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Speaker 1: Have you ever seen CSI Miami, Because I have and

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Speaker 1: it's incredible. And one actress that is especially incredible is

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Speaker 1: Eva LaRue. Now, what you may not know is that

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Speaker 1: this screen star and her little daughter have been stalked,

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Speaker 1: stalked with threats to rape and kill her, to rape

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Speaker 1: her little daughter. I have a daughter. I think I'd

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Speaker 1: lose my mind if someone said that to me about

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Speaker 1: my daughter or my son. And how she live for

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Speaker 1: twelve years with this threat hanging over her and get

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Speaker 1: up and perform in front of the camera and raise

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Speaker 1: her child the way that she did. This woman has

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Speaker 1: got to have nerves of steel for Pete's sake. I

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Speaker 1: Meancy Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Serious XM one

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Speaker 1: eleven twelve years. This woman, this star stalked by a

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Speaker 1: maniac threatening unspeakable acts or not only her but her

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Speaker 1: little girl. Take a listen to Eva on Access. The

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Speaker 1: letters started coming just totally out of the blue, and

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Speaker 1: they would detail the most grotesque, deviant, nightmarish detail. He

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Speaker 1: was going to disembowel and dismember us both slowly. He

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Speaker 1: was going to kidnap my then five year old and

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Speaker 1: myself I was a single mom of the time, and

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Speaker 1: that he was gonna hold us hostage, keep us as

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Speaker 1: sex slaves. He was obsessed with impregnating my baby. Okay

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Speaker 1: whoa Okay, i'bsessed with raping and impregnating her baby, girdle,

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Speaker 1: holding her hostage, and keeping her and her daughter as

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Speaker 1: sex slaves. That was Eva speaking to Access joining me

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Speaker 1: right now and all Star panelt of a guest but

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Speaker 1: special guest Evil LaRue, Emmy Award winning actress. You can

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Speaker 1: find her at evil LaRue dot com. She's also on

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Speaker 1: Insta and Twitter. Eva. I just I don't know why

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Speaker 1: if I should try to rush toward you to get

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Speaker 1: your autograph or hug you and pat your back and

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Speaker 1: tell you how sorry I am after everything you've been through.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've read your story, but what really got

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Speaker 1: me is the threats on your daughter. I cannot even

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Speaker 1: and imagine that happening. When did this whole thing start?

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Speaker 1: This this whole thing started in two thousand and seven, um,

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Speaker 1: when I got the very first letter. But you're absolutely right,

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Speaker 1: Like the the only job that we have as parents

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Speaker 1: is to keep our children safe, and when that is

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Speaker 1: taken away from you, by all counts, um, and every

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Speaker 1: day you don't know if you can keep your only child,

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Speaker 1: say you you you feel like you've completely you complete,

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Speaker 1: completely failed. It's one it's one thing when it's talking

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Speaker 1: threats are coming to you, that has its own um

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Speaker 1: terroristic fear that comes with it, you know, every every day.

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Speaker 1: But when it's when it's aimed at your daughter, your

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Speaker 1: baby girl, you know, because it's all started happening when

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Speaker 1: she's five. Now she's twenty, but so her entire um,

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Speaker 1: you know, for me to um you know, her her

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Speaker 1: entire growing up, she's had this fear, of this anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Although she didn't know what was in the letters when

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Speaker 1: she was little, I still had to make her very

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Speaker 1: aware of keeping her head on a swivel, of knowing

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Speaker 1: as much as she could that there are people out

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Speaker 1: there that might want to take her, that might want

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Speaker 1: to take me, that you know, that they're threatening us.

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Speaker 1: But I never let her know what was in the

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Speaker 1: letters until much later when she was a team. And

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Speaker 1: even so she didn't find out about some of the

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Speaker 1: most famous things he wanted to do to us until

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Speaker 1: we were actually in the courtroom that day, because I

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Speaker 1: didn't want those her perseperating on that her entire life,

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Speaker 1: you know, and during her formulative bleak years, even LaRue

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Speaker 1: Star c Sign Miami and so much more. I'm just

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Speaker 1: trying to get my mind around what you must have

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Speaker 1: thought when you got the first letter. Were they not

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Speaker 1: signed by quote Freddie Krueger they were? I think I

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Speaker 1: think he thought that was funny. I think he thought

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Speaker 1: that was a joke. There were many of the letters

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Speaker 1: that said, you know you're a CSI come find me

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Speaker 1: haunting you. Take a listen to our friend Mario Lopez.

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Speaker 1: We all know Mario at Access Listen. Most of the

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Speaker 1: stalker's threats are far too vile to share on television,

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Speaker 1: and they eventually began to mention Eva's young daughter, Kaya,

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Speaker 1: who was only five years old at the time, stating,

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Speaker 1: I would think you would want to stop me for

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Speaker 1: your daughter, c You should be very scared of me,

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Speaker 1: you know. Very often Eva, My children, my twins John

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Speaker 1: Damon Lucy are old enough to go online now and

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Speaker 1: they have gone on and they said, Mom, why did

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Speaker 1: this person say this about you? They'll be like you're ugly,

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Speaker 1: why are you on TV? Or I hate you should die?

