want to date. It didn't 101 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: bother me, and I just just ignored it. When you know, 102 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 3: I didn't discuss it. They didn't ask. 103 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: When she was in the second grade, Gwen's family moved 104 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: from California to Texas. She lived there until she was 105 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: about sixteen. That's when her parents split up and she 106 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: went back to California to live with her dad. In California, 107 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: Gwen found herself becoming more accepting of her sexuality. 108 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 3: I became acquainted with people that were comfortable with that lifestyle. 109 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 3: They were out in the open about it, and it 110 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 3: made me comfortable to be out in the open about 111 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: it and not be as a you know, like ashamed, 112 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 3: outwardly ashamed, publicly ashamed about what I was. I accepted it. 113 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: That's who I am, and that makes me happy. There's 114 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 3: really nothing I can do about. I can choose to 115 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: be miserable and the rest of my life and live 116 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 3: for everybody else, or just live for me and just 117 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 3: be okay with it. 118 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: When did you find out that Gwen was gay? 119 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 4: That wasn't my later teen years. I guess I was 120 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 4: like many fifteen. She was sixteen. Then I found out, 121 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 4: and I just I didn't have a problem with it. 122 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 4: It didn't change how I felt about her. I've always 123 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 4: loved her just for who she is. 124 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: Gwen moved back to Texas a few years later. She 125 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: soon met a woman from Michigan and the two started dating. 126 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: They decided to move to Michigan together, but when Gwen 127 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: got there, she realized the change was not what she anticipated. 128 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 3: She had told me she had a really good job 129 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 3: either four. I think it was Ford, one of our companies, 130 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 3: and come to find out, she did not. When I 131 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 3: got here, she was on public assistance and felt like 132 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 3: the state owed hood living and she just wasn't going 133 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 3: to work anymore, so I walked into a really bad situation. 134 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: Did you start working at the nursing home right away? 135 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 3: Yes? I did. I took the first job. I hit 136 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 3: the ground run. 137 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: And Gwen took a job at Alpine Manor Nursing Home 138 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: in Walker, a suburb of Grand Rapids. Alpine Manor Nursing 139 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: Home was a safe haven for its residents and its workers. 140 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: Many people who identified as queer or LGBTQ worked there. 141 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: It was a comfortable environment where they felt free to 142 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: joke around with each other and pursue all kinds of relationships. 143 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: I think it was mostly the women. There was a 144 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 3: few men there. It was an intimidating universe. So I 145 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 3: was just really shy. 146 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: But soon Gwen made friends and started socializing. A woman 147 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: named Don became one of Gwen's first friends. Don's roommate 148 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: also worked there at the nursing home. Her name was 149 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: Kathy Wood. 150 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: So she became a friend. What did you like about her? 151 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: What was your friendship like? 152 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 3: Well, Kathy was very intelligent, a lot of fun to 153 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 3: be around. 154 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: At the time, both Gwen and Kathy were getting fed 155 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: up with their respective partners. 156 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 3: Don had lost her job and she was just sitting 157 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 3: around the house doing nothing, and my Griffert didn't want 158 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 3: to work. She didn't want to do anything, she didn't 159 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 3: want to move forward in life, and I just felt 160 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: like over time her and I decided that well, she 161 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: didn't want to support Don anymore, and I didn't want 162 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 3: to support the person I was with. So I'm moving 163 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: with Kathy. After she made Don leave. 164 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: They started out his roommates. Gwen was seeing another woman 165 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: who worked at the nursing home, and Kathy was married 166 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: to her husband Ken, but Kathy and Ken were going 167 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: through a rocky time. 168 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 3: She said that her husband was coming over that night 169 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 3: to pick up some of his things, and I said, well, 170 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: I'm going out on the eight with a girl, and 171 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 3: so I went over to the girl's house. And I 172 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: wasn't over there at the girl's house very long, and 173 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: Kathy had called and she was hysterical and saying that 174 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 3: Ken was going to hurt her and please hurry back, 175 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 3: and she was just really hysterical. I said, yeah, I'm coming. 176 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: Gwen headed over ready to go to battle for her friend, 177 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 1: but she. 178 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 3: Stops me at the door and she's tea saying everything's okay, 179 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 3: everything's okay. So I walked in and Ken was sitting there. 180 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 3: He stood up and he introduced himself. He was really polite, 181 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 3: really well spoken, and we sat down and had a 182 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 3: friendly conversation. And the whole time I'm thinking about the 183 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: phone conversation and what happened is that. 184 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: After Ken left, Gwen asked Kathy what that was all about. 