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Speaker 1: And I try to say, listen you know what, they're

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Speaker 1: always people. They're gonna hate you and dislike you no

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Speaker 1: matter what you know. And they say, Mom, you're trying

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Speaker 1: to fight the bag, as I know, but it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: That's how everybody doesn't see you the way you see yourself, ignored,

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Speaker 1: They don't even know you. Just forget it, because in

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Speaker 1: life you're going to have to deal with people that bully,

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Speaker 1: try to bully you, or threaten you or make you

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Speaker 1: feel bad. But when you got that letter, that first letter,

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Speaker 1: did you think, well, I'll never meet him, I'll never

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Speaker 1: see him in person, or did you think, wow, this

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Speaker 1: is a real threat. Oh my god, No, I thought

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Speaker 1: immediately it was a real threat. I had no idea

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Speaker 1: where he was, where the letter was coming from. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know if he lived down the street. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know if he was already following me. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: if I didn't know what he knew about me, like

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Speaker 1: where I worked, where she went to school. We didn't

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Speaker 1: know anything, and that was where the greatest fear was,

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Speaker 1: and we were constantly looking over our shoulder. We didn't

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Speaker 1: know if he was going to show up on the

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Speaker 1: doorstep at any at any moment at the time, David

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Speaker 1: Carusoe had to stalker and Emily Procter had a stalker,

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Speaker 1: and their stalkers they knew who their stalkers were, not

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Speaker 1: that that was better. That's the problem with stalking. It's

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Speaker 1: such an amorphous. There's so many gradations of it, right,

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Speaker 1: and it's each person's story is so very different. David

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Speaker 1: Carusoe stalker lived in Europe, was madly in love with him,

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Speaker 1: and when he didn't, you know, respond to any of

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Speaker 1: her letters, she started saying, I'm going to blow up

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Speaker 1: your house. I'm going to kidnap your kid from college.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to hold her hostage until you come and like,

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Speaker 1: marry me and love me. And she ended up being

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Speaker 1: put on the no fly zone. But this went on

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Speaker 1: for months. A month. He was scared to death. He

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Speaker 1: was scared to emil A. Proctor, her stalker showed up

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Speaker 1: to her house, walked in her house, but was a nice,

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Speaker 1: kindly stalker, so it was it didn't you know, nobody

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Speaker 1: was too worried for her, which is shocking because people,

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Speaker 1: I mean, as you know, for all the stories, people

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Speaker 1: go from being a nice, kindly peeping tom to a

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Speaker 1: murderer in not much time I had one of my

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Speaker 1: I guess health place talker was the stereotypical. He thought

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Speaker 1: I was sending him messages over the airwaves, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't think much of it until he showed up in

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Speaker 1: the lobby of CNN in New York with his suitcase

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Speaker 1: us to start our life together. This was after I

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Speaker 1: was married and had the twins. Okay, guys, take a

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Speaker 1: listen again to our friend, a Mario Lopez. She's beloved

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Speaker 1: for her role as Maria Santos on All My Children

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Speaker 1: and as Detective Natalia boa Vista on the hit show

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Speaker 1: CSI Miami. Eva played a DNA analyst, which became a

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Speaker 1: cruel irony when she started receiving letters from a stalker

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Speaker 1: during her second full season in two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 1: and the FBI was unable to determine who was sending them. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that kind of stumps me right there. Let me go

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Speaker 1: out to Stephen Kramer, a former FBI now lawyer president

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Speaker 1: Indigo Solutions. Steven, when you get a written letter like

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Speaker 1: Eva LaRue did well many of them. We can't find

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Speaker 1: out where the postmarks from. Get DNA off the stamp, nothing,

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Speaker 1: no fingerprints. Oh of course you could I mean that

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Speaker 1: was one of the things that was done early on

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, is getting the DNA off of

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Speaker 1: the envelopes, off of the stamps, and the FBI was

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Speaker 1: able to get DNA and they took that DNA, they

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Speaker 1: put it into the National DNA Index System, which is called,

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Speaker 1: as you probably know, the CODAS system, and there was

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Speaker 1: no hit and it went on for ten years like that.

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Speaker 1: Where do you think they got the DNA off the stamp?

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Speaker 1: Steven believe it was off the stamp on some of

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Speaker 1: the letters, or off the envelope. Some of the envelopes

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Speaker 1: didn't have DNA on it and so they have to

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Speaker 1: get it from a different envelope. But actually they got

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Speaker 1: dozens of samples. There were thirty seven letters, right Evah, No,

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Speaker 1: and there were more than that. Somebody said that there

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Speaker 1: was really yeah, there was. Somebody reported that there a seven,

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Speaker 1: but there's been some inaccuracies in some of the reports.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, no, there were there were more than one

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Speaker 1: hundred letters that came over twelve years. Oh my stars. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's go out to Stephen Bush joining me, former FBI

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Speaker 1: Special Agent and CEO of Indago Solutions. Steven, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. I guess when these now over

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Speaker 1: one hundred letters came at the beginning, we didn't have

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Speaker 1: touched DNA. Yeah, Nancy, that's right. The DNA was taken

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Speaker 1: off of these letters from the licked portion of the

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Speaker 1: envelopes in most cases and in some cases from the stamps.