185 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: Kathy tried to explain, but things weren't adding up. 186 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 3: It didn't take me too long to figure out that 187 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 3: she had done that because she was it was manipulative 188 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 3: and she just didn't want me out with the girl. 189 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about that, like, about Kathy 190 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 2: being manipulative and a liar. Is this like one of 191 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: the first times you started to realize. 192 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 3: That that wasn't the first incident. I thought, well, it 193 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 3: can't really be that bad. I mean, the girl likes 194 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: me and stuff, and we ended up being together. 195 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: Gwen really liked Kathy, but as time went on, she 196 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: started noticing that Kathy was becoming increasingly jealous and manipulative. 197 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 3: Over time, thanks to God to be more vicious, more calculated, 198 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: and not really good motive. Sometime just took the minute 199 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 3: to sit down and think about the thing that she 200 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 3: did figure out why she did him. 201 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: Gwen remembers one day she was with her good friend 202 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: Lisa outside of the nurse home waiting for Kathy to 203 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: get off work. When Kathy saw them together, she was 204 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: suspicious and vindictive. 205 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 3: She ended up calling Lisa's cousin and telling him that 206 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: Lisa had confided in her that the baby that they 207 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: had together was not his, that she had had an 208 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 3: affair on him. She just really visious stuff like it. 209 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 3: It wasn't true, but this caused the conflict with him, 210 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 3: and I do believe they ended up not together. Her 211 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: and her husband ended up splitting up over it. 212 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 4: If I was to pick a partner for Gwen, she 213 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 4: would not be absolutely not be one that I would 214 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 4: choose for her. Some of the things that she'd done 215 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 4: to Gwen, you just don't do to somebody that you 216 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 4: say you care about on your love. 217 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: Gwen dated Kathy for nine months before they split up. 218 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 3: I just got tired of all the the manipulating, the games, 219 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 3: and I just couldn't do it anymore. I just wanted 220 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 3: to be happy. I didn't want to be in this 221 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 3: situation anymore, and I rubbed her. 222 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: Gwen and Cathy agreed to remain friends after the breakup. 223 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: Gwen then left Alpine Manor for another job and started 224 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: seriously dating another woman from the nursing home named Heather. 225 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: The two decided to move out of Michigan and out 226 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: of respect for their friendship. Gwen told Kathy the. 227 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: News, and I thought that everything was okay. I told her, 228 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 3: I'm going to Texas and I'm going with Heather, and 229 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: she seemed to be okay with everything. 230 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: So you thought everything was fine. So you and Heather 231 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: go to Texas and then tell me what happens. 232 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 3: Last thing I know, the police are coming down to 233 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 3: talk to me about her, saying that I killed people 234 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 3: at a nursing home or killed a person up to 235 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: nursing home as I was started out. 236 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: In August of nineteen eighty seven, around the same time 237 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: that Gwen moved away with Heather, Kathy told her now 238 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: ex husband Ken a shocking tale. Between January and April 239 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: that year, while Gwen and Kathy were still working at 240 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: Alpine Manor, a number of the patients passed away. Among 241 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: them were sixty year old Marguerite Chambers, May Mason and 242 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: Bell Burkhard, who were both in their seventies, and Edith 243 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: Cook and Myrtle Luce, who were in their nineties. Like 244 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: most of the residents at the nursing home, these women 245 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: were either elderly, ill, or both, and their causes of 246 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: death were listed as natural, such as Alzheimer's and heart attack. 247 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: But Kathy told her ex husband these five women hadn't 248 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: died of natural causes. She told him she and Gwen 249 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: had plotted to murder the women as part of a 250 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: lover's pact that would bind them together for life. Kathy 251 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: painted Gwen as the mass remind of the crime, saying 252 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: that she herself had acted as a lookout while Gwen 253 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: killed the patients by smothering them. Over a year later, 254 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: in October nineteen eighty eight, Ken went to authorities and 255 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: told them what Kathy had said. His report launched an 256 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: entirely new investigation into these women's deaths. Three of the 257 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: bodies had been cremated, but the medical examiner, doctor Stephen Cole, 258 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: had the other two exhumed in order to re examine them. 259 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: Upon this second look, doctor Cole determined that these two 260 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: women had died from asphyxiation. He proceeded to change the 261 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: manners of death on both their death certificates, from natural 262 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: causes to homicide. Quickly, the media started buzzing about the 263 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: case in salacious detail. Newspapers seized on Gwen and Kathy's sexuality, 264 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: depicting them as a pair of lesbian serial killers. 