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Speaker 1: And if Steve Kramer mentioned already, each time those profiles,

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Speaker 1: they were str profiles, the ones that go into codas.

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Speaker 1: The FBI put those profiles into codas, and that produced

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Speaker 1: what we call a case to case match. So what

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Speaker 1: it told us was it said, Hey, the same guy

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Speaker 1: that sent the first letter sent the second, and the

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Speaker 1: third and the fourth, but we don't know his identity.

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Speaker 1: We don't know who that person is because his identity

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Speaker 1: is not in coodus although his DnaA got it. You

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Speaker 1: put his DNA in basically off the stamps on the

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Speaker 1: sunderplus letters of threats to Eva. But he obviously either

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Speaker 1: hadn't been arrested or had a government job where he

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Speaker 1: had to give DNA, so you couldn't get a match.

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Speaker 1: I get it, I get it. Crime stories with Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace Eva LaRue joining me as you heard earlier, star

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Speaker 1: on All My Children on CSI Miami. It goes on

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Speaker 1: and on all of her hits, but yet she was

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Speaker 1: stalked all these years and her daughter. For all of

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Speaker 1: you out there listening now that have been stalked, think

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Speaker 1: about it. Here we have this glamorous Hollywood star and

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Speaker 1: evil with FBI consultants. This guy is hard to stop evil.

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Speaker 1: What were the original threats in the letters? I heard

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Speaker 1: Mario Lopez say he couldn't even say them on TV.

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Speaker 1: And how did they develop over the next hundred letters?

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Speaker 1: You know, right out of the gate they were They

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Speaker 1: were really horrifyingly deviant and evil, I mean, and they

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Speaker 1: would even talk about um, Satanic rituals and you know,

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Speaker 1: marrying us both in and holding us um the hostage

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Speaker 1: of sex slaves and impregnating my daughter and then UM

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Speaker 1: and then in in literally nightmarish detail, talk about how

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Speaker 1: he was going to you know, continually rape and then

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Speaker 1: disembowel and dismember my daughter in front of me and

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Speaker 1: then do the same to me. So it just it

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Speaker 1: would it would seemed to always be some variation on

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Speaker 1: the thing. Every single letter. Were they coming to your

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Speaker 1: office or your home? Initially, the very first letter went

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Speaker 1: to my manager's office. He didn't have my home address,

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Speaker 1: thank god at the time, and they were going to

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Speaker 1: my manager's office, and then eventually he found my home.

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Speaker 1: When when it first happened, I was so scared. I

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Speaker 1: was literally I was absolutely terrified. And I had a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks left at that point at the SI

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Speaker 1: Miami before we went on hiatus that year, and the

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Speaker 1: second we went on hiatus, a friend of mine said,

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Speaker 1: you know what I've got. I have a house outside

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Speaker 1: the country and we're going to be there this summer.

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Speaker 1: Just come stay with us as long as you want.

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Speaker 1: I took my daughter when we fled the country. That's

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Speaker 1: how scared I was. I just I packed everything up

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Speaker 1: and we fled the country and we were gone for

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Speaker 1: a couple of months. I was just hoping it's something

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Speaker 1: like he might show himself in some way that somebody,

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Speaker 1: local law enforcement could catch him, anybody could catch him.

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Speaker 1: But that was not the case. So when I came

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Speaker 1: back to work, I hired me security. So in fear,

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Speaker 1: she flees the country with her daughter, her only child,

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Speaker 1: after threats that the two of them would be raped

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Speaker 1: and disemboweled. Threatening to disembowel a little girl in front

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Speaker 1: of her mother, They dismember they flee the country. Listen.

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Speaker 1: At one point, Eva and Kaya even moved out of

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Speaker 1: the country fearing for their lives, But soon after moving back,

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Speaker 1: even with a hidden address, another letter arrived. I am

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Speaker 1: going to take my revenge upon you and your daughter.

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Speaker 1: There will be no place on this earth that I

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Speaker 1: can't find you. The stalk or then located and started

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Speaker 1: calling Kaya's school, leaving horrifying messages. Can you imagine not

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Speaker 1: only are you being stalked, but your little girl also

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Speaker 1: being stalked. Listen to Kaya. It was intimidation and fear

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Speaker 1: and psychological and emotional terrorism on a whole different level.

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Speaker 1: What were your earliest memories. Something had happened where our

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Speaker 1: address was leaked and we were actually in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the night packing up all our things, and then

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Speaker 1: I remember being so young, just being like really settling

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Speaker 1: the effects of what it is to you know, not

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Speaker 1: only have a mom in the spotlight, but also have

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Speaker 1: someone emotionally terrorizing you. I'm just trying to understand how

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Speaker 1: did your address get leaked? Eva? Well, at the time,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of a whole other story. But

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Speaker 1: because we had, you know, we had a gate gate

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Speaker 1: and hedge issue in and I had to I was

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Speaker 1: at the city at getting a variant for these things,

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Speaker 1: and the city leaked by address on the online camp

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Speaker 1: you know, on their online court camera. Um, they said

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Speaker 1: my address on the online court camera, and immediately it

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Speaker 1: was out and um. And then even the news cameras

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Speaker 1: came like a couple of days later saying you see

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Speaker 1: that you have a you know, you're trying to get

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Speaker 1: a variance with I was like, how is that news?