265 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 3: And it was in the paper and they were saying 266 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 3: that people were killed at the nursing home. And I 267 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 3: wasn't too worried about it. I never really thought it 268 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: was going to go anywhere. So when they showed up 269 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: at the door, when they came to talk to me, 270 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 3: that that was sound of ridiculous. They told me, they said, 271 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 3: your ext girlfriend said that you killed somebody at a 272 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 3: nursing home. And I left him. I couldn't believe, I said, 273 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 3: I can't believe he came down here for that bullshit. 274 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: But on December fourth, nineteen eighty eight, Gwen was arrested 275 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: for murder. When she was arrested and brought back to Michigan, 276 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: Gwen still thought things would be cleared up, that the 277 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: police would realize Kathy was lying and that she would 278 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: be released, but that didn't happen. The police and prosecutors 279 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: then used doctor Cole's conclusions to bolster the story that 280 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: Kathy was telling, saying that the other three women also 281 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: must have died by asphyxiation. 282 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 3: When they charged me with four I think four or more. 283 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 3: That's when I started losing it. I couldn't believe that 284 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: it got as far as it did. 285 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 286 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making 287 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 288 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: in the communities where they work and live. In light 289 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and 290 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, 291 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: the AIG pro Bono Program provides free legal services and 292 00:17:45,600 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. Gwen's trial star 293 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: in September of nineteen eighty nine. The state's case was 294 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: presented by Assistant Kent County Prosecutor David Scheiber. He started 295 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: by telling the jury about the alleged lover's packed that 296 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: Kathy had described. 297 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 5: This idea of the lover's packed, this lover's tryst, this 298 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 5: homicidal lesbian duo was extremely shocking and salacious. At the time. 299 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: This is Elizabeth Cole, clinical fellow at the Michigan Innocence Clinic. 300 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,479 Speaker 5: It was no secret at the time that Gwen was 301 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 5: in a relationship with another woman, that she had dated 302 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 5: other women in the past, and that she identified as gay, 303 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 5: and that played a really large part of trial. It 304 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 5: was sort of central to the prosecutor's theme. 305 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: And that's how the prosecutor targeted his audience. 306 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 5: I mean, Grand Rapids is beautiful, but it is not 307 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 5: the most liberal of towns, especially not in the eighties. 308 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 5: As Gwen has told me before, there's a church on 309 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 5: every street corner, and we have seen in the transcripts 310 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 5: this intense undertone of homophobia throughout. 311 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: Schiper used that to his full advantage. When questioning Gwen 312 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: on the stand. 313 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 5: The prosecutor asks her about her relationship with Kathy and 314 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 5: whether or not that relationship was satisfying. And there was 315 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 5: a lot of questions about whether or not Gwen had 316 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 5: attempted to seduce other women, and whether or not Gwen 317 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 5: had been faithful to Kathy in this relationship. And I 318 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 5: think that all of these little things really tried to 319 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 5: show how the prosecution was trying to portray Gwen, which 320 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 5: was this controlling, corruptive individual who has no sense of 321 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 5: morals and who is a day from every aspect. 322 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 3: They spent more time to just going over details of 323 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 3: my sex life, saying it was kinky. And I was 324 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 3: thinking if it was my person, my grandma, that had 325 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 3: been killed and they were talking about that, I would 326 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: have been out in the courtroom and probably would have 327 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 3: set up said well, the fun does I got to 328 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 3: do with anything? Can we get back to, you know, 329 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 3: my grandma? 330 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: But the actual evidence against Gwen was thin. It was 331 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: a story that started with Kathy. And before trial, when 332 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: Gwen and Kathy were in holding cells next to each other, 333 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: Gwen says she had a chance to ask Kathy about it. 334 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 3: I said, why are you doing this? She said, because 335 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 3: you hurt me, because you lied to me, because you 336 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 3: cheated on me. I said, there is nothing I can 337 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 3: do to change that, and she started She started crying 338 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 3: and saying, but I loved you, and started banging her 339 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 3: head on the wall in there, and so I was 340 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 3: calling the guard and telling them she's over there hurting herself. 341 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: After that, Gwen thought that Kathy would come clean on 342 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:09,719 Speaker 1: the stand. 343 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 3: That's not what she did at all. I don't know 344 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 3: what happened to her between that and getting on the stand. 345 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 3: All of a sudden, she was totally composed and nailing 346 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 3: me to the cloth. 