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Speaker 1: But you all just found my address and within about

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Speaker 1: a week the letters started coming directly to my house.

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Speaker 1: So he must have been watching every single thing about you. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he was. Well, we didn't know who he was, but

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Speaker 1: he was on our social media. Um, Steve and Steve

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Speaker 1: both found him, you know, following us, UM, following Kay

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Speaker 1: and I both on Instagram, UM, and me on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: And so he was he was following everybody. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, now, um, both Steve and I were sitting

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Speaker 1: at lunch the other day and you know, he just

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Speaker 1: put in my name and add past addresses came up.

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Speaker 1: Thank god my current address didn't come up in there.

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Speaker 1: But because I had to start, but I had to

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Speaker 1: move obviously overnight and I bought my next house in

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Speaker 1: an LLFC. It's not registered to me. So and then

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Speaker 1: even so seven years later he found that address and

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Speaker 1: I had to buy my next house in Stephen Kramer,

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Speaker 1: former FBI in Daga solicious. How did he keep finding her?

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Speaker 1: That's a very good question. We don't know. I think

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Speaker 1: he was just diligent on the internet, diligent following Eva,

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Speaker 1: and eventually, you know, he would get lucky that he'd

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Speaker 1: tracked down, for instance, Kaia's high school. She was at

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Speaker 1: a private high school, and he somehow managed to find that,

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Speaker 1: either to social media or other means. We aren't exactly

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Speaker 1: sure how he did it, but that was also part

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Speaker 1: of you know, the concern is, yeah, he's mailing these

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Speaker 1: letters from we believe Ohio, that's where some of them

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Speaker 1: are postmarked. But he could be in Los Angeles. He

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Speaker 1: could be following her around. We did not know that.

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Speaker 1: So those were some of the major concerns that we

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Speaker 1: had about trying to identify this guy. Apprhanded. Yeah, between

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Speaker 1: that and the threat of disembowelment or rape and dismemberment,

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Speaker 1: you the two Steves, I have your hands full. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go to Scott Johnson forensic psychologists joining us.

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Speaker 1: But Scott, I want you to hear this. You heard

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Speaker 1: earlier where the stock would actually call this. He tracked

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Speaker 1: down the school where he was daughter attended. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to my senior year when I was called into

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Speaker 1: my front office. Your dad says he's going to pick

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Speaker 1: you up. Yeah, stand out in front of the school. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So then I was like, I text my dad was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing here? And he was like, no,

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Speaker 1: I never called the school and I'm not here. And

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Speaker 1: it just clicked and I went, oh my god, it's

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Speaker 1: my stalker. You are hearing EMA's daughter talk about an

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Speaker 1: attempt to kidnap her Farmers school posing as her dad.

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Speaker 1: And we all know that if the kidnapped her game

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Speaker 1: get close enough to the child to speak through the window.

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Speaker 1: It's a hot skip at a jump to grab the

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Speaker 1: child anyway. You can get them by the arm, the clothes,

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Speaker 1: the neck, the collar, and yanked them into the car.

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Speaker 1: It's all over in less than thirty seconds. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to more of what Eva's door Kaya says. That's

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Speaker 1: horriing a little bit. It's it's twenty fifteen now, you're you're,

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Speaker 1: you're thirteen, the letters started being in particular address to you.

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Speaker 1: I have such severe anxiety even now to this day,

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Speaker 1: because for me, it was just so paralyzing to go

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Speaker 1: to school and to not know, you know, if I

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Speaker 1: was going to get picked up, or if I was

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Speaker 1: going to come home one day and my mom was

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Speaker 1: just going to be found dead on the floor. You know.

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Speaker 1: Um Eva LaRue Emmy Award winning actress speaking out to

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Speaker 1: all stalking victims right now. The fact that my daughter says, Mom, Mom,

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Speaker 1: I love you, You're You're my world. The fact that

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Speaker 1: Kai had to worry about coming in and finding you dead.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine? No? I cannot. Yeah. And she said

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Speaker 1: that she has started having those fears at about six

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Speaker 1: years old. That she said, you know, she had the

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Speaker 1: fear of her coming home her backpack and her holding

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Speaker 1: her a little, you know, lunch pail and coming in.

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Speaker 1: She said she always was afraid opening the door, like

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Speaker 1: was she going to come in and find her mother,

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Speaker 1: you know, dead on the floor like that. That was

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Speaker 1: a fear of hers for her whole life. She literally

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Speaker 1: she deals with anxiety constantly, just trying to take that in.