347 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: Kathy testified as to what she told Ken and eventually 348 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: told police that she and Gwen plotted to kill the 349 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: women in a lover's pact. The medical examiner, doctor Cole, 350 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: testified that the cause of death for the two women 351 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: he re examined was asphyxiation, and finally, witnesses from the 352 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: nursing home said they had heard Gwen and Kathy making 353 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: jokes about killing patients. So what did the defense do 354 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: at trial? How did they try and refute this? 355 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 5: So the defense really tried, I think, to poke holes 356 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 5: in every space that they could. 357 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: Gwen's defense attorney, James Piazza, started with Kathy. 358 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 5: The defense really tried to show that this was nothing 359 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 5: more than a story made up by Kathy, but he 360 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 5: was limited in what he was able to do. He 361 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 5: requested mental health records on Kathy to be able to 362 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 5: discuss that with her. So the judge says, after reviewing 363 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 5: the records himself, that he was denying the motion for 364 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 5: her psychological records to be revealed. 365 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: The judge determined that Kathy's mental health records would be 366 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: irrelevant to the defense and could potentially even hurt their case. 367 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: Despite this being an attorney's decision to make, the judge 368 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: maintained that having these files available might actually help the 369 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: prosecution's case because it would help argue that Kathy was 370 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: susceptible to manipulate by Gwen. After an unsuccessful attempt at 371 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: dismantling Kathy's credibility, defense attorney Piazza then pointed out the 372 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: homophobia that was on display in the courtroom. 373 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 5: Everyone's sex life is not important because we're talking about 374 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 5: murders here, and so I think he tried to sort 375 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 5: of minimize the idea that because everyone is gay or 376 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 5: was in a relationship with one another, that that meant 377 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 5: something in this case. 378 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: Then Piazza focused on doctor Cole. On cross examination. Piazza 379 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 1: questioned Cole about changing the manner of death for two 380 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: of the women on their death certificates. Did he see 381 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: any evidence in these two bodies that it was a homicide. 382 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 5: Based upon his testimony at trial. The short answer is no. 383 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 5: There were a number of other things that these people 384 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 5: could have passed away from. They were at a nursing home. 385 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 5: Most of them had multiple maladies that could have been 386 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 5: the reason they passed away, and doctor Cole at trial 387 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 5: testified that there really wasn't any typical signs of smothering, 388 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 5: which was the allegations that each of these individuals had 389 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 5: been smothered, such as burst capillaries, bruising on the face 390 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 5: or in the mouth, things like that. He said there 391 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 5: was no evidence of that, but based on what Kathy stated, 392 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 5: he determined that it was a homicide. Each time. 393 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: Doctor Cole admitted that if it wasn't for Cathy's confession, 394 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: which he knew was the reason for the re examinations, 395 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: he would not have determined the cause of death to 396 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: be asphyxiation as for the other three women, because there 397 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: had been no reexaminations. Piazza asked the judge to determine 398 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: that there wasn't sufficient evidence for the jury to conclude 399 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: that they were murdered. His request was denied. Finally, Gwen 400 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: took the stand to defend herself, but it didn't go 401 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: over as she hoped. 402 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 5: I think she feels like she didn't get to explain 403 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 5: her side of the story the way that she wanted to. 404 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 5: When she was testifying at trial. I think that she 405 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 5: tried to explain a lot of the things that were presented, 406 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 5: like the joke about killing people. 407 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: Gwen admits that the atmosphere at the nursing home sometimes 408 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: led to gallows humor. 409 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 3: I mean, there was things that we did that were 410 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 3: silly and just just to get through. It's a real 411 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 3: hard place to work where you know, people pass away 412 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 3: and people were sick in there, and you know that 413 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 3: this is not a place that people were coming to 414 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 3: get too muths or better. 415 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: What she was talking about was something witnesses testified to 416 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: hearing at the nursing home. Gwen says this joke started 417 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: with a horror movie Motel Hell, that a group of 418 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: them had watched at a party. In the film, motel 419 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: owners killed their guests and sold their bodies as meat 420 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: to annoying customers. 421 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 3: And so I believe it was two of the boys 422 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 3: at the party that started saying, well, the body is 423 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 3: at a nursing home, We're about doing a chili cook off. 424 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 3: And that's just where it started. It just went from there, 425 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,239 Speaker 3: and every time that somebody would die, it was just 426 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 3: a joke that we're going to have a chili cook Off. 427 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 3: That's all it ever was. 428 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 2: How do you feel about making those jokes? 429 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: Now? 430 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 3: I mean really awful, really awful, Yeah, really really awful 431 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 3: considering where it went. I can't even imagine that if 432 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 3: it had been my grandma or my mother and I 433 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 3: heard her stuff like that and people making jokes about it, 434 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 3: and you know, her death, and you know, I'd the. 435 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 6: Horrible about it. 436 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 5: I think she tried to explain that, but after so 437 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 5: many people had testified to it, it sort of fell flat. 438 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 5: And I think that Gwen wasn't able really to talk 439 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 5: about what it was that she wanted to talk about, 440 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 5: which was her innocence. And so looking at Gwen's testimony, 441 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 5: it seems like they tried to address all of the 442 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 5: issues that had been presented at trial. They sort of 443 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 5: went point by point and tried to address every conversation 444 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 5: she had had with every witness, and I just think 445 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 5: that the impact wasn't felt by the jury, that sincerity 446 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 5: wasn't felt by the jury. 447 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 1: Cathy took a plea deal of second degree murder in 448 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: exchange for her testimony against Gwen. She was sentenced to 449 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: twenty to forty years on September twentieth, nineteen eighty nine, 450 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: Gwen was convicted of all counts and given six concurrent 451 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: sentences of life without parole. 452 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: Were you surprised when you found out she was convicted 453 00:27:59,040 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 2: of this? 454 00:27:59,600 --> 00:27:59,719 Speaker 5: Oh? 455 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I cried. I still cry, and I feel like 456 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 4: she was railroaded. 457 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 1: It was fifteen years before Karina was able to visit 458 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: Gwen in prison. At first, she didn't recognize her sister. 459 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 4: I know she was like twenty five or so when 460 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 4: she went in, but her appearance had changed. Of course 461 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 4: mine had changed. So I mean I remember standing in 462 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 4: the middle of the room just looking around, just like 463 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 4: calling her name, and then I looked at this lady 464 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 4: sedued her chair and she was just crying that I 465 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 4: knew it was her, And so they allowed us to hug. 466 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 4: Who were like, it's really you, You're really here. I'm like, yeah, 467 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 4: I'm early here. To shoe is so beautiful. It was. 468 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 4: It was really nice, really great a moment. 469 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: Goud. 470 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 4: I'll never forget to be able to see her again. 471 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 3: I had a really hard time coping with how did 472 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 3: this happen? I was in shock for probably years. I 473 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 3: was just like an autopilot. I went through the motions. 474 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 3: There were times when I just couldn't do it anymore. 475 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 3: I just felt like I just couldn't do it anymore. 476 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 3: I tried to hang myself a couple of times, and 477 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 3: officers found me and cut me down, and I quit 478 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 3: trying because I figured, well, if guy's not going to 479 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 3: let me kill myself, unless be here for something, so 480 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 3: let's get to it. I figured out through therapy that 481 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 3: out is for me fixing other things. I spent a 482 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 3: lot of time fixing other things and helping other people 483 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 3: and fixing their things because I have an inability to 484 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 3: fix my own no matter what I tried. I can't 485 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 3: seem to to fix this to make people see that. 486 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 3: How am I ever going to make him see him? 487 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:26,959 Speaker 3: But I didn't do this. 488 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: Although Gwen didn't think she could fix her wrongful conviction, 489 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: she still tried. Gwen wrote letters to experts, attorneys, and 490 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: innocence projects. In twenty twenty two, Elizabeth Cole was handed 491 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: Gwen's case to review by the Michigan Innocence Clinic. 492 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 5: When you read the story of the case, it doesn't 493 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 5: seem fully plausible. It seems really fantastical, like it would 494 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 5: make great TV. And usually that stands out to us 495 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 5: The other thing about this case in particular, and I 496 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 5: think why we decided to investigate, is that this case 497 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 5: is based around some very weak evidence. 498 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: Currently, Elizabeth and the Michigan Innocence Clinic are looking at 499 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: two specific angles that reinforce Helgwen's case was set up 500 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: to fail. First, they're exploring how doctor Cole was prejudiced 501 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: by outside information given to him prior to the re 502 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: examination of the two bodies. 503 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 5: Each of these women were determined to have been murdered 504 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 5: by smothering, and doctor Cole was very clear about the 505 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 5: fact that that all came from his conversations with the 506 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 5: police and from Cathy's statement, which he believed. I can't 507 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 5: stress this enough. There is no medical basis for the 508 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 5: homicide determination, and this was testified to at trial and 509 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 5: then reconfirmed during a review by another medical examiner some 510 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 5: years later that there is no medical evidence to support 511 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 5: a theory of smothering. 