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Speaker 1: I mean every once in a while. I mean, but

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Speaker 1: that kind of trauma changes your brain chemistry. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: you're right. My daughter will have dreams. Just go mom,

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Speaker 1: Mama dreams. Something happened to you. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: like that thing you love the most, your fear, that

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Speaker 1: will be taken away, and now the letters start coming

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Speaker 1: to your daughter. How did you get through that? Emotionally?

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Speaker 1: It really is psychological emotional terrorism on a whole different level.

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Speaker 1: It just it just is when you're constantly in fear,

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Speaker 1: it really changes everything about who you are and how

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Speaker 1: you operate. How did you hook up with the two

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Speaker 1: Steve Stephen Bush and Stephen Kramer, both former FBI also

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Speaker 1: president and CEO of Indago Solutions. How did you hook

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Speaker 1: up with them? Ema? Well, Steve Kramer and Steve Bush

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Speaker 1: are absolutely, just for the record, absolutely my heroes. They

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Speaker 1: are angels walking on earth like they when it when

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Speaker 1: the motto Protect and Serve is brought up. They are

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Speaker 1: the paradigm of that. Because for twelve years I had

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Speaker 1: I had one FBI contact agent who was in charge

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Speaker 1: of my case, and he was lovely and he was

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Speaker 1: every years we would get together and he would tell

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Speaker 1: me any upstates on the case. But up until then,

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Speaker 1: if someone's not in Kodis, there's just nothing they could do.

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Speaker 1: There's no way to identify this person. And with ironic

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Speaker 1: is being on CSI Miami, everybody was in Kodis, right,

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Speaker 1: we always got our guy, every person, everybody who was

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Speaker 1: a bad guy vodis. We'd got a hit. In forty

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Speaker 1: three minutes, the case is solved. Well, in reality, not

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Speaker 1: everybody's in Kodis. Eighty plus percent of the people were

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Speaker 1: in quotas are already in jail, and the other percentage

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Speaker 1: of them are people who are are John Doe's because

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Speaker 1: they're in there from rape, chitch or murder, you know,

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Speaker 1: or crime scenes, but they don't they don't have a

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Speaker 1: name yet. Right, So cut to Kaya's senior year, and

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Speaker 1: all of the confluence of all these things just happened

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Speaker 1: at once where he found Kaya's school. I believe he

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Speaker 1: found her via Instagram. She posted something or one of

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Speaker 1: her friends posted a picture with her in it, and

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Speaker 1: then you can see the school banner in the background.

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Speaker 1: Oh exactly. All you have to do is go down

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Speaker 1: a little wormhole on somebody's Instagram, and even if they

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Speaker 1: don't have any information in their photos, or on their

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Speaker 1: photo page. You can just you can go down a

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Speaker 1: wormhole seeing who tagged her in other pictures and go

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Speaker 1: to a friend to their instagram, for instance, like if

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Speaker 1: I don't put my location, and you see a picture

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Speaker 1: of Jackie and myself and I don't reveal anything, but

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Speaker 1: then you see Jackie's name, then you go to Jackie's

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Speaker 1: Instagram and man, exactly there it is. You say, you

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Speaker 1: know Westwood High School or whatever in the background, and

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Speaker 1: it's all over And that's exactly how he found her.

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Speaker 1: And he called the school pretending to be her dad

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Speaker 1: and told the administrator at the school to tell her

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Speaker 1: in class, your dad's get stand outside in front of

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Speaker 1: the school and to pick you up after school. And

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Speaker 1: then she texted me right away and she said, mom, dad.

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Speaker 1: You know her dad at the time. He since passed away, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: but her dad lived in Palm Desert two and a

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Speaker 1: half hours away, and he and I were great friends.

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Speaker 1: There's no way he was going to come to down

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Speaker 1: and not tell me that he's going to come to

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Speaker 1: her up from school. No. In act, she's a senior

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Speaker 1: in high school. She drove herself to school. She doesn't

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Speaker 1: need to be picked up from school. So she immediately says, Mom,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, it is dad in town. That just

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00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: sounds really fishy. And so I called her dad and

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Speaker 1: her dad was like, no, I'm not in town. So

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Speaker 1: I raced to the school and I said, I'm picking

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Speaker 1: my kid up from school. You know, in all her

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Speaker 1: whole life, I've had to tell every school she went

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00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: to visit the issue, please be on the lookout, she

405
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Speaker 1: has a stalker. But we never had a reason to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, worried until that point. And so the school was,

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Speaker 1: you know, thought, oh, well, this is going to be

408
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 1: a misunderstanding. I'm sure it's not a big deal. I

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Speaker 1: bet they did, because they were about to send her

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Speaker 1: outside to have her dad pick her up exactly. She

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Speaker 1: could have been missing immediately, immediately, immediately. It's so fast,

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Speaker 1: and you think, oh, I can't be dragged into a car.