512 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: Elizabeth says, the bottom line is any theory of a 513 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: case should not be shared with medical examiners or similar 514 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: personnel until after they make unbiased judgments, because this information 515 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: can and likely will affect their opinions. The second avenue 516 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: that the clinic is focusing on, is the rampant homophobia 517 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: exhibited throughout the trial. 518 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 5: This was an incredibly salacious trial. The testimony was especially salacious, 519 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 5: and so there was sort of this connection for the 520 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 5: prosecution between like this lack of morality and Gwen's sexual preferences. 521 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 5: This idea of homophobia that was played very heavily throughout 522 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 5: trial really colors everything else. It colors her relationships with 523 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 5: the people who testified. It colors who she is. It 524 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 5: colors police opinion of her, It colors juror's opinion of her. 525 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 5: It certainly colored the media's opinion of her. That colors 526 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 5: every aspect of this case, and so that impacted Gwen 527 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 5: and really prevented her from having a fair trial. 528 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: The Michigan Innocence Clinic is currently writing a clemency petition 529 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: on Gwen's behalf that will focus on these two issues, 530 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,959 Speaker 1: with the ultimate goal of getting Gwen out of prison. 531 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, Kathy was released on parole, but only 532 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: after spending almost thirty years in prison based on a 533 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: lie she told to put Gwen behind bars. To this day, 534 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: Kathy has not admitted she lied. Why do you think 535 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: she's stuck with the story for so long or forever, I. 536 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 3: Thought along and hard about it when she said that 537 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 3: we were killing all people's nursing home, and for her 538 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 3: to sit there and tell anybody in the world that 539 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 3: it was a lie and everything, and then she would 540 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 3: have to have that on her shoulders for the rest 541 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 3: of the life, and I just don't think that she 542 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 3: can live with it. I think that she was okay 543 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 3: with the time that she did because because I'm here 544 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 3: for nothing, I think she was okay with her like 545 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 3: she was paying her own little price for what she 546 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 3: did to me. And as long as she never says anything, 547 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 3: she'll always be in control of my life. So always 548 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 3: be in control. 549 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: When you do get out, What do you hope to 550 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 2: do with you, with your future, with your life. 551 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 3: I'm going to take my sister walk around the world. 552 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 3: I want to just take her around the world and 553 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,479 Speaker 3: travel because she works so hard also does work, work, work, 554 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 3: and I just want her to slow down and have 555 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 3: fond and I just want to spend time with her. 556 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 3: The older I get, the more I realize that if 557 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 3: I walk out of here, I'm not going to have 558 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 3: a lot of time left. So my fucking list to 559 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 3: get shorter. And shorter. I'm not a killer. I'm a 560 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 3: good person. I care about people. Though I felt like 561 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 3: the world that I cared so much about left me 562 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 3: behind and forgot about me. I still care. 563 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: If you want to help Gwen, you can contact Michigan 564 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 1: Governor Gretchen Whitmer in support of Gwen and her clemency petition. 565 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 1: You can also contact the Michigan Innocence Clinic to share 566 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: your support for Gwen. These links will be in our bio. 567 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: Next time on Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling, we'll revisit 568 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: our season one episode with death row prisoner Hank Skinner. 569 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 6: But I think with the evidence we have now that 570 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 6: they're going to have to let me go and they're 571 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 6: going to have to acknowledge that I'm innocent. I think, 572 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 6: after all I've suffered, that I deserve a chance. I 573 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 6: deserve to be with my wife. I deserve to have 574 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 6: a life. I deserve to be released and get the 575 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 6: hell out of here, and I won't out. 576 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: Hank died in February at the prison hospital in Galveston, Texas, 577 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: from complications following surgery for an aggressive brain tumor. 578 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 2: Up until his. 579 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 1: Death, he continued to maintain his innocence and to fight 580 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: for exoneration. Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. 581 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the 582 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: links in our bio to see how you can help. 583 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and 584 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: Kevin Wurtis, as well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea, 585 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: producer Lyla Robinson, and story editor Sonya Paul. The show 586 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: is edited and mixed by Annie Chelsea, with additional production 587 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: by Jeff Cliburn and Connor Hall. The music in this 588 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 589 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 590 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,799 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 591 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 592 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 593 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie 594 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: Freeling is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in 595 00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one