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Speaker 1: Yes you can. You can, even an adult, a female,

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Speaker 1: especially one, grab if they're strong enough, kid get you

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Speaker 1: right in. They don't even have to. They don't even

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Speaker 1: have to use physical forces. If he had a gun,

417
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 1: had a knife, whatever he could he could have, you know,

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Speaker 1: just made her get in the car. For if you're

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Speaker 1: getting shot or step up. What was going through your mind, Eva,

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Speaker 1: when you're racing to the school. Oh my god, I

421
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: thought he's at the school. He's stock in the school,

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00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: he's near this's he's got his eye, he's there, he's

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Speaker 1: somewhere around the school. Because now he knows where she is.

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Speaker 1: Now he knows where she is every day. So I

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Speaker 1: raced in the school, I pick her up. I call

426
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: the FBI and I find out that that my point

427
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: person had been promoted to another another department, and they

428
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: tell me your new agents that are in charge of

429
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: your case, we'll call you in the morning. I'm like,

430
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: I'm telling you one heaven. I like, yeah, I need

431
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: to talk to somebody right this. Please don't make me

432
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: trash the FEBEs because I'm getting really close to it.

433
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: Scott Johnson joining me Forensic psychologists joining us out in Minnesota,

434
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: thirty two years specializing in sex predators. Author of physical

435
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: Abusers and sex Offenders. You can find Scott Johnson at

436
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: Forensic Consultation dot org. Scott Johnson, I mean what kind

437
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: of I mean I don't agree with, but I get

438
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: I love you, I want to marry you. You've got

439
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: to divorce your husband and marry me. He's all wrong

440
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: for you. That kind of letter versus I'm going to

441
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: disembowel your daughter after I raper in front of your eyes,

442
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: that's a whole nother thing. Scott Johnson. Right, So you're

443
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 1: dealing with someone who's a psychopath and obviously a sadistic

444
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: cyclopath because he's getting off on the fear he's instilling.

445
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: But the most dangerous part of this is these are

446
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: iguas of sessions, and for twelve plus years he's been

447
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: following and acting on his obsession and so to instill

448
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: fear in paranoia is part of what he gets out

449
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: of this as a thrill, and so that's the power

450
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: play for him. He's a psychopath. Now, when you say psychopath,

451
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: for those of us that are not educated psychologists like yourself,

452
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: I'm just a JD. What do you mean by that? Well,

453
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: he has an abnormal brain. Okay, limited fear, limited remorse, anxiety,

454
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: things like that. But he has a need to hurt

455
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 1: people and he gets off on terrorizing people. When you

456
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: say get off to umane, he enjoys it, He laughs

457
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: about it, he relives it, or he actually sexually masturbates

458
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: to it. For this particular offender probably all of the

459
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 1: above because he's tied so strongly specific sex acts that

460
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: he wants to do in with the mutilation and everything else.

461
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: So to him, it's just one big power play. And

462
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: the sad part is, and you know, not to try

463
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: to make this sound you know who whoa? It's it

464
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: is a who whoa issue because he probably won't stop

465
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: until he is either a locked up permanently or be

466
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: he successfully does what he wants to do. And so

467
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: this is one person you left out. We kill him

468
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: and that's what he wants to do, is to kidnap, rape, this,

469
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: embowel and you know, kill And unfortunately, someone like this,

470
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: he's not going to stop until he can do that

471
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: because that's what he lives for. And the proof of

472
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: that is twelve years of specific obsessive behavior, twelve years.

473
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: Because I was trying to figure out Scott Johnson, and

474
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: I learned this about five years into prosecuting violent felonies

475
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: in inner city Atlanta. I would always wonder why why.

476
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: One day I was sitting in the courtroom looking over

477
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: at the defendant I was trying. Jury wasn't there, and

478
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: I thought, why, ask why why do I care? Why?

479
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: I will never prove why. All I need to know

480
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: is who did this thing? And how do I stop him?

481
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: But I am wondering why right now? What gratification would

482
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 1: he get out of just sending letters and threatening her

483
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: and scaring her and her daughter. Well, and that's the

484
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: interesting part because that's where many stalkers stops. They might

485
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: send some letters, a couple of phone calls. But he's

486
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: persisted with this, which means he's really invested. He's got

487
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: his you know, his whole life right now of obsessions

488
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: is around him. Unfortunately, these these two victims and alcohol

489
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: him victims. Eva LaRue is with us. You're hearing the

490
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: voice of Scott Johnson, forensic psychologists joining us out of Minnesota.

491
00:29:46,600 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: You can find it at Forensic Consultation dot org. Oh

492
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: time Stories with Nancy Grace, Eva LaRue. I'm just trying

493
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: to stain in your shoes for a moment. Every time

494
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: I knew letter would come, how defeated, exhausted, afraid would

495
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: you be? I mean, you could have a perfectly wonderful

496
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: day and then you see the letter and you know

497
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: immediately what it is. I knew the writing, I would

498
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: have been able to identify the writing from across the street.

499
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: Like I remember the two times that I opened the

500
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: mailbox and he had found my address, my actual home address,

501
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: and pulled the mail out in the mailbox, and and

502
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: literally it felt like I had somebody had teased me.

503
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: That's that. It felt like it was like an electrical

504
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: shock through your system. That's like, oh my god, he

505
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: found the house. Oh my god, we're out, we have

506
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: to move. Did you ever saying they would bay and

507
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: end in SI after twelve I really didn't. And then

508
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: in that moment when they told me that my FBI agent,

509
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: who had known everything about the case had left the case. Yeah,

510
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: I got a phone call the next morning from my

511
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: new FBI agents and charged the case. And that was

512
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: that was Steve Bush. And overnight that night when he

513
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: had been at the stalker had been acting like he

514
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: was her father, and the school was the school was

515
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: not efficiently freaked out like I wanted them to be.

516
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: And but overnight right he called the school and he

517
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: left a message on the answering machine at the school

518
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: detailing all the things he had detailed in the letters.

519
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: So by the time they got to school, the administration

520
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: got to school in the morning, they were appropriate, completely free,

521
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: And it took that to make them realize how much

522
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: they screwed up. They were about to send your daughter

523
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: out for a stalk or a grammar. Yeah, they were

524
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: now that that actually wasn't their their fault because they

525
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: when they first got the phone call, they had no

526
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: idea that it was anybody other than death. But when

527
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: we ran to the office and said, oh my god,

528
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: this is the stalker, wait a minute, shouldn't there be

529
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: some kind of verification even because I mean, anybody can

530
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,479
Speaker 1: call go I'm your dad, ever her outside and grammar

531
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: and be gone exactly. Oh okay, guys, you earlier heard

532
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: Eva LaRue, Emmy Award winning actress. I just can't say

533
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 1: it enough. She has been the start of so many hits.

534
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: You would know her name or her face anywhere. But

535
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: it's not just her. Her daughter's been dragged into this.

536
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: You heard her mention her two heroes. Okay, so far

537
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: we haven't been able to get a DNA match. We've

538
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: got his DNA off the stamps, off the ladders, but

539
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 1: there's nothing to match it too, Joining US forensic psychologist

540
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: Scott Josh Stephen Kramer Stephen Bush, when did you believe

541
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: you had a break in the case. So it's important

542
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: to understand a real brief timeline, Nancy of kind of

543
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: how we got to that point. Steve Kramer and Paul

544
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: Holes had already led the team in twenty eighteen. That's

545
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: solved the Golden State killer case. I can imagine the

546
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: phone start ringing off the hook at the FBI. Everybody

547
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: wants to solve their case. If they have DNA of

548
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: an unknown suspect, they want to solve the case. And

549
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: so Steve and I form a program at the bureau

550
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: to start doing this, and that leads us into early

551
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, when a very astute supervisor at the FBI

552
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: assigned me full time to do this. He transfers me

553
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: up to the Los Angeles office. I arrive at my

554
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: new desk and I find a binder, a three ring

555
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: chief government binder that on the outside side of it

556
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: it says evil LaRue threat letters and it has an

557
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: FBI case number. And I'm a curious guy, I'm an investigator.

558
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 1: I open up this binder and I start reading these letters.

559
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: That's when I first learned about the case. That's when

560
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: I first realized this is a horrible, horrible thing that

561
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: has happened to this innocent woman and her daughter. The

562
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: next question I have is do we have adequate DNA.

563
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: We call the FBI laboratory. We figure out that there's

564
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: DNA all up and down this case, and that's when

565
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: we knew Nancy. Once we have suspect DNA, Steve and

566
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: I are confident that we can solve these cases. And

567
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: we have to. We had to take that DNA and

568
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: send it to a private laboratory to get the profile.

569
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: It's different than the codus profile, the profile that you

570
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 1: need to do genealogy. And at that point we know

571
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: we've got a lead to start working on to find

572
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: a solution to this case. And what was the profile?

573
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: So the profile is called a it's called a SNIP profile.

574
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: It's an acronym that stands for single nucleotide polymorphism. It's

575
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: the same as the profile you get if you send

576
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: your saliva to ancestry dot com or twenty three and me.

577
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: And what that profile does is when we take in

578
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: and we upload it to public databases. It doesn't tell

579
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 1: us who the bad guy is, but it tells us

580
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: who his relatives are. And by relatives, I mean people

581
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: who share genetic code with when people who share DNA

582
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: with him, and it could be very small amounts, a

583
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: half a percent, a quarter of a percent, but from

584
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: those folks, we are able to reverse engineer and triangulate

585
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: a family tree to determine the source of that DNA,

586
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: which in this case was the suspect. And then you

587
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 1: start looking to see who resembles that DNA that's in town. Guys,

588
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: take a listen again to our friends at Access. What

589
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: they didn't know is at the exact same time, two

590
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: former FBI agents were using new DNA technology that led

591
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: them straight to Eva and kayas stalker, and they were

592
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: on their way to arrest him. They literally went out

593
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: the next day. They've got to go and stay him out,

594
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: wait for him to throw out something that has DNA

595
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: on it, and it was an Arby's cup and they

596
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: got the DNA off the arty straw. It's amazing. Okay,

597
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: you were just hearing Stephen Bush talking from in Dago's Solutions.

598
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: Former FBI special Agent Stephen Kramer, a former FBI attorney

599
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: present in Dago Solutions, tell me about that moment. I

600
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: remember it really well. Steve Bush and myself were actually

601
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: doing a genealogy, and that was sitting on our computers

602
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: building these family trees, as Steve Bush mentioned, trying to

603
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: figure out all the relatives who could be a person

604
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: that was sending these letters. We were actually doing it

605
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: on a Saturday afternoon at home, and as we came

606
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: across the family and we narrowed it down, we found

607
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: an individual who actually lived in Ohio. He looked good agewise.

608
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: We obviously didn't know what do you look like. It's

609
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: not a five year old boy or a ninety year

610
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: old man, so he's in the pot of suspects. I

611
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: got you exactly exactly. So we started looking at a

612
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: little more carefully. We started scrubbing some of the social media,

613
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: going to Leva's Instagram, Facebook accounts and seeing, you know,

614
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: the people that followed her, and we were able to

615
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: determine that this person that we were looking at was

616
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: actually following her also of one of the many thousands

617
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: of people on her social media. So that was like

618
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: the big break. That's when Steve and I looked at

619
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: each other kind of gave each other the high five

620
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: that this is our guy, okay, who followed him into Arby's.

621
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: That would have been part Steve, you want to take that? Yeah,

622
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: so they're actually the way. This is one of the

623
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: nice things about working at the FBI is when you

624
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: have a suspect that lives out of state, you got

625
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: a field officer. Yeah, you call, you call that field

626
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: office and say, hey, Ohio, can you guys help us out.

627
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: I will never be able to look at Arby's the

628
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: same way again thinking about the case. Guys, it's been

629
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: a horror story so far. But is there a happy

630
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: ending it? Take a listen to our cut nine friends

631
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 1: out of NBC four in Ohio man he's been sentenced

632
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: to prison in Los Angeles and for admitting that he

633
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: harassed a TV actress and her daughter for more than

634
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: a decade. Fifty eight year old James Rogers of Heath

635
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 1: was sentenced to forty months in prison. Rogers admitted to stocking,

636
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: threatening and harassing actress Eva LaRue for twelve years straight

637
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: out to Eva LaRue. The guys in jail for forty months.

638
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: I think we could have done a little bit better,

639
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: but I praised God. He's in jail. We know where

640
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: he is. Reaction, Yeah, I am disappointed that he didn't

641
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: get the minimum. The minimum on this case was forty

642
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: six months and the maximum was fifty seven months for

643
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: twelve years of being stoked. He only got three years.

644
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: I don't know how somebody can take twelve years of

645
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: your safety and mental health and only get three years.

646
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: But but at least he got something. I mean, there's

647
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: always I mean, you know, Nancy, there's always the possibility

648
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 1: that they get nothing, Yes, that they only get probation.

649
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: You know, he's been identified, he's behind bars, and how

650
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: are you going to prepare for when he gets out? Eva? Well,

651
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: that's the thing too. And I have to say, I'm

652
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 1: so grateful to the US Attorney's office for even taking

653
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: the case, because you know, the US attorneys have piles

654
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: and piles and piles of cases that are not going

655
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 1: to get adjudicated. And I don't even know what would

656
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: have happened had they not taken the case. You know what, Eva,

657
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: you are so right, he would still be free in Stocking. Yeah,

658
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: I just gotta ask Stephen Kramer or Stephen Bush, who

659
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: is this guy, James David Rogers h fifty eight? What

660
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: is his story? You know, it's crazy, Nanthy. He was

661
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,760
Speaker 1: he was a certified nurse's aid. He was a CNA

662
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: that worked at an old folks home, a senior living

663
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: facility in Ohio. He had no prior criminal history that

664
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: we were aware of. He lived with his elderly mom

665
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: in her small place in Ohio, and so he had

666
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: no previous from history. He was not a guy that

667
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,720
Speaker 1: was on our radar screen. And he had my wife

668
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: and children, a girlfriend, and nothing not that we were

669
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: aware of knowing. So he literally is the lonely white

670
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: guy living in his mom's basement. Profilers all over the

671
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 1: country are skipping up and down the hall right now

672
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: because they were right. You know the fact that he

673
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: is a psychopath and he's been under the you know,

674
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: he's managed to avoid being on the radar. And I

675
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: want to interject this one piece that you know that

676
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: may affect supervision and everything else, is he knows how

677
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: to work the system. And you know, he's a victim.

678
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: He's got this, this, or he's got nothing except psychopath

679
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 1: for a problem. And so but he'll apologized, but they're

680
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: empty apologies because he loves to do what he does

681
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: and you know, liking the stamps and things. I would

682
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: think actually problem wasn't the mistake many most psychopaths don't

683
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: care forly evidence because they want to see if people

684
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: are too dmdumb to pick up on it, which, of

685
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: course Steven Steve picked up on that. And I mean this,

686
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: I just doesn't care until the job this sent well,

687
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 1: all I can say right now is for this moment,

688
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 1: Eva LaRue and her daughter can breathe easy. But because

689
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: of his light sentence, they got to gear up and

690
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: pronto for when this guy, James David Rogers walks free.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing up Goodbye friend,